Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk

[WONC]

...Damn...

I kinda hope you are right, but even if you aren't, that writeup may qualify as one of the most badass things ever written about the Fire Mandrills.

Thanks. Sometimes I ramble a bit more than I mean to, but the thought of the Mandrills being absolutely badass has always made me smile.

[Takiro]

Okay, so I waxed a bit poetic there. Apologies.  xp

Don't apologize, well put.

I always envisioned the Mandrills functioning as a sort of special or elite force in such a unified Clan invasion. From hard point you want to shatter or distraction you need faint they are your Clan or Kindraa more precisely. Only problem is you may have difficulty deploying them on command....

[truetanker]

Where are the Mandrills? Their late to the corridor...

Invasion Galaxy Commander arrives to see the entire Fire Mandrill cluster in different positions...

Mandrill Star Colonel responds that their trying to decide which unit goes first, so far it's a tie...

Next color is Green, Left Arm!

sigh... ah Mandrills...

TT

[Sjhernan3060]

Don't apologize, well put.

I always envisioned the Mandrills functioning as a sort of special or elite force in such a unified Clan invasion. From hard point you want to shatter or distraction you need faint they are your Clan or Kindraa more precisely. Only problem is you may have difficulty deploying them on command....

That’s why I love the odd couple pairing of the mandrills and spirits! They are so different but that seems to strengthen the bond kinda like rocky and Apollo became…

[CJC070]

Don't apologize, well put.

I always envisioned the Mandrills functioning as a sort of special or elite force in such a unified Clan invasion. From hard point you want to shatter or distraction you need faint they are your Clan or Kindraa more precisely. Only problem is you may have difficulty deploying them on command....

The Mandrills and Spirits (and maybe others) could have just as easily turned their loyalty to the Inner Sphere against the clans especially after the massacres and infighting in the early part of the invasion.

[Alan Grant]

The really devout Warden Kindraa... maybe but I wouldn't put high odds on it.

The Fire Mandrills don't play well with others. There is an arrogance there that would make negotiations with any Inner Sphere power difficult.

I think the most probable exceptions to this would be Faraday-Tanaga. They are probably the closest thing the Fire Mandrills have to an Ulric Kerensky in Kindraa form. They'd probably be able to hold their own in an Inner Sphere political arena.

Mattila-Carrol tries to be this but are very focused on the success of the Clan and they have a history of flip-flopping on the Crusader/Warden thing. In political mentality I'd compare them to the Sharks or the Bears. They are going to chart their own path that no one else would follow. The potential is there but they seem very pragmatic and so they might seize on an alliance opportunity if one presented itself.

Kindraa Kline perhaps, but it comes more from a place of desperation due to their weaknesses. Among the Clans they are always on the defensive and are regarded as a second-rate Kindraa, but they might see opportunity to be more of a leading light in the Inner Sphere, or at least have a better home. Offer them a world that's there, that is much better than their Homeworld Enclaves and I think they'd be tempted.

The Paynes are also Wardens, but arrogant Wardens. Sorta like the Coyotes in mentality. Not sure what they would do.

But the other Kindraa are definitely Crusaders.

[Sjhernan3060]

The really devout Warden Kindraa... maybe but I wouldn't put high odds on it.

The Fire Mandrills don't play well with others. There is an arrogance there that would make negotiations with any Inner Sphere power difficult.

I think the most probable exceptions to this would be Faraday-Tanaga. They are probably the closest thing the Fire Mandrills have to an Ulric Kerensky in Kindraa form. They'd probably be able to hold their own in an Inner Sphere political arena.

Mattila-Carrol tries to be this but are very focused on the success of the Clan and they have a history of flip-flopping on the Crusader/Warden thing. In political mentality I'd compare them to the Sharks or the Bears. They are going to chart their own path that no one else would follow. The potential is there but they seem very pragmatic and so they might seize on an alliance opportunity if one presented itself.

