Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)

[HABeas2]

"Takes notes* Pinto and Jade Hawk.....

 :)

:) Nope but they'd still be nice to see. I don't know why but I like the Sharkticons and Alicons.  :))

I don't know why either, but okay....

Why?  ??? Syberian Improved Jump Jets don't have to be the same as IS versions.

I could, but it feels like cheating. Then again, the entire premise of the Syberian robots is a cheat. But, looking over these designs, I have to say that far too many would flop if I tried to fix their functionality legally (where did I get the impression that 1 Improved Jump Jet delivered 2 Jump MP?)

Sounds interesting.

After a while, it really wasn't, which is why I abandoned it. Well, that, and it was about the time I started actually writing for BattleTech professionally. Since then, I've been more of a proponent for faster-play systems and would likely end up creating a game system closer to Alpha Strike.

- Herb

[Wrangler]

Isn't the LAM's jump jets essentially Improved Jump Jet's for conventional 'mechs?

[HABeas2]

Isn't the LAM's jump jets essentially Improved Jump Jet's for conventional 'mechs?

Is it? I stopped paying attention to errata years ago, but the last I knew, there wasn't anything, mechanically, in the LAM construction rules that made the jets used on LAMs different from normal jets. The only thing that mattered was how many Jump MP you got in the end.

The trouble is, the IJJ still gives only 1 Jump MP apiece; it weighs twice as much and takes up two slots, but it still delivers only 1 Jump MP. IJJs can also get you jump distances up to your Mech's Run speed, so if you made an LAM with a 4/6 Walk/Run, you could get up to only 4 Jump MP with standard jets, but up to 6 Jump MP with IJJs. The thing is, mass-wise, that 6 Jump cost you the equivalent weight to *12* standard jets! Looking over my specs, I apparently presumed that each IJJ delivered 2 Jump MPs. Fixing that in the rules would basically halve all offending units' Jump MP--and, with them, their Safe Thrust rates.

But, as RifleMech says, there's no real reason I can't just make up a Syberian tech item that negates my error and provides 2 Jump MP per IJJ-equivalent weight/space.

And thus, a piece of my revised AutoMech construction rules now dives into the Sybertian Tech Base at length thusly:

Syberian Technology Base

The technology base used by the Syberian AutoMechs is roughly equal to that of the Inner Sphere in 3060. Any technology with an introduction date of 3060 or sooner is thus available for AutoMech use, unless it is specifically restricted by the rules below. (Note that even though Syberia may have been colonized prior to 2765, we’re just going to presume that either the AutoMechs’ original creators survived long enough to assimilate and produce the newer tech items of the Inner Sphere up to 3060. As they are not truly sentient, and are thus incapable of improvising or innovating outside of programmed parameters, it is nigh impossible that the factory drones themselves somehow managed to perfect technologies their human masters could not.)

Exceptions: There following key exceptions to the Syberian technology base apply to the general rules described above:

•   Improved Industrial Structure – The Syberians wanted all their AutoMechs to function equally well on Syberia itself as well as in the various hostile environments elsewhere in the Syberian system. This included those units built to industrial standards. Therefore, they developed an improved form of Industrial Structure. Available only to AutoMechs, Improved Industrial Structure (IIS) weighs the same as standard Industrial internal structure and takes up no critical space, with all the associated limitations and rules, but incorporates the environmental sealing modification by default. AutoMechs with IIS thus do not need to spend additional tonnage on environmental sealing in order to function underwater or in hazardous environments like vacuum.

•   Jump Rockets – Essentially the Syberian form of the Improved Jump Jet, the Jump Rocket system produces twice the thrust for the same weight and size as an Improved Jump Jet by firing longer bursts through their thrust nozzles—a feature only possible with engines designed for sustained thrust (such as those found on Aerofighter and WiGE units). Jump Rockets follow all the same construction and gameplay rules as an Improved Jump Jet of equal weight, but provides 2 Jump MP per Rocket, rather than 1. Because they are meant specifically for Aerofighter AutoMechs and WiGEMechs, Jump Rockets may not be used with any other unit type.

•   C3 Computers – The Syberians never developed an equivalent to the C3 Computer technologies developed in the Inner Sphere, and thus may not install C3 or Improved C3 Computers or their corresponding Slave units. However, some AutoMech-specific Design Quirks—such as Team-Coded—may offer vaguely similar capabilities (see AutoMech-Unique Design Quirks).

•   Physical Attack Weapons – All ’Mech- and vehicle-based physical combat weapons featured in TechManual and Tactical Handbook are available to the AutoMechs of Syberia, regardless of when they were introduced. For whatever reason (likely their own amusement), the creators of these machines devised the whole spectrum of fun melee weapons, even though the rest of the Inner Sphere would not see such items until the late 3050s or later.

It's a kludge, but it gets around some inconvenient rules.

- Herb

[HABeas2]

And since those rules I just posted brought it up, here are some new Design Quirks just for the AutoMechs of Syberia:

AutoMech-Unique Design Quirks: A few new Design Quirks are available to AutoMechs only, with most reflecting their unique programming and engineering. These include the following:

•   Code-Bonded: This unit is more dependent on direct orders from a superior unit, to which it has been digitally bonded. A Code-Bonded unit may not willingly operate father than 100 kilometers from its master unit (or 1,000 kilometers if the both the Code-Bonded unit and its master are airborne).

•   Team-Bonded: Units that are Team-Bonded are highly coordinated with others in their team. Team-Bonded units gain a –1 target number bonus to all Skills when operating within 10 kilometers of another active member of their designated team. If all members of the team are within 10 kilometers of a Team-Bonded unit, this bonus becomes –2. Up to six units may be Team-Bonded to each other.

•   Abnormal Conversion: This convertible unit is arranged to change forms differently from the norm. Components of a unit with this Quirk thus do not follow the same Firing Arcs and Hit Locations Table normally indicated by their form. Instead, one (or more) pairs of body locations trade places on the corresponding Firing Arc and Hit Locations tables when the AutoMech assumes its alternate form. The traded locations must be noted in the Quirk. (For example, the Tanker AutoMech swaps its right torso and its right arm locations in its Tracked mode, which makes its right arm its right side in vehicle mode, while its right torso gains the turret firing arc.)

