Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?

[Gäiten]

I do not think that it was Unclanlike, as Ben Rome aid, it was ever part of the bidding process.
Furthermore, these orbital bombardment were the final step to achieve victory. Especially when fighting a dezgra enemy who do not play along the rules.

Brutal? Yes.
Ruthless? Yes.
But Unclanlike? No, "Might makes Right".

[cold1]

But there was no bid.  There was no declaration of a trial.  There was no following of clan law.  The Adders showed up with a fleet, lifted their troops off planet, and proceeded to systematically destroy the entire planet from orbit.

It is indeed unclanlike.  As an Adder fan I see why it happened, it was the practical solution.  But the only way it ever happens is if it's the biggest clan hitting the smallest clan that made a point to piss every other clan off.  If the Scorpions did the same thing to the Cobras at that point the Scorpioms would have been burned at te stake.

The Adders got away with it because of their situation as a powerful clan, that's not the definition of might makes right.  The clans call it a circle of equals because they promote fair and clean combat.

[Stormlion1]

The entire fight on York was a long running battle lacking a trial though. The Blood Spirits made it plain York was there turf and all gloves were off in defending it. And I mean right from the get go so it isn't surprising that when the Adders lifted there troops off they would spoilsport there gains. But the kicker was they spoil sported the planet, one of the few real worlds that needed nothing from elsewhere to survive. That was what broke the Clan way for the Adders. There was no attempt to conserve resources. They just took there toys and threw a tantrum and went home.

Interesting thing though, there were Manufacturing Centers on York that might have survived and have just been abandoned.
Clan Blood Spirit Reserve Industriplex-2 -Protomechs
Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant Main Production Facility-Protomechs
York Aerospace Fighter Y4 Facility-Vandal Omnifighter
York BattleMech Y3 Facility-Blood Kite
York OmniMech Y1 Facility-Stooping Hawk
York Vehicle Y2 Facility-Crimson Langur, Shamash, Morrigu

I wonder if the Adders targeted those factory's or avoided them so they could return later to salvage what they could. I wonder if the Blood Spirits had sent anybody back to salvage what they could for there new holdings? Heck,-conspiracy time-I could see the Spirits sending people back to operate any surviving facility's even after York was bombarded and just running them under hazardous conditions as they Clan needed that equipment.

[Gäiten]

The Adders did have the right using orbital bombardment because it was in their original bid included.

WoR, page 42:
However, with the CSA Stellar Serpent in geosynchronous orbit, the Spirits hesitated from a last final push, both at their own limit and unwilling
to see the Adders forced to use orbital bombardment as an option for defense—and returned to their original bid from the initial invasion.

I would like to know the details about this bidding.

While the Clans may prefer clean battles, this total warfare has ever been within their rules of engagement.
And when they think they had to do it, they did.

[Dreyf]

And how often was Orbital Bombardment used prior to the Clan Invasion? Not including Klondike. Warships were used against other warships, and very rarely. While they were used during the invasion and included in the bidding process, not one example do we have of a warship being used for bombardment. Turtle Bay wasn't even used against a opposing force, but a rebellious planet and even the other Clans considered the use of bombardment as going to far.

It was used at least once during the Jaguar absorption of Clan Mongoose.

[Archangel]

I wonder if the Adders targeted those factory's or avoided them so they could return later to salvage what they could. I wonder if the Blood Spirits had sent anybody back to salvage what they could for there new holdings? Heck,-conspiracy time-I could see the Spirits sending people back to operate any surviving facility's even after York was bombarded and just running them under hazardous conditions as they Clan needed that equipment.

It is pretty clear that the Star Adders didn't hold back. "For twenty-two days, the Adders bombarded the surface of York, hitting every city and facility and breaking the back of the Clan. Combined with targeted airstrikes, the bombardment destroyed ninety percent of the Blood Spirits’ industry and three-quarters of the planetary population." (WoR, p105)

The Blood Spirits salvaged what they could before abandoning York.  "Little remained on York to salvage and the Clan abandoned their long-time capital, relocating to their two secret worlds in Colleen." (WoR, p156)

Any remaining manufacturing machinery would have been relocated as the Star Adder blockade would have prevented any off-world support to the planet or any shipments off-planet (The Star Adders blockaded the planet again after the bombardment of the York).  It was this reformed blockade that destroyed the CDS Titanic. (WoR, p137)

[Stormlion1]

Need to reread WoR sometime soon. Missed that description completely.

