Author Topic: Time for a Battletech Revamping?  (Read 38805 times)

Sartris

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #30 on: 23 October 2020, 19:19:29 »
Any resemblance between Alpha Strike and Classic Battletech is more coincidence than design. Alpha Strike is so bland, it could just as well be giant bunnies, killer clowns, or lawyers going after each other as much as giant robots.

But it plays much faster and the original rules aren’t going anywhere. Your other option is destiny.

Now I’m definitely considering a lyran clowns vs marik lawyers scenario

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BairdEC

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #31 on: 23 October 2020, 20:48:44 »
I really like the lifepath system, but the ATOW version is a lot of accounting.  Traveller and Twilight:2000 have versions that I like much better.  Traveller is also the only system I know of where it is possible to die during character generation.

ActionButler

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #32 on: 23 October 2020, 20:52:43 »
I don’t think you could die during the life paths section of 3rd edition Mechwarrior, but you could certainly end up grievously maimed.
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #33 on: 23 October 2020, 20:53:26 »
Alpha Strike still feels like Battletech. Pretty much any AS game you play feels how it would play out in CBT, and still keeps the feel of Criticals, Heat, Etc.

victor_shaw

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #34 on: 23 October 2020, 20:54:50 »
The main problem I have with AS movement is it encourages moving one inch even if you didn't plan to move.  I like their just count the distance or wind the ruler, but i prefer TW's you only get a mod based on how far you moved.

The Problem with AS (Don't get me wrong I love the game(Hex-Based) is that it is derived from BF2 so alot of the movement are way over simplified do to the difference in movement scale.

Sartris

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #35 on: 23 October 2020, 21:08:04 »
I don’t think you could die during the life paths section of 3rd edition Mechwarrior, but you could certainly end up grievously maimed.

Yeah a couple 2-3 rolls was bad news. Hilarious to everyone else at the table. But still bad news

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monbvol

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #36 on: 23 October 2020, 21:09:28 »
I don’t think you could die during the life paths section of 3rd edition Mechwarrior, but you could certainly end up grievously maimed.

Correct that there was no outright death and that one could wind up quite maimed or otherwise radically altered from their original character concept.

I remember one particular campaign where someone who is no longer in our gaming group tried to create a police officer but the event rolls came out closer to serial criminal.

Another member of our group almost always got a landed title and a planet to rule when he went through it.

It is that kind of whacky imbalance that really killed that system off.

victor_shaw

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #37 on: 23 October 2020, 21:18:29 »
I agree with many about AToW and the character creation.  I actually love the life path idea, and how it forces your hand to certain skills and traits influenced by your upbringing.  The downside is that it is an accounting nightmare.  With the points based system, you get 2 dimensional characters prone to min/maxing.

The simple fix is to redesign the Lifepaths so they either give you a Skill/Advantage/etc. or they don't like it was in 3rd.
Example: why do the career packs give you points then have you refund your character some of the points?
Just have them cost this much and have set levels to assign. Done!

AToW (outside the point buy system) likes to play at being so flexible when in fact its pretty rigged, and has a lot of useless or downright dumb point expenditures.
Example: MechWarrior Cast gives you Fit (+25), what's the point of this as Fit cost 200 points 12.5% of the cost of the Trait that will most likely be bought-off later on in character creation. If you want players to know that Fit is a trait a lot of Clanners have then just add a suggest traits line in each of the lifepaths and stop book assigning points on Skills and traits that are so far away from completing that trait as to be useless or downright silly.

Outside of Character creation the game is great, but when you have to run player through this mess it tends to turn them off to the game before they even have a chance to get into it.


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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #38 on: 23 October 2020, 21:41:41 »
One of the reasons why there are so many optional rules in TacOps, and infantry motorized/mechanized, is precisely because those situations kept coming up and players keep asking questions on "What about...", "How do I handle..." yadda yadda yadda.  You take away most/all of the options and we're right back to those questions being answered on an ad-hoc ruling basis rather than "See pages _____ in book _____".