Kindraa Kline perhaps, but it comes more from a place of desperation due to their weaknesses. Among the Clans they are always on the defensive and are regarded as a second-rate Kindraa, but they might see opportunity to be more of a leading light in the Inner Sphere, or at least have a better home. Offer them a world that's there, that is much better than their Homeworld Enclaves and I think they'd be tempted.

The Paynes are also Wardens, but arrogant Wardens. Sorta like the Coyotes in mentality. Not sure what they would do.

But the other Kindraa are definitely Crusaders.

I agree the mandrills and spirits also had in common a huge arrogance it was sighted as leading reason for why they got whipped during the Great Refusal trial ( now I have my thoughts on that but…)

[Sjhernan3060]

Due to their chaotic nature did they mandrill clan council meet more or less often then “ normal” clans? I can imagine the potential always existed for council sessions to end like this:

https://youtu.be/F2b-2YnfZso

How did they avoid that?

[Shivetya]

Okay, so I waxed a bit poetic there. Apologies.  xp

I love this take on the Mandrill role as "demoralizers". Biased of course, almost anything painting in a favourable light tends to get a thumbs up from me.

Originally I'd read it as slightly less badass, and attributed the the Mandrill's apparent skills in demoralisation as a nod towards their famously aggressive heckling/posturing. There are a couple canon instances out there, but the most recent example shows up in Dezgra, where the HH Khan is thrown off-kilter by the polite batchall called by Smythe, and notes specifically that Smythe's approach is completely out of character for the typically bellicose/insulting Mandrills.

Given WONC's treatment though, I think I'd like to picture it as a devastating combination of the two. Causing all kinds of havoc with their flames and their mad, relentless momentum - fueled by their obsessive drive to prove themselves superior to their peers - all while screaming out uninterrupted stream of mocking challenges and savage insults at their opponents.

Due to their chaotic nature did they mandrill clan council meet more or less often then “ normal” clans? I can imagine the potential always existed for council sessions to end like this:

https://youtu.be/F2b-2YnfZso

How did they avoid that?

I don't know about them meeting more or less often than the average Clan. That said, we do get a peek at how their Clan Council runs in "A Keystone Arch", and (no surprise) it is a tense, nasty affair. The story notes that none of the Mandrill present are allowed to draw their blades (and each Kindraa appears to have their own flavour of favoured blade, with the notable members all bearing a sword of some kind) due to a rule put in place after the assembled representatives of the Kindraa finally met some threshold of in-session stabbings. That STILL doesn't prevent Sainze from forcing at least one Payne bondsman to commit seppuku on the council floor, in front of his sibkin, the Payne Kindraa leader. Doesn't take, so the Sainze lops off his head instead. 

So in short, they didn't. That video, but with swords, is how Mandrill Clan Council meetings likely looked. 

[Tyler Jorgensson]

That ‘Keystone Arch’ story sounded quite good from the description on Sarna… shame it was a BattleCorps story. No way to really get those anymore afaik, quiaff?

[Angrii]

I'm afraid not. I've been searching in vain for that particular story in any kind of medium for a few years now...

[Alan Grant]

Just read "Land of Dreams" from the Founding of the Clans novel series. I didn't read the first two books, just the third as I was really just interested in the book likely to portray the events of Operation Klondike.

There are a couple of brief scenes that portray the rivalry between Raymond Sainze and Laura Payne specifically. Sheds more light on their rivalry.

Andery Kerensky is the primary viewpoint of that novel, but it does shuffle around between the other Clans, mostly their Khans, amid Operation Klondike operations in brief scenes.

Also, Fire Mandrill Mia Nethercott gets a mention. As part of Laura Payne's bid in an attack (bidding against Sainze for the right to attack a target). Don't know anything about Mia, she's probably a mechwarrior as this seems to be a 'mech battle being portrayed from Laura's viewpoint as a Marauder pilot, it's just a little back and forth dialogue, as she's calling on Laura to call off an attack as they are running out of ammo (Laura pushed for the attack even though supplies were low). But it was interesting to see a Mandrill that I've never before seen mentioned (besides the list of 40 Fire Mandrill warriors in the Operation Klondike book), get a couple lines of dialogue. Doesn't say what she was piloting.

