Poll

Use in Ground Combat?

Brings The Noise
7 (25%)
Suppression Fire is Ammunition
16 (57.1%)
Very Distracting
5 (17.9%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Author Topic: The Value of an AC/2  (Read 1152 times)

Goose

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The Value of an AC/2
« on: 10 May 2024, 16:29:33 »
Does not any weapons fire, and I mean ANY, demotivate troops from advancing? :blank:

Are not troops taught to seek cover if they even think there's nearby fire?

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Charistoph

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #1 on: 10 May 2024, 16:50:09 »
AC/2 is for plinking where they can't plink back good.  Great for plinking so Ammo goes boom.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #2 on: 10 May 2024, 17:21:33 »

A single AC/2?  Very little except against fixed installations.  In numbers?  Good for turning fighters into lawn darts and combat vehicles into fixed installations.
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Daryk

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #3 on: 10 May 2024, 19:30:25 »
Even a single can make a lawn dart... ;)

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #4 on: 10 May 2024, 23:22:23 »
Range is more important than damage when you're trying to force lawn dart rolls.  Why carry anything but flak in a Blackjack-1?  Also, an AC-2 is as good as a -10 when hitting rotors or infantry.
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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #5 on: 11 May 2024, 00:26:25 »
shots that hit, do damage, shots you can't take because there's no target lock, do not do damage.  This is no matter HOW BIG the gun is.

In this way, an AC/2 is superior to an AC/20 all other factors being equal, in that you can take more shots, and more of them will hit across a broader engagement envelope.  The individual hits from the 20 do vastly more damage, but you have to actually HIT with them first...and in that sense, the AC/2 is grossly superior in that it grants a much larger circle where it can inflict damage, and larger circle where it's more likely to inflict damage than an AC/20.
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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #6 on: 11 May 2024, 02:32:21 »
An AC/2, or at least the Ultra variant, is there to taunt JadeHellbringer forever.
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Frabby

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #7 on: 11 May 2024, 03:26:51 »
Agree that this weapon has its uses.
On a strictly tactical level or in small engagements its tonnage to damage ratio is bad. And therefore it's a bad main weapon.
But on a larger scale I feel it is akin to a force multiplier because of that extra reach in all the scenarios where damage isn’t the critical point (lawndarting, crit seeking).
I would also add that long range also means superior to-hit rolls. An AC/2 has a short range (base 4) at 8 hexes where medium range weapons - including the ubiquitous medium laser, the feared AC/20 and the notoriously ammo-starved SRMs - are at (base 8) long range. This allows the AC/2 unit to either jump around like crazy for perfect range and best evasion with heat not being an issue, or at least be sure that those AC/2 ammo bins translate into actual damage on target at a much better ratio with a 4 point advantage on 2d6.
« Last Edit: 11 May 2024, 03:29:18 by Frabby »
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #8 on: 11 May 2024, 04:21:47 »
Well, yes normally AC/2 is virtually nonexistent, but it does have its perfect niche.

Daryk

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #9 on: 11 May 2024, 06:20:13 »
I did a thread a few years ago about replacing AC/5s with AC/2s: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,72301.0.html

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #10 on: 11 May 2024, 07:41:38 »
I view AC/2s like I do the light gauss rifle: its range and range-bands are its primary strength, but the inefficient mass:damage ratio means it's better as a vehicle weapon than a 'Mech weapon.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #11 on: 11 May 2024, 07:48:28 »
I view AC/2s like I do the light gauss rifle: its range and range-bands are its primary strength, but the inefficient mass:damage ratio means it's better as a vehicle weapon than a 'Mech weapon.

Agreed, particularly for VTOLs and hovers as a single or pair and in Triple (Pike) or Quad (Partisan) mounts in order to use that ammo in a reasonable period.

garhkal

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #12 on: 11 May 2024, 14:20:32 »
AC/2 is for plinking where they can't plink back good.  Great for plinking so Ammo goes boom.

