Are there too many TROs?

[Orion]

I tend to think there are too many canon mech types, especially variants.  I want to know what the main production lines are, but see zero need for the prototypes, experimentals, and one-off Solaris stuff.  The first two should be covered as a fluff text in the relevant unit entries.  The last has no need, as absolutely anything could be a unique Solaris (or battlefield salvage frankenmech), and is better left to letting players come up with their own.  Basically, if only a couple were ever made, they don't deserve to be in a book.

It feels to me like they decide they need a new book, so run up some designs, semi-randomly assign them to factions, and print the sucker.  I'd far rather that they first decide what the factions needs or can make, explain this logic to us, and declare which production lines, if any, are being taken down.  Tell us why we need this nifty new design, when there is already a Stinger or Warhammer that fills the exact same role.

[False Son]

I'm of the exact opposite opinion.  Why keep building new Warhammers and Stingers when they no longer resemble their originals?  Might as well be omnimechs with swappable engines.

[Redman]

As far as mechs are concerned i agree we might have too many TROs. No later than TRO 3085 i couldn't help myself but thinking "Who needs all these bloody new mechs?" From an in-universe point of view there is hardly any reason to develop all these new mechs when a new variant or omni-configuration of an existing mech would do just as fine and cost only a fraction of the development costs.  Often i had the feeling that several new mechs were only there to show-case some new tech from TW and more than one mech from the PP-section was just too far off from the base model for my liking.

It get's worse with the TROs for 3145 but this might have a lot to do with of the new TO and FM 3145 tech with which i am personally not really comfortable with (yet?).

Otoh i still like to see new vehicles, BA and all kinds of ASFs and spaceships. Even new protos are a welcome sight (as long as they don't look like an Erinyes or a Delphyne :P) and more of the rarely explored unit types like super-heavy mechs and vehicles and mobile structures are nice, too. My favourite is the really low-tech stuff and i would like to see more of it. When it comes to the XTRO-line the succession wars, primitives and retro-tech ones were my favorites by far and a full-size TRO full of armed IndustrialMechs and support vehicles, primitive combat vehicles and new types of infantry would be a dream come true.

[Ryumyo]

NO! The more TRO's the merrier! I like new toys to play with and break.  >:D Besides I like seeing the evolutionary advancements of various units from era to era.

[Wrangler]

I just realized something.  There suppose to be a XTRO: Republic.  Does that mean there possiblity of Republic elements of 3145 are going to appear in that publication?  Just like TRO: Prototypes did with XTRO: Clans?

[solmanian]

You can't spend 800 years using only refurbished stingers...

As for DA... Omni are starting to become extinct. I thought all the mechs in IS and CLan were gonna end as omni; apparently they are so expensive that everyone just prefers to build regular mechs. True omnis are more versatile, but you can a full lance for that price. And the economy is pretty much ruined - they're doing it metro-style using ammo for currency...

[SteveRestless]

As for DA... Omni are starting to become extinct.

Not really. the 3145 TROs have brought us a good quantity of new omni chassis. Before those TROs, yeah, it was looking grim, but the omni concept is alive and well.

[solmanian]

Not saying they aren't being used, just that they are still very rare and reserved for commanders, or elite of the elite units.

[SCC]

As for DA... Omni are starting to become extinct. I thought all the mechs in IS and CLan were gonna end as omni; apparently they are so expensive that everyone just prefers to build regular mechs. True omnis are more versatile, but you can a full lance for that price. And the economy is pretty much ruined - they're doing it metro-style using ammo for currency...

The things is that Omni's should be cheaper, especially in the heavier weight classes, this was discussed a while back, but you shouldn't be paying the weight based cost multiplier on podded weapons on an Omni

[dirty harry]

IMHO the 'forced extinction' was a product of the ongoing invention of 'new' battlemech models as well as the near impossibility of clicktech miniatures to be really podable. As far as i know clicktech Omnimechs were set to one specific variant (and it would have needed interchangeable dials to adapt to a new variant).
Omnimechs with usable payloads could have been the death of the TRO series as a well designed Omnimech with dozens of configuration could have replaced an equal number of older mechs and mech configuration. But would we have bought another TRO, if one could say 'i build me a better one based on that Omni'?
In a real world economy away from FASAnomics, quartermasters bureau would have ordered Omnimechs only in order to simplify logistics and production, thereby droping costs of pods and price per unit.
But Battletech is not reality and so we get tons of new battlemechs (sometimes ideas and configurations we never asked for...) instead of Omnimechs and tons of new TROs...

[Weirdo]

Not saying they aren't being used, just that they are still very rare and reserved for commanders, or elite of the elite units.

