Author Topic: TRO 3145--Federated Suns  (Read 187150 times)

Aldous

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #90 on: 29 May 2013, 18:44:47 »
Though that's why the Davion playerbase's hatred of Katrina II always amuses me - she undoubtedly would have done in the Capellan Confederation if left to her own devices.  It appears Caleb would have done the same if he wasn't sold out on Palmyra.

I don't really understand the Davion hate for Caleb. There was nothing wrong with his strategies. He was right in the fact that the CCAF was the bigger threat and his plan to invade New Samarkand would have stopped the DCMS in its tracks.

Kitsune413

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #91 on: 29 May 2013, 19:05:56 »
Most likely out of character. You learn immediately that he kills the previous Prince to become Prince. Rather than let Julian be Prince. He's also obviously mentally unstable. When you watch gladiator you don't root for Joaquan Phoenix. You play battletech, you don't root for Caleb. Julain is our Russel Crowe.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #92 on: 29 May 2013, 19:08:34 »
You play battletech, you don't root for Caleb.

Well, there's plenty who could root for Caleb.  It's just that those would could appreciate him would have picked a faction besides Davion long ago.

Decoy

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #93 on: 29 May 2013, 19:18:55 »
I could make a point that Harrison's death as I seem to recall it *MIGHT* be considered an accidental death in some courts if presented a certain way. However, since he committed his certain special crime, defending Caleb is not a task I really want to perform. As I say that, I'd still rather Caleb than Julian.

 Julian strikes me as too much of another Victor. I get the feeling he'd get the Fed Suns out of their immediate trouble, toss the crown to some distant relative like a hot potato, and then go fight for "Justice, Truth, and Valor".
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Kitsune413

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #94 on: 29 May 2013, 19:25:23 »
Julian strikes me as too much of another Victor. I get the feeling he'd get the Fed Suns out of their immediate trouble, toss the crown to some distant relative like a hot potato, and then go fight for "Justice, Truth, and Valor".

Which is presumably why you have a Clan Coyote Emblem and not a Federated Suns one.  ;D
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Decoy

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #95 on: 29 May 2013, 19:40:02 »
Why would I use the emblem of my secondary faction?

The only time I've changed it was when I've been involved with other factions in various iterations of the Fan Councils. IIRC, Mongoose, Fire Mandrill, Hell's Horses, and Magistry of Canopus were emblems I've used.
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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #96 on: 29 May 2013, 19:45:57 »
I don't really understand the Davion hate for Caleb. There was nothing wrong with his strategies. He was right in the fact that the CCAF was the bigger threat and his plan to invade New Samarkand would have stopped the DCMS in its tracks.

Even though he is nothing more than a fictional character, hate is too weak a word to use when I think about Caleb. The only good thing that I can say is that at least he went down fighting. The man was completely and utterly selfish and he was out of his mind. Not cool at all.

While I would prefer Julian to be a bit more Hanse and a bit less Victor, I can think of no better time than now for a warrior/prince.
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nckestrel

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #97 on: 29 May 2013, 19:56:45 »
Caleb was great.
If you ignore his personal failings. (Too numerous to list).
If you forget that he ignores any advice except that of his own. (His only advisor is his fictional alter ego).
If you forget about his military failures. (Biggest military FS debacle in centuries?)
You're left with the fact that at least he left an heir, Julian, that can hopefully fix all this.
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Jellico

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #98 on: 29 May 2013, 20:18:01 »
And what if he had won? O:-)

Aldous

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #99 on: 29 May 2013, 20:26:41 »
I get the feeling the hate is more about the military failures than about character.

It'll be an interesting psych experiment to see how everyone reacts had Caleb invaded New Samarkand and saved the FS.

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #100 on: 29 May 2013, 22:02:54 »
I get the feeling the hate is more about the military failures than about character.

It'll be an interesting psych experiment to see how everyone reacts had Caleb invaded New Samarkand and saved the FS.
I don't think it's about the military failures so much as it is a reaction to what Caleb represents being thrust into the Battletech Universe.

Every faction, be it a House, Clan or Comstar, has a lecherous character somewhere in it's history.  Until Caleb though, they were all either historical figures or minor characters of one sort or another.  Had Caleb been a historical figure or a minor character, I don't think the reaction would have been as extreme as it has been, since his very existence could be overlooked or partially ignored for the sake of the story arc.

Caleb being the First Prince, however, forced the issue into the forefront of the audience's mind and, frankly, this type of character doesn't fit into the timeline as a primary, ongoing character.  Even the villains that we've seen so far, which have been unsavory in the extreme, have not been on the same level as Caleb Davion.  Even Mad Max, who pretty much set the bar for villains in the Battletech Universe, was evil in a cheesy 80's kind of way, which is why "Mad Max = Lo Pan" works so well. 

