So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?

[tomaddamz]

It has been decreed that the Taurian Concordant does not build the Rommel, the question to me is logically "what are they building? 

The question I pose is that the engineering ability to clone the Rommel exists within the Concordant without question, as do all equivalent technologies and industrial components.

The question I pose then are;
1)  Why or why not would the Concordant build the Rommel ?

2)   If not the Rommel, what would the concordant build that "may" be mistaken for the Rommel

edited for a "slight" formatting error, sorry :), and a really clumsy sentence.

[Charlie Tango]

You know, there is an Ask The Writers section just for these kinds of questions...

[tomaddamz]

It is more of a doctrinal/conjectural question;  is the Rommel a good fit, or should there be something more suited to local needs/wants/capabilities of the military industrial base? 

I mean, as a Taurian, maybe we should be happy we don't have the Rommel; or maybe we should start a program to build something like it, maybe something else entirely.

That is more the question I am provoking ( at least that is what I am hoping for, in a civilized manner)

[Stormfury]

Vehicle-wise?

Hunter, Sherpa Armoured Truck (Vandenburg Mechanised Industries, Vandenburg)
Plainsman (Pinard Protectorates Ltd, Pinard)
J. Edgar, Fulcrum (Alphard Trading Corporation/Pinard Protectorates Ltd, Perdition)

For reasons why not, as stated in the other thread, the Rommel/Patton was a new-built, fusion-powered vehicle from the other side human-occupied space. It was a pretty big deal even for the Lyrans to be designing a vehicle like that, let alone having it be copied elsewhere, not just in the Concordat.

Aside from the technological issues, there is the issue of legalities to consider. Although theoretically anyone can just tell companies where to go and what to do when they get there if they object to the construction of their designs by other powers, this is very definitely not the norm in BT. The Concordat was already exceptional in its manufacture of other war machines without the appropriate liscensure to do so.

As to whether it's a good fit... maybe, maybe not. The Taurian Concordat lacks the DropShip and JumpShip assets necessary to be an effective offensive force, so a high-tech machine with one A/C-20 is not really something I would put a premium on. If it were me, I would either go with established alternatives (Bulldog, Hetzer, etc) or try to put the Demolisher into production. Another viable alternative would be something like the Axel (Rommel ICE clone) or, preferably, the design of a new 75-ton 3/5 MBT with an ICE and an armament based around the A/C-10 suitable for both city fighting and general engagements.

Just to quickly throw it together, Engine (20), Internal Structure (7.5) Control Systems (4), Armour (12), A/C-10 with 2 tons of ammo (14), 2 LRM-10s with 2 tons of ammo (12), 4 Machine Guns with 1 ton of ammo (3), and a turret capable of holding the A/C-10, LRMs, and 2 MGs would be a solid counter to other heavy tanks of the Succession Wars era, if a little slower. There's even room to make a city-fighting variant that swaps the LRMs for SRM-6s and a 4-ton Infantry compartment if you want a dedicated urban brawler. Later on, you can upgrade it with an LB-10X, Ferro-Fibrous, and Artemis. Pretty solid machine, IMO.

[Liam's Ghost]

If I were to throw one together, I'd go for the Manticore the Magistracy was building at the time and enlarge it to seventy tons so it can use the same fusion plant as the domestically produced Archers and Warhammers.

The most probable reason why not would seem to me to be that if the Taurians were going to go for domestic production of a fusion powered "main battle tank" the obvious option is the Manticore, which is a proven design with plans and examples readily available from two close by sources, while the Rommel is (at the time of its first sighting) an unproven design with no war record that isn't really anything but an urban assault vehicle with no anti infantry weapon, and it's sole manufacturer is hundreds of light years away.

That the Taurians don't build it or anything like it is apparently a deliberate choice. Either because they can meet their needs for heavy tanks through imports, or because a strong heavy tank force doesn't fit into their battle strategy.

That the Taurians were believed to have it has been explained in detail.

[Taurianspy]

Moving forward on the Rommel then.

