Author Topic: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.  (Read 6020 times)

Adastra

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A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« on: 13 November 2020, 02:57:36 »
Now, obviously Battletech is far from the hardest sci-fi out there, and there's nothing wrong with that. Mechs with the density of styrofoam and the ability to run rampant over the battlefield have never been a particularly plausible idea from a scientific standpoint, they're just cool. But what about some of the less fantastical technologies? BT is a product of its 80s origin, and some of the ideas it uses clearly draw from the state-of-the-art from the time. How well have those ideas held up?

Hovercraft in Battletech have always been a staple of combat vehicle fans. Solid terrain performance, low cost, reasonable payload, and great speed. Swarms of Savannah Masters, Drillsons, J. Edgars, you've got a lot of competitive options. Excelling in the scout and fast attack roles, a hovercraft force is a significant threat even to mechs in practiced hands, a terror in skilled ones. Yet unlike most science fiction, Battletech's hovercraft are surprisingly grounded, no pun intended. No fantastical anti-grav or magic lift systems, just good ol' fashioned blown skirts. A vision of the future, from the 80s. Yet why do we not see hovertanks and skirt-borne scouts in our world? Indeed, why has the hovercraft nearly disappeared from the public consciousness?

Hovercraft kinda suck. A bit of an exaggeration, but pretty reflective of the hovercraft's many weaknesses that have held them back from all but a few uses (mainly as landing craft, where the ability to move on water and land at high speed is invaluable). I'll elaborate, because I like to talk, and I hope the reading will be enjoyable.

Hovercraft are big. Due to using air pressure supplied by fans to suspend the craft, there are practical limits to how heavy a hovercraft can be for a given ground contact area, beyond normal limits like ground pressure. The LAVC-30, a US military transport hovercraft, weighed 30 tons and could transport about 30 tons of equipment. It was 24 meters long and 12 meters wide. In comparison, a Leopard 2 tank, somewhat heavier at around 62 tons, is only about 10 meters long (including gun overhang) and 3.75 meters wide. By comparison the hovercraft is huge, and this applies to all scales. The Savannah Master hardly seems like a good scout when you realize that it would be 2-3 times the size of a similar-weight tracked vehicle.

Hovercraft are unwieldy. Hovering above the ground means not having any contact with the ground other than occasional contact with the skirt. This means you depend on thrusters (usually ducted fans) and aerodynamic control surfaces/thrust-vectoring to move and maneuver. This mean that while hovercraft can reach high speeds, their acceleration is pretty poor when compared to most ground vehicles. That and the sideslip (represented in the rules, but a real concern) makes controlling them more like piloting an aircraft, except you're way too close to the ground for comfort. Navy LCACs (182 tons) require hundreds of meters to stop and thousands to turn at high speed.

Finally, hovercraft are unsubtle and uncomfortable. The usage of large turbine engines, giant fans, and lots of moving air means lots of noise and dust(it also consumes huge amounts of gas). Hovercraft are some of the least stealthy vehicles in existence. While you'll get to places quickly, your arrival will be preceded by a hell of a racket and a miniature dust storm. This is only exacerbated by being so large. Despite floating around on a cushion of air, the ride on even large hovercraft has been compared to jetliners in high turbulence.

So to the poor Savannah Master, despite it's great in-game statistics, if translated to reality would most likely be a big noisy target. Difficult, exhausting, even dangerous to control, you have a scout that can be seen long before it can see, and will have severe difficulty maneuvering the way it can on the tabletop. But of course, on the tabletop, it remains a terror, worthy of its reputation.

Hope this has been a fun read! Any defense for our floaty friends? Any more damning flaws?

Major Headcase

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #1 on: 13 November 2020, 15:29:55 »
A fun read.
I tend to apply the same techno-magic that gives us Battlemechs to all the tech in Battletech.
A can imagine that 1000 years of advanced tech has solved (or at least reduced the severity) many of the issues with Hover vehicles.
More powerful engines, more powerful and quieter lift systems ( Battletech has functional infantry jet packs that don't regularly murder thier users, so...), more powerful control computers for an advanced "fly by wire" drive experience. And since Battletech  has a plethora of 50 ton fully armored hovering MBTs that AREN'T 50 meters long, there must have been quite a bit of Battletech Handwaviumtmavailable  at the time of manufacturing.  ;)
Just like with mechs, I try not apply 20th century  expectations on tech that's more familiar.
Also, one thing to remember is Battletech uses the Hover Car a lot for civilian  use in the novels, and they are often described as being not that loud and easy to control on roads and high speed freeways; so the noise and control issues seem to be less of a reality in the far future??
On a side note: The super generic LVT-4 "Hovertank" is my favorite vehicle in the game to this day.  ;D I have a full Battalion of them!! (Proxies of course, since minis were never made for the vehicle.)
« Last Edit: 13 November 2020, 15:53:28 by Major Headcase »