Source?

[SteveRestless]

Not saying they aren't being used, just that they are still very rare and reserved for commanders, or elite of the elite units.

They seem to be plenty common. FM3145 puts most of the clan frontline clusters somewhere between 40-90% omnis.

[FedComGirl]

A lot more factions means a lot more units. Additionally BT is set up so that there is a lot of cross usage of 'Mechs, not the sort of thing you see in a WW2 naval setting.

Finally a game like that will at least attempt to model the RW differences between pieces of equipment, BT doesn't

Not in a naval setting but ground and air units were used by multiple countries. Captured and ground units were also pressed into service by the enemy. Air units were too but mostly for training and research.

I tend to think there are too many canon mech types, especially variants.  I want to know what the main production lines are, but see zero need for the prototypes, experimentals, and one-off Solaris stuff.  The first two should be covered as a fluff text in the relevant unit entries.  The last has no need, as absolutely anything could be a unique Solaris (or battlefield salvage frankenmech), and is better left to letting players come up with their own.  Basically, if only a couple were ever made, they don't deserve to be in a book.

I for one want to see the prototypes and one off designs because they can be so different from the production version. For example both are F-16 and different.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgVTnDAzh6t6-SYWdVOroimZrrzrPm9B9ZxKZldrLI84Z6wcQV
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmZlUnJuNdOSn05dakN_lhq5gMKcTG9KL1aFTGhfUHdqwlSlyrWQ

Some of the Solaris stuff was unique or limited in production but others were more wide spread. And many could be used on the battlefield. But a TRO for Solaris and Salvage tech would be cool.  :)

It feels to me like they decide they need a new book, so run up some designs, semi-randomly assign them to factions, and print the sucker.  I'd far rather that they first decide what the factions needs or can make, explain this logic to us, and declare which production lines, if any, are being taken down.  Tell us why we need this nifty new design, when there is already a Stinger or Warhammer that fills the exact same role.

It would be nice to know more about the why certain units aren't around or no longer used by certain fractions. But there could be as many reasons as there are mechs. I don't let it bother me.

Otoh i still like to see new vehicles, BA and all kinds of ASFs and spaceships. Even new protos are a welcome sight (as long as they don't look like an Erinyes or a Delphyne :P) and more of the rarely explored unit types like super-heavy mechs and vehicles and mobile structures are nice, too. My favourite is the really low-tech stuff and i would like to see more of it. When it comes to the XTRO-line the succession wars, primitives and retro-tech ones were my favorites by far and a full-size TRO full of armed IndustrialMechs and support vehicles, primitive combat vehicles and new types of infantry would be a dream come true.

I'd totally love more of those kind of units and I hope there will be more. More boondoggles and vintage units would be lovely too.  :)

[solmanian]

Source?

I'm the source. It's my opinion.

They seem to be plenty common. FM3145 puts most of the clan frontline clusters somewhere between 40-90% omnis.

It used to be that there was no such thing as a FL cluster without a 100% omni, and the SL had their share too (except of the most downtrotten ones).
In 3145, good luck finding a SL unit without a 0% omni rating. Even the alliance 1st air wing, that used to have a full regiment of omnis has lost it.
During the clan invasion, the warrior caste comprised 0.01% of the population - there was no problem supplying them with the best gear available.
I'm assuming they are a larger precentage at 3145, now that freebirths are moer excepted in FL units. We are given numerous examples of IS clans desperate for mechs, and filling their ranks with modified IS mechs. Even after a century they still have problems bringing the local industry to clan standards. Wolf empire is probably at the worst shape, since it had to start from "scratch" after the migration.

[Kret69]

I for one want to see the prototypes and one off designs because they can be so different from the production version. For example both are F-16 and different.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgVTnDAzh6t6-SYWdVOroimZrrzrPm9B9ZxKZldrLI84Z6wcQV
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmZlUnJuNdOSn05dakN_lhq5gMKcTG9KL1aFTGhfUHdqwlSlyrWQ

However You are unlikely to see the prototype in combat, and as You wisely pointed out in another place, it makes more sense to train soldiers to identify units they are likely to encounter. Shouldn't then such prototypes have place in one - max two - XTROs?

[CJKeys]

I cant agree that there are too many TROs, I find the number of the helpful as when starting a game with newer players in a certian era I can simply grap 3025 and 3050 for example if where in the Clan Era and give them a tonnage to start off with, of your later on it can be from 3050 and 55, or 55 and 58 or 58 and 60 or 60 and 67 etc......