Plus vs vehicles OR helos, you can get lucky and stop them dead in their tracks..

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #13 on: 11 May 2024, 14:30:26 »
Plus vs vehicles OR helos, you can get lucky and stop them dead in their tracks..

True, true.  And for VTOLs, it doesn't feel so bad when 2 points become 1, unlike a PPC's.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #14 on: 11 May 2024, 19:41:28 »
I remember way back in the first half of the '90s when MUSH/MUSE sites were still a thing, and I was playing on one.  Took a Warrior VTOL and got into a fight against a Wolverine.  I never got close enough to get hit, but by the same token, even emptying the whole magazine of AC/2 rounds didn't take down the Wolverine.  That taught me the AC/2 was a great harassment weapon, but not necessarily one that's going to do enough damage to win a fight on its own.
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #15 on: 11 May 2024, 20:25:20 »
The AC/2 gets much more useful when morale/forced withdraw comes into play. The damage might be chipped paint, but chipped paint is still damage dealt that wouldn't happen with shorter range weapons. Everyone knows that an AC/20 is dangerous, but relies on the possibility of catching someone in range. The AC/2 n the other hand is there for the certainty that someone will be in range, and there's enough ammo that you will probably be ale to take the shot. There's the classic debate of a decisive blow vs cumulative erosion, and the AC/2 is the extreme of choosing cumulative effects.

This is especially visible vs light units that have minimal armor to start with, where 2 damage might be a quarter of the max armor for a location. Striping an arm on a Locust while its still outside of range is very plausible, and can really change the "should I stick around" debate in short order. Peeling off half of a scout's firepower before the sides even close is substantial. That early damage becomes more impactful over the course of a battle as every shot never taken and every maneuver to cover damaged sides compound into significant advantages in actions taken and choices made.

Its also great at vulture duty for severely damaged units. Causing crits is as easy with a 2-point hit as it is with a 10-pointer when hitting internals, and is less of a waste than a PPC would be. The range also means you can do it from outside retaliation range. A fallen Warhammer is still dangerous, but a Vulcan can pick it apart much safer than a Phoenix Hawk that has more productive things to do.

TL;DR The AC/2 is a handy force multiplier to tilt a fair fight in your favor.
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Charistoph

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #16 on: 11 May 2024, 20:32:33 »
Even nastier when you have someone on your team that can roll Crits as if he literally had Human TRO, instead of just the SPA.
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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #17 on: 11 May 2024, 21:08:16 »
I remember way back in the first half of the '90s when MUSH/MUSE sites were still a thing, and I was playing on one.  Took a Warrior VTOL and got into a fight against a Wolverine.  I never got close enough to get hit, but by the same token, even emptying the whole magazine of AC/2 rounds didn't take down the Wolverine.  That taught me the AC/2 was a great harassment weapon, but not necessarily one that's going to do enough damage to win a fight on its own.

There's another way to view that fight. You spent 45 TURNS having that Wolverine's attention (where maybe the WVR was supposed to be elsewhere but unable). What if there someone off board that was the WVR's original goal, in Character? Sure the Fight might be a draw at face value...
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Cannonshop

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #18 on: 12 May 2024, 21:14:17 »
There's another way to view that fight. You spent 45 TURNS having that Wolverine's attention (where maybe the WVR was supposed to be elsewhere but unable). What if there someone off board that was the WVR's original goal, in Character? Sure the Fight might be a draw at face value...

Or consider what kind of shape that Wolverine is going to be in when the VTOL breaks off, he still has to carry out his mission, and his next opponent is undamaged, while he either retires to the rear for repair or faces someone who's at full capacity while he's been chewed on some.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #19 on: 12 May 2024, 22:09:40 »
Not to mention how frazzled that poor Wolverine driver was after me spending equivalent to 45 turns shooting at him from 19-24 hexes while he was effectively unable to respond.
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wundergoat

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #20 on: 12 May 2024, 22:11:01 »
The problem with plinking with AC/2s and the like from extreme range is your conversion rate on the hits is negligible.  Even if you are getting 10s to hit, a full ton of AC/2 ammo converts to less than 2 average SRM6 hits and if you are indeed giving the enemy zero hit opportunities, you are taking more than 45 turns to expend that ammo.

