Doctor Who: Where did I leave the Tardis?

[Ruger]

Well, now we know at least part of the story of the Timeless Child.

Except: from where did the child originate?

And, was what was revealed the real truth, partial truth and partial lies, or was it all lies?

Ruger

[monbvol]

It's all true.  Especially the lies.

[Wrangler]

Well, now we know at least part of the story of the Timeless Child.

Except: from where did the child originate?

And, was what was revealed the real truth, partial truth and partial lies, or was it all lies?

Ruger

More like re-written by current writing staff.

[ActionButler]

A lot of people are mad, and I get it.  Last night's episode does aggressively alter the story that we've been told for 50 years.  But... I still don't hate the reveal. 

As far as I'm concerned Hartnell is still the First.  He may not have been the first face that the Doctor wore, but he was the first face that we met and, since we still don't know where Ruth fits, he may still very well be the first regeneration to call himself the Doctor.  It changes the scale of the Doctor's life, but it doesn't change who the Doctor is.

Honestly, I'm kind of glad the did what they did. The Doctor has had an extremely static relationship with Gallifey and the Time Lords for a really long time.  Once we found out about regeneration, and then the Time Lords, and then Gallifrey, and then Omega and Rassilon, the story of the Time Lords was pretty much unchanged until we thought they had been wiped out.  This is a new thread, and I'm interested to see where it goes. 

[Wrangler]

I've not gotten viewing wise as far as you guys have, all i can see is alternate universe from what we've been watching for last 50 years what has some tweeks changes it.

I am trying catch up, but...

This becoming like a Star Trek split reality thing (network & film studio in denial their not different universes and past is unchanged) which going suck fun out of it for some people way they keep radically changing the story for sake for ratings.   

[Lorcan Nagle]

They've been radically changing the story for almost 60 years now.  The Doctor Who writers and producers don't care about continuity, they never have, and likely never will.

[ActionButler]

They've been radically changing the story for almost 60 years now.  The Doctor Who writers and producers don't care about continuity, they never have, and likely never will.

This.

The idea of pre-Hartnell lives dates back at least as early as the Tom Baker years. Nevermind the fact that there is still no solid explanation for either the Valeyard or the Curator.

[Jaim Magnus]

I like it, mostly. Going forward, they won't have to handwave a new regeneration cycle for the Doctor. And it brings make the mystery of the character.

[Wrangler]

So only way tell people who write it "We don't like what your doing" is not to watch?

[Lorcan Nagle]

So only way tell people who write it "We don't like what your doing" is not to watch?

As it always has been.

[Ruger]

This.

The idea of pre-Hartnell lives dates back at least as early as the Tom Baker years. Nevermind the fact that there is still no solid explanation for either the Valeyard or the Curator.

Yeah, just watch “The Brain of Morbius”, which shows other regenerations of the Doctor that are not the ones we’ve seen elsewhere.

Ruger

[Wrangler]

Oh, so they dragged out old plot line from Baker Episode?  I like Tom Baker, but not all the scripts were winners, this one was compromised story made by Producer Philip Hinchcliffe. Reminds me of some questionable plots old scifis novels had back in 70s.   I'm not sure this was great idea.

EDIT: I was trying say bad scifi.  One with vague notions, throw away plots that weren't that good.

I'd just don't like seeing the Doctor into unique being. If this is solid, now he/she not even a Timelord all together or a being from Gallifrey

[Talen5000]

A lot of people are mad, and I get it.  Last night's episode does aggressively alter the story that we've been told for 50 years.  But... I still don't hate the reveal. 

I'm not sure whether I "hate" it.

But - it also doesn't really make sense.

The story that we have been told is that the TimeLords were one of the first races to emerge.
That Gallifrey was unique in that it held the Untempered Schism
That it was the exposure to the Time Vortex through the Untempered Schism that changed the course of Time Lord evolution, that granted them (and River Song) the power of regeneration and eventually, through Rassilon and Omega, led to their mastery of time and their sensitivity to it.

That storyline kinda makes sense in a way the Timeless Child does not.

Which is at once too much change and yet not enough...for all the Masters build up, this supposed revelation changes very little. It is supposedy a big secret but the secret is that the Shabogans used genetic engineering to grant themsleves regeneration rather than evolving it naturally?

That was a very underwhelming secret.

It also makes the Doctor "special" in a way he never was before.

I have no problem with their being Doctors pre-Hartnell. That has long been suspected and even hinted at.
And I like this better than what i was afraid of - that Gallifreyans were going to be human survivors from the Cyber Wars sent back in time through the boundary

But it also isn't a secret worthy of being a secret.

[hoosierhick]

Is there a good place to find out how this season has been doing in the ratings?  I tried looking a few weeks ago and got everything from "it's doing fine" to "it's getting the worst ratings since just before it was cancelled in the 80's."  I also went poking around for the numbers, but I found what looked like the ones for the UK, and I probably wouldn't have understood what they were saying even if I found the ones for the US.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Is there a good place to find out how this season has been doing in the ratings?  I tried looking a few weeks ago and got everything from "it's doing fine" to "it's getting the worst ratings since just before it was cancelled in the 80's."  I also went poking around for the numbers, but I found what looked like the ones for the UK, and I probably wouldn't have understood what they were saying even if I found the ones for the US.

UK ratings are the only ones that really matter to the BBC's decision-making process, and they're listed on Wikipedia.  They're down a bit on last year, but floating around or just below the same levels they were at in Moffat's last year or two.  They are around the same level that the show was at when it was put on hiatus in 89, but given the massive disparity in TV options between 1989 and now (most UK households had access to 4 TV channels in 1989, and you have dozens even if all you have is freeview these days), that's not as bad as people might make it out to seem.

