3050 Surprised-Clans?

[Prospernia]

So, we know the Clans' advanced technology was a shock to the Inner-Sphere, but, was the Inner-Sphere's recent adaptation of Star-League tech a surprise to the Clans?

[O5P_Ghost]

I'd say no for waves 1 and 2 since those were units on the edges and probably hadn't been upgraded yet, especially since both the 12th Donegal (Victor's unit) and the Legion of Vega (Hohiro's) didn't have upgrades, per Lethal Heritage. Hell, Victor's Victor was a base model.

As they got closer to the interior they might see an upgraded mech or two, maybe even a company but it took until the pause for upgrades to be pushed out in large numbers.

Honestly, if I were a Clanner I'd LOVE to see a Star League tech mech. It is a greater challenge and the greater the challenge the greater the glory

[OatsAndHall]

I would say the fact that the Clans actually lost some battles, handily, to straight IS tech would come as a shock.

[Charistoph]

Considering they probably trained with it, or even dealt with Bandits who managed to secure some very old Klondike-era caches.  I don't know if "surprise" is the right word.

As it is, it was the ferocity and tenacity that surprised the Falcons and Jaguars such that their reports were... adjusted to demonstrate their glory.

[tassa_kay]

So, we know the Clans' advanced technology was a shock to the Inner-Sphere, but, was the Inner-Sphere's recent adaptation of Star-League tech a surprise to the Clans?

There is at least one mention I’m aware of about this: per WoK, the Blood Spirits were surprised that the Inner Sphere had achieved near-parity with their Clan technologically, and even surpassed them in some areas.

[Starfury]

The Clans knew that the IS had rediscovered lostech through Comstar and Wolf's Dragoons. The extent of its deployment is what was unknown.  Given that the Clans had already long bypassed Star Leauge capabilities, it was more simply seen as an opportunity for more glory or grounds for caution depending on the Clan. Era Report 3052, the various novels and sourcebooks of the Clan War, and most recently Tukkayid make that clear.

The IS wasn't at full wartime production until 3051, amd even had Tukkayid gone a different way, Star Leauge units would be a goal for every power. 

[RifleMech]

Since the Clans had captured and interrogated the Comstar crew of the Outbound Light I doubt they were surprised by the IS's use of SLDF Tech. I would think the Clans would be more surprised by the lack of SLDF Tech considering the current Reintroduction Dates has SLDF Tech being produced so much sooner than they were in the novels.

[SteelRaven]

The only real shock was the Com Guard mechs. Not only did ComStar have SLDF mechs but had the capability to retrofit 'Clan Buster' mechs just for said conflict. Though it was only a shock due to how arrogant most of the Clans approached that battle, the idea of superior industrial capabilities and total war had become lost to them.

[Charistoph]

The Clans knew that the IS had rediscovered lostech through Comstar and Wolf's Dragoons...

Not from the Dragoons.  At most by their last report, the only Lostech that was even close to been having seen by the Dragoons might have been NAMA's prototype Freezers.  The Helm Memory Core wouldn't be distributed till years after the Dragoon's last report to Khan Kerlin Ward.

[Gladius-XC]

I thought that the Smoke Jaguars played up the Inner Sphere’s rediscovery of Lostech as a way to push the Clans toward invasion. They learned about it through their interrogation of the Outbound Light’s crew.

[AlphaMirage]

Im actually fairly certain it was the formation of the Federated Commonwealth and obvious ambition of Hanse Davion that put a fire under them. Hanse was clearly angling to create a new Star League , one that could threaten them with a unified Inner Sphere.

[tassa_kay]

I thought that the Smoke Jaguars played up the Inner Sphere’s rediscovery of Lostech as a way to push the Clans toward invasion. They learned about it through their interrogation of the Outbound Light’s crew.

Im actually fairly certain it was the formation of the Federated Commonwealth and obvious ambition of Hanse Davion that put a fire under them. Hanse was clearly angling to create a new Star League , one that could threaten them with a unified Inner Sphere.

Per both the Wolf Clan Sourcebook and the Explorer Corps sourcebook, both of these things are true.

[BrianDavion]

one of them might be "meh whatever" but taken together you had an easily craftable narrative of "the inner sphere is uniting and recovering lost star league technology, if this occurs the unthinkable could happen and the star league could be recreated.. WITHOUT US"

[Charistoph]

one of them might be "meh whatever" but taken together you had an easily craftable narrative of "the inner sphere is uniting and recovering lost star league technology, if this occurs the unthinkable could happen and the star league could be recreated.. WITHOUT US"

Sounds like Myndo Waterly's reaction, too.  More or less.

