Speculating and Suggesting New Weapons and Tech

[Adastra]

Then how would the gyro stabilized plane become unstable and thus more maneuverable?  :-\

Cool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_moment_gyroscope#Mechanics

This is the sort of system being suggested for ASFs. It's used in real spacecraft as a way to rotate without propellant.

A gyro consists of a large mass with motors to spin it. On a battlemech, that spin is consistent, giving the mech more stability like a spinning top. For an ASF gyro, you can use a gimbal to rotate the spinning gyro, which will in turn rotate the ASF due to conservation of angular momentum. It's more or less the classic "every action creates an equal and opposite reaction" but using internal components rather than thrusters.

It wouldn't be more or less stable per se, but it would allow for turning without consuming propellant. Thus, in conjunction with conventional attitude thrusters, you can turn faster for a given amount of propellant.

Also, the paradigm of marginal stability that makes for a good fighter only really applies in atmosphere, where it's interaction with the air that turns the aircraft. In space, the closest equivalent to "stability" would be mass distribution. A spacecraft with more mass further away from the center of mass will require more energy to rotate than one where the mass is very compact and centered.

[Atarlost]

Actually, gyros may matter a lot more in atmosphere depending on how powerful they are.  Have you seen the way people maneuver spaceplanes with reaction wheels in Kerbal Space Program?  They can make a lot tighter turns than would be possible with just aerodynamic maneuvering surfaces. 

[Adastra]

Actually, gyros may matter a lot more in atmosphere depending on how powerful they are.  Have you seen the way people maneuver spaceplanes with reaction wheels in Kerbal Space Program?  They can make a lot tighter turns than would be possible with just aerodynamic maneuvering surfaces.

Apparently, KSP's reaction wheels are pretty severely overpowered compared to real-world examples. On the order of 4 times or so. It also doesn't differentiate between reaction wheels and control moment gyroscopes. Reaction wheels in KSP can also apply rotational torque indefinitely, which is not the case for the real deal. Such systems in real life can rotate an object indefinitely, but have a limit on how much total angular acceleration they can produce. I definitely don't have the expertise to explain it, but basically, KSP reaction wheels don't obey physics and are much stronger than they would be in real life.

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/10622/how-powerful-are-reaction-control-wheels#:~:text=18)%2C%20due%20to%20the%20fact,the%20reaction%20wheels%20in%20KSP!

The top answer is someone who goes into the details

[RifleMech]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_moment_gyroscope#Mechanics

This is the sort of system being suggested for ASFs. It's used in real spacecraft as a way to rotate without propellant.

A gyro consists of a large mass with motors to spin it. On a battlemech, that spin is consistent, giving the mech more stability like a spinning top. For an ASF gyro, you can use a gimbal to rotate the spinning gyro, which will in turn rotate the ASF due to conservation of angular momentum. It's more or less the classic "every action creates an equal and opposite reaction" but using internal components rather than thrusters.

It wouldn't be more or less stable per se, but it would allow for turning without consuming propellant. Thus, in conjunction with conventional attitude thrusters, you can turn faster for a given amount of propellant.

Also, the paradigm of marginal stability that makes for a good fighter only really applies in atmosphere, where it's interaction with the air that turns the aircraft. In space, the closest equivalent to "stability" would be mass distribution. A spacecraft with more mass further away from the center of mass will require more energy to rotate than one where the mass is very compact and centered.

Cool. Thanks :)

[Kret69]

Some form of assisting drones, more sophisticated computer network with some hacking options, an AI-like SL lostech that managed, for example, a deployable SDS system.

[Daemion]

On new tech, I would like to see Inner Sphere tech ProtoMechs.  I'm thinking things more along the lines of Heavy Gear.

[Lone-Wolf]

There is ONE weapons System I would like to have the stats - and that is non-negotiable.

It is the Head Hunter Missile.
It is mentioned in the old Star League Handbook and the 2750 book, but there were never any stats published.

