The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)

[Zeruel]

*Note the Executioner finally has a consistent 50 points at 20 hexes variant bringing it in line with Clan assault standards.

no matter how optimized a loadout you stick on the Exe, other established Assault Omnis can carry the same thing plus more...that's kind of why I think we need another Assault Omni (I personally would settle for us building the Warhawk)

...as much as I like the Kingfisher, it suffers the same issue as the Exe and has 2.5 tons less pod space, and while it's a zombie 'Mech, I feel that's not enough for going up against other Clan Assaults...

[Scotty]

The III is better than the I or II in every way. Just saying...

We need a trooper light. We need a trooper medium. We need a big heavy to fill the gap between the Karhu and Executioner.

I humbly submit that literally no one needs a Trooper Light, and using resources to accomplish that is wasteful when you could just be building anything else.

*Note the Executioner finally has a consistent 50 points at 20 hexes variant bringing it in line with Clan assault standards.

This feels extremely weird to judge Clan Assault standards by, considering the following Clan Assaults have zero configs or variants that can accomplish that feat:

Kingfisher
Blood Asp (the G config is technically capable of the feat if you roll a 12 on the cluster table; that doesn't seem likely)
Savage Coyote (the C config is technically capable of the feat if you roll multiple 9+ on the cluster table; likewise not likely)
Gargoyle
Onager (the Onager 2 can do 50 points of damage on paper, but the -2 to clusters at long range on the HAG makes it impossible to actually accomplish at 20 hexes)
Night Wolf
Highlander IIC
Bruin
Naga
Shrike (the 3 is technically capable of the feat but only by going up to +19 heat before considering movement)

Out of what I can tell is a total of 32 Assault weight 'Mech designs (I didn't include the Marauder II C, Annihilator C, or any other predominantly IS tech units even though the Battlemaster would have qualified on the above list, too).  Or, over a quarter of all groups of chassis incapable of the feat; if standard battlemech variants were tabulated separately well over half of all Clan Assaults would fail this standard.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I humbly submit that literally no one needs a Trooper Light, and using resources to accomplish that is wasteful when you could just be building anything else.

This feels extremely weird to judge Clan Assault standards by, considering the following Clan Assaults have zero configs or variants that can accomplish that feat:

Kingfisher
Blood Asp (the G config is technically capable of the feat if you roll a 12 on the cluster table; that doesn't seem likely)
Savage Coyote (the C config is technically capable of the feat if you roll multiple 9+ on the cluster table; likewise not likely)
Gargoyle
Onager (the Onager 2 can do 50 points of damage on paper, but the -2 to clusters at long range on the HAG makes it impossible to actually accomplish at 20 hexes)
Night Wolf
Highlander IIC
Bruin
Naga
Shrike (the 3 is technically capable of the feat but only by going up to +19 heat before considering movement)

Out of what I can tell is a total of 32 Assault weight 'Mech designs (I didn't include the Marauder II C, Annihilator C, or any other predominantly IS tech units even though the Battlemaster would have qualified on the above list, too).  Or, over a quarter of all groups of chassis incapable of the feat; if standard battlemech variants were tabulated separately well over half of all Clan Assaults would fail this standard.

I agree about the trooper light, but a domestic one thats not all engine would be nice. We have our Fire Moth and our ErLL on steroid legs in the Locust IIC8. A less bad for bad sake Bear Cub would be cool.

While a well piloted Kingfisher and Executioner are scary, they aren’t infinite guns scary like the tomahawk or the like are.

[Jellico]

I humbly submit that literally no one needs a Trooper Light, and using resources to accomplish that is wasteful when you could just be building anything else.

This feels extremely weird to judge Clan Assault standards by, considering the following Clan Assaults have zero configs or variants that can accomplish that feat:

Kingfisher
Blood Asp (the G config is technically capable of the feat if you roll a 12 on the cluster table; that doesn't seem likely)
Savage Coyote (the C config is technically capable of the feat if you roll multiple 9+ on the cluster table; likewise not likely)
Gargoyle
Onager (the Onager 2 can do 50 points of damage on paper, but the -2 to clusters at long range on the HAG makes it impossible to actually accomplish at 20 hexes)
Night Wolf
Highlander IIC
Bruin
Naga
Shrike (the 3 is technically capable of the feat but only by going up to +19 heat before considering movement)

Out of what I can tell is a total of 32 Assault weight 'Mech designs (I didn't include the Marauder II C, Annihilator C, or any other predominantly IS tech units even though the Battlemaster would have qualified on the above list, too).  Or, over a quarter of all groups of chassis incapable of the feat; if standard battlemech variants were tabulated separately well over half of all Clan Assaults would fail this standard.

