Slow light.

[agen2]

I was wondering how useful it was to deploy a light mechs that only moves 5/8?
In particular I was thinking about the Cougar and what could be its suitable terrain in your opinion?

[Colt Ward]

Death trap in mech vs mech combat with anything but lights after the FCCW.  By the time of the Dark Ages, a light mech IMO has to be going 8/12 to be survivable, maybe 7/11/7 with some tricks.

[Sabelkatten]

Fire support, close escort, or if it can jump it can move around behind cover to threaten larger units (so that they need escorts).

[AlphaMirage]

Its fine for light duty operations such as supporting BA and tanks, it is also an adequate sniper. I would suggest always making it jump mobile to get that unique advantage. For a stand up fight definitely not, its just to flimsy in against ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles.

[Gorgon]

If you use them as fire support for something nasty that you're opponent has to deal with right now, they can avoid too much attention. So if you want to save some tonnage / BV / PV on fire support to field an Berserker or whatnot, they can work.

[Dapper Apples]

5/8 means you can fit a gauss rifle on it /steiner

[Colt Ward]

Sure, and I have dueled that version with a Pack Hunter.

Pack Hunter was not damaged, it killed the Cougar in 3 hits.

[The Eagle]

Following the revelation in my MOTW article on it that the Hammer is not a direct engage weapon but instead an engineering vehicle, I have used the Slammer variant with much success in that role.  You have no idea how frustrating it can be for an opponent you keep dropping Smoke rounds and Thunder minefields across their lines of approach & fire.

[Sabelkatten]

I loaded up a Kit Fox with a LB2 and ATM3s for a pretty decent sniper back in the day. And I still like to fill out a force with a Battle Hawk in case the enemy might get ideas about close assaults.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The problem with the Cougar is that it's short on armor and thus really vulnerable to enemy fire, and it's got enough weaponry to insure that it will be a priority target when it appears.  It's basically a miniature Loki.

[Wolf72]

I immediately thought Crimson Hawk.

[Scotty]

Cougars are for going head to head with an IS Medium and blowing it to pieces, cackling madly and mocking them for thinking their superior armor was going to save them from your righteous firepower.

They are not for going head to head with Heavies or other main line mechs in single combat.

[Fallen_Raven]

The Federated Suns and the Draconis Combine both have them for their signature 'mechs. As long as you aren't trying to fight against heavies, the Valkyrie and Panther both work just fine. Its when you try to do the "one of each weight class" battles that you get into trouble.

[Daryk]

Jump jets are the great equalizer here...  8)

And to be clear, I don't think they were part of the OP's math on this...  ^-^

[Caedis Animus]

The problem with the Cougar is that it's short on armor and thus really vulnerable to enemy fire, and it's got enough weaponry to insure that it will be a priority target when it appears.  It's basically a miniature Loki.

It's a mech I generally consider only worthwhile for narrative games for this exact reason. It's too fragile to justify its threat potential or BV IMO, unless you're running an A, B, E, or G.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

It is really useless if you want the best x numbers of units in your lance/company/so on. Using those is only economical, fluffwise and/or taste issue, such as lower C-Bill, lower BV, and/or your own personal interest.

The only exception for this would be, if you want a mech that is able to stand atop of a building and do not want the building to be collapsed. Then you would need for a urbie or its kin.

The other possible exception is when you are GMing a campaign and want to put some expendable weak enemy to be crushed freely by your party.

Also consider that not all lights are equal. Light covers 20 to 35 tons(if you ignore ultralight). A 20 tons mech is not the same light mech with a 35 tons mech, which have almost double of weight.

Personally, I think that it is fine to regard those mech as the alternative protomech, rather than full battlemech. So around three of those slow lights are considered as one full battlemech or combat vehicle in the lance formation, for example.

[Vonshroom]

Slow lights can be incredibly useful designs but it depends entirely on how you intend to use them. In the later era the slower light weight designs have a significantly harder time competing. In 3025 mechs like the Panther and the Valkyrie are slow, but have respectable armor for their size. By using longer ranged weapons and standard engines they can fall in as a fourth member of a heavier lance quite well. An inner sphere direct fire lance of designs like Warhammers, Marauders etc. (or solid trooper mediums) can be well complimented by a slow light. Basically they fill the roll of a "pocket medium". But have the cost or tonnage of a light mech. This can be important for meeting BV or tonnage requirements in game. Or in universe the lower cost of a light is going to be an attractive feature. Since these mechs aren't the top of the line or most dangerous they don't tend to wear a "shoot me" hat. Make no mistake though, while slower, these lights are capable of outright butchering most other lights of the era. And that is really where they shine on their own is against members of their own weight class.

Unfortunately slow moving light units in particular have had some of the furthest fall due to tech creep and especially when considering clan tech. That does not mean that they are not useful! The Cougar specifically lacks the armor to go toe to toe even with some of the other clan designs of its same weight (which are significantly faster on average). What it lacks in speed and armor it makes up for with firepower. I don't think its any coincidence that the Prime config has two of the best guns in the game to deal with fast light units....The Clan LPL is absolutely obscene weapon against lights and especially Inner Sphere lights. So if you are fighting inner sphere mechs a Cougar can stomp them. It outguns a lot of higher end inner sphere heavies and even some mediums from the same era and will trash IS lights. The LRM's and LPLs allow it to stay at range and pound enemy's apart. If a Cougar is facing other lights or lower medium weights chances are they won't hold up for long. When facing heavier designs odds are the Cougar has other heavier meaner friends, and as a result isn't likely to be the primary target.

