Clan Jade Falcon IV: Same Volume, New Tricks!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Can we stop with the Nazi comparisons now?

[Church14]

you keep repeating this "they're seen as the Nazi SS" statement, but you're not providing any proof. 

Want a good reason why people might sign up with the falcons?
Same as Tara Campell, to provide a force and voice for positive change within the clan.
Want another one?
SOCIAL STATUS!
We've already seen this in other books of people signing on with clan wolf to get a better position in society for themselves and their family.

And as bad as you claim the clans are, the capellans are arguably worse.
The CAPELLANS are the "ancestral enemy" of the ROTS. the capellans where the ones who conducted the infamous "night of screams" after all

Regarding the SS or other IRL monsters comparisons, after digging through the clunky dialogue of the scene where she becomes Tara CampbellWolfFalcon, Tara flat out says the Falcons have brought every single boogieman story spheroids are told to life. So a rep that bad is called out, and Falcons showed up on Terra playing the part to the hilt. That, and Stone's last pillow talk with Alaric involved him warning Alaric that Terra will hate the clans.

Tara's 'conversion' to Falcons wasn't really voluntary. Basically "I don't want to order you to join them, but..." That, and the way the Falcons refer to her in Chaos Theory (AS Box novella) doesn't make it sound like she is well received.

Regarding the Capellans being worse, it's an odd one. Falcons overall have been far, far bigger monsters, but Capellans were probably worse monsters to the Republic. Both slaughter surrendering RAF as doctrinal practice, but Falcons also slaughter civilians. Capellans have the night of screams, and Falcons leveled Geneva. Given Geneva was essentially abandoned, there isn't the millions dead, but that (literally) hits close to home and sits fresh in the mind of Terrans. Though it may not be a relevant argument as it isn't a leap to assume Stone recruited volunteers with "wanna kill Capellans" already. So, there is a well to draw from there, but it seems like it would be mostly dry.

The better position in society is a valid angle though. We saw wolves do it before with such subtlety as "you like food? You like your family having food? Well do we have a job for you."

And Alaric's repositioning his pet Falcons as the Black Watch, Star League ideals reborn, rejecting the Mongol influences.

So yes, I can see people volunteering, for 'all of the above' reasons.

The concern is those are just words. Words that stand in direct contradiction to their deeds. Think of it this way, does elevating a group that slaughtered every RAF troop they got their hands on and wiped out Geneva to a position of extraordinary honor help the Falcons? Or, does it harm Alaric's image to the people of Terra?

Propaganda can/will work but it takes time that the fledgling league in iKEO doesn't have. Falcons, in a just universe, would need to prove they aren't monsters anymore and that's going to be a challenge. Alaric's likely refusal to hold any of them accountable for warcrimes won't endear anyone else either. 

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Is it not said (Tamar Rising) ? That Jiyi states he will not bow down to Wolves.

Also I agree, Jiyi has a "Clan" (Territory/Sibkos/Genetic Repository/Touman/"Nice" Policies), it puts him in a stronger position than Stephanie. I can see them coming to some arrangement, rather than Trial. As if Stephanie really wants to continue the Clan (in the traditional sense), she needs Jiyi. Ironically, he does not need her

[Church14]

How the Terran Falcons intend to survive long term really is one of the questions I'm more interested in for iKEO. It's not like the solution has to be in there, but a Khan that doesn't take action to secure survival in a year does not stay a khan and wouldn't deserve to.

- How Terran Falcons maintain numbers?
- How Terran Falcons maintain autonomy and agency and how long does it take for Alaric and Stephani Chistu to butt heads? I don't see the setting leaving the Terran Falcons as functionally the Clan Wolf Falcon Guards Cluster.

The Jiyi/Stephanie meeting is oddly not that interesting of a future plot point for me. Maybe I need to see Stephanie as a khan before I get invested in it.

[tassa_kay]

I feel like trying to predict the future of the Terran Falcons through the lens of how things used to be is kind of missing the point. Things are different now. In a very tangible way, prophecy has been fulfilled for the Clans, and they're entering a new age where they can finally make their Star League dreams (their entire reason for existing) come true and build a new future for themselves... but none of them have a roadmap on how to do that, so whatever comes next for the Clans could (and, more importantly, should) surprise us all.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

True, looking forward to evolution, IKEO comes out in November, quiaff ?

[Cannonshop]

you keep repeating this "they're seen as the Nazi SS" statement, but you're not providing any proof. 