•   Semi-Quad: This Quirk is for Bestial units whose quadruped modes aim to mimic the traits of a biped without actually being one (such as those with a more simian or saurian style). Units with this Quirk still follow the movement rules and restrictions for Quad ’Mechs while in their four-legged mode, but lose the ability to execute rearward kick attacks (the “mule-kick”), but gain the ability to execute a Punch attack with an additional +1 to-hit modifier. If this Punch attack fails, however, the bestial ’Mech must make an immediate Piloting Skill check (applying the same +1 target number modifier) to prevent falling. Note that this Quirk does not enable the AutoMech to use any arm-mounted melee weapons in the process.

Enjoy!

- Herb

[RifleMech]

Okay. So.....

I have only 7 tons to play with for Blackout's weaponry. (He's 35 tons, maxed armor, and has a 3/5/3V [5/8 in VTOL form].) To reflect his rotor when used as a weapon--which is not always the case--I actually thought I'd have some fun and opt for the industrial Combine at 2.5 tons and 4 crits. (A retractable blade is an alternative, weighs the same, and takes up one less crit, but doesn't go spinny-spinny.) The rest of his weapons are currently 3 ERMLs and a pair of RL-10s.

Thoughts?

- Herb

I think I'd go with the Combine. Either that of a small Vibrosword fluffed to have it spinning. It's .5 tons heavier though so something  else would have to give.

I don't know why either, but okay....

:)

I could, but it feels like cheating. Then again, the entire premise of the Syberian robots is a cheat. But, looking over these designs, I have to say that far too many would flop if I tried to fix their functionality legally (where did I get the impression that 1 Improved Jump Jet delivered 2 Jump MP?)

Not really. AutoMechs are a bit more advanced than QuadVees after all. They don't pay tonnage for their motive systems. So why shouldn't Improved Jump Jets be a bit improved over IS versions? I haven't looked at all of them but it does look like you've kept the Jump MP/Safe Thrust to the Mech's Running MP.

The Seekers only have 4 Improved Jump Jets for 8 Jump//Thrust points, takig 8 crits and 4 tons. I also seem to remember you capping the Jump/Thrust/Cruise MP at the Running MP when I asked about WiGE Mechs so that odd MPs couldn't be used. If I've got that right, a Mech with a Walk/Run of 6/9 using IJJ would be capped at 4 IJJ with 8 MP because 10 would exceed the Running MP. So Syberian IJJ would be an improvement but also a limitation.

But the fix below is good too.  :thumbsup:  Actually, since some TFs are supposed to be really fast this helps them. At least it helps FighterMechs. WiGEMechs still seem awfully slow.

I don't know either. Maybe, 2 crits per 2 Jump MP?

After a while, it really wasn't, which is why I abandoned it. Well, that, and it was about the time I started actually writing for BattleTech professionally. Since then, I've been more of a proponent for faster-play systems and would likely end up creating a game system closer to Alpha Strike.

- Herb

It would be a pain trying to figure out which mech gets what hit chart. Especially since a lot depends on cockpit location.

I can understand wanting faster game play but I haven't been able to get into Alpha Strike. I've wondered about playing with how heat is handled to cut that part out but never got the details fully workout out.


I like the fixes and the new quirks. I really like the Abnormal Conversion Quirk. I was wondering how to make TFs/GBs with motive systems in their torsos when the rules put them in the arms and legs.


Couple silly questions that popped into my head. Can JJs be mounted in the Arms for a JJ Punch?
Are Mechanical Jump Boosters available to Non-Converting AutoMechs? Either the TacHandbook or the TacOps versions?
Partial Wings?
Would the Humans of Syberia have had AutoMechs with a cockpit system once upon a time? Like a Command Console or Dual Cockpit to take over incase the Drones had a problem during their development? Something that would have fallen into disuse once the Drones were perfected and gone extinct along with the Humans?
Since some items can only be used in a single mode, how firm is the rule prohibiting items that can't be used by BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs, and AerospaceFighters and the rule prohibiting items with crits in more than one location?
I was just wondering about putting a Satellite Imager or Look Down Radar in a FighterMech that's only usable in FighterMode or putting Chameleon Light Polarization Shield a anAutoMech that's only usable in mech mode.

[RifleMech]

Not sure if this goes here but I was thinking about Hound, if Recon Cameras are .5 tons and Searchlights are .5 tons, how heavy would Projectors and Holoprojectors be?

[HABeas2]

I think I'd go with the Combine. Either that of a small Vibrosword fluffed to have it spinning. It's .5 tons heavier though so something  else would have to give.

Yeah, the Combine being used to represent a spinning rotor weapon would be fluffed that way. But the alternative is not giving him a physical combat weapon at all and using that tonnage to give him proper SRMs. Blackout doesn't ALWAYS use the rotor, after all.

Not really. AutoMechs are a bit more advanced than QuadVees after all. They don't pay tonnage for their motive systems. So why shouldn't Improved Jump Jets be a bit improved over IS versions? I haven't looked at all of them but it does look like you've kept the Jump MP/Safe Thrust to the Mech's Running MP.

Well, the backstory is that the Syberians managed to develop a convincing fake with their AIs, but one that was good enough to automate pretty much everything that moves (and more than a few that don't), without delving into the robotics rules as they were in IO. As for the motive system weights, bear in mind that AutoMechs with vehicular modes pay 15% for conversion equipment. That would include the wheels and tracks and such as well...of course, that too is inferior to the Standard LAM/QuadVee systems, which only run 10%, so... My only problem is that I'm basically patching up my own mistake here with the jump jets by changing the rules for the improved jets. Either way, I did it, so...

The Seekers only have 4 Improved Jump Jets for 8 Jump//Thrust points, takig 8 crits and 4 tons. I also seem to remember you capping the Jump/Thrust/Cruise MP at the Running MP when I asked about WiGE Mechs so that odd MPs couldn't be used. If I've got that right, a Mech with a Walk/Run of 6/9 using IJJ would be capped at 4 IJJ with 8 MP because 10 would exceed the Running MP. So Syberian IJJ would be an improvement but also a limitation.

