Parent-Child among Kerensky's 800

[Alan Grant]

Warriors of Kerensky, page 37, tells us that there were 803 bloodnames but only 787 "different names". It says several siblings and "parent-child groups" formed part of the original Clans.

I'm familiar with some of the siblings. The Burrock brothers, the Kerensky's, the Jorgennson's. There are probably others.

But I don't think I'm familiar with any parents and children both who were among the 803 original Clan warriors (and the 803 original bloodnames). Do we have any known examples of this?

I've always wondered if the Leroux's fit into one of these categories.

[rebs]

Speculation: What if the Merrills of Clan Snow Raven were a mother and her daughter or son?  We don't have any info to go on, and the history on many points regarding the Snow Ravens is canonically unclear due to conflicting sources.  ("Clan History" as we know it from all the various volumes, vs Betrayal of Ideals, and of course, the Wars of Reaving.

Then the Wards, Jal and Franklin.  They are not separate Bloodnames, but something happened along the line.  Jal is listed as the founder in Klondike, Franklin Ward is fighting in the Pentagon Worlds and seems to be a young buck who had a hard time with integrating Clan Doctrine - or he just liked to be a #^%#* to Jade Falcons.  Either way, those are the two I wonder about most.  There must be others.

[Archangel]

Nova Cat Khan Sandra Rosse was the daughter of the Nova Cats' first Khan Phillip Drummond and Anna Rosse.

[Alan Grant]

Nova Cat Khan Sandra Rosse was the daughter of the Nova Cats' first Khan Phillip Drummond and Anna Rosse.

Yes but there is only one Rosse line. Anna Rosse was not one of the 800. Sandra actually went after the Bloodname of Anna's second cousin. Per FM: C page 106, although irregular, in early Clan history the rules for bloodname eligibility had not quite been set to stone.

[Kojak]

Well, all 803 are listed in the Op Klondike sourcebook, so it'll just take combing through the names to put the complete list together; if there are 787 unique names, then there should be eight pairs. Here's what I've got:

Nigel and Herve Polczyk
Aslanbek and Kenny Hall
Hans and Cal Jorgensson
Ronetta and Karin Leroux
Terissa and Franklin Osis
Antonius and Shandra Zalman
Jennifer and Jerome Winson
Nicholas and Andery Kerensky

[Archangel]

Well, all 803 are listed in the Op Klondike sourcebook, so it'll just take combing through the names to put the complete list together; if there are 787 unique names, then there should be eight pairs. Here's what I've got:

Nigel and Herve Polczyk
Aslanbek and Kenny Hall
Hans and Cal Jorgensson
Ronetta and Karin Leroux
Terissa and Franklin Osis
Antonius and Shandra Zalman
Jennifer and Jerome Winson
Nicholas and Andery Kerensky

However, just because they have the same last name doesn't necessarily mean they are related.  For example, I don't believe Hans and Cal Jorgensson are related.

[Kojak]

Sure, some of them may be unrelated. I was just compiling a list of all the repeat names.

[Foxx Ital]

Thats why i'm excited for the widowmaker turning points, iv always suspected they were brothers. so any more info about him other than he was a bloody khan is nice.

[Alan Grant]

Hans and Cal Jorgensson were brothers. So says Hans bio in Op. Klondike, which includes a small reference to Cal at the very end. Pages 121 and 122. It says the Bears and Widowmakers became allies because of that brotherly connection.

Thanks for that list of pairings. From what I can see we only have the Zalmans (she was his granddaughter) in anything remotely resembling a parent-child relationship so far. I'd expect at least one more to turn up (WoK made it sound like parent-child pairings, plural). Which probably means the Halls, or the Lerouxs or even both.

Op. Klondike, page 31 sidebar, tells us the Osis pair were cousins.

[Archangel]

Hans and Cal Jorgensson were brothers. So says Hans bio in Op. Klondike, which includes a small reference to Cal at the very end. Pages 121 and 122. It says the Bears and Widowmakers became allies because of that brotherly connection.

Missed that revision.  Would probably mark the only time siblings weren't assigned to the same Clan.

[Dreyf]

The Carson Bloodname from Clan Mongoose is a parent-child relationship although it is a single name unlike the others mentioned above.  The father was killed during an assassination attempt on Kerensky before Klondike and his son took his place in the Clan for Klondike.

