Anti-Orbital Defense: The enemy has the High Ground, how do you respond?

[Vehrec]

So, I was recently handed a paper on potential ground-to-orbit missiles, which claimed that a practical MANPOD (Man portable orbital defense) missile was possible.  Not that such a missile would be self-targeting, but that at least, the actual warhead, kill vehicle, and booster could be compacted into a missile about the same size as the Star League's standard infantry rifle. (12.5 kilos vs 10.5 for the Mauser 960)  Such a missile isn't very useful for a lot of things, but it is big enough to shoot down low-flying satellites or scratch a dangerous hole in a dropships' thermal protective system as it begins atmospheric interfaces.

And it got me thinking about the absolute paucity of weapons that can fulfill this niche in battletech itself.  So, if you find that the enemy holds the orbitals-what are your options for striking back?  Capital missiles, and...that's it, isn't it?  Nothing road-mobile, nothing you can air-launch?  If you were charged with building orbital defense on a budget, how would you go about doing this?

[Hellraiser]

Naval Laser Batteries,  no reload necessary,  just plug them in & light up the sky.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Reinforced_Weapons_Bunker

[Alan Grant]

Honestly the go-to is aerospace fighters....

...and really think about that. You are drawing a line from real world capability to BT capability. Imagine if real world combat aircraft could just lift off from their current bases and aircraft carriers around the world, fly up through the atmosphere, get to orbit and start killing stuff. Really think that through.

Oh and BTW, all Battletech aerospace fighters are V/STOL, so its very possible for them to get away from large air bases and operate out of smaller or improvised airfields (in case you were thinking you'd just splash them all with orbital fire from space first before they could lift off).

I know that isn't exactly what you are asking, but honestly its even better. Because that ASF can get up there, get into formation with others, kill something, land, refuel, rearm at a different airbase so it's hard to find them, and do it all over again. Then if the enemy comes into atmosphere or land, that weapon system is still relevant. It hasn't been rendered useless like a ground based laser battery might just because the enemy has left orbit and landed.

[Vehrec]

Capital lasers require massive facilities, though their capabilities are impressive.  But, they can never be road mobile.  ASFs have their own advantages but, they're a symmetrical force, fighting dropships and other ASFs on their own terms, strength vs strength.  What about conventional fighters, what options do they have?  Can I strap a anti-ship Arrow to a Mechbuster and go dropship hunting?

[Cannonshop]

Capital lasers require massive facilities, though their capabilities are impressive.  But, they can never be road mobile.  ASFs have their own advantages but, they're a symmetrical force, fighting dropships and other ASFs on their own terms, strength vs strength.  What about conventional fighters, what options do they have?  Can I strap a anti-ship Arrow to a Mechbuster and go dropship hunting?

It might be cheaper/more effective to go dropship hunting that way with a standard Air-launched Arrow IV after the dropship lands, or while it's in the landing cycle at too-low-an-altitude-to-dodge.

[AlphaMirage]

Like Alan Grant noted Aerospace Fighters are the go to for Orbital Defense. Easy to disperse, conceal, and mass while being able to deploy Alamos.
You can also launch Anti-Shipping Missiles with regular airbreathing conventional fighters (of 30 tons or heavier) into low orbit. So that is an even more cost effective way to handle it. However, I would only do so against dropships or satellites as ConvAir vs Aerospace is not a winning fight.

However, you can go for a full Nuclear Quadrangle (Air, Sea, Land, and Space)

Other options include,
Blue Water Missile Craft such as the Triton although more options certainly exist
Blue Water Aerospace Carriers such as the Argo, Lysander, or Luftenburg
Pocket Warships, since those can fire Capital Missiles up (and conduct surface bombardment) at targets in orbit from the ground
Fortified Missile Silos or a Castle Brian
Railroad Based Missiles
Also you could make a superheavy TEL ground vehicle/mobile structure like the Rattler. One that can fire Missiles or Sub-Capital Lasers while being able to return to a particularly large bunker.

