Tell me about the Wolf Trap (Tora)

[Warpimp]

Why does this mech get a bad rap in the TROs? It seems completely servicable to me. What do you guys think?

[Ian Sharpe]

Its expensive and heavy for its intended job of hunting down Wolftraps.  The Mech itself, quite apart from that, works fine as a lighter version of the 3050 Centurion, though it could use some more armour over the second ML.  Its a fine skirmisher and can support Grand Dragons and other high end mediums and heavies pretty well.  The mini is a bit boring though. 

[va_wanderer]

The standard is a slightly-lighter Centurion- to me, it really didn't find it's own identity until the WFT-2.

That's a considerably nastier customer, especially if you give it a ton of Inferno ammo for the MML rack. Given, it's still got the age-old problem of a torso full of ammo with an XL engine, but at least there's some gear in there to crit-sink.

(and if it dumped half a ton of LMG ammo for CASE II...that'd be even better.)

[Demos]

Its expensive and heavy for its intended job of hunting down Wolftraps Wolfhounds.

Corrected for you.

The Tora / Wolftrap is a classic example for in-universe bad reputation. I know only a few people who complain about the CN9-D...

[Nikas_Zekeval]

While grossly similar the CN9-D being five tons heavier has three tons more 'warload', specifically it has twice the LRM ammo (24 vs 12), an extra ton of armor (8.5 vs 7.5), and Artemis IV for the LRM tubes.

In short the Centurion hits harder, longer, and is slightly better defended.  Now the Wolftrap does have both MLs facing forward vs the Centurions one fore and one aft arrangement.

Now take a look at that armor, the Wolf Trap has only about as much armor as the machine it was designed to hunt.  Range firepower is about twice the Wolfhound's on average, but only 12 LRM salvos mean that is going to run dry fast, or be husbanded for good shots only.  The all forward MLs make it better in close, save that is the last place you want to fight the Wolfhound.  Once he gets under your LRMs the Wolfhound is the closest it can get to matching a Tora's sustained damage output.

And that is one on one, the Tora is about 2.5 times the cost of a Wolfhound, and I like my odds taking a pair of 'Hounds against a single Tora.  In contrast the Wolfhound costs roughly the same as the machine it was designed to counter, the Panther.

The Wolfhound is still considered a viable light because it is a lean, mean, well armored and cheap energy flashbulb.  The Tora is expensive, and while that level of armor is fine on a high end light it starts looking weak on a mid range medium.  It is also ammo dependent, encouraging it's designated prey to try long range 'shoot and scoot' engagements to run down the ammo counters before turning on it.

[Nahuris]

Resurrecting another long dead thread..... necromancy at it's finest.......

I recently used one of these in a battle, and actually, it performed a lot better than I expected. Yes, it has torso ammo, with an XL, but it also has Case, and at 6/9, you shouldn't be giving your opponent a choice of shots.....

What I did find, is that the mini for it is small enough, that running along with my Stingers and Wasps, it blended right in... and used a Slug round from the LBX10 to introduce itself to the back of a heavy mech....side torso, and it found ammo on a heavy with an XL....

I have noted that battletech seems to have a habit of giving solid reliable designs a bad reputation, and fluff that kind of pushes them to the side... much like the Whitworth, this mech has repeatedly served very well.

As a fast cav design, it's great... 12 shots with an LRM usually outlast any engagement, and having 20 shots of autocannon ammo is great..... bet the 3050 Hunchback wished it could borrow some.......

As for cost, the BV value from the Wolfhound to the Wolftrap is actually only 9 points.... with the Wolfhound at 1061 vs. the Wolftrap at 1070.....

For the BV, it was an extremely effective design... especially since my opponent brought a lance of hover tanks to the field.

EDIT:  I went back and looked at the CN9-D --- and found that it has the exact same armor on the RT front, and only one more point to the rear.... they both have XL engines, and the CN9-D has one more ammo crit in that location... wouldn't that make it more vulnerable to an ammo critical?
Outside of that, the CN9-D only has 1 more point of armor on the CT, and on each leg, with 5 more points on each arm (that does help)..... Honestly, looking at the 2 of them, they really are almost the same ----- one gets 12 more shots with an LRM10, the other infinite more shots with it's additional forward medium laser.

