Star Trek General Thread II: Strange New Posts

[Lorcan Nagle]

I wouldn't be surprised if the final decision was financial - like the 90's Trek casts were signed to six year contracts and only got a decent raise for series 7 - Terry Farrell quit DS9 in part because of underhanded tactics Rick Berman was using to undermine her negotiations and she was offered a main role in Becker which was more job security than one more year of Trek.  A lot of the DISCO cast are decent-sized names and/or get steady work so keeping them around might be proving too expensive.

[Cannonshop]

I wouldn't be surprised if the final decision was financial - like the 90's Trek casts were signed to six year contracts and only got a decent raise for series 7 - Terry Farrell quit DS9 in part because of underhanded tactics Rick Berman was using to undermine her negotiations and she was offered a main role in Becker which was more job security than one more year of Trek.  A lot of the DISCO cast are decent-sized names and/or get steady work so keeping them around might be proving too expensive.

That's highly likely-they spent quite a bit from season 1, including some fairly established names...but part of doing a prequel, is that you end up having to limit your run in a franchise.

Presumably, the major names had decent negotiators for agents, including the star.

there are other reasons to cancel a show in this genre after five years.  things like hitting your limit on story (especially in serial format, as opposed to episodic. One of the reasons SG-1 lasted a decade, was that it had a format that allowed for that)

[Lorcan Nagle]

there are other reasons to cancel a show in this genre after five years.  things like hitting your limit on story (especially in serial format, as opposed to episodic. One of the reasons SG-1 lasted a decade, was that it had a format that allowed for that)

That and SG-1 was saved from cancellation twice, and twice had big setpiece episodes meant to be the show's finale. The show was flexible enough that in each case they were able to conjure up a new big enemy.

[Cannonshop]

That and SG-1 was saved from cancellation twice, and twice had big setpiece episodes meant to be the show's finale. The show was flexible enough that in each case they were able to conjure up a new big enemy.

Yeah, true, but the innate flexibility of their format ALLOWED for that.  contrast with Babylon 5 which was originally conceived as 5 years, but peaked at 4 thanks to JMS having to pare it down to the essentials due to being under a financial gun-which led to 4 years of outstanding excellence, and after turner 'rescued it' one year of absolute mediocrity (but nicer SFX and more guest stars).

The problem being the Serial format versus Episodic.  Episodic with brief serials lets you get away with more both in terms of repeat-viewing, reruns/syndication, and in terms flex as far as what you can DO with the setting and story on the subject of renewal.

Discovery was Serial format, which lets you tell LONGER stories (not necessarily better-that's an argument that's gotten these threads closed wayyy too often, but LONGER certainly can be agreed upon by everyone), but those longer stories have a sort of 'half life' where you don't have the flexibility if a cast member gets hurt, or pregnant, or wants to take a year off and make "The Death of Stalin" or something.

Episodic television lets you have that flex. It also lets you get away with money-saving measures like bottle episodes (a staple of TNG and Voyager), experimental episodes (the SG1 "puppet" episode among others), different sub-genres and experimental stuff (SEven of Nine hosting the Doctor in her circuits, thus proving the actress can, in fact, actually act and wasn't just a fantastic pair of...in a catsuit)

and it's easier to renew, because it's easier to flex the cast, change writers mid-stream, change directors, let new directors try it out, or experiment with your writing.

[Jim1701]

So how long do you think before it's revealed that Riker is really a Changeling imposter.

[VanVelding]

So how long do you think before it's revealed that Riker is really a Changeling imposter.

I've been saying ^{something very similar to} this!

Also, if I were a Changling and I was tackled by a Klingon, I would simply rip them in half like a phone book. RIP to Titus Rikka, but I'm different.

[gyedid]

Thing is is this really cancellation or just show having ran it's course. It's cleat that Discovery was successful enough to get 5 seasons or possibly even more seasons if they had wanted that which seems to me like they didn't. Remember that Babylon 5 ran 5 seasons and it told it's story within that time even if season 5 wasn't as good as seasons before it. Not all shows are like The Simpsons and last forever.

It is effectively cancellation.  Season five was supposed to released sometime this year but has now been pushed back to 2024.  Also there are some reshoots/additional shoots that have been ordered to make what would've been the season finale into the series finale, so wrapping DISCO up with the current season was NOT the original plan.

