AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?

[Weirdo]

No.

Ground units shooting at fighters: Range equals altitude*2, plus distance to the fighter's hex if you're not directly attacked.

Fighters shooting at ground units: Range equals short. That simple.

[Sami Jumppanen]

No.

Ground units shooting at fighters: Range equals altitude*2, plus distance to the fighter's hex if you're not directly attacked.

Fighters shooting at ground units: Range equals short. That simple.

Well, i quess those light fighters with MLs and SLs have some chances then...

[Weirdo]

Very much so. Those smaller planes with clusters of lasers are handy for shooting 'mechs in the back or tanks in the sides. Just remember that the secret to keeping them alive is not their speed, it's your ability to send them after isolated targets so less units can shoot back.

They're also about the only units I'll voluntarily perform a strafe with, since their multiple guns means good odds for getting motive crits on the sides of tanks or for hitting multiple suits of BA, which are the only targets I'll strafe. These smaller birds are also cheap enough that their inevitable loss* doesn't hurt me too bad.

*said loss being the reason I'll otherwise never strafe.

[Goose]

Fighters shooting at ground units: Range equals short. That simple.

I wouldn't even phrase it that way.

If the gun has enough reach to be used at all (and I suddenly can't find that rule), the target number is Gunnery plus target movement and terrain, plus four for strafing. Or two for the other types. "Target terrain" means it's hex, and none other. And there's this note about how prone and partial partial cover never apply… Which in turn means a little less skill is required to get hits on anybody wading across a creak.

[Goose]

They're also about the only units I'll voluntarily perform a strafe with, since their multiple guns means good odds for getting motive crits on the sides of tanks or for hitting multiple suits of BA, which are the only targets I'll strafe.

[achieves enlightenment]

[Hellraiser]

For the life of me, I can't find the rules describing the bonuses given to lower caliber autocannons against air units such as VTOLs and aerospace fighters.  If anyone can point me in the right direction with a book and page number, I would be very appreciative.

LB-X's are better, Cluster ammo adds another -1 and longer range

As already mentioned in the Era your looking for FLAK ammo is the AA option for you.

LBX's are "sometimes" better.
Cluster has a -1 to hit, and longer range as stated.
BUT, it also hits in 1 point blocks.  Which are extremely likely to not cause any threshold.
Also, sometimes certain aircraft are so thin skinned that you really WANT that 5 or 10 point hit to just core them.

I recently smiled as an LB10X plastered me w/ pellets thinking at worst I'll take motive damage and be far away the next turn.  Only to have the concentrated LPL damage core me through the rear and left my vtol a flaming wreck.

Point being, there are advantages to both methods.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Very much so. Those smaller planes with clusters of lasers are handy for shooting 'mechs in the back or tanks in the sides. Just remember that the secret to keeping them alive is not their speed, it's your ability to send them after isolated targets so less units can shoot back.

They're also about the only units I'll voluntarily perform a strafe with, since their multiple guns means good odds for getting motive crits on the sides of tanks or for hitting multiple suits of BA, which are the only targets I'll strafe. These smaller birds are also cheap enough that their inevitable loss* doesn't hurt me too bad.

*said loss being the reason I'll otherwise never strafe.

Ok. That sounds pretty balanced.

[Kit deSummersville]

I wouldn't even phrase it that way.

If the gun has enough reach to be used at all (and I suddenly can't find that rule), the target number is Gunnery plus target movement and terrain, plus four for strafing. Or two for the other types. "Target terrain" means it's hex, and none other. And there's this note about how prone and partial partial cover never apply… Which in turn means a little less skill is required to get hits on anybody wading across a creak.

But sometimes you need a range, for example HAGs cluster hit rolls are modified by range bracket.

[Weirdo]

You've got a range: Short.

If the gun has enough reach to be used at all (and I suddenly can't find that rule)

If it's not a melee weapon, it has enough reach. That's the extent of it.

[MadCapellan]

To clarify, it'd be 4 + 10 (5*2) = 14. The +3 for velocity would get added to the to-hit calculations, not to the range. I also don't think it's a flat +1 per point of velocity, but I use the standard AA rules so I could be wrong.

It is indeed +1 per velocity, and it's one of the most broken parts of the Aerospace rules around.  I threw the velocity mod out long ago.  It's hard enough to hit a striking Aerospace Fighter between the range, +2 for firing at anything but the nose or aft, etc, etc.  When you can control where you strike, there's no need to make it even harder for ground units to return fire.  Players in our campaign still love Aerospace and use it regularly, but it cannot strike the board with impugnity.

[Weirdo]

Yeah, that's what I like about the standard AA rules. Fighters are very powerful, but you have to be smart with them. You slip up, and it's VERY easy for the ground-pounders to make you pay.

[MadCapellan]

Yeah, that's what I like about the standard AA rules. Fighters are very powerful, but you have to be smart with them. You slip up, and it's VERY easy for the ground-pounders to make you pay.