Nahuris

[Headshot]

The Wolf Traps problem isn't the Mech itself, its the intended purpose.
An expensive, ammo gobbling, thinly armored XL Medium with standard heatsinks to hunt down a flashbulb Light? From the Combine??
And the thing originally even had 8 tons of armor! (fractional accounting we miss ya)
Had they sold it as a Centurion knockoff, people might have scoffed, but accepted the Wolf Trap as is, but as a dedicated Wolfhound hunter, it fails.
Should have just poured the resources into better Panther and Jenner upgrades...

[Martius]

Judging a Mech because of its fluff in the TRO is just wrong. I mean they called the Withworth worthless, too.

The Wolftrap is just a pocket Centurion. Remember it is lighter and use it just like you would use a CN-9D and it will do fine.

[Ferrosol]

Judging a Mech because of its fluff in the TRO is just wrong. I mean they called the Withworth worthless, too.

But the whitworth  is worthless. If you want jumpy fire support take a Griffin if you want a proper medium missile boat take a Trebuchet or Apollo. The whitworth is too small and slow and poorly armoured to do the job it tries to do.

[Martius]

No. It is not. But there are threads about this around so I will not say more about this here.  :)

[cold1]

The 2B is a decent mech.  It has more armor and a head capper though.  The medium X-pulses lasers are not bad backups at all to the gauss.  This is the Wolfhound killer they were thinking about.

[JadeHellbringer]

Stock 3050 model, not good- certainly not at its intended job. Wolfhounds aren't easy kills anyway, this certainly isn't any good at it. It DOES work well though as an armor-killer, with LRMs to pick at targets at range, the LBX to cripple via motive hits, and a couple of mediums because why not? At this role, it's a solid performer.

I haven't tried the other models, but they look like big improvements- as long as you still don't use the damned thing as a Wolfhound-killer, which it still isn't.

[Moonsword]

Exactly.  The Combine built a fairly good support, crit-seeking, and anti-armor 'Mech that has the speed to keep up with and supplement their fast cavalry formations or nearly pace a Jenner, then tried to use it to go after a flashbulb zombie with a reputation for being annoyingly hard to put down for its size unless you just utterly smash it with brute force.  That's something a Wolf Trap doesn't have.

If I were going to pick a Combine 'Mech to do the job of soloing a Wolfhound, I'd have to look strongly at grabbing a Komodo and sucking my enemy into bad terrain where his slight speed advantage is more than neutralized by the jump jets.

[JadeHellbringer]

Exactly.  The Combine built a fairly good support, crit-seeking, and anti-armor 'Mech that has the speed to keep up with and supplement their fast cavalry formations or nearly pace a Jenner, then tried to use it to go after a flashbulb zombie with a reputation for being annoyingly hard to put down for its size unless you just utterly smash it with brute force.  That's something a Wolf Trap doesn't have.

If I were going to pick a Combine 'Mech to do the job of soloing a Wolfhound, I'd have to look strongly at grabbing a Komodo and sucking my enemy into bad terrain where his slight speed advantage is more than neutralized by the jump jets.

The KIM-2A model in particular would be ideal for the job, able to jab at long range with its own large laser until you can get that sucker-punch in. The AMS systems won't help much in that case, but then again it's rare you see a Wolfhound operating on its lonesome.

I like this idea, good call- also, like the Whitworth, the Komodo is another Mech that gets a weird 'this thing sucks' vibe from the fluff for some reason, like it's incapable of fighting another Battlemech. Ten medium lasers (or five and an ER large) doesn't seem like it's going to suffer too badly. Then again, I'm biased in favor of the Komodo, being one of my favorite medium IS Mechs ever.

[Moonsword]

I suspect part of the problem might be the inevitable loss rate of throwing a relatively slow medium 'Mech that can't shoot past 9 hexes into action against the Clans.  Komodos have enough firepower that smart Clan warriors will pick them off quickly, although they might be sporting and let them get into range first if they're feeling particularly zell that day.

[Getz]

My biggest grumble with the Wolf Trap is the relative lack of armour.  I know there's only so much you can do with a 45 ton chassis but 7.5 tons of standard plate really isn't enough for a mech that would otherwise make a pretty decent medium trooper.  Interestingly there is enough space for ferro-fibrous which would raise the protection levels to (just about) acceptable, but the poor thing's plenty expensive enough already.

So yeah, as a counter to the Wolfhound it badly misses the mark - but as a relatively lean and mean alternative to the Centurion 9D it isn't so bad.

