AC free tonne of ammo

[beyond.wudge]

Anyone ever try out that rule where the AC comes with a free tonne of ammo or two but it blows up like an ammo bin if it gets hit? I'm just curious.

[Orin J.]

eggh, the extra ammo doesn't seem like a fair tradeoff to adding a possibly LARGE number of "go boom" crits to me. i mean, have you looked at the number of crits for a class 20? yeah, you burn through them fast if you get into range, but it's still a much more serious concern all of a sudden when you've got pretty much a whole location set to blow.

[MadCapellan]

Yeah, that many explosive crits sounds like an absolute disaster.  No thanks.

[evilauthor]

eggh, the extra ammo doesn't seem like a fair tradeoff to adding a possibly LARGE number of "go boom" crits to me. i mean, have you looked at the number of crits for a class 20? yeah, you burn through them fast if you get into range, but it's still a much more serious concern all of a sudden when you've got pretty much a whole location set to blow.

Might work for the vanilla AC/2 though. OTOH, I find it hard to justify spending just the six tons for an AC/2 even before factoring in ammo.

[Marwynn]

You could rule it that you need to destroy all the crits of an AC for the free ammo to get hit. Or at least, get hit twice.

[evilauthor]

You could rule it that you need to destroy all the crits of an AC for the free ammo to get hit. Or at least, get hit twice.

Or, simply designate one of the weapon crits as holding the ammo.

[beyond.wudge]

That is a interesting idea Evilauthor.

Hmmm, I'm curious as to why people find the explosive crits thing such a downside. On 10s and 20s you will run through that long before you often will take the hit (10s especially). Special munitions like Precision ammo and AP ammo do wonders to speed this emptying up. Case can also contain the explosion.

The RT and LT also only get critted by normal TACs on the left and right back hexes which aren't supremely common places to get hit in the first five turns of combat for anything but fast light/meds. Well, at least in my experience.

Is the Gauss explosion effect something people see as a real downside as well?

[blackjack]

Never heard of the rule but I'd play it in a heart beat. Wheres the rule at? Makes the enforcer a bit nicer to run.   

[evilauthor]

Never heard of the rule but I'd play it in a heart beat. Wheres the rule at? Makes the enforcer a bit nicer to run.

There isn't any AFAIK. I made it up to keep the chances of an ammo explosion reasonable.

If implemented in the game, you'd probably have the weapon simply be one ton and crit less and a complete ammo bin slotted in to take the place of the deleted mass and crit... since that's what designating a crit on a weapon as holding ammo essentially means.

[A. Lurker]

That is a interesting idea Evilauthor.

Hmmm, I'm curious as to why people find the explosive crits thing such a downside. On 10s and 20s you will run through that long before you often will take the hit (10s especially). Special munitions like Precision ammo and AP ammo do wonders to speed this emptying up. Case can also contain the explosion.

The RT and LT also only get critted by normal TACs on the left and right back hexes which aren't supremely common places to get hit in the first five turns of combat for anything but fast light/meds. Well, at least in my experience.

Is the Gauss explosion effect something people see as a real downside as well?

First, a lot of people seem to play with floating crits, which means that relying on TACs only ever hitting the torso -- or the CT in particular -- just doesn't work for them. Second, ten shots of ammo actually can take a while to burn through (and so can five if you need to get into range first); not everybody automatically loads precision ammo first thing in the morning.

And third, ammo explosions of any size are a pretty big deal in part because of those pesky two pilot hits that come with each, which can turn even a 'Mech that can soak the raw damage without flinching into an opportunity for some quick target practice. (Most ammo explosions are also big enough to force a PSR for 20+ damage all by themselves, which with a pilot just knocked out by the shock translates into an automatic third point of damage from the fall.) That's in fact arguably the main disadvantage of most Gauss weaponry -- they may not discharge for enough damage to actually kill the 'Mech, especially if CASE comes into play, but that really helps only if the pilot doesn't then get brain-fried or at least knocked for a loop for long enough for the enemy to helpfully make up the difference on their own.

Also, while Gauss guns may explode, their ammunition at least doesn't. Having an explosive weapon and explosive ammo is kind of the worst of both worlds.

[garhkal]

I would not mind it..  might make those heavy AC-5s and 2s worth it.

[Orin J.]

Might work for the vanilla AC/2 though. OTOH, I find it hard to justify spending just the six tons for an AC/2 even before factoring in ammo.

y'know, thinking a bit more....as a rules change to normal autocannons i don't like it, but as an alternate "winchester" autocannon class (one ton of ammo in the cannon, cannot access non-integral ammo bays, crits cause remaining ammo explosion on a failed check) i can see a place for them......

Hmmm, I'm curious as to why people find the explosive crits thing such a downside.

because it's very possible for a whole ton of ammunition lighting off to core a 'mech and kill the pilot, which is equally terrible in both pick-up games and campaigns. it's pretty rare to have an ammo bay explode and effectively take the 'mech out of the fight.

[/quote]
Is the Gauss explosion effect something people see as a real downside as well?
[/quote]

Gauss rifles only explode for one shot's worth of damage, or around 20. a full ammo bin tends to explode for 100 or more. having your Gauss get nailed is a big problem, but it's something you can probably ride out. having a ton of ammo go up usually means you are now short an entire battlemech.  #P

[evilauthor]

Gauss rifles only explode for one shot's worth of damage, or around 20. a full ammo bin tends to explode for 100 or more. having your Gauss get nailed is a big problem, but it's something you can probably ride out. having a ton of ammo go up usually means you are now short an entire battlemech.  #P

To make matters worse, since an ammo explosion is an INTERNAL explosion, it gets applied to internal structure first. Even a 100 ton mech only 31 IS points in its CT, 21 IS points in its side torsos and legs, and 17 in its arms. Since the side torsos and arms are the most common places to put ammo, they'll be instantly destroyed by almost every ammo bin that still has two shots in them. And the only reason it's not EVERY bin is because a) some ammo isn't explosive, and b) some weapons have shot sizes too weak to instantly destroy a section, but those same weak weapons are the ones most likely to retain lots and LOTS of unused ammo simply because they can't be emptied fast enough.

