Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST

[Sartris]

but also we add more factions if the plot creates them. as stated, this era is wildly volatile since we're only officially 18 months into it

[Adacas]

After the release of the Empire Alone book, can some factions add other Mechs/ASF/Tanks and other things?

[jasonf]

A few notes:
-The early intro date for the Vapor Eagle 6 is intentional. Blame the text as written.
-The Griffin 3N's debut in the MSC is intentional. Production was relocated to Regulan space following Wolf conquest of Keystone.
-DA missing factions: everything here is as intended.

Thanks! I have to say, though, Bander BM not producing the Bandersnatch is like Hershey's not producing the chocolate bar. #@$%! Capellans...  >:(


Also, it looks like I had notes on the Sea Fox/Sphinx issue that make it more complicated than I reported. In addition to this...

Sphinx 3 and 4: Should Sea Foxes have availability in DA era? TR3145 (NTNU): “…Clan Sea Fox still sells both.”

There is also this in TR3145: DC (p. 36, Notable Units): "Star Captain Bridget Hawker was the first Sea Fox warrior to conduct a Trial of Possession for the remains of the LAW-Avon facility."
So, one of these must be true:
A) TR3145: NTNU is in errata and Sea Foxes aren't selling anything by 3145
B) TR3145: DC is in errata and LAW-Avon is chugging alone fine
C) Neither is in errata, LAW-Avon is no more but there were enough Sphinxes in storage to warrant inclusion for Sea Foxes on the MUL.

Also also, iLCLAN ERA IS UP!  ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D
(I'll start taking a look soon...  :thumbsup:)

[GreekFire]

LAW-Avon was only partially demolished, so we're good.

[jasonf]

For ilClan errata spotting, I had some questions about timing of factions and some timing of production. The two Locust examples below might help clarify a bunch for errata reporting for me (and hopefully others).

The Locust 5M2 and 5M3 do not have any Wolf Clan availability in DA but have Wolf Empire availability in ilClan. Prior to the updates, I had assumed that the DA availability was because the Wolves switched their production lines to the Locust IIC and IIC 10 (based on RG16 fluff).

So my questions are:
1. For all units available to the various Wolf incarnations, what is the relationship between the 3 versions around in DA and ilClan? Is it Clan Wolf (3130-41), Wolf Empire (3142-51), Wolf SLDF (3151-)? Or do some of these coexist over some period (like Wolf Empire & SLDF Wolves in 3151+)?

2. Related to that, should all units with Clan Wolf availability (that keep it through 3142) also have Wolf Empire availability in the DA era? (And should those with intro dates >= 3142 only have Wolf Empire availability)?

3. For the Locust examples above, is the errata that Wolf Empire/Clan Wolf should have access to the M2 and M3 in DA, or that they should not have it in ilClan? (or some option C?)

4. I think I know the answer to this but Jade Falcon faction is unified JF's through 3151, then it is Jiyi Chistu/OZ Falcons, while SLDF JF = absorbed Falcons on Terra, aff?

5. I thought the Clan Protectorate was considered part of the FWL from 3139? If not, should it have DA era availability, too? Hopefully this isn't some spoiler for a future sourcebook... :-[

[GreekFire]

1. The Wolf Empire is, so far, being treated as a distinct entity during the ilClan era. It is classified as Clan Wolf during the Dark Age.
2. If I'm understanding correctly, no, not necessarily.
3. The Locust example was an oversight, and has been fixed.
4. That is correct, yes.
5. We've decided to treat them as a distinct entity in the ilClan era for the time being. It's entirely possible that they might get removed as a faction, that this faction might be expanded to include the Dark Age, or that things might remain as they are. I wouldn't look into it as a sign of things to come, in any case. They're simply complicated.

[jasonf]

Geez you are fast to reply, thanks!  8)

1. The Wolf Empire is, so far, being treated as a distinct entity during the ilClan era. It is classified as Clan Wolf during the Dark Age.

