BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => The Inner Sphere => Topic started by: Spirit Cat Refugee on 01 July 2023, 15:18:17
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So I looked over the last 8 pages and didn't see one megathread for the Republic of the Sphere, but a bunch of individual threads on different parts of the ROTS. I thought it would be nice as a fan of the ROTS, even if it has been killed off, to have a thread to discuss its history, military units, wars, and main characters. Even if the ROTS as an official government is gone in the IlClan era, there are still many hooks for Republic fans in the new era, such as;
- What's going to happen to Jonah Levin?
- Various merc units or insurgent groups related to the Republic.
- What was Stone's real plan after coming back?
- Why did the people of Terra, who have known the Clans are gunning for them for over a 100 years, not enact a better insurgency against Clans Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon in HOTW ala the Japanese against Vau Galaxy?
Anything related to the Republic can be discussed here.
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In all honesty, I don't think Stone actually had a plan. I think he'd just spent so long being surrounded by people who were in awe of him that he'd started believing his own PR.
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In all honesty, I don't think Stone actually had a plan. I think he'd just spent so long being surrounded by people who were in awe of him that he'd started believing his own PR.
Not only that I think he got so much undue credit that everyone else also bought into his legend and forgot how much help he had to make everything work.
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In all honesty, I don't think Stone actually had a plan. I think he'd just spent so long being surrounded by people who were in awe of him that he'd started believing his own PR.
Stone had a plan. Given the situation he was handed when he woke up, which was deteriorated past his projections, it was a reasonable plan. Build up, focus efforts, rally the citizens, and then use the fortress - a strategic weapon unlike any other - to force a series of 1v1 with his enemies until the situation stabilized or he lost.
That said. I think Stone needed the people he had around him during the Jihad more than he realized. He didn’t have that help when he came back.
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Stone had a plan. Given the situation he was handed when he woke up, which was deteriorated past his projections, it was a reasonable plan. Build up, focus efforts, rally the citizens, and then use the fortress - a strategic weapon unlike any other - to force a series of 1v1 with his enemies until the situation stabilized or he lost.
That said. I think Stone needed the people he had around him during the Jihad more than he realized. He didn’t have that help when he came back.
Yes, and had the Wolves not invited the Falcons I think it would have worked. I still want to know why Stone didn't just pull all his forces back to Terra and let so many line regiments be destroyed in futile holding actions. Blood Will Tell seems to lead me to believe the goal was to buy time for mercs to show to do insurgency work, but that seem like a poor plan. Dropping the Fortress, having Operation Eruptio save the Federated Suns, and then pulling everything back to Terra and Northwind seems a better plan rather than fritter away 10 regiments outside of Terra.
Stone had a plan but what he didn't have was people who were willing to point out potential issues with that plan. Most of the RAF was in hero-worship mode for him, no one except Tucker Harwell challenged his ideas, and so when his ideas didn't pan out 100%, his plan eventually failed.
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Stone had a plan. Given the situation he was handed when he woke up, which was deteriorated past his projections, it was a reasonable plan. Build up, focus efforts, rally the citizens, and then use the fortress - a strategic weapon unlike any other - to force a series of 1v1 with his enemies until the situation stabilized or he lost.
That said. I think Stone needed the people he had around him during the Jihad more than he realized. He didn’t have that help when he came back.
Before he decided to turn himself into a popsicle, he had no plan beyond making the Republic into a cult of personality centered around him. He'd completely bought into the idea of his own greatness and squandered decades that could have been used to build the RotS up in strength, instead relying on the frankly insane idea that freezing himself for a few decades would let him wake up and "save" the Republic by virtue of being the legendary Devlin Stone.
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Before he decided to turn himself into a popsicle, he had no plan beyond making the Republic into a cult of personality centered around him. He'd completely bought into the idea of his own greatness and squandered decades that could have been used to build the RotS up in strength, instead relying on the frankly insane idea that freezing himself for a few decades would let him wake up and "save" the Republic by virtue of being the legendary Devlin Stone.
If I'm remembering my FM3145 right, Devlin Stone didn't think the Republic would 'need' saving. He thought that as time went on the Republic would grow stronger as all the Clans and Successor States collapsed under their antiquated ways of running things, and the example of the Republic would lead to planets switching over. He was hoping to wake up in 50 years to an Inner Sphere that was entirely subsumed by the Republic.
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Before he decided to turn himself into a popsicle, he had no plan beyond making the Republic into a cult of personality centered around him. He'd completely bought into the idea of his own greatness and squandered decades that could have been used to build the RotS up in strength, instead relying on the frankly insane idea that freezing himself for a few decades would let him wake up and "save" the Republic by virtue of being the legendary Devlin Stone.
Not sure what books and lore you read. More than any other leader in the setting, he spent considerable effort leaving multiple tools for his successors.
Argue that they didn’t work if you must. Call them stupid. But he absolutely left plans and weapons behind for his people.
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Stone froze himself and put a time on his cryopod so that he'd wake up at a predetermined point with the idea that there would be a crisis happening that he would fix. That is not the actions of a person who believes that their organization can go on without them. He did not have contingencies for multiple possibilities, and his "plan" to stop the Wolves appeared to be "give mechs to Julian Davian and hope that in the future, Julian would willingly sacrifice the FedSuns in order to ride to the Republic's rescue." That's not a plan. That's suicide with delusions of survival.
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Stone froze himself and put a time on his cryopod so that he'd wake up at a predetermined point with the idea that there would be a crisis happening that he would fix. That is not the actions of a person who believes that their organization can go on without them. He did not have contingencies for multiple possibilities, and his "plan" to stop the Wolves appeared to be "give mechs to Julian Davian and hope that in the future, Julian would willingly sacrifice the FedSuns in order to ride to the Republic's rescue." That's not a plan. That's suicide with delusions of survival.
Basically all of this is wrong.
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Io assume Jonah Levin will most likely become another bondsman turned ally for the wolves. The way he was portrayed sofar is of someone who is extremely fair to everyone while also being ruthless enough to do what is necessary (to a certain degree). And imho alaric will need someone to be the conduit to the Terran population. Given how small the Wolves army is he could never survive an uprising of 10-12 billion angry Terrans. Japan should be a warning to anyone.
the problem with Stone's plan is that the Wall had been running for 10 years already. To me that seems as if it was already wrongly used. The Wall has a timer so your future plans have to be tailored to that. The problem is that the Republic was so weak that they could not make proper use of the wall. It is a bit like the Castle Brians of the old Star League: they are not meant to stop the enemy they are meant to keep the enmy in place for reinforcements to arrive. Yes they used it to clean house and initiate destabilizing raids but that was not enough. It would have been more beneficial to produce material for their nominal allies while sending heavy strike units to help said allies. Like striking at logisitcs hubs that support ongoing invasions and best do it under Republic colours to keep the enemy try wasting units against the wall. Of course using enemy coloursa is fine too but as the Marlette deception shows the wall is a great way to kill enemies quickly
Terrans probably thought that the Clans will never make it as the Clans would have to plow through so many lines of planets that by the time they reach Terra they would be spend. Of course not maintaining the weapons the Blakists build (or even secretly building more of those like the Rattler or Wyrm) was a very big mistake. Probably the thing Stone never thought of: to maintain the Pax Republicana you need a very big hammer to enforce it (and nobody took the lessons from the Capellan Crusades seriously)
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Io assume Jonah Levin will most likely become another bondsman turned ally for the wolves. The way he was portrayed sofar is of someone who is extremely fair to everyone while also being ruthless enough to do what is necessary (to a certain degree). And imho alaric will need someone to be the conduit to the Terran population. Given how small the Wolves army is he could never survive an uprising of 10-12 billion angry Terrans. Japan should be a warning to anyone.
As much as I’d enjoy the 12 billion angry terrans causing problems… I don’t really recall angry local populations causing meaningful problems for occupation outside of one novel. It’s silly, it really is, but if we follow in universe precedent, Alaric shouldn’t have huge issues with Terra itself.
That said, the tiny glimpses we’ve seen makes me think Alaric wants the clanniest of clan Leagues, which could include instituting the caste system full bore on Terra. Which, per EA, even the Wolves’ “light hand” in the empire made the civilians hate them.
Could it be a plot line? Yeah. I don’t think it will be.
As for Levin and others in command helping with stable rule, it’s not an impossible story, but it would require Alaric wanting to compromise and reach out to the Terran civilians. I’m not 100% on all of Alaric’s stories, but I don’t recall him ever treating locals as more than serfs. If somehow Alaric changes tack for Terra (character growth opportunity?), maybe some of RotS command could cooperate with the goal of “stop the fighting.”
That said, Levin’s a soldier. I’d more expect a Republic resistance assembled around him to try to do something. Given the magnitude of forces in the area, I’d expect it to accomplish nothing meaningful. At least not unless the RAF turned merc and all the unaccounted for line units rallied to him.
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As much as I’d enjoy the 12 billion angry terrans causing problems… I don’t really recall angry local populations causing meaningful problems for occupation outside of one novel. It’s silly, it really is, but if we follow in universe precedent, Alaric shouldn’t have huge issues with Terra itself.
That said, the tiny glimpses we’ve seen makes me think Alaric wants the clanniest of clan Leagues, which could include instituting the caste system full bore on Terra. Which, per EA, even the Wolves’ “light hand” in the empire made the civilians hate them.
Could it be a plot line? Yeah. I don’t think it will be.
As for Levin and others in command helping with stable rule, it’s not an impossible story, but it would require Alaric wanting to compromise and reach out to the Terran civilians. I’m not 100% on all of Alaric’s stories, but I don’t recall him ever treating locals as more than serfs. If somehow Alaric changes tack for Terra (character growth opportunity?), maybe some of RotS command could cooperate with the goal of “stop the fighting.”
That said, Levin’s a soldier. I’d more expect a Republic resistance assembled around him to try to do something. Given the magnitude of forces in the area, I’d expect it to accomplish nothing meaningful. At least not unless the RAF turned merc and all the unaccounted for line units rallied to him.
I suppose my problem is if insurgencies aren't supposed to be a thing in the setting, then they really should never be a thing. But we have exceptions all over the place. Japan is one, Liao planets are constantly another.
And I feel Terra should be different because for 100 years they've known the Clanners are gunning for them. Then over the course of the Dark Age they saw the Clans getting closer and closer to them. Terra's not a border world used to trading hands. For the last 70 years its been part of one consistent government.
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So I looked over the last 8 pages and didn't see one megathread for the Republic of the Sphere, but a bunch of individual threads on different parts of the ROTS. I thought it would be nice as a fan of the ROTS, even if it has been killed off, to have a thread to discuss its history, military units, wars, and main characters. Even if the ROTS as an official government is gone in the IlClan era, there are still many hooks for Republic fans in the new era, such as;
- What's going to happen to Jonah Levin?
- Various merc units or insurgent groups related to the Republic.
- What was Stone's real plan after coming back?
- Why did the people of Terra, who have known the Clans are gunning for them for over a 100 years, not enact a better insurgency against Clans Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon in HOTW ala the Japanese against Vau Galaxy?
Anything related to the Republic can be discussed here.
To complletely skip most of the conversation above, I think a lot of the RAF troops left out there will gravitate towards Northwind or to mercenary units that have some honorable background. Influx of troops to whatever survived of the Roughriders, to the ELH, and to the Highlanders. Maybe a rebuilding of the GDL and Kell Hounds
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I'm not sure how any planet stays under Clan rule. Even shifting from Lyran to Combine control seems like a lot. Going full clan...I assume seeing the 31st Century equivalent of Henry Ford eat shit in the salt mines is satisfying, but it can't be enough to deal with a literal caste system and society geared around nothing but war.
I get that civilians revolt when the plot demands and not a second before, but this is Terra we're talking about. You'd think that the Word of Blake occupation would make them very opinionated about whoever is calling the shots.
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I'm not sure how any planet stays under Clan rule. Even shifting from Lyran to Combine control seems like a lot. Going full clan...I assume seeing the 31st Century equivalent of Henry Ford eat shit in the salt mines is satisfying, but it can't be enough to deal with a literal caste system and society geared around nothing but war.
Tamar Rising has a section addressing this. Contrary to Spheroid propaganda, the Jade Falcons (and implicitly other Clans) during Operational Revival didn't immediately shove everybody into a strict caste system but undertook a gradual approach to changing conquered societies. People could change their initial caste assignment, other concessions were made, natives were given a stake in upholding the new order, etc. Assimilation was a multi-generational process that largely worked when the Clans adopted this approach.
Clan rule tends to be more widely resisted when the Clanners drop this method and go for swift and brute force. Case in point being the Lyran worlds annexed during Malvina's reign, and even the Wolves seem to have stirred up their subjects in the Empire somewhat, although other sources claim the locals acclimated more easily.
As for Clan society being geared around nothing but war, that might officially be the case but most 32nd century Clans seem to have a wider interpretation of that than their Homeworld ancestors. As in, the economy is allowed to provide civilians with a much better standard of living in exchange for meeting warrior caste needs (it helps that the Sphere is MUCH richer than the Homeworlds). Not that much different from the Great Houses during the Succession Wars.
Basically, with Alaric and Terra's populace, it seems like a toss-up whether he'll go for the smarter approach of leaving the native society and economy minimally disturbed with just a change in boss (for now), or if he'll antagonize them into revolting by doing what Malvina did in the LC. Whatever the plot demands / TPTB want.
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Yay, another RotS thread!
My thinking regarding RAF survivors and resistance to Alaric centers around two questions:
1: Psychologically, is Alaric even capable of allowing the Belters to retain the autonomy that has been their #1 priority for almost a millennium now?
Since I think we all know the answer to #1, the next question is:
2: Is Alaric capable of *not* sending assets after the Belters that he absolutely cannot afford to lose if he wants to conquer the rest of humanity?
And before anyone says anything, I'm fully aware that my idea that Belter resistance will be part of what saves humanity from Clan domination is 100% a delusion. I don't care. It's fun. :)
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It bugs me that Stone would not have learned from the Battle of Luthien that Terra would cause Clans to work together in the same trial. The Wolves may not have liked the Falcons, but the Falcons were reliable. By contrast, the universe seems to have been making it a major plot point that the 32nd Century Ghost Bears are the least reliable entity out there. Stone was alive during a period where this ignorance is ignoble, particularly for a former MIIO operative. Luthien was one of the largest deals of the 31st century. I know it was for a plot point to advance the story, but it is problematic.
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When it comes to resistance to the clans you should not forget what was happening in that one shrapnel story that took place right after the Ilclan was ushered in: the demobilized RAf soldiers are still there which is abreeding ground for at least local partisan attacks. After all they have the skillset to cause trouble. Plus some are even gunning for RAf trators. It is like a mini civil war. And there isn't only Levin there is also Tucker and whatever Phantoms that went to ground and now most likely help Tucker conducting his Twitter campaign trolling the Wolves
The most fun plot line would have been if Stone on his deathbed had said to alaric as his last line before dying "oh btw the wall is gone now and then alaric gets a urgent radio call that the Wall generator just stopped working. I know that did not happen but it would have been funny. Coupled with messages of Capellan ships approaching the Sol system.
The question will be how Alaric will incorporate Terrans into his League. Promises of old glory might help (plus the choice between him or Liao) but a strict caste system? Hooo boy and here we go especially as Terra is a huge place and there is plenty of room to build up resistance cells (if the lore is to be believed the Battletech Terra has many untamed wilds thanks to the repairs done to the planet). And should the message spread that it was Alaric who got the Falcons to Terra then I would bet those that were hit the hardest by Malvina the Mad will never join him .
and let's not forget: Geneva was the center of Terra's system. Now that the city has been reduced to rubble ruling Tera will be a challenge (yes i know Unity city is being rebuild but that is rebuilding). Plus who knows what data bases the Republic erased just in case (I would assume they at the very least destroyed data belonging to their secret services to protect Phantom knights and other secret agents)
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When it comes to resistance to the clans you should not forget what was happening in that one shrapnel story that took place right after the Ilclan was ushered in: the demobilized RAf soldiers are still there which is abreeding ground for at least local partisan attacks. After all they have the skillset to cause trouble. Plus some are even gunning for RAf trators. It is like a mini civil war. And there isn't only Levin there is also Tucker and whatever Phantoms that went to ground and now most likely help Tucker conducting his Twitter campaign trolling the Wolves
The most fun plot line would have been if Stone on his deathbed had said to alaric as his last line before dying "oh btw the wall is gone now and then alaric gets a urgent radio call that the Wall generator just stopped working. I know that did not happen but it would have been funny. Coupled with messages of Capellan ships approaching the Sol system.
The question will be how Alaric will incorporate Terrans into his League. Promises of old glory might help (plus the choice between him or Liao) but a strict caste system? Hooo boy and here we go especially as Terra is a huge place and there is plenty of room to build up resistance cells (if the lore is to be believed the Battletech Terra has many untamed wilds thanks to the repairs done to the planet). And should the message spread that it was Alaric who got the Falcons to Terra then I would bet those that were hit the hardest by Malvina the Mad will never join him .
and let's not forget: Geneva was the center of Terra's system. Now that the city has been reduced to rubble ruling Tera will be a challenge (yes i know Unity city is being rebuild but that is rebuilding). Plus who knows what data bases the Republic erased just in case (I would assume they at the very least destroyed data belonging to their secret services to protect Phantom knights and other secret agents)
You hit the nail on the head: If Terrans can't handle something as vanilla as Wolves they will definitely not enjoy Liaos
Alaric just has to go on TV and say that if they really truly honestly don't want Wolves around then they will just go home and hand over the keys of the estate to Cappies
Looks like more than sufficient motivation
As for later events should Wolves win upcoming showdown we should keep in mind that chunk of territory rimward of Terra used to be called Tikonov Free Republic, that it used to be part of Terran Hegemony and that locals might not be the most ardent CapCon patriots out there
So like you said, old glory for Terrans... and maybe even something as simple as not being Capellan in case of rimward neighborhood
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There has been conversation in the Clan section about the fact that Clan models for governance are strictly incompetent for running even the sparely populated Inner Sphere worlds, nonetheless a golden one. Clan Wolf threw away the concept of a Clan having true civilians when it moved, so Terra in theory should be fairly awkward for them. There are more issues still, including the fact that figures such as the Bishop of Rome, Patriarch of Constantinople, and others are of a nature that Clan Wolf would not know how to navigate.
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Not to mention: Terra has the most diverse cultural mix of all IS planets. unlike a lot of IS planets which are often "cultural unified" Terra has everything. And don't get me started on the languages existing. If Alaric really demands a "unification" of everything (like Nicolas did on Strana Mechty) expect more resistance. Even with people like Tara on his side he might have to deal with angry people who don't want to speak clan. And it doesn't even have to be partisan attacks: strikes, sabotage, food poisoning, heck it could just be industrial pranking or ineffiecency in production. Japan showed what happens when everyone stands up. Or if the big armaments corporation demand they get compensated or their plants shut down. Though that might be where the Foxes come in
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In IlClan/Hour of the Wolf Alaric made of VERY clear he wouldn’t allow an insurgency. He also showed he’d be very lenient to everyone (as opposed to Malvina) should he win. Sure they would be Clan but he’s also been a bit less strict overall when it’s come to a Clan tradition: he raised how many freeborn units?
Now that’s not to say there won’t be an insurgency: Levin’s out there as well as the Ghost Knights… and people don’t take to kindly to former enemies that have switched their positions (aka the Jade Falcons). Things might not go as well as they hope but I can’t see everyone laying down their arms.
Also: it’s hard to convince an entire population for total war or the possibility of a full on insurrection/rebellion/ opposition to an invasion. Culture and politics aside: some people just don’t care enough to care. I don’t want to breach the rules (as this topic could go in that direction), but you have to have a VERY charismatic leader or a VERY worthwhile cause to convince the people accordingly (ala Amaris/ Kentares)
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Double post (sorry but a completely different tangent)
I totally forgot the real reason I wanted to comment on this thread.
What are some common Aerospace fighters that the ROTS would use for a heavy squadron? I don’t have my FM or Era Reports in front of me, and I’d prefer peoples opinions over the MUL for this one (yes I’m currently staring at the MUL lol).
The force will probably end up being two squadrons of Merc/ ROTS/ maybe FedSuns craft in the IlClan era but I’m having a bit of roadblock.
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In IlClan/Hour of the Wolf Alaric made of VERY clear he wouldn’t allow an insurgency. He also showed he’d be very lenient to everyone (as opposed to Malvina) should he win. Sure they would be Clan but he’s also been a bit less strict overall when it’s come to a Clan tradition: he raised how many freeborn units?
Now that’s not to say there won’t be an insurgency: Levin’s out there as well as the Ghost Knights… and people don’t take to kindly to former enemies that have switched their positions (aka the Jade Falcons). Things might not go as well as they hope but I can’t see everyone laying down their arms.
Also: it’s hard to convince an entire population for total war or the possibility of a full on insurrection/rebellion/ opposition to an invasion. Culture and politics aside: some people just don’t care enough to care. I don’t want to breach the rules (as this topic could go in that direction), but you have to have a VERY charismatic leader or a VERY worthwhile cause to convince the people accordingly (ala Amaris/ Kentares)
I’m expecting resistance to exist but go nowhere. That said:
- Alaric “made sure” by destroying a settlement (Atitjere), which still had some people left in it. Alaric sent the message loud and clear that anyone who wants to resist will have nothing left to lose. Convincing civilians to obey through, well, murdering civilians isn’t always gonna have the intended effect. This can be played either way by TPTB. Either as a rallying cry, or breaking spirit. Insurgents could also use the reality that Alaric - on a semi-consistent basis - is one of the only commanders in the sphere outside the falcons (and Dracs) who murders civilians and surrendering troops as a way to turn hearts and minds.
- EA shows that the “light touch? approach wolves used was still making enemies of most of the population. So we haven’t seen Alaric actually manage spheroid civilians well. He just had success forcing them to obey by threat of violence.
- The Terran wolves are a remnant of a remnant. They have a huuuuuuuuge problem with headcount amongst warriors and clanner lower castes. They can’t be everywhere and anywhere to deal with every problem if Alaric still wants to go on offense.
- I’d also have to check details, but I’m pretty sure there’s more ex-RAF survivors on Terra than wolf warriors. Wolves are super spread thin.
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Double post (sorry but a completely different tangent)
I totally forgot the real reason I wanted to comment on this thread.
What are some common Aerospace fighters that the ROTS would use for a heavy squadron? I don’t have my FM or Era Reports in front of me, and I’d prefer peoples opinions over the MUL for this one (yes I’m currently staring at the MUL lol).
The force will probably end up being two squadrons of Merc/ ROTS/ maybe FedSuns craft in the IlClan era but I’m having a bit of roadblock.
There are the simurgh and Schrack Omnifighters. Especially the Beta version of the shimurg carrying TWO improved heavy gaus rifles
I think for the moment alaric will be fine as most Terrans are probably in shock what happened. but the longer this goes on without any movement or improvement (remember Terra is now basically isolated behind the wall and the wolves aren't getting any reinforcements with the Dragoons marauding through the Empire) the situation might deterioate fast. Especially when he begins treating Terrans like serfs.
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In IlClan/Hour of the Wolf Alaric made of VERY clear he wouldn’t allow an insurgency. He also showed he’d be very lenient to everyone (as opposed to Malvina) should he win. Sure they would be Clan but he’s also been a bit less strict overall when it’s come to a Clan tradition: he raised how many freeborn units?
Now that’s not to say there won’t be an insurgency: Levin’s out there as well as the Ghost Knights… and people don’t take to kindly to former enemies that have switched their positions (aka the Jade Falcons). Things might not go as well as they hope but I can’t see everyone laying down their arms.
