“Save” the Jags

[JadeHellbringer]

If Serpent had shown up and turned their guns on population centers, it would have meant apocalypse. For the Jaguar civilians, for sure, but for Serpent as well.

Think about it. The other Clans were horrified by Turtle Bay, leading to the Wolves declaring warship use to be out as a tactic from then on in the invasion. The other Clans had to follow suit as a result. The use of such a tactic was seen as being a grave dishonor by the other Clans, and even the Jaguars afterwards seemed mixed about it at best.

Now imagine an Inner Sphere fleet shows up and does the same thing in revenge.

...Now remember the reaction the previous time a Clan used WMD attacks- the nuclear attack on Dehra Dun. And how THAT turned out. (Yes, I know the Wolverines may not have ended up being responsible, but the Clans in 3060 don't know that.)

Rather than facing Clan Smoke Jaguar- and winning only thanks to the arrival of Bulldog (a plot point I've always hated, btw), Serpent now has probably enraged at least several Clans, if not all of them. Not only does Serpent get swallowed up by a sea of angry Clanners, it probably causes the Clans to not only never deal with the Great Refusal, it invalidates the Tukayyid Truce (Comstar ships, after all, just dishonored their faction with such a heinous act- why give them the respect of honoring the deal?).

If Serpent fires a single shot at a city with their warships, they win a temporary victory at best- and guarantee the response from the rest of the Clans, both in the Homeworlds and back in the Inner Sphere when news reaches there, will bring about the kind of horror and loss of life the 3050 invasion merely hinted at.

[False Son]

Think about it. The other Clans were horrified by Turtle Bay, leading to the Wolves declaring warship use to be out as a tactic from then on in the invasion. The other Clans had to follow suit as a result. The use of such a tactic was seen as being a grave dishonor by the other Clans, and even the Jaguars afterwards seemed mixed about it at best.

Am I the only one that takes everything said by the Wolves in the period with a grain of salt?  Ulric was so against the invasion he tried every bend in the Clan honor code to obstruct it.  Of course, the Jaguars were playing right into the Wolf anti-invasion narrative.

[Sjhernan3060]

Timeline and errata question:

When did the Clans know that Bulldog was coming?

How much did the IS bring?

Do we know what a fully functioning Clan SDS system would involve?

To be clear the Jags are bad guys and gals who deserved what they got I am just interested in crafting a story where their best/worst elements are melded into another clan. 

[Sjhernan3060]

Another wacky candidate to do a run in:

On Huntress would be the  Cloud Cobras! Now hear me out they were always very self serving and sneaky and I am curious as to how their Aero heavy clusters would have fared against Serpent

Also in the scenario I am looking at its after the 2nd naval battle over Huntress so Serpernts fleet is pretty shot up. How much do you think would be needed to crush it?

[Vition2]

When did the Clans know that Bulldog was coming?

How much did the IS bring?

I think you actually mean Serpent here, Bulldog was the operation to eject the Jaguars from their Inner Sphere occupation zone.  Serpent was the attack on the Jaguar's Kerensky Cluster holdings. 

In Bulldog, it's unlikely that the Clans, as a whole, knew anything of it at all until the first wave actually started - the clans don't consider decent intel services necessary and are still not familiar with war across such a large front as they have in the IS.  The Nova Cats and the Wolves-in-Exile both participated in Bulldog, aiding the second Star League forces, so were likely in on at least part of the planning, perhaps as much as 6 months before the actual start.  The attack here, ended up including roughly 80 regiments and a galaxy from each of the Nova Cats and the Wolves-in-exile, so there was roughly a 5-1 battlemech ratio in favor of the Inner Sphere.

Operation Serpent consisted of a battalion short of 11 regiments and was performed in as much secrecy as possible.  The IS intel agencies spread false rumors about the size (making it out to be much smaller than it actually was), and again the clan watch was crap and little paid attention to, so even if they did hear about it they wouldn't think all that much about it.  The commander of the Huntress forces was surprised when they showed up in system, though he got over it.  The primary point where it could have really struck home was during the Trafalgar battle, where Serpent came upon a Ghost Bear convoy, an HPG broadcast to other GB units are possible, but if that occurred, the GBs didn't share - this would have been about 3 months before Serpent arrived over Huntress.

Do we know what a fully functioning Clan SDS system would involve?

No, but we can guess based on what the Star League had before and during the Amaris Coup.  This included the M series drones (of which there are 11 ranging from the 50 ton M-1 BlackWasp fighter to the massive M-11 Da Vinci class service station (based on the Newgrange-class yardships).  Due to the way the clans fought the SDS would have been among the last places resources would be placed, so the idea that anything more than Fighters (M-1s) and small repair and refit stations (M-7s and M-8s) would be pushing it, though a few dropship sized drones are a possibility (M-2s or M-3s).  There would, of course be some manned ASF and Attack Dropships available to the spaceborne defenses as well, but none of these would hold a candle to the 7 real warships included in Serpent.

