how are Combine katanas made?

[Mecha82]

Okay so I was wondering this silly thing. How does Combine make they katanas and from what materials because I can't image them replicating old Earth way of making those with same low quality materials considering how much better both of those are these days and they live in future on whole another planets with materials different to those on Earth.     

[Kos]

I dunno; better than a mall katana, rarely traditionally made, excepting family heirlooms. Probably neccesarrily mass produced like 19th century military sword, perhaps? I always figured, as they're mostly part of dress uniform in the DCMS officers got their swords from similar suppliers as their uniforms when they are commissioned if they don't bring a household blade. As per my OG ronin Mechwarrior character the households' sword sets were each paired with a household battlemech, as a set of arms to be brought together for service. So he rode a Phoenix Hawk with his family blades (and a shotgun) strapped down to the ejection kit. I always assumed the swords were gifts that came with the respective mechs 'from the Dragon', and thus were ancient family heirlooms at least a few centuries old...
That is all headcanon though. I assume a newly minted DCMS officer cadet would usually get needed swords from the same place they get their uniform; probably at bespoke shops that make a brisk trade of such in the vicinity of their military academy, or from their family.

[AlphaMirage]

I think it would depend,

Military Academy graduates that receive their daisho. Those might be hand-forged by some ominous sounding pseudo-religious organization, possibly even the Order of Five Pillars itself since they are responsible for all martial arts training and the cultural heritage of the Draconis Combine.

Other officers probably get mass produced ones that look pretty but aren't functional. DEST and The Otomo get functional ones that aren't necessarily pretty but are probably still mass produced.

[Mecha82]

Hmm I see. Well thank you for answers.

[Alan Grant]

Keep in mind vibrokatanas are a thing, used by DEST. They have proven useful against infantry but also notably against battle armor.

So you have the proper military weapon, likely factory produced, not much different than the factory production of a laser rifle. Then you have the ceremonial katana, and there are probably a few levels of quality there. From closer to mass produced, to the specialty shop delicately making them one at a time using more traditional methods.

I can easily imagine this being a whole thriving industry within the Combine. Like cars or watches in the real world.

[Kos]

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I like the idea of the Order making traditional blades for the Kuritas, and as  high status gifts for retainers, cool idea. Also I dig Alaans idea that it might be a bit of a status item trade. And also; yeah, as was said by someone, vibro-katanas are a (very cool) thing, so there has to be a fair bit of mass production of both ceremonial and battle swords...all very cool ideas to work with.

I just remembered a cousin who was a (Canadian, Royal) highlander; he had to get the whole uniform; (bearskin hat, jacket, kilt et al, from a specialty supplier all tailored and bespoke, the sword I'm pretty sure was ceremonial and provided straight from the armoury..? Have to ask him some time...

Anyway; cool question got me thinking.  :thumbsup:

[Colt Ward]

I think it might go the route of any other uniform item . . . you can get issue of course, but you can ALSO go to a specialty shop for something customized IF you are going to spend that money.  It would still need to meet regulations- so no carrying a custom claymore instead of a katana FREX- but you could have something crafted in traditional methods/materials, or perhaps hammered out from scrap from your first kill . . . all comes down to how much you can pay.

[nckestrel]

There were probably more Samurai in Japan than there are MechWarriors in the entire DCMS. If you get to infantry officers, perhaps some drop in quality, but I can't imagine the resources of the entire Draconis Combine would be stretched in making katanas for MechWarriors.

[glitterboy2098]

I think it would depend,

Military Academy graduates that receive their daisho. Those might be hand-forged by some ominous sounding pseudo-religious organization, possibly even the Order of Five Pillars itself since they are responsible for all martial arts training and the cultural heritage of the Draconis Combine.

Other officers probably get mass produced ones that look pretty but aren't functional. DEST and The Otomo get functional ones that aren't necessarily pretty but are probably still mass produced.

i'd also imagine there are families within the combine that have retained or redeveloped the arts of traditional sword making as well, not just O5P. and anyone with sufficent economic means could commission a sword to be made, or purchase one from the families already made examples.

there may well be some families which have an ancestral blade that has been passed down generations as well.

all of which actually parrarells the ww2 japan that the writers were inspired by for the game. most officers got low quality mass produced stamped metal blades, but some had ancestral blades which they used instead, some took ancestral hilts and fitted their government issue blades to, some fitted ancestral blades of lesser note to government issue hilts, and some of the more well off officers comissioned new blades from the handful of traditional bladesmiths that were still around.