Also: it’s hard to convince an entire population for total war or the possibility of a full on insurrection/rebellion/ opposition to an invasion. Culture and politics aside: some people just don’t care enough to care. I don’t want to breach the rules (as this topic could go in that direction), but you have to have a VERY charismatic leader or a VERY worthwhile cause to convince the people accordingly (ala Amaris/ Kentares)
Alaric has butchered surrending units more than once, and even if he's better than Malvina, I always found it laughable that anyone would consider him tolerable. They're both still Clan, which means Communist caste system where warriors can legally murder civilians without recourse.
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warriors can legally murder civilians without recourse.
This is not (strictly) true. See WoK, pgs. 62-63. Also, per WoR, a Burrock warrior got sent to the Prinz Eugen specifically for murdering civilians.
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Clan wolf under Alaric's control has never engaged in such tactics, hell he leaves civilian population alone as long as they support the Clan as their directed. Most of the Wolf Empire is largely capitalism drive economy vs communism. So it's been a hybrid sort of economy, because Alaric was trained by his mother AKA Katherine Steiner davion
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This is not (strictly) true. See WoK, pgs. 62-63. Also, per WoR, a Burrock warrior got sent to the Prinz Eugen specifically for murdering civilians.
He was a Burrock, frankly I'm surprised they didn't just dome him like they did the rest of them. Not like they need an excuse.
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Clan wolf under Alaric's control has never engaged in such tactics, hell he leaves civilian population alone as long as they support the Clan as their directed. Most of the Wolf Empire is largely capitalism drive economy vs communism. So it's been a hybrid sort of economy, because Alaric was trained by his mother AKA Katherine Steiner davion
As long as Tucker can blanket Terra's net with the message that the Wolves invited the Falcons to Terra Alaric will be painted with the same brush of "Clans are fascists murderers and barbarians" which might make the Liao's the lesser of to evils (shocking I know) Though since we are in the IlClan period this will never happen.
The more interesting question is how will Alaric control the entire Terran system. Let's not forget, Luna and Mars have rather large populations and we also have the Belters. The Wolves should not have the manpower to effectively garrison the entire system with their 29 clusters left. This almost feels like the after Jihad wolf OZ with the wolves holding the capitals and not much else of some planets
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He was a Burrock, frankly I'm surprised they didn't just dome him like they did the rest of them. Not like they need an excuse.
He was sent to the Prinz Eugen (and subsequently escaped) well before the Burrocks were Absorbed.
Though since we are in the IlClan period this will never happen.
It's way too early to be making blanket statements like this. We have no idea what's going to happen at this point.
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It's way too early to be making blanket statements like this. We have no idea what's going to happen at this point.
Fair point. Though you don't declare Ilclan to have it die shortly after that as funny as that would be.
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As long as Tucker can blanket Terra's net with the message that the Wolves invited the Falcons to Terra Alaric will be painted with the same brush of "Clans are fascists murderers and barbarians" which might make the Liao's the lesser of to evils (shocking I know) Though since we are in the IlClan period this will never happen.
The more interesting question is how will Alaric control the entire Terran system. Let's not forget, Luna and Mars have rather large populations and we also have the Belters. The Wolves should not have the manpower to effectively garrison the entire system with their 29 clusters left. This almost feels like the after Jihad wolf OZ with the wolves holding the capitals and not much else of some planets
people expecting Tucker to be some sort of anti-Alaric Deus Ex Machina need to ask themselves the question "With what resources" Tucker is just some guy, sure he's got access to some info of stone's but unless stone laid plans for a insurgancy in case he lost, Tucker might not have a lot save some inconveniant facts, that might not be relevant anyway.
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Fair point. Though you don't declare Ilclan to have it die shortly after that as funny as that would be.
You might be conflating "ilClan" with "Alaric's new Star League". The Wolves will always be ilClan, even if they lose Terra in the next book and the new Star League never happens.
Though I happen to agree that this is just the beginning of things. I just think it's too soon for anyone to assume what's going to happen, because this is the first truly uncharted territory BattleTech has had in ages. It's exciting.
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also Era length is something that varies.
looking at the various Era's of Battletech, the Sucession Wars era was, practically speaking, 3025 to 3049 (before anyone comes in with "well actually" I'm noting battletech effectively started in 3025 and backfilled)
Clan invasion was 3050 to 3062
FCCW was 3062 to 3067 (marking the shortest era in battletech)
the Jihad was 3067 to 3085.
The Republic was 3085 to 3130.
With the Dark Age being from 3130-3050.
Now, the Republic era and the sucession wars eras. are notably defined by a generational time jump so may be worth noting that, with that in mind an era in battletech is often not THAT long at all.
I don't think the fedcom civil war is going to lsoe the crown for short era anytime soon though, but I suspect the ilclan era will be shorter then the dark age era.
Typically an era in battletech is defined by a major conflict, and is brought about by that conflcit ending or becoming irrelevant.
the clan invasion saw the smoke jags annialated and the clan invasion being "brought to an end" the fedcom civil war well.. obvious,
the Jihad yet again obvious, the dark age era was defined by the fall of the republic.
right now the ilclan era, IMHO hasn;t even seen it's defining conflict START
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I wonder who is going write big next story for the universe. Hour of the Wolf novel did change couple things of the story, frankly it was hoped universe would get back to story driven plots for the Universe. I have say while I didn't like every thing (okay alot of things) in HotW, i did like idea of the story in driver seat, guiding things along.
Question is the universe is now holding it's breath again, as we wait for the next shoe to drop. Such as the iKhan's eyes only plot book will reveal, frankly we can get on with the Capellan invasion of remnants of the Republic/Wolf Empire. (Its Wolf Empire, since they've not claimed it being anything other than extension of Clan Wolf's territories.)
Everything is all quiet.
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Looking at Levin I can see him running a underground resistance on Terra because most of the planets population is not gonna like being under Clan rule. Just ask yourself how you would feel if someone showed up at your door, told you no longer have a last name, you got to test to see what your new place in the world is, and possibly even be relocated. Terra is occupied territory. And Levin could run a very successful campaign with that type of scenario. The Wolves are bit exactly strong here and there going to have to eventually spread back out to retake the Wolf Empire again because Terra is the prize but it's the prize that has very few rescources left to exploit.
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I wonder who is going write big next story for the universe. Hour of the Wolf novel did change couple things of the story, frankly it was hoped universe would get back to story driven plots for the Universe. I have say while I didn't like every thing (okay alot of things) in HotW, i did like idea of the story in driver seat, guiding things along.
Question is the universe is now holding it's breath again, as we wait for the next shoe to drop. Such as the iKhan's eyes only plot book will reveal, frankly we can get on with the Capellan invasion of remnants of the Republic/Wolf Empire. (Its Wolf Empire, since they've not claimed it being anything other than extension of Clan Wolf's territories.)
Everything is all quiet.
From what I have seen from the star maps the Confederation can't exactly cut into the Wolf empire. There is the Free Worlds between them. Unless we get some cooperation going between both realsm (which might be possible considering that the Free worlds declared hunting season on the Wolves). But as you said there are some Republic planets left (like Northwind). Might be interesting how they are handled.
I think Tucker might be more something of a Twitter troll blanketing the entire Terran net with his version of history (Terrans have one of the most sophisticated communications networks) And conisdering how he manage to slip the net the Wolves have laid (and before how he slipped republic agents when he found Stone) I assume he might become a thorn in the Wolves side. furthermore the question is how the Wolves will organize Terra now: pushing down the rigid caste system isn't the best of ideas when your touman is a far cry from what it was and you have to deal with a planet 10-12 billion strong. Amaris had several divisions at his beck and call and the Terran resistance persisted until the liberation several years later. the main issue will most likely be the supply of raw materials. He can get them from the belt but the Belters are rather independent minded (though let's be fair Alaric has the advantage with his few Warships as power projection) or he has to rely even more on the Sea Foxes and the question will be what kind of price they will extract for this service. Then we have the factories itself. I think most of them are more or less automated so they should run rather smooth unless they get sabotaged. Strikes might be another thing: how will he deal with those? Hard crackdowns? Ask Amaris how well that went. And I for one still think that a good protion of Terrans still hate the clans for betraying them all those centuries ago. sounds like an uphill battle just to keep control of Terra unless he finds a unifying reason which most likely will be the war against House Liao
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Its comes down to how CGL want the plot of ilKhan role. I'm confused as heck what is going to happen.
I do remember the sneak preview ages ago of them thinking further fragmentation of the Inner Sphere would be good for game play. However, that was ages ago.
Staying in canon, not thinking what company will do. I think what will likely be most predictable event is the Capellans clash with the Clans.
Terrans have been mostly in isolation for centuries, until this conquest, not been effected in their life time. Republic cause people of the remains of the Republic be sick of isolation as it effected interstellar trade. Especially when you think that KF Drives were being used as part Hyperspace Bomb/Hyperspace Torpedo thing.
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You might be conflating "ilClan" with "Alaric's new Star League". The Wolves will always be ilClan, even if they lose Terra in the next book and the new Star League never happens.
Though I happen to agree that this is just the beginning of things. I just think it's too soon for anyone to assume what's going to happen, because this is the first truly uncharted territory BattleTech has had in ages. It's exciting.
Anal retentive note, but the wording about how one becomes ilclan leaves room to say that it’s not just the first to own Terra, but whoever owns Terra. Now, wolves will never, ever, ever, stop claiming the title ilclan. They could lose Terra and all the Terran wolves pushed back into the shredded remains of the wolf empire that holds basically just Geinah to Thermopolis and they would still claim the title. Yet, another clan that takes Terra could also claim ilclan. There’s room for a war of legitimacy if CGL chooses.
right now the ilclan era, IMHO hasn;t even seen it's defining conflict START
I agree. FWL accidentally taking 20% of the Empire was them getting their act together. The follow up will be an actual war. ilKEO will show CCAF vs wolves round 1.
But we know from RR the Alaric sure as hell hasn’t suffered anything resembling a sense of humility or humbleness. He will be starting a war in the back half of 3152 that is likely the defining start (maybe all) of the era.
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Bringing it back to sort of on topic. What does the RotS play in this
A) deader and more gone than BLP could have hoped?
B) a meaningless resistance movement that gives the same sort of problems to the wolves that “warships straining Raven’s economy” gives the Ravens?
C) an actual effective resistance?
D) a minor government in exile? Rally the RAF to a new homeworld and set up shop as a bulwark against Wolves?
E) a rallying cry for the nations that end up uniting (or at least not shooting each other) to face Alaric?
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Bringing it back to sort of on topic. What does the RotS play in this
A) deader and more gone than BLP could have hoped?
B) a meaningless resistance movement that gives the same sort of problems to the wolves that “warships straining Raven’s economy” gives the Ravens?
C) an actual effective resistance?
D) a minor government in exile? Rally the RAF to a new homeworld and set up shop as a bulwark against Wolves?
E) a rallying cry for the nations that end up uniting (or at least not shooting each other) to face Alaric?
A) Most likely.
B) That remains to be seen, the ships could be mothballed until economy grew large enough per conquest to support the ships and their upkeep. Ravens can lend their ships as long as their supported.
C) That possible in my mind, unless Wolves and Clans on the planet are doing Malvina level retaliation against the population.
D) Government was trapped inside the Fortress that was loyal to RotS, as the Fortress shrunk, its possible some of the less important people left. It would also hinge on armies deployed into the FedSuns to support resistance against the Combine (not counting volunteers) didn't make it back before the fall. They'd have find elements of the government and nevermind fleeing civilians whom I was under the impression were stripped of their JumpShips to begin within the fortress.
E) While this possible, the Gray Monday made impossible to organize anything easily. Everyone by 3150s were barely holding on what they had, nevermind fending off the two aggresseor states of the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation. The later is most powerful (known) State remaining, since they've been pawning for this day of conquest for very long time. Unless they get very bloody nose or Dania reigns them in after her "brother" dies, they maybe best hope fight the Clans of Terra.
Republic of the Sphere elements would linger in different forms, but frankly as organization faction? Unless they had a hidden world, such as those friendly neighborhoods Marik was trying setup or dead world (but habitable) off the maps, their hosed.
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B) a meaningless resistance movement that gives the same sort of problems to the wolves that “warships straining Raven’s economy” gives the Ravens?
The Ravens' economic woes resulting from the reactivation of their fleet is hardly "meaningless", Church. It's one of the reasons (the primary reason, in fact) their touman can't grow. And with the Ravens escalating their conflict with the FedSuns, not to mention their involvement with Alaric's new Star League, being stuck with only four Galaxies of ground troops is a big problem for them.
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The rational move for the Capellan Confederation is to annihilate two Clans in 1 push. If either side were to be left too weak to hold Terra, I could see Republic remnants taking it and trying to pull off a Comstar. The ultimate issue right now is that technically all of the Successor States rejected their Successor State status during the Clan invasion, and the only claimants to being such are the Clans. Clan Wolf as ilClan technically has an undefined status. If the Bears remain unreliable, the Horses see the Wolves as illegitimate, and the Ravens largely remain in the middle of nowhere, the ilClan should crumble. Even if the ilClan crumbles, no one recognizes it as House Cameron's rightful successor outside of the Clans. In other words, a Succession War would require renouncing claims made during the Clan invasion.
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The Ravens' economic woes resulting from the reactivation of their fleet is hardly "meaningless", Church. It's one of the reasons (the primary reason, in fact) their touman can't grow. And with the Ravens escalating their conflict with the FedSuns, not to mention their involvement with Alaric's new Star League, being stuck with only four Galaxies of ground troops is a big problem for them.
Their economic woes are a direct result of integrating with the poorest neighborhood in the near-periphery of the Inner Sphere, tassa, and then failing to actually INTEGRATE with it (economically, culturally, industrially....) Warships are logistics intensive beasts, and the Ravens didn't build up the local infrastructure in terms of educated workforce, convertible industries, or economic growth enough to actually support their fleet beyond subsistence levels....because they still haven't figured out they need to abandon Clanner Economics and embrace something that actually works.
Thus, after decades in the area and plenty of time to prepare, they're still gutting their local infrastructure to get ships they've had decades to prep ready in a hurry.
per Canon they have ONE shipyard, and it has a lot of damage (Quatre Belle), and that's after decades where they could've been feeding the expansion and positioning of additional yards, feeder industries like prospecting and vacuum smelting, built up the supply infrastructure and economy to have the slack to handle reactivation...They didn't do it, because they're Clanners, and still clinging to Nick Kerensky's misreading of Engels and Keynes.
They still think that military and economic are separate things and can be KEPT separate.
The more we learn about the Raven alliance the more amusing their struggles are, because they're so thoroughly unnecessary. A similar problem existed with the Republic, for similar reasons. Deeply centralized economies only produce progress in the very narrow short term, and only if they're run by actual geniuses with enough information to make intelligent decisions-neither the information, nor the geniuses are involved here, and their system is crippled by Clan Economic Theory and Clan Caste practices.
To give how this is related, I refer you to Jacob Bannson, from back in MWDA days, and the impossible glass ceiling that turned him from a potential major asset to the Republic, into a dedicated enemy of it.
The Ravens may not have to worry about their Outworlder subjects rebelling thanks to the spread of the Omniss creed, but the barriers built into their culture don't allow for the necessary type of growth to keep that fleet healthy for more than a relatively short period of time. Just like the Republic's built in barriers created internal enemies poised to disrupt it during a major crisis while also blinding those who maintained those barriers to the domestic threat.
It's actually not that unusual throughout the Inner Sphere and the Clans-Ideals and a segregated leadership doing the opposite of the practical or pragmatic everywhere BUT the battlefield, as if the battlefield was the only place where practicality matters.
The path to victory lies in securing victory and advantage before pursuing battle. Sometimes LONG before, depending on how dependent your core systems are on things like maintenance and munitions. The more complex a system is, the more it needs to be supported by a logistics chain of educated, industrial workers committed to doing quality work quickly.
That in turn ties to things like food supplies-not just soldiers need to eat, starved workers don't do good work and they don't do it rapidly. The Ravens are in trouble, they just don't realize it yet.
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... I'm really not sure why you wrote a novella to basically repeat my own point back to me, but thanks, Cannonshop. ;D
per Canon they have ONE shipyard
They have two, actually.
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They could be setting up the next secret faction. It seems like Republic troops and agents are going to end up in every house, except the Caps
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I could see the Republic returning as a minor faction much like Free Capella back in the day. A Goverment in Exile or a possibly even a minor state reformed in the Periphery though right now they make a excellent source of new Mercenary units. Might be interesting if Jonah Levin came back as the commander of a merc Regiment with the hopeless cause of retaking Terra. But needs that one contract to make ends meet.
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... I'm really not sure why you wrote a novella to basically repeat my own point back to me, but thanks, Cannonshop. ;D
They have two, actually.
...and you missed the point entirely. Rasalhague was 'poor' because it was 'new', but lots of industry went with it on independence and the Ghost Bears (and wolves) were able to profit off that.
The Outworlds Alliance has been historically Poor since its inception. There are Planets in the Inner Sphere with more population than the whole OA at it's Height.
as in, MULTIPLE planets, not just Earth.
With a higher average standard-of-living, even, and definitely higher GDP Per world, never mind collectively.
And warship fleets are capital intensive beasts. the support industries to KEEP those fleets working require vast numbers of educated, skilled workers and a strong industrial base.
Can you tell me what the Outworlds Alliance has been lacking for the entirety of its existence prior to the Ravens moving in? Keeping in mind that the Ravens lost a major proportion of their skilled labor base (and portable industrial equipment) during the retreat from the homeworlds? (I'll wait while you consult FM: Periphery States or the Periphery States handbook if you need a refresher.)
Then we can discuss the more recent sources showing that the Ravens consciously and intentionally did NOT INTEGRATE their economy with the Outworlders, instead confining themselves to political and military dominance.
That means they did NOT expand that pool of skilled workers and the industrial base necessary to feed those shipyards, and thus, the Fleet.
It means they're buying stuff (mostly components and complex supplies) from the Sea Foxes instead of making it for themselves.
Warships are made of nothing BUT complex supplies and maintenance intensive equipment. That's why so many got so mothballed-the previous generations of Khans couldn't afford to keep them operating.
Put this way: I just finished a major fanfic series that I had to absolutely ignore practical in-canon realities for-I actually KNOW which canon materials I had to subvert or pretend don't exist, just to make the stories possible. If I were being paid, I'd be the worst hack in the bunch for doing that and deservedly so.
THIS thread discusses the CANON, which means canon issues and canon restrictions both must apply until an author who's being paid for it says otherwise.
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You're now explaining my own point back to me (re: the Ravens' economic woes) for a second time now. This is exhausting.
...and you missed the point entirely.
To be fair, Cannonshop, it's often difficult to suss out what your point is when you start in on these meandering stream-of-consciousness text walls.
(I'll wait while you consult FM: Periphery States or the Periphery States handbook if you need a refresher.)
Do you realize how utterly condescending you sound when you say things like this?
Put this way: I just finished a major fanfic series that I had to absolutely ignore practical in-canon realities for-I actually KNOW which canon materials I had to subvert or pretend don't exist, just to make the stories possible. If I were being paid, I'd be the worst hack in the bunch for doing that and deservedly so.
THIS thread discusses the CANON, which means canon issues and canon restrictions both must apply until an author who's being paid for it says otherwise.
What the hell is even the purpose of this non-sequitur, other than to plug your own fanfic? ;D
I've said this before, but it obviously didn't take, so despite my utter loathing of having to do this, I'm going to repeat myself: Please. Stop. Explaining. Things. To. Me. Like. I'm. An. Idiot. Seriously, STOP. It's insulting and aggravating and I've watched this happen in SO MANY THREADS.
And with that said, I'm out. Between you doing these text walls and Church constantly complaining about HotW/BLP/Alaric/the Wolves as if he was personally victimized by the writing, I'm finding it very difficult to engage in any meaningful conversation about the Republic and its last days.
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To add to the "weakness2 of the Ravens: Warships are huge targets. If you use the typical way of eliminating them aka "Crash stuff into them" the Ravens would be bereft of their biggest asset soon. Plus any major combat strands your Warship in a system that might be hazardous to even start a salvage operation. The Ravens are something of a glass canon who at this point probably have the effect of shock on their side (big jumpships with big guns)
I think most of the Republic's assetts (Paladins and so on) might begin to join the remaining houses or even the wolves (we have examples like Paladin Zou first terrorizing the wolves and then joining the Mariks or Tara joining the Wolves and then Falcons) And while some Paladins died most are unaccounted (like Paladin Ergen the rising star of Shattered Fortress) amd they can either become something of a resistance or more likely the intermediate between the Clanner and the Terran population. The remaining Republic forces are probably trying to hold out (like the Liao's experienced on their latest conquests) as long as possible as they seem to have no possibility to flee. Especially as there is no boder with a "friendly" state left and who knows if they even have transports left.
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If a Paladin is ideologically motivated, they are more likely to work with a state that will allow them to advance the interests of their ideology. The states most open to having worlds governed under diverse ideologies are the Free Worlds League, the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth. In other words, it is possible to maintain localized Republic governments, possibly with official or unofficial unions with other Republic governed worlds, under said states.
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You're now explaining my own point back to me (re: the Ravens' economic woes) for a second time now. This is exhausting.
To be fair, Cannonshop, it's often difficult to suss out what your point is when you start in on these meandering stream-of-consciousness text walls.
Do you realize how utterly condescending you sound when you say things like this?
What the hell is even the purpose of this non-sequitur, other than to plug your own fanfic? ;D
I've said this before, but it obviously didn't take, so despite my utter loathing of having to do this, I'm going to repeat myself: Please. Stop. Explaining. Things. To. Me. Like. I'm. An. Idiot. Seriously, STOP. It's insulting and aggravating and I've watched this happen in SO MANY THREADS.
And with that said, I'm out. Between you doing these text walls and Church constantly complaining about HotW/BLP/Alaric/the Wolves as if he was personally victimized by the writing, I'm finding it very difficult to engage in any meaningful conversation about the Republic and its last days.
I thought I was inviting you to refute me, like "Here's my source, what do you have to contradict it?"
apparently I was wrong.
To add to the "weakness2 of the Ravens: Warships are huge targets. If you use the typical way of eliminating them aka "Crash stuff into them" the Ravens would be bereft of their biggest asset soon. Plus any major combat strands your Warship in a system that might be hazardous to even start a salvage operation. The Ravens are something of a glass canon who at this point probably have the effect of shock on their side (big jumpships with big guns)
I think most of the Republic's assets (Paladins and so on) might begin to join the remaining houses or even the wolves (we have examples like Paladin Zou first terrorizing the wolves and then joining the Mariks or Tara joining the Wolves and then Falcons) And while some Paladins died most are unaccounted (like Paladin Ergen, the rising star of Shattered Fortress) amd they can either become something of a resistance or more likely the intermediate between the Clanner and the Terran population. The remaining Republic forces are probably trying to hold out (like the Liao's experienced on their latest conquests) as long as possible as they seem to have no possibility to flee. Especially as there is no border with a "friendly" state left and who knows if they even have transports left.
A lot depends on how much in-depth the writing is allowed to go. We've seen "Everyone falls in line because the capital/ruler fell" (Fedcom Civil War), and we've seen "Conquest driven into the dirt by constant insurgency".
To me, the direction on that spectrum really will depend on how successful Stone's effort to create a "Republic" national identity actually was, and whether the Writing Team's going to lean that way, or lean toward rapidly erasing the faction from existence by handwavium so that the Ever Victorious Alaric (Steiner-Davion) Ward's story can be unhampered by a sustained and ongoing domestic insurgency near the seat of the IlClan's Power.
