Author Topic: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?  (Read 1677 times)

Colt Ward

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Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« on: 10 September 2024, 14:25:44 »
What the title says, in 3140s what is the best armor to put on a dedicated scout mech?

Bonus question!

Which type would be better for a scout mech- bipedal, quad, or quad-veh?

Ignore that we may never see quad-vees mentioned again.
Colt Ward
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General308

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #1 on: 10 September 2024, 14:30:29 »
For a dedicated Scout I am going to go with Stealth armor.  Because your job is to avoid combat at all cost in that role

EPG

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #2 on: 10 September 2024, 14:36:13 »
As much as it can carry

Gotthammer

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #3 on: 10 September 2024, 14:52:46 »
Stealth is good, but if you want to use ECCM to detect things it requires fitting an Angel ECM.

Ferro Lamellor is my favourite as the crit usage isn't an issue if it's a light scout, not too bad for heavier 'Mechs, and gives a good survivability boost. Expensive tho.

Hardened can work, though is not optimal. You'd need to invest in endo and an XL or XXL engine, and then AES units, so is probably only worth it for a <30t Clantech machine. Yes you lose 1MP, but if you are going very fast anyway it's not an issue (and can throw in MASC or a Supercharger to compensate). Not optimal, but would be interesting!

Best is standard biped, just for critspace being the most optimal. I like me a good quad though, and the Jaguar makes a nice base to work from as a light scout IMO. Quad-Vee could work, but it will not be optimal. Being able to switch modes is theoretically great for a scout as you can take otherwise disabling damage and keep moving, but you do sacrifice a lot of tonnage and space for the conversion gear.

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #4 on: 10 September 2024, 15:04:48 »
Dunno if it's the best, but it seems to me like Reactive would be competitive, given that AE attacks like artillery or bombs are a pretty big threat to light units that typically rely on speed for protection.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #5 on: 10 September 2024, 15:05:25 »
For a dedicated Scout I am going to go with Stealth armor.  Because your job is to avoid combat at all cost in that role

As mentioned the problem w/stealth is that it boxes you into your own ECM field.  FREX, C3 slaves do not work with active Stealth.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #6 on: 10 September 2024, 16:16:27 »
Fast quad with Heavy Ferro, just enough crit space for EWAR and TAG, everything else goes into speed. Any extra tonnage goes into ABM pods or a heavy gyro

Hellraiser

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #7 on: 10 September 2024, 16:43:03 »
I'm assuming this dedicated scout is insanely fast, IE, Ostscout or Spider.

With that in mind I have to go Reflective.  Because Artillery isn't that common & Pulse Lasers are the only thing that will connect regularly.

It also doesn't stop me from having ECCM or C3 in effect.
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Church14

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #8 on: 10 September 2024, 16:53:11 »
I'm assuming this dedicated scout is insanely fast, IE, Ostscout or Spider.

With that in mind I have to go Reflective.  Because Artillery isn't that common & Pulse Lasers are the only thing that will connect regularly.

It also doesn't stop me from having ECCM or C3 in effect.

I’m seconding hellraiser. Reflective seems the winner to me.

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #9 on: 10 September 2024, 16:59:20 »
The downside is that if the other person does bring arty or aero or mortars, etc, or if you somehow end up falling out in melee range(to be avoided, but things do happen), all of those will hurt a reflec unit a LOT. Reactive armor has no such weakness vs lasers.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #10 on: 10 September 2024, 17:04:49 »
Precision Autocannons also do exist plus tonnage is critical on a scout mech so while special armor does provide protection so does going faster. Also if you are going to get ambushed it's likely by infantry shooting missiles or tanks firing guns at you not lasers

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #11 on: 10 September 2024, 17:11:51 »
As mentioned the problem w/stealth is that it boxes you into your own ECM field.  FREX, C3 slaves do not work with active Stealth.

