Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!

[Church14]

Well, this at least confirms (to me, anyway) that Alaric's rejection wasn't a sinister plot to destabilize the RasDom, and he seemed to be earnest in what he said to the Khans about trying it their way. That's something, at least.

In general, I’d recommend reading it directly. My paraphrasing loses nuance. But I think I preserved the gist.

And yeah, to Alaric’s credit, he was willing to let a setup he doesn’t understand have a chance to come to the result he wanted.

[Geg]

:D

I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realise how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.

Honestly I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognising how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake. Assuming a 50/50 Clan/Rasalhague split and having a black hat white hat war would have been simpler, even if it ignored prior sources. Except that has its own set of problems.

It feels like TPTB are in world / setting building mode.   There is a ton of detail, and a fantastic amount of gray space and story hooks for players to attach their stories and campaigns too.  Taking in everything from FM3135, ER3145, and Bonfire of Worlds is still just a massive amount of information, and it's all bouncing off a community that is highly resistant to change.

It will probably take a decade for everything from ilClan to IKEO to become fully understood by the player base.

One of the real "challenges" with the ilClan era, is that facts are spreed out between:  sourcebooks, novels, and shrapnel and it's all partially summarized, in an often partisan manner, by YouTubers, Redditors, and forum posters.   And everything is made that much harder, because the setting and story is deliberately complicated in order to open up a lot of gray space for players to build campaigns and tell their own stories.

Even for people who have read everything, they need to reach back years to remember the details of a specific scene

Any substantial change to the setting takes something like a decade to be understood and accepted (in at least part) by forum / community.   

[tassa_kay]

In general, I’d recommend reading it directly. My paraphrasing loses nuance. But I think I preserved the gist.

Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to spend money on a book that features Jiyi Chistu so heavily (I don't find him or his magical Falcon remnants interesting at all), so in this case, I'm kinda at your mercy here.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

:D

I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realise how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.

Honestly I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognising how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake. Assuming a 50/50 Clan/Rasalhague split and having a black hat white hat war would have been simpler, even if it ignored prior sources. Except that has its own set of problems.

Swinging back for a second (sorry late to the conversation)

Please keep adding complexity: fleshing out a faction or setting or region HELPS the universe as a whole even if people don’t like some of the changes. I love that we got a look at more about the Dominion even if the setting was a civil war. I enjoy that we got mentions of the previous fiction (Freeminders and even Lars being added back in) even if I didn’t like where it ended up. You added to the faction and we got ‘screen time’.

Now many people can’t see things right in front of them and many people think theirs something in between the lines. Our imaginations run wild with what we think will happen and then we spin our conspiracies into imagined facts that are not real. The internet only makes it harder because detecting sarcasm or emotion or anything like that is hard to do. So if I ask about the RDS Alshain and if it is a Lev III or not and then if someone asks about Alaric Senpai who knows if either of us are serious. Sadly this leads to arguments and what not because… well humans

Anyways… the Joiners might have won now but who knows: as Jellico said this is book one. Who knows what the DCMS might do or even the Dominion might do. We’re all theorizing about a war but for all we know they could just sit back and skirmish for the next century while everyone figures out their stuff.

Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to spend money on a book that features Jiyi Chistu so heavily (I don't find him or his magical Falcon remnants interesting at all), so in this case, I'm kinda at your mercy here.

To each their own: I will say personally though I enjoy the idea of what he and Marena of the AML are trying to do and represent and that’s of the Clans doing things different. Sure of course they’re not standard ways of the Clans, but IMO it’s cool to see all these minor factions come from the rubble and have unique identities. Again to each their own.

It does pain me to see a Kodiak in Falcon colors or to have Bear Cadets treated so badly that they approve being in the Falcons but it is an interesting story.

[tassa_kay]

To each their own: I will say personally though I enjoy the idea of what he and Marena of the AML are trying to do and represent and that’s of the Clans doing things different. Sure of course they’re not standard ways of the Clans, but IMO it’s cool to see all these minor factions come from the rubble and have unique identities. Again to each their own.