Want a good reason why people might sign up with the falcons?
Same as Tara Campell, to provide a force and voice for positive change within the clan.
Want another one?
SOCIAL STATUS!
We've already seen this in other books of people signing on with clan wolf to get a better position in society for themselves and their family.

And as bad as you claim the clans are, the capellans are arguably worse.
The CAPELLANS are the "ancestral enemy" of the ROTS. the capellans where the ones who conducted the infamous "night of screams" after all

I look at Tara Campbell, and I see  somebody who's accepted an impossible task.  I use the example I used, because history doesn't have a lot of factions that did what the Mongol Falcons did, and still had survivors when all was said and done and it was over with.  Part of how that works, is that Alaric's got supernatural protagonist charisma, the meeting was in person, and she's from somewhere OTHER than Earth (or the other places visited by Malvina during her career).

and it wasn't a 'distant' thing for the people in the  Sol system, the crimes happened to them, not to some distant figure, which is what you're not grasping with teh Cappies-all their crimes happened To Someone Distant.

The Falcons did it to them, and to their families and neighbours.

There has to be a MASSIVE shift to values of 'forgiveness and redemption' your version of the Solar System-a hell of a lot more of it, than typically happens with real people.  In a real situation, Jade Falcon personnel wouldn't leave their cantonment in uniform (Minus 'mech or battlesuit) without armed guards lest the local ruffians take a shot at them, threat or reprisals or not.

at least, not in any identifiable way.   The Earthers have genuine identifiable reasons to hate them and those reasons aren't distant, they're immediate.  There are still living victims, those living victims have families, and they're not on some distant world.

What you're seeming to have difficulty grasping, is that it doesn't matter if Alaric out and publicly said these were a new and better Clan, what the civilians are going to see, is that he's keeping the war criminals alive, and appointed someone to 'hopefully' keep them in line.  They're going to see the war crimes every time they look out the window, or at a picture of someone they lost, or every time there's a reminder-and given the destruction, that's every single day for at least a couple generations.

Those civilians are your logistics tail, and thanks to Alaric's blundering, your recruitment base if you're tethered to the Sol system.

Harry Truman observed "All Politics is Local", he was correct in this observation.  People will sigh and say 'that's terrible' about an atrocity far away, that didn't touch them, they'll even rationalize or justify it-when it happens to someone else.

But this happened to These people.  The Cappies could practice ritual child cannibalism and it won't have the impact that the damage the Falcons did on Earth will have on Earth residents and Earth citizens and especially survivors.

[ColBosch]

Can we stop with the Nazi comparisons now?

Seriously. Enough.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

I was thinking more about Stephanie’s claim of being the “legitimate” khan. If she can’t beat Jiyi, it doesn’t matter how “legitimate” her claim is vs his.
....

She would first need to get in the position to demand the opportunity to beat him which won't be happening

Both Jiyi's and Stephanie's groups (only Jiyi actually having a Clan) claim the mantle of Clan Jade Falcon so any kind of Clan trial is out of the question because agreeing to it would mean that you accept the other's claim and in the process you would be relinquishing your own

So there would be no challenges or trials, not for Khanship not for absorption, only thing happening would be open warfare

And in open warfare Stephanie's group gets deleted on contact

Not only does she not have a Clan but even the troops under her command amount to less than average pirate band from Deep Periphery with even more trimming down on the way courtesy of Liaos and later Mariks

Jiyi has planets, factories, iron wombs and most importantly civilians

Stephanie has none of those, to paraphrase Carmine Lupertazzi the Terran Falcons are nothing more than a glorified crew

Only way she replaces Jiyi is if First Lord Alaric Ward does it for her but it would be Alaric's accomplishment not hers

[Cannonshop]

She would first need to get in the position to demand the opportunity to beat him which won't be happening

Both Jiyi's and Stephanie's groups (only Jiyi actually having a Clan) claim the mantle of Clan Jade Falcon so any kind of Clan trial is out of the question because agreeing to it would mean that you accept the other's claim and in the process you would be relinquishing your own

So there would be no challenges or trials, not for Khanship not for absorption, only thing happening would be open warfare

And in open warfare Stephanie's group gets deleted on contact

Not only does she not have a Clan but even the troops under her command amount to less than average pirate band from Deep Periphery with even more trimming down on the way courtesy of Liaos and later Mariks

Jiyi has planets, factories, iron wombs and most importantly civilians

Stephanie has none of those, to paraphrase Carmine Lupertazzi the Terran Falcons are nothing more than a glorified crew

Only way she replaces Jiyi is if First Lord Alaric Ward does it for her but it would be Alaric's accomplishment not hers

This... exactly this.

