Clan Wolf and Wolf's Dragoons

[Hawkeye Jim]

A thought occured to me. If Wolf Clan could spare about 5 galaxies worth of freeborns to staff the Dragoons, wouldn't that seem to mean their touman was much larger than listed? Perhaps others are as well.

[Jaim Magnus]

Originally the Clan toumans were going to be larger... but then people realized that if they were, the Clans would have steamrolled the Inner Sphere.  Now the size of the Wolf's Dragoons is one of those things that doesn't quite make sense, but we're stuck with.

[jklantern]

Originally the Clan toumans were going to be larger... but then people realized that if they were, the Clans would have steamrolled the Inner Sphere.  Now the size of the Wolf's Dragoons is one of those things that doesn't quite make sense, but we're stuck with.

Maybe a mix of some of the Freeborn in their Touman and some of the Freeborn who didn't quite make the grade for the typical Warrior Caste?  Or other washouts?

[Hellraiser]

Some were volunteers (trueborn & even bloodnamed) from other clans too.

Also, its not really 5 Galaxies of mechs, it was about 10-12 clusters.  More like 2-3 Galaxies.
The armor & infantry was in even smaller #s.
Its also likely that since so many of them were freeborn and since freeborn warriors are rare that as mentioned, quite a few of them were testdowns.

[Alan Grant]

Don't forget that Clan Warrior turnover is very high. Warriors test-down, die in combat (or a Trial of Grievance, or Trial of Bloodright Grand Melee), or simply age to the point where they are deemed fit to be nothing more than sibko instructors (around age 35-40, if unblooded). If the Clans retained their solahma warriors for another 10-20 years of service, their toumans would be huge (or at least the pool of available warriors would be, don't know about equipment).

When Clan Wolf was forming the Dragoons, I suspect that a lot of those "going down and out" warriors, instead of dying, ended up in the Dragoons, during that period. So they siphoned off a lot of those people. Mercenaries of ages 30-40 would have appeared normal and natural in the Inner Sphere. They might have been test-downs by Clan standard, but could be considered veteran and elite soldiers to Inner Sphere eyes.

On top of that, we don't know if creating the Dragoons left Clan Wolf short-handed for a while. Their Clusters and Galaxies could have ended up a little short-staffed and short-handed for a few years after creating the Dragoon, until new warriors refilled the empty slots. For all we know, they temporarily deactivated garrison clusters of freeborn warriors (who had lost most of their personnel to the Dragoons) and used frontline units to fill the gaps until those "losses" could be made up via new freeborn cadets selected from the lower castes and new trueborns coming out of the sibkos.

Clan Wolf could have also let go of a lot of warriors to form the Dragoons, but then boosted the number of freeborn warriors they would take in for that year (or a set period of a few years) to refill the empty slots in their Touman. If the Clan generally only accepted 50 freeborns a year (just theoretically speaking),  maybe the Wolves upped it to 100 that year and used the extra warriors to replace what was lost. So for the next 10-20 years, more freeborns than usual would have appeared in the Touman. That number would have dwindled again as attrition took it's toll and as new trueborns graduated and replaced that aging generation of freeborns.

So no, I don't think it means their Touman was or is bigger than listed. There are ways in which it could have happened. The personnel was there, and could be obtained in the ways described above. We already have a pretty detailed accounting of where much of the equipment came from. Most of it was mothballed stuff dating back to Exodus years and early Clan history.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Even if it's only 10-12 clusters, that's still a sizeable drop in numbers. Even if they were freeborn, they were still trained warriors. There must have been some sort of agreement among the Clans not to take advantage of the fact that the Wolves would be stretched thin for garrison troops

[Alan Grant]

Even if it's only 10-12 clusters, that's still a sizeable drop in numbers. Even if they were freeborn, they were still trained warriors. There must have been some sort of agreement among the Clans not to take advantage of the fact that the Wolves would be stretched thin for garrison troops

If someone had launched a major Trial against the Wolves, that "Warden Clan" could have aborted, or "temporarily" (for years) suspended the recon mission before the Dragoons left, citing an immediate crisis. That would have worked as buying time for the Warden agenda, which would have hampered the Crusaders.

So yes, I imagine even the Crusaders left the Wolves alone. They wanted the Dragoons to be on their way. I doubt there was a formal agreement to that effect, but the political ramifications of lining up to assault the Wolves at that time would have been pretty obvious to all the Khans.

Personally though, I don't think it would have deprived the Wolves of 10-12 clusters of warriors that they actually wanted. As I said in my previous post, the Dragoons were a great career choice for warriors sliding towards "retirement" (in all it's various Clan forms).

That would be like creating a U.S. Army unit built entirely on soldiers who have just mustered out or retired from the military. The  military isn't any smaller for their loss, they were expecting to lose them anyway.

The Touman would have taken a hit in size and strength, but not the full 10-12 clusters worth. I'm thinking more like 5-7 clusters.