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Quick question for you good Republicans.
IlClan mentions the Melbourne Militia in Australia, It's a battalion of vehicles & infantry, no 'Mechs. I'm planning on using up a bunch of my remaining MW:DA vehicles that size well to BT to reproduce this, living in Melbourne, Australia, as I do.
Current plans is three companies, each with platoons of battle armour, recon vehicles, and something heavier, and possibly an HQ unit. Oh, and a platoon of Urbies (they barely count as 'Mechs) in the blue, yellow & red MFP scheme from the original "Mad Max".
The question is, would these guys (other than the Urbies) be in Republic Standing Guard colours, or something else?
Any advice welcomed! Thanks in advance.
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I thought I was inviting you to refute me, like "Here's my source, what do you have to contradict it?"
...Why though? It seemed clear to me that Tassa largely agreed, so no need to contradict.
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Quick question for you good Republicans.
IlClan mentions the Melbourne Militia in Australia, It's a battalion of vehicles & infantry, no 'Mechs. I'm planning on using up a bunch of my remaining MW:DA vehicles that size well to BT to reproduce this, living in Melbourne, Australia, as I do.
Current plans is three companies, each with platoons of battle armour, recon vehicles, and something heavier, and possibly an HQ unit. Oh, and a platoon of Urbies (they barely count as 'Mechs) in the blue, yellow & red MFP scheme from the original "Mad Max".
The question is, would these guys (other than the Urbies) be in Republic Standing Guard colours, or something else?
Any advice welcomed! Thanks in advance.
Lol, I would love to see a force in that MFP scheme. I did a resin Marauder up in Mad Max's Falcons scheme once.
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...Why though? It seemed clear to me that Tassa largely agreed, so no need to contradict.
THANK YOU.
Good grief, talk about missing the forest for the trees.
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I do have to laugh a bit that, even on a thread the OP created to be the "RotS Megathread", the Republic is still of secondary focus. Just wanted to point that out.
Anyway, trying to bring back the focus a bit, I personally don't think Stone had a secret plan when he went into stasis. From my reading of events, it felt like he did that as a kind of "King Arthur/King in the Mountain" situation; in which the "lost king" would return to save the nation at its darkest hour. Not a "wake me up in 50 years" or "my going into stasis starts the plan to take control of the Inner Sphere", but being a living "back up" plan. Of course, that proved to be a disaster, but I suppose it made sense to a man who was starting to grow senile and believed his own hype.
And to the "Alaric/Clan situation" on Terra, I 100% think the only way the "IKhan" holds onto Terra is through plot armor. There's no other way for his very ravaged and depleted forces to beat the massive number of troops Daoshen will bring down on them. Now, I would love it if CGL would subvert my expectations and have the Wolves booted off Terra by the Cappies, only for say, the Bears, to in turn kick the Liaos off and claim the ilClanship, but not gonna hold my breath. Therefore preserving the era of "ilClan" while keeping things very interesting. Sadly, CGL spent years building up the Wolves' conquest of Terra and assumption of the ilClanship, so I can't see a massive shift in plans being in the cards.
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That's the problem I have with the idea that the ilClan status is something that another Clan could simply come in and take from the Wolves. If that's the case, then why would any of the other Clans even respect that status in the first place? They could all just sit outside the Fortress and wait for the walls to come tumbling down and either take Terra from the Wolves, or wait for the Capellans to do it for them... and to me, that cheapens the concept of the ilClan. The Revival Trials OTP reinforces the idea that it's not about who holds Terra, but about who holds it first, because it reiterates that the sitting Khan of the ilClan becomes ilKhan in perpetuity and is able to name their successor.
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That's the problem I have with the idea that the ilClan status is something that another Clan could simply come in and take from the Wolves. If that's the case, then why would any of the other Clans even respect that status in the first place? They could all just sit outside the Fortress and wait for the walls to come tumbling down and either take Terra from the Wolves, or wait for the Capellans to do it for them... and to me, that cheapens the concept of the ilClan. The Revival Trials OTP reinforces the idea that it's not about who holds Terra, but about who holds it first, because it reiterates that the sitting Khan of the ilClan becomes ilKhan in perpetuity and is able to name their successor.
Which really strikes at the heart of the ilClan issue. The entire idea was a half-baked one more or less invented by the Jaguars and Falcons to keep the Clans from fighting amongst themselves during the invasion. It's predicated on a "scouts honor" promise that everyone will accept the first clan to get Terra as their perpetual leaders, but that's simply not how Clan society functions. The idea that the Wolves could lose Terra and remain the ilClan is just laughable. At the same time, the idea that the clans would follow the orders of the ravaged and maimed Wolves just because they control Terra is also unlikely. Ultimately, the Wolves' only have power if they can force their fellow clanners to listen to them, not if they control a symbol (irregardless of how important that symbol is).
This is really something I'd love to see CGL explore; can the IlClan continue as the ilClan if they lose Terra? Can a new ilClan rise in that situation? What happens if the ilClan can only hold it if aided by other Clans? Does that fatally weaken the Wolves' authority? Going in this direction, rather then "Wolves restoring the Star League, one planet at a time" is so much more interesting.
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I do have to laugh a bit that, even on a thread the OP created to be the "RotS Megathread", the Republic is still of secondary focus. Just wanted to point that out.
Anyway, trying to bring back the focus a bit, I personally don't think Stone had a secret plan when he went into stasis. From my reading of events, it felt like he did that as a kind of "King Arthur/King in the Mountain" situation; in which the "lost king" would return to save the nation at its darkest hour. Not a "wake me up in 50 years" or "my going into stasis starts the plan to take control of the Inner Sphere", but being a living "back up" plan. Of course, that proved to be a disaster, but I suppose it made sense to a man who was starting to grow senile and believed his own hype.
And to the "Alaric/Clan situation" on Terra, I 100% think the only way the "IKhan" holds onto Terra is through plot armor. There's no other way for his very ravaged and depleted forces to beat the massive number of troops Daoshen will bring down on them. Now, I would love it if CGL would subvert my expectations and have the Wolves booted off Terra by the Cappies, only for say, the Bears, to in turn kick the Liaos off and claim the ilClanship, but not gonna hold my breath. Therefore preserving the era of "ilClan" while keeping things very interesting. Sadly, CGL spent years building up the Wolves' conquest of Terra and assumption of the ilClanship, so I can't see a massive shift in plans being in the cards.
The opening text of FM:3145 does make it pretty clear Stone is freezing himself to stroke his own vanity. Not a backup plan, not a King Arthur situation, at least not planned purposefully by Stone.
So yeah he had no plan.
But that it turned out that is what actually happened, well that's why I have so many issues with Rock of the Republic and tend to agree as much page space as was devoted, there really needed to be more to tell the story that I believe TPTB wanted to tell. Too much was left on the editing room floor even by Hour of the Wolf.
As for me I fully expect the Cappies to self destruct at the worst time. Everything is setup for it and TPTB have a nasty habit of not really subverting expectations.
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This is really something I'd love to see CGL explore; can the IlClan continue as the ilClan if they lose Terra? Can a new ilClan rise in that situation? What happens if the ilClan can only hold it if aided by other Clans? Does that fatally weaken the Wolves' authority? Going in this direction, rather then "Wolves restoring the Star League, one planet at a time" is so much more interesting.
I have to disagree. The Clans being self-destructive and cannibalizing each other? That's a Tuesday. The Clans actually being allowed to move forward with fulfilling their purpose for existing and shaking up the status quo? Now that's interesting.
At the same time, the idea that the clans would follow the orders of the ravaged and maimed Wolves just because they control Terra is also unlikely. Ultimately, the Wolves' only have power if they can force their fellow clanners to listen to them, not if they control a symbol (irregardless of how important that symbol is).
I mean, this is actually what's unfolding canonically right now, so this is objectively untrue.
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The real question is how you get the Clans to actually do that?
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The real question is how you get the Clans to actually do that?
I guess we'll see as the storyline unfolds. But as TPTB have proven time and time again (most recent example: HotW), no matter how many of us hem and haw over how plausible or likely a particular scenario may be, if they want to get from Point A to Point B, they'll get there regardless.
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I have to disagree. The Clans being self-destructive and cannibalizing each other? That's a Tuesday. The Clans actually being allowed to move forward with fulfilling their purpose for existing and shaking up the status quo? Now that's interesting.
Frankly, without plotty shenanigans and handwaving, I just don't see a path for the Clans to unify behind the Wolves and start a conquering spree. Alaric lacks the military strength to impose his will on the other Clans, while the rest of the Clans have little reason to throw their efforts into reconquering the old Hegemony for the IlKhan.
At the very least, Alaric has to stop acting like Nicky Kerensky and start acting like Ian Cameron. His attitude won't win him any favors or loyalty at this rate. Though perhaps Alaric getting his teeth knocked in by the Liaos will teach him a bit of humbleness.
For me at least, the only thing that would really make the Clans interesting again would be a 2nd invasion by the Home clans.
I mean, this is actually what's unfolding canonically right now, so this is objectively untrue.
Which goes into my point about "plotty shenanigans and handwaves". Plus, that 's not entirely accurate. The Clans themselves are still very split, as shown by the rogue Nova Cats in EA and the fault-lines within the Ghost Bears in DD. The actual Clan leaderships aren't exactly rushing to aid Alaric or are taking commands form the Wolves. The Horses have completely rejected Alaric and the Wolves' authority, the Bears appear to want to negotiate the best position possible before fully signing on, and the Ravens seem to be moving on their own (its really hard to tell what they're up to at this point).
Finally, I'd point out that no one is really in a position to launch a coordinated reconquest of the old Hegemony, let alone force a Third Star League: the Bears have decided to start a "short, victorious war" with the Dragons (and we all know how those kinds of wars usually turn out), the Horses have rejected Alaric, and the Ravens are to far away to offer much help.
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A little Battletech history, it took the McKennas to create the Terran Hegemony.
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The IlClan status only lasts as long as the Wolves are a going concern. Taking Terra is all well and good but if a Clan or a Great House decides to wipe the Wolves out what then?
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The IlClan status only lasts as long as the Wolves are a going concern. Taking Terra is all well and good but if a Clan or a Great House decides to wipe the Wolves out what then?
If the Wolves are pushed off Terra (say by the Liaos), then I'd assume their authority is dead. No way the clans would listen to the clan who conquered, then lost Terra. Now, I'm sure the Wolves would loudly disagree, but they wouldn't exactly have a card to play. After all, the vague "ilclan" rules that were written in marker didn't say anything about what happens if the ilClan looses Terra later.
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Not only would their authority be gone, the Clan itself would be dead. Even if Alaric lived to retreat off Terra, he'd be left without a place to fall back to. He'd almost certainly sacrifice the Falcons and Jaguars in order to cover his retreat, and an attempt to return to the Empire is going to show that he's down to just a few remaining planets that the FWL, Dragoons, and possibly LC (assuming the writers remember that the LC is actually capable of taking actions) have yet to reabsorb. At that point it's hard to see how it ends with anything other than an overwhelming force dropping on him and crushing him.
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I do have to laugh a bit that, even on a thread the OP created to be the "RotS Megathread", the Republic is still of secondary focus. Just wanted to point that out.
Anyway, trying to bring back the focus a bit, I personally don't think Stone had a secret plan when he went into stasis. From my reading of events, it felt like he did that as a kind of "King Arthur/King in the Mountain" situation; in which the "lost king" would return to save the nation at its darkest hour. Not a "wake me up in 50 years" or "my going into stasis starts the plan to take control of the Inner Sphere", but being a living "back up" plan. Of course, that proved to be a disaster, but I suppose it made sense to a man who was starting to grow senile and believed his own hype.
And to the "Alaric/Clan situation" on Terra, I 100% think the only way the "IKhan" holds onto Terra is through plot armor. There's no other way for his very ravaged and depleted forces to beat the massive number of troops Daoshen will bring down on them. Now, I would love it if CGL would subvert my expectations and have the Wolves booted off Terra by the Cappies, only for say, the Bears, to in turn kick the Liaos off and claim the ilClanship, but not gonna hold my breath. Therefore preserving the era of "ilClan" while keeping things very interesting. Sadly, CGL spent years building up the Wolves' conquest of Terra and assumption of the ilClanship, so I can't see a massive shift in plans being in the cards.
Your commment on the thread hits closer to the core of the matter than I think people might be comfortable admitting. The RoTS began as a MacGuffin that really only existed in terms of its relationship to player factions, and it really hasn't evolved past that despite being frocked up to 'full faction status' what, sixteen, seventeen years ago?
The whole thing's been in 'reaction mode' for so long there's no real character to the character for it beyond its relationship to the factions that actually got the ink.
In another thread, I called it a "Janeway problem" because the characterization has been nothing except inconsistent, when it's not being outright passive.
and it got the single worst defense plan in Battletech for the 'swan song'.
but, thankfully for those who would LIKE to see the Republic remain a faction, said destruction wasn't total...but what's the move?
Here's what I'd love to see, and know I won't. Stone blew it on the defense of Terra, okay. That's established, it's not going to become UN-established.
but...
bear with me here, because this is screwed up and it isn't going to happen, but it would be amazing if it did...
They wage a competent insurgency and make life hell for the occupiers.
by 'competent', I mean the Republic's outlying, surviving units, the guys they deployed and so on, instead of rushing off to sell their virtue to whomever happens to be handy, they come together in the systems the Clan hasn't taken yet, and organize a counter-offensive waged using asymmetrical attacks on things Alaric needs-like his jumpships. They bottle him up in the Terran system and cut off his resupply and kill his men every time they come out in less than Galaxy strength to the systems outside Terra, and for surface garrisons ON terra, it becomes habit that no Wolf goes out alone-because going out alone gets you murdered.
THAT is what I would love. I could support a Republic of the Sphere whose people have jsut...had enough of this shit, are tired of being someone else's occupied territory, sick of being the football, and ready, and willing, to make Cappies say 'That's ****** up man, even we don't do that!!"
we're not gonna see it, of course. But that's what I think would be awesome enough.
Maybe.
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Frankly, without plotty shenanigans and handwaving, I just don't see a path for the Clans to unify behind the Wolves and start a conquering spree. Alaric lacks the military strength to impose his will on the other Clans, while the rest of the Clans have little reason to throw their efforts into reconquering the old Hegemony for the IlKhan.
I can totally understand that it looks that way on paper, but I'm willing to give TPTB a chance to show us what they've got in store and let this play out... and honestly, as long as what comes next makes logical sense and doesn't feel like an asspull, that's good enough for me.
[quoteAt the very least, Alaric has to stop acting like Nicky Kerensky and start acting like Ian Cameron. His attitude won't win him any favors or loyalty at this rate. Though perhaps Alaric getting his teeth knocked in by the Liaos will teach him a bit of humbleness.[/quote]
TOTALLY agree. Alaric is the product of Victor and Katherine's genes. I want to see a truly strategic, political, flexible, calculating mind at work here showing whatever face he needs to show to whoever he's dealing with to get what he wants, and not just be some blowhard Clanner caricature.
For me at least, the only thing that would really make the Clans interesting again would be a 2nd invasion by the Home clans.
This has always been my wish, even without my beloved Blood Spirits and with the hated Star Adders leading the way. I honestly would love to see what the Adders could do now that they've finally got the reins of power and have had 70ish years to shepherd the other Home Clans while they rebuild and prepare.
I'm actually salty that TPTB never followed through on the Home Clans' invasion of the Hansa, and would love to see them come to blows with the Scorpion Empire. They'd kinda have to in order to prosecute an invasion of the Inner Sphere, otherwise the Scorpions would likely warn the Clans via the Sharks (since they now have a line of mobile HPGs stretching from the Empire to their new enclave in the Chaine Cluster.
Which goes into my point about "plotty shenanigans and handwaves". Plus, that 's not entirely accurate. The Clans themselves are still very split, as shown by the rogue Nova Cats in EA and the fault-lines within the Ghost Bears in DD. The actual Clan leaderships aren't exactly rushing to aid Alaric or are taking commands form the Wolves. The Horses have completely rejected Alaric and the Wolves' authority, the Bears appear to want to negotiate the best position possible before fully signing on, and the Ravens seem to be moving on their own (its really hard to tell what they're up to at this point).
Finally, I'd point out that no one is really in a position to launch a coordinated reconquest of the old Hegemony, let alone force a Third Star League: the Bears have decided to start a "short, victorious war" with the Dragons (and we all know how those kinds of wars usually turn out), the Horses have rejected Alaric, and the Ravens are to far away to offer much help.
Oh, no, of course you're right. The Horses alone making such a public break in front of the other Clans was a Big Deal as it was, and now they have an aggressive new Khan calling the shots, though their new novel seems to indicate that they're not going to be hostile to Alaric now but still won't acknowledge him. The Ravens are moving in support of Alaric (the Star League, to be specific) per the story in Shrapnel, the Bears literally jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire by invading a DracCom that's bounced back from their own war with the FedSuns... that can't end well for them.
I think the best chance this new Star League would've had is if TPTB had embraced further balkanization of the Inner Sphere, which would've at least given the Clans a chance to come together and take advantage of that. For example, I think they should've split the Combine up between Yori/Toranaga and Emi/Katana/Nova Cats instead of just letting one side crush the other. I think the FedSuns should've split up amongst its Marches after the death of Harrison Davion, maybe have Caleb do something to earn his crazy name like trying to assert leadership over the Haseks and Sandovals, letting the Haseks fight the CapCon and the Sandovals taking advantage of the Combine civil war. Hell, maybe we see some of the Lyrans actually decide to recognize Alaric as Katherine's heir (but they have to call him ArKhan Alaric).
To be more on-topic with the thread, as crazy as this would be to even think about, I think it would've been awesome if the writers had used the Fidelis to bridge Alaric and Devlin Stone and had them create this new Star League together. I mean, we've seen several Clan/Spheroid merger states now, and the Republic was created that way, so why the hell not? If the Republic's doomed anyway, why not let its legacy live on with the victor? Imagine Tara Campbell leading a legitimate Royal Black Watch for this new Star League.
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I'm fine with Alaric not having the political skills of Victor or Katherine (and honestly neither of them were ever that impressive when it came to stuff that was shown while they were doing it instead of the audience just being told "they did this thing and it was very impressive"). The Clans' belief in genetic superiority has always been magical thinking, and let's face it, Katherine was actually quite incompetent when it came to actually ruling.
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I'm fine with Alaric not having the political skills of Victor or Katherine (and honestly neither of them were ever that impressive when it came to stuff that was shown while they were doing it instead of the audience just being told "they did this thing and it was very impressive"). The Clans' belief in genetic superiority has always been magical thinking, and let's face it, Katherine was actually quite incompetent when it came to actually ruling.
You make some good points. Hell, Devlin Stone made it patently clear that conquering and ruling are two different things in his deathbed dress-down of Alaric, and I personally think he was an absolute MORON to reject the RasDom because the results were too close for his liking. I'd even call it self-destructive. And I absolutely think it makes the unlikelihood of this new Star League growing or even surviving that much more unlikely without some sort of asspull.
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I'm fine with Alaric not having the political skills of Victor or Katherine (and honestly neither of them were ever that impressive when it came to stuff that was shown while they were doing it instead of the audience just being told "they did this thing and it was very impressive"). The Clans' belief in genetic superiority has always been magical thinking, and let's face it, Katherine was actually quite incompetent when it came to actually ruling.
Both of them were. Incompetent at ruling, that is. Victor thought he could rule from the seat of a battlemech on the front lines, Katherine thought she...was smart at anything EXCEPT chasing power.
that is, she didn't have the intelligence to actually USE it, she could only pursue it.
Victor lacked the ability to use it, AND to pursue it.
But that's what, 3062-3084?
The flaw here, is not Victor or Katherine, it's Alaric and the Republic.
or rather, the amount of force used to make Alaric the Conqueror of the Republic.
not military force, but force as applied to plots and circumstances from outside.
God power, aka the power of the Editorial Direction, which turned what ought to have been an epic struggle between equals, into a wallowing one-sided mess to glorify one, inbred, scion of Steiner and Davion.
but maybe Epic can be SAVED...the problem being that such salvation will have to come from ceasing to flinch and force, and pursuing the rule of natural consequences.
When your overlord is outnumbered a thousand to one, a conquered people don't stay conquered for long.
When the Germans bombed london into rubble, the British were not cowed. It took a god (Literally a diety) to make Japan surrender-and that's after two atomic bombings. Schoolchildren were making spears to fight tanks. The SEATO allies bombed so much of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos that people are still bumping into live ordnance over fifty years after it was dropped-notably the USA does not influence Vietnam.
Atrocity has one of two outcomes-the one the war criminal hopes for, where the will of the people to resist is broken, and the one that has somewhat more history behind it, in which their will to resist deepens and stiffens and becomes more resilient. The Warsaw Uprising is an example of the second.
I fear we're not going to get that. Instead they're going to redistribute assets to the factions they didn't kill and leave the Republic dead, because it's not convenient.
That is, after all, largely how they handled the entirety of the Clan Invasion.
but here's a thought for y'all...
Wars are not won on the field of combat. Battles are, but those are only ever part of the story. To win a war you need to break the enemy's resolve, to force him to accept defeat. Otherwise the war will never end. Too many conflicts persist because battles are won but the hearts and minds of the people are not. Winning involves every level of society, from the generals and politicians to the shop girls and street cleaners. The infantryman with his rifle may be the blunt weapon used to win this fight, but he is neither the instigator nor the concluder. ”
— Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht, 3058
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why are we assuming that the answer is eaither "swift and decisive wolf victory" or "equally swift defeat"?
neither of those two seems very intreasting
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This has always been my wish, even without my beloved Blood Spirits and with the hated Star Adders leading the way. I honestly would love to see what the Adders could do now that they've finally got the reins of power and have had 70ish years to shepherd the other Home Clans while they rebuild and prepare.
I'm actually salty that TPTB never followed through on the Home Clans' invasion of the Hansa, and would love to see them come to blows with the Scorpion Empire. They'd kinda have to in order to prosecute an invasion of the Inner Sphere, otherwise the Scorpions would likely warn the Clans via the Sharks (since they now have a line of mobile HPGs stretching from the Empire to their new enclave in the Chaine Cluster.
I would love nothing more than to finally have SUCCESSFUL Clan invasion where Home Clans conquer the Inner Sphere, demolish all Successor States, rain righteous fire on dezgra Periphery nations who bit the hand that fed them all those centuries and to finally restore the Star League in all it's glory
And I would be the first one to sacrifice Scorpion Empire (AKA my favorite faction) in order to see it happen
But we all know that's NOT how things would go down (it would also make all those "get focht" memes on 4chan and Tukkayid videos on YouTube obsolete, oh humanity!!!)