They aren't actually anything special for plinking.  They lack any inherent bonus to producing golden BBs, but AC/2 golden BBs are the stuff of legend so they are closely associated.

The best uses for an AC/2 are as AAA or as infantry field guns.  AAA cares about range and accuracy much more than damage, and AC/2s work very well in this role.  Infantry field guns really don't want to move or shift hex faces and the AC/2s extreme range lets them dig in and camp an arc, plus a platoon can pack 4 of the things with a ton of ammo each and four extra bodies to soak return fire.

garhkal

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #21 on: 12 May 2024, 22:45:28 »
Maybe if AC-2's weighed a ton less ea, that might make taking multiple of them, better.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #22 on: 13 May 2024, 03:50:10 »
Well isn't 5 tons still too heavy? Although that's still better than 6 tons.

I remember that improved AC/2 on IO(one of the clans experimental improved standard weapons) is 5 tons but otherwise same as AC/2. Perhaps exchange a standard AC to this equipment would be tolerated?

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #23 on: 13 May 2024, 09:45:55 »
Well isn't 5 tons still too heavy? Although that's still better than 6 tons.

I remember that improved AC/2 on IO(one of the clans experimental improved standard weapons) is 5 tons but otherwise same as AC/2. Perhaps exchange a standard AC to this equipment would be tolerated?

That all depends, I see a lot of 'tactical' thinking here, and not much 'strategic'. 

aka people thinking of it in terms of a single engagement that ends in ten rounds (the SRM comparison), not a battle lasting days. (remember, one round equals ten seconds).

Here's why the AC/2 isn't a waste at 7 tons (6 for the gun, one for the ammo, Seven, not six).

Because your opponent is taking damage and he can't reply, and that damage has to be repaired, and if it isn't, he's more vulnerable when the Blackjack backpedals and the light infantry he's been ignoring takes their swipe, or the cheap tank with its pathetic AC/5, or...get the picture?

It's an attrition weapon.  each plink of damage reduces the resistance to the next one, and in warfare, there's always a next one, the only way NOT to have the next one and still be in warfare, is to spend to repair it.

That expenditure comes from the same funds that include the food, water, ammo, and consumables that would otherwise be available (via tonnage transported, and those costs, as well as the cost of purchasing repair materials or, god help us, parts.)

It's NOT a "Wunderwaffen" by any stretch of the imagination, but it IS something that creates vulnerabilities and costs budgets, time, and tactical objectives to repair.

Why tactical objectives? because if you're replacing armor sheets, you're not advancing, you're not attacking, you're not maneuvering, you're doing repair work. (manpower, time, money, transport costs, transport time, other opportunity costs)

which is more expensive than buying more AC/2 ammo.  In a mobile battlefield, time is money, because the field is fluid, if the Wolverine in the previous example is looked at individually, he got a 'draw'...in that encounter, but now, he's got to chosse between going back to the rear to have multiple armor facings patched up, or advancing with pre-existing damage someone heavier or even MORE crit-seeky can exploit.  Weapons that might NOT have a chance to inflict internal damage or even mission kills, will be able to do so thanks to all them hits he couldn't answer, or he has to retire to the repair dock and hope the enemy counterattack isn't coming with fresh troops.

do you see how that works?  ON EVERY LEVEL, only shots that hit matter, and only hits that do damage matter.  but ANY damage matters-because pre-existing damage is a weakness that an opponent can, and will, exploit.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #24 on: 13 May 2024, 10:01:40 »
I do know the tonnage for the ammunition also counts but that's at least one ton anyways.