Also, even on the currently continuing shows, there is as of yet no new production scheduled for 2024.  An ominous sign, IMO.

cheers,

Gabe

[Cannonshop]

It is effectively cancellation.  Season five was supposed to released sometime this year but has now been pushed back to 2024.  Also there are some reshoots/additional shoots that have been ordered to make what would've been the season finale into the series finale, so wrapping DISCO up with the current season was NOT the original plan.

Also, even on the currently continuing shows, there is as of yet no new production scheduled for 2024.  An ominous sign, IMO.

cheers,

Gabe

could it possibly be that they REALLY want to get the series finale right?  I mean, considering the dogs-dinner that was the Series Finale of Enterprise almost finished off the franchise entirely, maybe they just had second thoughts about what they had, and decided it needed to be bigger, louder, and uncut?

[Wrangler]

Paramount + is going through a painful merge with Showtime (which i can't understand why their getting rid of stuff..) which cost of Disco among others was one the standing out points.  No matter how iffy the stories have been written, their special effects/background stuff have been top notch.   Picard is also exiting after this season, so their left with only Strange New Worlds and this alleged Star Fleet Academy set in the 32nd Century.  Which is odd to me.  I've never been attracted to the academy plot thing since they tried get Shatner and Nimoy to star in film show casing them.   Teen angst / college years for future heroes isn't for me personally.

[Garrand]

so their left with only Strange New Worlds and this alleged Star Fleet Academy set in the 32nd Century. 

Are Lower Decks & Prodigy ending as well?

With the shennanigans going on with HBOMax, I'm wondering if the streaming networks are intent in alienating me!

Damon.

[I am Belch II]

Also have the Section 31 show that has been in works for years now.

Hope that one don't get made.

[BrianDavion]

Also have the Section 31 show that has been in works for years now.

Hope that one don't get made.

I heard a rumor the other day of a "Worf and Raffi" series being planned, so it might be that they're repurposing the idea to focus on those two "due to scheduling difficulties with Yeoh" which is good as they're starfleet intell not section 31. and I for one think a SFI show featuring Worf and Raffi would allow them to cover much the same ground, but also be more popular then a S31 series featuring "empress hitler"

[Lorcan Nagle]

Are Lower Decks & Prodigy ending as well?

They've both been renewed for at least one more series, as has Strange New Worlds

[BrianDavion]

They've both been renewed for at least one more series, as has Strange New Worlds

I'd not be suprised if Lower decks ran the most seasons of the paramount plus stuff, between the lower budget required for animation vs high end sci-fi with lot's of special effects, the popularity of the series (I've not met ANYONE who dislikes it) as well as it being easier to recast a voice actor then an actor, there's no reason it can't run for ages. it'd be intreasting if they slowly over the years down the road began to rotate in new cast and have old characters get promoted and move on.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Lower Decks doesn't seem to be as big a hit with the general public though.  Picard is constantly in Amazon's top 10 over here when it's on (it's number 5 tonight), but Lower Decks didn't even get into the top 10 for series 3.

Which isn't to say I wouldn't mind it going on for ages and especially rotating characters through the Cerritos, but it is what it is.

[Cannonshop]

Lower Decks doesn't seem to be as big a hit with the general public though.  Picard is constantly in Amazon's top 10 over here when it's on (it's number 5 tonight), but Lower Decks didn't even get into the top 10 for series 3.

Which isn't to say I wouldn't mind it going on for ages and especially rotating characters through the Cerritos, but it is what it is.

Animation is still kind of a niche market, and "Lower Decks" doesn't have the same reliance on childish humour and fart jokes that something like "The Simpsons" does-it includes actual character development instead of a permanent 'now'.

That said, it's one of TWO nutrek shows I like.  The other one is Strange New Worlds, and that's mainly because SNW has...hard to explain, but Picard ain't got it and Disco never had it even WITH Pike.

(though, to be fair, my favorite character from Discovery IS Jet Reno.  She is how you write a Munchkin, powergamer, rules-lawyering dice-bunking Uber character and do it well... but then, from TOS I was the weird kid who thought Bones was the best character on the show.)

I think it might just be a matter of finding 'trench writers' (not showrunners) who actually LIKE Star Trek, not just Star Trek's legend among commentators, but the actual SHOW, and want to do it well.

but that's just me spouting again.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I think it might just be a matter of finding 'trench writers' (not showrunners) who actually LIKE Star Trek, not just Star Trek's legend among commentators, but the actual SHOW, and want to do it well.