Marena and the AML, to me, are actually something different: a direct challenge to the caste system that isn't immediately being stamped out. I think they have a ton of potential. Jiyi, on the other hand, is just another Clanner Mary Sue who can do no wrong while bucking the system, and that's very unengaging to me. In a perfect world, our new aggressive Horse saKhan will return to Sudeten with the Bucephalus and glass him out of existence. But alas, the fans seem to enjoy this cheesy trope of a character, so all I can do is ignore him. 

[Orwell84]

I'll second previous comments about adding more flavour and complexity to large factions. It's one of the main reasons I like Dominions Divided since it did this for the RasDom, and to a lesser extent the FedSuns.

Anyways… the Joiners might have won now but who knows: as Jellico said this is book one. Who knows what the DCMS might do or even the Dominion might do. We’re all theorizing about a war but for all we know they could just sit back and skirmish for the next century while everyone figures out their stuff.

Fanboy fantasy from my previous post aside, that's the best case scenario I'm actually expecting for the RasDom.

Marena and the AML, to me, are actually something different: a direct challenge to the caste system that isn't immediately being stamped out. I think they have a ton of potential. Jiyi, on the other hand, is just another Clanner Mary Sue who can do no wrong while bucking the system, and that's very unengaging to me. In a perfect world, our new aggressive Horse saKhan will return to Sudeten with the Bucephalus and glass him out of existence. But alas, the fans seem to enjoy this cheesy trope of a character, so all I can do is ignore him. 

It could be these more enlightened characters are to be the new normal for the 32nd century Clans as hardline traditionalists dwindle in number and become fading relics of an earlier age. Though you're right, that kind of Clanner is getting to be a bit overused.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

The saying is that the Ravens have the largest fleet, quiaff, and there is no real ground room for them

Well, Alarics Fortress wall does need jumpship drives after all

[Metallgewitter]

The saying is that the Ravens have the largest fleet, quiaff, and there is no real ground room for them

Well, Alarics Fortress wall does need jumpship drives after all

The majority of the Raven fleet is mothballed. And needs A LOT OF manpower and facilities to get working again.

[tassa_kay]

The majority of the Raven fleet is mothballed. And needs A LOT OF manpower and facilities to get working again.

No it's not. The Ravens finished reactivating their fleet years before HotW/ilClan.

[DOC_Agren]

No it's not. The Ravens finished reactivating their fleet years before HotW/ilClan.

Which provides the Ravens with an Instant Win, without anyone else having a functional fleet.  So it will have to go away, sadly

[tassa_kay]

Which provides the Ravens with an Instant Win, without anyone else having a functional fleet.  So it will have to go away, sadly

It definitely doesn't give them an "Instant Win", especially not in the age of Pocket WarShips. And it's counterbalanced by the fact that their ground forces are downright anemic and are struggling just to hold onto the few crappy FedSuns planets they have (and the Combine worlds they were given). I'm choosing to remain optimistic for the time being. So optimistic, in fact, that I'm hoping the rumors about the Ravens building their own Leviathan III at Quatre Belle turn out to be true so they can get in on the Big Fun with the Ghost Bears and smack the Combine around a little. 

[Jellico]

Someone needs to remind TPTB at all times that the Draconis Combine builds Vengeances.

The treatment of aerospace in Hour of the Wolf leaves me with little confidence but...

The Dominion, Alliance, and Combine all have very solid DropShip options and can field formidable squadron. Everyone always focuses on the WarShips but this is where the bulk of the Dominion's and Combine's fighting power would be.
Regarding WarShips, the Combine should be fielding C3 equipped heavy squadrons. The combat Nekohono'os make use of a very specific exploit, 108 marines with a modern Small Craft to get them into combat. The older Raven ships are vulnerable to boarding actions and multiple Vengeances are just the distraction to get the troops on board. A WarShip demands multiple DropShip squadrons. I haven't even got into how the Dominion has been building Hunters and Odyssey for decades and the implications of that.

Which is a long way of saying the potential exists for a fun naval war even without the WarShips. If TPTB remember the option exists and doesn't just treat the WarShips as taxi

[VensersRevenge]

The Combine and Suns fleets are also in an information black hole right now

[Metallgewitter]

No it's not. The Ravens finished reactivating their fleet years before HotW/ilClan.

