Author Topic: TRO 3145--Federated Suns  (Read 187156 times)

StCptMara

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #840 on: 06 June 2013, 04:38:38 »
I'm no native speaker, but I'm pretty sure I did not say what you claim I said.
So please don't put words in my mouth I didn't say, thank you.

What I said is that there is no empiric data to suggest what the "unvocal majority" of FedSuns supporters think.
If you require that data, then please by all means, just start a poll.

And Kitsune's comment was about those people who have an outlook different from the, for a while, very vocal but
small group that are hostile to CGL coming out of wherever they were talking to come up here and speak in counter
to that loud group.  Frankly, I cannot believe that any group of fans have such an unhealthy fixation with their faction
that they would just outright rage-quit over their faction getting hurt, or, heck, getting destroyed in something that
is just a game.
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RyuWanderfalke

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #841 on: 06 June 2013, 04:45:15 »
Maybe you're right with the unhealthy fixation, though I have to admit I would also have quite some problems to motivate me for this setting if the LyrCom would get outright wiped from the face of the IS as conclusion of the Melissa II queen of all wastrels arc.

What bugged me about Kitsune's comment simply was the attitude that he implied. My stance on this equals rather "If there's a supposed nonvocal majority and you have no data about it, then don't presume to know what they think or even speak for them as a whole."
And I think that is a fair point.

Coldwyn

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #842 on: 06 June 2013, 04:50:08 »
That part of the discussion is getting stale. As long as the only argument the nay-sayers can bring forward is "author fiat" there is no need for discussion as that can be ignored. But I´m quite happy to see that there´re seemingly more people around who´re up for a challange than those who whine.
Now, please, can we go on discussing the possible loot (yea, that´s low, can´t help it)nice equipment in this TRO?

Ok, can´t help but answering that either:
And Kitsune's comment was about those people who have an outlook different from the, for a while, very vocal but
small group that are hostile to CGL coming out of wherever they were talking to come up here and speak in counter
to that loud group.  Frankly, I cannot believe that any group of fans have such an unhealthy fixation with their faction
that they would just outright rage-quit over their faction getting hurt, or, heck, getting destroyed in something that
is just a game.

That fixation is quite understandable. Blame the media, if you want to, but whole swaths of the population are being schooled to react to certain qualities of a faction and identify them as good, heroic, going hand in hand with a glorified version of their self-image. It´s like a set of hard-coded tropes or memes coming into action here: This are the good guys. They´re bright, nice, beatiful people with a moral compas and superior motives. They must act, not react and bring sunshine to the world. This also excludes talking about the cost of that outlook, in money as well as in lives taken, et al. Going an a crusade for "good" and proving that moral superiority is a high point and very essential to those folk that want to be part of that action.
it´s not necessarily that i´m immoral of character, i just don´t take great stock in the morality of others, that´s all

Sharpnel

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #843 on: 06 June 2013, 04:52:20 »
The Destrier needs another trailer, one loaded with LRM's and 'Mech Mortars to support it, it also needs TAG (Seriously, if you're lugging two Arrow IV with you all the time why aren't you equipped with TAG?)
Using TAG would require you being 'in contact' with the enemy. As a long-range fire support unit, the last thing you want to see up close is the enemy. That's why you have TAG-equipped scout vehicles/Mechs.
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SCC

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #844 on: 06 June 2013, 05:01:28 »
Using TAG would require you being 'in contact' with the enemy. As a long-range fire support unit, the last thing you want to see up close is the enemy. That's why you have TAG-equipped scout vehicles/Mechs.
As has been been pointed out before this the Destrier uses Long Tom CANNONS, which have a maximum range of twenty hexes, not much more than TAG

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #845 on: 06 June 2013, 05:05:10 »
As has been been pointed out before this the Destrier uses Long Tom CANNONS, which have a maximum range of twenty hexes, not much more than TAG

And that still misses the point.
Using the Destrier to smash fortified bunkers should keep that immobile thing out of Tag range, too. So yea, mounting it´s own Tag will enable the tank to spot for his Ballista, whilst bringing it in TAG range itself, which is a losing proporsition.
it´s not necessarily that i´m immoral of character, i just don´t take great stock in the morality of others, that´s all

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #846 on: 06 June 2013, 06:29:43 »
Using TAG would require you being 'in contact' with the enemy. As a long-range fire support unit, the last thing you want to see up close is the enemy. That's why you have TAG-equipped scout vehicles/Mechs.
I'd rather have it, just so I can have the option. Sometimes the evil god Murphy strikes and stuff goes horribly, horribly wrong.
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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #847 on: 06 June 2013, 06:34:24 »
And that still misses the point.
Using the Destrier to smash fortified bunkers should keep that immobile thing out of Tag range, too. So yea, mounting it´s own Tag will enable the tank to spot for his Ballista, whilst bringing it in TAG range itself, which is a losing proporsition.