I agree it is hard to justify a light trooper in the modern age. Even a medium under 50 tons. I only include it because CGB formations are based on groups (of 3) of troopers and cavalry (eg 2 Mad Dogs and a Summoner. Grizzly and 2 Arcas). Up until the 3070s that was Firemoth and Adder for CGB, and the Adder has never really be replaced.

My 50 points figure came about when I discovered the Dire Wolf Widowmaker. Basically a 95 or 100 ton 3/5 Clan mech should be able to put out 50 damage at 20 hexes. Otherwise you are vulnerable to being cut out of battle because of your speed and short ranged weapons. The really good ones can crack 60 points.

Obviously lighter, faster, and specialised assaults have trouble with this.
Interestingly modern tricks are letting smaller Mechs catch up while the big boys are hitting crit space limits. Eg using SLRMs (everything hits and you can allow more overheating because its not always going to fire) I can get 50 out of a Karhu.



On another topic. What light and medium 2nd line Mechs are we making?

[truetanker]

Don't you guys still build the Arcas and it's sequels?

I'd prefer the Arcas 2 than a Hammerhand approach...

TT

[Kerfuffin(925)]

.
On another topic. What light and medium 2nd line Mechs are we making?

Locust IIC 5 and 8.
Bear Cub
Ursus/Ursus II
Beowulf IIC
Mongrel (mix tech garbage one)
Gravedigger (mix tech alright one but still makes me mad)
Shadow Hawk 12C :flame:
Some other stuff might be coming from New Oslo but I’m not sure. Mostly refits tho

[Jellico]

Excellent. Thank you.
Nothing wrong with the SHD-12C.
Try the MGL-T2 if you don't want mixtech.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Excellent. Thank you.
Nothing wrong with the SHD-12C.
Try the MGL-T2 if you don't want mixtech.

What really bothers me about it is the idea that they’d build a new line that manufactures Heavy PPCs when they could have retooled to Clan ER PPCs from IS.


Almost all the designs that started production in the Dark Age upset me, but the Mongrel, Grave Digger and that Shadow Hawk really get me going. Makes me wish the Dominion kept more of a command economy than they did.

The Odin factory that makes most of the second line mechs was messed up in the second dominion combine war and only had its Shadow Hawk line running, so not sure what happened to the Mongrel, Beowulf IIC, and the Karhu. It looks like the Dominion Mongrel line got shifted to the Grave Digger after it was destroyed.

[Scotty]

Here's my hot take: Heavy PPCs are acceptable substitues for Clan ER PPCs because they drive the BV of a 'Mech down by at least 200 points.  Each.  A Shadow Hawk 12C with a C ER PPC is 1850, minimum, and much less attractive.

[Jellico]

CS indicates ComStar.
Lord’s Light 3 is a Draconis HPPC manufactured by Alshain Weapons.
The Diverse Optics Extended Range Medium is Combine from Irian.
The Wall Type 8 armor is ComStar.
I can't place the Helga but the rest is typical Shadow Hawk.

So the 12CS looks like standard Rasalhague built pre 3069 ComStar Mech. I think that there was a PHawk there too.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

CS indicates ComStar.
Lord’s Light 3 is a Draconis HPPC manufactured by Alshain Weapons.
The Diverse Optics Extended Range Medium is Combine from Irian.
The Wall Type 8 armor is ComStar.
I can't place the Helga but the rest is typical Shadow Hawk.

So the 12CS looks like standard Rasalhague built pre 3069 ComStar Mech. I think that there was a PHawk there too.

MUL has it introduced in 3079 along side the Karhu and it’s fluff says it was built specifically for spheroid bums.

[Jellico]

Both can work without being contradictory. I have seen how the sausages get made pretty close up. I have seen things take a decade from pen to print. The 12CS could have been rejigged multiple times before finding a TRO.

Things like the Gravedigger and Mongrel come from Mechwarrior Dark Age when the franchise was taking a more basic and low tech approach. We are lucky we didn't end up with clawed agromechs.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

So after finally getting the new Rec Guide:  agree we need a big brutal 3/5 beat stick with tons of pod space. Don’t get me wrong: I enjoy the new Executioner variants (some more than others), but nearly all our homegrown assaults are 4/6 or faster (often with JJ too!). We need a Homegrown Turkina, Tomahawk, or Dire Wolf.

I also think that a trooper light and medium would benefit the Touman too. We can’t throw Fire Moths at all our light problems (as much as we want too). And while I like some of our mediums and smaller heavies... I hate the Kuma. Something lighter to replace it or even an Omni that rips out the engine and JJ (for pod mounted JJ) and some more weapons.

IDK I mean we have a bunch of standard mechs that could use some new variants and refits as well IMO:  Ryoken II, Ursus II, Beowulf II.... to name a few. But that’s my opinion at least.

