Land-Air-Mech Factions and their Tech

[Maingunnery]

I would like to start a discussion about making LAM-based factions and any reasonable custom technology they might use. The precise points that I want to discus are:

1. What type of circumstances could lead or force a group to use LAMs as their main combatant?
2. What kind of improvements to LAM technology can we reasonably expect from such a specialized LAM faction?
3. What kind of custom weapons/equipment would allow LAMs to be competitive but not overpowered?

[CloaknDagger]

I would like to start a discussion about making LAM-based factions and any reasonable custom technology they might use. The precise points that I want to discus are:

1. What type of circumstances could lead or force a group to use LAMs as their main combatant?
2. What kind of improvements to LAM technology can we reasonably expect from such a specialized LAM faction?
3. What kind of custom weapons/equipment would allow LAMs to be competitive but not overpowered?

1. Having a LAM factory and no ASF or Mech factories.
2. Super-Heavy LAMs, lighter LAM equipment, having endo, ferro, and everything else.
3. Custom equipment? Hmm... Super-Large weapons would be kewl. (10 ton ERPPCs, 8 ton lasers, ect...) Or maybe small energy weapons with LOTS of range. EG. 2 ton laser with 18 range.

[Prince of Darkness]

• Recon, especially deep kinds.  A LAMs ability to drop from the atmosphere, drop behind enemy lines, and even leave the planet under its own power.
• The ability to use weight-saving technologies, like XL engines and Endo steel with the only caveat that it has to be "evened out" across the entire chassis (i. e. cant put 7 Endo crits in the left torso without putting 7 in the right.)
• Probably the ability to use bombs in WiGE mode, or rules for external cargo in aerospace-to-ground rules.

[Maingunnery]

2. Super-Heavy LAMs, lighter LAM equipment, having endo, ferro, and everything else.

Something like 5% conversion equipment instead of 10%?

3. Custom equipment? Hmm... Super-Large weapons would be kewl. (10 ton ERPPCs, 8 ton lasers, ect...) Or maybe small energy weapons with LOTS of range. EG. 2 ton laser with 18 range.

LAMs have a severe mass budget, so heavier weapons might be a problem with them.

The ability to use weight-saving technologies, like XL engines and Endo steel with the only caveat that it has to be "evened out" across the entire chassis (i. e. cant put 7 Endo crits in the left torso without putting 7 in the right.)

What about forcing the designer to place 2 crits in every location (except for the head)? Then the user would need to choose between endo and ferro.

Probably the ability to use bombs in WiGE mode, or rules for external cargo in aerospace-to-ground rules.

Good idea with the bombs in WiGE mode, improved bomb bay here we come.



Some of my own ideas:

1.
- Being stranded (no dropships or jumpships) on a planet that has no large land mass, only many mountainous islands. This will make them the only land unit that can go anywhere fast.
- Because of space, budget or resource concerns the faction can only have one factory.

2.
- Increasing the weight limit to 75 tons.
- Making LAMs as thrust efficient as ASFs while in ASF mode (this would save LAMs a lot of tonnage, but not so much that they out-compete ASF).
- Hydrogen scoops that work during cruising speeds.

3.
- Improved bomb-bays (lighter, being available for use in each mode).
- Attachable packs (similar to how Omnimechs have a tonnage bonus for magnetically attached protomechs).

[Sabelkatten]

With WarShips and LAMs you can do away with Jumpships/Dropships almost entirely - LAMs can operate entirely from an orbiting WarShip!

[CloaknDagger]

Something like 5% conversion equipment instead of 10%?

Yes.

LAMs have a severe mass budget, so heavier weapons might be a problem with them.

Yes, but think about it.

ASF take crits by thresholding. So a bigger weapon that does more damage s more likely to score a critical hit. In addition, a bigger weapon with longer range means better modifiers for the medium and short ranges. So more accuracy.

It would be a double win.

Or, you could just have smaller weapons with long range, like a medium laser with large laser range but a bit less damage. ect...

[evilauthor]

Conversion equipment automatically including Partial Wings at no (greater) cost than what the conversion equipment already has. Why? Because the conversion equipment already includes lifting surfaces and the like and this faction's improved version leaves the wings extended out for extra lift. The cooling benefits are simply icing on the cake.

Of course, these benefits vanish when the LAM changes out of mech mode... or DO they?  ^-^

Also, instead of going for "heavier and more powerful", I see this faction's weapon research going towards "smaller and more compact" with an eye towards minimizing or even eliminating performance loss. They'd especially prefer energy weapons for having the best damage to weight ratio, possibly coming up with energy alternatives for functions that are only performed by ammo using weapons among the IS and Clans.

[idea weenie]

I'd go with LAMS getting only a +1 bonus from their engine rather than the +2 that an ASF will get.  This is because a LAM has to hide the exhaust nozzle(s) while as a Mech, while an ASF has dedicated nozzles.

The key is making sure nobody decides to just stay in LAM mode and exploit the higher speeds as defense modifiers all the time.  This could be solved by either making them get WIGE movement, increased vulnerability to critical hits (every shot rolls on the table), or some other mode.

The problem is which weapons would do better in a LAM, but not do as well in a regular Mech or ASF?  If LAMs get additional heat dissipation due to more surface area exposed and higher speeds, then higher heat weapons would be a nice idea.  The speeds of LAMs would allow them to perform strafing runs, so PPC Capacitors would be a nice tech, where they charge up over several turns, then unload a charged shot during the one turn both units can shoot at each other.  Prepped RAC would be a similar, where you spend sufficient time on a prior turn prepping a RAC so it can be fired at speed 6 without jamming.