[Wotan]

It is not the number of warriors that i'm confused with. Its more the number of old SLDF equipment that one clan alone can send out to a recon mission. Not to count the jumpship, dropships and ... the warships !

[Frabby]

Conversely, I'm surprised how/why the Dragoons were considered a Clan Wolf force. I think the only reasons for calling themselves "Wolf" Dragoons was that the mission leaders Jaime & Joshua happened to be Wolf freebirths. If Natasha Kerensky had been put in charge, they might just as easily have been the Widowmaker Dragoons. :)

Their equipment was apparently jointly owned Clan property broken out of Brian Caches (it certainly was outdated, mothballed SW-era stuff that the Clans considered both worthless and suitable for the "covert" mission). Nobody contributed equipment from their frontline Clusters or Galaxies, and apparently the SW-era equipment wasn't even garrison level quality.

IIRC Ghost Bear Khan Nadia Winston created the unit.
Clan Hell's Horses Goliath Scorpion trained them.
Clan Wolf only contributed a share to staffing them, but not overly much.
When you look at the surnames in the Dragoon roster, you'll find a number of bloodnames from various Clans right there. For my own BattleCorps story (Rise and Shine), I couldn't resist the temptation to canonically establish Thomas West as a (former) Nova Cat because the implication was so glaringly obvious anyways.


Five regiments plus support personnell is easily taken from the Clans' solahma warrior ranks, freeborns, and lower castes.

[Maelwys]

Goliath Scorpions were the ones who trained them, not the Horses.

[roosterboy]

IIRC Ghost Bear Khan Nadia Winston created the unit.

No, she just attempted to force an invasion vote that Kerlin Ward headed off by proposing the Dragoon Compromise.

Clan Hell's Horses trained them.

Goliath Scorpions trained them in old SLDF tactics. Being active warriors, they were already trained in Clan tactics.

Clan Wolf only contributed a share to staffing them, but not overly much.

Clan Wolf provided most, if not all, of the equipment and the overwhelming majority of the people. Only a few were from other Clans.

[Frabby]

Thanks for the clarifications/corrections, RB. So much for working from memory :)

Anyways, I was under the impression that the Wolves essentially only submitted the idea and the command personnell, and being a joint mission for all Clans, made the other Clans make the material contributions. You make it sound as though the entire Dragoons operation was a Wolf operation (as opposed to all Clans together, under orders from the IlKhan). While I tend to believe what you say, is there any source spelling this out?

[Stormfury]

Wolf Clan Sourcebook, Field Manual Mercenaries, Field Manual Crusader Clans, Field Manual Warden Clans, the Dragoon novels, the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, etc etc etc.

The Dragoon personnel had to take surnames to blend in. Just because there's a Smith here or a Church there does not mean they were Bloodnamed; the only actual Bloodnamed warrior we know of who did accompany the Dragoon mission was Natasha. Supposedly there were (some) others, but there would not have been very many, and those who did go probably did not hail from the more exalted lineages.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Everything I've ever read about it said that virtually the entire unit came from the Wolves. It's possible that some of the volunteers may have been captured freebirths from other Clans. That would have made the mix more Clan generic.

[Wotan]

There is no problem in fielding that much warriors in the Dragoons only from the Wolves. There is enough time to breed the next generation to complete the touman by the time of the expected invasion. So there is no real loss.

But we knew that for garrison purpose many clans must take old SLDF equipment. Sending more than 5 regiments away must be a blow to the reserves of clan Wolf. Especially in the last years this must worry Vlads Wolves.

[Stormfury]

Vlad's Wolves have tapped out their caches (Highlander IIC write-up) and any such equipment or forces would have been stuck in the Homeworlds any way.

[Werewolf]

I don't think giving away such a number of second-line units was much of a hassle for Clan Wolf.
I mean, didn't Kerensky take the vast majoritiy of forces with him? That'd be 'Mechs and vehicles
in the tenthousands, if not even hundredthousands, all lingering around in mothballs.
A mere 5 regiments with support was surely worth just a shrug of the shoulders.

[Wotan]

The numbers that survived the Pentagon wars are not known. But as all clans fight hard for each Brian chache they seem to have some kind of usage. Having the Smoke Jaguars fielding even IS tech in desperate need for better equipment, i think there are not that much brian caches left.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Some Clans had more manufacturing capacity than others. I suspect some Clans had no reserves left by 3050.

[Alan Grant]

Some useful fluff from TRO: 3085, on the Stinger Mk 1 LAM.

MechWarrior Kurt Brunner: Born into Clan Goliath Scorpion in an undistinguished branch of the Shaffer bloodline, MechWarrior Kurt dreamed of returning to the Inner Sphere. When the Dragoons Compromise was announced, Kurt leaped at the opportunity and underwent Trials to be part of Jaime and Joshua Wolf’s force. Upon arriving in the Federated Suns, Kurt (who had taken the surname of Brunner) found himself disillusioned by how far the Successor States had fallen. He was killed in action on Misery, a bitter shadow of his enthusiastic younger self.