And what if, you know, 'Mechs shrug off the damage and charge to kill the thing that's killing their fortified bunkers full of their friends?

The argument against having TAG is akin to saying "You shouldn't mount a machine gun in a 'Mech because it'll encourage it to close to 1 hex to shoot" and that's not bloody likely is it? One ton. For a 200 ton monstrosity. One ton could deliver the Ballista's payload just in case it needed to.

It's not that big of a stretch to imagine other units wanting to close in on this.

Now, having just defended that, let me counter it: Arrow IV non-homing missiles.

Busting bunkers is all well and good, but you'll want some non-homies for your Arrow IVs even for that duty. Direct Fire rules will let you engage any target 17 hexes and under, just a bit more than a TAG, without any range mods or anything. You can even indirectly fire within 17 hexes if that unit that you just want to kill is trying to keep away from you. The only mods to this are your own movement mods.

That's superior to hoping to lock on with a TAG first at long range.

TL;DR - TAG would be nice, but non-homing Arrow IVs (or other types) are superior.

SCC

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #848 on: 06 June 2013, 06:46:13 »
To find the tonnage for it I'd suggest dropping the infantry bay by a ton, that's enough for a normal foot platoon and the only infantry I'd really want this thing to be lugging around is combat engineers to dig it in probably.

As for BA, they can normally move faster than the Destrier, and I'm sure there's Mag Clamp ones that can be used if you MUST have BA along for the ride or failing that just say that it's got handhelds like an Omni (There's got to be all sorts of things on this thing for people to climb up on it and why are those still Omni exclusive after all this time) and really two squads is enough for most people

Istal_Devalis

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #849 on: 06 June 2013, 06:52:22 »
If you're bound and determined to have it carry TAG as opposed to just having a TAG equipped BA or scout partner up with it, it's got a trailer hitch. Hook up a trailer with TAG equipped.

SCC

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #850 on: 06 June 2013, 06:59:19 »
The problem with using BA equipped with TAG is that it's rather fragile compared to the Destrier, not that I'm saying not take, just that relying on it isn't the best idea

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #851 on: 06 June 2013, 07:28:07 »
Look up Schurzen on wikipedia

Schurzen didn't work.
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wantec

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #852 on: 06 June 2013, 07:53:01 »
I'd use that shield at long range, actually. Stick with the guns from the opposite arm for as long as possible until the enemies get too close or the shield gets shot up. Only then do you go passive or inacgive, and let rip with your full arsenal.
I just hate the idea of having a Clan ERLL with a targeting computer and not using it at long range. Since it doesn't have the HS for all the long range guns, maybe alternate turns between active & passive so you can fire that ERLL every other turn.
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Martius

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #853 on: 06 June 2013, 07:55:35 »
Schurzen didn't work.

Panzer Schürze= armour skirting in english IIRC

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #854 on: 06 June 2013, 08:16:17 »
I just hate the idea of having a Clan ERLL with a targeting computer and not using it at long range. Since it doesn't have the HS for all the long range guns, maybe alternate turns between active & passive so you can fire that ERLL every other turn.

I suppose...alternate between 1 PPC and 2 ERLL on one turn, then 1 PPC and 1 ERLL the next turn while hiding behind the shield and cooling down?

Schurzen didn't work.

It didn't? Huh. I was under the impression that it did to an extent, but I will take the word of someone far more educated on the subject than I.

The what now? I'm referring to something completely different.

Edit: But yeah, Scorpions would work better than Goblins. Let's see...Hunters as MT, Heavy Hover APCs as GEV-PCs...

It's a shame that so few people are indeed getting the Ogre references... :-\
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ColBosch

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #855 on: 06 June 2013, 08:29:10 »
It didn't? Huh. I was under the impression that it did to an extent, but I will take the word of someone far more educated on the subject than I.