Does make me suspect that Nethercott is closely tied to Laura Payne, and that the Nethercott Bloodline might have been one of the Bloodlines that was part of Kindred Association/Kindraa Payne from perhaps the very beginning.

No way to verify that really. But it is interesting to put another Fire Mandrill Bloodname Founder on the board.

[Sjhernan3060]

In the crazy days of the wars of reavings did Mandrills actually succeed in capturing any blood heritages? I know that was always a big goal for them

[WONC]

I'm not sure that's ever addressed in the sourcebook, but someone may remember better than I. Honestly, there's so much actual wiggle room in the Reaving timeline that I wouldn't rule out anything.

[Alan Grant]

What little we know they mostly just fought each other and then got involved in the Reaving stuff. Page 74 of the Wars of Reaving book is Amanda Carrol basically trying to hammer the message that the Mandrills need to stop fighting each other. It's clear from what she says that in recent years the Mandrills went back to infighting mode.

They were also very involved in the chaos on Strana Mechty. Culminating in the warship Jungle Heat razing two Blood Chapels from orbit. But also causing some friendly fire, causing a retaliation that destroyed the Jungle Heat. Fire Mandrill ground forces were also involved.

Another Fire Mandrill warship, the Anathema, arrived at Arkadia and declared Reaving Trials against Snuka and Vong Bloodname Houses. So targeting the Bears. Payne-Beyl-Grant dropped and was smashed by the 4th Bear Regulars, who decided to ignore all Trial decorum and just smash the Mandrills per a decision they made not to recognize the Reaving Trials.

Later Steel Viper, Goliath Scorpion and Coyote units showed up at Shadow to Reave Mick-Kline-Kreese-Sanze. They defeated the Mandrills, then as the Mandrills gathered to present themselves to the Coyotes, the Coyote Elementals slaughtered them (then turned their weapons on the Vipers and Scorpions, this was part of the reveal of The Society).

Mattila-Carrol found itself starving on Barcella. With the complete breakdown of the Homeworlds, they found themselves starving and under attack. Ultimately they tried to push out of their starving cities on the attack looking for supplies. That whittled down their strength and then they were cut down by some Dark Caste forces aligned with The Society.

At Dagda the Scorpions found some Mandrill survivors. The planet had been devastated. The survivors (members of all Mandrill castes) were taken, absorption style but without any fighting except a boxing match. At that point it was a rescue situation basically.

On Atreus things got sad as the world was devastated by a plague outbreak and basically left to die. That included Faraday-Tanaga and some Steel Vipers. Eventually the Blood Spirits passed by, found about 2 Clusters worth of Faraday-Tanaga survivors and their lower castes and absorbed them. The Mandrills willingly accepted their fate, having watched the plague kill an untold number of people around them across the planet.

So, no I don't think they gained many, if any, genetic material during this period. But all we have really are the broader bigger events, not the day-to-day details. What is clear, is that as the Reaving era dragged on and Clan society collapsed around them, the Mandrills were in pure survival mode for basics like food.

[Sjhernan3060]

What little we know they mostly just fought each other and then got involved in the Reaving stuff. Page 74 of the Wars of Reaving book is Amanda Carrol basically trying to hammer the message that the Mandrills need to stop fighting each other. It's clear from what she says that in recent years the Mandrills went back to infighting mode.

They were also very involved in the chaos on Strana Mechty. Culminating in the warship Jungle Heat razing two Blood Chapels from orbit. But also causing some friendly fire, causing a retaliation that destroyed the Jungle Heat. Fire Mandrill ground forces were also involved.

Recognizing the mandrills are a constant mess how could they have survived the readings per the khan urging in the quote above? I think they would have had to play it like the scorps and stay largely out of fray and under the radar. They also would have had to consolidate their holdings and forces. How could the khan enforced a plan like that?