So you leave the stealth off until you find trouble, then activate it while engaging the GTFO.
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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #12 on: 10 September 2024, 17:12:55 »
The downside is that if the other person does bring arty or aero or mortars, etc,
All of which falls outside the parameters that my GM usually plays in by requiring extra rulebooks or maps.
IE...  TW Rules + No Aero
If I was playing in an anything goes situation I might change my answer but Pulse is still the most common threat.

Precision Autocannons also do exist plus tonnage is critical on a scout mech so while special armor does provide protection so does going faster. Also if you are going to get
ambushed it's likely by infantry shooting missiles or tanks firing guns at you not lasers
Hidden units, another option that is rarely used for our "common rules" of scenarios.
Precision ACs are real, but they weigh a good amount, so the # of them is usually limited.
The +2 to hit is nice for sure, but, unless its an AC20, most of the time I'm not overly worried about it.
  (Exception note - An Annihilator w/ Quad-10s - Respect must be given to the ultimate "Breakthru Goalkeeper")

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17thRecon

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #13 on: 10 September 2024, 17:15:13 »
The Reflective Armor on face value makes sense, until I look at the drawbacks that have been mentioned.

Personally, I like the idea of Hardened; lose 1 MP, +1 to Pilot Skill rolls,  but be able to shrug off a lot of damage and a -2 crit modifier. Seems to cover everything that can affect a light (pulses, arty, etc) at a minimal loss of speed.

Then again, I’m just tossing an opinion, I am by no means even remotely any type of expert, 😆

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #14 on: 10 September 2024, 17:18:58 »
Personally, I like the idea of Hardened; lose 1 MP, +1 to Pilot Skill rolls,  but be able to shrug off a lot of damage and a -2 crit modifier. Seems to cover everything that can affect a light (pulses, arty, etc) at a minimal loss of speed.
Very valid.   In theory.
I think the issue is the # of points you get v/s the tonnage available.
A Fast Light is probably struggling just to fit in the electronics it wants w/ a couple weapons, let alone trying to get full use of Hardened by allotting twice the armor tonnage to Armor.  And if your not doing that then you just took the speed hit for no reason since 8 points of "half damage" is the same as 16 of full damage.

Hardened gets the most use IMO, out of slower designs where the % of the Engine is smaller & more tonnage is available to sink into Armor.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #15 on: 10 September 2024, 17:20:42 »
I'm curious about what a Scout Mech does with just TW rules Hellraiser. Indirect fire spotter why not use a VTOL or jump infantry. Hidden units and scanning objectives are kinda where I think Scouts are used. A Quad can be tougher than a fast wheeled or tracked vehicle, if it gets hit it runs having spotted the enemy.

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #16 on: 10 September 2024, 17:31:24 »
I'm curious about what a Scout Mech does with just TW rules Hellraiser. Indirect fire spotter why not use a VTOL or jump infantry.
You just hit the nail on the head.
For most uses, a Light Vee &/or Infantry will get the job done.
Light Mechs are most useful in "Mech only" games IMO.
If I'm fielding combined arms, I normally use Medium/Heavy mechs w/ Light/Assault vehicles.

As for what it can do.
C3S Spotter
ECM cover  (ECCM as well since we do use a few TO rules)
TAG Spotter  (For SG LRMs or just to allow Regular LRMs to hit while still shooting)
NARC Spotter  (Though I'm more prone to use a Medium for this job)

But frankly the biggest thing I see Light Mechs do is act as a big fat totally out of proportion "distraction-fex".
Seriously, want to split the enemy up, send off 1 Jenner/Mongoose/Javelin on a flanking move & watch as the enemy devotes a Medium/Heavy or 2 to block it.
Then hammer the main line where you now outnumber them.

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17thRecon

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #17 on: 10 September 2024, 18:32:12 »
Very valid.   In theory.
I think the issue is the # of points you get v/s the tonnage available.

