Any -major- periphery powers?

[marcussmythe]

Are there ever detailed, or hinted at, any large/powerful 'deep periphery' powers, other than the Clans?

We know that if you take 6 million people and 300 years, and remember to engage in local thermonuclear war on at least an occasion or two, you can build a group capable of invading and nearly conquering the I.S.  Given that, is there any inkling of other major powers out in the deep periphery?

If not, do we have any indication as to why?

[jeyar]

Does the Rim Worlds count? I mean every Lyrian/Clan/periphery sourcebook it turns out they were bigger and made more goodies for others to pick up than we ever thought of before - by now their territory (but not population) must have exceeded that of about half the IS... :D

[Biggles Antilles]

I think if you start delving into the whys and hows of the Periphery you'll go mad they really wax and wane in accordance with the story, and the story for the most part is the Inner Sphere. The Taurians represent the biggest but as far as canon goes I don't know of another great big fish floating out there in the blue.

[Moonsword]

Are there ever detailed, or hinted at, any large/powerful 'deep periphery' powers, other than the Clans?

Not really, no.  There are some vague hints that the Rim Worlds was more extensive than we knew but the RWR is dead.  The closest thing to a major power out in the Deep Periphery is the Imperio and they're not far removed from the Clans.  Whether the Homeworld Clans are going to leave them alive is an unresolved question at this time.

We know that if you take 6 million people and 300 years, and remember to engage in local thermonuclear war on at least an occasion or two, you can build a group capable of invading and nearly conquering the I.S.  Given that, is there any inkling of other major powers out in the deep periphery?

You're forgetting that vast amounts of war materiel, naval firepower, mobile shipyards, cutting-edge Hegemony research, and other things that set the Clans apart.  The Exodus was a singular event in the setting's history.  They are very much the exception and the Clans were driven by the needs of the story.  If you want to see a more typical Periphery success story, look up the Hanseatic League.

If not, do we have any indication as to why?

The story is focused on the Inner Sphere.  The Deep Periphery is a distraction and a sideshow to the main action.

I think if you start delving into the whys and hows of the Periphery you'll go mad they really wax and wane in accordance with the story, and the story for the most part is the Inner Sphere. The Taurians represent the biggest but as far as canon goes I don't know of another great big fish floating out there in the blue.

Mostly accurate but these days the big fish in the Periphery is the Magistracy of Canopus.  Arguably, the Raven Alliance is the winner of that prize, but they're not precisely a Periphery power anymore in a lot of ways.

The Taurian Concordat was devastated by the events leading into and during the Jihad era.

[marcussmythe]

Not really, no.  There are some vague hints that the Rim Worlds was more extensive than we knew but the RWR is dead.  The closest thing to a major power out in the Deep Periphery is the Imperio and they're not far removed from the Clans.  Whether the Homeworld Clans are going to leave them alive is an unresolved question at this time.

You're forgetting that vast amounts of war materiel, naval firepower, mobile shipyards, cutting-edge Hegemony research, and other things that set the Clans apart.  The Exodus was a singular event in the setting's history.  They are very much the exception and the Clans were driven by the needs of the story.  If you want to see a more typical Periphery success story, look up the Hanseatic League.

The story is focused on the Inner Sphere.  The Deep Periphery is a distraction and a sideshow to the main action.

Mostly accurate but these days the big fish in the Periphery is the Magistracy of Canopus.  Arguably, the Raven Alliance is the winner of that prize, but they're not precisely a Periphery power anymore in a lot of ways.

The Taurian Concordat was devastated by the events leading into and during the Jihad era.

1.)  The Clans:  While certainly having a leg up on military technology, I dont see it providing a huge overall advantage over any other well-planned and well funded colony expedition.  Indeed, the mere fact that they managed to support such a huge military, while growing in economic and population terms, suggests that ideas such as 'maintenance' and 'tooth-to-tail' ratios are radically different in the BT universe.

2.)  In General:  Story concerns seem to dictate that nothing out there distract from the traditional focus of the game.  The closest thing weve seen to a non-IS focused 'major event' is the Wars of Reaving.. explained both by the popularity of the clans and its potential long-term effects on matters in the IS.  (I suppose we needed the clans distracted to explain why they didnt roll over a Jihad-distracted IS).  Also, it helps that the WoR was a very cool story.