Another Fire Mandrill warship, the Anathema, arrived at Arkadia and declared Reaving Trials against Snuka and Vong Bloodname Houses. So targeting the Bears. Payne-Beyl-Grant dropped and was smashed by the 4th Bear Regulars, who decided to ignore all Trial decorum and just smash the Mandrills per a decision they made not to recognize the Reaving Trials.

Later Steel Viper, Goliath Scorpion and Coyote units showed up at Shadow to Reave Mick-Kline-Kreese-Sanze. They defeated the Mandrills, then as the Mandrills gathered to present themselves to the Coyotes, the Coyote Elementals slaughtered them (then turned their weapons on the Vipers and Scorpions, this was part of the reveal of The Society).

Mattila-Carrol found itself starving on Barcella. With the complete breakdown of the Homeworlds, they found themselves starving and under attack. Ultimately they tried to push out of their starving cities on the attack looking for supplies. That whittled down their strength and then they were cut down by some Dark Caste forces aligned with The Society.

At Dagda the Scorpions found some Mandrill survivors. The planet had been devastated. The survivors (members of all Mandrill castes) were taken, absorption style but without any fighting except a boxing match. At that point it was a rescue situation basically.

On Atreus things got sad as the world was devastated by a plague outbreak and basically left to die. That included Faraday-Tanaga and some Steel Vipers. Eventually the Blood Spirits passed by, found about 2 Clusters worth of Faraday-Tanaga survivors and their lower castes and absorbed them. The Mandrills willingly accepted their fate, having watched the plague kill an untold number of people around them across the planet.

So, no I don't think they gained many, if any, genetic material during this period. But all we have really are the broader bigger events, not the day-to-day details. What is clear, is that as the Reaving era dragged on and Clan society collapsed around them, the Mandrills were in pure survival mode for basics like food.

[Sjhernan3060]

Did the mandrills not see how badly they were being bled by the reavings?

[Decoy]

My guess is no. It was chaos during the Wars of Reavings. On the bright side, the Star Adders have activated a slew of bloodnames they gained from the Mandrills.

[WONC]

My guess is no. It was chaos during the Wars of Reavings. On the bright side, the Star Adders have activated a slew of bloodnames they gained from the Mandrills.

I'm personally only counting that as a bright side if said holders of those bloodnames encounter a handful of actual Mandrill survivors in the Adders, and Kindraa-related hilarity ensues across the Homeworlds.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

The only good thing about that is that they were one of the few Clans NOT Absorbed or Annihilated (or contaminated by the Society). That means if there were any survivors (ancient as they would be) they wouldn’t be automatically reaved.

[tassa_kay]

I'm personally only counting that as a bright side if said holders of those bloodnames encounter a handful of actual Mandrill survivors in the Adders, and Kindraa-related hilarity ensues across the Homeworlds.

As absolutely fun as this idea is, I don't see the Adders tolerating any monkeyshines in their ranks. Sadface, too, because it might actually make the Adders interesting for a change.

[Decoy]

The way I saw it, was that the Star Adders might have been drawn to the Fire Mandrill's solution with the lack of opponents to fight. Clan Warriors must prove themselves, and how do they do that? ;) It's the same problem I have with the Goliath Scorpions in their new hidey hole and the silence of the Homeworld clans. They have no one to fight BUT themselves.

[rebs]

For cohesion and social expediency, the Adders would opt to not teach the sibs born from Mandrill bloodlines much about their former Clan's histories - beyond the basic facts that A) they existed, and B) it didn't work out.

I think the same about all those new Steel Viper bloodnames they have.

[WONC]

For cohesion and social expediency, the Adders would opt to not teach the sibs born from Mandrill bloodlines much about their former Clan's histories - beyond the basic facts that A) they existed, and B) it didn't work out.

I think the same about all those new Steel Viper bloodnames they have.

I know you're right, but the Mandrill/Viper in me just... keeps the hope alive.