My ideas:

Bolt on Armor/weapons cough ROBOTECH cough Veritech / Armored Veritech.
For those who dont know: Enter a Crusader, who fires some missiles, and then drops armor and beneath is a Phoenix Hawk.
So, you take your 4/6/0 heavy Battlemech, bolt on some one shot weapons, HS and armor, and now your movement is reduced to 3/5/3 and when you loose too much of it, you push a button, all the extra stuff is blown off and your pristine (or near pristine) mech comes to the fore.

Hypervelocity missiles, guns. No, I dont mean more damage, I mean really really fast missiles, shells that do 1/1/1 Damage = 1 point damage front armor, 1 point damage IS and 1 point damage rear armor.

[idea weenie]

On new tech, I would like to see Inner Sphere tech ProtoMechs.  I'm thinking things more along the lines of Heavy Gear.

I'd like to see a steady construction option going from barely any tonnage to 200 tons.  You start out with a torso-mounted Smartgun mount, move up to powered exoskeletons, add armor to them, move the limbs of the operator so their body is only in the head and torso of the PA, eventually the operator is just in the torso, start shifting main power from battery to fusion plants (ultra-light Mechs) meaning you need torso room for the reactor and wind up forcing the operator back into the head, then pure fusion plant (Mechs).

Batteries would have the advantage that thy can be mounted anywhere in the armor that there is space, but don't have a lot of endurance
Fuel Cells in Battlearmor (and other platforms) would be more massive, but provide higher energy density compared to batteries.  Their fuel plants require better consideration of where they are mounted
Fusion plants are providing all the power a unit needs, but are relatively massive

Personally, I'd want to reduce the power provided per battery, and just make a comment that most PA equipped units will bring a Fuel Cell or Fusion charger with them to keep their cells topped off.  Energy weapons fire would use either the weapon's own power cells, or suit power.  Power Armor would thus have a fixed amount of power points that they use up during the battle, and once out of power they cannot move or power weapons from suit power.  This power would be restored by climbing on a friendly Omnivehicle, attaching to an intact unit that had intact PA recharge links, or using a dedicated building power supply.  This would turn PA into anchored ambush predators, as they are using limited time batteries to fire off a lot of firepower, trusting that they can recharge afterwards.


Power for a unit that uses fusion (or fuel cell) and battery power would use the existing heat chart, but with extra capacity at the bottom.  The extra capacity would reflect what the batteries can handle (similar to an Elemental's battery).  The more batteries you have, the more power you have available.  The more power you use, the more 'heat' builds up (reflecting that you don't have the power to move weapons around as fast, that you aren't ablee to move the leg myomers as quickly, aso).  Every turn, the power production of a fusion or fuel cell power system would remove some of the 'heat' from the scale, indicating that the reactor has recharged some of the batteries.  If using a Fuel Cell you would have to keep track of how many turns of power it uses up, but Fuel cell would provide more power per kilogram than a battery.

On-mount capacitors for PA energy weapons would provide more energy per kilo than the suit battery, but that is because they are dedicated to that energy weapon.  Converting that energy back to suit power should be a slow process, and not really practical.


Protomechs have much more endurance thanks to the fusion plant, but would use batteries to provide surge capacity.  So it might have a fusion plant that can support 3/5 movement, but with battery power it can get up to 6/9.  This means the Protomech can hide for a bit, then come out swinging.  When the Protmech's batteries start getting low, it hides again to recharge (literally).


However, to set this up the game system would need the following comparisons to be created:

• Power needed for a 1 ton BA to walk 1 hex
• Power needed for a 1 ton BA to run 1 hex
• Power needed for a 1 ton BA to jump 1 hex
• Power needed for single point of Battlemech damage
• Power needed for single point of Battlemech damage at twice the range

I am assuming that power needs for radio, basic scanners, computer, commands for other weapons to fire are effectively free at the scales PA operate on.  For example, assume an Elemental's Small Laser uses an internal battery, that can be recharged from the PA suit battery if wanted.  The suit battery is on 1 pt left, so it cannot really move.  However, the Small Laser still has five shots left in its own battery.  So the PA can still fire the Small Laser, since the SL is using its own capacitors rather than the suit power.