(i'm sad to say that i find that knowledge a bit sad, given how the US military destroyed so many swords after ww2, not making a distinction between the mass produced crap and the actual historical relics. that my own great grandfather was part of that effort saddens me a little.)

[AlphaMirage]

This is the Combine though, people of 'economic means' possess swords already. Also a cottage industry of unlicensed 'weapons production' might get you visited by the local Friendly Persuaders. If it receives the Order's blessing though as a 'craft of cultural significance' it would be allowed.

[Weirdo]

There's probably a thriving industry in certain Lyran and Davion border worlds making Katanas spanning the entire range of quality, for smuggling and illicit sale in the Combine. :)

[paladin2019]

I assume a newly minted DCMS officer cadet would usually get needed swords from the same place they get their uniform; probably at bespoke shops that make a brisk trade of such in the vicinity of their military academy, or from their family.

Tiffany cavalry sabers  ;)

[Minemech]

There were probably more Samurai in Japan than there are MechWarriors in the entire DCMS. If you get to infantry officers, perhaps some drop in quality, but I can't imagine the resources of the entire Draconis Combine would be stretched in making katanas for MechWarriors.

 There is no probably there. During the Boshin War, Satsuma probably fielded more samurai than the DCMS has mechwarriors.

[butchbird]

One more comment in relation  to WW2.

It wouldn't be impossible that, just like the 20th century imperial japan with which it shares much, the combine would produce hosts of cheap katanas for the mass of infantry and "militia"(I don't remember how the non-DCMS troops are considered/integrated) whom wouldn't have access to the quality stuff.

For many officers, lobbing off prisoners heads was standard "thoughening up" training. Few of them desire to talk of those times, but those who did said that it was deaply unpleasant and disturbing for all who had to partake. This disclaimer having been said, the fact is that the cheap katanas that they used easily broke if bended and were utterly useless after about a hundred decapitation. That probably means millions of katanas for kentares.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Katana quality would depend on who is getting them

Descendant of noble samurai family who will be piloting ancestral SLDF Atlas would get a sword made by a guy called Hattori Hanzō (服部韓蔵)

OTOH some random poor slob who will be riding Savannah Master bought from Discount Dan's would be receiving something you get as a free bonus for buying a set of steak knives

[glitterboy2098]

This is the Combine though, people of 'economic means' possess swords already. Also a cottage industry of unlicensed 'weapons production' might get you visited by the local Friendly Persuaders. If it receives the Order's blessing though as a 'craft of cultural significance' it would be allowed.

i wasn't suggesting unlicensed producers, just ones that were legal but not intergrated into one of the government agencies. presumably O5P would oversee their licensing and ensure they weren't selling onto a black market, but it seems likely that traditionally made swords would be the sort of niche private industry that would do well in the combine.

and while ancestral blade might get handed down, population growth would mean that ever so often you'd get a family that has more sons (or daughters) in the military than they have blades to hand down. especially if any blades were lost with a family member during battle on some distant world. and even if you received an ancestral blade, you might still want to commission a good quality new one for your field use, so you can leave the treasured family relic somewhere safe and not risk losing it in battle on some distant world.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I sincerely doubt anyone off of Terra is making katanas using tamahagane iron sands, smithed using the exact same hand-done traditional methods used by swordsmiths of Japan going back centuries, in accordance with 21st century Japanese laws regulating the method of production of what are, essentially, art swords that, at times, are used for martial arts practice.  Also, folded tamahagane swords are often not as strong as monosteel swords of more modern steel alloys.

Sarna lists the price of a katana at 250 C-Bills.  In another thread, we've been discussing the value of a C-Bill, which seems to vary anywhere from $2-11 USD, depending on source and conversion.  Wakizashis are priced at 150 C-Bills.

A modern "gendaito" sword out of Japan, whether katana or wakizashi starts in the ballpark of around $2000-2500 USD.  That's one basically meant as a cutting practice weapon for students of Japanese sword arts.  More artistic swords can easily break $30 thousand dollars.  And we're not talking about antiques yet.

Antique swords can vary wildly in price, depending on pedigree of the sword, and where it's being sold.  A lower-quality antique with poor pedigree in rough shape that looks like it's more made of rust than metal might only run you $100, but a quality antique can easly fetch tens of thousands as well.