Did they reactivate their entire fleet? FM 3145 makes it sound as if the Ravens don't have the facilities for it. Yes they activated one Star but that is not what they have mothballed
Is there any mention or lore book I missed?

Also: how do you get rid of Warships in the current age? Crash stuff into it, swarm them with fighters, use tactical nukes. The age of huge fleets is long gone

[nova_dew]

Someone needs to remind TPTB at all times that the Draconis Combine builds Vengeances.

The treatment of aerospace in Hour of the Wolf leaves me with little confidence but...

The Dominion, Alliance, and Combine all have very solid DropShip options and can field formidable squadron. Everyone always focuses on the WarShips but this is where the bulk of the Dominion's and Combine's fighting power would be.
Regarding WarShips, the Combine should be fielding C3 equipped heavy squadrons. The combat Nekohono'os make use of a very specific exploit, 108 marines with a modern Small Craft to get them into combat. The older Raven ships are vulnerable to boarding actions and multiple Vengeances are just the distraction to get the troops on board. A WarShip demands multiple DropShip squadrons. I haven't even got into how the Dominion has been building Hunters and Odyssey for decades and the implications of that.

Which is a long way of saying the potential exists for a fun naval war even without the WarShips. If TPTB remember the option exists and doesn't just treat the WarShips as taxi

Also that the Dominion's Black Navy forces didn't take part in the civil unrest/war/family squabble and are untouched iirc and the large amounts of Combat Dropships (and some combat small craft) we have access to via production and trade, Nagasawa-class paired with an NL-45 Gunboat i'm looking at you, or a Vanir with three NL-45's

[tassa_kay]

Did they reactivate their entire fleet? FM 3145 makes it sound as if the Ravens don't have the facilities for it. Yes they activated one Star but that is not what they have mothballed
Is there any mention or lore book I missed?

No, you just misread the FM3145 entry. It specifically says that the Ravens have reactivated their fleet (at the cost of straining their economy and not being able to expand their ground forces). The Naval Stars listed are shown in the Ravens' force deployments table, all of them at 100% strength and assigned to each of their frontline Galaxies.

This is confirmed in ER3145, where it is mentioned that there are rumors that started circulating in 3135 about the Ravens reactivating its mothballed fleet, and that the Suns/Combine conflict that started in the early 3140s brought confirmation of those rumors.

[Metallgewitter]

You are right both books state that the Ravens reactivated their fleet. FM 3145 even lists every ship they have in service. But also, as you said, that is their opnly advantage as their ground forces suffered for it. especially as the Alliance is not heavily industrialized and also not that haveily populated. so if you break the fleet the Ravens are in essenc a toothless tiger. I had read it as if the ships are reactivated but not fully combat ready.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Someone needs to remind TPTB at all times that the Draconis Combine builds Vengeances.

The treatment of aerospace in Hour of the Wolf leaves me with little confidence but...

The Dominion, Alliance, and Combine all have very solid DropShip options and can field formidable squadron. Everyone always focuses on the WarShips but this is where the bulk of the Dominion's and Combine's fighting power would be.
Regarding WarShips, the Combine should be fielding C3 equipped heavy squadrons. The combat Nekohono'os make use of a very specific exploit, 108 marines with a modern Small Craft to get them into combat. The older Raven ships are vulnerable to boarding actions and multiple Vengeances are just the distraction to get the troops on board. A WarShip demands multiple DropShip squadrons. I haven't even got into how the Dominion has been building Hunters and Odyssey for decades and the implications of that.

Which is a long way of saying the potential exists for a fun naval war even without the WarShips. If TPTB remember the option exists and doesn't just treat the WarShips as taxi

Oh I can never discount the Bears aerospace (non-Warship) fleet. We have Aesirs and Vanirs (along with lots of other types) and we have/had a whole dedicated Aerospace Galaxy to boot.

I’ve always had a health respect for the Combines Dropships. Their Warships might have been meh but between the Nekohono and others they design they have a healthy DropShip wing, and enough aerospace to put a serious fight with the Bears.

The Ravens on the other hand have undisputed air authority…. But once again that doesn’t help win a ground conflict. The type of war will depend on how effective they will be on prosecuting it.