[RifleMech]

I can see IS Protomechs. I'd think they'd be kind of like Patlabors with their conventional controls. An alternative would be Ultra Light Mechs (5-9 tons) using the old rules for reducing available critical slots. Alternative power sources such as batteries, and steam would be cool too.

Bolt on weapons would be cool. We've got jump packs why not weapons too? Besides, Decision at Thunder Rift had Grayson hoping that the Shadow Hawk's backpack mounted autocannon was still attached.

I would love stats for the Headhunter Missiles.

[Daemion]

Power for a unit that uses fusion (or fuel cell) and battery power would use the existing heat chart, but with extra capacity at the bottom.  The extra capacity would reflect what the batteries can handle (similar to an Elemental's battery).  The more batteries you have, the more power you have available.  The more power you use, the more 'heat' builds up (reflecting that you don't have the power to move weapons around as fast, that you aren't ablee to move the leg myomers as quickly, aso).  Every turn, the power production of a fusion or fuel cell power system would remove some of the 'heat' from the scale, indicating that the reactor has recharged some of the batteries.  If using a Fuel Cell you would have to keep track of how many turns of power it uses up, but Fuel cell would provide more power per kilogram than a battery.

I've thought about this on occasion, too.  An interesting take, but why muck with the scale when you can just do like heatsinks, and have a value that represents the unit's recharge capacity. 
 
Maybe even go so far as to allow them to burn through a recharge to get back to full capacity, but at the expense of 'fuel points', leaving them that closer to being out of juice.  Maybe the suit, itself, would have a max draw rate.

[idea weenie]

I've thought about this on occasion, too.  An interesting take, but why muck with the scale when you can just do like heatsinks, and have a value that represents the unit's recharge capacity. 
 
Maybe even go so far as to allow them to burn through a recharge to get back to full capacity, but at the expense of 'fuel points', leaving them that closer to being out of juice.  Maybe the suit, itself, would have a max draw rate.

Thought I was comparing it to heat sinks?  Ah well, I likely didn't explain it well enough

For a unit with both fusion (or fuel cell) plant and batteries, you have X amount of power provided by the batteries, and 30 pts that are the suit reserves.  Every time you move, run, jump, or recharge energy weapons it takes power from the batteries, and from the suit reserve if the batteries are empty.  If a fusion plant is installed, then each turn it reduces the mark on the heat scale, reflecting the fusion plant recharging the suit.

So a Protomech might have 120 pts of power provided by batteries, and 30 pts in the heat scale.  However, during the fight so far the Protomech pilot has used all except 10 pts of power in the batteries (and 30 pts in the Protomech reserves).  At the start of the turn, an onboard Fuel Cell plant provides 10 pts of power.  So the unit now has 20 pts of power available in batteries, and 30 pts in the Protomech reserve.

The character sees a juicy target, and decides to get in range and fire off its energy weapons.  It jumps (using 15 power points) plus the energy weapon itself uses another 24 power points (the energy weapon was designed to use suit power).  At the end of the turn, the Protomech is treated as being at '19' on the heat scale (-20 + 15 + 24).  This '19' is not because its internal systems are at that temperature, but because the Protomech only has 11 pts of power remaining before it shuts down.

Next turn, the Protomech sees several units in range ready to kill it, not enough power to really exploit its position, so the pilot decides to be Brave Sir Robin and run away.  It first gets 10 pts of power from its Fuel Cell, then spends 15 pts to jump to safety.  It is now at '24' on the heat scale, and the pilot decides to stay back for a bit and recharge (19 - 10 + 15).

(This Protomech was designed around the idea of slow recharging but allowing for massive salvos, rather than fewer batteries and more Fuel Cell for greater endurance)


The fun idea would be designing Battlearmor so they have a limited number of anti-Mech shots, but can recharge off a friendly vehicle with recharge capability.  So the Clan Elemental might have 20 shots with its Small Laser, and the design rule would state that it also needs 20 turns of power for using its most energy expensive movement method.  In a Battletech game, it just gets a note that after 20 turns it is immobile, and to write down the turn it was recharged on.  Once that turn+20 occurs, the Elemental is effectively immobile.