Now...getting into Japanese-type swords made by non-Japanese smiths...prices on these also vary wildly, depending on steel type, quality of sword, etc.  I recently had a wakizashi made from what's essentially a "mass produced" 1060 steel wakizashi blade with fittings to my specs, for around $150 USD.  It's not as fancy as a more expensive sword, but it's still decent, though some may complain about the balance not being perfect, etc.

So, putting that all together, I'd probably treat the book katana and wakizashi as the more fancy, higher-end versions of the swords, and treat the cheaper versions as regular swords, or even daggers for smaller wakizashi.

Which reminds me...if I recall correctly, it's the full daisho that's restricted in the Combine, with the wakizashi specifically being the more proscribed sword, right?  I find that funny, since historically, it was the other way around - only the samurai class could carry katanas, but wakizashi up to around an 18" blade were considered legal for other castes to carry for self defense, and were commonly carried by merchants or other non-samurai during the Edo period.

[Kos]

I sincerely doubt anyone off of Terra is making katanas using tamahagane iron sands, smithed using the exact same hand-done traditional methods used by swordsmiths of Japan going back centuries, in accordance with 21st century Japanese laws regulating the method of production of what are, essentially, art swords that, at times, are used for martial arts practice.  Also, folded tamahagane swords are often not as strong as monosteel swords of more modern alloys...

All totally good points, and true.  But then again because  Battletech is a space opera, 'space is big', wave my hands at 'scientific magazines' ...

I don't think it's totally impossible; there has to be whole other planets with coeincidently similarly poor quality iron..? Some swordmakers from ancient Terra must have spread or spread their students out into space. Oot5P..? I could see them keeping the craft alive, sure. Another (purely speculative) thought; maybe 31st century sword makers aren't traditional at all but now lack the historical perspective to realize it..? And last; maybe they don't make traditional Japanese swords at all: They conciously make superior traditional Draconian swords adapted from the Japanese swords they were inspired by and meant to honour, from whatever poor iron ore they had to use on Drac worlds?

Anyway, not disagreeing really; just thinking around it.

[nerd]

I'd think there would be a cottage industry supported the DCMS making very high quality Daisho sets. It's the kind of product that would have esteem for the owners. While a newly promoted officer may not have the sword of his forbearers, but a master-crafted one? He can built a legend off that. Kensai Kami honor graduates, or those awarded certain medals, could also find an heirloom quality set made for them as a reward.

Currently, US ceremonial swords start at around $370. These are straight-up non-sharpened for ceremony work. An actual sword costs about as much, but has a different workmanship, and less shiny parts.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I sincerely doubt anyone off of Terra is making katanas using tamahagane iron sands, smithed using the exact same hand-done traditional methods used by swordsmiths of Japan going back centuries, in accordance with 21st century Japanese laws regulating the method of production of what are, essentially, art swords that, at times, are used for martial arts practice.  Also, folded tamahagane swords are often not as strong as monosteel swords of more modern steel alloys.

The Combine is functionally what you get when a bunch of otaku form an interstellar empire based an understanding of Japan that they got from watching anime.  The entire nation is *very* hooked on tradition.  It would not be surprising if they rigidly insisted that katanas had to be hand-crafted using the traditional iron sands and folding method.

[tassa_kay]

I just randomly and inexplicably found the answer to your original question, OP.

"In the Draconis Combine, swordsmiths still practice the ancient Japanese art," Manas Amirault said, half-cryptically. "Although modern alloys have long superseded the necessity, they make sword blades by beating together layers of hard but durable steel with a softer but very durable steel. In this way they forge blades of a sharpness and toughness it took centuries for science to equal."

I think you called this one right, Ogre.

[Kos]

Huh...now we to know; They are a Draconian thing 'equal through science' to the ancient traditional Japanese blades they're based on. Very cool. Cheers Tassa Kay.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I could swear one of the older books basically said that one of the early coordinators was like "We're not doing cheap mass-production crap swords" and ordered that daisho be made through traditional methods.  Not sure where, but I'll see if I can dig it up.

[glitterboy2098]

Huh...now we to know; They are a Draconian thing 'equal through science' to the ancient traditional Japanese blades they're based on. Very cool. Cheers Tassa Kay.

actually you are turning it round. it isn't 'equal to science", it is "In this way they forge blades of a sharpness and toughness it took centuries for science to equal.", basically saying that traditional japanese methods produce products using what are effectively medieval techniques, products that are just as good as those produced using much more advanced industry

[Arkansas Warrior]

I could swear one of the older books basically said that one of the early coordinators was like "We're not doing cheap mass-production crap swords" and ordered that daisho be made through traditional methods.  Not sure where, but I'll see if I can dig it up.

