The Drone Carrier in TRO:3039 nerfed?

[Mostro Joe]

I've seen today that the Drone Carrier's little drones, in the TRO:3039, have no more the scan sensors equipment. I never noticed, but today I was trying to prepare a force for Alpha Strike where the Drone Carrier was present. And I've seen the little drones are not in the MUL. I wanted to convert the data myself, but...

There is a difference from TRO:3026 and TRO:3039 then. Why?

This way the importance of the Drone Carrier is nullified. The Drones, even by fluff, are a freat way to scan and recon the map.

[Gorgon]

TRO:3026 is originally from 1987 and predates Tactical Operations (where AFAIK drone control systems where first given rules) by 20 years.


I *think* the HiScout received an upgraded and rules legal re-release but the acompanying drones didn't. So it's not a nerfing of the unit(s) but trying to bring a unit that previously construction and game play rules in line with the current iteration of rules.

[Mostro Joe]

TRO:3026 is originally from 1987 and predates Tactical Operations (where AFAIK drone control systems where first given rules) by 20 years.


I *think* the HiScout received an upgraded and rules legal re-release but the acompanying drones didn't. So it's not a nerfing of the unit(s) but trying to bring a unit that previously construction and game play rules in line with the current iteration of rules.

TRO: 3026 had a revised edition where the little drones had their recon equipment. In the 3039 edition, the recon equipment is gone. The tracked drone has now just two "manipulators". But nothing is now fluff wise.

[mitchberthelson]

FYI, the Drones are in the MUL under "Hi-Scout Drone (PathTrak)" and "Hi-Scout Drone (NapFind)."

[Mostro Joe]

FYI, the Drones are in the MUL under "Hi-Scout Drone (PathTrak)" and "Hi-Scout Drone (NapFind)."

Oh, it's true. Thanks. Why they didn't pop up when I wrote "drone"? Bah.

They don't have the recon ability indeed.
Thats' not how they should work!

[glitterboy2098]

does "recon equipment" have any rules though? i don't think they ever did, and there has been a big push with all the reprints and update editions to ensure that all unit entries only cover stuff that has rules.

and gameplay wise.. they are still the way to scout the map. they just use the default sensors found on all vehicles. rather than some nebulous "sensor equipment" that didn't have battletech rules.

[nckestrel]

The sensor equipment was .25 and .55 tons.  No rules.
With fractional accounting removed as a standard rule, TR3039 made a lot of changes to vehicles, including removing the random sensor equipment with fractional tonnages.
It wasn't that the drones were specifically nerfed, it was fractional accounting that was removed, and the no rules equipment was removed rather than slowing the unit or removing armor.  (Warrior going from 10/15 to 9/14 becuase control equipment went from 1.05 to 1.5).

Correction: The Drones were overhauled to be support vehicles.  Possilby because without fractional accounting they didn't work at all, but I'm just guessing there. But the old Napfind had .75 for engine, .1 for control, .2 for left equipment, .2 for internal.

[SCC]

So I decided to look the Hi-Scout up in 3026, and the second paragraph is just beautiful, it's basically how everyone's going to run out of scout 'Mechs, because their the lightest and least well protected and always sent on dangerous mission so the Hi-Scout was developed as an actually expendable replacement.

[Chinless]

Correction: The Drones were overhauled to be support vehicles.  Possilby because without fractional accounting they didn't work at all, but I'm just guessing there. But the old Napfind had .75 for engine, .1 for control, .2 for left equipment, .2 for internal.

That was exactly the reasoning. They didn't work under the rules - with or without fractional accounting - so they were remade as support vehicles.

Chris

[Mostro Joe]

I understand.

But this way they are not eligible for the Recon special ability (that the Swift Wind mantains luckily enough).

I see that the drones could be not very useful in a TW scale, so who cares, but they could be in SBF (I really like that system, I m one of the few I suppose).

Oh and being them supporto vehicles It s why I did not found them on MUL at the First try   

[Lanceman]

The sensor equipment was .25 and .55 tons.  No rules.
With fractional accounting removed as a standard rule, TR3039 made a lot of changes to vehicles, including removing the random sensor equipment with fractional tonnages.
It wasn't that the drones were specifically nerfed, it was fractional accounting that was removed, and the no rules equipment was removed rather than slowing the unit or removing armor.  (Warrior going from 10/15 to 9/14 becuase control equipment went from 1.05 to 1.5).

