Question about bloodname trials

[wantec]

Just thought of something: if the duel is unaugmented can the looser also ask for a specific sort of weapon? Like for example "we fight with swords" or something like that? I read that the usual trials like a trial of grievance can be fought with almost any weapon available so I would assume this goes also for bloodright trials

No. The hunter picks the manner of the fight: augmented in war machines, on foot but augmented with hand-held weapons, or unagumented (only your body parts and clothes you're wearing). The hunted chooses the battlefield (time, place, & size of the circle of equals). These rules apply outside of bloodname contests, but sometimes include contests of skills other than just combat.

[Hellraiser]

on foot but augmented with hand-held weapons,

That's a thing?
Where is this from?
Do you have examples of where this was chosen?

[Colt Ward]

Well, there is talk of Falcons & knives in recent material . . . but the Scorpions have some . . . dance?  with whips IIRC, in FMWC.

[AlphaMirage]

I think the Scorpions dancing the scars were with the Zulfiqar sword but whips would make things interesting particularly since the Medusa is highly responsive.

[wantec]

In Aidan Pryde's first battle of his Trial of Bloodright they fought using only hunting knives and minimal clothing. Aiden then picked a certain forest at midnight. The other warrior, Lopar, used the knife to fashion a bunch of traps and sharpened sticks

[The Wobbly Guy]

Mentor, Blood House Leader........ either way it falls under "Preparation & Discussion".

Given Vlad & Cyrilla relationship, I would thinking speaking to your house leader is not difficult.


I'm just guessing but I feel like each blood house wouldn't have more than a "battalion" of total bodies at any time.
Probably more like a company & a half.  (Infantry figures, not Mechs)

Its 25 bloodnamed, I doubt a blood house could afford to run all 25 bloodname trials w/o repeat participants if some disaster took out all 25 at once.

For smaller bloodhouses, i doubt they can even dig up 32 competitors.

If a bloodhouse is only down to 2-3 active Bloodrights, chances are they have less than 32 active warriors. In that case, I expect the first round to be a bye for some (depnding on the draw), and no Grand Melee - anybody who is still an active warrior and not tested down/out gets a shot.

[Alan Grant]

I don't think that Bloodname Houses with that less than 5 bloodheritages are allowed to continue. I think they either have to improve that situation within some time period, or risk being deactivated (no new eligible cadets bred).

My evidence:

WoK p. 38: Bloodlines that fail to produce even mediocre warriors are abandoned.

P. 39: Occasionally a Bloodright or even an entire bloodname is deemed to have failed, paving the way for it to be eliminated.

P. 40: (referring to number of bloodheritages) it says some have been reduced to 20 or 15, while the poorest may have a bloodcount as low as 5. Through this method a handful of lines have ceased to exist.

P. 40: Abandoned bloodlines aren't destroyed, only an annihilation or abjurement can do that. They are dormant and may be reactivated.

Fastforward to the Wars of Reaving books and it notes that some bloodnames are dormant or of minor use and it puts an asterisk next to some bloodnames like Tseng, which have a bloodcount of elss than 5.


My conclusions:

Given all of the above, personally I believe that prior to the Wars of Reaving era, the Clan eugenics program saw a bloodcount of 5 as a kind of rock bottom. If you can't sustain at least that, if you lose 1 more and hit a bloodcount of 4. That's like the start of a death clock, as in that Bloodname House has about a generation to improve this situation. They don't bother reaving down a bloodcount of 3, 2, 1, that Bloodname House is basically on the cusp of being deactivated/abandoned. Meaning they'll stop breeding eligible cadets and within a generation or two that Bloodname House will just cease to exist. It's standing on that knife edge and needs to either needs to do well and gain in bloodcount through Trials of Propagation or the scientists deciding to reactivate it.

Considering also that among the Clans, the number 5 seems to be ever-present in everything, that makes a lot of sense to me. It's a bit arbitrary, but so is the Clan love of that number.

The Wars of Reaving era differs a bit. The book Wars of Reaving lays out the remaining bloodnames, noting those with bloodcounts of less than 5. Also generally noting that some other obscure bloodnames are still around, in limited use or dormant.

