Author Topic: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me  (Read 4348 times)

Sir Chaos

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Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« on: 14 December 2023, 07:41:31 »
So there´s always been three little things, even when introtech was the only thing around, that kinda annoyed me about the construction rules - let that say about me what you want.

The first is that mechs have ten fixed weight-free heat sinks, but a number of crit-free heat sinks dependant on engine rating; some mechs have weight-free heat sinks that take up crit space, some have crit-free heat sinks that take up weight, some even have fewer heat sinks than could fit into their engine - it´s a bit of a mess, really.
The second is that the SRM-6 has a lower number of missiles per ton than other SRM launchers.
The third is that the AC/2 has a lower number of rounds  (in terms of damage done per ton) than the other sizes.

Let´s tackle the second and third first, because they´re quickest, easiest and least disruptive to status quo:
- Ammo per ton for the AC/2 is increased to 50 shots, so all autocannon do 100 points of damage per ton of ammo.
- SRM ammo is standardized to 96 missiles (instead of 100 or 90) per ton, and 16/24/48 shots respectively for the SRM-6/-4/-2. That also leaves the option of introducing an SRM-8 with 12 shots per ton (4 tons, 2 cits, 5 heat)

As for the engines... I think it makes a lot more sense to grant heat sinks by engine rating rather than a fixed number. Since a lot of ´mechs have engine ratings below 250 and would be less viable with only one heat sink per 25 engine rating (the PNT-9R Panther would have 5 free and 3 extra heat sinks to handle 10 heat from firing its PPC, for example), I would increase free heat sinks to one per 20 engine rating; all free heat sinks would be inside the engine an thus not take up crit space.
That would give a semi-representative selection of introtech mechs the following number of (free + extra) heat sinks:
WSP-1A Wasp: 4 (6+0)
COM-2D Commando: 7 (7+0)
PNT-9R Panther: 10 (7+3)
JR7-D Jenner: 12 (12+0)
CDA-2A Cicada: 16 (16+0)
BJ-1 Blackjack: 10 (9+1)
GRF-1N Griffin: 15 (13+2)
RFL-3N Rifleman: 12 (12+0)
WHM-6R Warhammer: 22 (14+8)
MAD-3R Marauder: 21 (15+6)
BLR-1G BattleMaster: 25 (17+8)
AS7-D Atlas: 25 (15+10)

As you can see, this would hamper a lot of lighter designs, especially the ones with slower speed (and smaller engines) for their size, and benefit the heavier ones. With XL engines, and the larger engine sizes they facilitate, that would shift further towards improving existing designs, especially those with doube heat sinks who would benefit twice as much from each extra heat sink.
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maxcarrion

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #1 on: 15 December 2023, 11:20:16 »
Indeed, a massive buff for all mechs with big engines is exactly what the game needs, with a big old nerf to the light, slow mechs that were dominating the game too much already.  Afterall, big fission reactors are renowned for their ability to cool things around them more efficiently than smaller fission reactors. 

I especially like how this would impact, say, a Timber Wolf, which would get an additional 8 double heat sinks totally free increasing it's sinking capacity 50% and allowing it to constantly alpha strike for every configuration.  Still, poor Timber Wolf was in desperate need of a buff, especially now that the wasp can't run and fire it's 1 medium laser without overheating.

Syzyx

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #2 on: 15 December 2023, 12:08:32 »
I certainly see the value in standardizing some of the ammo loads. I too have been long annoyed by the SRM6 ammo discrepancy. Hadn't really considered the AC/2 but an extra 5 shots isn't going to hurt it much. And allows for 1/2 ton bins conveniently if using fractional accounting.

Regarding the built-in heatsinks I'd approach the matter a bit differently. Instead of giving more cooling to larger engines, I'd instead adjust the rule on engine hits. The first engine hit disables half of the in-engine heat sinks and the second disables all of them instead of the flat +5 and +10 heat penalties. So something like a Marauder would suffer +6 heat on the first engine hit (or +12 on later models) and +12 for the second (or +24 for the later models). This gives a counterbalance to hiding heat sinks and also somewhat addresses the matter of DHS almost making heat irrelevant.
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garhkal

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #3 on: 15 December 2023, 13:59:13 »
Indeed, a massive buff for all mechs with big engines is exactly what the game needs, with a big old nerf to the light, slow mechs that were dominating the game too much already.  Afterall, big fission reactors are renowned for their ability to cool things around them more efficiently than smaller fission reactors. 