[evilauthor]

I'd go with LAMS getting only a +1 bonus from their engine rather than the +2 that an ASF will get.  This is because a LAM has to hide the exhaust nozzle(s) while as a Mech, while an ASF has dedicated nozzles.

Er, no they don't. Their exhaust nozzles pull double duty as jump jets when in mech mode... or at least I think they do. Under current rules, their non-mech movements are based directly on their JUMP ability. And they pay greater weight penalties for the engine + conversion equipment + jump jets just to be able to do what ASFs can do with an engine alone.

Which is another thing. A LAM only faction is likely to develop something like Improved Jump Jets to get better mobility out of their LAMs, which would have the side effect of making their mass budgets even MORE acute.

The key is making sure nobody decides to just stay in LAM mode and exploit the higher speeds as defense modifiers all the time.  This could be solved by either making them get WIGE movement, increased vulnerability to critical hits (every shot rolls on the table), or some other mode.

I think WiGE movement for LAM mode is already official.

So is greater crit vulnerability, although I think that's only during turns when it's actually changing modes.

For regular combat while not transforming, I think LAMs are vulnerable to PSR rolls while in flight, and the results of a failed PSR are typically worse than all but the most catastrophic crits. What's more, losing a section or even just all the armor on a section results in LAMs being unable to fly or even transform.

The problem is which weapons would do better in a LAM, but not do as well in a regular Mech or ASF?  If LAMs get additional heat dissipation due to more surface area exposed and higher speeds, then higher heat weapons would be a nice idea.  The speeds of LAMs would allow them to perform strafing runs, so PPC Capacitors would be a nice tech, where they charge up over several turns, then unload a charged shot during the one turn both units can shoot at each other.  Prepped RAC would be a similar, where you spend sufficient time on a prior turn prepping a RAC so it can be fired at speed 6 without jamming.

I don't see how this is a problem. Or at least, not any more of a problem than it already is for mechs and fighters.

...

Another suggestion: If this faction's LAMs are spending less weight on conversion equipment, the obvious compromise is to needing to spend crits on it. And if conversion equipment crits take a hit, the result of course is that the LAM would be unable to transform.

[idea weenie]

For the nozzles, you have to reconfigure them from being all over the Mech to working together when in ASF mode.  Since they are in smaller pieces, this would mean they are less efficient than a dedicated ASF engine.


For the staying in LAM mode, I mean staying in the in-between mode (not Mech or ASF), where their top speed is effectively treated as 3* Jump.  I.e. a 5/8/5 Mech moves 15 in LAM mode, with a corresponding nasty to-be-hit modifier.  A 5/8/8 Mech (due to IJJ) would be moving up to 24 per turn.

That is the main concern of mine.

[evilauthor]

For the nozzles, you have to reconfigure them from being all over the Mech to working together when in ASF mode.  Since they are in smaller pieces, this would mean they are less efficient than a dedicated ASF engine.

The Jump Jets alone are 2.5 tons extra tons beyond what the engine exacts. Double that if you want to try making "Heavy" and low end Assault LAMs. And that's just to duplicate what a fighter does with the engine alone. That's not inefficient?

For the staying in LAM mode, I mean staying in the in-between mode (not Mech or ASF), where their top speed is effectively treated as 3* Jump.  I.e. a 5/8/5 Mech moves 15 in LAM mode, with a corresponding nasty to-be-hit modifier.  A 5/8/8 Mech (due to IJJ) would be moving up to 24 per turn.

That is the main concern of mine.

I thought WiGE movement was supposed to fix that by vastly limiting the LAM's movement options? Besides which, don't TN penalties cap out at +6?

[Stormfury]

The Jump Jets alone are 2.5 tons extra tons beyond what the engine exacts. Double that if you want to try making "Heavy" and low end Assault LAMs. And that's just to duplicate what a fighter does with the engine alone. That's not inefficient?

Compared to what the LAM gets out of it, it's a steal. To whit:

I thought WiGE movement was supposed to fix that by vastly limiting the LAM's movement options? Besides which, don't TN penalties cap out at +6?

LAMs are now able to stay in hybrid mode permanantly, and have either 3*Jump MP as WIGE points or 3*Jump+3 [Partial Wing analogue] Jump MP as WIGE points, I forget which. I also believe they have to mount 2 or 3 Jump Jets no matter what, so even the slowest of LAMs is handily more mobile in every way that counts than standard 'Mechs. Even a 3/5/3 assualt would be capable of WIGE-ing for a base of 9 MP, possibly more if it goes down hill. 4/6/4 or 3/5/5 LAMs are capable of matching and/or exceeding the capabilities of the lightest, most Jump-dedicated standard 'Mechs out there, and can bring a heavier payload while doing so. 5/8/5, 6/9/6 and up get increasingly more ridiculous.

An LAM has an unparallelled ability to dictate engagement range and arc. Even if it decides to allow an opponent to bring weapons to bear upon it (instead of using its superior MP to break LOS, move to an arc that has no weapons that can hit back, or simply take off and try something else) that opponent is going to be looking at a target movement modifier in the 3-6 range the majority of the time, plus range and any intervening terrain.

The only balancing factors with LAMs as they stand is the prohibition against them using XL Engines and other advanced construction materials, along with being limited to 55 tons.