So a quick story.

Someone walks into a chess club, and wants to learn how to play.  Great, is the response from the members.  They sit the guy down and after a while he starts pointing out things like how there are so many pieces, and different ones.  He points out how slow the game is to play, and wouldn't it be better if there were fewer types of pieces, and they didn't have all the different movement types.  After enduring a bit of this, the members ask if he would be more interested in playing checkers - faster, simpler, fewer types of pieces, all of the things he has pointed out.  "No no no!  Absolutely not!" replies the newcomer.  "If I wanted to play checkers I would be doing that.  I came here to play chess!".

The moral of this short story?  If you want to make a few changes, do so.  The Game Police will not come to take you away (away... OK, a little light on sleep, long on coffee, and Queen playing in the background...).  If you want to make a lot of changes, its no longer the game you want to play, and perhaps - just perhaps - it would be better all 'round to go looking for a different game which does suit what you want to do.  (I'm going to skip the somewhat-obvious third path: build and market your own game.  But most simply don't have the patience or desire to do so)
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Geg

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #39 on: 24 October 2020, 07:37:03 »
Alpha Strike already exists, let's stop beating the dead horse named 'I want the same thing but different!"

They want Alpha Strike with hit locations and labeled weapons.

Sartris

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #40 on: 24 October 2020, 08:08:02 »
Destiny is as close as they’re going to get

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SteelRaven

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #41 on: 24 October 2020, 08:47:01 »
You can also play BT without hexes and the optional rules, crazy but it has been done.
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Sartris

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #42 on: 24 October 2020, 08:48:15 »
 :yikes:

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Elmoth

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #43 on: 24 October 2020, 10:01:43 »
You know, AS would do well with a more streamlined approach to a few things, including movement rules. 

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #44 on: 24 October 2020, 12:35:17 »
Any resemblance between Alpha Strike and Classic Battletech is more coincidence than design. Alpha Strike is so bland, it could just as well be giant bunnies, killer clowns, or lawyers going after each other as much as giant robots.

Alpha Strike gets a lot better the more rules you throw at it.   Once you start using Formations (and the granted Special Pilot Abilities), Command Abilities, Battlefield support points, some variation in the skill level of each Mech, and one of the optional rules for variable damage then game gets a lot more interesting.  Decent properly scaled terrain also helps.

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #45 on: 25 October 2020, 00:53:04 »
I'm in agreement that Total Warfare could use Second Edition.  Obviously isn't going to happen unless the fans do it themselves.  Problem with Alpha Strike is it didn't maintain the spirit of Total Warfare.  Hit locations were gone, weapons were gone, etc. 

If I were to revamp Total Warfare, some things I would do are:

-Revamp initiative system.  Every player puts a number of colored dice in a bag, during movement someone pulls dice one at a time; your color comes up, you move a unit and place the dice down to mark modifier.  Obviously Total Warfare doesn't need a new edition to implement this, but putting it in official rules doesn't hurt.  No one that I know of likes to spend minutes figuring out how to divide their forces to be 'fair'.  This isn't some European resource management game.  Movement should be quick, and initiative can be determined on a per-unit basis instead of portion of force.
-Weapons reach out further.  Weapons deal more damage and/or armor is reduced, maybe.  Simplify some weapons, limit others.  I posted earlier that I think MGs should only be limited to infantry damage; have had some interesting discussion there.
-Revamp internal structure and components.  This one is tricky, but I think I would do away with internal structure points and just go with a block system, where 'structure' is represented as a few blocks as well, depending on what section you are talking about and how much structure would be there (so maybe 5 points of structure = 1 block). 

Take leg for example:  three block spaces for the leg actuators, a number of spaces for structure, then blocks for whatever else (heat sink, jump jet, etc).  If the opponent hits your leg when no armor is there, roll a die and see what block gets hit.  Structure is just empty damage (like a free hit), actuator can take three hits, adding +1 to PSR/walking/whatever before it is completely destroyed, etc.  I would say the leg isn't completely destroyed until all components in it are destroyed; but that could be argued.  In my mind, the actuators are as integral to the structure as the structure is to the actuators.  Everything seems to get built into each other.