I especially like how this would impact, say, a Timber Wolf, which would get an additional 8 double heat sinks totally free increasing it's sinking capacity 50% and allowing it to constantly alpha strike for every configuration.  Still, poor Timber Wolf was in desperate need of a buff, especially now that the wasp can't run and fire it's 1 medium laser without overheating.

Nice sarcasm.  BUT the OP forgets, engine ratings already Do count for heat inside it..  tonnage/25 for # of free heat in your engine.
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VanVelding

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #4 on: 15 December 2023, 14:45:14 »
BUT the OP forgets, engine ratings already Do count for heat inside it..  tonnage/25 for # of free heat in your engine.
You forgot that the OP mentioned that several times in their post.

As far as Sir Chaos' idea, I get the aesthetic idea behind it. I can accept that the optimum crits/heat efficiency is the 250-rated engine, smaller engines use additional bulk to keep that 10 heat dissipation ability, and larger engines can only add more internal cooling by adding additional tonnage.

I'd adjust a few things to maybe address the issue:
-Make the external heat sinks optional. And let two of them pack into the same critical space.
-Make engines with internal heat sinks with weight count as a completely different engine type for those without. A 300 SFE with 2 tons of internal heat sinks would be a different animal, for the purposes of salvage, cost, and customization, to a 300 SFE with no internal heat sinks.
-Make the 'free internal heat sinks' rating into a 'free internal heat sink crits' rating.
-Increase the 'free internal heat sink crit' rating of XL, LFE, and XXL engines. Decrease that of CFEs.

I don't know if it addresses all of your issues, but 'mechs only have to take as many heat sinks as they need, 'free' heatsinks that aren't internal have a little bonus instead of sucking up crits, putting extra heat sinks into the engine structurally changes the engine instead of having them pop in like Nintendo cartridges, and the capacity of the engine varies by rating, heat sink type, and engine type.
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drjones

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #5 on: 16 December 2023, 09:26:34 »
The "ten free heat sinks" allowance does seem a bit difficult to explain assuming that these are really heat sinks, at one ton each. (Where do those ten tons come from when calculating the tonnage of the 'mech?) However, changing the heat sink calculation would seem to  have serious ramifications for existing 'mech designs and their relative value and capabilities. One alternative idea might be to change the explanation: all 'mechs have, instead of 10 physical heat sink components, an inherent ability to dissipate 10 points of heat (via usual thermal processes using their structure and surfaces). Rules-wise, this could argue for dropping the requirement to place any of these 10 "heat sinks" on critical charts. I'm not sure how significant a change to the game mechanics that would make. A counterargument for leaving these "heat sinks" on the charts could be that these criticals represent structural damage that compromises design elements (baffling? air channels?) intended to dissipate heat; it might be possible to argue why bigger engines would handle more of this task internally. An additional possible logical rule change would be an adjustment to the rules for enhanced cooling due to being in water; a successful explanation for why heat sinks still appear on the critical charts should negate any argument for this change as well. A final possible change would be considering whether critical damage to these "heat sinks" would have different cost/difficulty/parts to repair.

Sir Chaos

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #6 on: 16 December 2023, 11:14:56 »
I certainly see the value in standardizing some of the ammo loads. I too have been long annoyed by the SRM6 ammo discrepancy. Hadn't really considered the AC/2 but an extra 5 shots isn't going to hurt it much. And allows for 1/2 ton bins conveniently if using fractional accounting.

Regarding the built-in heatsinks I'd approach the matter a bit differently. Instead of giving more cooling to larger engines, I'd instead adjust the rule on engine hits. The first engine hit disables half of the in-engine heat sinks and the second disables all of them instead of the flat +5 and +10 heat penalties. So something like a Marauder would suffer +6 heat on the first engine hit (or +12 on later models) and +12 for the second (or +24 for the later models). This gives a counterbalance to hiding heat sinks and also somewhat addresses the matter of DHS almost making heat irrelevant.

Now THAT is an interesting idea. I like it.