[Decoy]

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that challenge is a necessity of Clan warrior life. With the Star Adders exercising extreme restraint, there's going to come a crop of warriors who are willing to turn their eye towards advancement, How do you advance in Clan warrior society? The Warriors will find something to prove themselves against. Even if it's their own clan.

Let's set ourselves in the shoes of a 20 year old Scorpion Empire trueborn warrior. That's the only honor you have to your name and are likely to have to your name. Sure, you might shoot up a pirate and skoosh a few Hanseatic rebels, but those aren't what makes a bloodname warrior, are they? You need to win glory for your house and yourself. You need to prove that your line is worthy to continue. With no other real viable targets, this leads to internal conflict. I imagine a similar fate, but slightly muted for the Star Adders, as they have a few other clans to play off of.

The Kindrasc system is an inevitable outcome of the clan system if there is a lack of external opportunities. Heh. It could fall down to bloodhouse vs. bloodhouse or bloodlineage vs. bloodlineage as things devolve and elements compete over resources.

[rebs]

I know you're right, but the Mandrill/Viper in me just... keeps the hope alive.

Nothing wrong with that.

In fact, there are probably all manner of ways they could unearth the truth of their past, and then hold it against the Adders.

But I think the Adders will learn lessons from the Burrock situation - you can bend over backwards trying to appease the warriors with new 'mechs and things to keep them occupied, but it still ended up being a societal catastrophe.  That's why I figured they would just do the Clan thing and omit and rewrite history they dislike.

[Alan Grant]

To me, them rising to prominence in the Adders by the time we see them next would be the most "win" I can imagine for them.

Imagine we see Clan Star Adder again in the universe again, and it's Khan Michael Faraday and saKhan Abigail Breen in charge. Not only have the Adders put those bloodnames to work, they've risen to some prominence in their new Clan. That would be.... amusing.

As for challenges and contests, they do have other Clans to spare against. It's just not as many as before. But they never were engaging with ALL the other Clans all of the time. Pre-Wars of Reaving each Clan typically had its 1-3 Clans that it was feuding with that it fought a lot and the others not as much and some Clans they didn't engage with hardly at all. But as part of the Clan way, you even Trial against your political allies sometimes as a way to settle disputes and provide that challenge for your warriors that you spoke of. So, I'm less concerned about this.

The Adders were also the Clan that had an OpFor Galaxy, to spare against internally. So yes, they might invent ways to spare against each other internally. But they can do it in ways that don't incur as much death and equipment destruction, but still provide some version of honor/glory/bragging rights. Think about Clan equivalents to the Martial Olympiad by various unit size scales. As long as that society agrees there's honor and prestige in it (e.g. doing well there can make you attractive as a contender for a Bloodname), it should sate some of the warriors' need for that kind of thing.

But doing it along the lines of these old dead Clans isn't smart. Better to put the warriors together by units, by Clusters, Galaxies, and build up a strong cohesion with their fellow warriors (not segregated by bloodname origin).

At this point the Clans gotta be looking at the Fire Mandrill Kindraa system and see is as purely a failure. They survived, but they never really thrived and then they died. It's clear by the opinions the other Clans expressed of them in FM: CC and FM: WC that the other Clans (except perhaps the Blood Spirits, but they are gone too) never really had a high opinion of the Mandrills. Not something you draw inspiration from.

As a faction I actually find the Mandrills interesting, I particularly loved the detail the Mandrills' entry in FM: CC gave to some of the Kindraa bloodnames. Telling us what they were good at, showing more of the Bloodname House politics that I find interesting. But the Kindraa system provided more downsides than upsides. I really think the only reason the Mandrills survived for so long is because the nature of Clan Trial warfare in the Homeworlds limited the scope of potential damage, and confined a lot of Trials to small scale affairs. That environment, the Mandrills could manage to hold their own in. They just had to make sure no Clan ever went total war on them, in a manner akin to the Adders versus the Blood Spirits even pre-WoR. Or in a manner akin to the Wolves vs Jade Falcons in the Refusal War. They were never going to survive that kind of full court press, and amazingly they avoided that scenario, until the Wars of Reaving happened.