It was very much a theory. I don’t have the mech design skills to try to experiment with it, which I’d love to do. I had an idea after reading up on Hardened Armor and reading the Vulcan (a personal favorite Mech) Mech of the week article to make one with Hardened Armor, plasma rifle, light ppc (because I like them), and some versions of the flamer and machine gun as a dedicated anti-vehicle/anti infantry mech with minimal anti mech ability. Seeing that most of the incoming damage would be lighter than typical Me h v Mech damage, the loss of speed seemed like a minimal disadvantage compared to being able to almost ignore smaller damage (infantry weapons, srms, etc) before it could kill the enemy. I kind of applied the same logic/theory to this question in a somewhat different manner. The idea would be that the light would still have enough speed to have a high TMM, so it’s creating misses on a lot of that potential damage and anything actually connecting would still have to then defeat the hardened armor aspect. Again, though, purely theoretical. 

Also, very valid point regarding the armor per ton issue. That’s part of the equation that would have to be looked at very hard. How much speed, how much weapons and equipment and still be able to have a serviceable shell of armor to protect the light.

Colt Ward

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #18 on: 10 September 2024, 18:46:49 »
I'm curious about what a Scout Mech does with just TW rules Hellraiser. Indirect fire spotter why not use a VTOL or jump infantry. Hidden units and scanning objectives are kinda where I think Scouts are used. A Quad can be tougher than a fast wheeled or tracked vehicle, if it gets hit it runs having spotted the enemy.

I am looking more at theory-crafting than what is typically found in phone booth games.  Further, while vehicles for recon can be dropped once . . . getting use out of them afterwards is a problem.  So for a invasion, the typical immediate recon assets will be ASF, overhead (orbit) DS, and light mechs.

IMO the point about hidden units being infantry & light/med armor makes a lot of sense.  They ARE going to be your static screening elements in hidden LPOP to keep scout/recon elements out.  A scout also has to worry about running into minefields IMO, not sure how that affects reflect.
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Starfury

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #19 on: 10 September 2024, 18:51:28 »
Standard armor

Pros
Low cost
No critical spaces needed
Allows for maximum installation of weight saving tech
Easy to repair and find

AlphaMirage

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #20 on: 10 September 2024, 19:18:53 »
Colt I believe mines count as ballistic weapons but it's definitely not energy.

 Im not sure if Quad turrets can peek over cover like the mast mount but a mast mounted probe or camera on a quad would be pretty neat for forward observation.

A quad can easily screen itself from attack with terrain provided it has the necessary movement points, plus it can sidestep which is pretty great.

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #21 on: 10 September 2024, 19:58:07 »
I'd go with Ferro Lamellor in conjunction with Null-Sig and Chameleon LPS Systems and DHS. The Mech would have the best protection and be hard to detect and hit while still being able to use most electronics. If C3 is needed turn off the Chameleon LPS.

EPG

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #22 on: 10 September 2024, 20:55:11 »
Standard armor

Pros
Low cost
No critical spaces needed
Allows for maximum installation of weight saving tech
Easy to repair and find

That was my answer as well.  Reflective does seem attractive if you’re going to get shot at by other mechs . However most of the hidden units you’ll stumble upon are going to be infantry or hull down tanks - not mechs.  Granted, most of them won’t do a lot of damage individually,  but it adds up.  As a scout you hope not to get hit by anything, but anything could get to you.  I think you’ve got to be equally prepared for anything. 

Stealth, turned off while scouting with the option of turning it on for escape and evasion does seem like an upgrade though.

Colt Ward

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #23 on: 10 September 2024, 22:28:16 »
Lights typically do not have a concern about having free crits . . . I mean you CAN do it if you pack on things- IS XXL engines, XL Gyro, IS Partial Wings . . .
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #24 on: 11 September 2024, 00:16:50 »

If the scout is an old-fashioned scout and just puts eyeballs on targets, directs incoming Long Tom/Sniper/Thumper rounds and/or indirect LRM fire (with or without a Recon Camera), and/or deploys Remote Sensors, then Stealth Amor is best because all those things can be done from an arbitrarily long distance, which plays to the longer-range modifiers from Stealth Armor.

