IS Omni-mechs...A dead end?

[IndyRI]

Caseless ammunition is an excellent concept, but has been plagued with little issues, combined with the fact it would mean a gradual overhaul of the entire supply chain. It's one of those ideas that is almost too great to be useful.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I heard there were overheating issues as well.

[IndyRI]

And issues of exploding un-fired rounds. It's one of those ideas that's awesome in concept, and by now is pretty awesome in practice, but like Metric in the states, traditional jacketed rounds are just too well established.

[Drop Bear]

And how H&K was treating the propriety nature of the Tech, the US was talking about adopting the weapon or a derivative their of, you could only field strip the sucker down so far, after that US Army Armours weren't allowed to look in the Magic Box, it had to go back to Germany for even low level maintenance (by H&K or West German Army Weapon Techs with the appropriate clearance) and H&K where not going to licence the Ammo production to their US arm let alone anyone else, that kind of killed the deal before the Tech issues started to pop up.

But that's enough Thread drift from me since I can't recall the XM- series of ceaseless Firearms that DARPA was working on (Pistol, Carbine, AR & Light Support Weapon).

[Arkansas Warrior]

There is a great deal of concrete evidence otherwise.

Such as?

[Istal_Devalis]

So...Somethings we know from comments on the stuff in the Dark Age is that OmniMechs were part of the "signature aesthetic" of the Nova Cats. It was implied that most other groups had stpped making OmniMechs, in fact, the Novas we saw were supposedly no-longer OmniMechs.

You're reading to much into a half remembered paragraph.  The exact quote (and you dont know HOW hard it was to find a copy of it) follows.

Before concepting and sculpting a new faction, an internal style guide is first generated. MechWarrior Digital Studio Manager Vic Bonilla reviews source materials here in the office and then generates a style guide based in part on those findings as well as input from the game designer and other sculptors. From the style guide comes what are referred to as the key elements of a faction. The key elements of Clan Nova Cat are:

Mystical elements. *snip*

OmniMech technology. In part because of their affinity for OmniMechs (BattleMechs with interchangeable parts), Nova Cat units have an overall look and feel to them.

Neo-Gothic Elements. *snip*

No where in there does it hint that the Nova Cats are the only ones still producing Omnis.  At worse, it implies that the Nova Cats might have a higher ratio of Omnis to Non Omnis then other factions.

As is, there's plenty of evidence of Omni use into the DAs. 
Karhu Omnis are mentioned being used by the Ghost Bears. (It's where we first spotted it)
There's the Mad Cat IV and Vulture IV, both new Omnis. 
From Tammi Miller's FP dossier "Vultures were a common sight among the invading Clans, particularly in the Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar armies, and remain so even today."
From Noel Hurtato's dossier: "Because of its significance to its touman, the Falcon made a point of adding production lines for the Thor to its Sudeten BattleMech factories, ensuring the continued deployment of this machine even after home world ties were severed."  This line was later mentioned in Master's and Minions. 
Multiple Vulture and Summoner dossiers list parts (Olivetti T4 Endo-steel, Bergan Version 8.3 Endo Steel) made in IS located Clan facilities. While circumstantial (it could also just be signs of a standardised refit), this could be used to show newer Omnis produced from that facility. 

[Klat]

An interesting tidbit from XTRO: Marik I had forgotten about is in the text for the LFA-1X Pandarus. Kali Yama is at least entertaining the idea of a new OmniMech if funding can found. I can hope can't I?

[Minemech]

 Another interesting tidbit, there are other Free Worlds League designed and fielded omnis [insert edit]If you read TRO 3067[/edit] besides the Perseus, they just aren't fielded in significant numbers.

[Onisuzume]

Another interesting tidbit, there are other Free Worlds League designed and fielded omnis besides the Perseus, they just aren't fielded in significant numbers.

Not significant enough to warrent a mention of them, indeed.
Also, what Free Worlds League? ;)

[Moonsword]

Another interesting tidbit, there are other Free Worlds League designed and fielded omnis besides the Perseus, they just aren't fielded in significant numbers.