Optional rule when using this: Engines aren´t automatically disabled on the third crit, instead each crit disables a fixed number of heat sinks (half the 1-per-25-engine-size crit-less heat sinks, rounding up the TOTAL number of sinks disable, so for 11 sinks, first hit disables 6, second hit disables 5 and so on). The engine is disabled when the amount of heat sinks disabled from both engine crits and heat sink crits at least equals the total heat sink capacity.

So for example a mech with a 250-270 size engine and 10 heat sinks (TBT-5N oder CRD-3R for example) would be knocked out of the fight after two engine crits, while having at least one heat sink outside the engine would make the mech last until the third crit, and machines with a lot of heat sinks and/or small engines (PNT-9R or AWS-8Q) could take a lot of engine crits. That would buff a lot of lighter designs with smaller engines, too.

And as you point out, while double heat sinks in the engine are "free", having double heat sinks also you lose twice as much heat capacity on an engine crit, taking away a small part of the advantage of double heat sinks - which is probably not a bad thing.
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Daemion

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #7 on: 16 December 2023, 12:16:16 »
I get the AC/2 not having an even 50 shots per ton.  Don't get it.

SRM-6 is a hard one because you don't get an even division of 6 into 100 rounds.  And, the SRM-2 and -4 do have an even breakdown into 100.  So, even though SRMs of a brand can fit in the launchers for the brand, the SRM-6 has its ammo packets packaged different.

The Heat Sink thing, I really don't have an exact opinion on. 
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Daryk

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #8 on: 16 December 2023, 16:54:55 »
This was my approach to the heat sink question: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,62762.0.html

idea weenie

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #9 on: 16 December 2023, 23:26:45 »
So there´s always been three little things, even when introtech was the only thing around, that kinda annoyed me about the construction rules - let that say about me what you want.

(snipped engine heat sink notes)

The second is that the SRM-6 has a lower number of missiles per ton than other SRM launchers.

Let´s tackle the second and third first, because they´re quickest, easiest and least disruptive to status quo:
- SRM ammo is standardized to 96 missiles (instead of 100 or 90) per ton, and 16/24/48 shots respectively for the SRM-6/-4/-2. That also leaves the option of introducing an SRM-8 with 12 shots per ton (4 tons, 2 cits, 5 heat)

For the engines, how about just 10 pts of cooling per engine?  If SHS then each Heat Sink that cannot fit gets put outside the engine.  if DHS then put enough DHS outside the engine so that the remaining DHS can fit inside the engine.  I.e. if using a 175-rated engine with DHS, then only 7 pts of heat dissipation is provided by the engine, meaning 2 of the 5 DHS have to be put outside the engine.


For SRMs, how about 120 missiles per ton?  This changes the shots/ton of ammo to be:
SRM-2 - 60 shots/ton
SRM-4 - 30 shots/ton
SRM-6 - 20 shots/ton
SRM-8 - 15 shots/ton
SRM-10 - 12 shots/ton
SRM-12 - 10 shots/ton

(120 is not just the number of missiles per ton for LRMs, but is also an anti-prime)

Sir Chaos

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #10 on: 17 December 2023, 10:46:06 »
For SRMs, how about 120 missiles per ton?  This changes the shots/ton of ammo to be:
SRM-2 - 60 shots/ton
SRM-4 - 30 shots/ton
SRM-6 - 20 shots/ton
SRM-8 - 15 shots/ton
SRM-10 - 12 shots/ton
SRM-12 - 10 shots/ton

(120 is not just the number of missiles per ton for LRMs, but is also an anti-prime)

I went with 96 shots for two reasons: It is a very minor change (and decent compromise) from the original 90/100 shots, and it gives the three main ammunition categories (LRM, SRM, AC) different numbers of shots per ton (120, 96, 100).

With a potential SRM-8 as the biggest SRM launcher, both LRM and SRM come in four sizes that are multiples (single, double, triple, quadruple) of the same basic launcher (SRM-2 and LRM-5). That kind of symmetry appeals to me.
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RifleMech

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #11 on: 18 December 2023, 05:01:52 »
So there´s always been three little things, even when introtech was the only thing around, that kinda annoyed me about the construction rules - let that say about me what you want.

(snip)

The ammo numbers has bugged me too. 96 rounds for SRMs and 100 for the AC/2 works good.