[cold1]

Need to reread WoR sometime soon. Missed that description completely.

He beat me to it.  The supplemental says the Stone Lions were trialing for production of Blood Kites, Stooping Hawks, and kingfishers so it is possible those designs live on, possibly being manufactured on Tokasha.  They only need the blue prints since they have a massive manufacturing facility.

Gaiten the Adders had one warship in the bid.  They brought in more to destroy York.  They did violate clan law and no other clan cared (or cared enough to challenge them).  Zell was probably out the window from the get to anyway.

 I'm sure WoR makes the whole thing make sense.  I just don't like it.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The Adders did have the right using orbital bombardment because it was in their original bid included.

I would like to know the details about this bidding.

By the original bidding we were never given details but from the units involved as described in FM:U the Adders originally bid Beta Galaxy and probably a Star of WarShips with heavy aerospace support to destroy the Blood Fury and force a way through York's near space.

[Stormlion1]

Just curious, did the Star Adders warships remain above York the entire time? If they did they remain a part of the original bid but if they left and took part in other operations or were bid elsewhere there no longer involved with the Trial on York.

[tassa_kay]

My two cents, since most of this has been covered:

I really don't see how people are coming to this "the Spirits have pissed off all the other Clans" conclusion. How so? What Clan's toes have they stepped on OTHER than the Star Adders? The other Clans were dismissive and ambivalent towards the Blood Spirits, not hostile...well, not hostile for the Clans, that is.

The Adders did rotate WarShips over York over the years...Tehuantepec was featured in the BattleCorps story "Tears of Blood", Sovereign Right or Absolute Truth (can't remember which) killed the Titanic over York, the Spirits destroyed Vritra over York, and there might be a mention or two that I can't recall at the moment. But it doesn't matter if the WarShips used were a part of the original bid or not, because the Adders didn't bother with communicating with the Spirits at all when they showed up to evac their people and start committing mass murder. They just did it. They threw any pretense of a Trial to the winds.

If we're all being honest with ourselves, the Adders did what they did on York as nothing more than petty, spiteful revenge. They can say whatever they want in their notes in the WoR book, but it was pretty clear why they did what they did. It's the same reason they came after the Spirits after the Viper Annihilation. They could've just let the Spirits leave and be done with them forever, but they not only came to finish what was started, they repeated York all over again, which pretty much underscores my reasoning for why they glassed York to begin with: revenge.

As for the Vipers, it should've been properly explained why the Blood Spirits would throw themselves so recklessly into their Annihilation when it would've made sense for the Spirits to use the distraction to further distance themselves from the Clans. This plot point made absolutely no sense, and not even Andrews' actions against them on Tokasha adequately explain this because this isn't even alluded to in the book. We're all just theorizing at this point.

It still makes no sense to me that the Coyotes were allowed to live despite literally betraying and selling out the other Clans, and the Scorpions were Abjured and chased out with relatively little fuss despite their "taint", but the Blood Spirits couldn't be allowed to walk away. I get that in a post-WoR Kerensky Cluster, arming your civvies was a no-no, but this was just an excuse to the Adders (who, as was pointed out earlier, did the same thing on occasion) who were simply waiting for an excuse to finish the job.

If only the Adders had gotten over themselves and revealed to the Spirits that they were right the entire time that they were saying that the taint of the Burrocks lived on within the Star Adders. Imagine what could've been had the Star Adders came to the Blood Spirits once the Burrocks proclaimed themselves a Clan again and said, "Hey, let's go bury the hatchet in these guys that you hate anyway!"

Sigh. Oh well, at least it's easier for me not to spend money on this brand now. Silver linings and all.

[cold1]

Tassa, I agree with most of what you said so I'm not going to quote it all, but i think there are a couple things where you missed a bit.