So, then so I have it right for reporting...
Units that were available to Clan Wolf/Empire in 3150 should be available to *both* Wolf Empire and SLDF Wolves in ilClan Era, and...
Units that were produced on Terra (and other nearby worlds?) and overtaken/retooled/salvaged by the conquerors should be available to SLDF Wolves as well, right?

[Sartris]

Definitely maybe

[GreekFire]

Units that were available to Clan Wolf/Empire in 3150 should be available to *both* Wolf Empire and SLDF Wolves in ilClan Era, and...

No, not necessarily. Could be one, could be another, could be neither.

Units that were produced on Terra (and other nearby worlds?) and overtaken/retooled/salvaged by the conquerors should be available to SLDF Wolves as well, right?

Also not necessarily. Terran (or other nearby) production might go to any of the SLDF factions, or none of them altogether.

[Nerroth]

So far as the IlClan Era Scorpion Empire is concerned:

Has there been any consideration as to which (if any) IlClan Era Clan Sea Fox BattleMech designs - such as the Hammerhead, to give one example - would have been among the "treasure trove" of blueprints and/or 'Mech samples acquired by the Scorpions in the "Sea Fox Two-Step" from Spotlight On: Hellion Keshik?

The Sea Fox force involved was Delta Aimag, Tiburon Khanate, though it's not formally stated exactly which data files and/or sample units were specifically on hand for them to hand over as isorla in this instance.

-----

And speaking of Spotlight On: Hellion Keshik:

The Awesome C is listed in that volume as part of Able Nova (Option 1) as of 3151. Should it thus be added to the IlClan Era Scorpion Empire listings?

[jasonf]

Definitely maybe

In that case, if anything on/near Terra involving the SLDF/Wolves (or anything not near Terra involving Wolf-like factions) looks weird, I'll definitely report it...
...and maybe it'll be errata.  :o  :-[

[Kharn01]

Example: Flamer Elemental BA Squad of 5

Text on the Card:

"[Flamer] (Sqd 5)
Elemental Battle Armor
Squad 4"

I think the "Squad 4" line can be deleted.

[GreekFire]

Has there been any consideration as to which (if any) IlClan Era Clan Sea Fox BattleMech designs - such as the Hammerhead, to give one example - would have been among the "treasure trove" of blueprints and/or 'Mech samples acquired by the Scorpions in the "Sea Fox Two-Step" from Spotlight On: Hellion Keshik?

It's on my radar, yeah. Certain Fox designs have already been given to the Empire, certain were already present. It's possible that the exact designs may fluctuate a bit over the course of the next few weeks.

The Awesome C is listed in that volume as part of Able Nova (Option 1) as of 3151. Should it thus be added to the IlClan Era Scorpion Empire listings?

Thanks, fixed.

[Empyrus]

Noticed the Scylla is missing availabilities post-Jihad. The Scylla 2 and Scylla 3 do have post-Jihad availabilities listed.
Is this an error or a case of "not enough data"?

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5000/scylla-standard

[GreekFire]

Avails that don't extend beyond the Jihad are code for "these are 'Mechs that are no longer used in the IS, but were produced/used in the Homeworlds when we last saw them."

There's no need to report any of them.

[Sartris]

i wanted to make a faction called FATE UNKNOWN for such things but the code doesn't let animated blood run down the letters for just that instance so it's not worth it.

[Empyrus]

Avails that don't extend beyond the Jihad are code for "these are 'Mechs that are no longer used in the IS, but were produced/used in the Homeworlds when we last saw them."

There's no need to report any of them.

Ohh, of course. Didn't realize this as this was the first one i ran into in a long while. Not to mention Scylla 2 and 3 appearing in the Inner Sphere threw me off.

i wanted to make a faction called FATE UNKNOWN for such things but the code doesn't let animated blood run down the letters for just that instance so it's not worth it.

Does MUL support animated gifs as icons?

[Sartris]

assuming they did, nckestrel would lock me in a closet immediately after implementing. the blank availability after 3080 will suffice for now

[jasonf]

Another ilClan question...

Up through the DA era, it looked like the MUL did not give mixed tech/Clan tech Omni configurations to periphery factions, even if they had access to other configurations of the same unit. Should this persist through the ilClan era, or do they finally permeate to the periphery by 3151?