3/5/3, 100-ton LAMs with advanced construction material enable a 'Mech with 9 points of WIGE movement to carry a 39-ton payload even after applying full armour.

Things are tenous enough with "standard" LAM technologies. Opening the door to that? Pass.

As it is, the last time LAM optimisation was discussed things centred around using smaller engines with Improved Jump Jets to free up mass while still moving at speeds that were difficult if not impossible for return fire to be used successfully against them.

Even leaving aside game mechanics, having a small faction that managed to preserve LAM technology and employs it on a wide scale is a heavy enough advantage as it is.

I would allow the use of Endo Steel, Endo-Composite, and the types of armours available to ASFs, as those provide minor advantages. Allowing much more than that moves LAMs from overpowered to being utterly unstoppable.

[Maingunnery]

Stormfury so you say that the Hybrid mode is good as it is, but what about LAMs in ASF-mode vs ASF?

[evilauthor]

Stormfury so you say that the Hybrid mode is good as it is, but what about LAMs in ASF-mode vs ASF?

Even with the +2 movement bonus (which I assumed was for ASF mode only, silly me!), a LAM will be noticeably inferior to an ASF because of the tonnage sucked up by jump jets and conversion equipment.

On the flip side, a LAM will be less vulnerable to crits because of its mech-type construction instead of the fighter's vehicle-like construction. OTOH, this is balanced by the mech-type construction resulting in LAMs having a lower cap on armor points per section.

IOW, for a given movement profile, a LAM will have less armor and weapons than a comparable fighter. Which gets worse if LAMs can't use some of the really big weight savings tech like XL engines and Endosteel.

Edit: If you REALLY want to nerf this LAM faction, simply rule that they have no access to DHS. That'd be a pretty big limiter right there even if they have Heavy and Assault grade LAMs.

[evilauthor]

Okay, XL Engines can't be used on LAMs because any tech that occupies more than one section on a mech (except MAYBE structural ones like Endosteel and advanced armors... maybe) would interfere with the transformation process. So how does the LAM faction take advantage of things like XL engines? Here's how:

Improved XL Engine
Like the original XL Engine, the iXL doubles the crits used by the LAM's fusion engine. Unlike the original, the iXL manages to stuff all the new crits into the CT.

But wait, you say, an iXL Engine can't take up all 12 crits in the CT because you still need crits for the Gyro! Well, the Unnamed LAM Faction came up with a few solutions for that:

Off Center Gyro
The first and "simplest" solution the LAM Faction came up with is to just take the standard Gyro and move it whole sale into one of the side torsos. This doesn't really impact performance, but it DOES render this critical system more vulnerable to destruction in combat. An Off Center Gyro takes up four crits in a chosen Side Torso.

Twin Gyro
Having double the mass of a Standard Gyro system, the Twin Gyro is actually two complete if smaller Gyro systems with one installed in each Side Torso. Each Gyro subsystem takes up only 2 crits and one crit to them will render the Gyro subsystem inoperable. However, if one Gyro is rendered inoperable, the other will continue functioning albeit at reduced efficiency (-2 penalty to all PSRs in mech and airmech modes); the reduced efficiency is because it's not really designed to handle the whole mech by itself. Loss of one (or even both!) Gyro subsystems has no effect on fighter mode performance, but Gyros are required when transforming in an environment with significant environmental gravity to avoid crashing.

Distributed Gyro
Weighing THREE times that of a Standard Gyro, the Distributed Gyro takes the Twin Gyro's modularity and carries it to the extreme. The Distributed Gyro takes up six crits, with each crit being an independent Gyro system that can be placed in any location on a LAM that has the crits for them. A Distributed Gyro's subsystem does not have to occupy the same location with any other Subsystems (althought they can). The system is also extremely resilient to damage, although damage will reduce performance; each crit to a sub system will result in a cumulative -1 penalty to all PSR rolls in mech and airmech modes, but the system cannot be rendered entirely inoperable until all Distributed Gyro crits have been destroyed.

[Stormfury]

Stormfury so you say that the Hybrid mode is good as it is, but what about LAMs in ASF-mode vs ASF?

I say that it is too good as it is. The focus of the game is ground combat, usually 'Mech centred; in the default environment, LAMs are easily the best thing out there.

The weaknesses of LAM tech are ordinarily on display against ASFs, but again that requires ASFs to be used and is ordinarily mitigated by the low number of ASFs assigned to combat units, even compared to LAMs. If a faction is mostly (or entirely) deploying LAMs, while they are individually weaker than comparable ASFs, being able to swarm the outsider in the air at will negates that minor disadvantage any way.

If you REALLY want to nerf this LAM faction, simply rule that they have no access to DHS. That'd be a pretty big limiter right there even if they have Heavy and Assault grade LAMs.

Not particularly. That actually has the unintended effect of making XL Engines and other weight-saving technology more attractive, especially since Improved Jump Jets are available. The predictable outcome of this is having the LAMs built around strike-break range/los for one turn to cool down-strike-etc, in the same way the old Jenner was used with the added problem of LAMs not being limited to a 7/11/5 movement pattern.

[Maingunnery]

I say that it is too good as it is. The focus of the game is ground combat, usually 'Mech centred; in the default environment, LAMs are easily the best thing out there.

Not so much anymore, now its WiGE movement vs pulse weapons, flak weapons and targeting equipment. In 3025 LAMs were far more dangerous in ground combat then they are now.