If the scout is a modern scout and sweeps out areas with Active Probes, spots for friendly C3 networks, and/or spots for Arrow IV/Copperheads using TAG, then Reflec Armor in combination with a 7-10+ hex jump or a reliable 10+ hex walk or run is best because that equipment is only effective at short to medium ranges, which negates the utility of Stealth Armor.  Reflective Armor will help protect the scout against the pulse and TC-enhanced weapons most likely to connect against the scout’s +4 and +5 movement modifiers.  Just watch your initiative sequencing and don’t get caught in melee combat.

If the scout is really an interdiction unit, or anti-recon unit, or a pack hunter that’s expected to use ECM to interfere with enemy systems, take down other lights with its own weapons, and/or hunt heavier prey in numbers, then something like hardened, ballistic-Reinforced, or ferro-lamellor, maybe in combination with reinforced structure is the way to go because these units have to maintain weapons contact with the enemy, which means they’re going to get repeatedly shot at in return.  Thus armor that confers more effective armor points is best for surviving those encounters.
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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #25 on: 11 September 2024, 00:50:41 »
Yeah I agree with Natasha.  'Scout' has multiple meanings and each benefits from a different armor.

If you want a spotter, the void sig is even better then stealth, as you get a bonus standing still, which you want to do with spotting.  This overlaps with infantry, but mech spotters definitely have advantages in survivability which justifies the cost.

A scout mech meant to mix it up in close range, either with tag/ecm/c3 or shooting attacks, wants the most protection it can, as it wont have range so stealth wont help.  So this means max armor of whatever type, and if you still have room/tonnage, then upgrade to reflective or Reactive* or hardened/ferrolam.  As mentioned by others, if you are playing out of the battlemech manual, there is very little AE damage, so a non-melee light mech benefits from reflective.  If you are playing with tactical operations or lots of aerospace bombs, then AE damage is the #1 light/infantry killer, so you want a non-infantry unit scout that resists all the AE attacks from mines, bombs, and artillery, so you want hardened or Reactive.  Ballistic Reinforced only helps versus ballistic and missile weapons, so it doesnt help against artillery/bombs/mines (not counting artillery cannons, those are ballistic weapons+AE).

Sadly Reactive armor is probably the least used type in the game, and its main advantage, resistance versus AE explosive damage, is pretty unique outside of hardened armor.  So while I think reactive would be a great choice for light mechs to dodge artillery death, you probably have to take Hardened or Ferro Lam, as those actually have canon units to pick from, if you want to make an artillery resistant scout mech.

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #26 on: 11 September 2024, 11:25:37 »
I reread the post to make sure, and OP is looking for a Scout Mech.  I keep wanting to answer Reflective--but that would really be best on Strikers trying to use speed to do their damage, get out, and minimize the Pulse Laser return fire (+4 TMM type situation). 

For Scouts, I'd say use the space for Bloodhound/Angel ECM and other ewar packages and just mount as much Ferro Fibrous as you can?

General308

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #27 on: 11 September 2024, 14:36:52 »
As mentioned the problem w/stealth is that it boxes you into your own ECM field.  FREX, C3 slaves do not work with active Stealth.


Yes I know that but you said a dedicated scout.  If you have a C3 slave you are not a dedicated scout.  A dedicated scout has one job.  Locate the enemy report it's position and leave the area before it ever gets into combat.   

And honestly if you don't want to go stealth frankly standard mech armor is still a very good choice.  You just don't need all sorts of fancy armor types for a dedicated scout.   Now if you want a Scout/whatever else.  Then that may be a different story but it isn't the question possed.
« Last Edit: 11 September 2024, 14:38:46 by General308 »

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #28 on: 11 September 2024, 16:36:42 »
Assuming you're going to make it stupid fast, the biggest threat will be pulse lasers. Go with reflective.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Best Armor for a dedicated scout mech?
« Reply #29 on: 11 September 2024, 16:58:27 »
Assuming you're going to make it stupid fast, the biggest threat will be pulse lasers. Go with reflective.

There's something just so off in the Meta to have a Scout with reflective armor on it. Can't get past it and also I think mines would be your biggest strategic threat in a non post map conflict

 

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