[Dragon Cat]

Thats why i'm excited for the widowmaker turning points, iv always suspected they were brothers. so any more info about him other than he was a bloody khan is nice.

Is there a widowmaker turning point?

One for each fallen Clan could be awesome

[rebs]

Is there a widowmaker turning point?

One for each fallen Clan could be awesome

Operational Turningpoints: Widowmaker coming soon.   O0

We can only wish for the rest. 

[Foxx Ital]

Operational Turningpoints: Widowmaker coming soon.   O0

We can only wish for the rest. 

So buy it and help it out  O:-) Then we can gossip like 4th graders.

[cold1]

So buy it and help it out  O:-) Then we can gossip like 4th graders.

This!  I make it a point to buy all clan centric products.  The better they sell the more we are likely to get.  And the more clan books that come out, the grumpier the grognards get.   I love the clans (all of them!) and I love when the grognards get worked up.   O0

When does it become eugenics and not real parental relationships?  Isn't one of the Adder khans Absalom Truscott's actual son?  Clancy Truscott maybe

[WeaponX]

Missed that revision.  Would probably mark the only time siblings weren't assigned to the same Clan.

The brothers were probably meant to be together, but Hans didn't want to be seperated from his wife, so they ran off into the wild and met a bunch of Ghost Bears.  When they eventually returned to the Clans, Kerensky had a change of heart and reassigned them to the same Clan, which was named after the animal they encountered in the wilds.

[Kojak]

Isn't one of the Adder khans Absalom Truscott's actual son?  Clancy Truscott maybe

Yes, Absalom Truscott had five children, three of whom became Star Adder warriors; Clancy was one of those three and became the third Adder Khan in 2837.

[rebs]

This!  I make it a point to buy all clan centric products.  The better they sell the more we are likely to get.  And the more clan books that come out, the grumpier the grognards get.   I love the clans (all of them!) and I love when the grognards get worked up.   O0

That's the plan right there.  Been going on since 1991 and Wolf Clan Sourcebook.   ;D 

[Dragon Cat]

This!  I make it a point to buy all clan centric products.  The better they sell the more we are likely to get.  And the more clan books that come out, the grumpier the grognards get.   I love the clans (all of them!) and I love when the grognards get worked up.   O0

When does it become eugenics and not real parental relationships?  Isn't one of the Adder khans Absalom Truscott's actual son?  Clancy Truscott maybe

+1 the Clans are fun and different

[Tyler Jorgensson]

The brothers were probably meant to be together, but Hans didn't want to be seperated from his wife, so they ran off into the wild and met a bunch of Ghost Bears.  When they eventually returned to the Clans, Kerensky had a change of heart and reassigned them to the same Clan, which was named after the animal they encountered in the wilds.

And Cal Jorgensson killed the IlKhan... seems like Nicholas made the right choice ;D

Definitely want to see the Widowmaker book... because they won't give me the Wolverine book, Mongoose, or Burrock Books.....

[cold1]

Wolverines got a novel...
Mongoose is pretty fleshed out in Golden Century
Burrock is well fleshed out in FM:CC and Wars of Reaving

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Burrocks got details of their destruction, and same for the other two. Sure theirs some additional information out there, but most of it is redacted, missing, told from conflicting points of view, after reports and the like.

And yes they did give us a Wolverine book: but I can't want a post-Annihilation book too? :D

I did mean to quote before but I couldn't find my Op:Klondike

Well, all 803 are listed in the Op Klondike sourcebook, so it'll just take combing through the names to put the complete list together; if there are 787 unique names, then there should be eight pairs. Here's what I've got:

Nigel and Herve Polczyk
Aslanbek and Kenny Hall
Hans and Cal Jorgensson
Ronetta and Karin Leroux
Terissa and Franklin Osis
Antonius and Shandra Zalman
Jennifer and Jerome Winson
Nicholas and Andery Kerensky

CGB Sergio Weibenborn
CHH Krisztian Weibenborn

CSR Joyce and Layne Merrell

ALSO appear on the list of the original 803 Bloodnames. The Halls', Leroux's, and Merrell's we have no indication of what their relationship to the others is, but we know the rest of the names relationships.