Caleb, on the other hand, reminds you of something you'd see on the nightly news and that's a large part of the problem.  We come into this universe to forget the problems of the present, not have them shoved in our faces.  If I wanted that kind of evil, I'd just watch the news.

nckestrel

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #101 on: 29 May 2013, 22:54:36 »
And what if he had won? O:-)

By alienating his military commanders and every other person he knows?  Wouldn't last.
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Greywind

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #102 on: 29 May 2013, 23:03:03 »
Well, there's plenty who could root for Caleb.  It's just that those would could appreciate him would have picked a faction besides Davion long ago.

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #103 on: 30 May 2013, 08:45:41 »
And what if he had won? O:-)

That's asking if he suddenly had a magical flying unicorn swoop down from  somewhere just as that DCMS MechWarrior fired his gun to save Caleb's tank. And then just because it is a magical unicorn, it had all the invading Draconis Combine soldier start singing and dancing.

It wasn't going to happen. Caleb's reign was doomed from the start due to his personal problems, and one way or another was going to result in the same thing. Utter failure.

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #104 on: 30 May 2013, 12:30:57 »
The FedSuns' national predicament is eerily similar to the strategic situation during the First Succession War, and we all know how that one turned out for House Davion.  O0

Give the Dragon enough time. He's just as apt to cut his own throat as reach the steps of New Avalon.

The Cappies on the other hand...well, New Syrtis is already pretty cold. Perhaps new management will help warm things up a little...
« Last Edit: 30 May 2013, 12:33:50 by Knightmare »
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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #105 on: 30 May 2013, 14:51:45 »
Caleb would've made a very interesting First Prince.  Not saying he wasn't a deplorable character who you'd love to see bad things happen to.  But real history more often than not has many deplorable, terrible people still go on and do important things for their country, and be lauded for it.  Had Caleb not met his end at Palmyra, seeing the nuanced handling of his character would have been very interesting, and helped return the shades of grey Battletech started off with.

That said, I thought his end t Palmyra was pretty apt too.  I was very surprised, I thought we were all headed to a Julian v. Caleb Civil War, but Catalyst managed to throw a curve ball and get rid of Caleb in a believable manner that opened up the possibility for Julian to come to the rescue without it being too campy.

The Dragon is a juggernaut right now, but the Capellans are probably becoming very overstretched. 

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #106 on: 30 May 2013, 16:02:00 »
The FedSuns' national predicament is eerily similar to the strategic situation during the First Succession War, and we all know how that one turned out for House Davion.  O0

Give the Dragon enough time. He's just as apt to cut his own throat as reach the steps of New Avalon.


Ah but in the 1st SW parallel doesn't hold true. At that time only the DC was threatening to take New Avalon. In the DA era, it's a race between the CapCon and Combine to gut the Federated Suns. At the moment both March Capitol planets and most of their respective Marches have fallen to a two sided attack. The new First Prince is caught outwith the chain of command of the AFFS, and has a hostile nation to cross in order to "get home". A large chunk of the AFFS was obliterated in one fell swoop.  The standard policy during the SW was if one side got too uppity its neighbour would attack the weakened border. At the moment both the Combine (flush with success of crushing the NovaCats - and have a very quiet Ghost Bear border), and the CapCon (with its powers of Fiat, tied into a lovefest from long time enemies in the FWL and a acquiescent Magistry) have no threat to worry about from their "other borders" so are piling it on the FedSuns with gay abandon.

There is no darker moment in history than this point for the Federated Suns and House Davion. The future doesn't look rosy, and even if Julian pulls victory from the jaws of defeat and stops both attackers, the Crucis March and the Periphery March are pretty much all that's left. It would take an unbelievable reversal of fortune to even begin to climb back to the pre DA borders, never mind the 3025 borders (which I think is a major pipe dream).

Unless this ilClan malarkey comes out swinging and crushes the DC/CC whilst simultaneously boosting the FedSuns.

Kitsune413

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #107 on: 30 May 2013, 16:41:30 »
Its kind of a catch 22. You want to beat the other successor states, if you double your size you can easily gobble up the rest of the Inner Sphere. But for everyone else, if another state doubles their size they are going to get gobbled up.

Quote
There is no darker moment in history than this point for the Federated Suns and House Davion.