[Zeruel]

To keep in theme with what the Bears usually do, I would say it doesn't even have to be 3/5...4/6 works for me, just lay off the excess weight like MASC, JJs or an SFE and don't skimp on the armour

[Kerfuffin(925)]

To keep in theme with what the Bears usually do, I would say it doesn't even have to be 3/5...4/6 works for me, just lay off the excess weight like MASC, JJs or an SFE and don't skimp on the armour

We have so many 4/6 already. Every clan assault on our MUL DA list is 4/6 but 5. A MAD IIC variant, SuperNova, the OG Stone Rhino, Highlander IIC 3, and the Viking IIC. Although I imagine we’ll have access to a Dire Wolf again to give us an Omni at 3/5 when the rec guide for it comes in.

There really isn’t room for another take on a 4/6 assault that hasn’t been done, outside of ferro-lam. We have 4/6 xl, 4/6 std, 4/6 and a stupid amount of fixed heat sinks (std and xl), 4/6 and JJ, 4/6 JJ and masc, 4/6 JJ masc and supercharger, 4/6 and close range, 4/6 and long range, 4/6 and mid range, 4/6 and a rifleman clone, 4/6 but with hardened, 4/6 and imported, and finally (for this banal rant I have gone on) 4/6 and home grown.

[Jellico]

Personally I am intrigued by the XL/reinforced structure option at the moment.

Reinforced and Hardened were the Dominion technology gains and Hardened doesn't work with Omnis.

Using the Kingfisher as a basis for comparison with the same 17 HS podspace goes from 24 tons to 27.
Yes, you gain the XL engine but structure goes from 138 to 276. Or the equivalent of 9 tons of standard plate armor. You need to do 40 points of internal damage to take out a side torso, so the engine isn't that vulnerable.

So yeah, a 3 ton gain on what is arguably a tougher chassis. Every little bit counts and 3/5 is slow in Bear land. Spend the 3 tons of Ferro Lamellor for giggles given you aren't paying for endo crits any more.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Personally I am intrigued by the XL/reinforced structure option at the moment.

Reinforced and Hardened were the Dominion technology gains and Hardened doesn't work with Omnis.

Using the Kingfisher as a basis for comparison with the same 17 HS podspace goes from 24 tons to 27.
Yes, you gain the XL engine but structure goes from 138 to 276. Or the equivalent of 9 tons of standard plate armor. You need to do 40 points of internal damage to take out a side torso, so the engine isn't that vulnerable.

So yeah, a 3 ton gain on what is arguably a tougher chassis. Every little bit counts and 3/5 is slow in Bear land. Spend the 3 tons of Ferro Lamellor for giggles given you aren't paying for endo crits any more.

Ooh one I didn’t think of, and reinforced could end up a noticeable net gain in survivability. However I don’t think we can see it in anything soon cause reinforced structure isn’t in the scope of the rec guides (right?).

[Jellico]

It is in BattleTech BattleMech Manual  ::)


I think it is important to remember that up until less than a month ago confirmed omni production for the Dominion was top heavy. Executioner, Karhu, and Mad Dog III/II(are both in production???). Now we know the Viper and Firemoth are back. But that is a double edged sword because the Executioner, Viper, and Firemoth were some of the more questionable TRO3050 Omnis, a TRO known for being questionable. For better or worse Omnis are the back bone of our frontline 'Mechs. We may have some awesome experiments in BattleMechs, which is great if you are playing Tundra Galaxy, not so much Alpha.
 
It is all well and good to say that we can import, but up until very recently the Sea Foxes didn't do that many Omnis either. The Horses didn't, and we aren't buying Wolf or Falcon tech. The Alliance is also idiosyncratic. There are a couple of items of interest but I am not buying a 3/5 85 tonner.

Actually there aren't that many good light and medium Omnis around. You need a Storm Crow/Nova, which I know where we can get. Then you need a fast light. We have the Viper, rules out the Ice Ferret, Mongrel is sort of in between, and the less said about the Shadow Cat the better. What would be nice would be a ultra fast light with some protection. God I wanted something like the Wulfen for us, but there was too much unpublished Dominion MW:DA stuff at the time.
Fix up that hole then get some assaults happening. Doesn't help that we have so many assault BattleMech producers and everyone thinks we Kodiak everything.


I am curious who is using 3/5 Mechs lately. It is years since I played but the local tabletop discouraged assaults. The last serious attempt at a big 3/5 camping assault I can think of is the Tomahawk and that was a bit of fanservice to an old magazine reference. I had always figured after the 3/5 Gauss burnout in TRO3055/58 the designers had been avoiding it since TRO3060.

It is sort of central to the need for a 3/5 assault. If your Executioner can eat a couple of big heavies while your Mad Dogs suppress the Dire Wolf/Tomahawk, is that a problem? It is why I look at say 80 tons for a oversized heavy 'Mech. But the Executioner does everything the 80 tonner will (80/85 tons is more efficient but you don't get that big structure/armor) and you really want 5/8 movement which is another bloody Timber Wolf. So we retain that gaping enigma of a hole between 65 and 95 tons.