Correction: The Drones were overhauled to be support vehicles.  Possilby because without fractional accounting they didn't work at all, but I'm just guessing there. But the old Napfind had .75 for engine, .1 for control, .2 for left equipment, .2 for internal.

So with the NapFind and PathTrack getting DRO on their AS cards but basically having no equipment on the record sheet, is this a rare case of fudging the card to keep the "point" of the unit?

[Wraithcannon]

We need new drones for this unit.

A VTOL drone and a Fixed wing aircraft for certain.

Years ago I made a VTOL drone by using a 3mm soviet helicopter miniature.

Link to the design in the Fan section.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,11156.msg264887.html?fbclid=IwAR3hJpR7L106pxnkyne4-fMliHPOp9-2ueXyPOnRzAN6oDVCSfvPgMiBM_A#msg264887

[nckestrel]

So with the NapFind and PathTrack getting DRO on their AS cards but basically having no equipment on the record sheet, is this a rare case of fudging the card to keep the "point" of the unit?

Their TR entry says

"Crew: 0
Note: Features Ultra-Light Chassis Modification and Drone (Remote) Operating System"

The RS doesn't say it because it was made in 2011 and technical limitations were unable to show it at the time.

[Lanceman]

Their TR entry says

"Crew: 0
Note: Features Ultra-Light Chassis Modification and Drone (Remote) Operating System"

The RS doesn't say it because it was made in 2011 and technical limitations were unable to show it at the time.

Totally missed that, was only looking at the RS and not the TRO entry.

[Maingunnery]

So we only need some variants with Recon Cameras to fix the issue?

[Mostro Joe]

I would not say "variant". They should be reworked keeping in mind what they originally were.

Ok, I undestrand that the Drone Carrier is not the unit everyone is mad for, but this way I cannot do what I thought I could. At least not "officially".

Using Strategic Battleforce, I wanted to include the drone elements (that by the way became 5 from the original 6 they were) as a unit, including them in the formation were the Drone Carrier also was.

Then I wanted to detach the unit, because drones can go as far as 25 hexes from the controlling Carrier, so I could use them to scan the enemy blips. But they don't have the recon ability!
That's because now they are some sort of "empty boxes" zipping around the battlefield. Sure, they can scan like any other vehicle can (5 hexes away if I'm not wrong), but fluff says they were a really good recon sysyem during the Succession Wars and TRO:3039 ruined that aspect.

[Mostro Joe]

So we only need some variants with Recon Cameras to fix the issue?

Anyway, in my SBF they have the equipment to have the recon ability. No matter what 3039 says

[glitterboy2098]

Then I wanted to detach the unit, because drones can go as far as 25 hexes from the controlling Carrier, so I could use them to scan the enemy blips. But they don't have the recon ability!
That's because now they are some sort of "empty boxes" zipping around the battlefield. Sure, they can scan like any other vehicle can (5 hexes away if I'm not wrong), but fluff says they were a really good recon sysyem during the Succession Wars and TRO:3039 ruined that aspect.

you realize that in the succession wars, none of their competition had the recon ability either? wasp, stinger, locust? nada. skulker wheeled scout tank? nope. Savannah master? zip. Ferret VTOL? no. packrat? no

the only one that does is the swiftwind.. and that only its ultra rare original 1st succession war configuration with the extra tons of comm equipment. the more common versions (the ICE, ICE-cargo, and ICE-speed) all lack it.

compared to those the Hiscout and its drone's are a superb recon unit. they can scout out a larger amount of territory than manned vehicles of similar collective mass, and they don't endanger human pilots. and since compact ECM technology is lostech, there aren't many things that can disrupt the drone control systems, other than just shooting the drones.

The saying about gift horses comes to mind here. You already have an excellent scouting system, why complain it lacks a feature no one else of the time has?

[Mostro Joe]

you realize that in the succession wars, none of their competition had the recon ability either?

That's why it was so special. Then what?

[Weirdo]

There's no issue here. The drones as-is are extremely useful at all scales of play. At the TW scale their purpose is to detect hidden units and call down artillery and other forms of indirect fire without risking a manned operator. You can literally play a hide and seek scenario with one side having zero humans on the mapsheet. I'm not as familiar with Battleforce or bigger games, but I'm reasonably certain they can do the same thing in those systems as well.