I do not think spite was what the Adders were thinking on York as  much as we have bigger problems it's time we swept this one under the rug for good.  I would have preferred a side bar about the Adder khans hating the Spirits and rejoicing in toasting York... but what we got was it was a totally cold, emotionless, practical decision.

I also think the Spirits would have had to reach out to the Adders to create peace.  Like you said, hey look what the Burrocks are doing now, we tried to warn you and that was our intent during the absorption.  The Adders were not driven by some crazy blood lust towards the Spirits.  Hell they we're using York as a training ground to blood new warriors.  They probably would have listened, if the Spirits made it make sense to stop fighting they should listen.

[Stormlion1]

The Clans are arrogance personified. They will never admit they are wrong. The Blood Spirits might have been right about the Burrocks but the Adders wouldn't admit it even if they were in the middle of a pitched battle with Burrock survivors. The Adders bombarded York for 21 days. They targeted civilian and military infrastructure. That wasn't the end result of a trial. That was sour grapes. And the Star Adders will say they are right, because who would gainsay them?

[tassa_kay]

I do not think spite was what the Adders were thinking oattention to  much as we have bigger problems it's time we swept this one under the rug for good.  I would have preferred a side bar about the Adder khans hating the Spirits and rejoicing in toasting York... but what we got was it was a totally cold, emotionless, practical decision.

I agree with this in part, but the Adders had consolidated most of their touman and were actively looking for a target for their wrath at the time, and as much as I'd like to to be able to attribute that sort of purely-calculated attitude to the Adders, the truth (and this has been said on more than one occasion) the Adders hate the Spirits as much as the Spirits hate the Adders. It's this hatred (the death of Dante Truscott needing to be avenged was directly cited by Stanislov N'Buta to turn the Adders' attention to the Spirits) that made it easy for what happened to happen, and the Adders could walk away feeling justified and vindicated at the same time.

I guess I'm saying that it was a little of both: a practical solution to a problem and a way to get revenge. But both were undeniably factors in York's destruction.

I also think the Spirits would have had to reach out to the Adders to create peace.  Like you said, hey look what the Burrocks are doing now, we tried to warn you and that was our intent during the absorption.  The Adders were not driven by some crazy blood lust towards the Spirits.  Hell they we're using York as a training ground to blood new warriors.  They probably would have listened, if the Spirits made it make sense to stop fighting they should listen.

Did the Spirits even know about the Burrock resurgence? I just can't believe that this plot point was ignored, because if there was one thing that might've ended the blood feud, the return of Clan Burrock was it.

Also, they may not have been irrational about their hatred, but make no mistake: the Adders returned that hatred in full. This has been noted more than once. The Spirits' own characterization painted them into a corner, and perhaps this was just the way it was going to end: with one of them being destroyed.

Such a waste. We could've exterminated the Burrocks together. :)

[Stormlion1]

Funny part about it all was that the Star Adders and the Blood Spirits got somewhat along before the Burrock Absorption.

[cold1]

Funny part about it all was that the Star Adders and the Blood Spirits got somewhat along before the Burrock Absorption.

I think the Adders were cool with the Spirits before the absorption.  I remain surprised the Spirits were not called to the carpet for interfering in the absorption.

The reason the Adders and Spirits did not make peace and unite against the Burrocks half way through WoR is obvious, it would have spoiled the ending where they dominate.  The Spirits would have absorbed the remaining Horses and there's your 4 clans.

[Stormlion1]

The real fun part was just how well the Spirits did during the WoR. Multiple worlds, new formations, and even alliances that they wouldn't have had before. If the Blood Spirit Khan hadn't pissed off the Ghost Bears, they hadn't lost three galaxy's against the Steel Vipers or lost so much against the Vipers during there Annihilation I think they Blood Spirits would have been left in much better condition when the other Clans discovered there new homeworld. All they had to do was to avoid just one of those three and there fate would have been far different I think.

[Archangel]

I think the Adders were cool with the Spirits before the absorption.