Of course, Picard and DISCO are the shows who have veteran Trek writers in the mix, while SNW doesn't.

[Cannonshop]

Of course, Picard and DISCO are the shows who have veteran Trek writers in the mix, while SNW doesn't.

"veteran" doesn't always mean "Good" though, Lorcan.  Sometimes it means "Can't reliably work anywhere else", or means "So wrapped up on their GoH status that they won't listen when their ideas are crap anymore".

sometimes it's the rookie who grew up loving the franchise who turns out the quality that the jaded veteran used to their own infallibility can't manage.

[Jim1701]

From what I've ready just about every streaming platform is severely curtailing their production budgets.  It may be a good sign that perhaps some of these bozos will realize you can't have a dozen different streaming services and expect to make money. 

[Cannonshop]

From what I've ready just about every streaming platform is severely curtailing their production budgets.  It may be a good sign that perhaps some of these bozos will realize you can't have a dozen different streaming services and expect to make money.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember the "cable boom" in the eighties.  It generated the comment "300 channels and nothing's on".

I think streaming's going in the same general direction with the same general outcomes-start off with one or two, then they multiply, and multiply, and multiply until there are so many  that none of them are profitable, then the weaker services get bought out or drop off, leaving the rest at about the size that makes a profit...of some kind.

[Lorcan Nagle]

"veteran" doesn't always mean "Good" though, Lorcan.  Sometimes it means "Can't reliably work anywhere else", or means "So wrapped up on their GoH status that they won't listen when their ideas are crap anymore".

sometimes it's the rookie who grew up loving the franchise who turns out the quality that the jaded veteran used to their own infallibility can't manage.

Yes, but you were talking about writers who like or dislike Star Trek, not writers who were burned out on it.  And the two most prominent veteran writers are Joe Menosky who now writes on The Orville which I'm assured is more Star Trek than Star Trek, and Kirsten Beyer who's Trek novel output slowed but has remained consistent.

There's a lot of attempts by fans to categorise and classify why they don't like Discovery or Picard, to make an objective fact like "the writers clearly hate Star Trek" or whatever.  This is in part because of that very specific nerd mindset about things having to fit in boxes, and because we've got a lot of ancillary pop culture dedicated to rating things on an allegedly objective scale - YouTube channels like CinemaSins that that claim to be comedy but also claim to be critics don't talk about why they like or dislike a movie or TV show, they talk about thing the subject gets wrong. , based on claims of objectivity that don't really exist. We've been trained to put things into boxes and "It's not for me" usually isn't one of those boxes. Instead it's ridiculous claims like "it's bad because the writers hate Star Trek"

[Cannonshop]

Yes, but you were talking about writers who like or dislike Star Trek, not writers who were burned out on it.  And the two most prominent veteran writers are Joe Menosky who now writes on The Orville which I'm assured is more Star Trek than Star Trek, and Kirsten Beyer who's Trek novel output slowed but has remained consistent.

There's a lot of attempts by fans to categorise and classify why they don't like Discovery or Picard, to make an objective fact like "the writers clearly hate Star Trek" or whatever.  This is in part because of that very specific nerd mindset about things having to fit in boxes, and because we've got a lot of ancillary pop culture dedicated to rating things on an allegedly objective scale - YouTube channels like CinemaSins that that claim to be comedy but also claim to be critics don't talk about why they like or dislike a movie or TV show, they talk about thing the subject gets wrong. , based on claims of objectivity that don't really exist. We've been trained to put things into boxes and "It's not for me" usually isn't one of those boxes. Instead it's ridiculous claims like "it's bad because the writers hate Star Trek"

You're right.  I can't argue your point, because you're right.

except when the Caricatures are better characters than the Characters.  Then you actually have a basis for comparison that works...from a certain point of view.

Your mileage may vary significantly.  I disliked Disco, but then, I was never a fan of Nylon Pants or leisure suits either, and my sister's decade-long crush on Andy Gibb cured me of ever liking the Bee-Gees.

kind of a mental vaccination.

Likewise for Discovery.  beautiful special effects, top-drawer acting talent and I admit, to me it was less satisfying than some of the cheesy fan-films.