The weaknesses of LAM tech are ordinarily on display against ASFs, but again that requires ASFs to be used and is ordinarily mitigated by the low number of ASFs assigned to combat units, even compared to LAMs. If a faction is mostly (or entirely) deploying LAMs, while they are individually weaker than comparable ASFs, being able to swarm the outsider in the air at will negates that minor disadvantage any way.

I am not sure that swarming will work, ASFs are faster, can have more armor and have more usable tonnage. It will be a turkey shoot for the ASFs.

In my opinion not allowing LAMs to use XL equipment and special structure types does make a lot of sense fluff-wise. But against ASF, LAMs are completely crippled. So I think that LAMs should get the +2 movement bonus for their ASF mode and be allowed to use special armors.  But that only partly reduces the down sides, then even the multiple of best LAMs will have problems with Heavy ASF. Maybe allowing LAMs to use their JJs for turns in ASF mode would help, this would make them relative good dog-fighters.

[Stormfury]

Not so much anymore, now its WiGE movement vs pulse weapons, flak weapons and targeting equipment.

All of which still relies on the LAM:

A. Allowing itself to be within range of reply.
B. Allowing itself to be within the arc of reply.
C. Allows the LAM to generate truly stupendous to-hit modifiers on top of dictating LOS, firing arcs, and engagement ranges.

It's still a sucker's game once you introduce non-canon LAMs. The canon ones are not too bad, but custom designs with improved technologies moves the line well and truly beyond that.

I am not sure that swarming will work, ASFs are faster, can have more armor and have more usable tonnage. It will be a turkey shoot for the ASFs.

Given that the typical (Land-Air)'Mech regiment consists of 108-120 'Mechs, whilst the AeroSpace cover attached to canon regiments is between 18 and 36, I predict otherwise.

One-on-one, in the air, ASFs have considerable advantages against LAMs and are really the only units to do so. Making LAMs more common than ASFs, however, changes that paradigm considerably.

[Maingunnery]

All of which still relies on the LAM:

A. Allowing itself to be within range of reply.
B. Allowing itself to be within the arc of reply.
C. Allows the LAM to generate truly stupendous to-hit modifiers on top of dictating LOS, firing arcs, and engagement ranges.

It's still a sucker's game once you introduce non-canon LAMs. The canon ones are not too bad, but custom designs with improved technologies moves the line well and truly beyond that.

A Rifleman IIC 6 would slaughter canon T1 LAMs and could take on multiple Mixed-tech LAMs. I would be more concerned if I had to fight against 6M Locusts.

Given that the typical (Land-Air)'Mech regiment consists of 108-120 'Mechs, whilst the AeroSpace cover attached to canon regiments is between 18 and 36, I predict otherwise.

So? Currently ASF of the same weight class can completely dictate range, while throwing LAMs against Heavy ASFs is like having hamsters attack an attack dog.  I believe that even 3 LAMs vs 1 ASF will result in a ASF victory.  And 36 Heavy ASFs would curb stomp 108 LAMs.

[evilauthor]

All of which still relies on the LAM:

A. Allowing itself to be within range of reply.
B. Allowing itself to be within the arc of reply.
C. Allows the LAM to generate truly stupendous to-hit modifiers on top of dictating LOS, firing arcs, and engagement ranges.

This is ultimately initiative based. But as long as you stick to the game rules, one thing will always be true: in order to attack something, the LAM will have to get into the other guy's weapons range. The only way this ain't true is...

a) the LAM is armed with some version of the AC/2, in which case it can very well empty its ammo bins and not kill or even seriously damage anything if it stays out of the other guy's attack range,

and

b) the other guy has no long range firepower to speak of, which tends to be increasingly not the case.

Not to mention that there's quite a few normal mechs that can generate the same stupidly high TNs you seem to be worrying about. But they don't seem to dominate the battlefield even against opposition in their own weight class.

[Atlan]

1. What type of circumstances could lead or force a group to use LAMs as their main combatant?

The way that I see it, there is one way for LAMs to become standard: when Dropships are unavaliable.

To be more precise, A Dropship can carry an army, or at least dedicated Battlemechs and Aerospace fighters, both of which are better at their jobs than a LAM. But if, for some reason, an invading force couldn't use Dropships when assualting a planet, they'd NEED LAMs- they'd be the only way that they could get a force onto the ground and back into space again.

So, off the top of my head:

1: Old-school jumpships.
Jumpships used to be different from modern Jumpships. They had no Docking Collard- they had to make do with shuttles. So, what if during the Succession Wars, the Inner Sphere lost the technology to make new-style Jumpships, and so had to make do with making the older Aquilla class jumpships. Under this style, raids on other planets would be carried out by LAMs, with Battlemechs reserved for defence or full-scale invasion.

2: Planetry Defence Cannons.
If, at some point, a faction began defending its world through the use of Capital Scale Weaponry, either mounted in space or on the planet, it would be too dangerous to attack another planet with a force on a Dropship- the dropship would be destroyed, with all the forces on board. However, Aerospace fighters are much better at avoiding Captial weapons, and could be used to attack.

[Stormfury]

A Rifleman IIC 6 would slaughter canon T1 LAMs and could take on multiple Mixed-tech LAMs. I would be more concerned if I had to fight against 6M Locusts.

-3 to-hit modifier against whatever range the LAM decides to fight at plus their movement modifier. Given that an LAM can quite easily stay at medium range, and even the slowest canon model can generate a +5 to-hit modifer with no effort, whilst anything that has 6 or more Jump Jets can get a +6 or +7 to-hit modifier.