What would happen is that Clans would invade, be little successfull at first but plucky Spheroids would fight valiantly against invaders while rest of the Inner Sphere would unite and challenge the invading Clans to a proxy battle for some obscure planet (let's call it Trapezoid) for the right to delay invasion for 17 years which they would win and use that time to restore the Star League in name in order to spite the Clans and organize operations Rottweiler and Viper to destroy Star Adders and invade Homeworlds and challenge other Clans on Strana Mechty to force them to stop invasion in a Great Denial which they would win after which Wars of Absorption would wreck the Kerensky Cluster
Predictable, tropy, boring and already done once before
Anything other than that would send fandom in complete meltdown
Also, invading Inner Sphere via Scorpion Empire is opposite of surprise, it's advertising it in advance
The moment Scorpions get a whif of home Clans they will be picking up the phone and calling Sea Foxes while they start blasting Hommies away in a war which they spent 70 years getting ready for
Had Adders tried with Hansa 70 years ago Diamond Sharks would have spotted them immediately and blown a whistle over HPG to entire Inner Sphere
Only way to invade without warning is the old way straight through RasDom, shortest route and HPGs in Inner Sphere are down now (obviously it would also fail miserably which is why it won't be and shouldn't be happening)
And lastly technological parity between Home Clans and Inner Sphere has been achieved so they wouldn't even have that
Star Adders are amazing faction but if they get saddled with being dollar store Smoke Jaguars they will stop being amazing so it's better to focus on current storyline and let home clans evolve into unique factions with their own interests, new backstories and motivations before reintroducing them into the setting properly
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why are we assuming that the answer is eaither "swift and decisive wolf victory" or "equally swift defeat"?
neither of those two seems very intreasting
As much as I’d love to see CCAF cripple the Terran wolves beyond recovery or to see what fun a war of the ilKhan’s could be, Daoshen doesn’t have what it takes to take Terra. Conversely, Alaric doesn’t have the materials to soundly smash the CCAF and make an invasion of Terra a lost dream for Daoshen. Not whil defending from every potential threat.
I’d like to see Wolves take enough casualties that they are forced to cooperate. So the wolves actually acknowledge they need the other clans. Be forced to make concessions in order to turn the current faux league (which is basically just Wolf) into an actual league. Go from Alaric’s seeming desire of wolves treated as untouchable gods to wolves as first among equals. Ones whose supremacy isn’t guaranteed, but has to keep being earned.
For on topic and where the Republic fits? Have them rally somewhere. There’s like… 12+ triarii/Principes/Hastati/fides units unaccounted for. Add in that the era suffers from lack of pilots, not hardware. Have a prison break of a hell of a lot of the surrendered RAF off Terra. In a flash, you have a military back that is strong enough to cause the clan league a hell of a lot of problems. Nowhere near defeating the league, but enough concentrated force in one small area to make it too costly to fight them.
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why are we assuming that the answer is eaither "swift and decisive wolf victory" or "equally swift defeat"?
neither of those two seems very intreasting
I don't know about you, but my "Wish" (because it ain't gonna happen) is for a long, grinding, vicious insurgency that creates lots of opportunity for heroism (and horror) on all sides and doesnt telegraph final victory in the opening bout.
because IMNSHO that opening bout sucked ass.
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I can totally understand that it looks that way on paper, but I'm willing to give TPTB a chance to show us what they've got in store and let this play out... and honestly, as long as what comes next makes logical sense and doesn't feel like an asspull, that's good enough for me.
I'm willing to give them a chance, but I am a bit nervous after the major disappointment that was Dominions Divided. Now, if IlKhan's Eyes Only swings back toward Tamar Rising or EA, I'll be a happy camper.
This has always been my wish, even without my beloved Blood Spirits and with the hated Star Adders leading the way. I honestly would love to see what the Adders could do now that they've finally got the reins of power and have had 70ish years to shepherd the other Home Clans while they rebuild and prepare.
I'm actually salty that TPTB never followed through on the Home Clans' invasion of the Hansa, and would love to see them come to blows with the Scorpion Empire. They'd kinda have to in order to prosecute an invasion of the Inner Sphere, otherwise the Scorpions would likely warn the Clans via the Sharks (since they now have a line of mobile HPGs stretching from the Empire to their new enclave in the Chaine Cluster.
TOTALLY AGREE!!! Even if its not setting up a second invasion, I'd love to read about what the Home Clans have gotten up to these past 70 years. Like a new campaign between the Scorpions and the Home clans, either with the Empire invading the Homeworlds or the Clans trying to wipe out the "tainted" scorps. Though I'd hate to see the Scorpions vanish, sense they're basically my favorite Clan at this point. But I'd obviously love to see Invasion 2.0. It would shake up the Inner Sphere in a way not seen sense the start of the blackout, if not all the way back to the first invasion.
Not to mention, a 2nd invasion would be about the only thing that truly unites the disparate IS clans. After all, to the Home clans, they are all "tainted" and should be wiped out. So a 2nd invasion is a true existential threat to the IS clans. Hell, come to think of it, a true second invasion might be enough to forge a new Star League that includes at least a few of the Great Houses as well. Plus, the "ilClan" era would be the best time to invade; the "tainted" clans have now polluted Holy Terra itself, so all must be cleansed.
Oh, no, of course you're right. The Horses alone making such a public break in front of the other Clans was a Big Deal as it was, and now they have an aggressive new Khan calling the shots, though their new novel seems to indicate that they're not going to be hostile to Alaric now but still won't acknowledge him. The Ravens are moving in support of Alaric (the Star League, to be specific) per the story in Shrapnel, the Bears literally jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire by invading a DracCom that's bounced back from their own war with the FedSuns... that can't end well for them.
Yeah the Horses are likely gonna be busy grabbing as much of the Falcon OZ as possible for a good little bit. But, if they can grab enough rimward territory to put then near Terra, I get the feeling they'll make an attempt. Of course, that would put them under threat from the Bears, if/when their own war with the Combine ends. Although, who knows how ravaged their Touman will be by the end of that war. Personally, I wonder if the Combine could thread the needle and appear as the lesser evil to a large amount of the Dominion's population in the face of the ilClan. If that happens, both the Bears and the Prince are in a very bad position.
As to the Ravens, I'm still not totally sure what they're doing. We know that they're started patching their units with the old Cameron star, but whether their operating under orders from Alaric or moving on their own is unknown. I mean, its pretty simple to toss on a Cameron Star as a smokescreen to any questionable actions. With that, the Ravens can claim that any of their actions against FedSuns or the Dragons are "in the name of the ilClan", not simply opportunistic grab for themselves.
I think the best chance this new Star League would've had is if TPTB had embraced further balkanization of the Inner Sphere, which would've at least given the Clans a chance to come together and take advantage of that. For example, I think they should've split the Combine up between Yori/Toranaga and Emi/Katana/Nova Cats instead of just letting one side crush the other. I think the FedSuns should've split up amongst its Marches after the death of Harrison Davion, maybe have Caleb do something to earn his crazy name like trying to assert leadership over the Haseks and Sandovals, letting the Haseks fight the CapCon and the Sandovals taking advantage of the Combine civil war. Hell, maybe we see some of the Lyrans actually decide to recognize Alaric as Katherine's heir (but they have to call him ArKhan Alaric).
Again, totally agree. For me, the lack of balkanization in the Dark Age was a real loss of opportunity. I mean, the fall of the HPG network basically pushed the majority of the IS states to their breaking point, yet all remained intact? I'm not saying they all had to fall, but at the very least having some of the more independence minded provinces breakaway would have been very believable!
Like you said, de-facto split of the Combine would definitely work (I mean, it was done to the FWL in Empires Aflame), and at the very least the Azami Brotherhood could have been carved off. And the FedSuns are tailor made to balkanize (sense the Marches are basically ran as autonomous federal states under their own dynasties)! I'd go so far as to say the poor governance of Melissa and Trillian should lead to a de-facto collapse of the Lyran commonwealth in the model of the Holy Roman Empire; dozens of small states becoming de-facto independent while still nominally sharing a few institutions with the Steiners.
To be more on-topic with the thread, as crazy as this would be to even think about, I think it would've been awesome if the writers had used the Fidelis to bridge Alaric and Devlin Stone and had them create this new Star League together. I mean, we've seen several Clan/Spheroid merger states now, and the Republic was created that way, so why the hell not? If the Republic's doomed anyway, why not let its legacy live on with the victor? Imagine Tara Campbell leading a legitimate Royal Black Watch for this new Star League.
From what I remember, there was a plan pretty similar in consideration years back. Ben H. Rome mentioned the original plans for starting the ilClan era on his blog back in 2018, and a lot of it involved a merge between the Republic and the Wolves, with Stone ending up as the "Cameron" to Alaric's "Kerensky". The entries are a pretty interesting read, if you haven't seen them before.
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Quick question for you good Republicans.
IlClan mentions the Melbourne Militia in Australia, It's a battalion of vehicles & infantry, no 'Mechs. I'm planning on using up a bunch of my remaining MW:DA vehicles that size well to BT to reproduce this, living in Melbourne, Australia, as I do.
Current plans is three companies, each with platoons of battle armour, recon vehicles, and something heavier, and possibly an HQ unit. Oh, and a platoon of Urbies (they barely count as 'Mechs) in the blue, yellow & red MFP scheme from the original "Mad Max".
The question is, would these guys (other than the Urbies) be in Republic Standing Guard colours, or something else?
Any advice welcomed! Thanks in advance.
RAF colors would make sense since its militia, and that would save you a lot of time since they'ed already be done up in them.
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So while it's cool to see so many folks in this thread posting, it does seem to me the last two pages have had very little, if anything to do with the Republic. If you all could try to keep your posts partially-Republic based rather than IlKhan speculation based, that'd be cool. If you all want I can make a thread that's a general speculation thread too. :)
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TAG'd
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OK, a thought more related to RotS; would the Republic have stood more of a chance of Stone had realized his plan to break the power of the nobility and move toward a more "democratic" system was doomed to failure, and instead decided to found a dynasty? I can't help but think a more "traditional" RotS would have been able to last a bit longer with institutional loyalty toward a Stone dynasty, rather then the much more vague Republican "ideals" of canon.
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OK, a thought more related to RotS; would the Republic have stood more of a chance of Stone had realized his plan to break the power of the nobility and move toward a more "democratic" system was doomed to failure, and instead decided to found a dynasty? I can't help but think a more "traditional" RotS would have been able to last a bit longer with institutional loyalty toward a Stone dynasty, rather then the much more vague Republican "ideals" of canon.
Stellar Geography says no. Have you ever played Risk(tm)? Okay, now the sizes are different, but have you ever been able to hold on to Asia?
Yeah, that's where the Republic of The Sphere is-it's bordered on all sides by people who'd really rather have those planets rather than leaving them alone-and there's no 'safe' border, not really.
Stone's objective wasn't doomed, his methodology was. The relocations of population (ala Marshall Tito in Yugoslavia post WWII), and his methods to 'break' a nobility were both failures-but not because he was trying to break the nobility, so much as he failed to break the influence and power of the Nobility (see: the entire storyline relating to Jacob Bannson, whose entire motivation was to become part of the Nobility because just being Elon Musk wasn't good enough for him!)
it wasn't how Stone designed it, iow, it was how he implemented his ideas that doomed the Republic...and it wasn't a total failure, or he wouldn't have even been able to use a cult of personality to stiffen them and keep things going.
The flaw was in execution, not design. One might say that what Stone failed to grasp, was that the means used to achieve them, decides what Ends you're going to end up dealing with.
A Dynasty wouldn't have helped. A bit more attention to building for successors might-for example contingency planning to maintain law and order in the event of a loss of primary communications, a bit more awareness that simply sitting on feuds and grievances isn't going to make them go away, and a clearer path of elevation that might keep ambitious people who are also dangerously intelligent 'on side' instead of spurned and offended could have maybe prevented half the civil wars that broke out as soon as the HPG's stopped working.
I use Bannson as the example, because he's the one example of a mess that could've been prevented by NOT giving so much goodies to the Nobility, or, by making the path into that class something nonexclusive (which would've actually BROKEN the Nobility-if any nuevo-riche can buy a lordship, lordships stop being seen by commoners as actually important! Do you know what a Noble without followers is? A noisy beggar.)
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RAF colors would make sense since its militia, and that would save you a lot of time since they'ed already be done up in them.
Thanks for that, thought I'd been drowned in the other conversation! :D
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The Republic was in a tight spot because it really could not make Bannson a Knight. Successful non-military people could become Knights, but the Republic did so more in the public service sense. The Confederation was similarly not stupid but played him for what he was worth. What Daoshen pulled on Bannson, intended or unintended, was truly cruel.
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Stone's objective wasn't doomed, his methodology was. The relocations of population (ala Marshall Tito in Yugoslavia post WWII), and his methods to 'break' a nobility were both failures-but not because he was trying to break the nobility, so much as he failed to break the influence and power of the Nobility (see: the entire storyline relating to Jacob Bannson, whose entire motivation was to become part of the Nobility because just being Elon Musk wasn't good enough for him!)
it wasn't how Stone designed it, iow, it was how he implemented his ideas that doomed the Republic...and it wasn't a total failure, or he wouldn't have even been able to use a cult of personality to stiffen them and keep things going.
The flaw was in execution, not design. One might say that what Stone failed to grasp, was that the means used to achieve them, decides what Ends you're going to end up dealing with.
Not to mention the decade long conspiracy by the nobles to influence the high echolons of the Republic. It was within the system but it was a planned take over. And they did it by simply "buying" people or rather by sponsoring them which in turn bound them to the nobles. Just imagine if a couple of Paladins owe allegance to the senators. Now they have real power as the senate was more of a advisory body then a ruling body. Something that now has radically changed for the current ilclan period. Most nobles are now powerless so we might see a complete shift of systems.
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So while it's cool to see so many folks in this thread posting, it does seem to me the last two pages have had very little, if anything to do with the Republic. If you all could try to keep your posts partially-Republic based rather than IlKhan speculation based, that'd be cool. If you all want I can make a thread that's a general speculation thread too. :)
I sympathize with this feeling, but it's not going to happen until we know what Alaric's conquest of Terra means for the setting. The the Tamar, Empire Dominions threads all had pages and pages of speculation devoted towards how what happened on Terra would impact those slices of the pie.
- What's going to happen to Jonah Levin? If he survives, I feel like he'll be brought into the ilClan.
- Various merc units or insurgent groups related to the Republic. - ExRAF Mercs absolutely. Armed RAF rebellion, probably nothing to serious.
- What was Stone's real plan after coming back? - I always felt Stone (the smart one) went away in order to try and break the cult of personality and let the Republic stand on its own too feet. He might have had a fantasy about being a savior but nothing more than an idle day dream. Knowing himself, he gambled on the popsicle to pull himself out of play.
- Why did the people of Terra, who have known the Clans are gunning for them for over a 100 years, not enact a better insurgency against Clans Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon in HOTW ala the Japanese against Vau Galaxy? - Leadership matters.
In one of the podcasts of kickstarted streams Ray mentioned that the population of Terra are going to have some sort of say in how everything plays out and we still have those 3150 blurbs that talks about an Exarch. My money is on a rapid Rasalhague Dominionization of the Republic of the Sphere. Part of the reason I don't think we are going to see a lot of ex-RAF shenanigans is that Chance and Tara (not Alaric) will see the need of continuing to mobilize the population in order to beat back the Cappies and maybe do something about the Horses.
Though after the last Elements of Treason book, I am not feeling like the Horses are going to be all that unified against Alaric.
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So while it's cool to see so many folks in this thread posting, it does seem to me the last two pages have had very little, if anything to do with the Republic. If you all could try to keep your posts partially-Republic based rather than IlKhan speculation based, that'd be cool. If you all want I can make a thread that's a general speculation thread too. :)
Unfortunately, it’s functionally impossible in this forum to start a RotS thread and keep it on topic. No matter what, it’ll end with long winded diatribes about how terrible Stone was (which is an opinion one can have), how the RotS was written to die (they literally had to retcon its success out of the lore so it could die), or some other tangent.
But back on topic:
- I think Levin will lead a resistance on or off Terra. He was a soldier, not a politician, and believed hard in the RotS. Cooperation with the wolves, who promise basically endless war, stands as the antithesis of his worldview.
- I’m going to be sorely disappointed if the rest of the RAF just turns to Vapor. I’d love - for in and out of universe reasons - to see a RotS in exile.
- 1) In universe: There’s enough still unaccounted RAF units out there to secure a few worlds and offer a thorn in Alaric’s side.
- 2) In universe: They are a prison break off Terra away from having enough people to form an almost great house sized military. Though getting the asssets is… a supreme challenge. Still, lots of manufacturing near Terra.
- 3) In universe: RotS doesn’t have overlap with clan culture to just happily roll into the biggest warmonger since Amaris as bondspeople and assimilate. There really, really should be a rub.
- 4) Out of universe: The death of the Republic was handled absolutely terribly. Embarrassingly terribly. BLP wrote a hit piece instead of a story. One so bad we can’t actually reconcile Wolves holding Terra with anywhere near the strength the do given pre-existing logic of the setting. I’d like to see CGL make some minor overtures - even if tiny - to remedy that. At this point I don’t really give a crap if they retcon parts of HotW to do it.
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Even from the most twisted stance a defensive realist (Already a pretzel of a stance) could try to get in, all local states will want to annihilate Clan Wolf. Not contain, annihilate, containment requires certain thresholds to be met before consideration before being taken as a serious alternative. There is no way around this.
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(they literally had to retcon its success out of the lore so it could die)
What was this?
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What was this?
He's talking about the epilogue of 'Surrender Your Dreams', which has indeed been retconned out of existence.
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Even from the most twisted stance a defensive realist (Already a pretzel of a stance) could try to get in, all local states will want to annihilate Clan Wolf. Not contain, annihilate, containment requires certain thresholds to be met before consideration before being taken as a serious alternative. There is no way around this.
Counter point being it's not just Clan Wolf, but the quasi-religious ilClan. The ilKhan and Terra could wind up being like the Pope and Rome, with any near by Clan ready to come swooping in in order to keep Terra in Clan hands. When Clan Sea Fox stands the HPGs and the MRBC back up they, assuming they are still pro-ilClan that would give them a tremendous amount of soft power to help dissuade rivals.
The same general sort of setup that kept the Republic alive... until it didn't.
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He's talking about the epilogue of 'Surrender Your Dreams', which has indeed been retconned out of existence.
By success do we mean simply existing? It's been a while since I looked at it, but I (vaguely) remember the Retconning be how the Smoke Jags ended their deal with Stone and stepped back into the light. I also remember Republicans and necessarily the Republic.
Anyway it's neither hear nor there as its no longer canon.
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BLP wrote a hit piece instead of a story.
And CGL's editorial approved it. BLP was a contracted author, not the president of Topps whom they had to accommodate at all costs. The Republic got thrown in the trash because the people running CGL wanted it that way.
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By success do we mean simply existing? It's been a while since I looked at it, but I (vaguely) remember the Retconning be how the Smoke Jags ended their deal with Stone and stepped back into the light. I also remember Republicans and necessarily the Republic.
Anyway it's neither hear nor there as its no longer canon.
[/quote
Basically, the ending of SYD ended with the fortress being lowered, the remnants left outside being reunited, and a general optimism for the future of the RotS. Fidelis were released from their oath because they served and defended the RotS during its darkest hours.
You’re right though that the specifics aren’t really important. Its only real relevance is that it shows the faction wasn’t born to die. At least not any more than every great house and faction was going to be unrecognizable after the original 3250 planned timeskip .
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Another of the Republics biggest flaws was the dismantling of their military supplies by Stone in the first place. He could have raised dozens more regiments to guard the RotS but instead he had three Combined Arms Regiments per Prefecture and the Stones Brigade. And those got ground down pretty quickly by being besieged on all sides and civil trouble. When the Wall went up he tried to build more units but they had ten years and failed miserably. With Fortress Terra he raised so many scratch Militias and other units they put a dent in their attackers but it wasn’t enough… not even close. They could have built a better fleet, more Regiments, or even more fixed defenses just to waste enemy time.
Now how much of the RAF is left is anyone’s guess. Plenty of Knights and Ghost Knights and potentially Paladins to raise hell if they’re united. Levin could have an escape plan like the Kell Hounds given to him by Stone. I doubt they’ll be able to take on the Wolf Fleet but the Fleet can’t be everywhere.
Again I’ll bring up the lack of resistance: Alaric made it clear what would happen if people went to guerrilla action. Not to say it won’t happen especially as people begin becoming integrated into the Clan. But for the normal civilians it’s better than the Falcons for sure. Who knows because now Stone is dead… will Janella Lakewood get angry at the fact? Will the population be angry at the Wolves if they find out he was murdered? Who knows.
The other hanging thread is of course the enemy still at the gates: the CCAF has more than enough to challenge the Wolves (and their remaining Allies). The Sea Foxes and Ravens might help but distance and time to assemble anything of course will be an issue. The Wolves angered the Horses who will also be seeking vengeance of some variety, and who knows what the Bears are going to do. Not to mention the FWL and the Draconis Combine (the other states are far too distracted/occupied IMO) if they decide to join in.
Holding Terra is like trying to hold Asia in the board game risk (I’d argue more Europe because it’s an acceptable goal in the game rather than Asia which everyone writes off but I believe your comparison was in the vein of size and prestige as well as the rewards), except this time different people are playing against someone whose already played and ‘won’.
One final (non-RAF) point: Alaric has a bigger problem in the Wolf Empire (remnants). Will there be a Wolf Empire soon? Will the Wolf Empire just go ‘hell no you abandoned us?’ Might they be a target for the RAF remnants themselves? Who knows
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The SYD epilogue was silly anyway. Telegraphing the survival of a faction so many years down the line kinda spoiled things for those of us who were enjoying the ride of seeing the metaplot unfolding in real-time. I'm personally glad it was retconned out of existence, because it had no business existing to begin with.
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In terms of Wolf situation almost everyone seems to be putting cart before the horse
What is currently first order of business for Wolves?
It's not ruling Terra, it's not reforming political system or implementing Clan rules
It's dealing with upcoming attack by Capelans, everything else is for much later
Just like Sudeten Falcons had to handle Hell's Horses first before sorting out their daily politics so do Wolves have to handle Capelans before doing anything else on Terra
And good thing about Terra is that it can easily be left on autopilot while Wolves deal with bigger issues
Only difference average local person would notice would be some military convoy speeding down the interstate
And they know that people running those convoys are the only thing standing between them and Capelans downgrading them all to servitors, the same Capelans who have been at the old republic's throat since it's inception
And they all watched Great Refusal on TV so they are aware that Wolves know their thing
People assume that time works against Wolves which is absolutely wrong, the longer Capelans wait the more troops and materiel will Wolves accumulate, Terrans might not be crazy about a Clan but at such large sample size even tiny recruitment percentage translates to huge number of troops
And even Malvina was able to get recruits from outside the Clan
Capelans have huge military on paper but that's still just Capelan military. Had it been FedSuns' or Combine military it would have been a nightmare scenario but it's not
Daoshen probably expects upcoming conflict to resemble CapCon performance in Great Refusal (AKA only time Cappies faced a Clan). Problem is that these are definitely not Fire Mandrills they are up against
What he will get in reality will probably resemble what FWL got when they tried going up against Star Adders in that same Great Refusal
Cappies are the only current topic for the Wolves, all that Terra related stuff is deep in the fridge until everything else is settled and neither Wolves nor Terrans are in a hurry to take it out
And any ex RAF who would try to get in the way of stopping CapCon from taking Terra would be ripped to pieces by angry mob
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It may not be as well known in the Clan section, but the CCAF is extremely competent and deadly. They also manufacture and make use of plenty of Clan Tech, including Gauss Rifles (I could be wrong on the Gauss Rifle in particular, but it sticks to my mind). The Free Worlds League Militia and the Armed Forces of the Federated Suns did not beat the CCAF over time because they were weaklings, in the Fourth for example the AFFS would drop 5:1 odds.
The Free Worlds League Militia losing their 1 battle in the Great Refusal was less a demonstration of the competence of various armed forces and more a plot need. No one took it seriously.
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By success do we mean simply existing? It's been a while since I looked at it, but I (vaguely) remember the Retconning be how the Smoke Jags ended their deal with Stone and stepped back into the light. I also remember Republicans and necessarily the Republic.
Anyway it's neither hear nor there as its no longer canon.
Basically, the ending of SYD ended with the fortress being lowered, the remnants left outside being reunited, and a general optimism for the future of the RotS. Fidelis were released from their oath because they served and defended the RotS during its darkest hours.