I mean the REALLY cheesy ones, with the overweight college students instead of actors, shot on VHS recorders on poorly disguised sections of midwestern university campuses.

OTOH< the spinoff "Strange New Worlds" rocked my ****** socks off. 

That is ALL subjective, and I can't even say I hate everything from Discovery.  I like Jett Reno.  Jett Reno's improbable accomplishments WORK with the character, make the character work, or maybe it's that the Character MAKES them work.  acidic, ascerbic, maladjusted, harsh, hard to cope with and brilliant WORKS.

and...maybe it's the actress.

Dunno.  Not sure. maybe I just like my geniuses to be a little bit butch, instead of soft and cuddly-sensitive and super-duper emotionally fragile.

so, subjective again.

[Jim1701]

I don't know if you're old enough to remember the "cable boom" in the eighties.  It generated the comment "300 channels and nothing's on".

I think streaming's going in the same general direction with the same general outcomes-start off with one or two, then they multiply, and multiply, and multiply until there are so many  that none of them are profitable, then the weaker services get bought out or drop off, leaving the rest at about the size that makes a profit...of some kind.

Oh I'm more than old enough to remember though where I lived was waaaaay out in the boonies so no cable at our house.  I grew up on one UHF Independent station which is the only one that got halfway decent reception.  Most of the television of my youth were reruns of Gilligan Island, Beverly Hillbillies, Petticoat Junction, Green Acres, Star Trek, etc. 

The point being that it's less about getting weaker than the fact that no one studio/network has enough content or produce enough content for a streaming service and have enough subscribers to make it profitable.  There just aren't enough subscribers to go around.  Not full time subscribers anyway. 

[Dragon Cat]

I'm not going to miss Discovery I think its ran its course. The only thing they could do is an exploration type show and that's Strange New Worlds

Speaking of which SNW can't step wrong so far from what I've seen even Kirk grew on me after a couple of watches

Lower Decks I've never gotten into, to the point i dont like it, its the voices just feels like they are constantly shouting and just being ridiculous (i get thats the point i just find it grating), even the Titan episodes, although I'm curious about the crossover

Prodigy is great it just works really well although now they are on a proper starship it might be weird

Picard I've liked it, it's not been great but it's been good, season 3 feels like it should have been season 1 although I know why they didn't go that way.

Most recent episode or picard I felt really sorry for Picard in the end when he realised a memory he had remembered he'd remembered it for a reason. Nice to see Rikers redemption and a classic "Star Trek" solution in the end of the episode. It felt like a stand alone contained episode which was weird given Picards format

[VanVelding]

****** me. I was ready to stamp 3x04 "almost mediocre" about 10 minutes until the end, but it really pulled itself up to "good, actually." Best episode of the series...so far?

[Cannonshop]

Oh I'm more than old enough to remember though where I lived was waaaaay out in the boonies so no cable at our house.  I grew up on one UHF Independent station which is the only one that got halfway decent reception.  Most of the television of my youth were reruns of Gilligan Island, Beverly Hillbillies, Petticoat Junction, Green Acres, Star Trek, etc. 

The point being that it's less about getting weaker than the fact that no one studio/network has enough content or produce enough content for a streaming service and have enough subscribers to make it profitable.  There just aren't enough subscribers to go around.  Not full time subscribers anyway.

which shows a weakness that manifested in the MMO market about ten years or so ago: unless you're already the biggest on the block by way of being a founder of the movement, the subscription model isn't actually that profitable.

[I am Belch II]

I just would say that Episode 4 Season 3 of Picard was the best of the episodes in all of NewTrek.
It is what Star Trek should of been since. So many thing awesome things.....was it perfect well no. I have my criticisms of the episode. The safe space in the ship when the ship is "sinking" but whatever.

[gyedid]

Well...I certainly didn't expect HER to return.

That was a big surprise and a well-kept secret.

cheers,

Gabe

[Dragon Cat]

Yup I very much enjoyed her return, and the turmoil it caused. Also the character got the arc closure it deserved
 
I'd love to know what the Red room visions he's having are though they are a bit confusing especially since they cause him to go all super-commando or have visions of being one

[woofwoof]

Well...I certainly didn't expect HER to return.

That was a big surprise and a well-kept secret.

cheers,

Gabe

So who is going to be next?

They are certainly dragging Lore and Moriarty out.