That machine also has only 14 shots per HAG, delivers the damage on cluster charts, and you're still staring down the barrel of +4 to-hit at medium range even before you look at any other modifiers.

Canon LAMs are in trouble there, but custom designs taking advantage of new technology, double heat sinks, and some of the improvements suggested in this thread tech and size-wise are just going to laugh.

So? Currently ASF of the same weight class can completely dictate range,

Not really. AeroSpace ranges work a lot differently to the ground game, so LAMs and ASFs vary only in hitting power. When there are a lot more LAMs than there are ASFs, that's not much of a problem.

while throwing LAMs against Heavy ASFs is like having hamsters attack an attack dog. 

Heavy ASFs aren't especially common, nor are Rifleman IIC 6s.

I believe that even 3 LAMs vs 1 ASF will result in a ASF victory.  And 36 Heavy ASFs would curb stomp 108 LAMs.

The only time you would see 36 heavy AeroSpace Fighters in one place would be with a Thera battle group, at which point the LAMs have much bigger problems any way.

This is ultimately initiative based. But as long as you stick to the game rules, one thing will always be true: in order to attack something, the LAM will have to get into the other guy's weapons range. The only way this ain't true is...

LAMs, due to their movement mode and range, have a much easier time taking advantage of terrain and arc restrictions than any other ground unit. I've fought LAMs under new rules and under old, and either way it ends in the utter slaughter of the non-LAM force. Unless it is explicitly known that LAMs will be faced in advance (and I was certainly never told, with the canon universe demonstrating the folly of preparing to face such threats given their rarity too) the odds of having even one design like the Rifleman IIC 6 on hand are not overly good. The odds of having multiple such machines on hand, which is what you need when your opponent's force is comprised wholly or largely of LAMs, is much worse still.

Not to mention that there's quite a few normal mechs that can generate the same stupidly high TNs you seem to be worrying about.

The only ones I can think of are the Ostscout that jumps 10 (with one ER Medium Laser), the Phoenix Hawk that jumps 9 (Snub-Nose PPC, ER Medium Laser), the Fire Moth or the MASC Locust that can run for 22.

The reason they do not dominate is simple; lack of firepower due to the tradeoffs made to get that movement, poor armour, and/or the risk of actually using that movement profile aggressively. Those are all much less of a factor on canon LAMs, never mind custom ones with advanced technologies that weigh 60+ tons.

[Maingunnery]

-3 to-hit modifier against whatever range the LAM decides to fight at plus their movement modifier. Given that an LAM can quite easily stay at medium range, and even the slowest canon model can generate a +5 to-hit modifer with no effort, whilst anything that has 6 or more Jump Jets can get a +6 or +7 to-hit modifier.

Were taking about WiGE movement, its not so good as you might think. WiGE units can only go 1 level higher then the terrain level, hazardous terrain such as woods are generally 2 levels high, thus LAMs are highly restricted on an average map and must take risks to use their full speed (sideslipping).

Not really. AeroSpace ranges work a lot differently to the ground game, so LAMs and ASFs vary only in hitting power. When there are a lot more LAMs than there are ASFs, that's not much of a problem.

I did some calculations based upon having an ASF and a LAM in ASF-mode, with equal armor, fuel, etc. The difference in tonnage for heatsinks and weapons is 28.5 tons in favor of the ASF for T1 and 25.5 tons for T2 (using IJJs and composite for the LAM). This is so bad that a 50T LAM can be compared with a 25 ton ASF, only the 25 ton ASF would be more effective.

Heavy ASFs aren't especially common, nor are Rifleman IIC 6s.

The only time you would see 36 heavy AeroSpace Fighters in one place would be with a Thera battle group, at which point the LAMs have much bigger problems any way.

Were not taking about a one-time trick pony here, a known LAM faction will face Heavy ASF, super fast light ASF and AA Mechs / Configs.

The only ones I can think of are the Ostscout that jumps 10 (with one ER Medium Laser), the Phoenix Hawk that jumps 9 (Snub-Nose PPC, ER Medium Laser), the Fire Moth or the MASC Locust that can run for 22.

In general those lights have better firepower and/or armor then the LAMs. And do not suffer from so much from terrain restrictions.

[Stormfury]

Were taking about WiGE movement, its not so good as you might think. WiGE units can only go 1 level higher then the terrain level, hazardous terrain such as woods are generally 2 levels high, thus LAMs are highly restricted on an average map and must take risks to use their full speed (sideslipping).

WIGE movement can be used to "fly" over inconvenient terrain. Or the LAM can simply transition to ASF mode and come down wherever it wants. The 12-hex movement of a 4-jumping LAM, 15-hex movement of a 5-jumping LAM, or 18-hex movement of a 6-jumper is their basic movement speed and carries with it no risk of sideslipping, the same as a WIGE or VTOL operating at Cruise speed.

LAMS are the unit least effected by terrain in the entirety of the game. At least conventional fighters or ASFs have to spend some time off-map turning and coming about for another pass.

I did some calculations based upon having an ASF and a LAM in ASF-mode, with equal armor, fuel, etc. The difference in tonnage for heatsinks and weapons is 28.5 tons in favor of the ASF for T1 and 25.5 tons for T2 (using IJJs and composite for the LAM). This is so bad that a 50T LAM can be compared with a 25 ton ASF, only the 25 ton ASF would be more effective.

And, again, when you have 3+ times as many more LAMs than your opponent does ASFs, that minor disadvantage is more than made up for- especially when proposing LAMs that can weigh more than 55 tons and can use improved construction materials, along with home-brewed new equipment that also increases their performance.