[Kojak]

Good catch on those. BTW, the big B is German names is called an "esset", it stands for "ss", so in English that name would be Weissenborn.

Interesting, so that actually leaves us with less than the 787 quote. I wonder if there's a way to reconcile that.

[Archangel]

And yes they did give us a Wolverine book: but I can't want a post-Annihilation book too? :D

You will probably be waiting for a long time (if not forever).  The problem with such a book is from whose viewpoint do you write.  If it was from any non-Wolverine Clan it would be filled with anti-Wolverine half-truths if not outright lies.  If it was from the Wolverine perspective, not only would it be tainted by pro-Wolverine half-truths but it would missing a lot of critical information (due to the destruction of various Wolverine units').

[Tyler Jorgensson]

You will probably be waiting for a long time (if not forever).  The problem with such a book is from whose viewpoint do you write.  If it was from any non-Wolverine Clan it would be filled with anti-Wolverine half-truths if not outright lies.  If it was from the Wolverine perspective, not only would it be tainted by pro-Wolverine half-truths but it would missing a lot of critical information (due to the destruction of various Wolverine units').

Hence the very fact we will never get one :(

Good catch on those. BTW, the big B is German names is called an "esset", it stands for "ss", so in English that name would be Weissenborn.

Interesting, so that actually leaves us with less than the 787 quote. I wonder if there's a way to reconcile that.

Helpful if I ever take a German class: I thought there were more personally but a quick check on the list showed me only those. I'm sure many sons and daughters of the original 803 gained warrior spots, and perhaps even bloodnames given the fact that Nicholas decided to make 25 Bloodrights. But those kinds of statistics and family trees, we can only dream of having.

[Alan Grant]

Good catch on those. BTW, the big B is German names is called an "esset", it stands for "ss", so in English that name would be Weissenborn.

Interesting, so that actually leaves us with less than the 787 quote. I wonder if there's a way to reconcile that.

At this point I struggle to think of a scenario where we can reconcile the numbers. Even if you consider that some parents-children perhaps didn't share the same surname...that doesn't account for the specific "787 different names" reference in WoK.

Its a very specific quote. It isn't talking about someone earning a bloodname "later" or being the founder of a "new" bloodname later. Its a direct reference to the number of bloodnames and the number of different names that existed at the founding of the Clans.

I honestly wonder if the writers overlooked or forgot that published number when assembling the list of 803 names. It was probably a very very tough job, pulling every canon reference to any bloodname ever written in any BT book anywhere to assemble the list of names...decide what Clan to drop each of them into...etc.

[rebs]

Conflicting documentation of the era, perhaps?  What if some original Bloodnames besides those that were Annihilated were changed later, and are in fact not original, but substitutes for lines that ended up rebelling after Klondike?  And perhaps this is another clue on the Not-Named paper trail.

Or not.  But it's something to think about. 

[solmanian]

Don't forget, guys: the whole genetic engineering and iron wombs came half a century after the founding of the clans; so parents/children and sibling would've been common.

That makes me wonder, when did the sibko system started? Did they started before the iron womb development? Putting all the children together and raising them together like a kibbutz (which the clan culture borrows heavily from)?

[Jaim Magnus]

Don't forget, guys: the whole genetic engineering and iron wombs came half a century after the founding of the clans; so parents/children and sibling would've been common.

That makes me wonder, when did the sibko system started? Did they started before the iron womb development? Putting all the children together and raising them together like a kibbutz (which the clan culture borrows heavily from)?

The genetics program was announced in 2819, only nine years after the founding of the Clans.  The sibko systems started after the founding of the Clans.  Nicky K was reengineering society as well as genetics.

[rebs]

Don't forget, guys: the whole genetic engineering and iron wombs came half a century after the founding of the clans; so parents/children and sibling would've been common.

That makes me wonder, when did the sibko system started? Did they started before the iron womb development? Putting all the children together and raising them together like a kibbutz (which the clan culture borrows heavily from)?

No doubt.  There are some elements that must have been in place (however small-scale and disorganized by latter standards), while we know from the text that much of what we know as Clan culture did not take its familiar shape until a hundred fifty years or more after time of Nicky.  The iron womb system was in place early, though I think the stringent training regimens for most Clans didn't get going until after Klondike, and well after that for most Clans not called Viper or Blood Spirit.