(I want to keep the Battlemech-scale numbers simple on the game side, instead of trying to track how many turns the Elemental has actually moved or fired.  For the RPG side the more complex numbers can be used)

For civilian Battlarmor (i.e. the Powerloader), they might have a small Fuel Cell engine attached that trickle charges 1 pt of power per turn.  Refueling the Fuel Cell would be via pressurized gas tanks, instead of a slow battery recharge.

[Daemion]

I got that, but what I was talking about was treat the recharge rate to power the same way heat-sinks is applied to heat.  The recharge rate is 10 for the fuel cell.  But, this could be modified or fine-tuned by upping the unit's power generator.  Not quite the same as adding extra heatsinks adds to the cool-down rate, but you get the idea.  Of course, the power generator should probably lose charging capacity when it takes light damage.

The other odd thing about power generation is that there should be choices when you get low.  One of the things I appreciated about the first edition CAV rules.  When you're at full power, you don't have to worry about moving and shooting having penalties.  But, when you're low, you should be able to, say, ignore the modifier to movement or gunnery if you don't use the other.  So, you want to fire with accuracy, you ain't moving that turn.  You want to book, you ain't shooting that turn.

That's one thing that bugged me about the MW:DA heat system.

Quick question about reserve power.  If the unit shuts down due to ultimate power drain, does that turn off the cell/reactor, too?  So, if you manage to burn all your power, are you ultimately stuck?

[idea weenie]

I got that, but what I was talking about was treat the recharge rate to power the same way heat-sinks is applied to heat.  The recharge rate is 10 for the fuel cell.  But, this could be modified or fine-tuned by upping the unit's power generator.  Not quite the same as adding extra heatsinks adds to the cool-down rate, but you get the idea.  Of course, the power generator should probably lose charging capacity when it takes light damage.

The recharge rate is being applied almost exactly like Heat Sinks are (recharge is applied at the beginning rather than at the end of the turn).  The 30-point heat chart is exactly matching the Protomech's reserve power.  The batteries just represent an amount of energy that is drained before the Protomech's power reserve is used.

In that case it was a 120-capacity battery and a 10-rated Fuel Cell.  Another Protomech might be designed for more up-front combat and have 60-capacity Battery and a 20-rated Fuel Cell.  A third might be designed for ambush with less support and might have a 75-rated battery with a 5-rated Fuel cell, but include a much larger fuel supply for the Fuel Cell.  So you would have a variety of Fuel Cell options when building the Protomech, but during combat you would just keep track of the Fuel Cell's recharge rate, and how many turns of fuel the Fuel Cell had (likely more than a single battle).

There could even be a case where what would be a 10-rated Fuel Cell for a 2-ton Protomech would be listed as a 2-rated Fuel Cell for a 10-ton Protomech.  These details would be only dealt with during construction, while in combat the player only has to worry about how many points of power the Fuel Cell recharges per turn (and how many turns of fuel the Fuel Cell has, plus the number of turns of endurance per critical slot of fuel).

A Protomech using a mixed power system would have XX amount of battery capacity, YY amount of recharge rate, and 30 pts of suit reserve.

The Protomech would first use power from the battery capacity, and if exceeding the amount of power in the battery capacity, would start to consume power from the 30-pt suit reserve.  At either the start or end of the turn, the recharge rate provides additional energy, either lowering the 'heat' level, raising the energy amount stored in the battery capacity, or a mix of both.  The battery + power plant combo is designed to operate almost exactly like the current Mech heat scale (just with more capacity at the bottom).

Losing charging capacity would be treated like any other critical hit.  Hit one of the fuel storage critical slots, you lose some turns of endurance, based on how much is present in that critical.  Hit the batteries, you lose that much capacity.  Hit the Fuel Cell (or Fusion plant) directly, yep, it is gone, and all you have is what is in the batteries and the suit reserve.  Not sure if allowing multiple Fuel Cells could be a good idea (maybe make it where two 5-rated Fuel Cells take up more mass than a single 10-rated Fuel Cell).