Were not taking about a one-time trick pony here, a known LAM faction will face Heavy ASF, super fast light ASF and AA Mechs / Configs.

AeroSpace Fighters are not as common as you seem to think they are, especially in the 65+ ton range. As many publications have pointed out, ASFs are in short supply across human-inhabited space. If an LAM-based faction has not been wiped out to take that technology, either nobody knows about its existence (in which case they aren't fighting...) or because they are so large they cannot be targeted for destruction, in which case they need not worry about anemy air cover.

This is further compounded by most canon Anti-Aircraft designs being well and truly terrible. Only by fielding them in large numbers and in formation will they be able to even hope to protect themselves, and doing so sacrifices the tactical and strategic advantage to the LAM force which can locate them and then skirt around as they please, not that LAMs needed any more advantage in that area.

In general those lights have better firepower and/or armor then the LAMs. And do not suffer from so much from terrain restrictions.

As addresed earlier, the terrain restrictions aren't restrictive. Only the Fire Moth has armouring issues, and the majority of them do not have the same firepower as an LAM; the Fire Moth can do better due to being Clan and having sacrificed so much tonnage to get its speed and weaponry, whilst comparable-tonnage LAMs handily outdamage the rest; the Ostcout cannot move as fast as a Wasp LAM and is outgunned by it. The Locust is ground-bound and can only outpace an LAM in bursts at the risk of hobbling itself whilst also being outgunned by the Stinger LAM. The Kuritan Phoenix Hawk is outclassed for movement and firepower at the hands of the Phoenix Hawk LAM.

All those are canon designs, some of quite high technology, compared to canon intro-tech LAMs. If XL-engined and/or Clan designs intended for speed can't even get close to the most basic LAMs available, providing the LAMs with greater technological advances is only going to widen that disparity from gulf to yawning chasm.

[Maingunnery]

WIGE movement can be used to "fly" over inconvenient terrain. Or the LAM can simply transition to ASF mode and come down wherever it wants. The 12-hex movement of a 4-jumping LAM, 15-hex movement of a 5-jumping LAM, or 18-hex movement of a 6-jumper is their basic movement speed and carries with it no risk of sideslipping, the same as a WIGE or VTOL operating at Cruise speed.

LAMS are the unit least effected by terrain in the entirety of the game. At least conventional fighters or ASFs have to spend some time off-map turning and coming about for another pass.

LAMs have massive problems with anything that is 2 hexes high, they can't enter regular wood hexes without crashing. Also going back and forwards between modes cuts into the effective movement and Anti-Air units would love it.


But would you think of having improved LAMs have only "Jump*2=WiGE cruise"? I would not care, and it can be fluffed as drawbacks from optimizing the ASF mode. 

And, again, when you have 3+ times as many more LAMs than your opponent does ASFs, that minor disadvantage is more than made up for- especially when proposing LAMs that can weigh more than 55 tons and can use improved construction materials, along with home-brewed new equipment that also increases their performance.

In the example of going nuts with custom improvements (+2 ASF move, FF armor, 75 tons, 5% conv) (but no XL for LAM), then the 75 ton ASF would still carry more then double the weaponry tonnage then the ASF-mode LAM. In the end even 3+ times the LAMs wouldn't be a crushing force, as even then the ASF side would have a higher average weight combined with having more firepower and the heavier weapons from the ASF will eat through the armor much faster.
 

AeroSpace Fighters are not as common as you seem to think they are, especially in the 65+ ton range. As many publications have pointed out, ASFs are in short supply across human-inhabited space. If an LAM-based faction has not been wiped out to take that technology, either nobody knows about its existence (in which case they aren't fighting...) or because they are so large they cannot be targeted for destruction, in which case they need not worry about anemy air cover.

This is further compounded by most canon Anti-Aircraft designs being well and truly terrible. Only by fielding them in large numbers and in formation will they be able to even hope to protect themselves, and doing so sacrifices the tactical and strategic advantage to the LAM force which can locate them and then skirt around as they please, not that LAMs needed any more advantage in that area.

Even a normal ASF attachment can devastate pure LAM forces. Also the number of ASF (and average ASF weight) has been growing for quite some time.
LAM lack the tonnage space to mount heavy weaponry. There are also plenty of capable AA Mechs, and refitting Mechs for against an specific enemy is nothing new.  Also running away from the objective (where the Mechs are) isn't winning.

As addresed earlier, the terrain restrictions aren't restrictive. Only the Fire Moth has armouring issues, and the majority of them do not have the same firepower as an LAM; the Fire Moth can do better due to being Clan and having sacrificed so much tonnage to get its speed and weaponry, whilst comparable-tonnage LAMs handily outdamage the rest; the Ostcout cannot move as fast as a Wasp LAM and is outgunned by it. The Locust is ground-bound and can only outpace an LAM in bursts at the risk of hobbling itself whilst also being outgunned by the Stinger LAM. The Kuritan Phoenix Hawk is outclassed for movement and firepower at the hands of the Phoenix Hawk LAM.

The Ostscout if far more maneuverable (as Jump MP as worth twice as much as WiGE MP). The Locust has double the effective firepower of the Stinger LAM and can move faster if both aren't taking risks. The Kuritan PH is a solid match against the PH LAM, while still being 10 tons lighter.

[Stormfury]

LAMs have massive problems with anything that is 2 hexes high, they can't enter regular wood hexes without crashing.