That's a few examples, but in the end I would just want the destruction and carnage to increase, and gameplay to speed up, while maintaining the spirit of Battletech.  We have, likely, all of the tech that we will ever see, so what a time it would be if Catalyst could market to all the potential new players that Catalyst have created a fast paced wargame like they have never experienced before, with nice plastic models to match, and could market to the old guard that all tech and equipment has been revamped and balanced into one nice rulebook. 

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #46 on: 25 October 2020, 01:26:44 »
I'm in agreement that Total Warfare could use Second Edition.  Obviously isn't going to happen unless the fans do it themselves.  Problem with Alpha Strike is it didn't maintain the spirit of Total Warfare.  Hit locations were gone, weapons were gone, etc. 

If I were to revamp Total Warfare, some things I would do are:

-Revamp initiative system.  Every player puts a number of colored dice in a bag, during movement someone pulls dice one at a time; your color comes up, you move a unit and place the dice down to mark modifier.  Obviously Total Warfare doesn't need a new edition to implement this, but putting it in official rules doesn't hurt.  No one that I know of likes to spend minutes figuring out how to divide their forces to be 'fair'.  This isn't some European resource management game.  Movement should be quick, and initiative can be determined on a per-unit basis instead of portion of force.
-Weapons reach out further.  Weapons deal more damage and/or armor is reduced, maybe.  Simplify some weapons, limit others.  I posted earlier that I think MGs should only be limited to infantry damage; have had some interesting discussion there.
-Revamp internal structure and components.  This one is tricky, but I think I would do away with internal structure points and just go with a block system, where 'structure' is represented as a few blocks as well, depending on what section you are talking about and how much structure would be there (so maybe 5 points of structure = 1 block). 

Take leg for example:  three block spaces for the leg actuators, a number of spaces for structure, then blocks for whatever else (heat sink, jump jet, etc).  If the opponent hits your leg when no armor is there, roll a die and see what block gets hit.  Structure is just empty damage (like a free hit), actuator can take three hits, adding +1 to PSR/walking/whatever before it is completely destroyed, etc.  I would say the leg isn't completely destroyed until all components in it are destroyed; but that could be argued.  In my mind, the actuators are as integral to the structure as the structure is to the actuators.  Everything seems to get built into each other.

That's a few examples, but in the end I would just want the destruction and carnage to increase, and gameplay to speed up, while maintaining the spirit of Battletech.  We have, likely, all of the tech that we will ever see, so what a time it would be if Catalyst could market to all the potential new players that Catalyst have created a fast paced wargame like they have never experienced before, with nice plastic models to match, and could market to the old guard that all tech and equipment has been revamped and balanced into one nice rulebook. 


Initiative could use work.

Weapons reaching out further?  I can see them increasing if the hex size were reduced. That would change the stacking rules but would increase the size of the map. Without having to send players across the street.

Revamping the internal structure?  That seems overly complicated for not a lot of change. Especially if you have to figure out how thick the armor is over the entire location.

Speeding up destruction. For kicks a friend an I ignored a lot of things and after rolling to see who moved first, just moved and shot at each other until one of us won. It was fun but we ignored a lot of things. We also used Mechs that didn't generate a lot of heat. We found playing this way with high heat mechs was fun but lost some of what makes Battletech, Battletech.

I'm not sure we're done with new tech and I don't think everything would fit into one rule book. I suppose it could but it'd be a really big book. I'm not lifting it.