Elmoth

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #2 on: 13 November 2020, 15:45:21 »
Defense: they look cool. And cool trump's it all as we know.
Scientifically I will not dispute any of your poi TS since I am sure you are right. But I love the idea of high speed and manoeuvrable hovercraft like Saracens of harassers too much to ignore them. As scouts not much, but as a rapid reaction force they look extremely cool. I never liked the Savannah much.

Sabelkatten

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #3 on: 13 November 2020, 19:12:51 »
Hovertanks were a pretty popular idea back in the 80's. Look at Hammer's Slammers or Traveller 2300AD. It took a while for the problems to become clear to SF writers... Nowdays you  don't see them often.

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #4 on: 13 November 2020, 21:20:34 »
GRAV TANKS! Renegade Legion and all you're problems are solved!

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #5 on: 14 November 2020, 09:51:15 »
Hovercraft was a staple of 70s-early 90s sci-fi as it was based on real world engineering but also impart on the ignorance of said engineering ( why we see less of it now outside of established universes such as the BTU) It's not any crazy than giant walking robots so it fits the setting.

Grav Sleds as mentioned by O5P_Ghost are a very cool concept in a sci-fi setting that has arti grav and anti grav. It's my #1 interest in Renegade Legion.
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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #6 on: 14 November 2020, 16:16:20 »
For the Savannah Master being a scout, I figure it as a combination of its high speed, almost infinite endurance, and enough firepower/armor to annoy a light Mech.  A fusion engine with an energy weapon means that fuel and ammo is not an issue, the only concern is pilot endurance (and getting shot).

If the terrain is good it can get to a location fairly quickly and has just enough armor to survive a hit by a light Mech.  If there is anything heavier, the Savannah Master is supposed to get out of range and call in a report.  You are basically using a five ton hovercraft to spot a Mech massing twenty-five tons (or heavier).  Overall, you have come out ahead.  If the Savannah Master pilots can lure the defending force away from whatever it is guarding and feel the risk is worth it, the hovercraft can zip in and shoot up a bunch of stuff then retreat.

It will be loud, it will be obvious, but every enemy unit it passes near has to take it semi-seriously unless the terrain is bad for hovercraft.  They can be used as harasser platforms too, going after multiple locations to scout them out, so the main force can attack the best spot.  Every location that sees these little pests coming has to get ready in case the real attack is coming in soon after.  Great way to keep an enemy force from getting proper sleep, maintenance, etc since the fast hovercraft will control the engagement time and range.

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #7 on: 15 November 2020, 01:50:33 »
Hovercraft was a staple of 70s-early 90s sci-fi as it was based on real world engineering but also impart on the ignorance of said engineering ( why we see less of it now outside of established universes such as the BTU) It's not any crazy than giant walking robots so it fits the setting.

I suspect the use of hover-tanks in BT is largely derived from the classic military science fiction Hammer's Slammers, which is also where a lot of the ideas about how mercenaries operate are drawn from.
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Major Headcase

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #8 on: 15 November 2020, 04:59:45 »
While most Btech hover vehicles use the air-filled curtain to glide on, what about this ugly beast? This one and a couple other designs I'd almost take fir a grav tank in any other setting??
The Clan "Cizin" hover-thing-tank-sort of...

Sabelkatten

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #9 on: 15 November 2020, 07:50:14 »
With a fusion engine you could use essentially jet engines to hover, removing the need for a skirt. You'd start fires everywhere and with a marginal power increase you'd be a VTOL, but it should be possible.

Ruger

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #10 on: 15 November 2020, 08:57:31 »
While most Btech hover vehicles use the air-filled curtain to glide on, what about this ugly beast? This one and a couple other designs I'd almost take fir a grav tank in any other setting??
The Clan "Cizin" hover-thing-tank-sort of...

To me, it looks a bit like it’s playing on the thrust vectoring type arrangement that the Harrier or similar aircraft use. Looks like there may be a central thrust unit just behind the neck on the bottom of the tank, and a pair of other thrust outlets angled to the sides towards the back.

Not sure how feasible this design would be, but it would still be riding on “cushions of air”.