Ahyup. My change merely makes each Improved Jump Jet (now called a Jump Rocket) capable of delivering 2 MPs per jet. They otherwise work like Improved Jets in that they weigh twice as much as standard jets, take up 2 slots each, generate double heat when used, and can be used to provide up to the unit's Running MP in Jumping MP. As IJJs work under the rules, you need 4 IJJs to get 4 Jump MPs; in my change for Jump Rockets, you would get 8 Jump MPs from 4 Jump Rockets.

But the fix below is good too.  :thumbsup:  Actually, since some TFs are supposed to be really fast this helps them. At least it helps FighterMechs. WiGEMechs still seem awfully slow.

I've allowed the WiGEMechs to use Jump Rockets as well, but truth be told, I can't think of a single Transformer that would become a WiGE. And so it's unlikely the Syberians have any at all.

It would be a pain trying to figure out which mech gets what hit chart. Especially since a lot depends on cockpit location.

Right. And my rules allowed designers to put the cockpit in any torso or head location. It got messy.

I can understand wanting faster game play but I haven't been able to get into Alpha Strike. I've wondered about playing with how heat is handled to cut that part out but never got the details fully workout out.

Weird that your idea of a fix for Alpha Strike is to take out a core mechanic of the base game.

I like the fixes and the new quirks. I really like the Abnormal Conversion Quirk. I was wondering how to make TFs/GBs with motive systems in their torsos when the rules put them in the arms and legs.

For the most part, I'm making my AutoMechs with the standard rules, regardless of part locations, but the Warpath conversion was an extreme departure that demanded a special variance.

Couple silly questions that popped into my head. Can JJs be mounted in the Arms for a JJ Punch?

Nope. That's too silly for me.

Are Mechanical Jump Boosters available to Non-Converting AutoMechs? Either the TacHandbook or the TacOps versions?

Yes. They came into use in 3060.

Partial Wings?

For Battle Armor, yes. But not for 'Mechs.

Would the Humans of Syberia have had AutoMechs with a cockpit system once upon a time? Like a Command Console or Dual Cockpit to take over incase the Drones had a problem during their development? Something that would have fallen into disuse once the Drones were perfected and gone extinct along with the Humans?

It's unknown. The humans of Syberia are long gone, and no examples of such tech appear to have survived to present day.

Since some items can only be used in a single mode, how firm is the rule prohibiting items that can't be used by BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs, and AerospaceFighters and the rule prohibiting items with crits in more than one location?

The rule there is that, unless specifically noted otherwise (typically for Aerefighter AutoMechs), industrial items that are allowed on Mechs, or which are allowed in the Mech's alternate mode, can be mounted. Since the convertible AutoMech's various hit locations assume their respective vehicle's hit locations, the item would need to conform to its legal hit locations. IOW, if you wanted to have a bulldozer in vehicle mode, you could only mount it in a front side hit location, so the Mech--which normally cannot mount a bulldozer blade--would have to install the blade in a location that becomes the vehicle's front side.

And the ban on multi-location items other than the unit's own conversion equipment is absolute.

I was just wondering about putting a Satellite Imager or Look Down Radar in a FighterMech that's only usable in FighterMode or putting Chameleon Light Polarization Shield a anAutoMech that's only usable in mech mode.

I have at least one unit with a satellite imager that can only be used in its flight mode. It's intended function is that of an orbiter unit. So that's okay. But the Chameleon LPS is out, sorry.

Not sure if this goes here but I was thinking about Hound, if Recon Cameras are .5 tons and Searchlights are .5 tons, how heavy would Projectors and Holoprojectors be?

Guess it depends on what you're holo-projecting. AToW has weights for holo-projectors from 2kg for a "holomap" to 2 tons for a "holotank."

- Herb

[RifleMech]

Yeah, the Combine being used to represent a spinning rotor weapon would be fluffed that way. But the alternative is not giving him a physical combat weapon at all and using that tonnage to give him proper SRMs. Blackout doesn't ALWAYS use the rotor, after all.

Sounds cool. :)

Well, the backstory is that the Syberians managed to develop a convincing fake with their AIs, but one that was good enough to automate pretty much everything that moves (and more than a few that don't), without delving into the robotics rules as they were in IO. As for the motive system weights, bear in mind that AutoMechs with vehicular modes pay 15% for conversion equipment. That would include the wheels and tracks and such as well...of course, that too is inferior to the Standard LAM/QuadVee systems, which only run 10%, so... My only problem is that I'm basically patching up my own mistake here with the jump jets by changing the rules for the improved jets. Either way, I did it, so...

Don't QuadVees pay 10% for their conversion systems and 10%-15% for their wheeled or tracked motive systems?  ???

So it's fixed :)

Ahyup. My change merely makes each Improved Jump Jet (now called a Jump Rocket) capable of delivering 2 MPs per jet. They otherwise work like Improved Jets in that they weigh twice as much as standard jets, take up 2 slots each, generate double heat when used, and can be used to provide up to the unit's Running MP in Jumping MP. As IJJs work under the rules, you need 4 IJJs to get 4 Jump MPs; in my change for Jump Rockets, you would get 8 Jump MPs from 4 Jump Rockets.

Cool. :thumbsup:

I've allowed the WiGEMechs to use Jump Rockets as well, but truth be told, I can't think of a single Transformer that would become a WiGE. And so it's unlikely the Syberians have any at all.

They're probably aren't any Transformers that became WiGEs. WiGEs aren't that know of. Most probably get confused as Hovers or Airplanes. There's even a few that can fly like Airplanes so I'm not sure what they're really classified as. I could see Brainstorm as one of those though going by the newer toy being a redeco of Blurr. 

Right. And my rules allowed designers to put the cockpit in any torso or head location. It got messy.

I don't have a problem with putting the cockpit in the head or any torso location. I can see it getting messy though not so much because of the cockpit but where the head is located.

Weird that your idea of a fix for Alpha Strike is to take out a core mechanic of the base game.

Its not so much a fix for Alpha Strike but Battletech and it wouldn't take it out completely. It's more a Mech that runs hot is always hot, neutral is always neutral, and cold is always cold with disadvantages or advantages always applied. That way there's no adding up heat generated and looking at the heat scale. But I never really sat down to completely figure it out. It's more an idea that popped into my head. 