But I think that era and material should be viewed as a unique situation rather than a normal or new normal. The bloodname Tseng is a great example. It is one of the pillar Bloodnames of the Ghost Bears. It was specifically targeted by a DNA-targeted virus that killed many of its living members. That doesn't even get into all the warfare of this period that killed many warriors. In the interim, I suspect the Bloodcount was just reduced to less than 5 to reflect its living warrior population (so they didn't water down the quality of the bloodnamed Tseng warriors by basically just giving most of the living members a Bloodname). After 20-100 years the bloodcount probably shot back up and it resumed being a major Bloodname House with a high bloodcount.

[Metallgewitter]

So how can dormant bloodnames be reactivated again? From what I have seen is that there doesn't seem to be a ritual or trial specifically mentioned for this. Unless it is somehow covered with a trial of propagation. Though I could also see any Khan who decides "Reactivate bloodname Jones" might have to go through some serious trials or make concessions like "If they don't perform well we reave them from the repository completely" After all from what I understand is that dormant bloodlines are not destroyed but simply "lie in cold storage"

[wantec]

One piece that I really like is from the WizKids fiction part of their website. It's an article titled, "Narrow Bloodlines: A Look at the Great Reavings, Then and Now" and it can be found on the downloads page of this website in the Dark Age section under the link title "3132-3134 INN" or at this link http://bg.battletech.com/download/DarkAge_3132-3134_INN.pdf

In general it covers normal bloodheritage Trials of Reaving (not the Wars of Reaving methods), Trials of Propagation (to increase the bloodheritage count by 1), and Trials of Founding (for new bloodnames).

So how can dormant bloodnames be reactivated again? From what I have seen is that there doesn't seem to be a ritual or trial specifically mentioned for this. Unless it is somehow covered with a trial of propagation. Though I could also see any Khan who decides "Reactivate bloodname Jones" might have to go through some serious trials or make concessions like "If they don't perform well we reave them from the repository completely" After all from what I understand is that dormant bloodlines are not destroyed but simply "lie in cold storage"

In the article above there's a brief mention of the Horses shifting some less effective bloodlines over to their new Tankwarrior phenotype which is one way to reactive a line. There's also lots of lines that have low sibko production, they don't produce great warriors, but seem to produce enough good ones to stay active. It's tough for a line to truly go dormant because for that to happen, every Clan that has the right to use that DNA must stop producing warriors. As long as at least one clan is producing warriors, then the line doesn't need to be reactivated. If no one is making warriors where the genemother is of that line then it would need some kind of long-term plan to begin production again. Another possibility is if there are warriors where the genefather is of that line, you could do something similar to the Trial of propagation/Trial of Founding  to increase the count.

At the same time, the Clans have the mindset to not waste resources. If a certain line produces good warriors, but there are no bloodheritages for that line, just use that DNA as the genefather.

[Colt Ward]

So how can dormant bloodnames be reactivated again? From what I have seen is that there doesn't seem to be a ritual or trial specifically mentioned for this. Unless it is somehow covered with a trial of propagation. Though I could also see any Khan who decides "Reactivate bloodname Jones" might have to go through some serious trials or make concessions like "If they don't perform well we reave them from the repository completely" After all from what I understand is that dormant bloodlines are not destroyed but simply "lie in cold storage"

Except sometimes the Khan deactivates things- consider Conner Ward's Bloodheritage was left vacant after his actions with the Red Corsair.

[Alan Grant]

So how can dormant bloodnames be reactivated again? From what I have seen is that there doesn't seem to be a ritual or trial specifically mentioned for this. Unless it is somehow covered with a trial of propagation. Though I could also see any Khan who decides "Reactivate bloodname Jones" might have to go through some serious trials or make concessions like "If they don't perform well we reave them from the repository completely" After all from what I understand is that dormant bloodlines are not destroyed but simply "lie in cold storage"

We don't know the exact procedure. Canon materials don't address this specific scenario. They do talk about a Trial of Propagation as you pointed out, but that is merely increasing the bloodcount of an existing Bloodname House, which would have living members to play the politics and fight the Trial if there is one.