The other odd thing about power generation is that there should be choices when you get low.  One of the things I appreciated about the first edition CAV rules.  When you're at full power, you don't have to worry about moving and shooting having penalties.  But, when you're low, you should be able to, say, ignore the modifier to movement or gunnery if you don't use the other.  So, you want to fire with accuracy, you ain't moving that turn.  You want to book, you ain't shooting that turn.

For Battletech, since the Mech is the key unit, I want to make it where smaller units are easier to work with.  So instead of making a new chart for ProtoMechs, I wanted to use the existing Heat scale and relabel it as reserve power. 

To me, ProtoMechs on a field with Battlemechs would be a secondary focus, so they should have fewer rules to work with.  The more I can imitate from Mechs, the better.  Now on a smaller scale, this option for focusing power could be done

Quick question about reserve power.  If the unit shuts down due to ultimate power drain, does that turn off the cell/reactor, too?  So, if you manage to burn all your power, are you ultimately stuck?

If you burn all your Fuel Cell fuel and battery power, I figure the only things you can still run are passive sensors, local radio, and onboard small computer.  The suit itself is stuck.  Time to find an extension cord.  The nice part is that as long as you still have at least 1 pt of power, you can move within the hex (but that movement will likely drain the last point of power).  Hope a buddy with a vehicle comes along to let you recharge off them.  Omni-units include charging ports automatically, while non-omnis will need to allocate tonnage to a recharging port.  These recharging ports allow for in-battle recharging.

Out of battle recharging is done by having someone hook up jumper cables from the vehicle to the Protomech.

A Fuel Cell would be fluffed as having enough power onboard to be able to restart if there is any fuel left.  The Fuel Cell would use a small amount of Fuel to trickle charge and keep itself going.  This amount would not be significant tactically, but could be addressed for strategic purposes (i.e. a Protomech standing guard for several hours might burn a little fuel just running its sensors, radios, computer, aso).

A Fusion plant will obviously have plenty of power and the fuel it consumes is a teaspoon per mission, if that.  Protomechs with a Fusion plant would tend to the heavier end, be 'leader' units, and have recharge attachments so the Protomechs they are with can recharge off the leader.  They might even just use large power cords and the other Protomechs have an auto-jettison in case of combat, while the leader presses the emergency retract.  Another option would be backpack fuel supplies for ProtoMechs, where they use backpack fuel first then internal fuel.

For the same mass a Protomech fusion plant would be less productive than a Battlemech fusion plant, since it has to fit inside the same torso where the pilot is stationed.  Installing a Mech reactor in a ProtoMech means either the pilot is getting shoved out of the torso or the plant is sticking out of the torso.  The first means massive penalties to G/P skills if you keep the head the same size, or expanding the head size so the pilot has enough room resulting in thinner armor protecting the pilot.  The second is known as a weak point.

[Charistoph]

I rather disagree with setting up what is, for all intents and purposes, a non-explosive ammo box for battle armor and/or protomechs to do basic actions.  Now, I could see doing it for energy weapons or jump packs for BA, PM, and even non-nuclear Combat Vehicles (in lieu of Power Amplifiers), but not for things like running around on the field.

The amount of field time the average combat in a game is far less than 5 minutes.  Any military unit which cannot be pushed to "military power" for 5 minutes of travel had better be a missile because otherwise it is completely useless.  We don't even track fuel for ICE-powered Combat Vehicles in this game.  Aero forces tend to be the exception in this dynamic.

Now, setting something like that up for campaign work is a different story.  Something like they need X amount of time to recharge or otherwise they aren't allowed to participate in the next engagement would fulfill the concept over all without tearing the paradigm down.

[Daemion]

Y'know, now that we're on the subject of cheeper units with limits, I've been pining lately for cheaper BattleMechs for filling out Militia and Mercs.

One of the items I had in mind would be an Extra Large Engine.  Not to be confused with the XL, which is both large and light, this engine is cheaper than the standard by simply taking up extra space in the torsos. 