As for the engine, the lower engine ratings end up taking more critical hits because the heat sinks aren't in the engine. They take up critical slots. That gives engines with higher ratings the advantage. Engine Ratings 275 and up actually gain critical slots when it comes to heat sinks, especially when double heat sinks are used. That's up to 6-18 slots depending on the type of heat sinks installed. And while external heat sinks do provide some crit padding their loss can still hamper the mech. The added internal heat sinks can't be hit except from the 3rd engine hit which kills the mech anyway. That's a huge advantage for the larger engines.

That said, Heat Sinks may not be the best term for the ones that come with the engine or are mounted internally.
Maybe Cooling System or something but they'd do the same job so the name probably doesn't matter much. It would be interesting to allow Mechs to not install outside heat sinks to free up space.

Sir Chaos

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #12 on: 18 December 2023, 11:57:31 »
Hmmm... totally wild idea here: What if stronger engines actually gave you fewer heat sinks?

The stronger the engine, the more waste heat it produces, and thus the more heat sinks are busy just keeping heat "neutral" instead actually reducing it. Yet all engines of a given type (standard, light, XL etc) are the same size, and thus should either have the same number of heat sinks built in, or should have fewer heat sinks because more of the given amount of space is taken up by the engine itself. Maybe it´s something like 20 free heat sinks minus 1 per 25 points of engine power, meaning that 250 point engines are still same as before.
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Charistoph

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #13 on: 18 December 2023, 12:11:48 »
That might work if there was no Heat for normal operations, i.e. Walking.  Still, I think that just keeping Engines to a base amount of Cooling would be a simpler measure.  Any more desired needs to be provided by crit-taken Heat Sinks.

On the other hand, that would require a notably significant change in official Record Sheet builds.
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DevianID

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #14 on: 18 December 2023, 13:03:42 »
I really like the idea that engine heat sinks that don't have a crit slot are what gets hit with each engine hit.  So 1 engine hit to a mech with 7 engine sinks is 4 heat, and 2 hits would be all 7 sinks.  Makes 3025 engine hits not as deadly for smaller engines, and makes double heat sink units actually care about engine hits.  2 engine hits after losing a side torso on a timber wolf dropping 30 engine heat, versus 10, would actually feel like you crippled that mech instead of minor inconvenience.

garhkal

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #15 on: 18 December 2023, 14:33:03 »
SRM-6 is a hard one because you don't get an even division of 6 into 100 rounds.  And, the SRM-2 and -4 do have an even breakdown into 100.  So, even though SRMs of a brand can fit in the launchers for the brand, the SRM-6 has its ammo packets packaged different.

I liked the suggestion, of making ALL SRM's use a 96 shot 'ammo pack', so SRM-2's get 48 shots, SRM-4's get 24 shots a ton, and SRM-6's get 16 shots a ton..

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Daryk

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #16 on: 18 December 2023, 18:34:18 »
Hmmm... I suppose I could add a "Type 0" heat sink to my other thread: 1 ton, 1 heat and 2 crits outside the engine... hmmm...

Mechanis

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #17 on: 20 December 2023, 08:30:03 »
I mean, if you actually want SRMs to be given correct ammunition loads it should be 30 rounds for the SRM 2, 15 for the 4, and 10 for the 6, and while we're at it we can drop the MG down to 100/50/33 rounds for the light/standard/heavy variants and, yes,bump the AC 2 back up to 50 rounds.

Heck, while we're on the subject, we can either drop the artillery damage back to what it was originally, or properly give them 6/5/4 rounds a ton for the Thumper/Sniper/LT respectively. Just expunge all the inconsistent ammo numbers and get it back to being 100/120
Or hell, just make everything 120/ton! That would help a lot.   

AlphaMirage

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #18 on: 20 December 2023, 09:02:00 »
120/ton for all ammo except for MRMs (and maybe MGs) would be the optimal choice.

We have done a modification of MGs where it fires a '5' cluster burst (using 5 rounds in process) and that works pretty good considering how short range and explodey it is.

idea weenie

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #19 on: 20 December 2023, 21:24:46 »
Heck, while we're on the subject, we can either drop the artillery damage back to what it was originally, or properly give them 6/5/4 rounds a ton for the Thumper/Sniper/LT respectively. Just expunge all the inconsistent ammo numbers and get it back to being 100/120
Or hell, just make everything 120/ton! That would help a lot.