[hoosierhick]

UK ratings are the only ones that really matter to the BBC's decision-making process, and they're listed on Wikipedia.  They're down a bit on last year, but floating around or just below the same levels they were at in Moffat's last year or two.  They are around the same level that the show was at when it was put on hiatus in 89, but given the massive disparity in TV options between 1989 and now (most UK households had access to 4 TV channels in 1989, and you have dozens even if all you have is freeview these days), that's not as bad as people might make it out to seem.

Thanks!

[Wrangler]

Very good explanation, Talen5000.   I knew some of this but i haven't read it in a long time and forgot about it!

[Ruger]

You know, now that I think about it, this revelation also helps explain all the different control rooms that “Sexy” said she had stored in her memory when she and the Doctor were trying to get back on the TARDIS after House stole it in “The Doctor’s Wife”. Especially if “Sexy” was the TARDIS the Doctor used in his time with the Division.

As to not being a secret worth keeping, it all depends on exactly how the Master feels about the Doctor. With his insanity twisting his mind, such a “betrayal” by those in authority of someone he feels so strongly about may have thrown him over another edge.

Ruger

[Talen5000]

You know, now that I think about it, this revelation also helps explain all the different control rooms that “Sexy” said she had stored in her memory when she and the Doctor were trying to get back on the TARDIS after House stole it in “The Doctor’s Wife”. Especially if “Sexy” was the TARDIS the Doctor used in his time with the Division.

As to not being a secret worth keeping, it all depends on exactly how the Master feels about the Doctor. With his insanity twisting his mind, such a “betrayal” by those in authority of someone he feels so strongly about may have thrown him over another edge.

Ruger

I was thinking about the Time Lords.

The Master is angry because, if this is true, he apparently has a tiny bit of the Doctor inside him.

The Time Lords kept the secret that regeneration came about because of genetic engineering...which, especially given River Song proves that exposure to the Time Vortex grants regeneration, also appears to be a lie.

[Ruger]

I was thinking about the Time Lords.

The Master is angry because, if this is true, he apparently has a tiny bit of the Doctor inside him.

The Time Lords kept the secret that regeneration came about because of genetic engineering...which, especially given River Song proves that exposure to the Time Vortex grants regeneration, also appears to be a lie.

It could be the first few Time Lords got regeneration from the Doctor, and then some lived long enough or they finally got access to the Time Vortex afterwards and learned that it could give them regenerations. It could be that only older people got regenerations from the Timeless Child, and then their children got it from exposure to the Time Vortex. IOW’s, the latter only affects those unborn exposed to it, or only up to a certain age.

At the end of the day, it will be whatever the story at the time demands it to be.

Ruger

[Talen5000]

It could be the first few Time Lords got regeneration from the Doctor, and then some lived long enough or they finally got access to the Time Vortex afterwards and learned that it could give them regenerations. It could be that only older people got regenerations from the Timeless Child, and then their children got it from exposure to the Time Vortex. IOW’s, the latter only affects those unborn exposed to it, or only up to a certain age.

At the end of the day, it will be whatever the story at the time demands it to be.

Ruger

Sure, but that doesn't excuse that the secret - no, today - isn't really "terrible" or "deep and dark"

[Ruger]

Sure, but that doesn't excuse that the secret - no, today - isn't really "terrible" or "deep and dark"

Maybe not to us, but to the mind of an insane megalomaniac obsessed with the Doctor, and how they are so alike?

Ruger

[Cannonshop]

Maybe not to us, but to the mind of an insane megalomaniac obsessed with the Doctor, and how they are so alike?

Ruger

only, this makes them not really alike at all-particularly if this is 'the big sekrit.'  The conflict between The Master and The Doctor has always been one of two equals, equally resourceful, equally intelligent, equally resilient, but morally opposite.  all this does, is diminish that equality-now The Master's 'equal' status is hinged on having a bit of the Doctor in them, rather than simply being (and more interestingly being) someone who turned right instead of left in their development to become a true nemesis.

[Ruger]

only, this makes them not really alike at all-particularly if this is 'the big sekrit.'  The conflict between The Master and The Doctor has always been one of two equals, equally resourceful, equally intelligent, equally resilient, but morally opposite.  all this does, is diminish that equality-now The Master's 'equal' status is hinged on having a bit of the Doctor in them, rather than simply being (and more interestingly being) someone who turned right instead of left in their development to become a true nemesis.

EXACTLY!

THAT is exactly why the Master took the revelation so hard! THAT is why he killed his fellow Time Lords!

Ruger

[Cannonshop]

EXACTLY!

THAT is exactly why the Master took the revelation so hard! THAT is why he killed his fellow Time Lords!

Ruger

because he found out his story was being written by a hack?

[ANS Kamas P81]

because he found out his story was being written by a hack mere human?

[gyedid]

So, who is Rassilon then?

Cheers, Gabe

[Talen5000]

Maybe not to us, but to the mind of an insane megalomaniac obsessed with the Doctor, and how they are so alike?

Ruger

It wouldn't be just the Master.

It would be all the Time Lords involved with keeping it...with wiping the Doctors memories over billions of years.

[Lorcan Nagle]

So, who is Rassilon then?

Cheers, Gabe

Timothy Dalton

[monbvol]

Timothy Dalton

Y'know that'd explain a few things about a certain super spy...