total and utter hatred for one mech

[Sartris]

Think it's proof someone at Fasa never play tested their designs (or never played at all)

as a certified ******, i can attest that you are overlooking the secret option #3: they did it on purpose because it's funny.

[SteelRaven]

as a certified ******, i can attest that you are overlooking the secret option #3: they did it on purpose because it's funny.

No, everything in 3025 is sacred and I'm just a heathen munchkin for not enjoying every design.

[Failure16]

Sometimes designs are tried, and they don't work out, both in the military and civilian sector. Sometimes they even continue despite their flaws for as variety of reasons, ranging from social/demographic, political, to fiscal and beyond. Conversely, some things that do work out wane or go out of service for the same reasons.

For some real-world military examples, look to the Ontos on the one hand and the Sheridan on the other.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

"Cut a big chunk of the mech's protection out for a marginal increase in firepower" is something that showed up way too much in 3025.

[Starfury]

The 2D fits the later lore that it was a reaction to the horrible losses Davion took in the 1st Succession Wars vs Kurita. Then it just stuck around as some Mech is better then no Mech.  Hence why we have Banshee 3Es and Shadow Hawk 2H's in the ilClan era. (Well that and the never ending need some have for 3025...)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I know what the lore for the Shad 2D was.  I don't agree that it makes adequate sense.  Especially not as a design that stuck around for several centuries after- it's like the Spider and Lucifer.  They had a literally fatal flaw from their inception and yet somehow they persisted for centuries because nobody actually bothered to actually make a serious effort to replace them.

[Agathos]

The RFL-4D. It's too hot to use. What is the point?

[Jellico]

"Cut a big chunk of the mech's protection out for a marginal increase in firepower" is something that showed up way too much in 3025.

It is something you notice with light aerospace fighters a lot. It basically comes down to lack of options in 1980s 3025 tech. Once you rule out the small or medium laser there are no good swaps for small amounts of armor. Given heatsink limitations it is sometimes worse. Those 3025 light ASF all end up stupidly fast bricks with laser spam because they can't do anything else to make use of their limited weight.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Shadow Hawks were oversinked, though.

[Starfury]

The RFL-4D. It's too hot to use. What is the point?

It makes Hanse Dsvion happy, and you don't want Hanse Davion angry. The Capellans found that out the hard way until Hanse's kids ended up arguing over their shared room and one of them murdered Mom to get her half of it. Then they took advantage of the distraction to steal part of the son's room.

[BrianDavion]

The 2D fits the later lore that it was a reaction to the horrible losses Davion took in the 1st Succession Wars vs Kurita. Then it just stuck around as some Mech is better then no Mech.  Hence why we have Banshee 3Es and Shadow Hawk 2H's in the ilClan era. (Well that and the never ending need some have for 3025...)

Honestly? I never really got that line of logic, you;'re suffering heavy losses etc so you're going to make a medium trooper mech signfcigently LESS durable?
It would have made more sense converting the shadowhawk to an energy boat, hell or even a missile boat. swap out the AC 5 and SRM 2 for a LRM 15 with 2 tons ammo and another LRM 5 pack and suddenly you have a pretty good long range fire support mech.

[SteelRaven]

There are allot of weapon layouts that should have been on heavier chassis. I can only assume the 2D was someone's attempt at something like a Heavy Weapon Dougram and no one told them it was a bad idea.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Trying is one thing.  The fact that they kept using them is what doesn't make sense.

[Elmoth]

The Shadow Hawk to me is clearly the training mech of the IS. The chamaleon teaches heat management. The Shadow Hawk teaches weapons systems. Because the combo is just... well. It is.

[Daryk]

It still should have had the other two jump jets... :/

[SteelRaven]

The Shadowhawk 2H and 2D are in the same game and time frame as the Charger 1A1 and 1L, this is why some in our community still act like the word 'optimize' is a insult.

[Retry]

I completely angry that the Hellstar is criminally boring, but I have trouble mustering much of an emotional response for pretty much the same reason.

I just sort of forget about it unless it’s actually staring at me from across the field.