Strom argues that it was the Fusion engine that was advanced and the vehicle should not have a fusion engine.

I put forth that the advancement was actually the surrond targeting system.

I argue the point that fusion engines were stripped from Taurian vehicles with the point that the j edgar, and hunter had fusion engines as well as many of the purchased vehicles from outside of the TC.  If the scarsity of the fusion engine was a problem, the TC would not have the fusion engine powered vehicles in their TO&E's.

Moving forward, if the Rommel/Patton is not available, we need to address what would have been available.  I would love to support a AC/20 on Heavy LRM Carrier frame, but I resist that notion only because the Inner Sphere would cry foul.  But, I do believe that with the acceptance of the Lighting Aerospace fighter, a similiar vehicle would be a Manticore with an AC/20.   Canon pursuades variants, but you need to consider that TechniCorp does not own the factories in the Periphery.  Most of the Periphery factories are owned by the Periphery States and the servicing agreements that exclude variants does not apply.

[Liam's Ghost]

The fluff for the "pattommel" makes it pretty clear that it wasn't the fusion engine itself that make the tanks unique, it was the shear numbers the Lyrans wanted. This dun't apply in the case of the Taurians. The TDF ain't that big.

There's a big question of exactly what the Taurians needed a large urban assault vehicle for. What exactly does the Rommel do that the Taurians need it anyway? If the role never comes up, there's no real need for a substitute.

[Liam's Ghost]

(I don't think designs are supposed to go in these boards)

But what does it do that the Taurians need it to do?

[Stormfury]

Strom argues that it was the Fusion engine that was advanced and the vehicle should not have a fusion engine.

I put forth that the advancement was actually the surrond targeting system.

It is the Magna 260 fusion engine that sets the Rommel/Patton apart from the ICE powered vehicles usually deployed by the armies of the Inner Sphere. The fusion engine also proved to be the biggest stumbling block the Lyrans had to overcome before the tank could be manufactured in the numbers required. The supply of fusion engines was limited, and and what was being produced was earmarked for BattleMechs and AeroSpace Fighters.

The entry then goes on to state that the Free Rasalhague Republic was unable to source enough fusion engines to field the design, even though they had excellent trade relations with two nations mass-producing the Magna 260.

The 145 and 175 engines on the J. Edgar and Hunter are not as in-demand, and are produced at factories established specifically to manufacture those machines. The Lyrans had issues getting enough Magna 260s together to field the Rommel/Patton, and they are the manufacturing powerhouse of the Inner Sphere.

The vehicles that were stripped of their fusion engines suffered that fate to keep 'Mechs operational. The 145 and 175-rated engines are not used on any other known design for the Succession Wars period. The Hunter and J. Edgar are also on the rare side of things, due to the technology required to produce them and keep them in the field.

But what does it do that the Taurians need it to do?

Indeed. It loses two tons of armour and the PPC to mount the A/C-20. How badly do you need the A/C-20? The Hetzer can already provide similar endurance and the same mobility (if you can put up with wheels and no turret) and you can get four for the same price as a modified Manticore. The Demolisher does the same job even better, and is still cheaper on a per-unit basis.

[Marveryn]

since the taurian are expecting a Davion invasion at any moment.. what they need it to do was to stop a mech force long enough for ther mechs to get organize and counter attack.. so yes they did need Heavy Tanks in there garrison forces.  AC/20 is an excellent weapon for city fighting and the lrm help when it it isn't int he city.

[Liam's Ghost]

in fairness to the rommel, the Taurians do already build the 260 engine for their Thunderbolts...

[Liam's Ghost]

since the taurian are expecting a Davion invasion at any moment.. what they need it to do was to stop a mech force long enough for ther mechs to get organize and counter attack.. so yes they did need Heavy Tanks in there garrison forces.  AC/20 is an excellent weapon for city fighting and the lrm help when it it isn't int he city.

There's a significant degree of evidence that regardless of the feelings of the loud few, not many members of the Taurian command staff expected a Davion invasion.