The Adders probably shared the contempt that most Clans felt towards the questionable Blood Spirits that they were bordering on outright treason.  But as long as the Blood Spirits kept to themselves and didn't interfere in Adder business, the Adders couldn't care less what they did.  The Adders probably frequently forgot about the Spirits altogether.

I remain surprised the Spirits were not called to the carpet for interfering in the absorption.

The Adders probably tried, but the Clans got too caught up with other events (Harvest Trials, new Star League, Operation Bulldog, Task Force Serpent, destruction of the Smoke Jaguars, Great Refusal, abjuration of the Nova Cats and fighting over Nova Cat and Smoke Jaguar possessions) that kept them busy for some time.  By the time, the Adders would have been able to redirect the Grand Council's attention to the Blood Spirits' actions the Blood Spirits had already withdrawn to York and too much time would have passed for the GC to really care. Besides the Adders wanted to punish the Blood Spirits not to have them simply censured.

The reason the Adders and Spirits did not make peace and unite against the Burrocks half way through WoR is obvious, it would have spoiled the ending where they dominate.  The Spirits would have absorbed the remaining Horses and there's your 4 clans.

You do remember that the Spirits destroyed the Adders' enclave on Strana Mechty and killed the Adder saKhan while the Adders bombarded York until it became uninhabitable?  The Adders wanted to destroy them but had more important business to deal with first (dealing with the Invading Clans out of the homeworlds, eliminating the Society and Clan Burrock and destroying the Steel Vipers).  Not to mention that the Star Adders had no idea where the Spirits moved their capital after the destruction of York.

[rebs]

The Clans that called for the Blood Spirit's Annihilation/Reaving in the Founder's Future section (Adder, Coyote and Stone Lion) pretty much hated the Blood Spirits.  Not all the Clans, but enough for a majority vote over the Cobras who might have objected in the Grand Council.  And the Spirits could not vote, being the object of the Annihilation/Absorption/Reaving calls.  So they were eventually screwed, regardless of the type of trial that they would face.

[Urban Kufahl]

It still makes no sense to me that the Coyotes were allowed to live despite literally betraying and selling out the other Clans, and the Scorpions were Abjured and chased out with relatively little fuss despite their "taint", but the Blood Spirits couldn't be allowed to walk away. I get that in a post-WoR Kerensky Cluster, arming your civvies was a no-no, but this was just an excuse to the Adders (who, as was pointed out earlier, did the same thing on occasion) who were simply waiting for an excuse to finish the job.

- Because all clans was more or less involved into the Society (more for the Coyotes).
- The Coyotes was beated but not totaly destroyed on Tamaron , at this point the invasion force have already took severe loss, without the "magic ace " warship Zalman
the cleansing of Babylon would have been a nightmare. so better to stop the butcher bill and seal a deal in the clan way (some trials, some execution and everybodies are happy).

[tassa_kay]

I'm sorry, but that's kind of ludicrous. The Clans have always dealt with traitors in a way that "harsh" doesn't do justice: the Wolverines, the Widowmakers, the Nova Cats, etc. The Coyotes willfully betrayed the other Clans, tried to topple the warrior caste, and were one of the most responsible of all the guilty parties. It's unfathomable to me that they were allowed to live while the Scorpions were Abjured for MUCH less, but everyone's entitled to an opinion, of course.

I do understand, by the by, that the Coyotes were most likely allowed to live because the Adders knew that if they allowed it, they'd have the Coyotes (one of their most bitter enemies in the past) owing them for eternity. I get the in-universe explanation. I just think it was a poor writing call.

[Gaiiten]

The Coyotes showed that they were not a completely tainted Clan when ellements of them fight along the Vipers during the Battle of Tamaron. After this they did a ruthless cleansing/Reaving and played along the rules of the Great Conclave. They embedded themselves wholeheartley in the Clan society again and so have gotten the trust of their brethen again.
So they got the second chance.

The Spirits did not do this. After the Viper annihilation they could have done a new beginning.
The Adders gave them the chance. Till the Call of Abjuration by Coyote Khan Koga there are no battles between Spirits and Adders reported.