PS, and I proved myself wrong about big assaults hitting the firepower wall the other day. I managed to drag 80 heatsinked, cluster averaged, points at 20 hexes out of a Dire Wolf. I am pretty chuffed about that because that beats a Kraken 3's not quite sinked 72.

[Zeruel]

Well I feel we have a need for a more classic Assault Omni mostly because of the Bears original Touman weight makeup, with our Fire Moths being BA taxi, Vipers are our "Lights" , the Mad Dog is our "Medium" , and the Executioner are "Heavy" ...for Assaults we used to run Warhawks and Kingfishers, and I guess they were adequate for the role, but (and unless the RecGuides change this) we no longer have access to either of those two 'Mechs

Now I also get we don't really run that weight setup anymore, but that doesn't mean the Exe isn't basically a big Heavy, especially as compared to some of the more robust Clan Assault 'Mechs

[Mecha82]

Good thing for me that I don't follow RecGuides so I can still keep using what I have even if GB doesn't use those anymore in lore. Otherwise I wouldn't have much to use as my collection is very small with only 1 binary worth of clan mechs in my entire collection.

[Scotty]

That... isn't anything to do with the Recognition Guides.  Nothing about them prevents you from using anything.

[Zeruel]

Good thing for me that I don't follow RecGuides so I can still keep using what I have even if GB doesn't use those anymore in lore. Otherwise I wouldn't have much to use as my collection is very small with only 1 binary worth of clan mechs in my entire collection.

Well it's the Wars of Reaving that cut those off, what with the only manufacturing centres being in the Homeworlds...again, unless the new Recognition Guides (which are just the latest TROs) change that

But that doesn't mean you can't use them, just that no one manufactures them in the IS

[CJC070]

Good thing for me that I don't follow RecGuides so I can still keep using what I have even if GB doesn't use those anymore in lore. Otherwise I wouldn't have much to use as my collection is very small with only 1 binary worth of clan mechs in my entire collection.

You have hundred+ year old mechs then.  Congratulations you back to where battletech began, mechs held together by twine, ingenuity, and prayer. 

[Mecha82]

You have hundred+ year old mechs then.  Congratulations you back to where battletech began, mechs held together by twine, ingenuity, and prayer.

Not really. My collection is combination of old metal Ral Partha miniatures that I had bought back when was in middle school and brand new plastic ones from boxed sets.

[CJC070]

Not really. My collection is combination of old metal Ral Partha miniatures that I had bought back when was in middle school and brand new plastic ones from boxed sets.

I am talking about the mechs that were built in lore.  If you have anything the GB didn’t build it is either rebuilt salvage or older than Victor Steiner either way it is held together by twine, ingenuity, and prayer.

[nckestrel]

Good thing for me that I don't follow RecGuides so I can still keep using what I have even if GB doesn't use those anymore in lore. Otherwise I wouldn't have much to use as my collection is very small with only 1 binary worth of clan mechs in my entire collection.

You have this backwards by the way.  Nobody has manufatured the Warhawk in ages. The Ghost Bear never made it, and the only ones they had they took from the Jaguars.  Which obviously hasn't happened in ages by the 3150s either. The Recognition Guides are bringing old OmniMechs back into production, not removing them. (We haven't' learned yet who is making Warhawks yet, as they haven't appeared in the Recognition Guides yet).

You're welcome to play with what you want, but the Recognition Guides are in no way asking you to use less of the old omni's, it's specifically making them more available.

[truetanker]

Didn't the Warhawk get built by the Scorpions after the Jaguars?

Cause I remember something about the Abysmal continent and the Phan City...

Who owns these today?

That might answer the question.

TT

[Jellico]

TRO3050U

Following the Jaguars’ annihilation, the Fire Mandrills seized control of the Phan Industrialplex on Huntress. Inner Sphere forces had made a cursory effort to raze the complex, so enough survived to rebuild one Masakari production line. The Mandrills have also traded the design to the Diamond Sharks, and the Goliath Scorpions appear to have a source of new Masakaris, possibly from their Abysmal Manufacturing Complex.

Is the Deimos armored enough to be up to the job?

[Zeruel]

TRO3050U
Is the Deimos armored enough to be up to the job?

the Deimos has about 88% armour coverage and moves slower than a Warhawk...being slower, I'd want more armour, but it's not a bad amount either I guess

[Kerfuffin(925)]

the Deimos has about 88% armour coverage and moves slower than a Warhawk...being slower, I'd want more armour, but it's not a bad amount either I guess

It’s got the MASC, which I really dislike on this mech, it’s 4 tons and 4 crits it really needs elsewhere, in what is in almost every variant, a sniper.

I like the mech a lot, just wish it didn’t use masc or fix the AMS ammo in the ct