[packhntr]

Personally, I like the mech.  I have made several varients over the years and found that when keeping the armor as is and I drop in a long ranged weapon it's awesome.  It's not really meant to be a brawler.  I tried it a few times with so-so results.  I then made one from scratch and dropped teh speed a little, 5/8, and it was a great brawler.

[blitzy]

I do like the Wolf Trap, as its cheaper than the centurion, and it looks nice.  I think it was a missed opportunity for the DMCS.  A PPC instead of the LB 10-X and it coulda had a good deal of armor, and been a serious contender.

[JadeHellbringer]

I do like the Wolf Trap, as its cheaper than the centurion, and it looks nice.  I think it was a missed opportunity for the DMCS.  A PPC instead of the LB 10-X and it coulda had a good deal of armor, and been a serious contender.

As it is, it actually pairs up rather nicely with Grand Dragons, using cluster shot to exploit holes punched by the PPCs on its brethren. Nasty combination together, really.

[SCC]

How about the fact that's it's a post-Helm 'Mech armed primarily with NON-energy weapons?

[Kojak]

Honestly, I never really cared for the Wolf Trap until the 2B variant came along in TRO Prototypes. Now that's a solid little cavalry 'Mech.

[Red Pins]

I've found the base model a little far-sighted; a change to an MML system would help a lot.  So would JJs, but the weight required for the LB makes that impossible.

When the thing is being chased by a faster unit, the best hope is a friendly mech to hide behind.

[JadeHellbringer]

How about the fact that's it's a post-Helm 'Mech armed primarily with NON-energy weapons?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

[Redshirt]

I know that the fluff for the design says that it was designed to purportedly hunt down Wolfhounds. But if you wanted to (re)think about it, one can say that the Wolftrap came about as the result of  the battlefield realities of the late 3040's (pre-Clan Invasion), when the "next" war that the DCMS thought they would fight would be against the AFFS/LCAF/AFFC, which used large numbers of vehicles to supplement their mech forces and not the Clans.

[gooseman]

As it is, it actually pairs up rather nicely with Grand Dragons, using cluster shot to exploit holes punched by the PPCs on its brethren. Nasty combination together, really.

And Panthers, it complements them nicely also.

[Marwynn]

I always thought that the someone was being very clever.

In-universe, calling it a "Wolf Trap" and making it well-known that it's a counter to the excellent Wolfhound (when it's anything but) could be a massive misinformation campaign. As they geared up for another War of 3039, that may have been a thing.

Or, it could give the impression that Kuritan designers were crazy or unskilled... or that Combine production was not up to par. Which may actually have been the case, forcing some analysts to be more wary.

FedCom Analyst 1: "This is the Draconis Combine's Wolfhound killer!"
FedCom Analyst 2: "The Draconis Combine? What is it?"
FedCom Analyst 1: "It's a neo-samurai star-spanning empire we've been periodically at war with for hundreds of years, but that's not important now. Look at the Wolf Trap!"
FedCom Analyst 2: (Looks over the specs) "Surely, you can't be serious."
FedCom Analyst 1: "Of course I'm serious. And don't call me 'Shirley'."

A Red Herring 'Mech, of sorts. That, or it was just a naive failure for its role and constrained by the Combine's poor production capacity at the time. I've always found it to be a great wingman.

[Klat]

Would the WFT-1 work well with the WSP-3K in NTNU?

[False Son]

I thought the 2 and Beartrap were vastly important upgrades, considering the Combine pulled them back into action.  I never had success with the originals.  The 2 and Beartrap seem more focused and able to fight clans.

[Getz]

A thought occurs - how does the Wolf Trap stack up against the WLF-1 Wolfhound?  You know, the version that's a bit of a heat pig and only has a standard large laser for a long ranged weapon...

Let's see, it matches it for armour, handily outranges it with it's main weapons and can use it LBX and two lasers without heat concerns at short range whereas the WLF-1 will probably only be using three mediums.  The Wolf Trap could totally work as advertised against the low tech Wolfhound and if sarna.net is to be believed the Wolf Trap entered service a year before the WLF-2 version of the Wolfhound.

[SCC]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

A LB-10X, a LRM-10 and 2 ML's is more the sort of thing you put on a vehicle. One of the strengths of 'Mechs is that unlike Vee's they can build up heat and use DHS's, this design leverage neither