I totally forgot about our Jumpship production. I did not consider that and that is a bit of an advantage. That’s a thing most people tend to forget about IMO, Jumpships and transportation.

And replying others: yes the age of the Fleet is over but those behemoths that are left can still hurt. I know TPTB have tried to get rid of most of them for the settings sake but I hope if we’re to lose anything more it will be a decent send off.

[tassa_kay]

And replying others: yes the age of the Fleet is over but those behemoths that are left can still hurt. I know TPTB have tried to get rid of most of them for the settings sake but I hope if we’re to lose anything more it will be a decent send off.

I hope we get a resurgence of WarShips at some point. I loathe the fact that TPTB have made a point to get rid of them, and think losing them takes away a bit of the setting's flavor. Lancer hasn't had a problem integrating combat starships into their setting without taking the focus off the mecha, and I hold out hope that one day TPTB will get it figured out, too.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

I hope we get a resurgence of WarShips at some point. I loathe the fact that TPTB have made a point to get rid of them, and think losing them takes away a bit of the setting's flavor. Lancer hasn't had a problem integrating combat starships into their setting without taking the focus off the mecha, and I hold out hope that one day TPTB will get it figured out, too.

One of the many reasons I enjoyed the two Succession Wars and two Liberation of Terra sourcebooks because of the naval actions. I totally agree and it’s a shame to see it disappear. The Dominion getting a Leviathan III gives me hope for naval engagements but at the same time I know it won’t be large battles. Even the Ursa Major fight in the Second War was only a five ship battle and that was epic.

[tassa_kay]

One of the many reasons I enjoyed the two Succession Wars and two Liberation of Terra sourcebooks because of the naval actions. I totally agree and it’s a shame to see it disappear. The Dominion getting a Leviathan III gives me hope for naval engagements but at the same time I know it won’t be large battles. Even the Ursa Major fight in the Second War was only a five ship battle and that was epic.

It's so funny you say that about those Historical volumes as I was literally just reading them today and for that very reason! And hell, I'd be just as happy to see smaller-scale naval actions like what you mentioned in the Second Combine-Dominion War... but I don't want to see it just be assault droppers and PWS, damn it, I wanna see some actual WarShips! The Alshain (and, if the rumors turn out to be true, the Ravens' own Lev III that they might be building) give me hope that we'll see some sort of balance.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

It's so funny you say that about those Historical volumes as I was literally just reading them today and for that very reason! And hell, I'd be just as happy to see smaller-scale naval actions like what you mentioned in the Second Combine-Dominion War... but I don't want to see it just be assault droppers and PWS, damn it, I wanna see some actual WarShips! The Alshain (and, if the rumors turn out to be true, the Ravens' own Lev III that they might be building) give me hope that we'll see some sort of balance.

The only real PWS’s I want to see in big naval fights are the plethora of RotS PWS’s they supposedly had: Castrums and Tiamats supported by all the other PWS they had access to (Arondrights, Interdictors, etc).
If we’re going to get a big PWS/ fleet battle for the modern ages can we at least have the big boys come out to play.

One of the coolest (IMO) Warship fights was in the First War when the AFFS had a couple squadrons of LAM’s land on a Samarkand Carrier and tear it apart from the inside, using their other carriers air wings as a distraction. Like let’s see the Crescent Hawks do that to the Bears new Leviathan and that be an epic fight/death (admittedly it would make no sense but who cares at that point).

I am glad that nothing happened to the Dominion Fleet in our little civil war. That would have really sucked. I feel bad for the Falcons losing the Emerald Talon to Malvinas antics even if it was crippled: sure their was a fight but I feel like it could have been repaired over time.

[nova_dew]

I swear no one does subtlety or reads between lines any more. A large number of readers seem to think the Joiners have won for now and ever more.
As noted from before DD, we are in book one. There is a long way to go yet.

Not directly this, but I wonder how many forum members and BT fans have neurodivergences (known or unknown) that make the new books A) a slog and B) take them literally because that's how their brain is?