Couldn’t find anything like that in the old House Kurita Sourcebook, the newer Handbook House Kurita, or FM:DC (though that’s hardcopy, and I may have missed it).  Also checked my Battlecorps pdfs of Hearts of Chaos and Black Dragon, no luck.  Maybe Wolves on the Border, but I don’t have a searchable copy of that.

[Pat Payne]

I sincerely doubt anyone off of Terra is making katanas using tamahagane iron sands, smithed using the exact same hand-done traditional methods used by swordsmiths of Japan going back centuries, in accordance with 21st century Japanese laws regulating the method of production of what are, essentially, art swords that, at times, are used for martial arts practice.  Also, folded tamahagane swords are often not as strong as monosteel swords of more modern steel alloys.

Because tradition, probably? The Combine puts a lot of stock in Japanese tradition so I could totally see them making swords in the old way (probably not with tamagahane though, because that was crap iron and was used because that's all Japan had access to -- the folding of the metal during forging was a means of compensating for the poor-quality ore)

Which reminds me...if I recall correctly, it's the full daisho that's restricted in the Combine, with the wakizashi specifically being the more proscribed sword, right?  I find that funny, since historically, it was the other way around - only the samurai class could carry katanas, but wakizashi up to around an 18" blade were considered legal for other castes to carry for self defense, and were commonly carried by merchants or other non-samurai during the Edo period.

The restriction could be a sumptuary law, as the daisho is a sign of samurai, and by extension, officers in the DCMS. It might have been instituted as a "stolen valor" kind of thing. Though you do have a point, in as lock-down as the Combine is, you'd think they'd want to have as disarmed a populace as possible and so nobody without permission should logically be carrying a long bar of razor-sharp steel without attracting official attention...

[paladin2019]

Bigger weapon = harder to conceal <shrug>

Also, bigger weapon looks better on wall or console in the house. And is harder to conceal so they know when it leaves the house.

[idea weenie]

Because tradition, probably? The Combine puts a lot of stock in Japanese tradition so I could totally see them making swords in the old way (probably not with tamagahane though, because that was crap iron and was used because that's all Japan had access to -- the folding of the metal during forging was a means of compensating for the poor-quality ore)

The restriction could be a sumptuary law, as the daisho is a sign of samurai, and by extension, officers in the DCMS. It might have been instituted as a "stolen valor" kind of thing. Though you do have a point, in as lock-down as the Combine is, you'd think they'd want to have as disarmed a populace as possible and so nobody without permission should logically be carrying a long bar of razor-sharp steel without attracting official attention...

I'd wonder if only nobles are allowed to carry a daisho openly, as a symbol of their authority.  If the person giving orders has a blade and you do not, you are likely supposed to do what they say.  If two people with daishos meet, they will glance at the other's blade to know who is the social superior and go from there.  So some nobles might get a blade for military service, others get a blade for economic service, others from their family, etc.

If you are allowed to carry a daisho, then there is the potential for you to be allowed to carry a katana.  Some might be made in a factory for maximum effectiveness, some might be made in the traditional method for cultural show, and a few might be both to symbolize military and cultural authority.  Various stamps on the blade, colors and knots used on the sword as a whole, designs on and color of the scabbard, all would give clues to the person's social rank and the category of the blade.

Police would still be allowed to carry pistols, though if a commoner policeman tries to arrest a noble with a daisho it would have to be done gently/properly (i.e. get another noble to help them out).  If the commoner policeman is trying to defend himself, then they better make sure everything is done correctly if they have to shoot the guy with a sword.

[Fallen_Raven]

There's bound to be some people who have super swords made out of sci-fi metals, but the primary use of a katana is a badge of office with a secondary role as a dueling weapon. Being able to smash your blade against Ferro-fibrous armor isn't actually an advantage since its still muscle powered and duels are fought unarmored. Short of a vibroblade, there's not much improvement that sci-fi adds to the uniform katana. So traditional manufacturing would be good enough

So realistically, having a few significant smithies turning out a few dozen blades a day would be able to supply every military academy in the Combine with swords for their graduates. They won't be stamped Masamune, but they'll do the job. And like any industry requiring large numbers of craftsmen, a few of the best will go into business for themselves producing at a higher quality than the large smithies produce, creating a supply of higher end products that will be sought after by more serious users or as status items for the elite.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Does the Combine even have non-military nobles?