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #11 on: 15 November 2020, 11:01:13 »
Rule of cool pervades over physics in many sci-fi settings
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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #12 on: 15 November 2020, 12:57:11 »
While most Btech hover vehicles use the air-filled curtain to glide on, what about this ugly beast? This one and a couple other designs I'd almost take fir a grav tank in any other setting??
The Clan "Cizin" hover-thing-tank-sort of...

Iirc, in the fan article about the Cizin, they mention that Age of Distruction/Dark Age changed up the way hovers looked and gave them a more sci-fi magic hover look. A lot of the newer ones look like that, the Regulator II and the upgraded Condor for example.
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Simon Landmine

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #13 on: 15 November 2020, 17:24:40 »
To me, it looks a bit like it’s playing on the thrust vectoring type arrangement that the Harrier or similar aircraft use. Looks like there may be a central thrust unit just behind the neck on the bottom of the tank, and a pair of other thrust outlets angled to the sides towards the back.
Not sure how feasible this design would be, but it would still be riding on “cushions of air”.

Vectored-thrust vehicles are a staple of cyberpunk-influenced settings - the Aerodynes of Cyberpunk 2020, or the LAVs/Thunderbirds of Shadowrun, for example, so I can imagine some artists might have gone for that kind of styling. (Aerodynes in CP2020 are capable of true flight, though, as a faster but much more fuel-hungry helicopter alternative, and LAV stands for 'Low Altitude Vehicle', capable of at least low altitude flight - while BT's hover tanks can just ignore low hedges.)

For the skirtless designs, they might also claim to be working on the 'air-curtain' approach, although as far as I know that's never managed to be as effective as an actual skirt ... yet.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #14 on: 16 November 2020, 00:39:22 »
Now, obviously Battletech is far from the hardest sci-fi out there, and there's nothing wrong with that. Mechs with the density of styrofoam and the ability to run rampant over the battlefield have never been a particularly plausible idea from a scientific standpoint, they're just cool. But what about some of the less fantastical technologies? BT is a product of its 80s origin, and some of the ideas it uses clearly draw from the state-of-the-art from the time. How well have those ideas held up?

Hovercraft in Battletech have always been a staple of combat vehicle fans. Solid terrain performance, low cost, reasonable payload, and great speed. Swarms of Savannah Masters, Drillsons, J. Edgars, you've got a lot of competitive options. Excelling in the scout and fast attack roles, a hovercraft force is a significant threat even to mechs in practiced hands, a terror in skilled ones. Yet unlike most science fiction, Battletech's hovercraft are surprisingly grounded, no pun intended. No fantastical anti-grav or magic lift systems, just good ol' fashioned blown skirts. A vision of the future, from the 80s. Yet why do we not see hovertanks and skirt-borne scouts in our world? Indeed, why has the hovercraft nearly disappeared from the public consciousness?

Hovercraft kinda suck. A bit of an exaggeration, but pretty reflective of the hovercraft's many weaknesses that have held them back from all but a few uses (mainly as landing craft, where the ability to move on water and land at high speed is invaluable). I'll elaborate, because I like to talk, and I hope the reading will be enjoyable.

Hovercraft are big. Due to using air pressure supplied by fans to suspend the craft, there are practical limits to how heavy a hovercraft can be for a given ground contact area, beyond normal limits like ground pressure. The LAVC-30, a US military transport hovercraft, weighed 30 tons and could transport about 30 tons of equipment. It was 24 meters long and 12 meters wide. In comparison, a Leopard 2 tank, somewhat heavier at around 62 tons, is only about 10 meters long (including gun overhang) and 3.75 meters wide. By comparison the hovercraft is huge, and this applies to all scales. The Savannah Master hardly seems like a good scout when you realize that it would be 2-3 times the size of a similar-weight tracked vehicle.

Hovercraft are unwieldy. Hovering above the ground means not having any contact with the ground other than occasional contact with the skirt. This means you depend on thrusters (usually ducted fans) and aerodynamic control surfaces/thrust-vectoring to move and maneuver. This mean that while hovercraft can reach high speeds, their acceleration is pretty poor when compared to most ground vehicles. That and the sideslip (represented in the rules, but a real concern) makes controlling them more like piloting an aircraft, except you're way too close to the ground for comfort. Navy LCACs (182 tons) require hundreds of meters to stop and thousands to turn at high speed.

Finally, hovercraft are unsubtle and uncomfortable. The usage of large turbine engines, giant fans, and lots of moving air means lots of noise and dust(it also consumes huge amounts of gas). Hovercraft are some of the least stealthy vehicles in existence. While you'll get to places quickly, your arrival will be preceded by a hell of a racket and a miniature dust storm. This is only exacerbated by being so large. Despite floating around on a cushion of air, the ride on even large hovercraft has been compared to jetliners in high turbulence.