I also wonder if that was some of the issue with the Jihad era, it was cool to see the chaos from an in universe view but the most useful bit to me was the timelines because it gave me the fixed datum points that my brain needs to make sense of things, it's one of my issues with the way things are atm, I need a novel (that i can struggle with because i can forget what's happened a page ago) and a source book that's intentionally vague and missing bits from the novel, "To create more opportunity for player narative" (sic) so i can't see the whole picture. Yes this is a me problem, but it might not be just a me, me problem, do you see the problem this could course, with information over multiple formats some being difficult for me and/or others to digest?, I understand that CGL has to push it's products, it's a company.

So no i don't do subtle or read between the lines, because it's not how I was born, the only thing I have is what is in the books.

[Orwell84]

Not directly this, but I wonder how many forum members and BT fans have neurodivergences (known or unknown) that make the new books A) a slog and B) take them literally because that's how their brain is?

I have high-functioning autism, if that fills your criteria. There was a time when I would have taken everything at face value, and that's still my default mode for most part. But 20+ years of education and experience with how normal humans think and speak means I'm better able to read between the lines, understand and dish out deadpan snark, spot veiled insults, etc.

Regarding BattleTech, unless it's explicitly conspiracy theory material I tend to take info at face value unless I know or suspect it's contradicted somewhere. Or both parties are unreliable narrators. But I wouldn't consider it a retcon if in-universe a character or intel report was later shown to be wrong.

For myself, I don't find either novels or sourcebooks a slog because of length. They're only a slog if I find them uninteresting, like (heresy!) the first two GDL novels when I tried re-reading them last year.

As for Jellico's point about the Joiners, I didn't actually get the impression the Joiners had won long-term, or even at the end of DD. More like both sides have put the grudge on hold while doing an activity they're both looking forward to.

[Metallgewitter]

The end of Dominions divided made it sound like as if the current Ghost Bear leadership is trying to use a quick war with an outside enemy to glue the separate elements together. Basically united in front of a common enemy. Problem is:
1. The Bears are the aggressor.
2. The Combine is despite their retreat from most of their conquests in the Suns still a formidable and fanatical opponent and may take the Bears as their own "unification" event because Yori has cleaned house as well and needs something to rally around
3. The shortt civil war hasn't changed much. While it seems the Joiners have won that is most likely only temporary. If the war against the Combine goes south (which the wording implies) who knows what happens next. Maybe the big troop resevere Aalaric speculated on will vanish in more wars. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Bears realize "Hey wait a minute. Who actually made us fight among ourselves?" and point their guns at the Wolves next? Kind of like what happened when the Wolves egged the Horses on to attack the Dominion before the Jihad

[JAMES_PRYDE]

That is true, he (Alaric man child) did make them fight amongst themselves. Will be interesting when they realize this

[CJC070]

I had a thought that one reason why the writers and developers may have created the joiner-denier dynamic was to create new mercenary groups.  Although there will be an underlying pressure in the Dominion you will also have disaffected members leaving and making their own way.  Joiners, of course, will team up with Alaric and his Wolves.  Deniers will try to find their own way most will work for the FedSuns, Lyrans, and FWL.  Of course few will join the Combine or Capellans but last I heard neither were really hiring either.

[Metallgewitter]

Perhaps the Dominion becomes splintered as well. This seems to be the current theme that a lot of nations splinter (or rather balkanize). Maybe a break up along the Joiner Denier lines? Or perhaps even among nationalities? A Vega Protectorate, a "Real Rasalhague Republic and a Bear Dominion? And along comes the Star League to collect all the pieces

[tassa_kay]

I feel like if we that was the direction we were gonna be heading, we'd have seen it happen already.

[CJC070]

Perhaps the Dominion becomes splintered as well. This seems to be the current theme that a lot of nations splinter (or rather balkanize). Maybe a break up along the Joiner Denier lines? Or perhaps even among nationalities? A Vega Protectorate, a "Real Rasalhague Republic and a Bear Dominion? And along comes the Star League to collect all the pieces

If they become “splintered” I see it more along the lines of the FWL.  They’ve unified the FWL if they wanted to splinter all the major factions they would have killed the current Captain-General and let nature take its course.  I’m not saying the splinter factions will disappear just we will not see the rise of a thousand nations.