3.)  Lacking organic contraindicators, I feel reasonably comfortable going ahead with my plans for some AU periphery factions for my local gaming group.  So long as the clans are treated as a rough 'upper bound' in military potential and growth for their starting population and time, it should be possible to cook up something that is interesting without straining the setting-inherit suspension of disbelief.

My thanks to everyone for their thoughts and comments!

[Korzon77]

I think that there could be, but it won't ever be canonized. The clans were special in some respects but equally, before the Ameris coup, rich men could and did muster fleets of hundreds (or more) of jumpships and in at leat a few cases decided to found their own personal kingdoms.  It's not at all unlikely that a few were smarter and were successful.  Heck, we know it can be done, a'la the Tauran concordat which held off the SLDF with a fleet that was superior to most of hte actual house lords.  They lost, but they were certainly a "major power."

So why won't we ever see them?

1. Distance.  The Clans invaded for ideological, not pratical reasons and there's nothing the IS has that an advanced society couldn't make for itself. Sure, you may get the guy who wants genuine Tharkad snow globes, but he's not going to travel 1500 LY to get it. He may, at most mention he wants it to a trader who tells another trader, and 10 years later, some guy hears that thee's someone interested in this and started the process reversed, selling snow globes to at rader who is heading in that direction etc.

In other words, most practical contact would be much like Rome and China-- very indirect and with nobody really all that concerned bout who is on the other end.

2.  Practical matters. We have yet to have a sourcebook on the Tortuga pirates, Fitvelt groups, etc, etc, etc. We have yet to have any single time period so completely covered that people don't want anymore books. But if you add another major deep periphery group you have to have likely at the minimum a "house book" talking about them and thier enemies, a tech readout, some adventures, etc, etc, etc.  Some peopel will love it, but the ones who have been waiting for their IS sourcebook forever will neither like it, nor honestly have much use for it.

3.  Foreclosing creativity. This is a big one for me. The more you talk about these regions the harder it is for players to fit in their own creations. If we find out that beyond the OA there is a nation the size of the Draconis combine, it might make things ab it hard if you want to put your own people there. By not movnig out of the IS and near periphery, the writers give us, the players more of a free range for our own work.

[marcussmythe]

*nods*  And I suppose I had failed to see it in those terms.. the intent to offer opportunity for, rather than foreclosing, creativity.

Ive got several ideas for factions.. once I get them in a more developed state, I'll post them over on the fan boards.  Thanks again!

[DarthRads]

I think that there could be, but it won't ever be canonized. The clans were special in some respects but equally, before the Ameris coup, rich men could and did muster fleets of hundreds (or more) of jumpships and in at leat a few cases decided to found their own personal kingdoms.  It's not at all unlikely that a few were smarter and were successful.  Heck, we know it can be done, a'la the Tauran concordat which held off the SLDF with a fleet that was superior to most of hte actual house lords.  They lost, but they were certainly a "major power."

So why won't we ever see them?

1. Distance.  The Clans invaded for ideological, not pratical reasons and there's nothing the IS has that an advanced society couldn't make for itself. Sure, you may get the guy who wants genuine Tharkad snow globes, but he's not going to travel 1500 LY to get it. He may, at most mention he wants it to a trader who tells another trader, and 10 years later, some guy hears that thee's someone interested in this and started the process reversed, selling snow globes to at rader who is heading in that direction etc.

In other words, most practical contact would be much like Rome and China-- very indirect and with nobody really all that concerned bout who is on the other end.

2.  Practical matters. We have yet to have a sourcebook on the Tortuga pirates, Fitvelt groups, etc, etc, etc. We have yet to have any single time period so completely covered that people don't want anymore books. But if you add another major deep periphery group you have to have likely at the minimum a "house book" talking about them and thier enemies, a tech readout, some adventures, etc, etc, etc.  Some peopel will love it, but the ones who have been waiting for their IS sourcebook forever will neither like it, nor honestly have much use for it.

3.  Foreclosing creativity. This is a big one for me. The more you talk about these regions the harder it is for players to fit in their own creations. If we find out that beyond the OA there is a nation the size of the Draconis combine, it might make things ab it hard if you want to put your own people there. By not movnig out of the IS and near periphery, the writers give us, the players more of a free range for our own work.

Point 3 is a particularly good...point? That seems redundant! Anyway, the DP is where you can let your own imagination run wild...

[Biggles Antilles]

The Taurian Concordat was devastated by the events leading into and during the Jihad era.

 :(

I REALLY NEED NEW SOURCEBOOKS!