Again, not the case.

They can spend 1 additional MP per hex to gain the required altitude to pass over it. An LAM can move through (well, over) woods as easily as a 'Mech, and unless the entire map is covered in trees will have no issue doing so. And then coming down over the other side of the woods gives it an additional MP.

Also going back and forwards between modes cuts into the effective movement and Anti-Air units would love it.

Break LOS (ridiculously easy in a LAM), transform, fly off to prevent the range from allowing enemies to fire, turn off-map, return and drop to ground level out of LOS, then return to Land-Air mode and continue domination. All it costs the LAM is time, and there is absolutely nothing a non-LAM force can do about it.

But would you think of having improved LAMs have only "Jump*2=WiGE cruise"? I would not care, and it can be fluffed as drawbacks from optimizing the ASF mode.

The change is so minor as to be irrelevant; a 4 jumper that used to have 12 MP in Land-Air mode instead goes 8/12, a 5 mover that went 15 goes 10/15, and so on. The massive movement advantage they have is not dimished in any effective fashion.

In the example of going nuts with custom improvements (+2 ASF move, FF armor, 75 tons, 5% conv) (but no XL for LAM), then the 75 ton ASF would still carry more then double the weaponry tonnage then the ASF-mode LAM. In the end even 3+ times the LAMs wouldn't be a crushing force, as even then the ASF side would have a higher average weight combined with having more firepower and the heavier weapons from the ASF will eat through the armor much faster.

And the LAM force boasting 3+ times the number still has 50% more firepower than the ASFs (1 ASF = 2 LAMs) along with heavier armour and requiring three seperate units to be destroyed to put an end to them rather than just one. The LAM force is still holding all the cards in such a scenario.

Even a normal ASF attachment can devastate pure LAM forces.

Not unless they locate the LAM base and drop a bomb or nuke on it. In a straight fight, see the above. Normally LAMs are vulnerable to ASF because their rarity means they won't have the numbers to take on ASFs, and their limited mass prevents them from being really effective when doing so any way. Removing both of those inhibiting factors swings the advantage squarely back to LAMs in that arena.

Also running away from the objective (where the Mechs are) isn't winning.[/wuote]

Only if there is something in that area you absolutely must have then and there. Otherwise, you gain the advantage of always chosing the location and time of battle. On the offensive, the LAM force can simply attrit the enemy to death. On the defensive, the LAM force is never going to be pinned for a decisive battle that the attackers need, so all the need to do is make limited engagements while they wait for reinforcements to show up. Ordinarily, LAMs would add an interesting option to the larger force they are deployed with; en mass, there is nothing an opponent can do that gives them an advantage short of bringing a WarShip, and even that leaves them vulnerable should the LAM force decide to send a few sacrificial goats in with nukes.

The Ostscout if far more maneuverable (as Jump MP as worth twice as much as WiGE MP).

Not the case; see above. 10 Jump MP vs 18 WIGE MP vastly favours the latter under most circumstances.

[quoteThe Locust has double the effective firepower of the Stinger LAM and can move faster if both aren't taking risks

14/21 ( 28 ) is less likely to have a decisive effect on battle than 18 Jump WIGE plus the option of ASF mode, especially when even the intro-tech Stinger LAM carries three Medium Lasers to the Locust-6M's 2 ER Mediums and 1 ER SMall. It still has the firepower advantage, and a "modern" refit that only gives the Stinger ER technologies and Double Heat Sinks completely erases any advantage it may have had in terms of range (given the LAM can exploit its movement far more easily) and that's before you get into the application of XL engines, advanced construction materials, or any of the other improvements suggested in this thread.

The Kuritan PH is a solid match against the PH LAM, while still being 10 tons lighter.

Except for surrrendering the field to it completely in terms of movement, while its restricted weapons arc arrangement makes it simplicity in itself for the LAM to avoid the only weapon it has that actually poses a threat.

Under ordinary circumstances, LAMs are "balanced" (and I use that term loosely, applying it to their role in a larger conflict as opposed to their battlefield performance) by their rarity, technology limitations, and mass limitations. Removing just the numbers limitation, let alone all of them transitions all of the balance issues they bring to the micro level up to the macro level.

[Maingunnery]

]They can spend 1 additional MP per hex to gain the required altitude to pass over it.

Citation please.

An LAM can move through (well, over) woods as easily as a 'Mech, and unless the entire map is covered in trees will have no issue doing so.

If the entire map is covered in trees, then it can't land.

And then coming down over the other side of the woods gives it an additional MP.

Citation please.

Break LOS (ridiculously easy in a LAM), transform, fly off to prevent the range from allowing enemies to fire, turn off-map, return and drop to ground level out of LOS, then return to Land-Air mode and continue domination. All it costs the LAM is time, and there is absolutely nothing a non-LAM force can do about it.

Breaking LOS is the hardest thing for a LAM to do, they can't stop and WiGE vehicles fly one elevation above the underlying terrain, thus they stick out to be shot down. Also LAMs tend to have highly limited fuel, so no constant use of ASF mode. 

The change is so minor as to be irrelevant; a 4 jumper that used to have 12 MP in Land-Air mode instead goes 8/12, a 5 mover that went 15 goes 10/15, and so on. The massive movement advantage they have is not dimished in any effective fashion.

So you think that 33% reduction in speed is 'irrelevant'..... I really can't take you serious with this.