I would speculate that the situation may be similar. All you need are the political ingredients (aka scientists say we need this for genetic diversity and also lay out reasons why they think the Bloodname House could produce successful warriors, and/or the dormant House gains a champion who would like to see them given another chance) to make the case in the Clan Council or perhaps in the Clan Grand Council/Council of Clans. And enough warriors vote in favor.

In the event of a Trial of Refusal against the vote, you'd have warriors who voted for and against forming a force to fight it out.

I suspect this is genuinely quite rare. Dormant Bloodname Houses with no living members would have few, if any, supporters willing to expend political capital, resources, and perhaps even lives in a Trial. But we have seen it happen. In the aftermath of the Wars of Reaving the Coyotes brought back all the Bloodname Houses from the Blood Scandal that they had reaved generations prior. That's probably the biggest example I can think of.

We do also know that a number of bloodheritages were reactivated just prior to Operation Revival, on the condition that if the holders performed well it would stay that way. Most of those were deactivated when those warriors died. But we don't know if this was from any deactivated Bloodname Houses or just raising the Bloodcount of existing/active ones.

A similar situation exists just after the Refusal War. WoK page 40 says that the Crusader Wolves reactivated a block from the "hitherto ignored" Widowmaker lines. But it isn't clear if that means Bloodname Houses that were dormant. Or just pulling more genetic legacies off the shelf and putting them to use and also increasing the bloodcount of active Bloodname Houses within the Crusader Wolves.

[Metallgewitter]

To get back to my main topic question I flipped through the Dark fate novel and there ulric stated that while no Mechwarrior wanted to touch Adler Malthus bloodname there were still trials and in the end it went to an elemental (taman Malthus) So yes there are trials and even "real" trials and not perfuntionary trials for disgraced blood heritages.
And ulric also stated that he was eligable for bloodname trials but he waited for a specific one because of it's prestige. And as Phelan also states in that discussion good warriors competing for strong names while mediocre one comepte for rather weak ones it strengthens the hierarchy within a clan. And it can also sort out reckless warriors who try to increase their prestige with risky actions.

There was also the mention of bloodname trial or rather the match up of differernt phenotypes. Phelan's fight against his second Elemental opponent mentions that the elemental had fought unaugmented against two mechwarriors and a fighter pilot. The fighter pilot died while the two Mechwarriors were hospitalized. just shows that being a fighter pilot makes tials in non fighter bloodname trials hard as hell.

Also I think we had this discussion before but what about tankers? Clan Hell's Horses has a lot of tankers and from what I remember tank commanders are usually those who can have bloodnames. if they fight augmented against say an elemental how might such a trial look like? If the elemental gets the choice of the battlefield I would say use a heavily forested area and the vehicle is basically useless

[Alan Grant]

Also I think we had this discussion before but what about tankers? Clan Hell's Horses has a lot of tankers and from what I remember tank commanders are usually those who can have bloodnames. if they fight augmented against say an elemental how might such a trial look like? If the elemental gets the choice of the battlefield I would say use a heavily forested area and the vehicle is basically useless

First off, tankers with bloodnames actually isn't that common (based on canon evidence). Among the Hell's Horses tankers and infantry are warriors who failed their first Trial of Position and were relegated to a lesser class of a equipment. So they are kinda seen as second-rung warriors. Insofar as I know, we've never seen a tanker or conventional infantryman command a Hell's Horses cluster, Galaxy or occupy a position of senior leadership such as Khan.

Even in the more recent eras (Dark Age onward), which introduces the TankWarrior. You have sibkos specifically being bred to be tankers from the start. Canon sources tell us that few tankwarriors achieved a rank higher than Star Captain, earn a bloodname, or occupied higher office. It also notes that the discrimination against vehicle warriors is still very present and real, even in the Horses. The whole Tankwarrior concept was deemed to be somewhat lackluster. It seems to continue but has proven to be somewhat disappointing and really hasn't developed much of a distinctive phenotype. I suspect alongside the tankwarriors you still have a majority of the Horses' Tank Corps being warriors who failed their first ToP and were relegated to vehicles.

All that being said, let's shift to what such a Trial might actually look like, and how it might be regulated.