For the most part, I'm making my AutoMechs with the standard rules, regardless of part locations, but the Warpath conversion was an extreme departure that demanded a special variance.

That's cool. I like that there's extreme departures though.  :thumbsup:

Nope. That's too silly for me.

Don't know why. It'd just be a mega flamer. Rocket Fists that return would be silly.  :D

Yes. They came into use in 3060.

For Battle Armor, yes. But not for 'Mechs.

Cool and cool.  :thumbsup:

It's unknown. The humans of Syberia are long gone, and no examples of such tech appear to have survived to present day.

That's cool.  :)

The rule there is that, unless specifically noted otherwise (typically for Aerefighter AutoMechs), industrial items that are allowed on Mechs, or which are allowed in the Mech's alternate mode, can be mounted. Since the convertible AutoMech's various hit locations assume their respective vehicle's hit locations, the item would need to conform to its legal hit locations. IOW, if you wanted to have a bulldozer in vehicle mode, you could only mount it in a front side hit location, so the Mech--which normally cannot mount a bulldozer blade--would have to install the blade in a location that becomes the vehicle's front side.

And the ban on multi-location items other than the unit's own conversion equipment is absolute.

Very cool.  :thumbsup:

I have at least one unit with a satellite imager that can only be used in its flight mode. It's intended function is that of an orbiter unit. So that's okay. But the Chameleon LPS is out, sorry.

Very cool.  :thumbsup:  Aw. Poor Mirage. Can't turn invisible.  :thumbsup:

Guess it depends on what you're holo-projecting. AToW has weights for holo-projectors from 2kg for a "holomap" to 2 tons for a "holotank."

- Herb

I was thinking projecting other units, building or fake terrain as visual Ghost Targets. ECM and Com Equipment can generate sensor ghosts. What about making a visual one for cameras or the eyeball? 

[HABeas2]

Don't QuadVees pay 10% for their conversion systems and 10%-15% for their wheeled or tracked motive systems?  ???

*checks* Hah! Shows how long it's been for me that I forgot the rules *I* wrote. Of course, one could argue that this was done to make them about equal in spent tonnage to LAMs, which need to buy their jump jets. Or it could be argued that it was an indication of their prototypical nature. *shrug* Either way; one more indication of how our Syberian AutoMechs are just different.

They're probably aren't any Transformers that became WiGEs. WiGEs aren't that know of. Most probably get confused as Hovers or Airplanes. There's even a few that can fly like Airplanes so I'm not sure what they're really classified as. I could see Brainstorm as one of those though going by the newer toy being a redeco of Blurr. 

You *really* want Brainstorm to be something unique there, don't you?

I don't have a problem with putting the cockpit in the head or any torso location. I can see it getting messy though not so much because of the cockpit but where the head is located.

Well, again, the system I was working on was ultimately abandoned. But, TBH, it was also made complex to cover the fact that I was going to be using it to make Mech types created by a host of alien races, including quite a few who didn't conform to standard humanoid body plans.

That's cool. I like that there's extreme departures though.  :thumbsup:

Of course. It adds a level of uniqueness. But it's also a Quirk that can be abused with overuse, so I intend to use it VERY sparingly. Otherwise it's that old case of "when everyone's special, then no one is."

Don't know why. It'd just be a mega flamer. Rocket Fists that return would be silly.  :D

Rocket punches generally include the mass of the fist being shot at someone. Hand actuators may be one of the most sophisticated bits of tech on a BattleMech after the fusion engine and DI Computers; using them like warheads is just throwing resources away, especially when you can accomplish much the same with a missile launcher.

Very cool.  :thumbsup:  Aw. Poor Mirage. Can't turn invisible.  :thumbsup:

Yeah, I know. But, alas, that's a core part of convertible Mech design. Mirage--err, Sensor Ghost--thus had to make do with an ECM. (Remember, though; AutoMechs rely primarily on their sensors, not simple video. ECM is very much an invisibility cloak to them on some scans.)

I was thinking projecting other units, building or fake terrain as visual Ghost Targets. ECM and Com Equipment can generate sensor ghosts. What about making a visual one for cameras or the eyeball?

Fake visuals would be doable, I suppose, but at larger scales, you're talking larger gear, so I would probably represent those as 2-ton holoprojectors, if I were to use them. But again, see my statement above about how AutoMechs are primarily reliant on their sensor suites to know what's real and what's not. Mere visual tricks may not fool them.

- Herb

[glitterboy2098]

looking it up.. Brainstorm doesn't look much like a WIGE. too little wing surface. his profile looks like a BT Stuka or maybe a Visigoth.. long narrow, with canards and small aft mount wings.

for a WiGE you need lots of wing surface.

[HABeas2]

And there! Aside from 12 large units, including 2 Mobile Structures, a large aircraft carrier, and 9 DropShips, I have finished statting out just under 250 AutoMechs of varying classes, sources, and alternate modes.

I thank everyone who contributed ideas and input!

Maybe I'll get back to painting my kitchen now...

- Herb

[I am Belch II]

Do you have the stats for the Auto Vees like Ferro-Vee and others??

[HABeas2]

Yup.

- Herb

[I am Belch II]

Yup.

- Herb

Could you post to this happy place of Expanded Universe.

[HABeas2]

Sure.

Meet, the VeeMech!

VeeMech (Wheeled AutoMech)

Summary

As has now been established with the Hounder, Jack, Sounder, and Streaker-class AutoMechs, the range of units we originally assessed to be part of the VeeMech series is truly epic. With so many rooted in the engineering of classic BattleMechs—often to the point that their modern resemblance is uncanny—and with so many sharing vehicle mode similarities to boot, one can hardly fault our initial impressions. A more careful and extensive study has, of course, cleared up most of the confusion, but not before we gained a whole new appreciation for the extra layers of misdirection built into these AutoMechs by their long-lost creators.