Using a Cougar against other clanners can be a bit more difficult. However when you look at the BV cost, and the weight the Cougar shines. Even using CBill costs it makes a ton of sense to roll with. Its relatively cheap. Looking at tonnage and BV two Cougars should be the equivalent of a single Timber Wolf or Summoner. But given the choice I'll take the two Cougars over either mech. So it makes sense from this standpoint. Is it going to grandstand against mechs that go the same speed it does? No. But its got the firepower that will scrap anything lighter and two Cougars certainly will be able to go toe to toe with a clan heavy of the same BV cost or weight.

All the slow lights work best in at least lance / star sized engagements or greater. I would way rather have a Trinary composed of a single heavy star and two stars of cougars with a few faster lights than a heavy binary for the same BV and tonnage. If you are thinking in terms of CBills then the cost of a Cougar is something like 1/3 the cost of a clan Heavy twice its weight. Mechs like the Cougar need other units in order to be effective and realize their potential. Ultimately they need to be ignored long enough to do enough damage. Inner Sphere slow lights from the same era like the Garm, Hammer, Hollander etc. must be played the same way. These are specialized mechs that typically fill the role of light fire support. Due to clan tech the Cougar can do this job a lot better. Just looking at the Cougars armament in each of its standard configs gives you a pretty good idea of how to play it. They are mostly geared towards long range fire. Keep them in a sniper role with tougher units keeping your enemies focus and faster units screening them and you will do fine.

Terrain wise long range focused light armor mechs are going to benefit from using things like trees (edges of trees) to bump up to hit modifiers. Attempt to position yourself to only be engaged by a single enemy at a time and try to give that enemy something better to shoot at.

[DevianID]

In a BV balanced game, slow lights are fine as long as they are still low cost.  The Cougar has 2 clan large pulse and some LRMs so it can accurately snipe, or provide indirect LRM support.  Its a great slow light and should earn its value back.  The Puma prime is much more expensive, and is paying for 6/9 speed on a dedicated sniper platform that doesnt want to move.  Its a bad slow light at its high cost cause it's much harder to get its battle value back in a game.

The urbanmech is the slowest light.  It needs a perfect set of terrain to be useful, so there is a point where your light is too slow.  I think 4/6/4 or 5/8 are fine pocket mediums though.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Yes. If you can only pick one Atlas or one Urbanmech, then everyone pick the Atlas without a doubt. But if you have to fight in a city, and you can pick one Atlas or 5~8 Urbanmechs, then Urbanmech is actually on the upper hand.

[Col Toda]

Any light mech slow or not is ok for militia defense particlarly in an Urban area.  3075 Wight comes to mind . Standard heavy PPC and 2 med lasers . Alternate model snub nosed ppc  and 2 medium laser and 5 jump jets . Max or near max Heavy or Standard Ferro Fibrous.  Due  the Compact engine you tend to require to Core the center Torso in order to kill it. Most lights have XL engine which die whenever Any torso in blown off .

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yes. If you can only pick one Atlas or one Urbanmech, then everyone pick the Atlas without a doubt. But if you have to fight in a city, and you can pick one Atlas or 5~8 Urbanmechs, then Urbanmech is actually on the upper hand.

Well, given that a force of 8 Urbanmechs costs significantly more BV than one Atlas, I should hope they'd have an advantage.

[OatsAndHall]

I can work with the mech if it jumps 5 hexes. I don't like working with it, but I can. Lol

[Colt Ward]

It works until someone hits it with Clan weapons or IS ERPPC/Gauss.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well, given that a force of 8 Urbanmechs costs significantly more BV than one Atlas, I should hope they'd have an advantage.

I know, and that's why I said 5~8. Although I don't think that there are an Atlas that worth similar BV with 8 urbies.

[Elmoth]

Well, an atlas is scary in reputation, but it is far from the best mech at that level of tonnag eand/or firepower (much better mechs available). I suppose the Atlas is a stapple of Immortal Warrior or something.

[Daryk]

3/5/3 is the slowest I'd prefer to work with.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

3/5/3 is the slowest I'd prefer to work with.

Else it is easily left behind and only useful in the siege warfare.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In the Succession Wars, I'm willing to use something that's 4/6/4, but in the Clan Invasion and later I want something that can move at least 5/8/5.

[Madcap]

In the Succession Wars, I'm willing to use something that's 4/6/4, but in the Clan Invasion and later I want something that can move at least 5/8/5.

Agreed. It depends on the Era, but using a light 'Mech that is slower than 6/9/0 or 5/8/5 better have a subtable role for its lack of defenses. Without either speed or armor to protect it, light 'Mechs crumple fast. I love Commandos (and have since the 80s), but even their 6/9/0 speed might not be enough to save them at times.

Related but offtopic: Slow mediums also annoy me as much. I love Hatchetmans, but their slow speed for a melee 'Mech made no sense (I always customize mine to at least 5/8/X, usually 5/8/5.)

[Marveryn]

3/5/3 is the slowest I'd prefer to work with.

You say this but then you run into an Arrow urbie with a nuke.  then you would be ok with it