As for The Trials of Bloodright themselves, you just need a vehicle that can be managed by a crew of 1, or modified to do so. We have canon evidence that this can be done. A Ghost Bear Galaxy Commander named Alexandr in FM: Warden Clans as described as being quite impressive and hints that he may even take a captured Athena into a Jorgensson Grand Melee if one-man controls can be rigged. Then by FM: Updates, set years later, he's bloodnamed. It's not conclusive, but this implies he resolved the technical challenges and won. Against an elemental some of the lighter vehicles are better matchups. I can see some Zoryas, Mithras, Asshurs appearing in this role a lot (Other good examples out there, I'm naming vehicles that are common among the Clans and have been around a long time). Possibly with some weapons deactivated to better match the firepower of an elemental.

I can absolutely see an elemental choosing to fight in rough terrain. But there has to be a line somewhere, where an objection would be raised. A completely dense forest (zero paths, zero roads) that allows for zero vehicle movement, gets a red flag, a Neg and a "Select a different battlefield" from the Bloodname House Leader running the show.

Same with an elemental declaring "let's fight on the hull on a space station." Unless that vehicle has the Sealed equipment, that's instant death for the crew while the elemental survives in his spaceworthy battle armor.

A hovercraft warrior getting the venue and saying "on the surface of the ocean" to his elemental opponent. The hovercraft is zipping around the water. The elemental steps off the hovering dropships' ramp and instantly sinks to the ocean floor. Neg.

Some common sense is required here that conforms with the Clan sense of fair play and the concept of actually earning honor and glory via winning a battle. A forest with roads and some fields? Sure. An urban environment with roads and some large empty parking lots? Sure. Paths that a vehicle can use. That makes sense. The elemental can absolutely exploit the environment to try to ambush or outflank the vehicle, but there's still the potential for a good fight.

The person running the Trial, usually the Bloodname House Leader, would be able to veto any silly too exploitive ideas. A venue that gives the warrior choosing it an edge or advantage is fine. But an instant "Gotcha, I win" just by choice of venue is not acceptable.

I suspect to avoid a lot of this nonsense, there are actually a lot of rules and regs surrounding a Trial of Bloodright (remember Clan warfare is very ritualized in its strict form, which a Trial of Bloodright would generally adhere to), that are shared with the participants in writing well beforehand. Not unlike how a professional athlete is expected to know the rules of their chosen sport. Even then the Bloodname House Leader can step in like a referee should anyone cough up something too objectionable.

[wantec]

You did hit on one thing, that the House Leader would be in a position to force changes/modifications that would make the battle more fair. Going back to Phelan, against the Elemental he fought in a Mercury instead of his regular Mech. Similar when fighting the aerospace pilot, he used a heavier Nova.

Going back to the hovercraft in the ocean vs an Elemental, there are Undine Battle Armor suits that have UMUs. And reading the fluff of the Elemental BA in TRO3058U, there were earlier versions of the Gnome, Sylph, Salamander, and Undine. We saw the Gnome's predecessor, the Rhino in TRO Golden Century. A water-based Battle Armor suit that had some kind of laser and torpedoes would be horrible for a hovercraft, since the BA could hit it from under the water and the hovercraft couldn't fire back

[Colt Ward]

As for The Trials of Bloodright themselves, you just need a vehicle that can be managed by a crew of 1, or modified to do so. We have canon evidence that this can be done. A Ghost Bear Galaxy Commander named Alexandr in FM: Warden Clans as described as being quite impressive and hints that he may even take a captured Athena into a Jorgensson Grand Melee if one-man controls can be rigged. Then by FM: Updates, set years later, he's bloodnamed. It's not conclusive, but this implies he resolved the technical challenges and won.

He did, check IIRC FMU

[Alan Grant]

You did hit on one thing, that the House Leader would be in a position to force changes/modifications that would make the battle more fair. Going back to Phelan, against the Elemental he fought in a Mercury instead of his regular Mech. Similar when fighting the aerospace pilot, he used a heavier Nova.