You’re right though that the specifics aren’t really important. Its only real relevance is that it shows the faction wasn’t born to die. At least not any more than every great house and faction was going to be unrecognizable after the original 3250 planned timeskip .
Did that happen? I need to track down an old copy of the book?
I got the vibes that Fortress Republic might not have been the good guys keeping to the spirit of the Republic and it had to be taken down like the Word of Blake. Like they used the word Revolution or Liberation to talk about the Fortress Wall actually coming down. I remember thinking the picture being painted was deliberately misleading, but that might have been me knowing the Ben Rome outcome. Maybe the original plan was to have the Fortress Republic go south and turn into one man rule (they did abolish the Senate, which always bodes well).
I do feel like the reason there was a wall was because there was going to be some other story that just he failure and collapse of the Republic, so do agree that it probably wasn't born just to die.... but I doubt it was ever supposed to really thrive.
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Daoshen probably expects upcoming conflict to resemble CapCon performance in Great Refusal (AKA only time Cappies faced a Clan). Problem is that these are definitely not Fire Mandrills they are up against
That's definitely not the only time the Capellans fought against a Clan. See: Hsien during Operation SCOUR, where the Capellans fought the Hell's Horses. Shrapnel #10 has a whole big story about it, too, and it's one of the best pieces Shrapnel's ever run.
And even without that, I still disagree that Daoshen would think "oh, this'll be like the Great Refusal". They've had a century to gather intel and read reports about the Clans and how they've evolved, and Daoshen's also not an idiot.
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It may not be as well known in the Clan section, but the CCAF is extremely competent and deadly. They also manufacture and make use of plenty of Clan Tech, including Gauss Rifles (I could be wrong on the Gauss Rifle in particular, but it sticks to my mind). The Free Worlds League Militia and the Armed Forces of the Federated Suns did not beat the CCAF over time because they were weaklings, in the Fourth for example the AFFS would drop 5:1 odds.
The Free Worlds League Militia losing their 1 battle in the Great Refusal was less a demonstration of the competence of various armed forces and more a plot need. No one took it seriously.
The FWLM was also matched up against the Star Adders, who (as we can see from everything that's been written about them since) were at the beginning of a rocket push. It was an endorsement of the Adders as a new big dealtm first and foremost.
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The old weakness of the CCAF was that if you knocked out the right commander the formation could fall apart or stagnate. The CCAF could also lack initiative at lower levels, whilst both the FWLM and AFFS excelled with individual initiative. Lastly, they had less in terms of aerospace (In particular) or even total assets than the rest of the Inner Sphere. There have been no examples of this in the 32nd century that I know of, and this is due to the work of the last 2 Chancellors. Other changes have occurred with other Inner Sphere militaries that seem to have made those forces tougher. This is not the Inner Sphere of the Clan invasion.
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The FWLM was also matched up against the Star Adders, who (as we can see from everything that's been written about them since) were at the beginning of a rocket push.
Yeah, but they used a tactic that was common in Inner Sphere warfare. An elite unit not being on guard for such a thing at all times was more than a push.
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In terms of Wolf situation almost everyone seems to be putting cart before the horse
What is currently first order of business for Wolves?
It's not ruling Terra, it's not reforming political system or implementing Clan rules
It's dealing with upcoming attack by Capelans, everything else is for much later
Just like Sudeten Falcons had to handle Hell's Horses first before sorting out their daily politics so do Wolves have to handle Capelans before doing anything else on Terra
And good thing about Terra is that it can easily be left on autopilot while Wolves deal with bigger issues
You’re making a bunch of assumptions that Terra can be on autopilot. The public likely thinks Alaric murdered Stone per ilClan. Stone, who everyone says built a faction out of a cult of personality. Who had recently just turned the Republic around and refocused it. That’s gonna cause problems.
Alaric invited the falcons. That will get out and can easily turn the public against him. “Remember Geneva” will be said more than once.
Alaric should have problems “at home” immediately.
People assume that time works against Wolves which is absolutely wrong, the longer Capelans wait the more troops and materiel will Wolves accumulate, Terrans might not be crazy about a Clan but at such large sample size even tiny recruitment percentage translates to huge number of troops
There are no more wolves. Stone ran out of new recruits. Then the Falcons slaughtered thousands. Wolves already took anyone that would join to fight the ilClan trial. And we’ve seen in shrapnel that if the RAF troop wouldn’t fight for a Alaric against Malvina, the wolves don’t want them. There’s no good will on either side.
Capelans have huge military on paper but that's still just Capelan military. Had it been FedSuns' or Combine military it would have been a nightmare scenario but it's not
Daoshen probably expects upcoming conflict to resemble CapCon performance in Great Refusal (AKA only time Cappies faced a Clan). Problem is that these are definitely not Fire Mandrills they are up against
What he will get in reality will probably resemble what FWL got when they tried going up against Star Adders in that same Great Refusal
Cappies are the only current topic for the Wolves, all that Terra related stuff is deep in the fridge until everything else is settled and neither Wolves nor Terrans are in a hurry to take it out
And any ex RAF who would try to get in the way of stopping CapCon from taking Terra would be ripped to pieces by angry mob
Wolves have DC to worry about as well. Not a huge concentration, but enough that Alaric can’t send overwhelming numbers out to handle CCAF.
All it takes is a bunch of clan reforms as Alaric tries to reshape Terra into the “ideal” clan society for Capellans to look like a better option.
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Yeah, but they used a tactic that was common in Inner Sphere warfare. An elite unit not being on guard for such a thing at all times was more than a push.
"Rocket push" is a term used in pro wrestling parlance for when you anoint someone as the best thing going by booking them with the strategy of "always win, never lose, also the entire show is now about you."
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Wolves have DC to worry about as well. Not a huge concentration, but enough that Alaric can’t send overwhelming numbers out to handle CCAF.
Does Alaric even have overwhelming numbers at present?
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"Rocket push" is a term used in pro wrestling parlance for when you anoint someone as the best thing going by booking them with the strategy of "always win, never lose, also the entire show is now about you."
That is an interesting reading. I guess I tend to think in terms of the context of the novel rather than a stretched out beginning of a possible arc of a narrative in this context. Good catch.
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It may not be as well known in the Clan section, but the CCAF is extremely competent and deadly. They also manufacture and make use of plenty of Clan Tech, including Gauss Rifles (I could be wrong on the Gauss Rifle in particular, but it sticks to my mind). The Free Worlds League Militia and the Armed Forces of the Federated Suns did not beat the CCAF over time because they were weaklings, in the Fourth for example the AFFS would drop 5:1 odds.
The Free Worlds League Militia losing their 1 battle in the Great Refusal was less a demonstration of the competence of various armed forces and more a plot need. No one took it seriously.
actually the cappies DON'T seem to produce ANY clantech
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OK, a thought more related to RotS; would the Republic have stood more of a chance of Stone had realized his plan to break the power of the nobility and move toward a more "democratic" system was doomed to failure, and instead decided to found a dynasty? I can't help but think a more "traditional" RotS would have been able to last a bit longer with institutional loyalty toward a Stone dynasty, rather then the much more vague Republican "ideals" of canon.
If anything I don't think Stone went far enough with breaking the nobility. If Stone had done the following actions;
A) Give everyone citizenship immediately in this new nation.
B) Abolish all noble titles/control. Make it so that Governors and Lord Governors are elected positions that cannot only be held by Nobles. Nobles can keep their wealth and lands, but they get no more say in government any more than any other citizen.
C) Make the Senate be electable via each Prefecture, and not a special domain of the nobles. Let the Senate elect the Exarch. His or her Paladins can simply be the cabinet.
I think far more widespread loyalty to the Republic would have been the result. By giving the Nobles a big seat at the table, and not giving the average person much say unless they had the time to serve for years in the military or civilian sector, Stone made most of the loyalty to himself, not to his Republic.
One final (non-RAF) point: Alaric has a bigger problem in the Wolf Empire (remnants). Will there be a Wolf Empire soon? Will the Wolf Empire just go ‘hell no you abandoned us?’ Might they be a target for the RAF remnants themselves? Who knows
That settles it, Levin needs to take all the remaining RAF units, hire all the RAF merc units out there, head to Gienah, conquer it, and build the Republic Empire. Trade places with the Wolves.
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actually the cappies DON'T seem to produce ANY clantech
If I am wrong, I am wrong, but I am fairly certain that every Successor State is producing some. Some are trading with the Foxes to get better stuff.
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From descriptions in the Recognition Guides and TROs 3145 and 3150, it sounds like the CC doesn't natively build any Clantech and instead is reliant on trade with the Sea Foxes for their supply.
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They didn't until they took Tikonov. Earthworks has a Clan LRM factory there. Regardless, they are still SIGNIFICANTLY behind everyone else. Even independent Regulus can build cLRMs.
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I was thinking of the Yu Huang, which apparently now uses a Clan main gun.
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It does, but the weapon is purchased from the Foxes.
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And CGL's editorial approved it. BLP was a contracted author, not the president of Topps whom they had to accommodate at all costs. The Republic got thrown in the trash because the people running CGL wanted it that way.
Personally, I get the feeling that CGL desperately wanted to get to the IlClan era, and didn't particularly care how that happened. The plans for starting the Ilclan era had existed sense at least 2013, and BLP said on his blog that HotW was spawned in 2017. After such delays, it feels like CGL just wanted it finished.
The SYD epilogue was silly anyway. Telegraphing the survival of a faction so many years down the line kinda spoiled things for those of us who were enjoying the ride of seeing the metaplot unfolding in real-time. I'm personally glad it was retconned out of existence, because it had no business existing to begin with.
I mean, so was the 3250 stuff. I'd argue that seemed like attempts by the leading devs and writers to project their favored plans much farther into the battletech future then it should have been.
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Personally, I get the feeling that CGL desperately wanted to get to the IlClan era, and didn't particularly care how that happened. The plans for starting the Ilclan era had existed sense at least 2013, and BLP said on his blog that HotW was spawned in 2017. After such delays, it feels like CGL just wanted it finished.
That’s basically how it felt to me. They didn’t have the HotW they really wanted, but scrapping the story and starting over wasn’t something they had the time, or maybe finds, or maybe whatever to actually do. So they ended up with something that was less of what they wanted and more just what they had.
That settles it, Levin needs to take all the remaining RAF units, hire all the RAF merc units out there, head to Gienah, conquer it, and build the Republic Empire. Trade places with the Wolves.
At some point a long time ago I’d come up with a wild plotline that basically amounted to a RotS in exile retaking the corridor wolves conquered to get to Terra, and basing their capital on Callison. Basically, they become what cuts Alaric off from the Empire. I think the EA map shanked that at least as far as June 3152
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That said every Successor State currently produces and makes use of Clan technology. The Capellans may not be able to make machines of the calibur of the Juliano yet, but Inner Sphere states were already winning fights of regiment vs cluster before the availability of Clan tech reached current levels.
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The SYD epilogue was silly anyway. Telegraphing the survival of a faction so many years down the line kinda spoiled things for those of us who were enjoying the ride of seeing the metaplot unfolding in real-time. I'm personally glad it was retconned out of existence, because it had no business existing to begin with.
I agree. I think there’s no positives to the 3250 blurbs in recent TROs. I feel the same about SYD’s ending. I only mentioned it because it contradicts basic assumptions people have about the republic.
Any future glimpses in a setting that isn’t ending/over are a mistake. There’s nothing to be gained from “and then this organization survived!,” because it robs tension from any threat they face until the lore passes that event.
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as the 3250 stuff. I'd argue that seemed like attempts by the leading devs and writers to project their favored plans much farther into the battletech future then it should have been.
The 3250 stuff was less about a favored plan and more a road not taken by TPTB, because they were planning a time jump to 3250.
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Plans change, it happens. A lot of the plans for ending the Blackout have undergone revisions, sometime after products for a previously determined path have hit print. These are small bumps in the road, not the destination.
I like the direction story dev is headed, but I'm an impartial party.
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The 3250 blurbs are pretty much moot anyway. Since we're not doing any more large time jumps, we won't actually get to 3250 until around the same time the 11th Terran Rangers get founded. If they really, really feel the need to do away with them they can always just say "that was just Alaric writing fan fiction about himself" but that decision won't need to be made for another few decades.
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I want to like the direction things are going, but between the clear shifts in direction on some things due to changing line developers, to say nothing of the double gut punches of foolery that were HotW and the RasDom half of DD (the first BT book I actually kinda wish I didn't buy), it's a little difficult to maintain optimism for the future. But we'll see how things shake out, I suppose. Definitely gonna wait for a few reviews from posters whose taste I trust before I drop anything on iKEO.
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I would not look down too much on DD, as it appears that an identity crisis has been forming in background among the Clans for some time. It feels sudden because there was very little in the fiction to point it out. The Clans moving to the Inner Sphere had deep lasting effects in part because their very model of life could only fail in the Inner Sphere. The Clans had relied on a zinger of a platonic noble lie. Of the Clans it appears that the Bears had an apt transition, but one that ate up a lot of their culture that was assumed defining. Still one also that lead to a bloody war. The Mongols had some similar issues in their distinctive Khanates. There was for instance a lot of intrigue between the sinophiles and those who preferred the older ways. There are problems, but covering the identity crisis of the Clans will make them more interesting in the long haul. I think the Wolves have the deepest problems of the bunch.
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I would not look down too much on DD, as it appears that an identity crisis has been forming in background among the Clans for some time. It feels sudden because there was very little in the fiction to point it out. The Clans moving to the Inner Sphere had deep lasting effects in part because their very model of life could only fail in the Inner Sphere. The Clans had relied on a zinger of a platonic noble lie. Of the Clans it appears that the Bears had an apt transition, but one that ate up a lot of their culture that was assumed defining. Still one also that lead to a bloody war. The Mongols had some similar issues in their distinctive Khanates. There was for instance a lot of intrigue between the sinophiles and those who preferred the older ways. There are problems, but covering the identity crisis of the Clans will make them more interesting in the long haul. I think the Wolves have the deepest problems of the bunch.
No offense intended, truly, but I really don't need to have DD explained to me for the umpteenth time. I get all that. And I still deeply disliked it to the point where if it were a physical copy, I'd have returned it. If you enjoyed it, awesome, but my comment was about how I felt, and I wasn't asking for a rebuttal on my personal taste.
This poor thread. ;D To somewhat bring it back on-topic, I think the way Church feels about the execution of the Republic's last days is rooted in the same reason I disliked DD so much: it seems like a square peg was shoved into a round hole in order to move the story from Point A to Point B, and the final result was really difficult to swallow.
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No offense intended, truly, but I really don't need to have DD explained to me for the umpteenth time. I get all that. And I still deeply disliked it to the point where if it were a physical copy, I'd have returned it. If you enjoyed it, awesome, but my comment was about how I felt, and I wasn't asking for a rebuttal on my personal taste.
This poor thread. ;D
It is all good. I was not trying to rub it in, just play up the goodies that could come from it. I agree that a black hole is robbing the Republic from influence.
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It is all good. I was not trying to rub it in, just play up the goodies that could come from it.
I did enjoy seeing all of the different groups that make up the RasDom and them getting "airtime", so to speak. That's really the only positive I have to say about it, but it was an especially big positive because we really haven't seen much attention paid to them, much less the RasDom as a whole. Universe-building is always welcome in my book. I just wish it felt more organic and logical and less "ripped from American headlines", but it is what it is.
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I would not look down too much on DD, as it appears that an identity crisis has been forming in background among the Clans for some time. It feels sudden because there was very little in the fiction to point it out. The Clans moving to the Inner Sphere had deep lasting effects in part because their very model of life could only fail in the Inner Sphere. The Clans had relied on a zinger of a platonic noble lie. Of the Clans it appears that the Bears had an apt transition, but one that ate up a lot of their culture that was assumed defining. Still one also that lead to a bloody war. The Mongols had some similar issues in their distinctive Khanates. There was for instance a lot of intrigue between the sinophiles and those who preferred the older ways. There are problems, but covering the identity crisis of the Clans will make them more interesting in the long haul. I think the Wolves have the deepest problems of the bunch.
I'll look down on it, and without hesitation, because they didn't do the background work that makes the story consistent.
In some ways, it's right there with the same reason Church doesn't like what happened with the Republic. the event itself wasn't the issue, it was dumping it out on the page and then being surprised when the audience didn't groove with it, it was "Hey, lets toss all the development we did that made this faction have fans at all!! Yeah, that'll work!!"
With DD, they went so far as to completely forget all the factors that were actually already present, and invent some totally new strawman to drive the action.
In the case of the RoTS, it's worse. (yeah, I said 'worse') because none of it really holds together beyond retreading "Clanner more powerful you lose!!" mixed with "Yet another Steiner-Davion scion."
Really, the strategy was that bad, bad enough that trying to explain it looks like bagging on the Republic-because to get that level of incompetent and explain it, you end up having to bag on the Republic.
Pardoe's claimed model was "Downfall"-where the 3rd Reich ended. The problem is, that downfall was driven by the fact that the 3rd Reich was so absolutely corrupt right out of the gate, and that's not the characterization of the Republic in all the material leading up to it.
The Republic didn't have an officer class driven to becoming so cynical they lied about their conditions, or a leadership so monofocused that they would kill someone for delivering bad news, the republic did NOT have units reading the writing on the wall and deserting their posts to surrender en-masse to one ally in order to avoid fighting the other. The Republic didn't have conscripted children in front line formations because they'd used up their military age men to such a degree that was practical, the Republic didn't have death camps that had higher priority than line combat units in the middle of a ****** rout on the front lines.
His scenario basis was wrong, which made the product feel forced. The same applies in many respects to Dominions Divided, because the events were grossly out of character and a time skip doesn't cure that.
Human nature: people tend to settle into patterns of behavior that work for them, and are seen as working for those with whom they, in turn work. There were no precursors or indicators that the events in Dominions Divided was in any way, shape, or form, consistent with what was clearly (before it was published) working well enough to mud-stomp the Draconis Combine twice between the Jihad and Gray Monday.
the amount of cheap epoxy between the steel parts is visible and obvious.
This goes for both products.
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The Fall of the Republic was a pellucid plot device. I do not think that the writers have tried to hide that but have focused on what can be built from it like a lot of new mercenary commands.
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Because that's what BattleTech needed instead of the Republic: more mercenaries!
::)
(not rolling my eyes at you, FYI, but the situation)
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Because that's what BattleTech needed instead of the Republic: more mercenaries!
::)
"Yeah, they have nice gear, no way to replace or supply it, and didn't these guys run like a bitch while their nation fell? Offer a quarter what they're asking, and don't expect them to fight."
Reputation is critical, the Dragoons could rebuild quickly between Misery and subsequent events, and got offered Outreach based on their reputation.
Most REpublic units are going to have shit for rep, especially if how the fall of Terra really happened gets out.
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One of the old problems with mercenary units was how they outclassed house units. It was overdone. I have argued in past threads the the Wolf's Dragoons were the storyline for much of the early history of Battletech. I did not hold the same objection to all powerful mercenary commands.
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MadCap kinda agreed:
If the property owned by your unit constitutes one or more planetary surfaces.......your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your merc unit's solo operations can accurately described as a "front" in an interstellar war.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your merc unit's custom 'Mech design is now a made-to-order product of a major manufacturing firm.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your counter-intelligence team's training manual is the target of a major ROM operation.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
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MadCap kinda agreed:
good point.
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The 3250 stuff was less about a favored plan and more a road not taken by TPTB, because they were planning a time jump to 3250.
True, but in that case, they should be removed from the publications if they are now non-canon. Same as the epilogue for SYD was.
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Just because we're not having a time jump from 3150 to 3250 doesn't mean that they're not canon. And I don't know why anyone is acting like just because Herb's planned time jump was canceled means that Battletech will never see another time jump again: Battletech has had plenty of time jumps before so there's no reason to assume they're never going to do so again.
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I really do feel bad for OP at this point, but if we're gonna talk about DD again, I wanna share my own opinion on that one. Of the four ilclan sourcebooks, it was by far the weakest and the most "plotty". Like, sooo many things for the RasalDom takes place because the plot calls for it, not because they make any sense. Very much like HotW, TBH. Now, maybe if the Bears had gotten their own novel or two BEFORE this mess came out, the RD stuff would have felt more natural. As it was, it felt like tons of tension was magically pulled out of knowwhere to explain away the events necessary for the plot (ie the destabilization of the Dominion, the vote to join the Third SL, the social crises and the decision to go to war with the Dragons). I'm hoping that DD was an aberration, and the next sourcebook will return to the high of EA, but I am a bit concerned.
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Just because we're not having a time jump from 3150 to 3250 doesn't mean that they're not canon. And I don't know why anyone is acting like just because Herb's planned time jump was canceled means that Battletech will never see another time jump again: Battletech has had plenty of time jumps before so there's no reason to assume they're never going to do so again.
The issue, for me at least, isn't the cancelled timejump, but the events that are "hinted" at after said timejump. As it sits now, keeping the 3250 stuff canon means a limitation on the future writers and devs, as they are forced to deal with an (apparent) large ilClan that rules a very significant part of the Inner Sphere. As the century timeskip has been confirmed abandoned, then the potential millstone should be removed.
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I don't recall any of the hints confirming anything beyond there being an ilClan.
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I don't recall any of the hints confirming anything beyond there being an ilClan.
Several things were mentioned in the 3250 stuff. From Sarna's page on the "third" Star league:
"While the exact makeup of this Star League's government is unknown, it did include an ilKhan and a Loremaster.[1] Territory-wise, the League excluded as least part of the Periphery.[4]
Dissenting forces such as the Lost Command and "Renegades" had emerged as opponents to the League by 3250. Units known as Auditor Clusters were tasked with seeking out unauthorized industry and military manufacturing throughout both the League and the Periphery, in part to forestall these dissidents' efforts."
So that's a not insignificant amount of hints. Moreover, I'd argue that establishing that an ilClan exists in 3250 is by itself a problem. Its the same same issue of SYD's epilogue establishing a surviving Republic in the 3150s.
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That's hints that something his happening, but assuming what it is is like making assumptions based on the minute bits of lore that were included with the Mechwarrior: Dark Age starter box. You know, the ones that when we finally actually got a good look at the Dark Age turned out to be wildly different from what people actually thought they were going to be because we didn't have the big picture.
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Just because we're not having a time jump from 3150 to 3250 doesn't mean that they're not canon. And I don't know why anyone is acting like just because Herb's planned time jump was canceled means that Battletech will never see another time jump again: Battletech has had plenty of time jumps before so there's no reason to assume they're never going to do so again.
I said that they weren't doing any large time jumps, and the reason that I think that is because Ray outright said that they weren't and identified the huge jump from Jihad to dark age as a major mistake during a live stream.
To that end, I can't imagine them doing a jump larger than a decade or two ever again, because forcibly retiring everybody's characters is kind of lame.
True, but in that case, they should be removed from the publications if they are now non-canon. Same as the epilogue for SYD was.
I think I should point out that the difference is that the ilClan is a plot device that CGL's writers came up with, whereas the Republic is a piece of furniture they inherited from a different company. They may be more interested in keeping some form of the idea that they had around then the thing they never wanted in the first place.
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The Fall of the Republic was a pellucid plot device. I do not think that the writers have tried to hide that but have focused on what can be built from it like a lot of new mercenary commands.
It was a plot device to enable a story about another faction who has no thematic relation to the RotS. That’s a bad plot device. Look at the Jags. Jags died because they were representative of the worst parts of the clans, and their death slammed shut the clan invasion. RotS just died for the ilClan to be born.
So, on a high level, I was okay with the Republic falling. I think killing a major faction in a wargame is generally a bad idea, but it can be done. But if you do, a few things should happen:
1) It should be done with a sober respect of what is happening.