So to the poor Savannah Master, despite it's great in-game statistics, if translated to reality would most likely be a big noisy target. Difficult, exhausting, even dangerous to control, you have a scout that can be seen long before it can see, and will have severe difficulty maneuvering the way it can on the tabletop. But of course, on the tabletop, it remains a terror, worthy of its reputation.

Hope this has been a fun read! Any defense for our floaty friends? Any more damning flaws?
This doesn't really seem to take the alternatives into question.  Hovercraft are loud.  Ok.  So are VTOL, tracks, and wheels.  Combat vehicles in general aren't generally very quiet.  What tank can be called subtle?  I'm not sure your size complaint accurate to BT.  We don't really have good reason to believe that a Savannah Master is and bigger than a 5 to tracked tank. Likewise, the fact that hovercraft in the 21st century are unwieldy has little bearing here, since in the fluff they're pretty clearly highly maneuverable.  All in all, I think you're relying too much on analogies to modern real world equivalents, which aren't necessarily instructive to how these things work in the "future of the 80s" that BT represents.
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Adastra

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #15 on: 16 November 2020, 03:11:03 »
This doesn't really seem to take the alternatives into question.  Hovercraft are loud.  Ok.  So are VTOL, tracks, and wheels.  Combat vehicles in general aren't generally very quiet.  What tank can be called subtle?  I'm not sure your size complaint accurate to BT.  We don't really have good reason to believe that a Savannah Master is and bigger than a 5 to tracked tank. Likewise, the fact that hovercraft in the 21st century are unwieldy has little bearing here, since in the fluff they're pretty clearly highly maneuverable.  All in all, I think you're relying too much on analogies to modern real world equivalents, which aren't necessarily instructive to how these things work in the "future of the 80s" that BT represents.

VTOLs are loud (though if they get high enough they can avoid making too much of a racket on the ground), but they can reach higher speeds with greater payload, so they work fine for most hovercraft roles that are not stealth-dependent, such as fast-attack and scout hunting.

You'd be surprised by how stealthy many vehicles can be. Some notable examples are the German Spahpanzer Luchs, which was infamously stealthy and quiet. Most modern reconnaissance vehicles are built with an eye towards reducing signatures of all kinds, including sound and dust levels. Even main battle tanks like the M1 abrams have been noted to be surprisingly hard to hear at distance. Things like band tracks are able to reduce that further. Hovercraft however, have features that specifically preclude stealth, like giant fans and pressurized air moving through restricted openings (like in the skirts and ducted fans), which will pretty much by definition produce substantial amounts of noise and debris (as well as being a large radar contact).

The size is relevant because hovercraft have practical physics considerations that limit how heavy they are for a given size. Suspending a larger craft on a smaller area requires higher air pressure, that's just physics. Higher air pressure means more air escaping through the skirt (which is required for the craft to hover), increasing dust and noise.

Unwieldiness is also somewhat of an inherent factor. By definition a hovercraft has no ground contact other than occasional skirt contact (and indeed this is borne out in canon images). They are reliant on thrust in order to perform maneuvers (or speed in the case of rudders). Even if you could make up for that with extra fan thrust, what stops you from applying the same tech to wheels or tracks? Extra torque that can be applied to a fan should work just fine for a wheel.

Sure, it's battletech, no need to get too down in the weeds with technical stuff. But I find it fun, and oftentimes you can get a more interesting result by actually looking at fictional technology critically.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #16 on: 16 November 2020, 12:34:25 »
But you’re not looking at the fictional technology.  You’re looking at real world technology and assuming the fictional stuff plays by the same rules.  Sure, LAVCs take kilometres to turn at high speed, but that’s no basis for assuming BT hovercraft are similarly cumbersome. In fact, we know they’re not, both from the fiction and the game rules.
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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #17 on: 16 November 2020, 20:30:01 »
Vectored-thrust vehicles are a staple of cyberpunk-influenced settings - the Aerodynes of Cyberpunk 2020, or the LAVs/Thunderbirds of Shadowrun, for example, so I can imagine some artists might have gone for that kind of styling. (Aerodynes in CP2020 are capable of true flight, though, as a faster but much more fuel-hungry helicopter alternative, and LAV stands for 'Low Altitude Vehicle', capable of at least low altitude flight - while BT's hover tanks can just ignore low hedges.)