Of the heavyweights in what we’re now calling “the greater VeeMech category,” the AutoMech we have formally bestowed the name to boasts the heaviest armor and the largest payload capacity… [Text incomplete]

Code: [Select]

Type: VeeMech
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 60

Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 6
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 9
Engine: 180 7
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 4
Wheeled Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 200 12.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 25
Center Torso (rear) 14
R/L Torso 14 20
R/L Torso (rear) 8
R/L Arms 10 20
R/L Legs 14 28

Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Gear RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
3 Double Heat Sinks RT/2LT 9 0

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration A
Mace RA 6 6
Ultra AC/5 RT 5 9
Ammo (UAC/5) 20 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Medium Shield LA 5 4*

Common Configuration B
ER PPC RA 3 7
Fluid Gun RA 2 2
Streak SRM-4 RT 1 3
Ammo (Streak SRM 4) 25 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
Ammo (Fluid) 60 LT 3 3
CASE LT 1 0.5
Fluid Gun LA 2 2

Maintainer Configuration
Large Laser RA 2 5
Spot Welder RA 1 2
TAG RT 1 1
Guardian ECM Suite RT 2 1.5
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
Cargo (5 tons) LT 5 5
Salvage Arm LA 2 3
Rivet Gun LA 1 0.5
Ammo (Rivet Gun) 300 LA 1 1

Striker Configuration
LB 10-X AC RA 6 11
Ammo (LB 10-X) 20 RA 2 2
Streak SRM 4 RT 1 3
Ammo (Streak SRM 4) 25 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Streak SRM 4 LT 1 3

Notes: No turret in Vehicle Mode; Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion). Battle Fists, Improved Communications, Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand; Exception: Maintainer Configuration), Protected Actuators, Rugged (2), Trailer Hitch (Vehicle Mode Only);* Medium Shield reduces this unit’s Walk/Cruise MPs by 1.
Credit: Giovanni Blasini, for the Hounder chassis design upon which this is based

Notable VeeMechs:
VeeMech Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Aider-Vee-P Maintainer DoctorMech Reg (5/3) Technician – ’Mech Wolverine/MASH Vehicle*
Brawny Common (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Wolverine/Striker
Ferro-Vee Common (B) ArtilleryMech Elt (0/0) Infantry, Officer Wolverine/MASH Vehicle*
Wrenchit Maintainer DoctorMech Vet (2/1) Tech–’Mech, Officer Wolverine/MASH Vehicle*
Vee-Picker Striker SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Wolverine/Light SRM
Vee-Back Common (A) ReconMech Reg (4/3) Scout Wolverine/Striker
Bulk-Vee Common (A) ArtilleryMech Reg (5/4) Infantry Wolverine/Striker

*Shortened vehicle form

Enjoy!

- Herb

[Daryk]

I'm more interested to know if his "kitchen" will be seeing time on the table top now...  :D

[HABeas2]

I'm more interested to know if his "kitchen" will be seeing time on the table top now...  :D

...Whose? Mine? I'm honestly been remodeling my kitchen a little. New floor. New trim. Refreshing the paint... But I ran out of steam just as I was starting to paint the walls.

- Herb

[I am Belch II]

Thank you very much Herb.

[Daryk]

...Whose? Mine? I'm honestly been remodeling my kitchen a little. New floor. New trim. Refreshing the paint... But I ran out of steam just as I was starting to paint the walls.

- Herb

Of course yours, good sir!  What lies beneath that veneer you're working on... perhaps a transforming robot?  :D

[Wrangler]

I have doubts I'd mention this but I'll throw this out.  Headmasters.

Only that I don't think they'd be needed.  Syberian wise I'd think they be excellent to getting into narrow spaces, but these are essentially drones and not main brains of the body running around.  Exploring human ruins essentially or sneaking into enemy facilities.

[HABeas2]

I have doubts I'd mention this but I'll throw this out.  Headmasters.

Only that I don't think they'd be needed.  Syberian wise I'd think they be excellent to getting into narrow spaces, but these are essentially drones and not main brains of the body running around.  Exploring human ruins essentially or sneaking into enemy facilities.

The way I'd approach them, there are no Headmasters, Targetmasters, or Powermasters as such, nor are there 3+-Changers, or Combiners. For me, that would just push things too far from what ultimately is a BattleTech-rooted re-imagining of the Transformers property here. And so, here is how I'd delve/have delved into these concepts:

Cassette Minions (a-la Soundwave's and Blaster's little friends): Each of this is a "Code-Bonded" robotic unit of generally 3 tons or less in mass. These would be built as Support Vehicles or Battle Armor units, and they do not transform.

Headmasters, Targetmasters, and Powermasters: These could all be treated as Cassette Minions, but exclusively built as robotic battlesuits. They can't transform, and definitely do not have to connect to their master unit, but they could be "Team-Bonded." "Team-Bonded" units can operate just fine independently, and do not need to keep to a maximum radius from each other; instead, they get bonuses when operating within 5-10 km of each other.

3+ Changers: Depending on the modes their original inspirations transform into, Triple-Plus Changers are basically broken up into their component units. For medium-sized units, the changer can be presented as a convertible AutoMech. For large-sized units, the unit is a separate, non-transforming unit. The various changers MAY be Team-Bonded to each other, but the bottom line is, the rules can only handle Mech-to-Non-Mech transformations at the same scale, in a strictly bimodal sense. (Examples of how this works: Astrotrain's expy on Syberia is known as Star Train, and has two units associated with him: a Mech-to-Wheeled conversion that covers his robot and train modes, and a second unit that is an automated DropShip, representing his shuttle form, which was canonically large enough to hold fellow AutoMechs. Blitzwing's translation, meanwhile, resulted in two convertible AutoMechs, with one going from Mech to Tracked vehicle, and the other going Mech to Fighter.)

Combiners: These are "Team-Bonded" units. Up to 6 can be assigned to a Team. They gain bonuses when operating in close proximity, with an extra bonus if ALL are within range. But they do not physically unite. They suffer no penalties if separated beyond their bonded range; they simply lose any bonuses.

Pretenders: Nope! The closest to technorganics we're going are the bestials, which are just exotically decorated Mechs.

MiniCons: See Cassette Minions/Headmasters/Targetmasters/Powermasters. And like those, they can't transform.