[Daryk]

I'll just leave this here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,74485.0.html

[idea weenie]

Capital lasers require massive facilities, though their capabilities are impressive.  But, they can never be road mobile.  ASFs have their own advantages but, they're a symmetrical force, fighting dropships and other ASFs on their own terms, strength vs strength.  What about conventional fighters, what options do they have?  Can I strap a anti-ship Arrow to a Mechbuster and go dropship hunting?

Depends on how you define 'road' - Rattler

A rough quote from another book for a similar-sized vehicle:
"Take a left at, I mean on the town"

[Vehrec]

The Rattler is road-flattening, road destroying, certainly not a road-mobile TEL.  The Rattler is for Winning More, but it's not in any way the basis for a militia's defenses.

I think part of why aerospace fighters feel disingenuous to me is it's very like vs like.  Rather like asking 'what's the best anti-mech weapon' and getting told 'bring your own mech'.  Its asking for the best air-defense system and being told it's an air-force better than the enemy's.  What's the best way to contest the high-ground, when the enemy holds it?  Bring a superior orbital force and strike them with it, or at least, try to play the game of the High Seas Fleet of isolating and destroying portions of the attacking force with a locally superior orbital force.  Random Taurian militas might have the technical knowledge to throw together a mini-mag orion drive that is actually a weapon to machine-gun you with tiny nukes, but they don't have a delivery system.

[mikecj]

I'll just leave this here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,74485.0.html

The Lightweight Fighter Mafia salute you.

[Alan Grant]

The Rattler is road-flattening, road destroying, certainly not a road-mobile TEL.  The Rattler is for Winning More, but it's not in any way the basis for a militia's defenses.

I think part of why aerospace fighters feel disingenuous to me is it's very like vs like.  Rather like asking 'what's the best anti-mech weapon' and getting told 'bring your own mech'.  Its asking for the best air-defense system and being told it's an air-force better than the enemy's.  What's the best way to contest the high-ground, when the enemy holds it?  Bring a superior orbital force and strike them with it, or at least, try to play the game of the High Seas Fleet of isolating and destroying portions of the attacking force with a locally superior orbital force.  Random Taurian militas might have the technical knowledge to throw together a mini-mag orion drive that is actually a weapon to machine-gun you with tiny nukes, but they don't have a delivery system.

Actually, by anti-orbital I thought you meant dropships (assault dropships, pocket warships etc.)

In that case, sending up any number of ASFs can be a little David versus Goliath. Or akin to sending jump infantry to swarm a 'mech.

So... in my head that's not Like-Like. If there's an Overlord A3 up there, or a constellation or droppers and I'm scrambling my few ASFs. That can actually be pretty tough, and odds are the orbital threat have at least a handful of ASFs themselves.

But the game mechanics pile a lot of firepower into ASFs, enough that a squadron or wing of them can crack many dropships. BT has made ASFs the Go-To offensive weapon in space. There's a reason the fighter carriers like the Aesir are regarded as the offensive or force projection platform, while the Vanir are regarded as a more defensive platform.

Picture BA swarming a BattleMech. That's what I'm imagining here. So not Like-Like.

More like... if Battletech was a rock-paper-scissors game. Dropships are rock and ASFs are paper. They are the appropriate counter-move.

The Like-Like answer would be to launch assault dropships or PWS from the ground to engage those droppers in orbit.

[RifleMech]

The "enemy has the high ground" has me thinking that they already have aerospace superiority. The defenders may still have some aerospace craft left but not a lot. If there's a budget, conventional fighters are still an option. The enemy still has the higher ground but they'd still help defending the surface.

Capital Missiles would be the best weapon for the budget conscious but any Capital Weapon would work. I do wonder why Mobile Structures are discounted though. Capital Missiles can't be mounted on anything "road mobile". A cruise missile could though and it would be my choice for "road mobile" AA defense, along with ADA Arrows, and tube artillery. Air Burst Nukes are an option but I'd prefer not to irradiate my planet if I have other alternatives. After that, ER Lasers and ER PPCs along with Autocannons with flak ammo and LBX with cluster rounds. HV Autocannons used as field guns would also be good.