2) It should really be because of the actions of the faction itself.
3) The plot of that storyline should be focused on that faction.
4) The faction should get to extract a cost from those who end it.
None of that occurred. That’s why the fall feels bad. The author openly hated the faction and compared them to the third reich, a the story was about the wolves, the RotS died because it was in Alaric’s way, and it achieved 0 - count them - zero victories and inflicted functionally zero losses on either clan. All that in half a novel where they weren’t even Alaric’s real obstacle. It was a damn insulting way to end the faction. Which, somehow, was supposed to actually be worsenifnyou read about the removed bits of the book that were so bad even they were abandoned (where the RAF immediately and gleefully shacked up with Alaric to curbstomp the horses).
The fall of the republic would have been easier to accept if they’d just died at the end of Shattered Fortress with “and then Alaric took Terra” and no details offered.
And while canonshop looks for an in universe explanation for the whole sequence… I have given up trying because it really isn’t possible. It doesn’t make sense, they shouldn’t have lost, and Wolves as ilClan in the way they achieved it isnt justifiable with preexisting in universe logic. You can’t even reconcile HotW’s story inside HotW. The numbers inside the novel make no sense.
So yeah. That’s my issue. As Tassa put it. Square peg, round hole.
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Does Alaric even have overwhelming numbers at present?
Alaric has a handful of Warships (most of them need service now) and I think he has 29 clusters left on Terra. His empire raised 2 Galaxies out of what they had If my memory serves me right and those are currently getting kicked around or even absorvbed by the Dragoons and the Free worlds. Yes alaric offered all bonded RAf troopers a chance to fight for him but from what I understood is that a good portion of the Ilclan trial survivors told him to shove it because they didn't want female Hitler to rule Terra. And I am pretty sure 29 clusters who are probably not at full strength is not enpugh to stop the confederation even of they lost some line units due to the wall and ifghting against the Fedsuns. And let's not forget just like Amaris abandoned his home realm Alaric did the same and is now paying for it. He is very reliant on the good graces of the foxes to keep Terra's military production running and it seems as if the foxes are extracting a hefty price for it.
Also who said Terra can run on Auto pilot? You know what was lost during the trial? Geneva, the nerve center of Terra (thanks to the Falcons no less) Yes Alaric is rebuilding Unity City but try to rule a planet of 10-12 billion people who might live through some very serious shortages right now without proper ministries. Alaric can't pull the "I destroy you for being uppity" card often lest he turns the entire planet against him. After all there are still a lot of ex-RAF soldiers on the planet (not to mention special forces or Phantoms). They don't forget how to use simple weapons just because their employer is gone. Heck we don't even know if Japan has told the Wolves to suck it and come get them either. For all we know they might still be playing "Fortress Japan" since they were never beaten. And coming to my first point: alaric doesn't have reinforcements. No new Wolf warriors are coming. IF there is only a slight resistance movement on the planet that manages o kill some warriors that sting is felt.
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Alaric has a handful of Warships (most of them need service now) and I think he has 29 clusters left on Terra. His empire raised 2 Galaxies out of what they had If my memory serves me right and those are currently getting kicked around or even absorvbed by the Dragoons and the Free worlds. Yes alaric offered all bonded RAf troopers a chance to fight for him but from what I understood is that a good portion of the Ilclan trial survivors told him to shove it because they didn't want female Hitler to rule Terra. And I am pretty sure 29 clusters who are probably not at full strength is not enpugh to stop the confederation even of they lost some line units due to the wall and ifghting against the Fedsuns. And let's not forget just like Amaris abandoned his home realm Alaric did the same and is now paying for it. He is very reliant on the good graces of the foxes to keep Terra's military production running and it seems as if the foxes are extracting a hefty price for it.
I haven’t checked to see what Capellan units near Terra are just mech or which ones are RCTs. But Capellans should have something like 25-30 regiments spread across a dozen worlds near Terra. If we still believe for some reason than a cluster can fight a regiment, Capellans should have a little more strength near Terra than Capellans. Falcons and Jags don’t meaningfully affect that.
With initiative, Alaric could try to quickly hit worlds, inflict casualties while trying to achieve defeat in detail. So he doesn’t have overwhelming numbers overall, but could try to concentrate force for overwhelming numbers right that moment. That said, all it takes is Alaric’s Intel to be wrong once for that to backfire and he suffers casualties amongst his forces. Or Capellans are set up to respond faster than Alaric anticipated.
So, not really overwhelming force in the typical way.
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The Capellans by nature make extensive use of combined arms, RCTs are a concept that was always weird in-universe. I will keep the RCT rant out of it, assume the Cappies have extensive armor and infantry concentrations. The aerospace arm was traditionally their weakness.
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Question is will Alaric be fighting alone or will he have his allied force fight with the Wolf touman? Something appears to have happened or been suggested on Northwind with Falcons with what gleam of promo stuff I've seen. I do think the rebuilding Clans Smoke Jaguar & Falcons would be assisting with the fight.
As for others (not counting the Hell's Horses or possibly Sea Foxes) I'd expect the Ghost Bears in some degree and Ravens would be involved as well.
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Question is will Alaric be fighting alone or will he have his allied force fight with the Wolf touman? Something appears to have happened or been suggested on Northwind with Falcons with what gleam of promo stuff I've seen. I do think the rebuilding Clans Smoke Jaguar & Falcons would be assisting with the fight.
As for others (not counting the Hell's Horses or possibly Sea Foxes) I'd expect the Ghost Bears in some degree and Ravens would be involved as well.
The Bears are supposed to be heading for a war against the Combine at a horrible time to do so. Expect a massacre, the DCMS will have achieved a clawing if you will.
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It was a plot device to enable a story about another faction who has no thematic relation to the RotS. That’s a bad plot device. Look at the Jags. Jags died because they were representative of the worst parts of the clans, and their death slammed shut the clan invasion. RotS just died for the ilClan to be born.
So, on a high level, I was okay with the Republic falling. I think killing a major faction in a wargame is generally a bad idea, but it can be done. But if you do, a few things should happen:
1) It should be done with a sober respect of what is happening.
2) It should really be because of the actions of the faction itself.
3) The plot of that storyline should be focused on that faction.
4) The faction should get to extract a cost from those who end it.
None of that occurred. That’s why the fall feels bad. The author openly hated the faction and compared them to the third reich, a the story was about the wolves, the RotS died because it was in Alaric’s way, and it achieved 0 - count them - zero victories and inflicted functionally zero losses on either clan. All that in half a novel where they weren’t even Alaric’s real obstacle. It was a damn insulting way to end the faction. Which, somehow, was supposed to actually be worsenifnyou read about the removed bits of the book that were so bad even they were abandoned (where the RAF immediately and gleefully shacked up with Alaric to curbstomp the horses).
The fall of the republic would have been easier to accept if they’d just died at the end of Shattered Fortress with “and then Alaric took Terra” and no details offered.
And while canonshop looks for an in universe explanation for the whole sequence… I have given up trying because it really isn’t possible. It doesn’t make sense, they shouldn’t have lost, and Wolves as ilClan in the way they achieved it isnt justifiable with preexisting in universe logic. You can’t even reconcile HotW’s story inside HotW. The numbers inside the novel make no sense.
So yeah. That’s my issue. As Tassa put it. Square peg, round hole.
thank you for finally acknowledging what I was trying to do-find some way to reconcile the incredible lack of story logic behind the events as shown, and far too much of it felt really forced hard.
It almost feels like they forgot the unspoken rule of fiction: Unlike reality, Fiction has to make sense or it doesn't work.
I'm speaking on a thing called "Internal consistency" now, where a rule-is-a-rule and if you're going to change it, you have to explain it, or you're cheating the audience. In my view, Dominions Divided and Hour of The Woilf both violated the hell out of that basic rule of good fiction (even good pulp fiction). If superman is bulletproof in chapter one, and he's supposed to be shot dead in chapter fifty one, there better be a scene where Lex Luthor's pressing green kryptonite into a .45 hollowpoint somewhere in the intervening chapters. If the Heroes are greenies in chapter one and they have to fight the super-elite badasses in chapter 50, then a good chunk of hte book better be mentioning how they're getting trained and experienced and ready if they're supposed to win that fight.
and so on.
This sort of thing-this preservation of narrative consistency? it was flushed down the loo, or you can say buried under the outhouse, just so someone could resurrect the Smoked Jags and kill off the Republic-which in the past I HAVE pointed out some minor inconsistencies with-but those pale compared to how that faction was ended, because they didn't even bother with a reasonable explanation, or even reasonably satisfying fight scenes to distract from the lack of thought into plot or character.
We didn't even get Baysplosions and lens flares here. It was like Uwe Boll was making a 'mechwarrior movie to dodge the german tax man.
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Question is will Alaric be fighting alone or will he have his allied force fight with the Wolf touman? Something appears to have happened or been suggested on Northwind with Falcons with what gleam of promo stuff I've seen. I do think the rebuilding Clans Smoke Jaguar & Falcons would be assisting with the fight.
As for others (not counting the Hell's Horses or possibly Sea Foxes) I'd expect the Ghost Bears in some degree and Ravens would be involved as well.
Falcons - just one cluster
Jags - maaaaaybe two clusters
Foxes - may or not be involved, at most 5 clusters if they wholly abandon all other interests in the region to aid Alaric. I don’t see that.
Ravens - a Star of warships and an unknown number of clusters with. I think someone worked out at most 6 clusters could be carried with the assets mentioned.
Bears - nope.
Horses - nope.
Cats - already busy being Fox’s hatchetmen in the Empire this moment.
So wolves have access to 2 clusters of allies for sure, maybe 3. With up to 11 more, but fron clans likely to ask “what’s in it for me?” Ravens 5 warships would be in the same boat where Alaric is gonna need a hell of a carrot to convince ravens to throw them into combat.
And this is all relevant to ilKEO and maybe a short time after. Over long enough time, a lot can change and happen to gain allies
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It'll be an uphill climb for sure.
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TBH Five Warships is a game changer especially against the Capellans. They have a singular Feng Huang Cruiser, a good design with a lot of fighters that MIGHT be able to fight against the Wolves ships long enough to ground the ground forces. If the Ravens appear with their Naval Star, it will be Alshain and the Avengers all over again, or Task Force Vengeance.
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It'll be an uphill climb for sure.
Ah, but you're forgetting something basic; Alaric's fated, he's the concentrate of fiat from being the culmination of Hanse's genes. Every successful leader this far, has had them, starting with Hanse, followed by Victor (well, successful militarily), then Sun Tzu (apparently also a bastard of Hanse, and the only successful/sane leader the Cappies ever had) mixed with the fiat of the totemic Wolf, (Wolf's Dragoons-most successful mercs EVER, Clan Wolf, most successful CLAN ever.)
The shining boy just needs to show up and his enemies lose 100 IQ points (Witness: Hour of the Wolf).
It's in the bag and it's telegraphed. the absolute MOST that will happen is one or two cosmetic losses that aren't in any way shape or form significant, followed by the Wolf Clan march to absolute rule (with a few stragglers here and there to pretend they've got opponents.)
The problem here, is that it was telegraphed. the 3250 bits might be 'off the table' but you can bet they're still in the driver's seat, if htey weren't, then the fight for Terra would have been...well...at least a real fight, and there would be some sign or semblance of actual opposition besides the Liaos that the Wolves are going to mud-stomp even harder than they stomped the Republic-numbers disparity or not.
why? because it's telegraphed already that way.
as I outlined, what I'd like to see, is some actual resistance, something on the order of the Republic's people actually being sick of being everyone else's chew toy and standing up (or sneaking around), making their occupiers' lives hell and waging an actual war to make up for the, frankly insulting-to-the-reader action in Hour of the Wolf.
Some semblance of a scene that maybe taking the king's castle doesn't get you the crown, and taking it cheaply doesn't mean you'll be able to hold it.
It's the one thing we've NEVER SEEN with Clan Wolf-actual resistance that hurts.
I want to see that, I want to see that a hell of a lot more than a passel of forgettable mooks piled into a new Mercs Handbook.
Invading the Republic should be an act somwhat akin to attempting to make love to a wasp's nest without protection in high summmer-the first thrust might stun and disrupt them, but the inhabitants will make you pay.
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Some semblance of a scene that maybe taking the king's castle doesn't get you the crown, and taking it cheaply doesn't mean you'll be able to hold it.
Pretty sure that was the entire point of Devlin Stone's deathbed scene with Alaric and Chance, Cannonshop.
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We’ve also seen a non-trivial amount of what the immediate section around Terra looks like by June 3152.
Wolves gained nothing around Terra from about 7 o’clock (FWL) around to about 2 o’clock (DC). Falcon OZ is empty. FWL conceded nothing. Bears took 2 planets, DC held theirs. Some specific planets aren’t shown, so it’s possible wolves took a planet in old Falcon OZ, but we can see the territory layout.
The only place left for them to have success in the next 12 months (June ‘51 to June ‘52) is against Capellan worlds and the three remaining RotS (technically independent now) worlds.
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RotS just died for the ilClan to be born.
So, on a high level, I was okay with the Republic falling. I think killing a major faction in a wargame is generally a bad idea, but it can be done. But if you do, a few things should happen:
1) It should be done with a sober respect of what is happening.
2) It should really be because of the actions of the faction itself.
3) The plot of that storyline should be focused on that faction.
4) The faction should get to extract a cost from those who end it.
None of that occurred.
For #1 and #2, everything that eventually caused the Republic to fail, happened as a results of the choices of the Republicans themselves. The whole early MWDA Fiction was about how the in the absent of the HPG knitting everything together, the Republic armed forced splintered into more than a dozen different groups, and how all of the infighting prevented the Republic from being able to meet the challenges of the blackout.... and then the Wall went up closing the door for anyone stuck on the outside coming back together to pursue a common ideal.
It's Battletech decline and fall of the Roman Empire, the story if epic and tragic. Unfortunately tainted by BLP's choice of completely unlikable the from the Mother-Killing Alaric, and antagonist, the Downfall inspired Stone, against a mad Malvina was not a good pairing of characters. However, the metaplot of HotW/iClan ultimately doesn't feel out of place in the Fall of the Honorable (Roman) Republic, to evil (Barabians) clans.
I will give you #3. Making Alaric the protagonist, especially after he killed his mother, only works for it set him up from greek tragedy style fall. That might have worked if the IKEO Novel dropped before Empire Alone. Now it's just been too long. Having the POV be the Lament pilot or Republic only characters would have been more satisfying. The Republic dies, but the Republicans get some wins on the way out.
#4 has been foreshadowed to death that taking Terra was a poison apple and its not going to go well for the person who did it. There is clearly still final act to play out, and what it all means has yet to be written.
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Pretty sure that was the entire point of Devlin Stone's deathbed scene with Alaric and Chance, Cannonshop.
And it wasn't a very convincing argument after HotW spent the last several hundred pages begging me to believe that Alaric was the smartest and coolest guy ever simply because he was the only person allowed to be as smart as a normal human. If people are sour on the idea of the Alaric story having a satisfying conclusion it's because the whole thing is now fruit of a poisoned tree.
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And it wasn't a very convincing argument after HotW spent the last several hundred pages begging me to believe that Alaric was the smartest and coolest guy ever simply because he was the only person allowed to be as smart as a normal human. If people are sour on the idea of the Alaric story having a satisfying conclusion it's because the whole thing is now fruit of a poisoned tree.
Definitely not arguing for its legitimacy either way, just pointing out that it exists.
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The original poison pill was injected at the beginning of A Bonfire of Worlds.
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Speaking of warships. Did the Wolves capture the Shipyards in Terran Space? If they hold that the repairs to the Wolf Fleet is a doable prospect. Not sure there is any Republic warships that would be salvageable. If so a Capellan Invasion fleet would have a uphill fight even to land troops.
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The extremely limited fleet that the Republic had at their disposal despite a decade of uninterrupted production suggests those shipyards weren't exactly up to snuff even before the fighting started.
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Speaking of warships. Did the Wolves capture the Shipyards in Terran Space? If they hold that the repairs to the Wolf Fleet is a doable prospect. Not sure there is any Republic warships that would be salvageable. If so a Capellan Invasion fleet would have a uphill fight even to land troops.
IIRC, they did capture Titan yards, but belters are telling them to get bent.
Fun tidbit there. Elements of Treason: Honor spoiler:
The wolves only allowed one warship per clan to attend his crowning and they had to orbit Mars. Fine. That by itself wasn’t suspicious. What was of interest is that the Wolf warship that’s guarding the other clan warships in EoT:H is listed as “eventually scuttled” in ilClan. So his guardian ship was basically just an orbiting corpse to put on a show. Which basically means Alaric’s show of strength - at least in space - in that book is a giant bluff.
Given time to repair a warship, there might not be anything more to read here than he didn’t have time for repairs, but it could also be a sign of shipyard troubles.
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IIRC, they did capture Titan yards, but belters are telling them to get bent.
Fun tidbit there. Elements of Treason: Honor spoiler:
The wolves only allowed one warship per clan to attend his crowning and they had to orbit Mars. Fine. That by itself wasn’t suspicious. What was of interest is that the Wolf warship that’s guarding the other clan warships in EoT:H is listed as “eventually scuttled” in ilClan. So his guardian ship was basically just an orbiting corpse to put on a show. Which basically means Alaric’s show of strength - at least in space - in that book is a giant bluff.
Given time to repair a warship, there might not be anything more to read here than he didn’t have time for repairs, but it could also be a sign of shipyard troubles.
Belters aren't the only Techs available. The Wolves Already are contracting repairs on Terra to the Foxes and they have there own techs as well. The Ravens would also be a good 'goto' for getting shipyard help. And as for the defense and the Jade Falcon warships are still a going concern unless I missed something.
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I mean the McKenna is still a serious contender even slightly damaged.
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Belters aren't the only Techs available. The Wolves Already are contracting repairs on Terra to the Foxes and they have there own techs as well. The Ravens would also be a good 'goto' for getting shipyard help. And as for the defense and the Jade Falcon warships are still a going concern unless I missed something.
Snow Ravens can barely maintain their own ships due to lack of infrastructure in the RA.
Didn't Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon end up with 10+ warships between them following the Battle of Terra?
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I will give you #3. Making Alaric the protagonist, especially after he killed his mother, only works for it set him up from greek tragedy style fall.
Eh, Kathrine wasn't exactly a sympathetic character herself. Not to say that Alaric made a good protagonist, because he was a horrible one.
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Snow Ravens can barely maintain their own ships due to lack of infrastructure in the RA.
Didn't Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon end up with 10+ warships between them following the Battle of Terra?
4 combat ready, 3 badly in need of repairs, 5 destroyed. This is based on a mix of ilclan and scrawling through MUL.
IlClan wolves have:
McKenna (SLS McKenna’s Pride)
Cameron (Turkina’s Pride)
Sovetskii Soyuz (Dire Wolf)
Liberator (Victoria Ward)
Black Lion (Jade Aerie, White Aerie)
Fredasa (Jade Tornado)
Victoria ward and both black lions are in need of major repairs as far as I can tell. Victoria is in dry dock for sure
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Eh, Kathrine wasn't exactly a sympathetic character herself. Not to say that Alaric made a good protagonist, because he was a horrible one.
He was a fine protagonist (or villainous one) in a Bonfire of Worlds. But he should have died on Terra right at the cusp of his triumph.
At the hands of Devlin Stone, trading PPC shots to each others' cockpits.
4 combat ready, 3 badly in need of repairs, 5 destroyed. This is based on a mix of ilclan and scrawling through MUL.
IlClan wolves have:
McKenna (SLS McKenna’s Pride)
Cameron (Turkina’s Pride)
Sovetskii Soyuz (Dire Wolf)
Liberator (Victoria Ward)
Black Lion (Jade Aerie, White Aerie)
Fredasa (Jade Tornado)
Victoria ward and both black lions are in need of repairs as far as I can tell. Victoria is in dry dock for sure
Ah, that's way more dire than I thought. Wow, I guess the Republic Aerospace really did a number on the Clan fleets.
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He was a fine protagonist (or villainous one) in a Bonfire of Worlds. But he should have died on Terra right at the cusp of his triumph.
At the hands of Devlin Stone, trading PPC shots to each others' cockpits.
Eh, that scenario means that Malvina wins. Should be him putting a PPC through her cockpit only for her missiles to hit him moments later, sending shrapnel through his torso- he lives long enough to be declared the victor, then bleeds out.
But as far as what may or may not happen in the future, on thing I'd like to see: the other Clans are given irrefutable proof that he hired the Dragoons to help him fight the Falcons.
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But as far as what may or may not happen in the future, on thing I'd like to see: the other Clans are given irrefutable proof that he hired the Dragoons to help him fight the Falcons.
They already know the Dragoons were fighting for the Wolves, since the BloodRibbon ceremony was held publicly at Unity City. Would they even care?
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Snow Ravens can barely maintain their own ships due to lack of infrastructure in the RA.
Didn't Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon end up with 10+ warships between them following the Battle of Terra?
Infrastructure that they have available now in the Sol System. Don't forget the Republic built warships there with the limited supplies within the Fortress walls. Repairs should be a bit easier.
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Even if the Wolves didn't have access to the Terran system's facilities, there's always the Sea Foxes. It would hardly be the first time that the Foxes took Wolf (and Falcon) WarShips out to the Chaine Cluster for repairs.
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Eh, that scenario means that Malvina wins. Should be him putting a PPC through her cockpit only for her missiles to hit him moments later, sending shrapnel through his torso- he lives long enough to be declared the victor, then bleeds out.
But as far as what may or may not happen in the future, on thing I'd like to see: the other Clans are given irrefutable proof that he hired the Dragoons to help him fight the Falcons.
Nah, in the scenario I suggested, the death of Alaric and Stone causes the Battle of Terra to become a free-for-all, as Malvina will seek to take advantage of the chaos in Wolf ranks, and eventually Chance Vickers would probably realize the Republic's a better ally than the Falcons, and together they finish the Falcons off.
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Hard pass. The very last thing I want to see is boring-as-plain-oatmeal Chance Vickers (or worse, Knives Out Chistu) as the ilKhan. That would be utterly anticlimactic.
Say what you will about Alaric, but at least he has a personality to speak of.
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He was a fine protagonist (or villainous one) in a Bonfire of Worlds.
In Bonfire he was an anti-hero made sympathetic in part because he was motivated (in part) by revenge against Anastasia and Revenge against the Lyran's for going after the Clan civilians. Then he offed his mother.
But he should have died on Terra right at the cusp of his triumph.
1000%
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They already know the Dragoons were fighting for the Wolves, since the BloodRibbon ceremony was held publicly at Unity City. Would they even care?
Because Alaric hired mercenaries to fight instead of winning purely by the strength of Clan Wolf. And it was just any fight, it was the Trial of Possession for the ilClanship. That's about as far from the Clan way as one can get. Functionally an admission that Clan Wolf was not actually strong enough to win.
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I know this is a very unrealistic wish, but I would love to see ilClan era Terra become a "King of the Mountain" situation for the Inner Sphere. Have the Liaos push the wolves out, only for themselves to lose to the Bears, who themselves lose to the Dragons, who in turn lose to the Horses. And so on and so forth. It gets to the point where the public wonders whose gonna rule Terra this week. At the least, I think it would make a fun shitpost/crack fic idea. Or a potential April fools product.
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And the 5th Succession IlClan War ends with Magistracy of Canopus being declared victor, despite (or possibly because of) them not having actually entered the war.
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At the least, we'd have the Lyrans, the Feds and the leaguers all watching these idiots fight over Terra, popcorn in hand.