[foxbat]

:(

I REALLY NEED NEW SOURCEBOOKS!

You should find your info in the following sources : Leading to the Jihad,and  during the Jihad

Some of the books may be out of print now in DTF, but you'll always be able to grab PDFs.  ;)

[Biggles Antilles]

You should find your info in the following sources : Leading to the Jihad,and  during the Jihad

Some of the books may be out of print now in DTF, but you'll always be able to grab PDFs.  ;)

Best news I've had in ages!  O0

[Batman]

No one is conquering the Inner Sphere. The Clans still have a ways to go on that, but there are some House-sized powers in the Preiphery. For Outer Sphere powers you got the Magistracy of Canopus, Taurian Concordat, and Marian Hegemony. Further out are the Hanseatic League, Nueva Castille, and the Umayyad Caliphate. The Hanseatic League is probably the only faction of significance out in the depths of space, but distance keeps them far out of most conflicts, and they wouldn't have the strength to conquer any of the Outer Sphere nations, let alone one of the Houses.

[Colt Ward]

Actually Batman you are a bit behind . . . Castile and the Caliphate no longer exist.  Both had a visit by Scorpions and their absorbed Hellion henchmen . . .

Now the Imperio is trying to pull their tech up by the bootstraps while looking over their shoulder into the deep black.  Forces run the gamut from Clan Omnis to early WoB & SL gear to Retro construction.  Though playing that invasion could be fun . . . every piece of Clan gear destroyed is something that will be years before it is replaced.  Would that desperation lead the touman to put aside dueling in a effort to blitz the defenders?

[Wrayth]

:(

I REALLY NEED NEW SOURCEBOOKS!

Synopsis (as best as I can remember): WoB plunges an asteroid into Taurus.  Taurians think it's the Davions (because they always think it's the Davions) and attack the Federated Suns.  Planets are contested by both sides.  Taurians use their own nukes and a WarShip provided by the WoB.  Mercs employed by the Suns retaliate.

By the end of the Jihad, the Concordat is in possession of some Davion worlds, and the Suns are in possession of some Taurian worlds.  Now that the Federated Suns isn't fighting for its life against the Word of Blake, they finally have a chance to deal with their aggressive southern neighbor and attack in force.  Much of the Concordat is either conquered or trashed.  The breakaway Calderon Protectorate brokers a peace treaty between the two which fixes the borders in their current state.  The Taurian WarShip is turned over to the Protectorate.  The Taurian leader focuses efforts on rebuilding the military instead of rebuilding shattered worlds, which, ironically, makes the military recovery extremely slow.

[Aldous]

So what Taurian Planets were ceded to FedScums? Which planets did Taurians get?

[rebs]

Taureans lost lots of border worlds. Pretty much all those worlds spinward of the Hyades bunched along their old border are now Davion planets.   

But they retook the Pleiades Cluster, which they had lost to the wretched Davions in the Reunification War centuries ago.  Problem is, the people of the Pleiades see themselves more as Fed Suns citizens than former Taureans.  So it's not really going all that great for them. 

The Calderon Protectorate, as small as it is, is where the original spirit of this faction is.  The rest is a war-torn mess.     

[Wrayth]

The Calderon Protectorate, as small as it is, is where the original spirit of this faction is.  The rest is a war-torn mess.     

To put "war-torn mess" in perspective, the military factories on Perdition and Taurus itself were trashed.

EDIT:  Actually, I just checked the map again, and Perdition is now in Davion hands.

[Offworlder]

Well the Canopians may have something hidden beyond their borders. Even IE Expeditions don't seem so sure what's out there. Having said that, there is plenty of empty space in the area between the Canopians and the Hansa for more major states. However, I doubt we'll ever see anything else, at least for the time being.

[BrokenMnemonic]

Unless IE are deliberately covering up the existence of a state for some reason...

[Offworlder]

True. Then IE would essentially take Comstar's role if it starts to keep hidden information  }:)

[rebs]

I imagine the anti-spinward reaches coreward toward and past Hansa space as buzzing with activity, we just can't see it.   The Aquila Rift is described like Kerensky's Veil times ten. 

The Green Ghosts have to be coming from somewhere around there, though more coreward.  Probably as deep or deeper than the Hansa.  Just my guess.

[Prince of Darkness]

I imagine the anti-spinward reaches coreward toward and past Hansa space as buzzing with activity, we just can't see it.   The Aquila Rift is described like Kerensky's Veil times ten. 

