Alternative missile ammunition and Zellbrigen

[Gorgon]

Curious question for you all:

How does Zellbrigen treat alternative missile ammunition? I know that NARC and Artemis are allowed, obviously. But how about thunder, smoke, mine-clearance or inferno? Are they explicitly allowed or forbidden? Does it factor in if those types are used by different kinds of units - tanks for example? Would certain clans see the matter differently? (I could see the pre-invasion Falcons or Jaguars seeing all of that as dezgra, but I'm less certain about the Horses or Star Adders)

What's your opinion on the matter?

[AlphaMirage]

Beyond NARC and Semi-Guided all alternate munitions should be viable as they only use an individual machine.

The rules for Zellbrigen are pretty well stated out in Total Warfare. I think using Smoke to break LOS would be treated as a demerit like any other concealment but not a violation but only if it blocked LOS. Thunder wouldn't even necessarily be a violation if it was declared and wasn't deployed prior to entering the Circle of Equals to set up a trap.

Zellbrigen doesn't apply to tanks so Clan armored forces don't have to follow it and Inner Sphere armor aren't treated honorably either and can be destroyed with NARC, Semi-Guided LRM/Mortars and Guided Artillery with impunity.

[Jellico]

Swarm is Clantech (ex SLDF) compatible. Just be very careful.

[Gorgon]

Good to know. So as often, the Clans can use all the nice toys but may have think twice on when and how to employ them. At least when fighting other Clans in a traditional manner.


Thank you!

[GreekFire]

If you need a concrete example, Aidan uses Thunder during a Trial of Refusal that he successfully wins. No one bats an eye.

[Metallgewitter]

Also worth of note: when Phelan and Natasha did their trial of position Natasha armed Phelan's Dire Wolf with Swarm LRM's so that Natasha was free to also fire on Phelan's opponents which is usually not allowed in a trial of position. For Clnanners victory usually excuses a lot unless you go full dezgra

[wantec]

Also worth of note: when Phelan and Natasha did their trial of position Natasha armed Phelan's Dire Wolf with Swarm LRM's so that Natasha was free to also fire on Phelan's opponents which is usually not allowed in a trial of position. For Clnanners victory usually excuses a lot unless you go full dezgra

I would call Natasha's ammo usage careful planning. She wanted/needed to get 4 kills, so she knew it would need to go to a full melee. When that's the case, no reason to avoid beneficial alternate ammo that could end up causing a melee.

[Gorgon]

That's what I've come to like about the Clans: everything about them is political, even when to bring which ton of ammo.

[Metallgewitter]

That's what I've come to like about the Clans: everything about them is political, even when to bring which ton of ammo.

And you can end every political discussion by simply socking your opponent in the face (after declaring a trial of course)

[Gorgon]

And you can end every political discussion by simply socking your opponent in the face (after declaring a trial of course)

It's like their society is made for a tabletop wargame!  ;D

[pokefan548]

Just going to come in from the sidelines and also say that it probably depends on the Clan in question. For Clan Wolf, the ends more or less justify the means as long as you don't go completely nuts. On the other hand, a particularly sticklerish Blood Spirit might cry foul and pitch a fit if someone shows up for a trial clearly expecting fairly major aspects of Zell to go out the window in a jiffy.

Every Clan has their tightwads, and there are some Clans that are much bigger tightwads than others on the whole.

[Metallgewitter]

Just going to come in from the sidelines and also say that it probably depends on the Clan in question. For Clan Wolf, the ends more or less justify the means as long as you don't go completely nuts. On the other hand, a particularly sticklerish Blood Spirit might cry foul and pitch a fit if someone shows up for a trial clearly expecting fairly major aspects of Zell to go out the window in a jiffy.

Every Clan has their tightwads, and there are some Clans that are much bigger tightwads than others on the whole.

Also worth of note is that some Clans have different views of Zellbrigen. In one book it is stated that the Hellions have "an irritating style of zellbriggen" Or take the Horses who bring vehicles into a fight. From what I understand is that melee attacks are a big no no in honor duels so I assume that kicking a vehicle might lead into a free for all brawl

[AlphaMirage]

Kicking a vehicle would only generate a melee with the horses probably and even then it might be iffy. The Hellions do a swarm attack with their Star (or Binary against Assaults I suppose) then bid to see who finishes their target off afterward.

[Metallgewitter]

Not sure. In one of the Jihad books there is a discussion betwen Wolf warriors that the Horses went full berserker mode when one of their vehicles were either kicked or broadsides with infernos

[HobbesHurlbut]

On the other hand, a particularly sticklerish Blood Spirit might cry foul and pitch a fit if someone shows up for a trial clearly expecting fairly major aspects of Zell to go out the window in a jiffy.

I mean Zell is thrown out of window when it comes to defending York.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I mean Zell is thrown out of window when it comes to defending York.

Yes, but they'll probably throw a fit because of how expensive Swarm missiles are.

[Hellraiser]

Kicking isn't against the rules at all.

It's just..... frowned on/distasteful.... etc.

Zell is broken by firing on someone else's target, like SLDF Lance-Group Fire.
Even then it's used at times.
Shared targeting, IE.  NARC,  Using a Spotter,  Artillery.... etc etc.
Again, all used at times if called on by officers above you.

[wantec]

Kicking isn't against the rules at all.

It's just..... frowned on/distasteful.... etc.

Zell is broken by firing on someone else's target, like SLDF Lance-Group Fire.
Even then it's used at times.
Shared targeting, IE.  NARC,  Using a Spotter,  Artillery.... etc etc.
Again, all used at times if called on by officers above you.

Total Warfare, in the back of the "Creating Scenarios" section has a section on zell and Clan honor levels. Those suggested rules have a limit of 3 dezgra points making a duel void. Those involve intentionally moving out of sight of an opponent, refusing to fire on an opponent with any weapon, and moving out of range of an opponent, any of those can earn 1 dezgra point (to a max of 1 per turn). Firing on your opponent can remove 1 dezgra point (to a min of 1 dezgra point). In those rules, physical attacks don't contribute to declaring a duel void, but different interpretations of clan honor determine whether or not a Clan warrior will use physical attacks. Some levels say never, some say if an enemy does it first that enemy can be physicalled, others say any physical attack makes everyone open season for physicals.

[Hellraiser]

Correct, and I forgot to note "avoiding" combat by hiding or moving out past Long range.

Kicking doesn't add Dezgra points.  But can be used based on honor level as you noted.