[Sjhernan3060]

Thanks for the info on the SDS system!

RE: Bulldogg I meant how much did Victor bring to homeworlds after the Jags were driven out of their OZ?

[Maingunnery]

No, but we can guess based on what the Star League had before and during the Amaris Coup.  This included the M series drones (of which there are 11 ranging from the 50 ton M-1 BlackWasp fighter to the massive M-11 Da Vinci class service station (based on the Newgrange-class yardships).  Due to the way the clans fought the SDS would have been among the last places resources would be placed, so the idea that anything more than Fighters (M-1s) and small repair and refit stations (M-7s and M-8s) would be pushing it, though a few dropship sized drones are a possibility (M-2s or M-3s).  There would, of course be some manned ASF and Attack Dropships available to the spaceborne defenses as well, but none of these would hold a candle to the 7 real warships included in Serpent.

Kerensky despised robotic drones, the Clan SDS would stick to manned systems, such as an Clan version of the Bastion.

[Colt Ward]

Couple points . . . if Serpent had burned down the cities from orbit and word reached the Grand Council, I think the limited invasion would be over along with the Warden/Crusader divide about invading.  After that it would only matter as to how they treated the IS populations.

I think the Sharks would probably have been Osis best bet, especially if he had approached them privately.  IMO the question is how did Vlad find out where to face Hawker to halt his movement?  I do not remember hearing how exactly he knew where to go which does create some interesting questions.  Such a 'buy-in' to the Inner Sphere due to negotiations with Osis would have appealled to Hawker & Co's as well as his saKhan's merchant/dealing desire- especially if the deal was left for the saKhan and Angus Labov to negotiate . . . A few worlds near the border, more interior as 'trading worlds' for anyone to visit.

Would the 2SL even hold up if they bombarded Huntress?

And here is a fun twist . . . what if a Word of Blake division or two using the equipment caches out towards Clan space had dropped onto Huntress in the wake of the OZ survivors to rescue Serpent?

[snewsom2997]

I am of the opinion that the Jags were terminally stupid, due to writers. Without rewriting everything back to Klondike, they were always going to be terminally stupid. The Jags took the competition Nicky K had fostered with the trial system and turned it to 11, they tuned all Nicky Ks bad ideas to 11, which is why they died. Their culture didn't become elastic enough to change until it was too late. On top of all this they thought they could carry the trial system to the IS, and the IS would respect that, when the IS has been fighting wars to the hilt for 300+ years.

[Bren]

... facing Clan Smoke Jaguar- and winning only thanks to the arrival of Bulldog (a plot point I've always hated, btw) ...

Me too, to the extent that I can't help but always think what I would do differently if I were in the driver's seat ...

I would have had Smoke Jaguar defeat Bulldog, and just as they were having their relief-saturated moment of victory - they notice aallll of the other Clans circling like piranhas. End of Smoke Jaguar.

Bonus to this: I also always hated the Great Refusal. So as the Clans are hungry-hungry hippoing all things Jaguar and Nova Cat, this is the spark that kicks off the Reaving. This of course would be sufficiently destructive as to indefinitely end the Clan invasion - without Victor's Trial of Refusal.

Sorry for the slight derail.

[Colt Ward]

Because in real life no group or nation is ever so short sighted they cannot adapt.  The Clans as a whole were written to have problems, and you are right that one of the more extreme Clans were going to have more/sooner.  Sure they were short sighted, but its not like the writers did not have any historical examples to draw on in what they made- just like the rest of the universe.

[Terminax]

*times travels to just before the Outbound Light misjumps to Huntress and detonates a nuke destroying the Jumpship and preventing the Clan invasion*

Smoke jaguars saved. My work here is done.

[Gaiiten]

*times travels to just before the Outbound Light misjumps to Huntress and detonates a nuke destroying the Jumpship and preventing the Clan invasion*

Smoke jaguars saved. My work here is done.

Rapid Jaguar crusaders declare this was a failed Spheroid attempt to nuke their homeworld and a more brutal Clan invasion begins.

IMHO nothing could have stopped the first Clan invasion. The time was ripe.

[False Son]

Smoke jaguars saved. My work here is done.

Wait!  Then we have no Fidelis!  O0

[Maingunnery]

Wait!  Then we have no Fidelis!  O0

None will notice.

[Sjhernan3060]

Getting back on topic I want to sketch out a clear game and narrative scenario:

Leading candidate goes something like this:

Osis asks for help as written but khan mavali fletcher of the hells horses who has been searching for a way to vault his clan to invader status steps up.