To get everything into one book, you'd pretty much have to start over and I'm not sure how many of the old guard would go for it. There's quite a few who don't play past certain eras and some who still haven't tried newer versions. Plus what you propose doesn't feel like BattleTech to me. More like Renegade Legion with stompy robots.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #47 on: 25 October 2020, 03:51:47 »
They just need to put in the regular laying card based initiative, each mech has either a suit (if team initiative) or number (if individual), your card comes up and you go. Though that is getting into fan rules,

Aotrs Commander

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #48 on: 25 October 2020, 08:25:31 »
I am of the opinion that dice- or card-based initatives are not good systems (nor is resolving fire simultaneously), but I also consider that you can't have a truly good, headache-inducing wargame with more than two players. (Because, to me, a good wargame should be giving you a headache in decision making - dice rolls are very much a secondary concern, you should be spending at least as long deciding what to do (because the decisions should be hard, because that's the fun) as you do actually rolling dice).)

The reason I don't like those systems is that random initiative and simultaenous fire takes away one of the most cricually important set of decisions in a game, i.e. the decision about what you are going to sacrifice, because you if you act here first, the other guy will act THERE first and something is going to get screwed. That, to me, is among the single most important parts of playing a wargame, more than the shooting, certainly more than the dice rolling (I really don't care for randomisation at all beyond the bare minimum required to task resolution generation and if you can replace it with decision making, all the better), more than the models, more than winning or losing (I don't play competation, ever) or anything else - it must present difficult tactical decisions to be made.

A wargame that doesn't have that sort of decision making, where there often is NO right answer, only a set of trade-offs, doesn't stimulate me. I don't particularly care for "challenge" in any other avenue of gaming (e.g. on computer games, where I quite happily never go above normal if you can even get me off easy and have to problem with using the optimum builds) - but TT gaming the the one and only place I demand it, when I'm playing an actual person.



Now the trouble with that is, for a lot of people in my experience, is that they really don't want that sort of game (the rules don't tell you how to win, and a bad general can't rely on good dice to make them not a bad general); some folk just want to have a more social sort of game, roll some dice and move their models (which they likely have painted to a far better standard than I do!) around, or as Full Thrust once put it, more of a six-pack-and-boldy-go and explictly not have to think that hard about it. Or they simply can't play that sort of game; if you can only play at conventions once or twice a year, you can't play enough to get a grasp of that sort of thing. (Obviously, at the moment, the vast majority if us can't pay anything at ALL, certainly in the UK.)

But even that said, I still think BT would benefit a lot more from an initiative system whereby you pick a unit, activate it, move/shoot etc, then the other guy does, until they've all gone (akin to HBS BT). It would make the game flow better, even if it did not speed it up a little bit. (How you determine who goes first could be done a number of ways, including randomisation). (While you could do everyone moves before everyone fires, I think that is better left to games where there is more or less no terrain (like starship or fighter games) where relative position is pretty much the most important thing; on the ground, terrain is the great leveller.)

Failing that, and perhaps especially with large numbers of players, using a cyclic initative system (ala D&D 3.5/PF1/4E/5E), whereby you roll at the start and from then run in sequence would be one other solution.



I would, incidently, and totally agnostically to the discussion of what to change, suggest doing what I've been doing and half-inching HBS BT's evade chevons idea; instead of trying to remember how far that mech moved (especially on a big game and seperate move/fire phases) and thus what its TN modifier is, have little tokens (I literally pinched the evade chevons) you just plonk down with your mech after movement, equal in number to the TN modifier, which should likely smooth things along as well. (Granted, if playing on a map sheet, you might have to plop them on the record sheet instead, but non-map games it makes it visible for everyone.)

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #49 on: 25 October 2020, 08:40:27 »
I would, incidently, and totally agnostically to the discussion of what to change, suggest doing what I've been doing and half-inching HBS BT's evade chevons idea; instead of trying to remember how far that mech moved (especially on a big game and seperate move/fire phases) and thus what its TN modifier is, have little tokens (I literally pinched the evade chevons) you just plonk down with your mech after movement, equal in number to the TN modifier, which should likely smooth things along as well. (Granted, if playing on a map sheet, you might have to plop them on the record sheet instead, but non-map games it makes it visible for everyone.)