[BrianDavion]

When Kiyi started out he had a dropship full of gold and a buncha Solhama, maybe wait untik IKEO before proudly trumpeting that Stephene Christu has "nothing"eh?

[jimdigris]

Jiyi also had Sudeten, which had sibkos, factories, and an economy to harvest.

[Cannonshop]

When Kiyi started out he had a dropship full of gold and a buncha Solhama, maybe wait untik IKEO before proudly trumpeting that Stephene Christu has "nothing"eh?

a dropship load of gold, a bunch of Solahma, and a lot of infrastructure that Steph doesn't have, and wouldn't likely get because Alaric sacrificed all of his external support in exchange for a recently bombed out Earth with zero active shipyards and a traumatized population.

Jiyi also had Sudeten, which had sibkos, factories, and an economy to harvest.

Clan Wolf doesn't have the extra to share, in other words, all she's got are combat troops.

It could be said they (Steph Chistu's Falcons) are  in the same position Xenophon was in before the Persians turned on him.  That is, Mercenaries under a foreign lord, dependent on that foreign lord for all their support.

On the other hand, Jiyi has infrastructure, something everyone not me or you has already been pointing out as of the last book-which did not feature any serious threats moving in his direction.

There's an old joke you might consider;  The man who accepts rewards is in a position of submission; the man who hands them out is in the position of dominance.

Steph Chistu and Tara Campbell have to accept the basics necessary to field their warriors from somebody else.  Jiyi has to hand out rewards to others, because Jiyi is in a position to make them in order to hand them out.  This goes everything from rations to replacements.  In simplest terms, He has what they need, but he doesn't necessarily need what they have, on a day-to-day basis.

He's got the Iron Wombs, he's got the Genetic records, he's got the techs to run it and the funding to pay for it.  He's got the industrial base, in an area where 'Jade Falcon' is not synonymous with wartime atrocities and crimes-so he's got the population that is likely to at least treat him neutrally if not actively support him.

He also has the means to act without going to an external authority to ask 'mother may I' (or 'Ilkhan may I?")

He's got transport he owns or controls without needing to beg for it.

as Fire Scorpion pointed out:

[snip]

Only way she replaces Jiyi is if First Lord Alaric Ward does it for her but it would be Alaric's accomplishment not hers

Which in turn goes back to why Alaric made the Falcons into what he did in the first place, including putting Tara Campbell in charge of them-HE is the dominant in that (and every other) relationship with regards to Stephanie Chistu's piece of the Falcons. 

Alaric Ward gives out the rewards, not Stephanie Chistu, in that piece of Clan Jade Falcon.


as for your slur on Solahma, they're old men (and women) who've survived in a Young Man's profession.  Typically this makes them more dangerous gram for gram, and also makes them better able to train those Sibkos that Jiyi has, and Stephanie does not-which means if those sibkos graduate as Falcons, they're going to be more effective than whatever dregs Steph can draw together (blending the vigor of youth, with the experience base including what NOT to do.)

Go five years and Stephanie's going to NEED Alaric to commit forces if she wants the Khanship-and that's presuming that Alaric doesn't make a separate arrangement with Jiyi's faction in order to keep his forces pointed at the Cappies.

[Cannonshop]

Simply put, Jiyi Chistu's in the better strategic position, because you don't have to fundamentally ignore or change human nature for him to have the logistics and infrastructure...

but you have to do that exact thing for Stephanie's end of the Clan to be more than Alaric's praetorian guard.

[Metallgewitter]

I feel like trying to predict the future of the Terran Falcons through the lens of how things used to be is kind of missing the point. Things are different now. In a very tangible way, prophecy has been fulfilled for the Clans, and they're entering a new age where they can finally make their Star League dreams (their entire reason for existing) come true and build a new future for themselves... but none of them have a roadmap on how to do that, so whatever comes next for the Clans could (and, more importantly, should) surprise us all.