[Taurianspy]

The fluff for the "pattommel" makes it pretty clear that it wasn't the fusion engine itself that make the tanks unique, it was the shear numbers the Lyrans wanted. This dun't apply in the case of the Taurians. The TDF ain't that big.

There's a big question of exactly what the Taurians needed a large urban assault vehicle for. What exactly does the Rommel do that the Taurians need it anyway? If the role never comes up, there's no real need for a substitute.

The need is a main battle tank that is of Taurian manufacturer.  It is not a need of an urban fighter, but the need for a vehicle with mixed range profile, reasonable speed and the ability to go where a hovercraft cannot.  The AC/20 is an impliment of Taurian projection that says you may kill me, but if I get ahold of you, you will die. 

[Liam's Ghost]

The need is a main battle tank that is of Taurian manufacturer.  It is not a need of an urban fighter, but the need for a vehicle with mixed range profile, reasonable speed and the ability to go where a hovercraft cannot.  The AC/20 is an impliment of Taurian projection that says you may kill me, but if I get ahold of you, you will die. 

And is there any particular need for domestic main battle tank production? The Concordat hasn't fought a major war in 500 years, and the greater portion of its society knows it. The Intelligence Service has decayed to nothing with no enemy to track, the Military gets annoyed when held in place to protect against phantom invaders when they could be out dealing with pirates, the civilians are annoyed at the conscription...

Also, an LRM 10 isn't much to give it a classification of "a mix of ranges". This really isn't a multi-role platform you're showing off. It does one thing and one thing only.

[Taurianspy]

In comparison to the available equipment that the TC has, this design is multi-role.  Anything and everything that is not of Taurian make, leaves your military dependant on someone elses ability to supply the vehicles.  It goes against a military doctrine of self sufficiency.  I really don't see a big issue why a main battle tank isn't available in house.  The MoC actually has two 60 tonners and they do not have the industrial base that the TC does.  You can argue the point that the MoC also does not have the mech production that the TC does, but the MoC doesn't export them to the extent that the TC does either.

[Stormfury]

Also, an LRM 10 isn't much to give it a classification of "a mix of ranges". This really isn't a multi-role platform you're showing off. It does one thing and one thing only.

Well, tacking an LRM-10 on does seem to be a popular technique for vehicles looking to claim that distinction (Drillson, Von Luckner, etc.).

But it's a big loss on the Manticore. That PPC is the big gun, and without it the LRM-10 at range is not going to do much.

There's a reason I went the A/C-10 and LRM-10 combination; respectable range and good hitting power. The heavier tanks you're likely to see in the era are the Vedette, Bulldog, and Manticore, with increasing levels of rarity and supported by Demolishers. Though 3/5 is slower than all but the Demolisher, damage at range is equal or superior to each, and the armour can outlast all of them. For defensive purposes, and as the basis for the TDF's tank units, such a design would be quite handy.

Even the Great Houses of the Succession Wars would be happy to have such a machine.

I really don't see a big issue why a main battle tank isn't available in house.

An MBT, no. Even I don't have a problem with them starting one up in that period. But butchering a Manticore just to get an A/C-20 on your primary tank seems more than a little counter-productive, especially given the tech base for such a design is not there and the price you pay in armour and general combat utility to carry it.

You can argue the point that the MoC also does not have the mech production that the TC does, but the MoC doesn't export them to the extent that the TC does either.

The Concordat was not much of an exporter prior to the Clan Invasion, when mercs found themselves without their usual suppliers and needing to make up the shortfall.

[Liam's Ghost]

In comparison to the available equipment that the TC has, this design is multi-role.  Anything and everything that is not of Taurian make, leaves your military dependant on someone elses ability to supply the vehicles.  It goes against a military doctrine of self sufficiency.  I really don't see a big issue why a main battle tank isn't available in house.  The MoC actually has two 60 tonners and they do not have the industrial base that the TC does.  You can argue the point that the MoC also does not have the mech production that the TC does, but the MoC doesn't export them to the extent that the TC does either.