And the LAM force boasting 3+ times the number still has 50% more firepower than the ASFs (1 ASF = 2 LAMs) along with heavier armour and requiring three seperate units to be destroyed to put an end to them rather than just one. The LAM force is still holding all the cards in such a scenario.

Not unless they locate the LAM base and drop a bomb or nuke on it. In a straight fight, see the above. Normally LAMs are vulnerable to ASF because their rarity means they won't have the numbers to take on ASFs, and their limited mass prevents them from being really effective when doing so any way. Removing both of those inhibiting factors swings the advantage squarely back to LAMs in that arena.

Nope, you are severely underestimating how bad LAMs have it. Even with non-canon improvements, for the same weight an ASF has generally twice to three times the tonnage of the LAM. The average tonnage of the ASF force is also higher then that of the LAMs. The 75 ton LAM would be as rare as the 100 ton ASF. The ASF force would also be able to mount more long reaching heavy weapons. LAMs at 3+ the number just gives them a chance, but no guaranteed victory.

A canon LAM force would need 6+ the numbers just to have a chance.

10 Jump MP vs 18 WIGE MP vastly favours the latter under most circumstances.

10 Jump MP is a near guaranteed 10 hexes in the most optimal spot. But 18 WiGE hexes is quickly cut down with trying to deal with terrain and then they aren't even able to get the best spots on the map.

[Bosefius]

Let's cool things down a little, we don't want to head for warnings and/or thread lock.

Thank you
The Management  ;)

[Stormfury]

Citation please.

WIGE movement rules in Total Warfare covers both.

If the entire map is covered in trees, then it can't land.

Only under that one specific circumstance is that the case. However, the LAM still has the option of flying around to bomb or strafe, in addition to clearing a hex to land in as rough terrain is not prohibited.

Breaking LOS is the hardest thing for a LAM to do, they can't stop and WiGE vehicles fly one elevation above the underlying terrain, thus they stick out to be shot down.

'Mechs are also treated as being one level above their hex for LOS. This has not seemed to greatly dimish their combat effectiveness.

Breaking LOS is a breeze for units that move as quickly as an LAM; all they need is some woods hexes, a building, or a bit of elevation. It is for the same reason that 6+ jumpers are notoriously hard to pin down; LAMs not only tend towards high jump radii (for their mass or period) in pure 'Mech mode, they have a similar movement profile to the swiftest of hover vehicles; the Savannah Master can get out of LOS almost at will, and LAMs usually have a speed that is comparable in that mode.

Also LAMs tend to have highly limited fuel, so no constant use of ASF mode.

 

Still definitely enough to negate any terrain or simply leave any time they so desire, however. This is not an option shared by any other unit type in the game.

So you think that 33% reduction in speed is 'irrelevant'..... I really can't take you serious with this.

You specified a Cruising WIGE movement of double their Jump MP. That still enables them to Flank out to the same MP as the existing rules set, resulting in a limited change to their effectiveness.

Nope, you are severely underestimating how bad LAMs have it. Even with non-canon improvements, for the same weight an ASF has generally twice to three times the tonnage of the LAM. The average tonnage of the ASF force is also higher then that of the LAMs. The 75 ton LAM would be as rare as the 100 ton ASF. The ASF force would also be able to mount more long reaching heavy weapons. LAMs at 3+ the number just gives them a chance, but no guaranteed victory.

Medium fighters still make up the bulk of AeroSpace units; heavy fighters are on par with assualt 'Mechs for rarity amongst ASFs. That puts most ASFs in a similar tonnage bracket to the larger LAMs; as already noted, giving a force so many LAMs results in, at worst, parity between the two, if not an advantage to the LAMs due to simple weight of numbers on their side.

A canon LAM force would need 6+ the numbers just to have a chance.

And this being the one area in which LAMs are actually deficient to the dedicated combat units they can mimic, the rarity of LAMs, and the limited number of existing LAMs to choose from whilst the number of well-designed fighters has grown should lead to that situation. As it is, LAMs are by far superior on the ground; there should be some trade-off for their general capability, let alone how dangerous they are in hybrid form.

Having it be a weakness to ASF units is hardly much of a drawback; ASF engagements are not the norm in games of BT in any case.

10 Jump MP is a near guaranteed 10 hexes in the most optimal spot. But 18 WiGE hexes is quickly cut down with trying to deal with terrain and then they aren't even able to get the best spots on the map.

18 WIGE hexes is about one mapsheet in length. If an LAM doesn't like the terrain features on its current map, it can either pick a new one or change to ASF mode, both options that are not available to 'Mechs. In practice, 18 (or more, depending on terrain) WIGE movement will be more useful than 10 Jump because of the additional options it opens up for retreats and slashing strikes, exploitation of limited firing arcs, or moving to the rear of an enemy.

[ntin]

Couple of thoughts

1.   Actual Thrusters

The ‘Mech jump jet is designed to expend a small amount of fuel to generate thrust. For a LAM this seems backwards are they equipped with a liquid feel supply. So a scaled down AeroSpace thruster that could draw off the LAM’s fuel reserves for a greater thrust. This would at least allow a LAM to be in the same ball park thrust wise with other AeroSpace fighters even if lagging behind in the areas of weapons and armor, tonnage. As well as giving a LAM in BattleMech mode a small advantage in having a greater jump range. The downside this would all come at the expensive of fuel points which tend to be a premium for LAMs.

2.   Limited Hard Points

Allowing LAM a small number of hard points (1/3 or ½ of a normal Aerospace fighter) would give some utility in adding fuel tanks or a few bomb drops.