So yeah, I have my reasons for liking the number of TROs as if I have a newer player I can reference them to 1 or 2 TROs and they have a decent selection to start with that will be relative to the era they are playing in.

And yes, I did say tonnage, not BV... G/P is based on the BV of the Mechs.... makes force selection easier, yeah you can take that uber Mech, with a 5/6 g/p though.

[marauder648]

There are not too many but they are spread over too many books.  They could do with some re-shuffling to put more mechs in lesser books, that would mean making some big TRO's but I'd not mind!  I'd rather have 6 chunky books than 7 medium sized ones and 5 smaller ones.

[Jellico]

I'm the source. It's my opinion.It used to be that there was no such thing as a FL cluster without a 100% omni, and the SL had their share too (except of the most downtrotten ones).

FM:Updates was the first source to make real use of the Omni rating.
Without even thinking I can point you to the Ghost Bear's 304th Assault, with a 50% Omni rating.
But the Bears are in the Inner Sphere and recovering from a war. What about a Homeworlds powerhouse? Star Adders? Alpha 100% Omni. Beta, oh.
Basically any time a frontline Cluster takes damage they raid the secondline 'Mechs till they can organise replacements.
As for SL units? A quick scan of Updates reveals the only unit outside of a Clan with 100% Omnis is Wolf's Dragoons.
It is a bit different in 3085. The IS units don't have an Omni Rating while the Clans do.

In 3145, good luck finding a SL unit without a 0% omni rating. Even the alliance 1st air wing, that used to have a full regiment of omnis has lost it.

Again FM3145 does not employ an Omni rating for IS units. As the Clans don't have the graduations of the IS' ABCDEF the Omni Rating allows graduations within the broad Frontline/secondline.
In 3145 the 1st Air Wing is no longer a frontline unit by any stretch of the imagination. It is militia. Highly skilled, but still militia. The Raven's won't be doing them any favours.

During the clan invasion, the warrior caste comprised 0.01% of the population - there was no problem supplying them with the best gear available.
I'm assuming they are a larger precentage at 3145, now that freebirths are moer excepted in FL units. We are given numerous examples of IS clans desperate for mechs, and filling their ranks with modified IS mechs. Even after a century they still have problems bringing the local industry to clan standards. Wolf empire is probably at the worst shape, since it had to start from "scratch" after the migration.

Um. Why would there be more Omnimechs just because there are more freeborn warriors? A is not related to B. The % of Omnis has more to do with the ability of the Clan to be able to get their hands on them.

[solmanian]

Um. Why would there be more Omnimechs just because there are more freeborn warriors? A is not related to B. The % of Omnis has more to do with the ability of the Clan to be able to get their hands on them.

I didn't say there would be more omni's; I meant quite the opposite. With more warriors to go around, you have to spread a thinner layer of the omnibutter...

[SCC]

FM:Updates was the first source to make real use of the Omni rating.
Without even thinking I can point you to the Ghost Bear's 304th Assault, with a 50% Omni rating.
But the Bears are in the Inner Sphere and recovering from a war. What about a Homeworlds powerhouse? Star Adders? Alpha 100% Omni. Beta, oh.
Basically any time a frontline Cluster takes damage they raid the secondline 'Mechs till they can organise replacements.
As for SL units? A quick scan of Updates reveals the only unit outside of a Clan with 100% Omnis is Wolf's Dragoons.
It is a bit different in 3085. The IS units don't have an Omni Rating while the Clans do.

I someone's prepared to do the work I think that the Wolf and Falcon phonebooks list every MechWarrior in the invasion, along with their rides.

Um. Why would there be more Omnimechs just because there are more freeborn warriors? A is not related to B. The % of Omnis has more to do with the ability of the Clan to be able to get their hands on them.

You've got what he's saying backwards, he's saying that as the percentage of the population is under arms increase the weapons they use have to get cheaper

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I tend to think there are too many canon mech types, especially variants.

  During WW2 the Germans fielded at least 10 variants of the 75mm gun, each with different perfomance, munitions and penetration capabilities. Add to that at least 10 variants of the Mk IV tank, each with their own production numbers, performance and armor.

Imagine if every faction turned out their own version of every weapon, each with its own table for range, accuracy, damage, weight, and crit slots. That's how the real world is. The BT universe, with its generic weapons and components, is actually very simplified.

[SCC]

The problem is that those sorts of differences are lost in the rounding for BT, when guns ranges are measured in strict 30m increments there's not much you can do. And the game is probably better for it, despite how much people complain about AC's being underpowered how many do you think we would have if they followed the sort of progression of the German 75mm gun?