I'd like Aerospace bomb damage to be proportional to what an artillery shell can do.  I.e. if a 200-kg Long Tom shell can do 25 pts of damage to the center hex, then a 1000 kg aerospace bomb should be able to do 125 pts of damage.  Especially since the 200 kg Long Tom shell also has to include propellant to lift the shell up high enough, while the Aerospace fighter bomb is being lifted by the Aerospace fighter.

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #20 on: 20 December 2023, 23:18:11 »
I mean, if you actually want SRMs to be given correct ammunition loads it should be 30 rounds for the SRM 2, 15 for the 4, and 10 for the 6, and while we're at it we can drop the MG down to 100/50/33 rounds for the light/standard/heavy variants and, yes,bump the AC 2 back up to 50 rounds.

Heck, while we're on the subject, we can either drop the artillery damage back to what it was originally, or properly give them 6/5/4 rounds a ton for the Thumper/Sniper/LT respectively. Just expunge all the inconsistent ammo numbers and get it back to being 100/120
Or hell, just make everything 120/ton! That would help a lot.
Why is 60 missiles per ton the "correct" choice for SRMs?  The whole point of SRMs is that they trade off the range of LRMs in favor of more firepower. (both per-missile and per-ton), so it would be weird if they didn't do that.

DevianID

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #21 on: 21 December 2023, 04:36:13 »
I'd like Aerospace bomb damage to be proportional to what an artillery shell can do.  I.e. if a 200-kg Long Tom shell can do 25 pts of damage to the center hex, then a 1000 kg aerospace bomb should be able to do 125 pts of damage.  Especially since the 200 kg Long Tom shell also has to include propellant to lift the shell up high enough, while the Aerospace fighter bomb is being lifted by the Aerospace fighter.
My nitpick here is that the bombs are not actually 1 ton each... like a single arrow takes up 5 bomb slots, so 40kgper slot, while a RL10 takes up 1 slot but is a .5 ton item, ect.  Bombs are what they are purely as a gameplay conceit for balanced gameplay.  As for artillery, well artillery damage is comically too high.  A 200kg AC20 does 20, but a long tom has that same shell size yet does 25 ae, 15 ae, 5 ae, for like 380 potential damage with 1 attack?  Its a joke.  Artillery is grossly overpowered, so comparing something like bombs which were balanced for gameplay isn't fair when artillery was buffed far beyond what is sensical. 

Mechanis

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #22 on: 23 December 2023, 00:50:42 »
Why is 60 missiles per ton the "correct" choice for SRMs?  The whole point of SRMs is that they trade off the range of LRMs in favor of more firepower. (both per-missile and per-ton), so it would be weird if they didn't do that.
Because ammo per ton is based on damage points - with the exception of AC/2s, and MGs (and Gauss) every ballistic weapon has 100 damage points per ton of ammunition - even the Artillery did, with the original, less absurd damage values (which the Cannon variants still use, despite nominally using the same ammo, hooray for plotholes); similarly with missile weapons (and gauss rifles) each ton of Ammo is equal to 120 points of damage.

Artillery is off because they massively buffed the damage but didn't apply a corresponding reduction in ammo counts; AC 2s are off because 5 rounds get shaved For Reasons; and MGs are off because their entire statline is wacky and seems like something added by someone who wasn't looking at the rest of the weapons at all. SRMs are off because, as far as I can tell, someone forgot that each missile does 2 damage and so didn't produce the correct ammo counts.

idea weenie

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #23 on: 23 December 2023, 09:22:31 »
My nitpick here is that the bombs are not actually 1 ton each... like a single arrow takes up 5 bomb slots, so 40kgper slot, while a RL10 takes up 1 slot but is a .5 ton item, ect.  Bombs are what they are purely as a gameplay conceit for balanced gameplay.  As for artillery, well artillery damage is comically too high.  A 200kg AC20 does 20, but a long tom has that same shell size yet does 25 ae, 15 ae, 5 ae, for like 380 potential damage with 1 attack?  Its a joke.  Artillery is grossly overpowered, so comparing something like bombs which were balanced for gameplay isn't fair when artillery was buffed far beyond what is sensical. 