The Green Ghosts have to be coming from somewhere around there, though more coreward.  Probably as deep or deeper than the Hansa.  Just my guess.

Well, space is big.  It wouldn't be wrong to say they're based in a system they just didn't notice, like the one Word guy who said the Suns already found their "hidden" world.

[Red Pins]

...I guess I'm a biased, but I love the idea of more factions.  The big, empty-seeming space at the bottom of the maps past the MoC and TC/CP just gives me an itch, since its where I put my own AU groups, but apparently Herb the BT-line dev is intent on reducing the number of factions to something more managable.

[Offworlder]

Well, space is big.  It wouldn't be wrong to say they're based in a system they just didn't notice, like the one Word guy who said the Suns already found their "hidden" world.

Well, probably the Green Ghosts come from the 'silent' part of the RWR, which is very close to the present Lyran border. having said that, there was speculation in the past that even the Hansa planets might have had an RWR connection, which is not that far fetched, given that a bunch of exiles from the Lyran Commonwealth decided to call it home. My guess is that they knew where they were going.

Frankly, in this part of space, there may be more to discover. The IE maps indicate that they have extensively reconned the borders of the Aquila rift, which is essentially bordered by Hansa (or closeby like outpost 27) territories, and now on the other side, the Axumite Providence. Thus they must have barely scratched the area behind the Rift proper, even if they have deep range colonies in that direction.

BTW I don't discount that IE is keeping hidden information in this and other areas

[verybad]

Well the Canopians may have something hidden beyond their borders. Even IE Expeditions don't seem so sure what's out there. Having said that, there is plenty of empty space in the area between the Canopians and the Hansa for more major states. However, I doubt we'll ever see anything else, at least for the time being.

Canopus' south side is where Shadowrun and Battletech will join. They've got Trolls, Elves, Sorcerers, and Dragons. Just need to import some Ninjas from the DC and they'll be ready.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Well, space is big.  It wouldn't be wrong to say they're based in a system they just didn't notice, like the one Word guy who said the Suns already found their "hidden" world.

If the Suns had already found their "hidden" world, they wouldn't be fielding barebones Mech battalions after the Jihad

[Red Pins]

I'm sure there are other reasons besides that.  Something about replacing the massive losses after the civil war and Jihad?


I wonder why there hasn't been a coordinated effort written about in the fluff, did it just happen in the DA and it was taken for granted?

[Amaris Fan Club]

The deep periphery is filled with Lyran traders who will go 2,000 light years to make a kroner,
and Hansa who will follow them home to get it back.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I'm sure there are other reasons besides that.  Something about replacing the massive losses after the civil war and Jihad?


I wonder why there hasn't been a coordinated effort written about in the fluff, did it just happen in the DA and it was taken for granted?

Nah, even the massive losses of the civil war and Jihad would be easily replaced if the AFFS had Taussen. It was said to have an output greater than any other Suns world(trumping New Avalon or Kathil!) so that's gotta be Hesperus II or near Terra-like levels, so the post Blackout AFFS would've been fielding all-RCT forces instead of those poor LCTs that keep getting whipped. The abundance of Blakist designs produced by that world would also be a big screamer to the Suns' neighbours.

[Archangel]

If the Suns had already found their "hidden" world, they wouldn't be fielding barebones Mech battalions after the Jihad

Not necessarily.  After all we don't know for sure the nature of their "hidden" world.  It is suspected of being the location of a Mech production facility but that could be Blakist misinformation.

Nah, even the massive losses of the civil war and Jihad would be easily replaced if the AFFS had Taussen. It was said to have an output greater than any other Suns world(trumping New Avalon or Kathil!) so that's gotta be Hesperus II or near Terra-like levels, so the post Blackout AFFS would've been fielding all-RCT forces instead of those poor LCTs that keep getting whipped. The abundance of Blakist designs produced by that world would also be a big screamer to the Suns' neighbours.

Not really.  By the end of the Jihad, the AFFS was not only running out of Mechs but MechWarriors as well.  Besides combat losses, at the end of the Jihad a good percentage of the MechWarriors still serving were walking wounded (whether physical or mental injuries) or had their tours extended multiple times.  Only the war, the state's desperate need for soldiers and, for some, their sense of loyalty and duty (or revenge) kept them in uniform.  Even with the alleged manufacturing facilities on Taussen it would take years, if not decades before the AFFS was able to replace all those MechWarriors.