In comparison to all the heavy battlemechs?

Different classes of combat platforms don't exist in a vacuum. It's not an unreasonable position to take that a heavy tank, especially one so canted towards one type of fighting, isn't doing anything that existing heavy platforms (in this case battlemechs) are already doing quite well. Ultimately, there's nothing a tracked vehicle can really do that a battlemech can't do better, except get built in large numbers, and the TDF has production lines for a bunch of quite capable heavy mechs. A heavy tank doing what their heavy mechs can already do but not as well?

The Canopeans, on the other hand, don't have the near the same mech production capabilities as the Taurian Concordat, or near the same heftiness among the mechs they produce. Manticores make a much simpler alternative to bulking up their battlemech production.  It gets a platform into the field to provide heavy firepower and staying power to the bug mechs and shadow hawks that are filling out the MAF.

So again, what does a heavy tank do for the TDF that it can't already do?

[Medron Pryde]

I see only two options based on the canon information we have for what the Taurians build.

1) The Taurian Concordat builds the Rommel as almost all canon sources say.  I have hard copies of Periphery First and Objective Raids that say this, as well as digital copies for reference on my laptop, and my digital HB:MPS supports this.  The printed HB:MPS is the only source I have seen that questions the production.

2) The Taurian Concordat builds something that is close enough to the Rommel, ala the Rasalhague Axel, that when ComStar researchers saw it they THOUGHT it was a Rommel.

I have thought of nothing outside those two possibilities that makes sense.

As for the question about what a heavy tank does that a 'Mech cannot?  Well, EVERY Taurian planet has a planetary vehicle and infantry force defending it.  Not every planet has a dedicated federal 'Mech battalion.  I would expect a good heavy main battletank lance to be the command force for any planet they are on, designed to get the attention of the enemy while J. Edgars and Plainsman hit them in the rear, while Hunters and LRM carriers fire missiles from cover, and flanked by a screen of Vedettes.

Now the question of AC10 versus AC20 is an interesting one.  I've often thought that the Patton would have been a better main tank than the Rommel because of the increased "jousting range" of the AC10.  It doesn't make the enemy scream in terror like the AC20, but you could certainly strap on better LRMs and more armor very easily with the AC10, giving you much better mid and long range firepower.  But the Taurians already build Vedettes and Hunters for that.  Perhaps the AC20 for short range "Kill 'em all" IS best for what the Taurians need considering what they HAVE already.  :)

[Stormfury]

1) The Taurian Concordat builds the Rommel as almost all canon sources say.  I have hard copies of Periphery First and Objective Raids that say this, as well as digital copies for reference on my laptop, and my digital HB:MPS supports this.  The printed HB:MPS is the only source I have seen that questions the production.

I have put the question to the authors. We shall see what they have to say.

2) The Taurian Concordat builds something that is close enough to the Rommel, ala the Rasalhague Axel, that when ComStar researchers saw it they THOUGHT it was a Rommel.

No such vehicle exists in any source, and per p. 80 of TR: 3039:

Richard's Panzer Brigade, like Hansen's Roughriders, was granted access to the Rommel/Patton. Later, nearly a company of troops left the mercenary command when Richard "Big Daddy" Whitman died. Those troops ultimately wound up in the Taurian Concordat, where the appearance of their Lyran-built equipment sparked wild rumours that the Concordat was building the new Hatchetman 'Mech as well as the Rommel tank.

[Maelwys]

I dunno, my copy of MPS states that "Contrary to popular wisdom, the Rommel has never been produced on Perdition, though rumors have plagued the PPL for years. The decision of Katherine Steiner-Davion to export the design in the wake of the Lyran Alliance's formation has only entrenched these rumors."

[Medron Pryde]

Yes, that is what my print version of book says.