[FedComGirl]

However You are unlikely to see the prototype in combat, and as You wisely pointed out in another place, it makes more sense to train soldiers to identify units they are likely to encounter. Shouldn't then such prototypes have place in one - max two - XTROs?

True, you're not likely to see it in combat. But you could. The LCT-1V Locust is the prototype variant and the most numerous in 3025. And with all the known manufactures in the Battletech Universe there could be enough prototypes to fill many XTROs. And that doesn't include the manufactures we don't know about yet.

The problem is that those sorts of differences are lost in the rounding for BT, when guns ranges are measured in strict 30m increments there's not much you can do. And the game is probably better for it, despite how much people complain about AC's being underpowered how many do you think we would have if they followed the sort of progression of the German 75mm gun?

Lots and lots.  }:)

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The problem is that those sorts of differences are lost in the rounding for BT, when guns ranges are measured in strict 30m increments there's not much you can do. And the game is probably better for it, despite how much people complain about AC's being underpowered how many do you think we would have if they followed the sort of progression of the German 75mm gun?

Example:
75mm L24 penetration in hexes: Low velocity howitzer, used on Panzer Mk IV D (248 produced)
17 hexes: 38mm
67 hexes: 30mm

75mm L48 penetration in hexes: High velocity gun, used on Panzer Mk IV H (3,774 produced)
17 hexes: 96mm
67 hexes: 64mm

75mm L70 penetration in hexes: High velocity gun, used on Panzer Mk V "Panther" (4,814 produced)
17 hexes: 174mm
67 hexes: 106mm

[glw431]

There are not too many but they are spread over too many books.  They could do with some re-shuffling to put more mechs in lesser books, that would mean making some big TRO's but I'd not mind!  I'd rather have 6 chunky books than 7 medium sized ones and 5 smaller ones.

Word. I would like to spend more money on a single TRO then the other way around.

[Istal_Devalis]

Realistically, you're going to keep getting new 'mech models and makes. Things eventually wear out, and it costs more to maintain them then it does to replace them. And if you're replacing them anyways, why not design a new mech with the latest advancements and lessons learned?

What's unrealistic is the idea that a machine built 400+ years ago should still be functional after constant use. Wear and tear will make upkeep unpleasant after a while. Frankly, they need to start giving out more 'Extinct' quirks on the older machines.

[Kit deSummersville]

More TROs lets us have more of everything else.

[FedComGirl]

Example:
75mm L24 penetration in hexes: Low velocity howitzer, used on Panzer Mk IV D (248 produced)
17 hexes: 38mm
67 hexes: 30mm

75mm L48 penetration in hexes: High velocity gun, used on Panzer Mk IV H (3,774 produced)
17 hexes: 96mm
67 hexes: 64mm

75mm L70 penetration in hexes: High velocity gun, used on Panzer Mk V "Panther" (4,814 produced)
17 hexes: 174mm
67 hexes: 106mm

Cool but how does real life armor penetration translate to battletech damage?

The L70's penetration gets worse at close range?

Realistically, you're going to keep getting new 'mech models and makes. Things eventually wear out, and it costs more to maintain them then it does to replace them. And if you're replacing them anyways, why not design a new mech with the latest advancements and lessons learned?

What's unrealistic is the idea that a machine built 400+ years ago should still be functional after constant use. Wear and tear will make upkeep unpleasant after a while. Frankly, they need to start giving out more 'Extinct' quirks on the older machines.

Yes things wear out but as long as a factory can refurbish it or a mechanic can replace parts it'll keep running. Few if any of the parts may be original but it'll still run.

[Pyro]

BattleTech has always struck me as a universe where a lot of engineering problems that lead to breakdowns, such as metal fatigue, were solved long ago and never lost as LosTech.  It's the only explanation that works to me for how people are still flying centuries-old jumpships, or driving 'Mechs that were among the first off the assembly lines.  Compare to the real world, and look at how many vehicles as comparatively recent as World War II are still in any kind of use.  Obviously, they have science that made it possible, and it's just something under the hood that's barely worth writing about.

[solmanian]

Imagine if every faction turned out their own version of every weapon, each with its own table for range, accuracy, damage, weight, and crit slots. That's how the real world is. The BT universe, with its generic weapons and components, is actually very simplified.

They actualy do. things like AC/2, AC/5, AC/10, etc represent categories, not some very generic cannon that everyone use. The AC/20 category for example, represents cannon with a caliber that can range from 100mm to 300mm. They also have wildly different RoF's. That category basically means: "a cannon that can reliably throw 20 points worth of damage that will hit the same place. It could be a single slug that hits for 20p, or a burst of 20 1p slugs hitting the sections (like pulse lasers).