[Mostro Joe]

I'm not as familiar with Battleforce or bigger games, but I'm reasonably certain they can do the same thing in those systems as well.

As I said yet, they can. But not as effectively as the fluff says. They are "empty boxes" now that go for the battlefield and you can use them to scan enemy blips. But they do that like any other vehicle, same distance, no bonuses, losing the edge they have in the written background.

[Red Pins]

Interesting!  And very good timing, Since I just posted a new thread asking about Drone roles.

I've decided to use Herb's Nebula California rules allowing Drones to carry BA weapons and equip, the Improved Sensors, etc., should help with scouting.  Imagine a Drone using BA Stealth armor and equipment, Drop sensors on hardpoints, TAG, Laser Microphone ...

Lots of potential here.

[Weirdo]

As I said yet, they can. But not as effectively as the fluff says. They are "empty boxes" now that go for the battlefield and you can use them to scan enemy blips. But they do that like any other vehicle, same distance, no bonuses, losing the edge they have in the written background.

The edge is still there. The edge was always that they were far cheaper than any manned unit and without risking a pilot.

A Swift Wind costs 83 BV. The two Pathtraks and single Napfind you can get for that same BV will clear a mapsheet far faster than that single scout car, provide three times as many spotters if they find anything, and if one gets blown up, for all practical purposes you don't care.

And that ratio gets far better if you go heavier on Napfinds than Pathtraks.

[nerd]

Flaming datum from drones means the bad guys still opened fire, and you know they're out there.

[glitterboy2098]

The edge is still there. The edge was always that they were far cheaper than any manned unit and without risking a pilot.

A Swift Wind costs 83 BV. The two Pathtraks and single Napfind you can get for that same BV will clear a mapsheet far faster than that single scout car, provide three times as many spotters if they find anything, and if one gets blown up, for all practical purposes you don't care.

And that ratio gets far better if you go heavier on Napfinds than Pathtraks.

and if your group requires the control vehicle on the map.. a lance of packrats is 1,376bv.
a single hi-scout with its full complement of 3 napfind and 3 pathtrak drones is 488 bv. which means that i can field three hi-scouts and 9 each of the napfind and pathtrak drones (for a total recon compliment of 21 vehicles, giving more than 4x the recon frontage) for 1464, only 100 more Bv than the packrats.

or i can run two scouts with their drones (for only 3x the recon frontage), and save several hundred bv with which to take a better combat mech. or just use one hi-scout and its drones (for 50% more frontage) and have enough BV to take an extra medium mech.

[worktroll]

I would not say "variant". They should be reworked keeping in mind what they originally were.

But they are exactly what they were, when TRO 3026 came out. They had no Recon ability then, as it didn't exist. They're simply units on the board, which can be used for spotting and sticking their noses in to areas.

Yes, it might be nice to see new versions of drones for the Hi-Scout, with modern abilities. But it's incorrect to say the PathTrack and NapFind were nerfed. They only lost functionality against (hightened) expectations.

[Mostro Joe]

The edge is still there. The edge was always that they were far cheaper than any manned unit and without risking a pilot.

That's not the edge I'm talking about. I'm talking about the background in the TRO.

[Mostro Joe]

a single hi-scout with its full complement of 3 napfind and 3 pathtrak drones is 488 bv

Even the number of drones has been nerfed. Now they are just 5. Have you read the TRO:3039?

[Mostro Joe]

But they are exactly what they were, when TRO 3026 came out. They had no Recon ability then, as it didn't exist.

They had the equipment that today is disappeared.

If you had read my opening thread, anyway, I'm talking about the SBF system.

[glitterboy2098]

Even the number of drones has been nerfed. Now they are just 5. Have you read the TRO:3039?

it can control 5. it can carry 6. at least if using 3 of each of the types. (15 tons cargo space. 9 tons of PathTrack drones at three tons each, 6 tons of NapFind drones at two tons each)

the control limit just means it'll retain one drone back as a reserve in case one of the 5 it is controlling is destroyed or disabled. (or since the control can be reapportioned dynamically each turn, just rotate through drones with one staying put each turn)