A half full AC bin will do around 50 points of damage in an internal explosion, and ACs have the LEAST damage per ton of any ammo in the game. LRMs get 120 damage per ton. SRMs get 200 (barring the oddly small SRM-6 which "only" gets 180).

And of course, it doesn't stop there. Damage transfer rules means that any excess damage left over from destroying a section transfers inward, unless you have CASE. And Inner Sphere CASE (and most people here seem to play Inner Sphere) only stops damage from transferring from the side torso to the center torso, NOT from a limb to a torso location.

So on a 100 ton mech, say you suffer a 50 point ammo explosion in the arm. 17 damage goes to destroying the arm. The other 33 points is applied to the corresponding side torso, which only has 21 internal structure points. That leaves another 11 points to transfer into the CT unless your 100 tonner is equipped with CASE.

But that's for a 100 tonner. Most mechs are far far less than 100 tons and have correspondingly less Internal Structure to absorb explosions with. The above scenario also doesn't account for other ammo explosions that the first might set off (more pilot hits ahoy!), or the required PSR most ammo explosions will induce.

[Lysenko]

The closest I would come to allowing something like that is to "hot-load" the AC. That is, it has an extra round "in the pipe" already. Same with any other ammo-fed weapon.

[beyond.wudge]

So do you guys tend to run with case much? Or ammunition weapons in general?

Are autocannons (of any class) common in your games?

[Sartris]

So do you guys tend to run with case much? Or ammunition weapons in general?

Are autocannons (of any class) common in your games?

It depends.  If I'm making customs with XL engines and ammo just to fool around in a pickup game, I save the weight for something else.  If it's campaign, CASE is really important.  Even if an ammo explosion knocks out the XL, you can still repair the machine.  CASE on something with an SFE means the difference between a lost unit and something that can fight on.

I see a lot of autocannons.  The LB10x is a fantastic weapon.  I've found some utility in the ultra AC/5 as well.

[Orin J.]

So do you guys tend to run with case much? Or ammunition weapons in general?

Are autocannons (of any class) common in your games?

if i'm playing, i've almost always got an AC or three on the field somewhere, they're a nice reliable damage dealer that doesn't run up heat.

CASE is....sometimes usually on the field? i mean i like having it, but i really don't worry overmuch over the lack of it. tactics should be saving my forces ideally, not emergency measures.

[A. Lurker]

I use ammo weapons pretty much all the time (I don't generally find pure energy boats very interesting, although I'll use them when the mood for a particular design strikes), and autocannons of all stripes form a definite part of that. That means that I consider CASE pretty much mandatory once available except perhaps on really cheap and expendable units (designers cutting corners? Perish the thought...), and CASE II quite a nice option if I can have it.

[SCC]

Would be good if that was the first ton of ammo you burnt through

On AC-2's and -5's takes too long to burn through the ton while -10's and -20's take too long to get into range
Ultra's are a bit better with their slightly increased range and double fire rate
RAC-5's however are golden, the right mix of range, shot's per ton and ammo consummation

Be good for Vee's, ditch a ton of ammo for CASE (if it doesn't have it) and a half ton armor or something, for older Vee's with the full ton MG ammo just ditch half of that

Interestingly enough field gunner infantry use this rule for ALL their options, even Gauss and Rifles including the HALF ton Magshot and AP Gauss Rifles, that's right they carry twice as much ammo as gun by weight and don't pay any tonnage for it
Note: that free ton if all the ammo field gunners get

[Cowdragon]

Or, simply designate one of the weapon crits as holding the ammo.

This.

and also helps out every sized AC. They are all either directly too heavy (AC/2 AC/5) or the ammo is too heavy (5 shots for an AC/20... that gets cut to only 2 if you go specialty ammo?) This sort of rule makes it all much better. It also could be put easily into place retroactively.

[Scotty]

So do you guys tend to run with case much? Or ammunition weapons in general?

Are autocannons (of any class) common in your games?

Alllll the time.  The only ballistic weapons I don't use very often are standard and Ultra AC/5s and Light/Heavy machine guns.  Just about everything else pops up rather frequently at the table.

Now, that said, in order to make standard autocannons more useful as time goes on, we use house-ruled Extended Range AC ammo.  Basically it just ups the standard AC to the equivalent LBX AC ranges, but still allows for using specialty ammo on the same platform.  The weapons jam on a 2, but can be unjammed just like RACs.  Sometimes to be a bit more forgiving than that, we play with automatic unjams at the end of the next turn.

[Moonsword]

As a reminder, house rules go in the Fan Designs & Rules board.

[Cowdragon]

The closest I would come to allowing something like that is to "hot-load" the AC. That is, it has an extra round "in the pipe" already. Same with any other ammo-fed weapon.

I must say, I like this idea as well. Helps fix lots of issues as well... most notably with AC/20 using specialty ammo. This gives you 3 whole shots! Not for spare tons, but at least that first one gets a boost. Let's face it, even one extra shot with an AC/20 is nice.