For the reasons the Adders had for the bombardment see WoR, page 105, "Spirit Chalcas".
Ruthles, but from a Clanner`s view a proper action.
Their only mistake was stopping the bombardment not finishing the Spirits when they were down. This was un-Clanlike

[cold1]

I think the rank and file Coyote warriors were not all involved with the Society.  It seems like the majority of them were not aware of the scinetists' grip on their clan.  The only evidence I have to support this is the few instances in WoR where groups of Coyote warriors learn the truth and then proceed to start fighting agains their own clan.

It seems a little more like the Burrock situation.  Lots of bad apples but still plenty of good ones as well.  Probably the reason the Adders did not outright absorb them.

The reason they were not annihilated is because the Adders were ready to turn on the Vipers at that point.  Andrews had totally lost it, and they needed every usable man and machine to take the Vipers down. 

The Scorpions, I Agree, did less and were punished hard.

[Gaiiten]

The Spirits could have supported the Vipers, fighting long them versus the Adders.

[tassa_kay]

I think the rank and file Coyote warriors were not all involved with the Society.  It seems like the majority of them were not aware of the scinetists' grip on their clan.  The only evidence I have to support this is the few instances in WoR where groups of Coyote warriors learn the truth and then proceed to start fighting agains their own clan.

It seems a little more like the Burrock situation.  Lots of bad apples but still plenty of good ones as well.  Probably the reason the Adders did not outright absorb them.

The reason they were not annihilated is because the Adders were ready to turn on the Vipers at that point.  Andrews had totally lost it, and they needed every usable man and machine to take the Vipers down. 

Finally, an answer that makes sense. :)

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The Spirits could have supported the Vipers, fighting long them versus the Adders.

As epic as that may sound, they would both be Annihilated against the other 4 Clans. The Adders would suffer much more and get preyed upon by the other Clans after it's done, though.

[Archangel]

The Coyotes showed that they were not a completely tainted Clan when ellements of them fight along the Vipers during the Battle of Tamaron. After this they did a ruthless cleansing/Reaving and played along the rules of the Great Conclave. They embedded themselves wholeheartley in the Clan society again and so have gotten the trust of their brethen again.
So they got the second chance.

Second chance? Yes.  Trust?  Not quite.  The Cloud Cobras still blame them for how the Reavings unfolded.  Their merchant caste, most receptive of the Coyotes, is more due to the added leverage the Coyotes' stigma gives them in negotiations. 

The Spirits did not do this. After the Viper annihilation they could have done a new beginning.
The Adders gave them the chance. Till the Call of Abjuration by Coyote Khan Koga there are no battles between Spirits and Adders reported.

That was more due to the fact that the Adders didn't know where the Blood Spirits had withdrawn to.  They could easily eliminate the Spirits' Strana Mechty garrison but what then?  The Spirits might go into hiding or, even worse, turn the other Clans against the Adders by making them believe that the Adders intend to make a play for the ilClanship by eliminating all opposition.

[Gaiiten]

That was more due to the fact that the Adders didn't know where the Blood Spirits had withdrawn to.  They could easily eliminate the Spirits' Strana Mechty garrison but what then?  The Spirits might go into hiding or, even worse, turn the other Clans against the Adders by making them believe that the Adders intend to make a play for the ilClanship by eliminating all opposition.

I agree.
And even after Colleen was discovered by the other Clans the Adders did not begin raids against these worlds. They left them alone, only watching
Only when the Coyotes called for Abjuration, the Adders jumped in and began their final assault.

My comment towards the Coyotes shall show that if the Spirits would have worked together with other Clans and so showing that they were to play along the rules, they could have even end the feud with the Adders.

[cold1]

Finally, an answer that makes sense. :)

That's my one for the year, I'm done. 

Gaiten has a good point; if the Spirits had made nice with the Adders the Coyotes probably would be done for.

[Archangel]

And even after Colleen was discovered by the other Clans the Adders did not begin raids against these worlds. They left them alone, only watching

...and waiting for an excuse to finish them off.

My comment towards the Coyotes shall show that if the Spirits would have worked together with other Clans and so showing that they were to play along the rules, they could have even end the feud with the Adders.

Very unlikely.  Their feud was only going to end with the death of one or the other.