The BMM has defined Movement Dice (pg13).   After each movement you plonk down a dice that tell you the type of movement (color) and the TMM (# of pips, with 6 being zero).  Ideally they are placed on the board indicating the the move is final.

Aotrs Commander

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #50 on: 25 October 2020, 09:04:29 »
The BMM has defined Movement Dice (pg13).   After each movement you plonk down a dice that tell you the type of movement (color) and the TMM (# of pips, with 6 being zero).  Ideally they are placed on the board indicating the the move is final.

That would perform the mechanical function, I guess, but it also means Putting Dice On the Table. I am a great believer - especially when using wargames table (and not a map-sheet) - that the place of dice is to be off the table unless actual rolling is done and that markers should be as unobstrusive as possible, given the effort spent in preparing a nice table and figures is ruined by obtrusive markers.



I did mine (actual test in play pending....) in a drab green.



Link

Wouldn't be too bad, I guess, if you got some suitable subdued (possibly camo-coloured) dice.

Sartris

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #51 on: 25 October 2020, 09:11:06 »
I use dice because the three dozen chessex dice blocks are cheap as dirt. Since I rarely have access to Real™️ gaming terrain, the orange jump dice don’t clash too badly with the green felt patch that’s representing woods

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #52 on: 25 October 2020, 12:52:32 »
Great for convention dioramas, I suppose.  I'm usually to busy having fun playing a game to pretty things up that much.  Kind of shows up players who don't have artistic talent or the time to make things look that great, too.  Its a game for everyone, not just those who can produce camo-specs grade material.
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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #53 on: 25 October 2020, 14:00:07 »
They just need to put in the regular laying card based initiative, each mech has either a suit (if team initiative) or number (if individual), your card comes up and you go. Though that is getting into fan rules,

I'm super curious to see what they do with the Initiative deck, I think that could be really interesting.  First, it cements the standard card initiative format Demo Agents have been using, but second, the special bonuses on losing initiative could be a very fun twist.

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #54 on: 25 October 2020, 14:24:38 »
Great for convention dioramas, I suppose.  I'm usually to busy having fun playing a game to pretty things up that much.  Kind of shows up players who don't have artistic talent or the time to make things look that great, too.  Its a game for everyone, not just those who can produce camo-specs grade material.

Tfw the table is prettier than your minis

I'm super curious to see what they do with the Initiative deck, I think that could be really interesting.  First, it cements the standard card initiative format Demo Agents have been using, but second, the special bonuses on losing initiative could be a very fun twist.

This one got my attention when the stretch goal showed up. As someone who has lost initiative double-digit turns in a row on several occasions, I am interested to see how I will be rewarded for dice incompetence