So at least in some cases, even the trueborns (probably the Unblooded ones, but we can't rule out the possibility that some Bloodnamed willingly changed their surnames, Natasha may have refused) took on surnames other than their Bloodnames, per the cover story.

The point being we truly don't know to what extent the Dragoons made up and assigned surnames to fit the cover story. So surnames are a very unreliable indicator of what Clan the warriors came from.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Goliath Scorpions are known to seek out SL artifacts. It's not out of the question that some of them decided to go along to search in new areas. Especially since their Clan had a lot more exposure to the whole idea since they were doing the training.

Perhaps one of the regiments was made up of volunteers from the Scorpions....or maybe some Nova Cats following visions.

[Alan Grant]

FM: WC, page 106.

"When the Dragoons finally departed from the Clan Homeworlds in 3004, several Scorpion warriors volunteered to accompany them into the Inner Sphere."

The Dragoons spent 2 years training against the Scorpions' Heartvenom Cluster before leaving.

EDIT

Warriors of Kerensky, page 17.

"Comprised of freeborn warriors drawn from Clan Wolf police Clusters and strengthened by a handful of Bloodnamed warriors...."

Just throwing canon evidence into the mixer. I strongly doubt that there were significant contingents of warriors from other Clans. We have zero proof of that from multiple canon sources on the topic and the surname-connection has already been cast into doubt. The Scorpions "several volunteers" being the strongest exception.

If you want to speculate that warriors from other Clans found their way into the Dragoons in small numbers, that's fine. We have no evidence to support it, so that would be purely an opinion and unproven hypothesis though.

If warriors from other Clans had found their way into the Dragoons in sizable number (say, battalion strength or more) I think we would have canon mention of it.

The story of the Dragoons is one that is pretty well described and covered in multiple canon texts. This is not a topic where we are lacking in evidence.

[ShockaTime]

FM: WC, page 106.

"When the Dragoons finally departed from the Clan Homeworlds in 3004, several Scorpion warriors volunteered to accompany them into the Inner Sphere."

The Dragoons spent 2 years training against the Scorpions' Heartvenom Cluster before leaving.

an example being the notable Stinger LAM pilot in 3085, IIRC.

EDIT: Just read your above post Alan, my bad.

[roosterboy]

If you want to speculate that warriors from other Clans found their way into the Dragoons in small numbers, that's fine. We have no evidence to support it, so that would be purely an opinion and unproven hypothesis though.

Still determined that the members of the expedition be unquestionably loyal to Wolf Clan and the Warden cause, [Khan Kerlin] Ward offered positions in the Dragoons to Bloodnamed or trueborn warriors of any Clan who wanted such a chance. Surprisingly, the number of volunteers for the Dragoons among trueborn as well as freeborn warriors skyrocketed once Jaime and Joshua were named commanders.

[Alan Grant]

Oh nice, I stand corrected.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Apparently Jaime and Joshua had acquired quite a reputation.

[Stormfury]

Natasha rated them highly, as did the Wolf Khans.

Had they been Trueborn, I would not be surprised to find them Bloodnamed and at least holding Cluster commands. As it was, Jaime commanded a Trinary in Clan Wolf's most highly elite Cluster.

[Hawkeye Jim]

I'd bet all the Scorpions who went along were Seekers.

[ColBosch]

I'd bet all the Scorpions who went along were Seekers.

Nope. Had Kurt Brunner been a Seeker, for example, I would've mentioned it.

[Alan Grant]

A Seeker wouldn't have been with the Scorpions to train the Dragoons. Once you have petitioned the Clan for Seeker rights, and been granted them, you are gone. You start gathering what you need to go on your vision guided journey and you are gone. You leave the Clan and your unit behind. A seeker would not have been around to hear the call to join the Dragoons, or to help train them. They would be off wandering around looking for the thing they saw in their vision.

Seeker rights aren't some broad catchall that just lets you roam anywhere for all time. Also once you apply for Seeker rights, you lose them once you return to the Clan. So there aren't any "Seekers for life" except those declared bandits by the Clan. A Seeker is on a single mission, and once completed or failed, is simply a warrior again.

Seekers would have been unreliable. As a Seeker, you are duty bound to find the thing you had a vision about, then return. That meant when you got to the Inner Sphere, you would have parted company with them. As soon as you found some Star League relic, you would have headed for home to present your findings to the Clan. That's not useful to the Dragoons, who need to retain all their personnel to stay functional. Wandering loners drinking Necrosia (trying to get another vision to help them on their journey) runs counter to military discipline and the need to maintain the unit's cover and secrecy.

I suspect many of the Scorpions that went along were warriors of the Heartvenom Cluster. The warriors who had been training with and against the Dragoons for 2 years. The Seekers were off doing their own thing during this time.

Could 1 or 2 Seekers have been in the Dragoon mix? Sure. But not all of them. Kurt Brunner was no Seeker based on what we know. He just wanted to see the Inner Sphere. That's par for the course, for all the Dragoons who volunteered on what they saw as the adventure of a lifetime.