Going back to the hovercraft in the ocean vs an Elemental, there are Undine Battle Armor suits that have UMUs. And reading the fluff of the Elemental BA in TRO3058U, there were earlier versions of the Gnome, Sylph, Salamander, and Undine. We saw the Gnome's predecessor, the Rhino in TRO Golden Century. A water-based Battle Armor suit that had some kind of laser and torpedoes would be horrible for a hovercraft, since the BA could hit it from under the water and the hovercraft couldn't fire back

Fair points. I wasn't thinking about any of that. I was just picturing a standard elemental in standard Elemental armor. No UMUs, no Undines nothing. Elemental sinks to the bottom of the ocean without a shot fired and drowns, and how such a venue selection would represent a ridiculousness that no Trial of Bloodright would tolerate.

And I'm trying to draw a connection line between that kind of logic, and how they wouldn't tolerate plunking a vehicle in a completely impassable spot and let the Elemental exploit some "gotcha" venue to insta-win.

They want these fights to be good fights, cleverness is fine, but good fights, in which the victor has showered themselves in glory by winning a good, tough fight. The people managing the Trial of Bloodright have the responsibility to ensure what happens and that there's nothing hanging over the entire affair that casts doubt on the validity of the Trial.

[Metallgewitter]

Kinda have to necro this thread as I thought of another question in regards to trials.: the Clans have the absorption trial when one Clan is deemed weak and open up for absorption. so far every granted trial was succesful. But what if the defending Clan wins? Would that redeem themselves in the eyes of the other Clans and what price would the aggressor have to pay? Because there is one interesting bit about Clan trials that seem to be used very sparingly: the option of asking for a reward (is that the right term?) if the defender wins. I know that option exists (though I don't know what the correct Clan term is) but that it is rarely used. Why is that? I get this for perfunctary trials where the outcome is "fixed" but what about other trials? Or is simply winning enough?

[Colt Ward]

While we have only seen a few successful Trials of Absorption, we know it has been threated a couple times since fiction has fleshed out the Clans and would likely have happened before- such as after the Mongoose were wrecked.  Asa Taney made some hints as part of his build up to the Tantrum, but Marthe & Vlad turned it on him saying a Invader could never be absorbed, but they might take in a Homie.

[Alan Grant]

Kinda have to necro this thread as I thought of another question in regards to trials.: the Clans have the absorption trial when one Clan is deemed weak and open up for absorption. so far every granted trial was succesful. But what if the defending Clan wins? Would that redeem themselves in the eyes of the other Clans and what price would the aggressor have to pay? Because there is one interesting bit about Clan trials that seem to be used very sparingly: the option of asking for a reward (is that the right term?) if the defender wins. I know that option exists (though I don't know what the correct Clan term is) but that it is rarely used. Why is that? I get this for perfunctary trials where the outcome is "fixed" but what about other trials? Or is simply winning enough?

For a Trial of Absorption, just winning is enough. But it's also possible that the victors might scoop up a lot of the defeated warriors and equipment off the battlefield(s) as isorla.

But that's still a big deal to win such a thing. Trials of Absorption are rare and come about because most of the Clans agreed to do it. That doesn't happen easily or lightly. You've proven a lot of people wrong by winning.

Keep in mind often this is a lot of Clans voting to absorb, and also voting one Clan to be the absorbing Clan. So even if Clan Smoke Jaguar is the Clan selected to absorb Clan Mongoose for example. Clan Smoke Jaguar is just the fighting Clan of a whole voting block of Clans that voted for Absorption. You referred to the "aggressor" well technically, politically, a lot of Clans were the aggressors, enough to initiate the Trial.

There is an argument to be made that the outcome of the Refusal War, which became a de facto Absorption, is in fact a representative example of a Clan actually winning this kind of thing. Vlad fought for the Wolves to remain a Clan. He won, he was granted that.

In the aftermath of that, the new Clan Wolf under Vlad Ward was very weak for a while (militarily). But by and large the rest of the Clans left them be (as well as the dramatically weakened Falcons). They didn't swoop in to try and finish them off. Though the Hellions tried the initiate absorption votes for both, the fact that those political efforts failed suggest to me that the other Clans thought it inappropriate at that stage. Though the more canon official reason is that the Falcons and Wolves supported each other's anti-Absorption efforts in the Grand Council.