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Because Alaric hired mercenaries to fight instead of winning purely by the strength of Clan Wolf. And it was just any fight, it was the Trial of Possession for the ilClanship. That's about as far from the Clan way as one can get. Functionally an admission that Clan Wolf was not actually strong enough to win.
Did he actually hire them?
Because that would involve providing money in exchange for services which I don't remember happening, instead he offered something alongside admittance to a Clan
He did recruit them but that's usual MO no different than recruiting locals into the Clan military which was regular occurrence even for Falcons
Example of hiring mercenaries would be when Draconis Combine employed Dragoons (not recruited) because they specifically provided monetary compensation for their services on New Avalon
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Did he actually hire them?
Because that would involve providing money in exchange for services which I don't remember happening, instead he offered something alongside admittance to a Clan
Except that they were not admitted into the Clan, they were instead given a bag with a symbolic amount of money (thirty silver coins) and told that they were not and never would be Clanners.
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Except that they were not admitted into the Clan, they were instead given a bag with a symbolic amount of money (thirty silver coins) and told that they were not and never would be Clanners.
I know that part
But getting shafted is not the same thing as not getting hired
Plus I doubt that any Clan would hold shafting this specific mercenary corporation against Wolves
Hell, it would probably be seen as a karmic justice and some sweet trolling
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The point is that Alaric admitted to using non-Clan forces to secure his victory.
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Every time any of them accepts the local or an outsider they are using non-Clan forces, it's daily routine
WDs getting ditched may not be gentlemenly but it has no bearing on trial itself, no money changed hands, they fought because they chose to
Silver was an insult not payment and it happened after the fact
Many mercenaries get shafted routinely, this is par for the course in the setting, it's not even the first time if happened to WDs
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Every time any of them accepts the local or an outsider they are using non-Clan forces, it's daily routine
No, it really isn't. Outsiders might get adopted into a Clan, but you're going to need a citation for Clans that routinely use non-Clan forces fighting alongside them in battle.
WDs getting ditched may not be gentlemenly but it has no bearing on trial itself, no money changed hands, they fought because they chose to
It's not about them getting ditched. It's NEVER been about them getting ditched. It's about them being there in the first place. They did not just show up by coincidence. They were INVITED by Clan Wolf. They fought under the command of Clan Wolf. The trial was supposed to be Clan Wolf vs Clan Jade Falcon, the way Alaric used the Dragoons was functionally like if he and Malvina had been set to fight in an unaugmented Circle of Equals one-on-one, but before she got there he had a thug smack her with a tire iron a couple of times in order to give himself an advantage. That's the point, he relied on outside mercenaries to give himself and edge in a fight. And that's antithetical to Clan doctrine.
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Because Alaric hired mercenaries to fight instead of winning purely by the strength of Clan Wolf. And it was just any fight, it was the Trial of Possession for the ilClanship. That's about as far from the Clan way as one can get. Functionally an admission that Clan Wolf was not actually strong enough to win.
Oh, I get that hiring mercs was bad from the Clan perspective (especially in the Trial of all Trials), but I just don't see the Clans giving much of a damn if they haven't already. All Alaric would have to do is tell them the truth about the whole thing being payback for the Dragoons' own betrayal of the Clans during the invasion, and I bet that'd be good enough for them. And that's assuming they don't already know in the first place.
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One of the promises Alaric made was for the Wolf Dragoons to return home. To once again become Clan formation as it had been formed as. Even as a Inner Sphere unit they would count as descendants of a Clan unit. In many ways it was the same offer made to the Wolves-in-Exile.
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And let's not forget with the HPG grid as full of holes as it is reliable information may not be spreading as rapidly as some of us think and thus the ramifications of some of Alaric's decisions may not have happened yet or even been properly hinted at yet.
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Every time any of them accepts the local or an outsider they are using non-Clan forces, it's daily routine
WDs getting ditched may not be gentlemenly but it has no bearing on trial itself, no money changed hands, they fought because they chose to
Silver was an insult not payment and it happened after the fact
Many mercenaries get shafted routinely, this is par for the course in the setting, it's not even the first time if happened to WDs
Remember that it doesn’t matter what was in Alaric’s head. It matters what happened.
- Alaric bid Clan Wolf in the trial.
- Dragoons fought in the ilClan trial.
- they did not unify with clan wolf. Instead, they were paid in a symbolic amount and in mountains of salvage. Cash and mechs is pretty typical merc payments.
- Dragoons are currently putting boot to Empire neck. So they are not clan wolf. Nobody thinks they are.
To anyone who isn’t clan wolf, Alaric lied in his bid during the most important trial in clan history. From an IS POV, nobody cares. Alaric won and used a dirty trick to do it. Boo hoo. For clans, their ilKhan took his seat by lying in his bid and hiding behind others.
We can’t use “no bidding with IS forces, they aren’t honorable” as something to hide behind. He bid with another khan who set foot on Terra and won. Literally with the only clan equal he had in the sphere. (His other unacknowledged by virtue of not being clan equal being Stone, the only other living commander to conquer Terra.)
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"I bid all of my forces currently on Terra" -Alaric HOTW pg.230
Note how Alaric said "All forces"
Malvina specifies she is bidding her entire clan.
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"I bid all of my forces currently on Terra" -Alaric HOTW pg.230
Note how Alaric said "All forces"
Malvina specifies she is bidding her entire clan.
I was going to comment this but I thought I might have been misremembering the wording of Alaric's bid. So, yeah, if he isn't specifically saying "all Wolf forces" or "all Clan Wolf," then that raised point is moot.
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"I bid all of my forces currently on Terra" -Alaric HOTW pg.230
Note how Alaric said "All forces"
Malvina specifies she is bidding her entire clan.
I was about to quote the same thing: he pulled a sleigh of hand. I’d have to check the rest of the text to confirm but ‘at least in this context’ he doesn’t mention Clan merely all his forces so it doesn’t matter who those forces are. He duped the Dragoons and got them to waste their strength which worked to his advantage (temporarily at least).
I honestly don’t think the other Clans will care as much IC because the bidding was observed and anybody could use the same argument: it’s not his fault Malvina didn’t see what forces were available.
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Hard pass. The very last thing I want to see is boring-as-plain-oatmeal Chance Vickers (or worse, Knives Out Chistu) as the ilKhan. That would be utterly anticlimactic.
Say what you will about Alaric, but at least he has a personality to speak of.
Who's to say either of them would become IlKhan? In a scenario with Alaric dead, you've got Galaxy Commanders who were already chafing at his battle plans. They're going to look at Chance and her unClanlike 'General of the Armies' title, and there's going to be internal political manuevering.
Also, Chance didn't have a personality because virtually no one had a personality in the HOTW or the novels leading up to it. That's not a unique problem for her.
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Who's to say either of them would become IlKhan? In a scenario with Alaric dead, you've got Galaxy Commanders who were already chafing at his battle plans. They're going to look at Chance and her unClanlike 'General of the Armies' title, and there's going to be internal political manuevering.
Which would be even more anticlimactic.
Also, Chance didn't have a personality because virtually no one had a personality in the HOTW or the novels leading up to it. That's not a unique problem for her.
Oh, I'm aware. I read the same books you did. Doesn't make it any better.
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"I bid all of my forces currently on Terra" -Alaric HOTW pg.230
Note how Alaric said "All forces"
Malvina specifies she is bidding her entire clan.
Ah. Okay. I was looking at ilClan page 84.
“Alaric formally declared his bid of the entirety of Clan Wolf’s ground forces, and Malvina followed suit, bidding all of Clan Jade Falcon .”
So there’s some nuance lost in ilClan from HotW.
Still, Alaric never considerd the Goons his forces. Just pawns.
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I donno about you, but pawns consist of the majority of my forces in a chess match.
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I donno about you, but pawns consist of the majority of my forces in a chess match.
Pretty sure Alaric would agree, regardless if the unit in question is bearing Clan Wolf or Dragoons colors. But we're back to arguing semantics. Whether Alaric played them or not, they were still "his" on the ground.
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Which would be even more anticlimactic.
Hard disagree. Seeing a faction tear itself apart following the death of a charismatic leader is fun. Just ask the Republic circa 3132.
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Hard disagree. Seeing a faction tear itself apart following the death of a charismatic leader is fun. Just ask the Republic circa 3132.
Seeing the Wolves tear themselves apart before the new Star League has a chance to get off the ground, and losing the architect of that victory only to wind up with some rando in charge, is the literal definition of anticlimactic. Fortunately, TPTB agree with me.
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Hard disagree. Seeing a faction tear itself apart following the death of a charismatic leader is fun. Just ask the Republic circa 3132.
Not in this case, no. IMO, seeing the Wolves have to face the consequences of their leaders bad decisions is much more satisfying to read. At this point, tossing Alaric is likely to improve the ilClan situation, not hurt it. He can be the beloved martyr, rather then the "genius" who conquered Terra but lost the rest of the Clan.
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Not in this case, no. IMO, seeing the Wolves have to face the consequences of their leaders bad decisions is much more satisfying to read. At this point, tossing Alaric is likely to improve the ilClan situation, not hurt it. He can be the beloved martyr, rather then the "genius" who conquered Terra but lost the rest of the Clan.
a lot of that would have to hinge on presentation. can you be sure that the team responsible for HoTW and Dominions Divided could present that story and actually make it tense and exciting, or would it just end up being bland and somewhat nonsensical, while being obviously pushed as a Plot Device?
Any disintegration story hinges on the readers caring about the people involved. This is one of the major problems with Hour of The Wolf-the faction being dismantled was presented in a way that you just didn't really develop a reason to care if you weren't already a Republic Fan.
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Clans don't follow the rule of law. Alaric's shenanigans with Malvina, or his non-Clan genesourcing only matters as much as it can be used to motivate other warriors to declare a Trial against him. And even then its only a problem is he loses.
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Clans don't follow the rule of law. Alaric's shenanigans with Malvina, or his non-Clan genesourcing only matters as much as it can be used to motivate other warriors to declare a Trial against him. And even then its only a problem is he loses.
I thought Alaric being the permanent IlKhan made him immune from trial challenges? Or was that only in terms of his/Clan Wolf's possession of Terra?
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I thought Alaric being the permanent IlKhan made him immune from trial challenges? Or was that only in terms of his/Clan Wolf's possession of Terra?
Somehow, I doubt a society where authority and legitimacy are granted based on your ability to beat down anyone who argues against you is just going to permanently accept someone is right all the time without having to ever fight for their position ever again.
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a lot of that would have to hinge on presentation. can you be sure that the team responsible for HoTW and Dominions Divided could present that story and actually make it tense and exciting, or would it just end up being bland and somewhat nonsensical, while being obviously pushed as a Plot Device?
Any disintegration story hinges on the readers caring about the people involved. This is one of the major problems with Hour of The Wolf-the faction being dismantled was presented in a way that you just didn't really develop a reason to care if you weren't already a Republic Fan.
Hard to say. DD didn't fill me with much faith, but TR and EA were both very good IMO. Plus, BLP's booting means my concerns over HotW are a bit assuaged. And I don't necessarily mean a total disintegration storyline, but more of a "actions have consequences" one.
Like, the Wolf Empire should fall to the Lyrans and the League, and the Wolves should be very hard pressed to hold Terra from the Liaos. Hell, depending on how the Terra battle goes down (I'd speculated that Alaric might end up getting his butt saved by the Bears, but that was before DD), serious questions over the Wolves' ability to remain the ilClan should be raised. I'd have more of an issue if this turns into the wolves' "somehow" beating the Liaos and rapidly taking territory around Terra.
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I thought Alaric being the permanent IlKhan made him immune from trial challenges? Or was that only in terms of his/Clan Wolf's possession of Terra?
That was just bad (or accidentally good? Not sure until we see more of Terra) writing in HotW. Alaric was arrogantly saying shit to the Horse Khans that isn’t really backed up by anything in clan tradition. The rules for what the ilClan and ilKhan are are very, very vague. So him saying he is beyond being trialed is just straight ego.
At best, the most generous take on immunity to trialing is the ilKhan cannot be trialed by someone just wanting to take their place. The ilKhan gets to choose a successor.
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Not in this case, no. IMO, seeing the Wolves have to face the consequences of their leaders bad decisions is much more satisfying to read. At this point, tossing Alaric is likely to improve the ilClan situation, not hurt it. He can be the beloved martyr, rather then the "genius" who conquered Terra but lost the rest of the Clan.
Forcing Wolves to come to terms with the fact that Alaric has not demonstrated the skills to lead a coalition? See them finally reach the finding out stage? Sure.
Forcing Wolves and Alaric to face consequences? Better.
Seeing Alaric slowly snap and become an erratic leader as he realizes that conquering is not ruling and that he is out of his depth, while having the wolves suffer the finding out stage after the egregious crap in DA and HotW, and then having the clans come to terms with the reality that they - as they exist - are not capable of adequately running the Star league and forcing them to adapt and become something new? Best.
Killing Alaric now is not that useful narratively and would come off like BLP level “f that guy.” It would also be supremely unsatisfying for the second worse person in the setting to achieve everything clans ever wanted and then die a hero.
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This has gone off the rails big time. Maybe a new thread to discuss it?
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This has gone off the rails big time. Maybe a new thread to discuss it?
It’s hard to discuss current RotS without delving into the future of the wolves. Since any sort of RotS remnant in ilClan kind of depends on Wolves stumbling. That said, we can bring it back on topic.
Alright:
Yeah or neah: If RotS is just done, ELH style ex-RAF “carrying on the traditions” merc unit? Then, from what and how large?
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It’s hard to discuss current RotS without delving into the future of the wolves. Since any sort of RotS remnant in ilClan kind of depends on Wolves stumbling. That said, we can bring it back on topic.
Alright:
Yeah or neah: If RotS is just done, ELH style ex-RAF “carrying on the traditions” merc unit? Then, from what and how large?
Well in a way we have that already: the small unit called the Cheetahs which has two former RAf-turned wolf warriors-turned mercenaries and the Ghost knight who bunred down the first wolf supply dump in Australia and they have Revenant, Stone's original Atlas 2 Mech. Maybe they might become something like that though they themselves don't see themselves as Republican anymore
So perhaps getting back on track. could the Republic have survived if Clarion Call had never happened? Let's not forget the Capellans were already rearming for the Capellan Crusades 2 Electric bugaloo and if Stone had dissapeared and the attack had hit I could see the Capellans actually win considering how weak the RAF had become at this point (and let's not forget the big conspiracy victor manged to uncover). And then we might have seen another 5th sucession War when the other houses and clans begin tearing either into each other or trying to conquer parts of the Republic. Of course then we come back to the emergency plans the Republic had (the Wall etc) so we might have landed right back where we are now except functioning HPG's
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My completely unrealistic hope continues to be that Belter intransigence and resistance saps the Wolves of spaceborne assets they desperately need if they intend to conquer any Houses.
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Well in a way we have that already: the small unit called the Cheetahs which has two former RAf-turned wolf warriors-turned mercenaries and the Ghost knight who bunred down the first wolf supply dump in Australia and they have Revenant, Stone's original Atlas 2 Mech. Maybe they might become something like that though they themselves don't see themselves as Republican anymore
So perhaps getting back on track. could the Republic have survived if Clarion Call had never happened? Let's not forget the Capellans were already rearming for the Capellan Crusades 2 Electric bugaloo and if Stone had dissapeared and the attack had hit I could see the Capellans actually win considering how weak the RAF had become at this point (and let's not forget the big conspiracy victor manged to uncover). And then we might have seen another 5th sucession War when the other houses and clans begin tearing either into each other or trying to conquer parts of the Republic. Of course then we come back to the emergency plans the Republic had (the Wall etc) so we might have landed right back where we are now except functioning HPG's
Honestly I do tend to agree very little would have changed if the HPGs were still functioning. Having read a fair bit of Dark Age material now there is a nasty trend I'm spotting of information spreading faster and more reliably than it should with the HPG grid as heavily compromised as it is supposed to be and Black Boxes supposedly not working anymore.
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That was just bad (or accidentally good? Not sure until we see more of Terra) writing in HotW. Alaric was arrogantly saying shit to the Horse Khans that isn’t really backed up by anything in clan tradition. The rules for what the ilClan and ilKhan are are very, very vague. So him saying he is beyond being trialed is just straight ego.
At best, the most generous take on immunity to trialing is the ilKhan cannot be trialed by someone just wanting to take their place. The ilKhan gets to choose a successor.
It's more than just his ego. Clans have a whole set of customs about who get's to issue challenges and when. Trials of Grievance can be banned, Khans only have to accept challenges from a certain level of society and have the right to designate a champion in certain situations. It flows naturally, that the ilKhan being of a higher rank than other does not have to accept ritual challenges from below. While at the same time, nothing is stopping the Horses (or any other Clan) from attempting to invade Terra and attempting to take the ilKhanship from Alaric. Immunity from (ritual) Trials, does not grant immunity from violence.
As for the successor, I would be shocked the TPTB allowed the the ilKhans named successor to ascend without first didn't have to overcome a Trial of Refusal as part of process of ascending to the ilKhanship.
Just trying to bring this around to the Republic.
I know, we don't know what the future looks like, but the Maximalist power of Alaric and Clan Wolf doesn't feel like the expected outcome. Alaric clearly doesn't have the full support of all the IS Clans, let along the power to enforce his will widely across the IS. I am expecting Clan Wolf to take over the role of the Republic with the ilKhan acting as sort of Pope (cultural leader) of the Clans and leader of a new Grand Council, and through the Sea Foxes, as the Primus of ComStar to the Great Houses of the Innersphere. In this way the Republic lives on as the Ultimate buffer state between the great powers of the IS.
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Well in a way we have that already: the small unit called the Cheetahs which has two former RAf-turned wolf warriors-turned mercenaries and the Ghost knight who bunred down the first wolf supply dump in Australia and they have Revenant, Stone's original Atlas 2 Mech. Maybe they might become something like that though they themselves don't see themselves as Republican anymore
I read that story. It’s entirely too much “and then all the important things are collected as one.” I don’t care about the cheetahs. They are too small, with too much contrivance, and are heading to the border where the Dawn Guards already are. But that’s just me not liking the Cheetahs.
Of what we already have, I’d rather see Seychelle’s Stonehearts get focus. A merc unit with a goal beyond “keep being mechjocks”
But that’s too small. I mean a NWH/Goons sized merc unit that alters the course of a theater of war when it arrives. A full regiment of mechs with supporting elements, treated as the sort of crack troops RAF were supposed to be.
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I am expecting Clan Wolf to take over the role of the Republic with the ilKhan acting as sort of Pope (cultural leader) of the Clans and leader of a new Grand Council, and through the Sea Foxes, as the Primus of ComStar to the Great Houses of the Innersphere. In this way the Republic lives on as the Ultimate buffer state between the great powers of the IS.
As wolves exist now, they are completely incapable of that. So there’s an opportunity for growth to reach that, but I don’t see it before they’ve burned a lot of bridges.
In this way the Republic lives on as the Ultimate buffer state between the great powers of the IS.
The republic tried this and eventually failed, even with the wall. It would read like awful continuation of HotW style plot armor if the Wolves suddenly succeed when they have significantly less strength and assets then Republic did before it died.
That, and Alaric’s little announcement at the end of Redemption Rites tells us that Wolves have zero intention of being benevolent leaders to peace.
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My completely unrealistic hope continues to be that Belter intransigence and resistance saps the Wolves of spaceborne assets they desperately need if they intend to conquer any Houses.
I don't see that being a long term issue. Warships and Elementals work well in space and Belters probably won't like them visiting.
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I don't see that being a long term issue. Warships and Elementals work well in space and Belters probably won't like them visiting.
The question is how fortified the Belt currently is. While the Wolves have their ships (not many) and Elementals those are a finite number. Wasting them on a rather small community at this point seems rather contradictory. Even Comstar and the Word left them alone. just imagine if some crazy Belters actually copy the word by mounting rocket drives on some holed out asteroids and then decide to play space bowling. Or perhaps darts with Terra used as target
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My completely unrealistic hope continues to be that Belter intransigence and resistance saps the Wolves of spaceborne assets they desperately need if they intend to conquer any Houses.
Weirdo, you've known me long enough to know that anything I would think up is automatically off the table when it comes to Canon. What you just articulated here is exactly something I'd do, therefore you can be assured that's NOT what's going to happen.
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But that’s too small. I mean a NWH/Goons sized merc unit that alters the course of a theater of war when it arrives. A full regiment of mechs with supporting elements, treated as the sort of crack troops RAF were supposed to be.
I'd love if BattleTech never had another one of those. Multiple smaller commands that turn the tide of individual battles? Sure. I think a lot of the surviving RAF "leadership" could easily move into roles like that. 'Goons holding the entire Kurita front in the 4th SW? Nah. That didn't make much sense the first time around, makes even less sense in the future.
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I don't see that being a long term issue. Warships and Elementals work well in space and Belters probably won't like them visiting.
Any time you think the miniscule number of WarShips any single Clan has access to could cover enough figurative ground to subdue the Belter population in less than a decade or two, you need to scale your thinking up by a factor of a thousand.
Nobody can conquer the Belters, they're far too spread out. The only options are to befriend them or leave them to their own devices. Even Amaris largely left them alone, aside from blowing up the occasional settlement to make himself feel better. Everything we know about Alaric Ward tells us that it is literally impossible for him to do either of those, he WILL try to conquer them. And unless he can bring numbers to bear that would constitute a serious investment by the original SLN, they will remain a thorn in his side for years to come.
The delicious irony is that the entire problem goes away the moment he decides to leave them alone and/or pretend they don't exist, because that's the only thing they want. But he can't, because he's Alaric.
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The question is how fortified the Belt currently is. While the Wolves have their ships (not many) and Elementals those are a finite number. Wasting them on a rather small community at this point seems rather contradictory. Even Comstar and the Word left them alone. just imagine if some crazy Belters actually copy the word by mounting rocket drives on some holed out asteroids and then decide to play space bowling. Or perhaps darts with Terra used as target
Space bowling can definitely show Terrans who's the boss
It's also something that Wolves don't necessarily need to care too much about and can easily sit out in orbit (or anywhere else). Terrans however, not so much, vast majority of them at least
And it also leaves the problem for Belters of what to do about Wolves who now have negative reason to softball anything and the fact that exterminating something is much easier than conquering it as Belters themselves would have just proven with aforementioned space bowling
Belters can't really do anything to Wolves. They can however provide some extra motivation to Terrans to start liking newly vindictive Wolves should they choose to pull Chicxulub redux.
Smartest play for Belters is to simply take the germanium, fix the ships that customer parks in their garage and move on with their lives.
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Smartest play for Belters is to simply take the germanium, fix the ships that customer parks in their garage and move on with their lives.
They'll probably be happy to do that, if Alaric lets them.
He won't. He can't, he'd have an aneurysm first. It's like showing Malvina a bus operated by Nuns 4 Puppies 4 Orphans and telling her she can't turn a plasma cannon on it. He HAS to conquer them, he HAS to shackle them to the Clan Way or kill them. And both of those options are functionally impossible, Belter society is far too spread out for that, he'd be facing the equivalent of the Reunification War, albeit on a much smaller scale and(probably) without the WMDs.
And he can't fight that if he still wants to have enough Clan left over to conquer the rest of humanity afterwards.
Of course, this won't happen. Either the Belters will get completely ignored, or there'll be a sentence or two saying they got crushed and subjugated, without going into any kind of detail. But much like Clan Goliath Scorpion Touman being respected, I chose to keep hope alive in the back of my mind. :grin:
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But much like Clan Goliath Scorpion Touman being respected
:grin:
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without the WMDs.
Have all of the Blakist traps been accounted for?