Good catch.  Is there a chart in a Core Book that lists the smaller masses for the different types of bombs?  (I likely missed it)

The data I used was:
* Campaign Operations -> Maintenance, Salvage, Repair & Customization -> Design Quirks -> Internal Bomb Bay (page 227): each bomb slot used takes up 1 ton of cargo capacity
* Interstellar Operations -> Alternate Eras, Units & Equipment -> LAM Construction -> Bomb Bays (p114): "each of which weighs 1 ton and occupies 1 critical space in the unit’s left or right torso. Each bomb bay accommodates a single-slot bomb,"
* Tech Manual -> Heavy Weapon Ammunition Table (page 346) lists weight for various bombs as 1 ton each


You are right about the artillery damage though, I have similar comments about the Arrow IV vs the Thunderbolt-20:
Weapon               Damage     Range               mass/shot     mass/lchr
Thunderbolt-202018 hexes333 kg15 tons
Arrow IV20+8 mapsheets200 kg15 tons

Because ammo per ton is based on damage points - with the exception of AC/2s, and MGs (and Gauss) every ballistic weapon has 100 damage points per ton of ammunition - even the Artillery did, with the original, less absurd damage values (which the Cannon variants still use, despite nominally using the same ammo, hooray for plotholes); similarly with missile weapons (and gauss rifles) each ton of Ammo is equal to 120 points of damage.

Artillery is off because they massively buffed the damage but didn't apply a corresponding reduction in ammo counts; AC 2s are off because 5 rounds get shaved For Reasons; and MGs are off because their entire statline is wacky and seems like something added by someone who wasn't looking at the rest of the weapons at all. SRMs are off because, as far as I can tell, someone forgot that each missile does 2 damage and so didn't produce the correct ammo counts.

For MG, assuming the BT 3025-era standard Machine Gun is just the future version of the M2 Browning 50 caliber machine gun, each bullet masses ~125 grams (from here, but I increased the mass to make the math easy).  1 ton of ammo containing shots massing 125 grams per bullet is 8000 bullets.  Assuming 400 shots this is 20 round bursts.

Now if the Battletech Machine Gun is a 20mm cannon, then each bullet would mass about 320 grams, so 1 ton of ammo would contain 3125 individual rounds.  Assuming a 400 shots this would be a 7 or 8 round burst.

Now I'm wondering if all of the larger Autocannons need to be increased in shots per ton of ammo.


For SRMs and LRMs, I'd see them as a roughly similar platform, just that the LRM uses more of its mass for fuel instead of warhead.  The LRM can burn the fuel, which reduces its mass during flight so the engine has less work to do over time.

The SRM however has to keep its 2-pt warhead on board for the entire flight.  This is a warhead twice as heavy as the LRM warhead, imposing a constant and heavy penalty on range.

What would be interesting is changing missile internal explosion damage values to incorporate the missile fuel as well as the missile warhead.  A simple method would be that all missiles do 4 pts of damage when they explode internally, to reflect the fuel + warhead doing damage.  I would have gone with just 3 pts, but the Advanced Tactical Missile has a missile that does 3 pts of damage and still has the range of an SRM.


Or another option:
An LRM-20 launcher fires 1 salvos of missiles, and is lucky to get all 20 missiles to hit and do 20 pts of damage.  The same LRM launcher later fires a Thunder-20 salvo, putting a 20-pt minefield into a hex.  That 20-pt minefield has a chance to damage units wherever they walk in from, and only has a 50-50 chance to degrade (TO: AR, p176, General rules -> Minefields -> Conventional Minefields).  How does the same tonnage of Thunder missiles get to damage units repeatedly when as LRMs they can only do up to 20 pts of damage?

My recommendation: Thunder LRMs only add 1-4 pts to a minefield, based on their missile strength divided by 5 (so that LRM-20 would only add 4 pts to a minefield hex).

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #24 on: 23 December 2023, 11:53:47 »
Because ammo per ton is based on damage points - with the exception of AC/2s, and MGs (and Gauss) every ballistic weapon has 100 damage points per ton of ammunition - even the Artillery did, with the original, less absurd damage values (which the Cannon variants still use, despite nominally using the same ammo, hooray for plotholes); similarly with missile weapons (and gauss rifles) each ton of Ammo is equal to 120 points of damage.
Ammo per ton tends to constant across class, but not throughout entire categories (e.g. all ballistics).  Even within classes (e.g. ACs) there are sometimes specific outliers outside of the obvious ones (AC2): PACs only have 80 damage/ton, and HVACs are just weird.