I think that's what winning garners you, some respect and some time. You've proven the consensus wrong, so you are given the breathing room you need to regain your strength. It's not that different than granting the victorious warrior on the battlefield a chance to heal from their wounds before they have to fight again. But Vlad Ward wasn't even content with that, he organized a strike against the Smoke Jaguars as soon as possible to prove the Wolves still had teeth. This further cemented the idea that the Wolves had a right to exist in the minds of the Grand Council Khans.

In theory, another outcome might be a Clan deciding to be your protector for a while. Sorta like how the Star Adders protected the Stone Lions for a while so the new Clan had the breathing room to get itself together. No guarantee of that happening I think, but having survived a Trial of Absorption, suddenly stacking up some powerful allies, even those willing to fight to secure your right to exist as a Clan for a while, that makes a lot of sense to me. That might be pure generosity, the act of building a new/renewed political ally, or a smack in the face of a political enemy who was strongly for the absorption, or even negotiated (i.e. fight for us for a while and we'll give you X, Y and Z in return).

After the Refusal War, that's what the Wolves and Falcons kinda did politically. They provided some political power to each other by defending each other's right to exist in the face of new Absorption arguments in the Grand Council, but also showed themselves to be potential new allies to each other. That changed the whole calculus on evaluating their strength, politically and militarily, and bought them time I think.

[wantec]

Clans Widowmaker, Mongoose, and Burrock all faced formal Trials of Absorption approved by the Grand Council and were defeated. After defeating Ulric in the Refusal War, the Jade Falcons turned that into a defacto Trial of Absorption. But then everything Vlad did effectively nullified that defacto Absorption. After the Absorption of the Burrocks was awarded to the Adders instead of the Spirits, the Spirits launched their own unauthorized absorption that was rebuffed.

During the Wars of Reaving the Goliath Scorpions bargained a Trial of Absorption of the remains of Clan Ice Hellion. A similar offer was made to the much smaller remains of the Fire Mandrills on Dagda. The Viper saKhan objected in the next Grand Council session to the Hellion Absorption (it had been previously ordered to 3 other clans), but it was eventually approved by the council. The Blood Spirits were technically absorbed by the Adders, but it was in-effect an annihilation.

In addition, over the clans history multiple Trials of Absorption have been put to a vote, and many failed the vote. Typically by the time the formal Trial is approved, the odds are enough against the target to ensure a win while still making it a challenge.

[Metallgewitter]

Thanks for the input. I always wondered how a failed absorption would look like. The case with the Falcons and Wolves wasn't a real absorbtion imho but rather a measure to look stronger after such a brutal blood letting. After all the Falcons had lost a lot of manpower and were also embarassed by their defeat against the Kell Hounds who fought alongside Phelan's Wolves on Morges. And in terms of the later trieed absorbtion by that point the Wolves and Falcons had shown that they still had some bite left in them. Just imagine if a trial of annihilation is issued and the defender wins. What then? Are those that declared the trial made dezgra? After all annihilation is the most brutal trial in the clan's political playbook

[Colt Ward]

Which is the point, all the failed 'Trials' of Absorption were defeated before hand in the Grand Council.  The one that really could have been contested was the Burrock Aborption, they were not absorbed because they were weak but because their leadership was corrupt.  This lead to the troops to surrendering to the Adders in many cases and especially when the Spirits got involved.

[Alan Grant]

I think you are conceptualizing the nature of victory wrong in these extreme cases.

MULTIPLE Clans, the entire Grand Council, votes to abjure or annihilate a Clan.

They then task one Clan to carry it out.

I don't think the target Clan can actually win on the battlefield alone. The only reason the Jade Falcon versus Wolf thing went differently was because it was truly just the Falcons versus Wolves running this de fact absorption.

In all the other cases, it's all of those Clans who voted in favor.

So let's just say for sake of discussion that a Trial of Absorption, Annihilation or Abjurment is declared. And one Clan is tasked to carry it out.