- Herb

[RifleMech]

*checks* Hah! Shows how long it's been for me that I forgot the rules *I* wrote. Of course, one could argue that this was done to make them about equal in spent tonnage to LAMs, which need to buy their jump jets. Or it could be argued that it was an indication of their prototypical nature. *shrug* Either way; one more indication of how our Syberian AutoMechs are just different.

 ;D   I like different.  :thumbsup:

You *really* want Brainstorm to be something unique there, don't you?

Maybe the newer one since is shares so much in common with others. I'd make the G1 Brainstorm a FighterMech.

Well, again, the system I was working on was ultimately abandoned. But, TBH, it was also made complex to cover the fact that I was going to be using it to make Mech types created by a host of alien races, including quite a few who didn't conform to standard humanoid body plans.

Oooh. Very interesting. I'd love to hear more.  :thumbsup:

Of course. It adds a level of uniqueness. But it's also a Quirk that can be abused with overuse, so I intend to use it VERY sparingly. Otherwise it's that old case of "when everyone's special, then no one is."

Yeah, I can see that.  :(

Rocket punches generally include the mass of the fist being shot at someone. Hand actuators may be one of the most sophisticated bits of tech on a BattleMech after the fusion engine and DI Computers; using them like warheads is just throwing resources away, especially when you can accomplish much the same with a missile launcher.

Plus hand actuators don't have any weight so how would one determine how much damage they do? Then there's tethered hands that get reeled back in vs completely flying hands that return on their own.

Yeah, I know. But, alas, that's a core part of convertible Mech design. Mirage--err, Sensor Ghost--thus had to make do with an ECM. (Remember, though; AutoMechs rely primarily on their sensors, not simple video. ECM is very much an invisibility cloak to them on some scans.)

That's cool. Plus a Mirage with those systems could be a non-converting AutoMech.

Fake visuals would be doable, I suppose, but at larger scales, you're talking larger gear, so I would probably represent those as 2-ton holoprojectors, if I were to use them. But again, see my statement above about how AutoMechs are primarily reliant on their sensor suites to know what's real and what's not. Mere visual tricks may not fool them.

- Herb

That's cool. I was thinking, in part, that AutoMechs would see ECM was a trick if they switched to visuals or had ECCM going, so this would be a way to completely trick them. Or at least make them question themselves. I was also thinking about using noncombat tech for combat. Humans use visuals more so seeing something that isn't there would be as bad as not seeing something that is, or making something look like something else.

And there! Aside from 12 large units, including 2 Mobile Structures, a large aircraft carrier, and 9 DropShips, I have finished statting out just under 250 AutoMechs of varying classes, sources, and alternate modes.

I thank everyone who contributed ideas and input!

Maybe I'll get back to painting my kitchen now...

- Herb

What color are you painting it?

I'd rather be painting and remodeling anything than dealing with the problems I've got right now. Even doing this :bang: would be more fun but I'd probably break the wall and I've got enough headaches and stress already.  :'(

Sure.

Meet, the VeeMech!

Cool!  :thumbsup:

The way I'd approach them, there are no Headmasters, Targetmasters, or Powermasters as such, nor are there 3+-Changers, or Combiners. For me, that would just push things too far from what ultimately is a BattleTech-rooted re-imagining of the Transformers property here. And so, here is how I'd delve/have delved into these concepts:

After thinking about it, I can see tiny AutoMechs taking advantage of vehicle forms. These would be like Wheelie. Tiny drone, tiny vehicle. I can't really see this working for Cassettes, Headmasters, or Powermasters though. Their alt-form would be an emplacement?
I also think most MiniCons would probably work better as full sized AutoMechs but it'd depend on the drone. I don't think there'd be any "special powers" granted to the bigger drone, outside of being in the bubble of whatever equipment/weapons the little drone is carrying.

TargetMasters I can see as a way to have handheld guns without the extra weight of heat sinks. The only issues are if you can build a 1-3 ton GunMech, why not a 20 ton GunMech? and how would GunMechs weighing 4-9 tons be built? Protos aren't available. So, I'm not sure about it.

I think bonding, like a C3 system, works better than physically combining. Doesn't mean a big Drone couldn't be made to look like they had been made up of smaller ones though.

3+ so each alt mode would have a different DroneMech to go with it? That or a really heavy conversion system?

Pretenders; I'm glad they're not included. At least the "shells" aren't. They don't really fit with BT. Plus, they'd have to be limited to small BA Drones (PA/ES) if they wanted to pass for Humans.  I'm going to guess that even if they did exist at one time, they've gone extinct now along with the Humans they were pretending to be.

[RifleMech]

looking it up.. Brainstorm doesn't look much like a WIGE. too little wing surface. his profile looks like a BT Stuka or maybe a Visigoth.. long narrow, with canards and small aft mount wings.

for a WiGE you need lots of wing surface.

I don't know. Most of the WiGEs I've seen look like they have less wing than airplanes.

[HABeas2]

Maybe the newer one since is shares so much in common with others. I'd make the G1 Brainstorm a FighterMech.

No doubt. Glitterboy's suggestion of the Stuka for the alt mode was a perfect choice, I think.

...*sigh* So, I'm designing more, huh?

That's cool. Plus a Mirage with those systems could be a non-converting AutoMech.

If you prioritized those features over transformation, yeah, we could make a non-transforming Sensor Ghost.

That's cool. I was thinking, in part, that AutoMechs would see ECM was a trick if they switched to visuals or had ECCM going, so this would be a way to completely trick them. Or at least make them question themselves. I was also thinking about using noncombat tech for combat. Humans use visuals more so seeing something that isn't there would be as bad as not seeing something that is, or making something look like something else.

To be honest, this veers toward the fun bit of how sensors in BT are so comprehensive that there really is no such thing as an invisibility field for Mechs short of the standing still while using the Chameleon/Null-Sig System combo (or standing still with an active Void-Sig System). Magscan and radar are blocked by ECM, IR is blocked by stealth armors. And visuals are fooled by camouflage systems and mimetics...but nothing blots out the seismics of a moving BattleMech. Heck, visual camos really just produce a stealth modifier, as they're more or less like the Predator's cloaking field, which still produces a rippling and lensing effect. (This is why the Void-Sig is easier to target for conventional infantry than for any other unit types.)