Judging from the evidence in the book, they aren't fielded at all.  The only Omnis mentioned in the book are the shelved Pandarus Omni program, the Shiva (which is not news to anyone since, oh, TRO3067), and the rejected proposal of a stealth OmniFighter that again is not even remotely implied to be deployed at that point in time.

If you're talking about something from somewhere else, name it.

[Stormfury]

Such as?

Masters and Minions, TRs '75, '85, and '85 Supplemental, just to start.

[Minemech]

Judging from the evidence in the book, they aren't fielded at all.  The only Omnis mentioned in the book are the shelved Pandarus Omni program, the Shiva (which is not news to anyone since, oh, TRO3067), and the rejected proposal of a stealth OmniFighter that again is not even remotely implied to be deployed at that point in time.

If you're talking about something from somewhere else, name it.

Read Technical Readout: 3067 under the overview of the Perseus. This part is hard to miss.
EDIT: The same entry seems to appear word for word in the Field Manual: Free Worlds League.

[Moonsword]

Next time, give a source with your 'tidbit'.  At least two people clearly thought you were talking about XTRO:Marik based on the context, giving both of them the impression you were pulling this out of thin air.

The relevant quote for those of you following this at home:

The LCCC has authorized several programs to create League-designed and manufactured OmniMechs. To date, however, only one model—the P1 Perseus—has entered service with the FWLM in any significant numbers.

It's an interesting throwaway line but at this point, that's about all it is.

[Alexander Knight]

Read Technical Readout: 3067 under the overview of the Perseus. This part is hard to miss.
EDIT: The same entry seems to appear word for word in the Field Manual: Free Worlds League.

It means nothing.  The only Omni-capable units designed by the FWL at this time are the Shiva and Perseus.  That's it.  Nothing else.  To speculate further would be like stating that the Capellan Confederation has XL-engined high-tech Thrush fighters because of a similar line in TRO 3050U  (here's a hint.  They don't)

[Minemech]

Next time, give a source with your 'tidbit'.  At least two people clearly thought you were talking about XTRO:Marik based on the context, giving both of them the impression you were pulling this out of thin air.

I did not mean to do that, I will edit the post so I do not give future people the wrong impression and get them to buy a product that lacks such an item. Since your quote will already show the minor error, I won't worry about the rest.

The relevant quote for those of you following this at home:

It's an interesting throwaway line but at this point, that's about all it is.

Thats your take, I see it another way.

[Minemech]

It means nothing.  The only Omni-capable units designed by the FWL at this time are the Shiva and Perseus.  That's it.  Nothing else.  To speculate further would be like stating that the Capellan Confederation has XL-engined high-tech Thrush fighters because of a similar line in TRO 3050U  (here's a hint.  They don't)

You should add to your statement "Which we have the stats for, or names of" instead of making an inaccurate blanket statement. We already have been told such mechs exist in 2 books, I am sticking to canon over your speculation.

[Alexander Knight]

You should add to your statement "Which we have the stats for, or names of" instead of making an inaccurate blanket statement. We already have been told such mechs exist in 2 books, I am sticking to canon over your speculation.

I am not speculating.

[Minemech]

I am not speculating.

Canon sources say they field them, your saying they don't so since your not speculating, may I ask you to name the source? Perhaps I did jump the gun and that has been overruled.

[Alexander Knight]

Canon sources say they field them, your saying they don't so since your not speculating, may I ask you to name the source? Perhaps I did jump the gun and that has been overruled.

Incorrect.  Canon sources say that only one design has been fielded in significant numbers.  That does not mean that there are other designs that have been fielded in insignificant numbers.  You are aware that I'm part of the Master Unit List team, right?

[Kit deSummersville]

You are aware that I'm part of the Master Unit List team, right?

They're just a myth.
 :)

[Alexander Knight]

They're just a myth.
 :)

There's a 20-25% chance of that being true.

[Kit deSummersville]

There's a 20-25% chance of that being true.

15-20%.