If that Clan fails to defeat the target Clan in battle. It doesn't really matter. They are out. They've already been kicked out of the club. It's just a matter of what happens next. There's a decent chance they just task yet another Clan, or maybe even multiple Clans, to finish it. Or they cut all political ties all together and that Clan in effect becomes a separate society. In the eyes of proper Clan society they are akin to bandits. They don't get a seat at the Grand Council, they lose all legitimacy.

When the Nova Cats were abjured, there was no victory to be won. They were technically given a period of time to leave, but in reality what happened was nobody honored that, every Clan tore into the Nova Cats touman and enclaves wherever they were. There wasn't Zell honored, nothing. Even if a specific Nova Cat unit won a victory, that lasted until the next wave of aggressors appeared to attack them.

If the Star Adders had been defeated on the battlefield by the Burrocks. Unless they can somehow spin things around politically, the Burrocks are still a target. There is a very good chance the Grand Council will simply declare another Clan to continue the absorption. The Burrocks only chance really is to somehow convince the Grand Council that the Trial outcome AND the vote were in the wrong. That the Burrocks not only were victorious on the battlefield, but that the Grand Council "really ought to see this new evidence that proves the Burrocks deserve a new vote on the issue of Absorption."

So unless you can beat EVERY other Clan out there militarily, or turn the tide politically.... there is no such thing as winning these kind of Trials. These are more tools of politics than Trials of the battlefield.

If you lose the vote, you've already lost the outcome. Unless you somehow convince the other Clans, politically, to reverse that decision. Otherwise, on the conservative end of the spectrum, if they need to vote to absorb/adjure/annihilate again, conservative view on this, they spend a little time contemplating the situation. MAYBE they let you have an audience before the Grand Council to argue why that vote was in the wrong, maybe you've earned a chance to come in and argue your case. Then the Grand Council votes to absorb/adjure/annihilate you again if you weren't persuasive enough.

None of the Trial types are "one and done" affairs. You can declare Trials of Possession, Grevience, Refusal, multiple times. You can vote to abjure, absorb or annihilate multiple times as well. So they just keep coming at you until you somehow convince them that the decision was wrong and that they should stop and accept/re-accept you as a Clan.

And no, there's no de facto punishment for the losers. The aggressive Clan just represented the interests of all the Clans who voted that way. There's no penalty. Except perhaps being perceived yourself as extremely weak if you lose such a Trial.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Didn't the remaining home clans gang up on the Steel Vipers near the end of the WoR? That was an Annihilation.

So we know that the surest way to survive absorption, abjuration, or annihilation is to run. To stay and try fighting off all the other clans is suicide.

[Metallgewitter]

Didn't the remaining home clans gang up on the Steel Vipers near the end of the WoR? That was an Annihilation.

So we know that the surest way to survive absorption, abjuration, or annihilation is to run. To stay and try fighting off all the other clans is suicide.

Coming from the height of the "taint" doctrine the Vipers showed they were tainted when Ilkhan Andrews shot Adder Khan N'buta in the face which was a clear violation as no Khan was supposed to carry a weapon in the council. Hence that Clan was declared tainted which in turn earned them annihilation and unlike other annihilations this was probbaly used as a test to see who is "pure" (so if you don't participate you are tainted probably) so everyone participated. And the Vipers did serious damage to all remaining clans but in essence what you say is right. Better run then fight. The Scorpions saw the writing on the wall and left behind a last ditch defense while the main body fled. Thoguh they also had a plan already which had simply be accelerated. The Wolverines also did the same they fled rather then duke it out with the Clans (of course they left a love message by turning the then Council building and blood chapels of several Clans into lovely craters. They should have slammed the McKenna's Pride into Strana Mechty as well just to add insult to inury)

[Hellraiser]

I don't think the target Clan can actually win on the battlefield alone. The only reason the Jade Falcon versus Wolf thing went differently was because it was truly just the Falcons versus Wolves running this de fact absorption.

So let's just say for sake of discussion that a Trial of Absorption, Annihilation or Abjurment is declared. And one Clan is tasked to carry it out.

There's a decent chance they just task yet another Clan, or maybe even multiple Clans, to finish it.

........