...I have no idea where I was going with this, really.

What color are you painting it?

Mostly a shade of blue so light that it looks almost white, with white baseboards and white ceiling. The flooring is a laminate designed to resemble bleached wood.

I'd rather be painting and remodeling anything than dealing with the problems I've got right now. Even doing this :bang: would be more fun but I'd probably break the wall and I've got enough headaches and stress already.  :'(

Sorry to hear that, bud. Hope it's nothing too serious and that things get better for you over there.

After thinking about it, I can see tiny AutoMechs taking advantage of vehicle forms. These would be like Wheelie. Tiny drone, tiny vehicle. I can't really see this working for Cassettes, Headmasters, or Powermasters though. Their alt-form would be an emplacement?

In the case of our Syberians, they couldn't develop a practical conversion system that works on anything smaller than a BattleMech. Since every one of the Cassettes and *-master units is 5 tons or less, I translated them to their most useful form, which also happens to be the one that can move on its own.

I also think most MiniCons would probably work better as full sized AutoMechs but it'd depend on the drone. I don't think there'd be any "special powers" granted to the bigger drone, outside of being in the bubble of whatever equipment/weapons the little drone is carrying.

Historically, most Minicons were depicted as being at or just over human-size, so I'd stick with the automated battle armor our IE friends are now calling "MiniMechs".

TargetMasters I can see as a way to have handheld guns without the extra weight of heat sinks. The only issues are if you can build a 1-3 ton GunMech, why not a 20 ton GunMech? and how would GunMechs weighing 4-9 tons be built? Protos aren't available. So, I'm not sure about it.

If I were to introduce handheld weapons into Syberia's mechanoid eco-system, I'd leave them "brainless." But it COULD be fun if one of the battle armor-based "Target Masters" could operate them as up-scaled towed guns.

I think bonding, like a C3 system, works better than physically combining. Doesn't mean a big Drone couldn't be made to look like they had been made up of smaller ones though.

Sure, it can LOOK like it, but mechanically, it'd be one unit in each form.

3+ so each alt mode would have a different DroneMech to go with it? That or a really heavy conversion system?

It depends on the unit, but generally, a triple-plus changer on Syberia would translate to two-plus AutoMechs, each representing a different alt mode, with the transformable ones having variations on the same robot mode. (And I likely wouldn't even do a bunch of the more ridiculous modes, because I found too many just...sucked.)

Pretenders; I'm glad they're not included. At least the "shells" aren't. They don't really fit with BT. Plus, they'd have to be limited to small BA Drones (PA/ES) if they wanted to pass for Humans.  I'm going to guess that even if they did exist at one time, they've gone extinct now along with the Humans they were pretending to be.

LONG extinct. If they ever existed. But I'm not sure there is anything in BT lore to suggest that they ever had robots or androids that could truly mimic a natural human appearance. So I'm thinking a definite no-go there. As you mention, though, the organic parts were shells; the robots inside tended to be more conventionally Transformer-ish. So it's possible to bring the Pretenders in as regular ol' Transforming AutoMechs.

- Herb

[RifleMech]

No doubt. Glitterboy's suggestion of the Stuka for the alt mode was a perfect choice, I think.

...*sigh* So, I'm designing more, huh?

It does look like a good fit. :)

 ;D

If you prioritized those features over transformation, yeah, we could make a non-transforming Sensor Ghost.

No priorities right now. Not concerning this anyway.:(  Just making sure what can be done. :)

To be honest, this veers toward the fun bit of how sensors in BT are so comprehensive that there really is no such thing as an invisibility field for Mechs short of the standing still while using the Chameleon/Null-Sig System combo (or standing still with an active Void-Sig System). Magscan and radar are blocked by ECM, IR is blocked by stealth armors. And visuals are fooled by camouflage systems and mimetics...but nothing blots out the seismics of a moving BattleMech. Heck, visual camos really just produce a stealth modifier, as they're more or less like the Predator's cloaking field, which still produces a rippling and lensing effect. (This is why the Void-Sig is easier to target for conventional infantry than for any other unit types.)

...I have no idea where I was going with this, really.

I'm not looking for an invisibility field. I am looking to explore all the options to trick sensors though. Using projectors seems like one way of tricking visuals. It wouldn't be perfect though. 2D aren't as likely to be noticed during the day. There's also a chance that 2D and 3D could be tracked back to their source, especially at night. Still, they could work. They'd be distracting if nothing else.

I wonder if putting big speakers on the ground or using pile drivers could help mask a mech's steps. Not make it invisible. Just harder to detect.

Mostly a shade of blue so light that it looks almost white, with white baseboards and white ceiling. The flooring is a laminate designed to resemble bleached wood.

Sounds nice. :)

Sorry to hear that, bud. Hope it's nothing too serious and that things get better for you over there.

Thanks.  :) Unfortunately, I don't have money for a engine or the three weeks it'd take to replace it.  :'( I'm also in the middle of nowhere so walking isn't practical. It'd be real nice if things got better in a hurry.

In the case of our Syberians, they couldn't develop a practical conversion system that works on anything smaller than a BattleMech. Since every one of the Cassettes and *-master units is 5 tons or less, I translated them to their most useful form, which also happens to be the one that can move on its own.

Sounds good. :)

Historically, most Minicons were depicted as being at or just over human-size, so I'd stick with the automated battle armor our IE friends are now calling "MiniMechs".

Some do look like they'd be good MiniMechs. I like some of the vehicle modes though so whether or not it's a Mini or full size Mech would depend on the MiniCon.

If I were to introduce handheld weapons into Syberia's mechanoid eco-system, I'd leave them "brainless." But it COULD be fun if one of the battle armor-based "Target Masters" could operate them as up-scaled towed guns.

Wouldn't brainless non converting handheld weapons be available to Syberians as the SLDF was using them?  Having MiniMechs firing Field Guns would be fun. There were play sets that could represent that. I was thinking the converting ones. AutoMech carries them into battle firing then drops them to use onboard weapons. Then the "guns" convert and attack on their own. But if GunMechs can't be made that small then only 100 ton and heavier AutoMechs could use them. Oh well. :)

Sure, it can LOOK like it, but mechanically, it'd be one unit in each form.