The closest thing BT has to those are WiGEs, not hover vehicles.  In fact, I wonder if the whole purpose behind introducing WiGEs wasn't just to give BT a rough equivalent of those vehicle types.

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Simon Landmine

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #18 on: 16 November 2020, 21:03:50 »
The closest thing BT has to those are WiGEs, not hover vehicles.  In fact, I wonder if the whole purpose behind introducing WiGEs wasn't just to give BT a rough equivalent of those vehicle types.

Yeah, I'd thought the same. :-) And, of course, WiGEs are just cool.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #19 on: 16 November 2020, 21:26:52 »
The closest thing BT has to those are WiGEs, not hover vehicles.  In fact, I wonder if the whole purpose behind introducing WiGEs wasn't just to give BT a rough equivalent of those vehicle types.

cheers,

Gabe
To be fair, some of the hovercraft art (like the Cizin, above) doesn't seem to have a skirt, and might be better described as some sort of super-low clearance directed thrust; similar to a WiGE, but not quite.  Still a hovercraft in game terms, but in the way that a Karnov, Crane, Cavalry, and Gossamer are all VTOLs in game terms, despite having rather different motive systems.
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gyedid

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #20 on: 16 November 2020, 23:10:34 »
To be fair, some of the hovercraft art (like the Cizin, above) doesn't seem to have a skirt, and might be better described as some sort of super-low clearance directed thrust;
<snip>

Hey, you sound like you're describing a Kanga there  ;) ;D

cheers,

Gabe
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Adastra

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #21 on: 16 November 2020, 23:33:34 »
But you%u2019re not looking at the fictional technology.  You%u2019re looking at real world technology and assuming the fictional stuff plays by the same rules.  Sure, LAVCs take kilometres to turn at high speed, but that%u2019s no basis for assuming BT hovercraft are similarly cumbersome. In fact, we know they%u2019re not, both from the fiction and the game rules.

The problem is that these are physics issues, not merely tech issues. It's like ground pressure for mechs or g-force limits for human pilots, it doesn't go away with technical advancement barring outright magic.

A fan-based hovercraft producing enough thrust to accelerate/decelerate on a dime as they do on the tabletop would produce a horrible screech due to the fan tips going supersonic at best, for example. For a given amount of engine power, a hovercraft will have worse "torque" than a wheeled or tracked vehicle that has actual ground contact (in terms of the ability to change speed at a given load), because what a tank or car does with ground contact, a hovercraft must do with thrust.

Nothing wrong with game abstraction for fun, but battletech's hovercraft are pretty much along the line of pilots pulling 20 G turns. Something done away with to make a fun game. And I think going to into hovercraft's disadvantages in real life gives some insight into why for example, hovercraft don't entirely replace other scouts, even if the game mechanics don't reflect that.



« Last Edit: 17 November 2020, 04:22:17 by Adastra »

pat_hdx

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #22 on: 17 November 2020, 04:03:49 »
But you’re not looking at the fictional technology.  You’re looking at real world technology and assuming the fictional stuff plays by the same rules.  Sure, LAVCs take kilometres to turn at high speed, but that’s no basis for assuming BT hovercraft are similarly cumbersome. In fact, we know they’re not, both from the fiction and the game rules.

^This. As well as, BT Hovercraft work the way they do so that the are competative and balanced on the table top.

Adastra

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #23 on: 17 November 2020, 04:41:13 »
Here's a cool thing I found. The Griffon Hoverwork 2000TD is a modern military-use hovercraft (though civilian versions are available) that's more or less in the Savannah Master's weight range, nearly 7 tons. A very slick-looking vehicle. It's about 6 meters wide and 13 meters long. It's an interesting look at what a vehicle like the SM might be like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_Hoverwork_2000TD#/media/File:LCAC_COLD_RESPONSE.jpg



I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to poo poo on hovercraft in battletech, I just like to scrutinize these sorts of things and see how well they hold up. How much is just for fun vs how much is a look forward.
« Last Edit: 17 November 2020, 04:57:37 by Adastra »

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Re: A look into Battletech's hovercraft.
« Reply #24 on: 17 November 2020, 08:27:24 »
While most Btech hover vehicles use the air-filled curtain to glide on, what about this ugly beast? This one and a couple other designs I'd almost take fir a grav tank in any other setting??
The Clan "Cizin" hover-thing-tank-sort of...

Skirt-less hovercraft are possible. The Avrocar was one unintentionally. It was meant to be a high speed fighter, but didn't have the thrust to leave ground effect.

I have spoken.


 

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