[Liam's Ghost]

I'd say no for waves 1 and 2 since those were units on the edges and probably hadn't been upgraded yet, especially since both the 12th Donegal (Victor's unit) and the Legion of Vega (Hohiro's) didn't have upgrades, per Lethal Heritage. Hell, Victor's Victor was a base model.

While that may have been the intention of Lethal Heritage, I don't think it was specifically, clearly established to be the case.

I wouldn't be surprised if later writers decide Victor was actually piloting a 9K (or rather 9D) model with a heavy autocannon replacing the Gauss gun, and I don't think we ever got a close look at Hohiro's mech before it was destroyed.

Though I think part of the problem is that they most likely weren't sure how the new tech was going to show up at first, so Stackpole wrote Lethal Heritage on the assumption it would be 3025 stuff against clan tech, then TRO 3050 came out and said "actually a lot of this star league equipment was already in production when the clans invaded".

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Also TRO 2750 is presented as all of the stuff they mind out of the Helm core. Either way, more evidence for the need of a stronger editorial hand in those days. Keep everybody on the same page.

[Liam's Ghost]

To be fair, however, the Inner Sphere's methodology when it comes to procuring new equipment is so bad that I can believe the vast majority of troops were still using 3025 tech when the clans invaded despite having at times more than a decade to work out this newfangled equipment.

The Inner Sphere's military industrial complex makes French pre-dreadnought designers seem reasonable and consistent.

[Charistoph]

To be fair, however, the Inner Sphere's methodology when it comes to procuring new equipment is so bad that I can believe the vast majority of troops were still using 3025 tech when the clans invaded despite having at times more than a decade to work out this newfangled equipment.

The Inner Sphere's military industrial complex makes French pre-dreadnought designers seem reasonable and consistent.

That's what happens when the economy moves at the speed of plot.

[klarg1]

If you take the fiction, especially early clan fiction at face value, the clans appear to be honestly surprised and offended that the Inner Sphere had not somehow developed the concept of zellbrigen on their own.

It does not speak all that well for their powers of prediction or extrapolation.

[five_corparty]

Honestly, if I were a Clanner I'd LOVE to see a Star League tech mech. It is a greater challenge and the greater the challenge the greater the glory

As I recall, the Arkab legions were known to have carefully maintained Star-league era mech and equipment, and exactly what you said was exactly how the clans reacted- "finally, a worthy challenge!" sort of thing. :-)

[Charistoph]

If you take the fiction, especially early clan fiction at face value, the clans appear to be honestly surprised and offended that the Inner Sphere had not somehow developed the concept of zellbrigen on their own.

It does not speak all that well for their powers of prediction or extrapolation.

It's like they didn't have the military history of how the Kerenskies happened to be so far away from the Inner Sphere.  Or more accurately, they didn't teach it to their generations.  Oh, wait, Jade Phoenix trilogy pretty much says that.

[SteelRaven]

If you take the fiction, especially early clan fiction at face value, the clans appear to be honestly surprised and offended that the Inner Sphere had not somehow developed the concept of zellbrigen on their own.

It does not speak all that well for their powers of prediction or extrapolation.

For the Crusaders, Zell was the center of their entire universe and the only thing that mattered. They were so caught up in the game of gaining honor by ritual combat, they ignored anything else could exist. The Wardens tend to have a much broader prospective, actually remembering their own history and that the Wolf's Dragoons recon reports, while significantly dated, still existed.   

[RifleMech]

While that may have been the intention of Lethal Heritage, I don't think it was specifically, clearly established to be the case.

I wouldn't be surprised if later writers decide Victor was actually piloting a 9K (or rather 9D) model with a heavy autocannon replacing the Gauss gun, and I don't think we ever got a close look at Hohiro's mech before it was destroyed.

Though I think part of the problem is that they most likely weren't sure how the new tech was going to show up at first, so Stackpole wrote Lethal Heritage on the assumption it would be 3025 stuff against clan tech, then TRO 3050 came out and said "actually a lot of this star league equipment was already in production when the clans invaded".

To be fair, however, the Inner Sphere's methodology when it comes to procuring new equipment is so bad that I can believe the vast majority of troops were still using 3025 tech when the clans invaded despite having at times more than a decade to work out this newfangled equipment.

The Inner Sphere's military industrial complex makes French pre-dreadnought designers seem reasonable and consistent.

That's the issue with the reintroduction dates. When the novels and TRO:3050 came out SLDF Tech was still being reintroduced so there wasn't time for it to be spread throughout the IS forces. Since then the reintroduction of SLDF Tech has been moved back earlier and earlier. Now production quality SLDF tech is commonly available before the War of 3039 so by 3050 SLDF Tech really should be standard.

To be fair I think the IS industrial methodology has more to do with keeping Clan Tech on top than their production capability. They were able to reengineer and hand build copies of Clan Tech and mass produce lower quality versions within months of it's capture. By 3150 Clan Tech should be standard but the Clans need to remain all powerful so it isn't.