It's also not true in general that missile weapons have 120 damage/ton.  XLRMs are 90, Thunderbolts are only 60, MRMs are a whopping 240, Narc and iNarc explosive pods have tiny damage potential, ATMs are 60/120/180 depending on the specific ammo type used, and Mech Mortars are 48 damage/ton except for the -8 which inexplicably is 64 damage/ton.

The point being that constant damage/ton wasn't really much of a consideration, so making everything the exact same isn't the "obvious" correct choice.  In fact it introduces logical inconsistencies: Making a reasonable assumption that explosive weapon damage like missiles are directly proportional to the weight of the warhead, then in the case of comparing a 120 damage/ton SRM, a 120 damage/ton LRM, and a 120 damage/ton XLRM, we'd have to assume that the rocket propulsion system is entirely weightless.

Sir Chaos

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #25 on: 23 December 2023, 15:45:31 »
Because ammo per ton is based on damage points

No, it isn´t, and has never been.

LRM do way less damage per ton of ammo than SRM because more of the weight of each missile is fuel rather than warhead, since they have a much longer range.
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Mechanis

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #26 on: 23 December 2023, 16:21:23 »
No, it isn´t, and has never been.

LRM do way less damage per ton of ammo than SRM because more of the weight of each missile is fuel rather than warhead, since they have a much longer range.
Uh, yes it is? Straight Word of God on that; that ammo per ton is based on weapons getting X damage to the ton, generally either 100 or 120, with some rounding (usually down but up in a couple of cases).
SRMs actually get less damage per ton if you account for the math being obviously incorrectly using the number of missiles rather than damage points; it's obvious that they're just on the 100/ton standard but mathed wrong (100÷2=50, 100÷4=25, 100÷6=16 and a bit; presumably dropped to 15 For Reasons, putting them at 90/ton standard like the AC 2)

But yeah, it's a known fact that ammo counts were decided by each ton of ammunition being X damage points, with the two most common being 100 and 120 and there being some outliers caused by Early Installment Weirdness (MGs, AC 2s) or Incorrectly Done Math Which Was Never Corrected (SRMs).

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #27 on: 23 December 2023, 19:31:31 »
Interesting that SRMs supposedly intended to be 100 damage/ton is apparently a well-known fact, as it's something I've only ever heard from one person in 2023.

Disregarding the obvious problems halving damage potential would cause with SRM viability and overall game balance, this would also imply fuel on Battletech missile weapons has negative mass.  Amusing, but I don't think the overall BTU is that advanced.

DevianID

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #28 on: 24 December 2023, 02:05:37 »
I think they just misspoke.  Srms are obviously 200 damage per ton since battledroids, as less range = more room for warhead.

As for the bomb bay tonnage.  Yeah a 5 ton internal bomb bay holds 5 bomb slots, but that doesnt mean 1 bomb slot is 1 ton.  The bomb bay is the launcher in this case, and the ammo varies by a lot.  In general most external stores are about .5 tons of stuff going by rl10s and fuel, but all the missiles are lighter.  I think the arrow is the lowest and the Alamo is next at 1 ton cargo weight 10 slots as live ordnance.

Sir Chaos

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Re: Three fixes for things that mildly annoy me
« Reply #29 on: 24 December 2023, 03:40:14 »
Interesting that SRMs supposedly intended to be 100 damage/ton is apparently a well-known fact, as it's something I've only ever heard from one person in 2023.

Disregarding the obvious problems halving damage potential would cause with SRM viability and overall game balance, this would also imply fuel on Battletech missile weapons has negative mass.  Amusing, but I don't think the overall BTU is that advanced.

Yeah, giving SRM the same damage per ton, when they have half the range, would make them a lot less attractive.

Personally, I´ve estimated missile weights (with my adjustment of 96 SRM per ton) like this: The bin and loading mechanism weighs 40 kg; SRM are 10 kg each, consisting of 8kg of warhead and 2kg of fuel, while LRM are 8 kg each, consisting of 4 kg of warhead and 4 kg of fuel.

That gives SRM twice the warhead weight as LRM, consistent with twice the damage; LRM have twice the fuel, and coupled with the fact that they are lighter, that gives them somewhat more than twice the range.
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century