Fletcher declares osis unfit for the ilkhanship since his lack of foresight and leadership allowed the inner sphere access to the homeworlds. He challenges osis on his fitness for command and defeats him.

Now at this point he could requests a trial of absorption against the jags. What are the rules around that again?

Or he could just dramatically declare his intention to " wipe out the barbarians" and head to huntress sans council approval.

So with that being said what would the horses need to slay the serpents?

The serpent fleet was battered after the 2nd naval engagement with the horses expertise in infantry and battle armor tactics can we assume they would have the skills to attempt to board and capture the remaining serpent warships?

To finish the ground fight I woukd bring alpha keshik along with beta Galaxy command and the 666 assault cluster a total of 7 trinaries of elite crusaders in top flight equipment with experiance in all manner of terrain.
 

[rebs]

You make it sound like they did the orbital bombardment thing all the time.

I mean, sure, there were all the numerous other terrible things they did involving burning down towns, but they only nuked a place from orbit once, right?   ;D

Only the Mongeese on Fianna, after apparently telling the ilKhan that it would not be fair to have to fight their way onto the fortified island continent. 

And I think they bombarded their own citizens during the Londerholm Revolt/shoe riot. 

Then Edo on Turtle Bay.

So, they really liked to fall back on one particular space-to-ground tactic.  But more than once.  They just didn't do it often.  It was like their Mortal Combat finishing move.

[Archangel]

Because in real life no group or nation is ever so short sighted they cannot adapt.

Historically there are plenty of such groups but they tend to be relegated to the dustbins of history or are otherwise forced to submit to more powerful opponents just like the Smoke Jaguars were.  The Romans, the Byzantinians, Aztecs, Incas, most European nobility, many Asian empires, etc.  There are numerous examples of military forces and their leaders being slow, if not unable to adapt to the evolving nature of the battlefield not to mention many examples of arrogant field commanders' overconfidence in the inevitability of their victory that they fail to take the steps needed to achieving it.

[Colt Ward]

I know, which is why I was using that to respond to snewsom.

Heck, pulling from you listed you could say the writers made the Aztecs REALLY terminally stupid.  Best warriors around, defeating everyone, lording it over the conquered and nominal allies and BAM! some nobody leading an expedition into their home destroys them.

[jklantern]

Only the Mongeese on Fianna, after apparently telling the ilKhan that it would not be fair to have to fight their way onto the fortified island continent. 

And I think they bombarded their own citizens during the Londerholm Revolt/shoe riot. 

Then Edo on Turtle Bay.

So, they really liked to fall back on one particular space-to-ground tactic.  But more than once.  They just didn't do it often.  It was like their Mortal Combat finishing move.

So they're like Smoke in MK3:  When in doubt, blow up the planet!

[rebs]

So they're like Smoke in MK3:  When in doubt, blow up the planet!

Yes.  A nicer version of the Covenant.  Generally speaking.

[Sjhernan3060]

While I agree that few clans could have stopped the bulldog 2nd wave could not the victors of the fight against Tsf And the recent absorbers of the jags say " nope no jags here!"

[Sjhernan3060]

If another clan had trialed for the sibkos or linages of the jags would they have been stopped you think?

[marauder648]

That's interesting point. Maybe IS forces didn't do it so that they could show that they are better than that. After all they were led by Victor Steiner-Davion who's as archtypical good guy as you can get in BT.

That and if they did that the Clans would have gone nuts.  You may as well drop a nuke on Strana Mechty and see the response to that.

[Kit deSummersville]

If another clan had trialed for the sibkos or linages of the jags would they have been stopped you think?

The legacy of a weak clan that was crushed by Inner Sphere trashborn? Who'd want that?

[Gaiiten]

Some did.
See Wars of Reaving, page 100, Fall of Szabo:

While some of the lines had since been claimed by several Clans in the years after the Annihilation of the Jaguars, most of them simply remained in cold storage within the massive mountain facility.

[Sjhernan3060]

Loving the discussion on this, I will run two different scenarios. One where the Horses come in and one with the Blood Spirits. I am curious to see how they will pan out...

[Kit deSummersville]

The Blood Spirits? The clan that got chewed up by jumping into a Trial of Absorption the previous year?

[Sjhernan3060]

Yes sir! Looking back Post Reavings and all the bad choices they made that ended in their death - I figure I would run a scenario where they would roll the dice again but ( hopefully) will net some gains. Namely a Galaxy of troops, protomech tech even earlier, a few warships etc.

Considering the other crazy things they did this seems not so wacky to me...

[Kit deSummersville]

Well, it's a complete 180 from their isolationist ideals at the time and the exact opposite of what they actually did but if it floats your boat....