[Liam's Ghost]

The original TRO 3050 had advanced mechs such as the upgraded Jagermech and Victor having nearly reached production by the war of 3039, and other bits of advanced technology in active service during the war (like the endo steel and CASE equipped hatamoto). The original 3050 was also the book that established Comstar had handed over mechs with advanced technology to the combine.

It wasn't a gradual bit of continuity drift. It started pretty much from the beginning. Catalyst actually toned things down in later publications by giving us things like the Daboku, the introtech Hatamoto, and quietly retconning references to the Combine acquiring plans for the DD Jagermech during the 3039 war.

Frankly, Catalyst has made it much clearer and more restrained what was actually available and when after the Helm core.

[Liam's Ghost]

But again, I should point out that there's still a good reason for the armies of the Inner Sphere to not have been overflowing with star league tech despite their ten/fifteen year head start on the technology. And that's because they were implementing all this new production in the traditional inner sphere manner, which is to say as stupidly as possible.

As an example, just using the mechs mentioned in TRO 3050, the Federated Suns (not the entire Commonwealth, mind you, just the Davion half) was in the process of building or planning to build seventeen different mechs using advanced technology for their own use (not counting simple field refits like the Javelin or Whitworth, or mechs they were buying elsewhere like the Victor).

This is fairly typical of the time. So the great houses were rebuilding factories and infrastructure that hadn't existed in centuries, and were also immediately pulling those newly built resources in a dozen different directions on different projects with little real overlap. Of course there'd be years of delays actually getting any of that into the field in numbers.

My favorite bit of hilarious nonsense is how Johnston Industries decided to clone the Cataphract with almost entirely new and different parts, and no doubt sank many millions of cbills into research and development into making a then modern and fully realized design suited for production, but had no intention of actually building it because it was just a decoy to draw attention away from a completely different mech, no doubt with its own expensive development program.

Seriously, the Caeser is hilarious.

[tassa_kay]

For the Crusaders, Zell was the center of their entire universe and the only thing that mattered. They were so caught up in the game of gaining honor by ritual combat, they ignored anything else could exist. The Wardens tend to have a much broader prospective, actually remembering their own history and that the Wolf's Dragoons recon reports, while significantly dated, still existed.

That’s not as really as true as you might think. The Sharks, Cats, Horses and Hellions, all Crusaders just before and during REVIVAL, were all listed as Opportunistic (even Liberal in the case of the Sharks). The Coyotes and Scorpions, Wardens during the same time period, were listed as Strict.

[klarg1]

For the Crusaders, Zell was the center of their entire universe and the only thing that mattered. They were so caught up in the game of gaining honor by ritual combat, they ignored anything else could exist. The Wardens tend to have a much broader prospective, actually remembering their own history and that the Wolf's Dragoons recon reports, while significantly dated, still existed.

I agree with you, but I think it speaks to a mentality of not really paying attention to the enemy ahead practically until they were in range to shoot. Individual warriors were disappointed/surprised/angry at one tech level or another, but show no evidence of broad, strategic thinking on the topic.

[beachhead1985]

You're going to see some confused and confusing info on this one, because some of the novels *COUGH!* STACKPOLE! *COUGH!* were written from the perspective of recovered LosTech being effectively unknown as late as the mid-3050s, while more aware works illustrate that certain items and upgrades were over ten years old by the time the Clans invaded. When it is introduced, it's portrayed as *brand-new*, very rare and just as good as Clan-tech.

By the same token, some of those novels describe certain units having near-100% Clantech weapons and armour rebuilds...so the impression you get is somewhat extreme.

There is some stuff in a few of the sourcebooks noting that the Dragoon compromise stalling the invasion did have this effect; more-advanced-than-expected tech in IS hands. But what it seemed to do was more make Clan leaders angry than change things on the battlefield.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

You're going to see some confused and confusing info on this one, because some of the novels *COUGH!* STACKPOLE! *COUGH!* were written from the perspective of recovered LosTech being effectively unknown as late as the mid-3050s, while more aware works illustrate that certain items and upgrades were over ten years old by the time the Clans invaded. When it is introduced, it's portrayed as *brand-new*, very rare and just as good as Clan-tech.

You could always explain Victor not being familiar with Star League tech by him not being a very good student. I mean, dude doesn't know who Melissa Davion is.

[SteelRaven]

There is also indication that the stats had not been hammered out when writing those novels started (Vlad's Executioner) but I was just using handful of character reactions. Not everyone reacted the same and that usually due to expectations influenced by cultural divides and how information was filtered. As for SLDF tech, it has been talked up going into the Dark Age.