Example is Owens OW-1R vs. base model (compare DA to ilClan availabilities). If Clan/Mixed tech shouldn't permeate just yet, then the periphery factions for the 1R (and perhaps other IS -nR and -nX omni configurations...haven't checked yet) are errata.

[Sartris]

BA update:

availabilities and BV/AS stats should be good to go. note that you're going to find a faction listed under the squad size they use doctrinally. please report any oddities as usual

[GreekFire]

Up through the DA era, it looked like the MUL did not give mixed tech/Clan tech Omni configurations to periphery factions, even if they had access to other configurations of the same unit. Should this persist through the ilClan era, or do they finally permeate to the periphery by 3151?

Config avails should be standardized across the board now; let me know if you see anything I've missed.

[jasonf]

Config avails should be standardized across the board now; let me know if you see anything I've missed.

Ok, I went through and it looks like there are a few TR3145 configs that slipped through the cracks...
Strider OH and OM -- add Canopus to Late-Rep, DA, ilClan eras
Blackjack OG -- add Canopus to DA, ilClan eras
Men Shen OU -- add Canopus to Early-Rep, Late-Rep, DA, and ilClan eras
Sunder OF and OG -- add Mercs to DA, ilClan eras, add RotS to DA era

Other IS Omnis all look good, though.

[Sartris]

the least entertaining game of whack-a-mole of all time

[GreekFire]

Tell me about it.
Should be fixed.

[Dragon41673]

So for the beta listings for ilClan...were the Ares & Poseidon tripods intentionally left off of Wolf's Dragoons? It is explicitly stated in Redemption Rites they captured several of them, and while I believe they were all given away to the FWL...they did a full tear down on them and built them back up, as well as pulled all the specs from them.

[GreekFire]

While it does, and while they even kept a few badly damaged examples for themselves, they were not at any point shown to be using any.

If a future product shows them using the Ares or Poseidon in any capacity, we'll make sure to update the MUL.

[jasonf]

the least entertaining game of whack-a-mole of all time

How many more variants do I have to whack to unlock the "MUL Mole Whacker" achievement?  8)

Omni's look good so far now, btw. Will keep chugging along...

[Sartris]

I’m in the process of filling about 15,000 holes for backend quality of life in data analysis so… lots  :D

[Dragon41673]

While it does, and while they even kept a few badly damaged examples for themselves, they were not at any point shown to be using any.

If a future product shows them using the Ares or Poseidon in any capacity, we'll make sure to update the MUL.

Understood, thank you sir!

[jasonf]

Challenge accepted!

Here are a few more, though most are more confirmation than errata...

Phoenix Hawk L 11K2 needs Tamarind, Marik-Stewart, and Oriente availability in DA era (all have it in Late-Rep and unit has intro < 3139)

Is it intended that the Taurians get access to the Avalanche Omni (all configs) in ilClan era? That is quite the trade route…

Crusader 9R: should Clan Wolf have availability in Dark Age? Produced on Oliver, which they control from 3146.
Same issue with Griffin 5M. (and they have access to Goliath 7C and 7R in both DA and ilClan eras.)

Should Archer 7C and 9R have such different availabilities? I presumed both were produced at the same place (Earthwerks-Terra), but perhaps the 9R is just a refit?

Should SLDF Wolves get access to Prefect 1R and 2R? Produced on Irian (FWL-controlled), though maybe this is just Terra salvage?

Should some/all of the SLDF Clans (Wolves, Jags, Falcons) have ilClan era access to the Uraeus 7R? Produced on New Earth (and SLDF Falcons have the Kheper 7R).

A related, more general question: When the SLDF Jags or Falcons have access to a unit that is being produced on or near Terra, should the SLDF Wolves have access, too?
(There are multiple IS/RotS models where it is only the Jags or Falcons who have access. Non-produced units could be chalked up to differential salvage, but figured it was worth checking on produced stuff... units at Skobel and Cosara Terran plants, and at NETC seem to be the main ones in question).