You mean no more awesome time for the Federated Suns. This is going to be amazing.  :)
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #108 on: 30 May 2013, 17:03:47 »
You mean no more awesome time for the Federated Suns. This is going to be amazing.  :)

+1.

Kurita fans had a similar moment during the Clan invasion storyline.  Only, we had to watch our faction survive because Hanse decided to allow it.

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #109 on: 30 May 2013, 17:21:02 »
It wasn't going to happen. Caleb's reign was doomed from the start due to his personal problems, and one way or another was going to result in the same thing. Utter failure.

I would say the power of narrativium rather than anything to do with his personal problems per say. Mind you the personal problems make him a target of narrativium in a narrative driven universe.

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #110 on: 30 May 2013, 17:22:34 »
You'll see your comeback from the edge of the abyss and it won't be 'thanks' to anyone else.

In the end, the FedSuns is just too big to fail. Or is it? Stay tuned folks. Same Bat time, same Bat channel.

In all semi-seriousness, the Cappies have done the whole comeback thing, and the League has done it like a champ. Now it's time for the FedSuns (to do it again) and the Commonwealth to make the personal comeback tour a reality. 


 
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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #111 on: 30 May 2013, 17:30:06 »
You're left with the fact that at least he left an heir, Julian, that can hopefully fix all this.
Ah, here's the thing: Julian might be a heir, but a person who is actually running the FedSuns at the moment is Erik Sandoval-Groell - and it seems that he intends to keep it that way. Considering the fact that the regent, as well as many other members of the FedSuns nobility, has certain doubts about Julian, the fresh First Prince of New Avalon may be forced out of the picture even before he can start 'fixing' those three invasions.

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Suralin

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #112 on: 30 May 2013, 17:34:05 »
the fresh First Prince of New Avalon

Dangit, I misread that, and now the Bel Air theme's in my head! ;D

Kitsune413

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #113 on: 30 May 2013, 18:02:31 »
Dangit, I misread that, and now the Bel Air theme's in my head! ;D

Me too.

My money is on Julian. Literally, he owes us three planets.

Also. Callandre Kell for first princess!
« Last Edit: 30 May 2013, 18:05:56 by Kitsune413 »
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SCC

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #114 on: 30 May 2013, 18:21:11 »
Dangit, I misread that, and now the Bel Air theme's in my head! ;D
I think you were supposed to misread it

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #115 on: 30 May 2013, 18:22:09 »
Ah, here's the thing: Julian might be a heir, but a person who is actually running the FedSuns at the moment is Erik Sandoval-Groell - and it seems that he intends to keep it that way. Considering the fact that the regent, as well as many other members of the FedSuns nobility, has certain doubts about Julian, the fresh First Prince of New Avalon may be forced out of the picture even before he can start 'fixing' those three invasions.

Hm...here's a thought: what would the Suns be like without a Davion on the throne? I think that could be interesting. Someone else ruling for a generation or two.

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Nav_Alpha

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #116 on: 30 May 2013, 18:28:09 »
Ah, here's the thing: Julian might be a heir, but a person who is actually running the FedSuns at the moment is Erik Sandoval-Groell - and it seems that he intends to keep it that way. Considering the fact that the regent, as well as many other members of the FedSuns nobility, has certain doubts about Julian, the fresh First Prince of New Avalon may be forced out of the picture even before he can start 'fixing' those three invasions.

One imagines Erik Sandoval-Groell is pretty keen to keep his position at the top. Things might become very interesting for Julian when he returns.

That said - if he can beat back the CapCon AND the Snakes he will build a serious personality cult around himself and becoming a national hero.
That is if Erik allows him to


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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #117 on: 30 May 2013, 18:31:23 »
Hm...here's a thought: what would the Suns be like without a Davion on the throne? I think that could be interesting. Someone else ruling for a generation or two.

Don't think it'll happen for two out of game reasons. 1 The FedSuns have always been "House Davion" and the fans would be confused and peeved if that changed. 2 I think they are setting up some politics. Julian swoops in and saves the day, gets the title First Prince, and Sandoval? He's pretty ticked and rightly so. He's been desperately holding things together and this guy just comes along at the end and takes all the credit. Instant tension - likely put aside until the fronts are stabilised. Then, politics. Even without the title Sandoval's very powerful.

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #118 on: 30 May 2013, 18:34:35 »
And what if he had won? O:-)
"The First Prince is down"
"No I'm not, I'm right here!"
"I say again he died in battle."
"I'm perfectly fine! You aren't listening. Mason you tell them."
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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #119 on: 30 May 2013, 18:46:53 »
@Acolyte Well, all the other house's have had non-main family rulers. Maybe it's time for the Suns to.

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