Personally I'd argue that the Mandrills as a Clan died at Arcadia. Payne-Beyl-Grant showed up and declared Reaving Trials for Snuka and Vong. They got obliterated in that fight.

The very next move we read about, the Goliath Scorpions, Steel Vipers, Coyotes and others are moving against Mick-Kline-Kreese-Sainze to reave them. The Mandrills weren't a tainted Clan. So it wasn't about taint. I think it was because at that point the Mandrills had 3 Kindraa left, probably just three Galaxies, and those galaxies were fragmented Kindraa style. The other Clans decided that the Mandrills were now weak, too weak to be a Clan, and needed to be removed from the board. Yes two Kindraa survived past that point, but even without the Wars of Reaving they would have been easy targets for absorption, and as the WoR did happen, they largely fell to starvation and plague.

The Homeworld Clans decided that the Mandrills needed to go, but the Mandrill eugenics program was full of generations of genetic legacies of elite warriors with an excellent codex (and no Inner Sphere taint). Some genetic diamonds to be dug up in there.

[tassa_kay]

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that challenge is a necessity of Clan warrior life. With the Star Adders exercising extreme restraint, there's going to come a crop of warriors who are willing to turn their eye towards advancement, How do you advance in Clan warrior society? The Warriors will find something to prove themselves against. Even if it's their own clan.

That was the whole point of the Adders sending an expeditionary force to take staging worlds in the Hanseatic League, to bleed off the internal pressures they're facing from the Aggressors. Unfortunately, it seems TPTB have decided to go another route, because it's been several decades now and nothing has come of this plotline at all beyond taking those initial staging worlds. Unless the Adders really think they need 50+ years to prepare for a fight against the Hanseatic League/Scorpion Empire.

[Fire Mandrill]

I'm from the year 3200 in BT lore. This is what happened to the Fire Mandrills.

The Wolves will single-handedly defeat entire Adder-led galaxies over and over with 1 Star. BT writers soon rename BattleTech to WolfTech. All clans, tired of toiling in mediocrity, throw themselves at the mercy of the wolves. The Great Houses launch the 8th Succession War (5-7 were defeated by the wolves already, of course). But the Wolves cut through all opposition in just weeks while simultaneously defeating all houses, re-colonizing the former Homeworlds renaming them the WolfWorlds. Kerensky is renamed to Kerwolfsky.

This enraged all other clans. They unite and abjured clans are reinstated immediately but the wolves invent immortality against everything and just win no matter what. The Fire Mandrills killed each other and are left with 1 Star remaining per Kindraa. Learning nothing for centuries are defeated by everyone despite having the most battle tested MechWarriors that ever existed. But somehow they are elected as an IlKhan. However, he is assassinated just hours later. In the meantime they still learn nothing and see nothing happening around them and instead decide to just attack any and everyone more powerful than them. Wait a sec... this is sounding familiar....

[Alan Grant]

LOL Fire Mandrill.


Sorry for the pivot but I actually do have a question. As an RPG game type character I'm working on a Bloodnamed Sainze pilot who is taken bondsman by another Clan, regained warrior status and is serving the new Clan. He's not as prickly or as uncooperative as the Mandrills are generally. He's more cooperative, accepted.

The interesting twist is this guy does not commit Seppuku, which if you look it up is a big deal. Sainze warriors taken who commit Seppuku may still see their genetic legacy put to use. Sainze warriors also know they will never be accepted back.

I'm pondering a couple things.

1. Would he be treated by his new Clan any differently that another Bloodnamed bondsman-turned warrior in his new Clan?
2. I'm looking for creative plot ideas as to why he would chose to this path, knowing it meant he would be shunned by Kindraa Sainze for doing so, and that despite having a Bloodname, his genetic material would never be used. Like an unbloodnamed warrior, his line would end with him. So what are some good motivations for why he would do this?

We're talking pre-Wars of Reaving here, if that distinction matters.