None of the Trial types are "one and done" affairs. You can declare Trials of Possession, Grevience, Refusal, multiple times. You can vote to abjure, absorb or annihilate multiple times as well. So they just keep coming at you until you somehow convince them that the decision was wrong and that they should stop and accept/re-accept you as a Clan.

And no, there's no de facto punishment for the losers. The aggressive Clan just represented the interests of all the Clans who voted that way. There's no penalty. Except perhaps being perceived yourself as extremely weak if you lose such a Trial.

Minor points.

1.  The Falcon Wolves issue wasn't any of those trials.
It was a charge against Ulric himself, who, as ilKhan/Khan, choose to defend w/ the entire Clan instead of a Star-Cluster-Galaxy, etc etc.
That decision was outside the norm.
The reason he did that was because he knew that the charge was SO heinous that even if he won, another clan would feel the need the raise the challenge again & again against him personally.

Point being, the Falcons got away w/ it because it was in the OZ away from the other Khans & also because they were essentially just claiming anyone & everyone as "bondsmen" which is legal.
The "truly iffy" part that doesn't get talked about, is all the garrison troops in the Wolf OZ & the Wolf Worlds being claimed as part of an "absorption".
Ulric claimed it was all of clan wolf attacking, but, in reality it was more like 5 Galaxies.  (4 Front + 1 Garrison)

The "absorption" really never happened, it was talked about on the Falcon Capital but really, Vlad shut it down before the Wolf OZ & Homeworlds got "behind it" for the most part.

Later IIRC, after they got back to Strana Mechty, they played out the whole "this is how it happened" for the Hall of Khans.
I can't imagine all the Wolf Worlds were repainting everything Jade Green in under 1 week from Trial End to Vlad's Bloodname?


2.
In some cases, they actually can't just keep challenging over & over.
For example, the trials for Omnimechs against Coyote were limited to each clan only getting 1 Trial per Year IIRC.
To keep piling on would have been seen as dishonorable.  Like killing civilians needlessly. 
Other clans look down on your & then you get called into question (Widowmakers).

[Alan Grant]

All fair points on the Refusal War stuff. That situation was extremely weird and unique. Ulric's decision to devote the entire Clan to the Trial did really change the nature of what was happening. I agree that given the distances involved a lot of this probably didn't get to the Grand Council until way after it had happened in the Inner Sphere. That means as a case study in what's normal/typical, it is not a great example.

Regarding the OmniMech Trials against the Coyotes. That was also a unique situation and was given a unique setup. The other Clans wanted the Coyotes to hand over the technology. The Coyotes refused, the Trial structure that resulted was a political compromise in the Grand Council. To create some structure around a chaotic situation the Grand Council decided to allow one Trial per year per Clan for Omni-tech. The Grand Council also voted in an IlKhan, Zenos Danforth to oversee the whole thing. So that didn't happen by some kind of established default, that was the Grand Council looking at the situation, negotiating and deciding how to turn chaos into order. That precedent then became useful when Battle Armor appeared and it provided a proven way of structuring Trials for that chaotic situation. Zenos Danforth was still the IlKhan at that point and so he just kept doing what he had been doing using the same playbook that had worked out well a few years earlier.

And perhaps the biggest lesson of all here is that the Clan Grand Council never really had much established tradition behind most of these big decision points in Clan history. At times, even with the established Trials laid down by Nicholas Kerensky, they really were just making it up as they went, figuring out each new crisis/situation as it unfolded.

But I hear your point that the Clans just can't keep challenging the same Trial over and over days apart. But with something on the scale of an Absorption/Abjurement/Annihilation, you can't tolerate/survive much more than one anyway. But I stand by my point. Even if you win the first one, some kind of Refusal of that vote fought out on a battlefield that you win, and hold off the apocalypse for 6 months or a year.. you better do something, change something... get the other Clans to back off and reverse politically...or you will be screwed next year when the same Clans conduct a new vote against you and send a fresh Clan against you. You can only hold off so many fresh Clans before your battered Clan is subdued. It takes too long to breed new warriors to survive that forever.

Or as others have been said, just run away. Recognize that this is all of Clan society saying you are done and that there may not be any way to salvage the situation and remain a legitimate Clan in the eyes of proper Clan society. Try to save your people from slaughter.