After all, has anyone noticed that IS XL engine equipped mechs tend to be glass jawed?  Well, the Large Engine still weighs the same as the standard engine.  Each version is x amounts cheaper to apply based on number of slots go in the side torso.

I'd been thinking about this for a alternaverse set-up where Mechs would be far more common than indicated in the current BTu, but with different levels of performance filling the ranks.  Front Line units would be standard tech and up.

[idea weenie]

Y'know, now that we're on the subject of cheeper units with limits, I've been pining lately for cheaper BattleMechs for filling out Militia and Mercs.

One of the items I had in mind would be an Extra Large Engine.  Not to be confused with the XL, which is both large and light, this engine is cheaper than the standard by simply taking up extra space in the torsos. 

After all, has anyone noticed that IS XL engine equipped mechs tend to be glass jawed?  Well, the Large Engine still weighs the same as the standard engine.  Each version is x amounts cheaper to apply based on number of slots go in the side torso.

So for each slot, the Mech's current engine price might cost 10% less?  If so then one additional slot means the engine costs 90%, a second additional slot means the engine costs 81%, a third means 72.9%, aso?  6 slots total means the Mech engine will cost just over 53% of the original price.

(actual % discount will vary)

I'd been thinking about this for a alternaverse set-up where Mechs would be far more common than indicated in the current BTu, but with different levels of performance filling the ranks.  Front Line units would be standard tech and up. 

DieselMechs? Fuel Cell powered Mechs?

So you need power amplifiers, you won't get as much heat dissipation, you still have to mount heat sinks for ballistic weapons (they are Mechs), and unless you have a snorkel the DieselMech cannot go underwater.  You can also have a location on the hit chart where a critical hit goes through the exhaust pipe and gets a single engine critical hit.

Good for militia Mechs on a Periphery planet

The other idea would be where all Mechs have multiple options for engine, internal structure, cockpit, armor, and similar gear.

Engines would range from XXL Fusion plants that can go for months on a tablespoon of hydrogen, to low-grade Diesel engines burning low-quality biofuel that need refueling after half an hour of combat.  Musculature would rang from existing myomers to hydraulics.

Internal structure would range from Advanced Endo-steel that is only 3% of the Mech's tonnage, to cast iron bracing taking up 40% of the Mech's tonnage.

Cockpits would have options for roominess, fire control ability, back-seater capacity, and armor capacity.

Weapons would be any type, though any Mech without a nuclear plant will need Power Amplifiers for all non ammunition-based weapons (power amplifiers will be needed for Gauss Rifles too, since the damage comes from how much energy is applied to the projectile).

The complexity would be on the design side, so while the design would have a civilian roomy cockpit, the sheet for the Mech would just show 6 pts of armor on the head with a note that the pilot gets +1 on piloting rolls.  The tonnage needed for the Fire Control systems would be part of the design, while the crit would just be part of the cockpit.

[Daemion]

Yeah. We do have rules for all of those, already, but not with enough allowance for finer variations. 

But, while all those options would be nice, I was thinking that we're not necessarily in a Tech decline in this alterniverse, and Fusion would be the ideal for military units.

[Adastra]

Perhaps a sort of Low-Output Fusion augmented by batteries for greater peak power? After all, an IndustrialMech hardly needs the sort of power required to fire a gauss rifle or laser, merely move around and operate certain specific equipment.

Basically, a cheaper fusion engine that requires power amplifiers, fewer free heat sinks, and has a limit on the amount of stuff it can do in one turn.

Some very crude potential stats:
-Far cheaper purchase and maintenance costs, as it's effectively a much smaller fusion plant mated to batteries to supply peak power.
-Only 5 free heat sinks. Power amplifiers are required for energy and gauss weapons.
-Cannot use running movement/jump and fire weapons in the same turn.

[RifleMech]

Why not use Support Vehicle Engines? They can be lower tech and don't come with heat sinks. Although I'd wonder why you'd want a fusion engine that performs like a internal combustion engine.