[Vehrec]

Actually, by anti-orbital I thought you meant dropships (assault dropships, pocket warships etc.)

In that case, sending up any number of ASFs can be a little David versus Goliath. Or akin to sending jump infantry to swarm a 'mech.

So... in my head that's not Like-Like. If there's an Overlord A3 up there, or a constellation or droppers and I'm scrambling my few ASFs. That can actually be pretty tough, and odds are the orbital threat have at least a handful of ASFs themselves.

But the game mechanics pile a lot of firepower into ASFs, enough that a squadron or wing of them can crack many dropships. BT has made ASFs the Go-To offensive weapon in space. There's a reason the fighter carriers like the Aesir are regarded as the offensive or force projection platform, while the Vanir are regarded as a more defensive platform.

Picture BA swarming a BattleMech. That's what I'm imagining here. So not Like-Like.

More like... if Battletech was a rock-paper-scissors game. Dropships are rock and ASFs are paper. They are the appropriate counter-move.

The Like-Like answer would be to launch assault dropships or PWS from the ground to engage those droppers in orbit.

Okay so what do I mean by anti-orbital? I mean everything over the interface hex-space stations, satellites, dropships, ASFs angling for a bombing run on our base.  And by anti, to be clear, I mean I want to attack them from down here, boots on the ground.  Or at least, down in the soup, on the OTHER side of the interface hex, the one that has air.  If an enemy unit captures or blows up our satellite coms and starts deploying their own, how do I best return the favor?  How do I, personally, introduce that Clanner, to this soda-can with attitude, forcing him to make a control roll and his dropship to experience a significant emotional event?  Okay, not the biggest boom, but do you really want to take a control roll because 1 LRM hit you for a single point of damage?

This is not a question of 'how do I kill this?' it's 'they are coming to kill me, how do I make them bleed?'  I'm the underdog here-which is why mobile structures and huge static bunkers get a Miss from me.

[Alan Grant]

I think the discussion so far has given you a good overview of the options.

The only things I can truly think of to add as possibilities are things like suicidal civilian spacecraft (ramming speed!) that could be small craft, could be dropships.

At Wayside V, the Northwind Highlanders, on the ground, when faced with a Smoke Jaguar warship overhead and no means to really combat it, their dropships decided to make a run for it. To try to attract the Nova Cats to come and tangle with the Jaguars. The fleeing dropships deployed some escape pods or lifeboats as improvised missiles as part of their escape plan. Didn't kill the Essex-class Destroyer, just slowed it down enough so they could get away. To this day I'm not sure how realistic that scenario is and how much it's just novel plot not really rooted in game mechanics, but I'm sure it surprised the destroyer crew at least.

From there my brain pivots to the possibility of getting assistance from another solar system. The distress call via HPG or courier.

Outside of that, I feel like everything else is laid out in the discussion already. Personally I wish blue water assets with some of these capabilities (i.e. surface to orbit weapon systems) were more common in Battletech. But that's me speaking also as a fan of blue water assets who would love to see them proliferate more in a strategically useful way.

The underlying message is that you need to make sure you have some of these things laying around, some of these tools, some of these options, or the planet you are on is in real danger of someone operating anything (spacecraft, satellite, fighters, anything) in orbit with impunity. Just as its at risk of being invaded if you have no militia or military at all. If that's the reality, then you are at risk of being someone's easy conquest. If you have nothing that can threaten anything in orbit, then your orbital space is at risk of being an easy conquest if anyone cares to do so.

The good news is that this is Battletech, and those assets do exist. It's not hard to imagine even a low budget planetary militia having a couple old fighters. Or a few military small craft they can send up. Or a dropship or three operating as system patrol craft doing customs work and watching for pirates and smugglers in the solar system.

But we've absolutely seen canon situations where a planet was put under siege from orbit and there was nothing the people on the ground could do about it but dig in, hide, and wait for that dynamic to change somehow.