Either something changed between the fact check stage and the final production stage, or something was errated back AFTER the final production stage.  It is not the first time I have seen the digital copy not matching the print copy.  TRO 3067 has some fairly interesting differences between print and digital for instance.  ;)

[Ruger]

(I don't think designs are supposed to go in these boards)

But what does it do that the Taurians need it to do?

They do not. Visit the Combat Vehicle Design board in the Fan forums for the design that was previously posted here.

Reminder to everyone PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR OWN CREATIONS OUTSIDE THE FAN FORUMS!

Thank you,

Ruger

[Ruger]

Yes, that is what my print version of book says.

Either something changed between the fact check stage and the final production stage, or something was errated back AFTER the final production stage.  It is not the first time I have seen the digital copy not matching the print copy.  TRO 3067 has some fairly interesting differences between print and digital for instance.  ;)

However, my electronic copy of MPS also has this reference on page 119 (129 of the PDF). Both my print and electronic copy of TRO 3039 have this statement.

It seems clear that the Taurian Concordant does not build the Rommel.

Ruger

[Baldur Mekorig]

 Its a shame the TC did not bult Patton/Rommel tanks, but Manticores are a great substitute for 3025. During the Trinity Alliance the Po would be also a good model. If the OWA got it, why not the TC?

[Taurianspy]

Baldur,

per the Periphery all listing in Combat Operations, the TC can use the Po.

Liam,

A large reason there has not been a push for a main battle tank built in house is because the TC previously had the Rommel in that designation.  The Rommel has been an intrigal part of any TC vehicle force composition.  It's the primary tank that the TC player builds their force around.  The TC player doesn't start building their vehicle force by choosing how many Light SRM Carriers they have, they start by choosing how many Rommel's they are going to use.  Even if a lighter force is eventually decided on and the player chooses to use no Rommels, the Rommel decision was made prior to choosing any other equipment.

You stated that you believed the TC had the ability to build a main battletank, but chose not to.  Until the re-release of TRO 3039, although rumors ran rampant, the Rommel issue was still up in the air.  Without an official retcon, the Rommel maintained its position as the TC main battle tank.   In addition, the canon that stated the retcon remained in obscurity because the publication that the Retcon was listed in failed to proliferate.  The Historical War of 3039 I only purchased because it was 12 bucks on clearance.  I still do not own the TRO:  3039 because it is a rehash of publications that I already have.  As for the Ask the writers forum, many of the people reading the forums don not use that forum.

[Charlie Tango]

  As for the Ask the writers forum, many of the people reading the forums don not use that forum.

Which is too bad, because using it to ask official questions,  you get official answers to questions on point instead of people trying to rely on half-remembered canon, speculation, interpretation of what lines in canon books mean when they are read upside down on Tuesdays, or personal preference about how the Universe ought to be.  :P

[JadeHellbringer]

Which is too bad, because using it to ask official questions,  you get official answers to questions on point instead of people trying to rely on half-remembered canon, speculation, interpretation of what lines in canon books mean when they are read upside down on Tuesdays, or personal preference about how the Universe ought to be.  :P

Isn't that what people come here for though? Heresay, rumor, fabrication, and faction-belittling?

Now I don't know what we're here for.  ::)

[ColBosch]

Actually, folks, check p. 143 of Handbook: Major Periphery States. It does have the Rommel in production on Alpheratz. It's just not produced on Perdition.

It's not something I like much, but barring directives from above to change it, them's canon.

[Ruger]

Actually, folks, check p. 143 of Handbook: Major Periphery States. It does have the Rommel in production on Alpheratz. It's just not produced on Perdition.

It's not something I like much, but barring directives from above to change it, them's canon.

Of course, the text also indicates that the tanks are a relatively recent addition to their production lines.

Still, this would mean it's in production in the Outworlds Alliance, but there is still no production (at least confirmed production) in the Taurian Concordant of that tank.

Ruger

[Kit deSummersville]

Isn't that what people come here for though? Heresay, rumor, fabrication, and faction-belittling?

Now I don't know what we're here for.  ::)

Please sir, can I have some more?