And perhaps we also need for the chin turret. For VTOL would be the most cheap and fast solution for this, and without the turret it needs to head to the enemy.

OatsAndHall

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #25 on: 13 May 2024, 12:26:27 »
IME, there's tactical value in "plinking" away at range. I might get lucky and pull a floating crit or a head hit, I might not. But, I give the opposition something to think about, regardless. If I'm going to go down this road, I usually take a stock Black Jack as I can put a gunnery 2 pilot in it, keep the unit cheap and be a PITA. And, most of the guys I play with won't ignore the Black Jack as either a) they're annoyed by it or b) they think it's an easy kill.

Charistoph

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #26 on: 13 May 2024, 13:03:01 »
The Blackjack is probably the best AC/2 vehicle due to its Jumping capability, as well as having 2 barrels.  All other Mechs only carry one Barrel (Commando, Dragon, Sentinel, Vulcan) or do not Jump (Clint, Mauler/Daboku).

The Warrior is probably the most manueverable (yay VTOL), but still only carries one Barrel.  Same with the Vedette.  The Tokugawa, and Whirlwind AC/2 variants offer twin barrels, but aren't much faster than a Blackjack, and cannot Jump.

The Pike carries 3 barrels, but is only a tread-head, so terribly slow.  The Partisan (AC2) and AC/2 Carrier offer more barrels, but are equally slow, if not slower.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2024, 22:26:46 by Charistoph »
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OatsAndHall

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #27 on: 13 May 2024, 14:00:46 »
The Blackjack is probably the best AC/2 vehicle due to its Jumping capability, as well as having 2 barrels.  All other Mechs only carry one Barrel (Clint, Commander, Dragon, Sentinel, Vulcan) or do not Jump (Mauler/Daboku).

The Warrior is probably the most manueverable (yay VTOL), but still only carries one Barrel.  Same with the Vedette.  The Tokugawa, and Whirlwind AC/2 variants offer twin barrels, but aren't much faster than a Blackjack, and cannot Jump.

The Pike carries 3 barrels, but is only a tread-head, so terribly slow.  The Partisan (AC2) and AC/2 Carrier offer more barrels, but are equally slow, if not slower.

I've played with most of those mechs and the Warriors a handful of times. I enjoy the Blackjack because he's just friggin' obnoxious.

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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #28 on: 13 May 2024, 17:00:30 »
The Blackjack is probably the best AC/2 vehicle due to its Jumping capability, as well as having 2 barrels.  All other Mechs only carry one Barrel (Clint, Commander, Dragon, Sentinel, Vulcan) or do not Jump (Mauler/Daboku).

The Clint is actually in the "no jump" category, since the CLNT-2-4T packs twin AC/2s, but your point still stands, and I don't disagree at all.  Also, the backup weapons for the Blackjack are great, making it even better, since everyone tries to counter the Blackjack by getting into AC/2 minimum range, only to be confronted with a facefull of medium lasers.
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Re: The Value of an AC/2
« Reply #29 on: 13 May 2024, 21:29:01 »
The Blackjack is probably the best AC/2 vehicle due to its Jumping capability, as well as having 2 barrels.  All other Mechs only carry one Barrel (Clint, Commander, Dragon, Sentinel, Vulcan) or do not Jump (Mauler/Daboku).

The Warrior is probably the most manueverable (yay VTOL), but still only carries one Barrel.  Same with the Vedette.  The Tokugawa, and Whirlwind AC/2 variants offer twin barrels, but aren't much faster than a Blackjack, and cannot Jump.

The Pike carries 3 barrels, but is only a tread-head, so terribly slow.  The Partisan (AC2) and AC/2 Carrier offer more barrels, but are equally slow, if not slower.

You only need so much speed on an AC/2 carrier though.  Chances are a good half of the map is In Range either way, and you'll probably need to stay stationary to combat medium/long range penalties.  It's only really bad because tanks can't climb hills good.