It didn't work due to typical German cost-cutting measures at that point in the war - it wasn't strong enough to actually cause shells to detonate ahead of time - and because, well, technology marched very quickly ahead during those bloody years. The theory was sound, and I have friends alive today thanks to RPG cages on modern Stryker IFVs.
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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #856 on: 06 June 2013, 08:39:00 »
Huh. This forum never ceases to educate me. O0
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RogueK

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #857 on: 06 June 2013, 08:46:47 »
That part of the discussion is getting stale. As long as the only argument the nay-sayers can bring forward is "author fiat" there is no need for discussion as that can be ignored. But I´m quite happy to see that there´re seemingly more people around who´re up for a challange than those who whine.
Now, please, can we go on discussing the possible loot (yea, that´s low, can´t help it)nice equipment in this TRO?

Ok, can´t help but answering that either:
That fixation is quite understandable. Blame the media, if you want to, but whole swaths of the population are being schooled to react to certain qualities of a faction and identify them as good, heroic, going hand in hand with a glorified version of their self-image. It´s like a set of hard-coded tropes or memes coming into action here: This are the good guys. They´re bright, nice, beatiful people with a moral compas and superior motives. They must act, not react and bring sunshine to the world. This also excludes talking about the cost of that outlook, in money as well as in lives taken, et al. Going an a crusade for "good" and proving that moral superiority is a high point and very essential to those folk that want to be part of that action.

I'd call it way older than modern media. Just look at sports team fans. A good team often has a lot more fans than a bad team. An awful lot of people want to back a winner. And a lot more people while it doesn't neccesarily need to be the absolute winner, don't want to back a loser.

While a lot of people are annoyed by the ones that bitch about it. I much prefer them to the ones that do outright quit or change sides because their faction of choice is now in a much weaker position. Whether they do it quietly or with a great big declaration first doesn't really matter.

As far as I'm concerned people are allowed to bitch about it and the ones treating said bitching as a deathly sin are significantly worse for the fandom.

That is if they attack the character of the bitching fans themselves. Attacking misconceptions or faulty facts that lead them to that position is fine with me.


On a more in universe note:

As far as I'm concerned the Fedsuns have had one spectacular victory followed by a couple of big setbacks to undo the absolutely biggest gains (in BT there is very much such a thing as too big to succeed for a faction). And the rest of the time they've merely done middle of the road. Whenever a big event is coming along we're assured to be hit, but it's rarely the worst or the least hit. We *MIGHT* have gotten off the easiest in the Jihad. I am frankly not sure exactly how to divvy up the damage. I know the FWL were by far the worst hit, but beyond that I don't really know.

Generally right in the middle when it comes to success/failure, with the always precent saving grace that we get to participate in virtually all the big events. Major draw for somebody like me who wants action.

So. We've not been losing since 3030, but we've not really been winning either. We don't seem to always end up in a dominant position. Just prior to the Jihad I'd say the undisputed winner of 3050 to 3067 was the Free Worlds League. Who then proceeded to get crotchkicked so hard they flew to pieces.

And as long as we're around for the next fight and not rendered irrellevant I'm fine with that. Sure I'll entertain the occasional AU with the FedCom never falling (In Character: "I blame lousy ungrateful Lyrans"  :P), but I think every fan has the occasional power fantasy with their faction.

The Capellans take second place, but I admit that this was more rebuilding after the previous crotchkicking rather than going from a decent position to pretty much in position to be dominant over all of the IS (Just LOOK at that warship fleet!) if not for certain friends of Toasters everywhere.

I don't like the capellans, I think the way their recovery was written made their victories look cheap. And the changes the faction underwent through Xin Sheng made the faction significantly less likeable. And takes on them in some recent fiction is downright grating. But I will admit that assuming they are a guaranteed faction they were too small to fail. That they couldn't take real setbacks anymore so if they were to be protected from wipeout/irrellevancy they pretty much couldn't lose anymore.

Now though that excuse/protection is gone and I hope to see them get a crotchkicking preferrably on par with what the FWL got. >:D

RyuWanderfalke

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #858 on: 06 June 2013, 08:58:28 »
It didn't? Huh. I was under the impression that it did to an extent, but I will take the word of someone far more educated on the subject than I.