[Daryk]

RL-10s on the cheapest conventional fighters you can buy should do the trick for control rolls... ;)

[AlphaMirage]

RL-10s on the cheapest conventional fighters you can buy should do the trick for control rolls... ;)

Getting them to the target is the tricky part. Aerospace Fighters can choose to disengage and float in orbit for a bit before coming back while the airbreather is on the ground or out of the area. To reach them you need AA Arrow IVs or equivalent Anti-Shipping Missiles and those need heavier airbreathers and only get a single shot (without missile/cargo bay shenanigans)

[Daryk]

I used bomb bay shenanigans in my thread... ;)

[RifleMech]

Okay so what do I mean by anti-orbital? I mean everything over the interface hex-space stations, satellites, dropships, ASFs angling for a bombing run on our base.  And by anti, to be clear, I mean I want to attack them from down here, boots on the ground.  Or at least, down in the soup, on the OTHER side of the interface hex, the one that has air.  If an enemy unit captures or blows up our satellite coms and starts deploying their own, how do I best return the favor?  How do I, personally, introduce that Clanner, to this soda-can with attitude, forcing him to make a control roll and his dropship to experience a significant emotional event?  Okay, not the biggest boom, but do you really want to take a control roll because 1 LRM hit you for a single point of damage?

This is not a question of 'how do I kill this?' it's 'they are coming to kill me, how do I make them bleed?'  I'm the underdog here-which is why mobile structures and huge static bunkers get a Miss from me.

If you're on the surface and you want to hit something in orbit your options are Capitol Weapons. Those are only on mobile structures and static bunkers. The next weapons with range are Cruise Missiles. They can be mounted on larger vehicles but I'm not sure if they're allowed to hit targets in orbit. Beyond them, you're defenses are airborne using Arrow Missiles.

[Gorgon]

Depending on how durable your roads are...

you can just about fit a Piranha sub-capital missile launcher and ~2 shots on a 160 ton wheeled trailer. It should be possible to even fit it in a turret and equip it with advanced fire control, if my guesstimation is good enough. Coming from RL, 160 tons (or 320 tons if you combine tractor and trailer) would be far beyond anything road-capable. But in-universe, the Hector Road Train does exist and as it is named a road train and not fitted with offroad capabilities, I guess it would count...

[maxcarrion]

Like Alan Grant noted Aerospace Fighters are the go to for Orbital Defense. Easy to disperse, conceal, and mass while being able to deploy Alamos.
You can also launch Anti-Shipping Missiles with regular airbreathing conventional fighters (of 30 tons or heavier) into low orbit. So that is an even more cost effective way to handle it. However, I would only do so against dropships or satellites as ConvAir vs Aerospace is not a winning fight.

However, you can go for a full Nuclear Quadrangle (Air, Sea, Land, and Space)

Other options include,
Blue Water Missile Craft such as the Triton although more options certainly exist
Blue Water Aerospace Carriers such as the Argo, Lysander, or Luftenburg
Pocket Warships, since those can fire Capital Missiles up (and conduct surface bombardment) at targets in orbit from the ground
Fortified Missile Silos or a Castle Brian
Railroad Based Missiles
Also you could make a superheavy TEL ground vehicle/mobile structure like the Rattler. One that can fire Missiles or Sub-Capital Lasers while being able to return to a particularly large bunker.

I think this list is pretty complete.  You can pop a sub cap weapon on any blue water, rail or tracked support vehicle, although the tracked limit of 200T means you won't fit much on, you could definitely fit a single piranha + launcher within the 200T limit though.  You could build 400T rail support vehicles toting SCLs and introduce enemy warships to your pain train.

I don't know if there are rules for it, but militia would probably just have small missile bunkers, each one a single cap missile launcher with some ammo, missile silo style.  Gotta be the cheapest way to do it.  The rules around these are an afterthought at best though, un-surprising as the game revolves around armoured combat rather than orbital siege.