What I don't like about the standard rules is the very arbitrary assignment of the fighter to hex 0909.  Measuring the range to anywhere on the flight line works just fine, and really doesn't make the fighters any more vulnerable - in fact, if the fighter pilot is smart and picks targets along the edge of an enemy force, they're actually safer from return fire.

[Weirdo]

...which is why I always use the Aero Units on the Ground Map. I've hardly ever used the 0909 stuff.

[MadCapellan]

...which is why I always use the Aero Units on the Ground Map. I've hardly ever used the 0909 stuff.

You must have a pretty big play area then!   :)

[Weirdo]

4' by 8' maps with 2" hexes.

On the other hand, it's perfectly feasible to keep fighters on paper map setups as small as 2*2. Conventionals need more room, but ASFs have no problems at all.

[Goose]

But sometimes you need a range, for example HAGs cluster hit rolls are modified by range bracket.

Point, but not that often.

You've got a range: Short.

If it's not a melee weapon, it has enough reach. That's the extent of it.

… And for the other guns on the unit?

Add in the range mods last.

[Weirdo]

And for the other guns on the unit?

Add in the range mods last.

You can add the modifier for short range anytime you like, really. Adding zero to an addition equation doesn't really mess with order of operations.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Has anyone used those lance special abilities? I was wondering if that AA-speciality might have an adverse effect on game balance?

[Weirdo]

Doubt it. Air-to-ground tactics center around finding isolated units that can't be supported by buddies, and doing things to them that are illegal in 38 states. AA-specialty lances would simply fall under the category of buddies to avoid, even more so than most ground concentrations.

And if your enemy doesn't have any units far from the protection of AA forces...then they're doing AA right. At this point you must either call off the airstrikes, go in anyway and accept the cost in downed aircraft, or call in ground artillery on that juicy concentration of forces.

[Kit deSummersville]

If it's not a melee weapon, it has enough reach.

So you're saying we don't have a rule to allow a 'mech to jump up and hatchet an ASF flying nape of the earth? I think Paul needs another crotch-kick....

 ;)

[Weirdo]

Only if said rules allows for the fact that such a difference in velocities should mean that any successful attack causes the attacker's arm and attached side torso to be ripped off. O:-)

Feel free to kick Paul regardless, of course. ;)

[GOTHIK]

Measuring the range to anywhere on the flight line works just fine...

For some reason, I was under the impression that when using the Aerospace Units on Ground Maps rules, unless the attacking ground unit was DIRECTLY in the ASF's flight path (or 1 adjacent hex to either side) you measure the range from the attacking ground unit to the ASF's ending hex ... is that incorrect?

[Kit deSummersville]

Only if said rules allows for the fact that such a difference in velocities should mean that any successful attack causes the attacker's arm and attached side torso to be ripped off. O:-)

But the fighter should suffer an equally-brutal impact. Equal and opposite forces and all of that....

[Weirdo]

For some reason, I was under the impression that when using the Aerospace Units on Ground Maps rules, unless the attacking ground unit was DIRECTLY in the ASF's flight path (or 1 adjacent hex to either side) you measure the range from the attacking ground unit to the ASF's ending hex ... is that incorrect?

Partially correct. You always measure to the aircraft's ending hex, unless you or your hex were directly attacked by the aircraft. If it simply overflies you, you target the ending hex.

[theothersarah]

So you're saying we don't have a rule to allow a 'mech to jump up and hatchet an ASF flying nape of the earth? I think Paul needs another crotch-kick....

 ;)

Until I read the ground units in space rules, I saw the U omni variants with hatchets and hoped they were meant for playing baseball with Aeros. I was sad when I found out that it just provides a boarding bonus.

[GOTHIK]

Partially correct. You always measure to the aircraft's ending hex, unless you or your hex were directly attacked by the aircraft. If it simply overflies you, you target the ending hex.

gotcha!  thanks.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Partially correct. You always measure to the aircraft's ending hex, unless you or your hex were directly attacked by the aircraft. If it simply overflies you, you target the ending hex.

A while ago i asked about those heat seeking LRMs and i got the picture that it was possible to pick a hex along the line of the attack. This would propably make them more usefull, but i quess not...

[MadCapellan]

For some reason, I was under the impression that when using the Aerospace Units on Ground Maps rules, unless the attacking ground unit was DIRECTLY in the ASF's flight path (or 1 adjacent hex to either side) you measure the range from the attacking ground unit to the ASF's ending hex ... is that incorrect?

What I'm explaining is that my house rules use the first half of the advanced rules from TacOps, but throws out the silly +1 per hex of velocity nonsense.  I don't play Aerospace units on Ground Maps.  Despite what Wierdo says, I think on a 2 x 2, an Aerospace Fighter is going to find itself extremely hamstrung in it's ability to maneuver, which is quite silly.

[Goose]

I don't think he said it was easy …  ;)

[Weirdo]

I should have. All it takes is powered turns, the occasional split-S, and a willingness to fly at velocity 1.