This feels almost like their first contact with the IS when the Clans expected the conquered populations to play ball but those people decdided to do what they did in the past, resist by any means jnhecessary. None of the Successor States will bow. And why should they? Furthermore while they have Terra now as you said they now need to formulate a plan oin how to move forward. The original Star League was a decades long project of political machinations to make the then 5 Houses submit to the rule of the 6th house in return for certain concessions especially economic and hereditary reasons (the SL accords secured the rights of the ruling families) What can alaric offer? More blood? Well good luck with that the Blakists tried that before and look how that turned out. And the Terran Falcons are right inm there with nothing but those 100 or so warriors left while having no land for themselves. Alaric might bequeath them a plot of land for themselves (like perhaps the Ilician Lancers had Sicily as their holding for training and administration) but that would not be enough. If they were to become nothing more then the new Blackwatch then I think they are destined to die out as real Jade Falcons. Even if they can at one point restart iron wombs with "pure" Falcon genes by that point there might be no real Falcon left. Unlkess of course the unit never leaves Terra for a considerable amount of time which has already proven wrong. Because this is imho the biiggest hurdle right now: none of the Terran Clans have a way of absorbing losses among their Clan warrior ranks. If Terrans fill their ranks it will filter through turning them slowly but surely into a whole new society. That is probably the story that will be told. Or does anyone think having Terrans who are mostly raised among ROTS doctrine / moral / culture will not change the Wolves / Falcons? Someone compared it with Diskworld I think "You won now we will absorb you" or something similar

[BrianDavion]

This feels almost like their first contact with the IS when the Clans expected the conquered populations to play ball but those people decdided to do what they did in the past, resist by any means jnhecessary. None of the Successor States will bow. And why should they? Furthermore while they have Terra now as you said they now need to formulate a plan oin how to move forward. The original Star League was a decades long project of political machinations to make the then 5 Houses submit to the rule of the 6th house in return for certain concessions especially economic and hereditary reasons (the SL accords secured the rights of the ruling families) What can alaric offer? More blood? Well good luck with that the Blakists tried that before and look how that turned out. And the Terran Falcons are right inm there with nothing but those 100 or so warriors left while having no land for themselves. Alaric might bequeath them a plot of land for themselves (like perhaps the Ilician Lancers had Sicily as their holding for training and administration) but that would not be enough. If they were to become nothing more then the new Blackwatch then I think they are destined to die out as real Jade Falcons. Even if they can at one point restart iron wombs with "pure" Falcon genes by that point there might be no real Falcon left. Unlkess of course the unit never leaves Terra for a considerable amount of time which has already proven wrong. Because this is imho the biiggest hurdle right now: none of the Terran Clans have a way of absorbing losses among their Clan warrior ranks. If Terrans fill their ranks it will filter through turning them slowly but surely into a whole new society. That is probably the story that will be told. Or does anyone think having Terrans who are mostly raised among ROTS doctrine / moral / culture will not change the Wolves / Falcons? Someone compared it with Diskworld I think "You won now we will absorb you" or something similar

the Discworld quote is proably a referance to an old quoite by Horace, a 1st century BC roman poet that said "Captive Greece has conquered her rude conquerer" referancing how after the Romans conquered Greece, Greek education, culture etc became a big thing in Rome, to the point where the romans where, arguably more influenced by the Greeks then vice versa. As others have said, the Wolves and Falcons are too small, they'll almost surely recruit heavily from their population on and around Terra and the worlds around it. My guess is former ROTS troops who served with the wolves and other freeborns will be given the ability to found new bloodhouses. My guess is that the falcons may see ambitious people moving to them as there is more chance to found a bloodhouse post terra then in the wolves. On the subject of worlds around Terra,  we saw falcons on Caph, it's not unreasonable to assume the falcons where working to eistablish their own land hold. Caph has a population of about half a billion people (as of 3130) and has military factories on it whose exact production output is unknown (the the ROTS sabtoged this before pulling out in advance of capellan troops. and restoring the factories could take years)  Caph it seems to me would be an IDEAL landhold for a jade falcon clan looking to restore itself. A healthy planetary population, that not only have no direct negative interaction with the clan, and given the cappies Occupied it breifly, it'd be easy eneugh to write the falcons as "Liberators". Caph also during the Jihad resented the inner sphere's treatment of the world during the sucession wars, and thus where easy to recruit into the Blake Protectorate, if this sentiment still exists the world would be ripe for Pro Star League propaganda. The world also has military factories but isn't specificly said what they produce, this combined with the lines being "carefully sabotoged" anyway, would make Caph a ideal place both in and out of character to begin to produce mechs for the jade falcons.

[tassa_kay]

When Kiyi started out he had a dropship full of gold and a buncha Solhama, maybe wait untik IKEO before proudly trumpeting that Stephene Christu has "nothing"eh?

You'd think after years and years of peoples' "that'll NEVER happen!" consistently being proven wrong on these forums when new products are released, they'd stop being so comfortable trying to dictate how things are going to go. Alas.

[Church14]

Someone compared it with Diskworld I think "You won now we will absorb you" or something similar

“No enemies had ever taken Ankh-Morpork. Well technically they had, quite often; the city welcomed free-spending barbarian invaders, but somehow the puzzled raiders found, after a few days, that they didn't own their horses any more, and within a couple of months they were just another minority group with its own graffiti and food shops.”