 :thumbsup:

It depends on the unit, but generally, a triple-plus changer on Syberia would translate to two-plus AutoMechs, each representing a different alt mode, with the transformable ones having variations on the same robot mode. (And I likely wouldn't even do a bunch of the more ridiculous modes, because I found too many just...sucked.)

Makes sense. :) And I agree. Some of the modes were ridiculous and sucked.

LONG extinct. If they ever existed. But I'm not sure there is anything in BT lore to suggest that they ever had robots or androids that could truly mimic a natural human appearance. So I'm thinking a definite no-go there. As you mention, though, the organic parts were shells; the robots inside tended to be more conventionally Transformer-ish. So it's possible to bring the Pretenders in as regular ol' Transforming AutoMechs.

- Herb

I can't think of any human looking androids either. Probably the closest would be to use the best prosthetics possible. Basically a Cyborg with an AI for a brain. That or their humanness is a hologram. I can't see them surviving long after the humans either. They'd stick out, get captured, and then destroyed. So I think Pretenders would be out. Not the inner TF. Just the shell part. I normally played with mine that way anyway. :)

[HABeas2]

I'm not looking for an invisibility field. I am looking to explore all the options to trick sensors though. Using projectors seems like one way of tricking visuals. It wouldn't be perfect though. 2D aren't as likely to be noticed during the day. There's also a chance that 2D and 3D could be tracked back to their source, especially at night. Still, they could work. They'd be distracting if nothing else.

Oh, to be sure! I'd say they'd be just as distracting to the AutoMechs of Syberia as they would to human-piloted 'Mechs.

I wonder if putting big speakers on the ground or using pile drivers could help mask a mech's steps. Not make it invisible. Just harder to detect.

If nothing else, it would definitely serve as a kind of seismic white noise generator.

Thanks.  :) Unfortunately, I don't have money for a engine or the three weeks it'd take to replace it.  :'( I'm also in the middle of nowhere so walking isn't practical. It'd be real nice if things got better in a hurry.

Ouch, man. That sucks!

Some do look like they'd be good MiniMechs. I like some of the vehicle modes though so whether or not it's a Mini or full size Mech would depend on the MiniCon.

Exactly. We'd have to handle them on an individual basis, and choose the modes that are coolest.

Wouldn't brainless non converting handheld weapons be available to Syberians as the SLDF was using them?  Having MiniMechs firing Field Guns would be fun. There were play sets that could represent that. I was thinking the converting ones. AutoMech carries them into battle firing then drops them to use onboard weapons. Then the "guns" convert and attack on their own. But if GunMechs can't be made that small then only 100 ton and heavier AutoMechs could use them. Oh well. :)

Yeah, sorry. Come to think of it, a field gun is basically a handheld weapon without armor, so I can see Syberian AutoMechs alternating between letting MiniMechs operate them as Field Guns, and having AutoMechs grab them and fire them like regular weapons.

I can't think of any human looking androids either. Probably the closest would be to use the best prosthetics possible. Basically a Cyborg with an AI for a brain. That or their humanness is a hologram. I can't see them surviving long after the humans either. They'd stick out, get captured, and then destroyed. So I think Pretenders would be out. Not the inner TF. Just the shell part. I normally played with mine that way anyway. :)

Heh. You know, it would probably take only a small bit of programing to alter a battlesuit-mounted Camo System to create a human-like virtual skin. I'd have it look all video-gamey, and it would look even weirder as it won't hide the suit's actual shape beneath. Instead it looks more like someone just painted an unmodified battlesuit to look like a human, and everyone agreed to just go along with it like nothing was wrong.

I never got any Pretenders, but weren't those shells basically like Kinder eggs, anyway? No articulation at all, just a human/monster-shaped sarcophagus the Transformer burst out of?

- Herb

[glitterboy2098]

I had one. And pretty much. It had rotatable arms but that was it. The toy inside was much more fun to play with.

[Charistoph]

Sounds like the Cobra S.N.A.K.E. Suits, too.  Talk about your original Battle Armor...

[RifleMech]

Oh, to be sure! I'd say they'd be just as distracting to the AutoMechs of Syberia as they would to human-piloted 'Mechs.

If nothing else, it would definitely serve as a kind of seismic white noise generator.

 >:D  Cool!


Ouch, man. That sucks!

Totally!  :(

Exactly. We'd have to handle them on an individual basis, and choose the modes that are coolest.

 Cool. :thumbsup:

Yeah, sorry. Come to think of it, a field gun is basically a handheld weapon without armor, so I can see Syberian AutoMechs alternating between letting MiniMechs operate them as Field Guns, and having AutoMechs grab them and fire them like regular weapons.

Sounds cool. How many MiniMechs would it take to operate Field Guns?

Heh. You know, it would probably take only a small bit of programing to alter a battlesuit-mounted Camo System to create a human-like virtual skin. I'd have it look all video-gamey, and it would look even weirder as it won't hide the suit's actual shape beneath. Instead it looks more like someone just painted an unmodified battlesuit to look like a human, and everyone agreed to just go along with it like nothing was wrong.

Yeah, I can see that happening. Looks like a person with bits of BA sticking out here and there. Maybe a glitch or two in the projection.

I never got any Pretenders, but weren't those shells basically like Kinder eggs, anyway? No articulation at all, just a human/monster-shaped sarcophagus the Transformer burst out of?

- Herb

I think the arms moved but I don't remember. It's been a while since I played with them. If I can get to storage I'll let you know.

What glitterboy said. :)

I had one. And pretty much. It had rotatable arms but that was it. The toy inside was much more fun to play with.

Thanks. :) I wanted to say that but wasn't sure. And I agree. The toy inside was more fun to play with. :)

Sounds like the Cobra S.N.A.K.E. Suits, too.  Talk about your original Battle Armor...

I remember those.  :) They had this rubber skeleton thing that the legs and body would close around if you weren't putting it over an action figure. Those are old but I liked them more than those suits seen in the movie.  xp

[Luciora]

Virtual camo system to mimic a human, is that the equivalent of Syberian-cosplay?   ;D. Are we gonna discuss cultural aspects of the Syberians now?   ;D