[Hellraiser]

This is why the Avatar, Sunder, and Hauptmann are such useful platforms - their crits are basically wide open overall.  The real "winners" for screwed up crits on an IS Omni are the Templar and Perseus.

Why the Templar hate ?
I would think the BlackJack would be seen as a worse set up for crits.

[Lord Harlock]

Okay as much as I like to argue, let's go from a different angle.  I think that the more logical concept would be to list of known surviving factories that have produced omni vehicles, fighters, and mechs pre-jihad and their sources. Also include any facilities that got those abilities after the jihad.

Like so:

Crofton- Starcorps Manteuffel (TRO 3067). Possibly, the First Gen Kurita Omnimechs under license. (TRO 3067)

That way, we can all see how many facilities can still produce omni weapons.

[Minemech]

Incorrect.  Canon sources say that only one design has been fielded in significant numbers.  That does not mean that there are other designs that have been fielded in insignificant numbers.

 So why didn't they stop after the "Entered service" part. It would have been a perfectly fine sentence. The "Significant numbers" part is crucial since the first half of the overview already established the context. I am guessing its a lot easier to ignore it when writing out the list(simplification leads to efficiency, and your not psychic), but its there. It can be overturned if ruled so, or a later canon source says otherwise.

You are aware that I'm part of the Master Unit List team, right?

so? Are you giving us errata?

[Moonsword]

Why the Templar hate ?
I would think the BlackJack would be seen as a worse set up for crits.

A) The Blackjack is worse from a strict number available perspective but it's not trying to wedge 40 tons of equipment into them, either.
B) Part of that setup is the sinks that it can't push into the engine, something the Templar doesn't have to deal with.  (That's one of the places the Templar's design is much better, in fact, by exploiting the engine size.)
C) It's also not a second generation Omni - it's the example the people designing the Perseus and Templar should have (and didn't) learn from.
D) Most importantly, I didn't think of it at the time I wrote that because it doesn't stick out in my mind as much in terms of aggravation (see A and B).

[Alexander Knight]

So why didn't they stop after the "Entered service" part. It would have been a perfectly fine sentence. The "Significant numbers" part is crucial since the first half of the overview already established the context. I am guessing its a lot easier to ignore it when writing out the list(simplification leads to efficiency, and your not psychic), but its there. It can be overturned if ruled so, or a later canon source says otherwise.

For the same reason TRO 3039 talks about XL-engined Thrushes, and other TRO entries talk about variants that never existed.

so? Are you giving us errata?

What errata?  The MUL has entries for units that most people have never heard of, and don't have stats.  It does not have entries for any mythical Marik Omni units aside from the aforementioned Perseus and Shiva.  Accept that I know more about this than you do.

[Minemech]

For the same reason TRO 3039 talks about XL-engined Thrushes, and other TRO entries talk about variants that never existed.

What errata?  The MUL has entries for units that most people have never heard of, and don't have stats.  It does not have entries for any mythical Marik Omni units aside from the aforementioned Perseus and Shiva.  Accept that I know more about this than you do.

Sounds more like they just did not do any followup. Since asymmetric information is hurting me as far as I am aware, and I will accept your veracity (Because if I don't, this discussion is pointless), then I am stuck with dealing with the fact that unreleased canon information overrules the Readout's proper English interpretation.

[Alexander Knight]

Sounds more like they just did not do any followup. Since asymmetric information is hurting me as far as I am aware, and I will accept your veracity (Because if I don't, this discussion is pointless), then I am stuck with dealing with the fact that unreleased canon information overrules the Readout's proper English interpretation.

Because of course that single vague interpretation must mean the the FWL has several different home-built Omni designs.

[Klat]

As to the question of newer technologies in IS OmniMech production; How do you think the Celestials compare to other IS OmniMechs of the same or similar weight?

For example the Avatar versus the Deva; both are 70 tons but (IMHO) drastically different. I like the Deva's toughness but hate the small cockpit and endo-steel. Which do you consider better? Are the technologies used in the Deva (and other Celestials) worth it?