Same here, being effective but bland is not sufficient to warrant any emotional responses from me.  Unless something's either unusually useless or unusually annoying to deal with, any 'Mech (or any other combat unit or equipment) is not going to generate anything resembling total, utter hatred.

The Hellstar's blandness lets you throw one or two into a larger formation (more than Star/Lance size) for larger battles.  Since there's not much moving parts going on with the Hellstar you can just kinda let it exist and do fire support things for your other units, devoting most of your precious brainpower on your other, more interesting 'Mechs instead.  It's practically the Tofu of the Battlemech universe.

At least that has a credible niche.  I still haven't found one for the original Charger, except as OPFOR filler in campaigns.

[VensersRevenge]

Yeah, simple and bland is great if you are running a larger force

[Blaster]

Guillotine ...  its just so unbelivable ugly. I cant stand that thing. I am also not a big fan of mechs that stack lasers and heatsinks (Its just boring). It is also not needed as there is already the Grasshopper which is much cooler an fullfills the same role.

Champion... again sooo ugly. Who designed that thing??? The weapon loadout is also really bad.

Seriously, whenever I gamemaster battletech RPG groups,These two mechs just dont exist.

Also ... the Stormcrow because its just too good. Why do the clans even produce other mechs?

[Prospernia]

Guillotine ...  its just so unbelivable ugly. I cant stand that thing. I am also not a big fan of mechs that stack lasers and heatsinks (Its just boring). It is also not needed as there is already the Grasshopper which is much cooler an fullfills the same role.

Champion... again sooo ugly. Who designed that thing??? The weapon loadout is also really bad.

Seriously, whenever I gamemaster battletech RPG groups,These two mechs just dont exist.

Also ... the Stormcrow because its just too good. Why do the clans even produce other mechs?

I actually like the Guillotine; I used in with great efficiency in the First Succession-War. I'll have to re-evaluate the Stormcrow; as a 55-ton mech, I don't think anyone was much interested in it. They all wanted Heavy and above Clan-mechs.

[Middcore]

The redrawn Guillotine is one of my favorite 'Mechs, and it's arguably better than the Grasshopper because it has an actually useful SRM 6 instead of wasting its flashbulb zombie potential on a token LRM 5.

[Daryk]

Token LRM-5s are for smoke... if you don't play with smoke, I can see the attraction of the SRM-6.

[SteelRaven]

It always bothered me there was no SRM variant for the Grasshopper until the streak 2 model. Fasa made a whole new mech before giving the Grasshopper a SRM, come on.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

It always bothered me there was no SRM variant for the Grasshopper until the streak 2 model. Fasa made a whole new mech before giving the Grasshopper a SRM, come on.

I love both mechs… but THIS ^^^

Token LRM-5s are for smoke... if you don't play with smoke, I can see the attraction of the SRM-6.

I don’t use smoke because I’m lazy and haven’t looked up the rules… I use Thunder LRM’s instead because I have  looked up the rules already lol

[Daryk]

Good point about the Streak... swapping an SRM launcher or two in there would have been too easy, even in the 3rd SW.

[Prospernia]

LRM-5's are for six lucky head-hits in a row from 20-hexes away.

LRMs are good if you can use multiple-maps and continue to move away from your target so they can't get close.

[The Eagle]

I've always like the Guillotine and have defended it against the comparison to the Grasshopper many times, including here on this forum.  That being said, the old TRO art was never fantastic...but the CCG art was amazing.  Made it look chonky and angry.  This one in particular is my favorite bit of Guillotine art ever published: https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/1/18/CCG_Unlimited_Guillotine.jpg?timestamp=20100703215303

[rebs]

How many ways can we say "the Assassin sucks"? 

Just in English.  After exploring that we can delve into other languages. 

[Daryk]

The Assassin has two things going for it: 7/11/7 movement, and a Medium Laser.  Beyond that, I agree with you.

[Middcore]

'Mechs like the Assassin (and Cicada) make sense in a world where they're expected to only fight Wasps, Stingers, and Locusts 90% of the time.

Unfortunately, while that may be the world of the game setting, it isn't the way the game is actually played.