In German it's "Schürzen" with an Umlaut, not "Schurzen", maybe that's why. ;)

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #859 on: 06 June 2013, 08:59:07 »
I'm aware of that, I'm just too lazy to dig up ASCII codes sometimes.
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3rdCrucisLancers

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #860 on: 06 June 2013, 09:00:23 »
I'm confident that the umlaut didn't provide any additional protection against HEAT weapons.
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RyuWanderfalke

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #861 on: 06 June 2013, 09:01:15 »
I'm confident that the umlaut didn't provide any additional protection against HEAT weapons.

:D

Yeah, I would agree on that part.

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #862 on: 06 June 2013, 09:01:37 »
You never know. Grammatical straws and hypervelocity camels and all that.
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Banzai

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #863 on: 06 June 2013, 09:14:15 »
I'm confident that the umlaut didn't provide any additional protection against HEAT weapons.

Dude, a Heavy Metal umlaut will protect against ANYTHING!   [rockon]  Well, maybe not a repetitive injury to the neck...

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #864 on: 06 June 2013, 09:15:28 »
... Just prior to the Jihad I'd say the undisputed winner of 3050 to 3067 was the Free Worlds League. Who then proceeded to get crotchkicked so hard they flew to pieces.
...

While I don´t disagree with everything you say, I would like to point out what me, personally, irked about the end of the FWL.

It wasn´t a huge crotchkick that killed us. The FWL died with a whimper, not a big bang. (no pun intended) It was a bad death.

If anything the end of the League was a huge facepalm. Our leader a fraud, our vaunted fleet ridden with treason, our industrial might useless, our allies, everyone was expecting to fool us, fooled us, our enemies, everyone expected to fall upon us, fell upon us, the grugdingly accepted mainstreaming for the sake of power not stopping the dissolution at all (quite to the contrary!) and worst of all, no dignity to be found anywhere.
On top of that we were the only ones loosing our faction. At the start I was quite intrigued about the petty kingdom scenario after the Jihad until I realized it wasn´t a general tendency, no new way for the whole setting, but just the shortest straw in the Inner Sphere.

What I liked though, was the dirty and petty search for a scapegoat. Considering how shameful and stupid the end of the League was it was only a fitting eulogy. It was fun.
And we all know the Mariks, true and false alike, were to blame. It is known!O0

I'm confident that the umlaut didn't provide any additional protection against HEAT weapons.
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« Last Edit: 06 June 2013, 09:19:23 by Molossian Dog IIC »

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #865 on: 06 June 2013, 09:27:05 »
Prey Seeker doesn't remind me of the Alien face hugger as much as it does the parasites that fell of the monster in Cloverfield.

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/attachment.php?s=57485dc5fa87562a0a97badd21bca314&attachmentid=14007&d=1220846264

wantec

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #866 on: 06 June 2013, 09:57:13 »
I suppose...alternate between 1 PPC and 2 ERLL on one turn, then 1 PPC and 1 ERLL the next turn while hiding behind the shield and cooling down?
No need to skip back as far as you did, it's got 17 Clan doubles. You can fire all three 1 turn for 39+movement heat, then only fire the ERPPC and one ERLL the next turn for 27+movement heat. If you stick to only walking (or run one turn, stand still the next) after one cycle you'll be back to 0 heat.
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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #867 on: 06 June 2013, 10:03:31 »
I think we misread each other, because you seem to be saying exactly the same thing I did. Turn one, fire the three big guns while ignoring the shield. Turn two, hide behind the shield while firing the two big guns on the opposite arm, allowing you to cool down. Lather, rinse repeat.

Of course, if you want to see truly terrifying firepower, park a Dig Lord behind the Black Knight, and hose it down with coolant. By the time anything gets close to that combo and survives, they'll be easy meat for the Dig Lord switching to acid ammo. }:)
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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #868 on: 06 June 2013, 10:36:58 »
I'm confident that the umlaut didn't provide any additional protection against HEAT weapons.

And thus we learn why the Rätte was doomed to failure :\


Anywho....  Is it odd that the Sea Fox doesn't really seem to be designed for under water combat? no torpedos, no energy weapons etc et al.

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Re: TRO 3145--Federated Suns
« Reply #869 on: 06 June 2013, 10:40:07 »
It looks like it's meant to infiltrate via waterways and attack coastline objectives.

Short story long: It's the creature from the Black Lagoon, and it's come for the Dragon's ASF pilots. Among others.
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