[Metallgewitter]

“No enemies had ever taken Ankh-Morpork. Well technically they had, quite often; the city welcomed free-spending barbarian invaders, but somehow the puzzled raiders found, after a few days, that they didn't own their horses any more, and within a couple of months they were just another minority group with its own graffiti and food shops.”

Kind of reminds me of how the Chinese Empire was conquered by a wild horde but said horde took on the mannerism of their conquered people as they were still a minority within the huge realm. In essence they only exchanged the ruling family but left the rest standing (with some alterations) Might be the case here as well. The Clans don't have the time to stamp their system upon Terra as the next war is basically right around the corner

[BrianDavion]

That horde was the Mongol empire, there was also a similer comment made about the romans and the greeks. "Greece has conquered her rude conquerer" This BTW I think is where the REAL issue with Jade falcon rapprouchment is going to be. Cultural drift between the two factions. Jiyi, as we know, is already making MAJOR changes, eistablishing new blood houses etc, coming to differant arrangements with the lower castes etc.

[Metallgewitter]

So what about the AML? Is this faction still Jade Falcon or is this something completly different? From what I understand is that they are ruled by merchants not warriors and they also fell out with Jiyi and his small realm.

[tassa_kay]

So what about the AML? Is this faction still Jade Falcon or is this something completly different? From what I understand is that they are ruled by merchants not warriors and they also fell out with Jiyi and his small realm.

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? The AML can be both Jade Falcon and something different, like the RasDom or the Raven Alliance or pretty much every Clan faction to some degree or another. The evolution of the Clans has been their theme almost since their inception.

Personally, I find the AML much more interesting than Jiyi's rump state, and is the one I hope sticks around the longest.

[jklantern]

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? The AML can be both Jade Falcon and something different, like the RasDom or the Raven Alliance or pretty much every Clan faction to some degree or another. The evolution of the Clans has been their theme almost since their inception.

Personally, I find the AML much more interesting than Jiyi's rump state, and is the one I hope sticks around the longest.

Has the AML gotten major focus in the fiction yet?  Because I genuinely want to know what the Hell they're up to.

[Weirdo]

To my knowledge, the most fiction they've gotten so far was in the Lone Wolves serial that was in the last few issues of Shrapnel.

[Gotthammer]

So far the AML seem to be Clan in most ways and happy with it - castes, eugenics program intact for warriors at least, looked to ally with Jiyi early on. Just without warriors in charge, so a step further than the Fox's incorporation of merchants. With how Jiyi is becoming more liberal I could see the AML and JFFZ reuniting into something akin to the Imperio. Whether it'll happen or not though is another matter ofc.

[ColBosch]

So far the AML seem to be Clan in most ways and happy with it - castes, eugenics program intact for warriors at least, looked to ally with Jiyi early on. Just without warriors in charge, so a step further than the Fox's incorporation of merchants. With how Jiyi is becoming more liberal I could see the AML and JFFZ reuniting into something akin to the Imperio. Whether it'll happen or not though is another matter ofc.

Any interactions between the Remnant Falcons and AML is going to center around Jiyi and Marena's personalities. But will it be like Hanse and Katrina, or more like Victor and Katherine?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The thing I want to know about the AML, which is going to determine how long it lasts, is what plans Marena has made for it after she's gone?

[Khalus Pryde]

Is it not said (Tamar Rising) ? That Jiyi states he will not bow down to Wolves.

It is further implied by Without Question that Jiyi will not submit to the Wolves and their new Star League. He sees all avenues as coming out from Terra as bad news for him and his Falcons.

And yes, the targeted release date for ilKhan's Eyes Only is currently November 2024 as per the Mercenaries Kickstarter's latest update.

[Gotthammer]

The thing I want to know about the AML, which is going to determine how long it lasts, is what plans Marena has made for it after she's gone?

Honestly what plans after the money runs out. The AML is paying a huge premium to snag mercs - Tamar Rising states they are driving prices up because of it - and are funded by the stuff on a few dropships.

Can't last forever unless they begin exporting mechs en masse, which they don't have the facilities to do since they only have a number of mobile factories, which are far less efficient than a regular one.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I haven't read all the Lone Wolves serials (need to fill some gaps in my Shrapnel collection) but it looked like she was heading away from hiring permanent mercenary forces and toward having a home guard that answered to her.  That was how the Lone Wolves ended up on Sudeten in Without Question.