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #55 on: 25 October 2020, 14:34:41 »
I really do not understand why, when asking for some fix of an 80s game, someone jumps up and says it means to play an "easier" or simplified" game. ANd to just get away with something other.
I'm not asking to make Battletech a simpler game. Being in Battletech by more than 30 years I really like the minutiae of the game. I really like to see how the 'mech is ever more hard to pilot and to get together as the damage or heat increase. So I do not understand why, if I say the mechanized infantry is a bad concept for the game (introduced with Total Warfare) and showing oddities, the answer must be "if you don't like it play AS!".
I would like to specify that I have the original version of AS, the companion book and the new Commander's Edition and I like AS. BUT it is not the Battletech that I enjoy most.
I can play just AS with my fellow gamers (and that's frustrating) because they are more inclined with other, newer systems, like "Tanks", "Black Seas", "Wings of Glory", "Bolt Action" and such. But that does not mean I prefer AS (even if it has its very good ideas and points). Battletech is Battletech (and no, I don't like to call it "Classic Battletech").
I don't want a simpler Battletech, I would like a better Battletech. And so, please don't tell me "then go play AS".
That said, some ideas popped in this thread are good. Some more damage by the weapons would be welcome, it could speed up play. Or, to make firefights more interesting, I have seen that to use a +1 malus for the medium range and a +2 malus for the long range (instead that +2 and a very difficult +4) is not so bad. It increases the long range effectiveness of fire and promotes some fire exchange and the manouvering of the units without transforming battles in robot brawles (it can often happen). I don't know if this a really positive idea but it has its positive sides.
Another matter could be the many rolls needed for the water movement. To just make a few hexes of movement along a river could result in a long series of dice rolls, and so the relatively easy passing of a river or a little pond can become the Realm of Randmoness (yes even for a game that has yet an elevated use of dice).
The main obstacle to gain new players, in my humble recent experience, is its long running time. For some reason today time for indulging in some hobby seems shrinked, that's reflected in many modern game mechanics that predilige fastness but are not everytime a good and satisfying simulation compromise. But I've indeed noticed that many players get bored when it's time to deal with the movement, with a complex fire declaration phase and a difficult time in putting in mind the movement target modifiers. The firing movement modifiers are pretty easy to memorize: +1, +2 and +3, that's if you are walking, running or jumping. To understand at a glance how easy or difficult can be to target someone is more tricky.
I don't know, I have to say, what could be the better ways to find a solution to some of the aging problems of Battletech, but I know that Battletech can stay Battletech if here and there some polishing hands can be be given. And that does not mean to go play the oversimplified AS, but to permit to Battletech to evolve in something still very detailed but not lost in some rusty game mechanics. I think it is worth some discussion or experimenting by the people in charge.
To rethink the infantry construction rules does not mean that Battletech is a bad game, obviously, it means to think again to a part of it that can be better. Even if infantry is not the center piece of a giant robot game that's not mean it can stay even it it is not so good.
And to end this long post (sorry for that) I can say that I like the Chaos System but I would like a better detailed campaign system that has not the problems that in this moment it has. The Chaos System is really good and permits to stage good campaigns, but the Combat Operations approach is what I prefer because it gives more story and background to my units but now it is not a good set of rules in my opinion. It has some holes, it lacks details somewhere or it has too many details in others.
And please don't go with the usual "if you don't like it, change it". I know I could but I would like some official versions of the rules that are going forward.
And if I would be satisfied with just my table, and whatever changes made there, I would not be here asking for other ideas and opinions.

Sartris

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #56 on: 25 October 2020, 15:08:38 »
It%u2019s not that you’re wrong for wanting to change the game (it’s an opinion) - just understand that realistically you’re probably not getting the changes you want. The resources being spent do not point in that direction

So if you want a faster game, AS is what’s there from an official standpoint. Anything else is going to be up to you. Sorry
« Last Edit: 25 October 2020, 15:10:12 by Sartris »

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #57 on: 25 October 2020, 15:36:09 »
AS may be TOO fast of a game, though.  I've wondered how to set up a middle ground where the numbers aren't quite as high as in CBT, but not so abstract as AS, maybe on the order of how much Warjacks and Warbeasts use in WarmaHordes.  I've just never sat down to start hammering out the numbers.
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Sartris

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #58 on: 25 October 2020, 15:50:50 »
Eliminating or greatly reducing hit locations is a good start. It’s where a lot of the procedural dice rolling comes from.

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Re: Time for a Battletech Revamping?
« Reply #59 on: 25 October 2020, 15:55:53 »
AS may be TOO fast of a game, though.  I've wondered how to set up a middle ground where the numbers aren't quite as high as in CBT, but not so abstract as AS, maybe on the order of how much Warjacks and Warbeasts use in WarmaHordes.  I've just never sat down to start hammering out the numbers.

I think one of the game balance decisions has to do with optimal gameplay time. WarMachine is optimized for half-hour gameplay using a moderately sized army (2-3 Jacks per side I think?). With Mechs front and center, isn't AS optimized for Company level combat for a decent length experience? And also resolving battalion combat pretty quickly as well.
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