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Of course, this won't happen. Either the Belters will get completely ignored, or there'll be a sentence or two saying they got crushed and subjugated, without going into any kind of detail.
Most likely
But personally I think that the whole Belter issue has less to do with anything BattleTech related and more with the Belters from the show The Expanse hence why people seem to be giving them way more importance than they would usually have (right down to the whole space bowling thingy)
But much like Clan Goliath Scorpion Touman being respected, I chose to keep hope alive in the back of my mind. :grin:
Respect in a wargame? My dear friend, it's the textbook case of missing the point
Respect does not win wars or build empires, gunfire and planning does
I wouldn't mind Scorpion touman never getting any respect ever as long as they shoot dead anything and anyone silly enough to try shooting at them or attempt causing any inconveniences
Let silly Spheroids and clumsy Clans have all the respect they desire (just look at this tread topic), there are far better things for Scorpions to chase
“It is better to kill something with Warhawk than to be respected, if one cannot have both.” - Khan Enrico Kirov, probably cool
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Respect in a wargame? My dear friend, it's the textbook case of missing the point
The irony of telling someone that they're missing their own point. :grin:
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Honestly Alaric can't leave any group running around the Sol System that isn't under the IlClan thumb. And like I noted earlier he has Elementals and Warships. The Wolves will more likely than not just decide the easiest way to deal with the Belters is to just send a few warships to cruise the belt and deal with there outposts with NPPC fire. Amaris wanted the Belt to knuckle under. Alaric may just deal with the Belt permanently.
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Honestly Alaric can't leave any group running around the Sol System that isn't under the IlClan thumb. And like I noted earlier he has Elementals and Warships. The Wolves will more likely than not just decide the easiest way to deal with the Belters is to just send a few warships to cruise the belt and deal with there outposts with NPPC fire. Amaris wanted the Belt to knuckle under. Alaric may just deal with the Belt permanently.
And that might work against the Belters in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Against the ones out in the Kuiper Belt or even all the way out in the Oort Cloud? That's a good way to get his forces caught up in long protracted fighting that will see them defeated in detail. At least realistically that is what should happen.
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The irony of telling someone that they're missing their own point. :grin:
I was not informed of any rule which states that attempts at humorous interactions are frowned upon on this forum
But if there is one please do let me know if nothing else than to avoid the need for you to perform any pro-bono moderation duties
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And that might work against the Belters in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Against the ones out in the Kuiper Belt or even all the way out in the Oort Cloud? That's a good way to get his forces caught up in long protracted fighting that will see them defeated in detail. At least realistically that is what should happen.
Counts on how long the Belters can reasonably hold on and how much damage and loss of outposts there willing to take. Clan brutality could make the Belt surrender after a few of the larger outposts cease to exist with no survivors.
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Honestly Alaric can't leave any group running around the Sol System that isn't under the IlClan thumb. And like I noted earlier he has Elementals and Warships. The Wolves will more likely than not just decide the easiest way to deal with the Belters is to just send a few warships to cruise the belt and deal with there outposts with NPPC fire. Amaris wanted the Belt to knuckle under. Alaric may just deal with the Belt permanently.
You do not want warships near an area where anything that could fire a Peacemaker is easily camouflaged. This was a lesson from the Jihad.
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Personally, I think it'd be hilarious to see, after all of this hemming and hawing about the Belters, Alaric ignore them entirely.
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Counts on how long the Belters can reasonably hold on and how much damage and loss of outposts there willing to take. Clan brutality could make the Belt surrender after a few of the larger outposts cease to exist with no survivors.
Amaris tried that with a much larger fleet than Alaric had at his height and it did not work.
Alaric simply cannot afford the investment it would take in time, resources, or ships. Because the Belters do still have shipbuilding industry post ilClan and plenty of weapons to put on them.
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Personally, I think it'd be hilarious to see, after all of this hemming and hawing about the Belters, Alaric ignore them entirely.
I feel that that is the most likely outcome.
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That would be funny, and very out of character, though as we all know hypocrisy and ignoring rules and other things when they are inconvenient are the very core of the Clan ethos. Also, I'm not a 100% perfect judge of character, so don't hold it against me if his head doesn't spontaneously explode the moment he says people X aren't worth the hassle of chaining them to a caste.
Maybe it's just my Belgian half that wants to see the Belters play the tiny Gaulish village to Alaric's Roman Empire*. "Ils sont fous, ces hommes de Clans!"
*Yes, I'm aware of the irony there. :grin:
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Male Belter names always end in "ix?"
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It’s hard to discuss current RotS without delving into the future of the wolves. Since any sort of RotS remnant in ilClan kind of depends on Wolves stumbling. That said, we can bring it back on topic.
Alright:
Yeah or neah: If RotS is just done, ELH style ex-RAF “carrying on the traditions” merc unit? Then, from what and how large?
This one is pretty simple, and the setup was already done. The North wind Highlanders expanded to multi-regimental status and Northwwind a truly independent world. The remnants of the RAF can dribble in and form up into as many units as they want.
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This one is pretty simple, and the setup was already done. The North wind Highlanders expanded to multi-regimental status and Northwwind a truly independent world. The remnants of the RAF can dribble in and form up into as many units as they want.
Northwind is the most promising rallying point. 2 jumps, not 1 from Terra, so it’s not a priority to Alaric. Manufacturing world, friendly population, outside cash flow from Duke of Tybalt.
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Northwind is two jumps from Terra? I always thought it was one.
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Alright:
Yeah or neah: If RotS is just done, ELH style ex-RAF “carrying on the traditions” merc unit? Then, from what and how large?
Yawn. Let's do something different for once, not "faction dies and remnants go merc". I mean, maybe the RotS is big enough some of its remnants will follow that path, but i'd put focus on something else.
In this case, something akin to the Azami worlds that provide the Arkab Legions for the Draconis Combine. A "sub-faction" of sorts, something its own cultural identity, army army, etc.
Of course care should be taken to make it clear these worlds have their own feel and style. While the Lyrans kinda had Skye, their feel usually was merely "they rebel against Lyrans", and the Azami of the Draconis Combine are mostly ignored in BT fiction.
Why this way? Going merc seems like contrary to the Republic ideals. Now i suppose it was also against the Star League ideals, but the Star League was far more militaristic as an entity than the Republic, to the point of kind of glorifying all things military. The Republic may have honored its warriors but it was ultimately set against using warfare, and especially mercenaries, as a tool.
Seems to me taking care of a set of worlds as their protectors would be very fitting for Republic remnants.
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The Republic may have honored its warriors but it was ultimately set against using warfare, and especially mercenaries, as a tool.
The Republic is governed by knights and paladins who elected the Exarch. Even in the Republic the army wasn't subordinate to any sort of civilian authority. While the government may not have wanted to use Mercs, the rational was more of maintaining a monopoly on the use of violence than an ideological aversion to war. Any escaped RAF units wouldn't have an ideological issues with going Merc, because their use of violence is legitimate as long as they are still a bastion of Republican values.
Though practically, I think most commands would go the route of. Mechs provide more status and protection than cash would as a refugee. They also offer the opportunity to become part of the landed gentry and some sort of future stability for their dependents.
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The Northwind Highlanders most likely will break ties to there Republic era mission quickly. Tara Campbell is gone now and there gonna want to go there own way as quickly as possible. Any former RoTS troops that filter in will most likely find themselves offered the choice of join up as mercs or moving on. And possibly without there gear. Also do note that they have abandonded the paint scheme the Republic had them using and returned to the older Olive Drab one.
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The Northwind Highlanders most likely will break ties to there Republic era mission quickly. Tara Campbell is gone now and there gonna want to go there own way as quickly as possible. Any former RoTS troops that filter in will most likely find themselves offered the choice of join up as mercs or moving on. And possibly without there gear. Also do note that they have abandonded the paint scheme the Republic had them using and returned to the older Olive Drab one.
Not seeing it.
Most of the NWH have been Republic their entire lives and NWH just absorbed XII Hastati. The NWH on Terra were willing to go on a suicide mission to kill Alaric for the Republic. They’re about as hardcore RAF as it gets.
This is also why the suggestion you see here and there that the Terran falcons recruit from NWH always feels goofy.
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I hate that Alaric took Tara as a bondswoman. She should absolutely be leading Northwind in this new era. One of many, many missteps in HotW, IMHO.
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I hate that Alaric took Tara as a bondswoman. She should absolutely be leading Northwind in this new era. One of many, many missteps in HotW, IMHO.
I am just waiting for her first visit as a Jade Falcon to get the following response: "Oh look it's that traitor who has become one of those Clan war criminals. Let's hang her from the Castle's walls!"
Doesn't give you the best look when you fought with all your might against Clans, Capellans, Kuritans only to then decide to switch sides (yes the current Falcons are not Malvina's mongols but those details don't matter for those that have heard / suffered from said mongols)
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I am just waiting for her first visit as a Jade Falcon to get the following response: "Oh look it's that traitor who has become one of those Clan war criminals. Let's hang her from the Castle's walls!"
Doesn't give you the best look when you fought with all your might against Clans, Capellans, Kuritans only to then decide to switch sides (yes the current Falcons are not Malvina's mongols but those details don't matter for those that have heard / suffered from said mongols)
unfortunately, while you're citing the rule of Natural consequences, the plot doesn't follow it, and at least, thanks to certain editorial decisions, characters will NOT act like people when it boils down to the elements here.
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Tara as a loose cannon has been a running theme since her handling of Ezekiel Crow on Terra. No one knows what she will do at a given moment, but it will be irrational and described as driven by emotion.
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This has gone off the rails big time. Maybe a new thread to discuss it?
Eh, I tried to get it back on track recently but that lasted for all of two posts. As the thread writer I don't really care too much if we discuss post-Republic politics as a result of its fall.
I would like to however get a list of all known Republic Survivors and what planet(s) they last appeared on.
So far we have.
Seychelle's Stonehearts (Battalion of mercs, Knights and RAF survivors)
That Cheetah merc unit that got Devlin's Atlas II
Arianna Zou and her cadre that joined the FWL after taking over Callison.
Surviving RAF commands on Talitha in the FWL (Mentioned last in IlClan)
Surviving RAF commands on Marlette in the FS (Mentioned last in IlClan)
Honorable mentions
The Dawn Guard (Basically FS troopers now)
The Battalion that raided a Wolf world in EA (Lost a company during the raid).
Jonah Levin (MIA)
Kristoff Erbe (MIA)
Any others I missed?
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Eh, I tried to get it back on track recently but that lasted for all of two posts. As the thread writer I don't really care too much if we discuss post-Republic politics as a result of its fall.
I would like to however get a list of all known Republic Survivors and what planet(s) they last appeared on.
So far we have.
Seychelle's Stonehearts (Battalion of mercs, Knights and RAF survivors)
That Cheetah merc unit that got Devlin's Atlas II
Arianna Zou and her cadre that joined the FWL after taking over Callison.
Surviving RAF commands on Talitha in the FWL (Mentioned last in IlClan)
Surviving RAF commands on Marlette in the FS (Mentioned last in IlClan)
Honorable mentions
The Dawn Guard (Basically FS troopers now)
The Battalion that raided a Wolf world in EA (Lost a company during the raid).
Jonah Levin (MIA)
Kristoff Erbe (MIA)
Any others I missed?
Unaccounted for:
XVI Hastati Sentinels - Zollikofen
XI Principes Guards - Fomalhaut
XII Principes Guards - Epsilon Indi
XIII Principes Guards - Epsilon Eridani
XIV Principes Guards - Elgen
XV Principes Guards - Denebola
X Triarii Protectors - New Earth
XI Triarii Protectors - Procyon
XII Triarii Protectors - Keid
XIII Triarii Protectors - Sirius
2nd Fides
3rd Fides
6th Fides
There’s potentially a LOT of RAF out there.
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Tara as a loose cannon has been a running theme since her handling of Ezekiel Crow on Terra. No one knows what she will do at a given moment, but it will be irrational and described as driven by emotion.
I was specifically replying to :
I am just waiting for her first visit as a Jade Falcon to get the following response: "Oh look it's that traitor who has become one of those Clan war criminals. Let's hang her from the Castle's walls!"
Doesn't give you the best look when you fought with all your might against Clans, Capellans, Kuritans only to then decide to switch sides (yes the current Falcons are not Malvina's mongols but those details don't matter for those that have heard / suffered from said mongols)
which wasn't referring to Tara's reactions so much as the natural reactions of everyone back on Northwind to what she's done-and-become. That natural reaction is exceedingly unilikely to occur, not because it would be forced, but because it would NOT be forced...or in line with the direction the plot is being pushed.
a bit like how BLP took Belters and made them so 'inspired' they abandoned what would be common sense in the environment they live in and contra-survival within that environment by buying off on Stone's 'Defense' plan-that-never-worked (and has been tried multiple times while not working), just so BLP could get rid of them for TPTB. The natural response when looking at a defense that failed twice before with MORE resources is to say 'Aw Hell no", not volunteer to be used as disposable chaff in said failed defensive plan that was clearly intended to fail and leave you dead, and denies the simple mechanics you had to master just to make it to adulthood.
Same thing here: the Northwind Highlanders have an ingrained "Homeworld Patriotism" that would find one of their leaders betraying that to join another Clan anathema in a way simple merc work is not. That said other power is an invader who didn't negotiate with the Northwinder Clans (real clans, not Kerensky's Clans) first? that's a "your mother helps us arrange your murder" level of offense.
which will not be explored in TPTB's rush to make sure Alaric has it easy, they can consolidate factoins, and there's a gap in the fictional merc marketplace for the bulk of the RAF who don't rally to Alaric's banner.
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My guess is that Tara switching sides will be why Northwind doesn't get annexed by the ilClan, CapCon or the Suns. It will be a glorious pimple on the asses of at least a couple of major factions.
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Back to more Dark Age Republic things.
Is there a list anywhere of all the know breakouts of violence inside the Republic starting with Gray Monday? Something that sort of charts the disintegration of the Republic from within and from worlds grabbed by the Houses and Clans?
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The best source for that would be Era Report: Dark Age.
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Here is something to think about. During the defence of Terra does anyone think the Republic dug out the prototypes and the museum pieces? Rifleman III rebuilt to be usable again? Took the Orcas out of mothballs? Old Celestials from museums to be used once again to fight the Clans?
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Sounds like a great Shrapnel story!!!
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Sounds like a great Shrapnel story!!!
Honestly I think it would be a good scenario. Maybe the Republics Proving Grounds with test pilots taking out the mechs to face the Clans that are trying to siege it or Stone had a pair of Orcas stationed above his bunker to protect it.
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Here is something to think about. During the defence of Terra does anyone think the Republic dug out the prototypes and the museum pieces? Rifleman III rebuilt to be usable again? Took the Orcas out of mothballs? Old Celestials from museums to be used once again to fight the Clans?
I suspect that at least some prototypes from the XTRO books ended up on the Battlefield.
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Here is something to think about. During the defence of Terra does anyone think the Republic dug out the prototypes and the museum pieces? Rifleman III rebuilt to be usable again? Took the Orcas out of mothballs? Old Celestials from museums to be used once again to fight the Clans?
Yes. Amongst the other myriad of RotS designs, tech, characters, strategy, and doctrine that wasn’t shown in HotW.
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Back to more Dark Age Republic things.
Is there a list anywhere of all the know breakouts of violence inside the Republic starting with Gray Monday? Something that sort of charts the disintegration of the Republic from within and from worlds grabbed by the Houses and Clans?
You might also want to take a look at this;
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=70451.0
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Here is something to think about. During the defence of Terra does anyone think the Republic dug out the prototypes and the museum pieces? Rifleman III rebuilt to be usable again? Took the Orcas out of mothballs? Old Celestials from museums to be used once again to fight the Clans?
Well officially al salvaged Celestials were melted down to show that the Word of Blake was defeated. But the plans for them were put into storage and Buhl's Blessed Order used them as basis for the Kheper And Uraeus Battlemechs. To be honest I kind of expected the Republic to bring those things back. After all if you have the plans it's better to use them then start from scratch. The same goes for the modified Rattlers and Wyrms which could have provided some decent SDS capabilities. Or even go full out drone defenses which should have been a more effective use of resources when you allegedly don't have the manpower.
Also when it comes to missing Repbulic units or persons: what about the Ghost Paladin Emil? did he survive / surrender? That was one of the most fascinating ones, basically hiding in plain sight. And then there is Paladin Ergen who became a rising star during Shattered Fortress. Did he survive?
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Well officially al salvaged Celestials were melted down to show that the Word of Blake was defeated. But the plans for them were put into storage and Buhl's Blessed Order used them as basis for the Kheper And Uraeus Battlemechs. To be honest I kind of expected the Republic to bring those things back. After all if you have the plans it's better to use them then start from scratch. The same goes for the modified Rattlers and Wyrms which could have provided some decent SDS capabilities. Or even go full out drone defenses which should have been a more effective use of resources when you allegedly don't have the manpower.
Also when it comes to missing Repbulic units or persons: what about the Ghost Paladin Emil? did he survive / surrender? That was one of the most fascinating ones, basically hiding in plain sight. And then there is Paladin Ergen who became a rising star during Shattered Fortress. Did he survive?
Manpower realistically never should have been the Republic's issue. Terra alone has billions of inhabitants and so do many of the other core worlds of the Republic.
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Without the MD cybernetic enhancements, the Celestials weren't terribly impressive mechs so there wouldn't have been much reason for the Republic to bring them back vs just increasing production of machines they were already making.
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Without the MD cybernetic enhancements, the Celestials weren't terribly impressive mechs so there wouldn't have been much reason for the Republic to bring them back vs just increasing production of machines they were already making.
I don't know. They were things that could have been easily reproduced (known technology) and with the Clan tech the Republic had at it's disposal it should have been "easy" to upgrade them. Plus if used for their distraction raids it would have sowed even more confusion and perhaps even panic. But on the other hand the limitations (small cockpit) might have made them unpopular to pilot (not to talk about the stigma itself)
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I don't know. They were things that could have been easily reproduced (known technology) and with the Clan tech the Republic had at it's disposal it should have been "easy" to upgrade them. Plus if used for their distraction raids it would have sowed even more confusion and perhaps even panic. But on the other hand the limitations (small cockpit) might have made them unpopular to pilot (not to talk about the stigma itself)
I mean, all the mechs that the Republic was already building were also known technology, and many of them already had Clantech equipment.
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As much as I love the idea of the celestials, they weren’t really game changers when they were first made, much less in 3150. Save for C3i.
Per the novels, Stone’s issue was people, not hardware. Silly or not, that was the problem. Which is a pretty consistent theme now in ilClan. So really, it means that any scenario you run near the end of RotS’s lifetime should be them with good to excellent equipment. Which means a wild mix of Omnis, advanced electronics, clanSpec, RISC, etc.
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As much as I love the idea of the celestials, they weren’t really game changers when they were first made, much less in 3150. Save for C3i.
Per the novels, Stone’s issue was people, not hardware. Silly or not, that was the problem. Which is a pretty consistent theme now in ilClan. So really, it means that any scenario you run near the end of RotS’s lifetime should be them with good to excellent equipment. Which means a wild mix of Omnis, advanced electronics, clanSpec, RISC, etc.
Which would indicate that the problem is less not having enough manpower but more having enough willing manpower.
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Which would indicate that the problem is less not having enough manpower but more having enough willing manpower.
This was Stone asking the Republic for more warriors. A bunch of citizens signed up because it was him. That supply eventually dried up and this is Stone. There’s nobody else who would get a more violently patriotic response in that region. If there wasn’t will to join for him, there isn’t will to join for anyone else.
Remember, this is Battletech where number of soldiers per capita is like… 1/400 of real world numbers.
Also, the number of troops Terra had was roughly proportional per capita to what you’d expect. The RotS had a huge number of troops on Terra. They just weren’t allowed to accomplish anything because plot.
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This was Stone asking the Republic for more warriors. A bunch of citizens signed up because it was him. That supply eventually dried up and this is Stone. There’s nobody else who would get a more violently patriotic response in that region. If there wasn’t will to join for him, there isn’t will to join for anyone else.
Remember, this is Battletech where number of soldiers per capita is like… 1/400 of real world numbers.
Also, the number of troops Terra had was roughly proportional per capita to what you’d expect. The RotS had a huge number of troops on Terra. They just weren’t allowed to accomplish anything because plot.
Still implies the masses did not have faith in Stone or the Republic. Stone had a lot of time between when he came back and the Fortress came down. Almost a whole decade.
It was only when the Falcons tried doing their thing in Japan that the population actually rose up and showed what it can do, citizen or warrior.
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Still implies the masses did not have faith in Stone or the Republic. Stone had a lot of time between when he came back and the Fortress came down. Almost a whole decade.
It was only when the Falcons tried doing their thing in Japan that the population actually rose up and showed what it can do, citizen or warrior.
Implies no such thing. Stone’s return resulted in many more recruits as he started to turn Republic fortunes around.
Second, the number of troops on Terra were proportional to most other worlds. That implies Stone didn’t have recruiting trouble to get a reasonable sized army. He had trouble recruiting a disproportionately large army (by setting standards).
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Yes. Amongst the other myriad of RotS designs, tech, characters, strategy, and doctrine that wasn’t shown in HotW.
Considering there is a giant boneyard for mechs in the American SW- either New Mexico or Arizona- established in . . . Ghost War? I think it appears again in Victor's end arc.
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Which would indicate that the problem is less not having enough manpower but more having enough willing manpower.
More likely SKILLED manpower-Stone's disarmament removed a LOT of the institutional knowledge from the training base, and the Republic's brief flrtations with civil war were not adequate preparation for facing large-scale invasions...and armies train for the LAST war they fought in time for the training to be used in the NEXT war.
When you toss in the salad of first Levin reforming the RAF, and then Stone changing those reforms in rapid succession, I could see the Republic having VERY uneven soldiers even WITHIN established units (never mind the recently raised units).
While the product's shifted from medical restrictions (one in a thousand having the neuro-conductivity to make the little 'mech model dance at the recruiter's), There's still just the incredible task of getting anything large scale organized and trained, a task compounded by the economic and infrastructural hammering known as Gray Monday and its aftermath.
Remember SCott's Rule: the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop it up. Estimate over a trillion people in the Republic, and a government that very recently was launching a coup against itself in the middle of a national crisis, with long distance commo down, and compound it with the logistical complexities of maintaining Fortress.
They might have whole industrial parks worth of warehouses full of the most fearsome 'mechs in production, but lacked sufficient trained manpower (military management, aka Logistics specialists and trainers) to find and organize sufficient trained manpower to actually make use of them.
Stone or Levin might've even been working on solving this, but things just didn't work out timeframe wise.
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Implies no such thing. Stone’s return resulted in many more recruits as he started to turn Republic fortunes around.
Second, the number of troops on Terra were proportional to most other worlds. That implies Stone didn’t have recruiting trouble to get a reasonable sized army. He had trouble recruiting a disproportionately large army (by setting standards).
Joe boot is inspired right out of high school-the Savior has Returned!! so he hurries down to the Republic recruiters...
okay, recruiting stations require adequately trained manpower-there's a reason you don't meet a boot private at the recruiting office there to sigh you up for the Army/Navy/Airforce/Marines/Coast Guard or Space Force.
Most of those guys are mid-to senior NCO's, but they've got to have Corporals below them (or specialists) and Officers above them-to move the paperwork, do the physicals, do the Background Checks, run the ASVAB tests and the cute little mini-asvab, along with your more ordinary typing , take out the garbage, vacuum the floor after hours and so on.
So let's say Joe Boot passed the initial exams to become a 'mechwarrior candidate.
Now, he's got to get from testing, through inprocessing-which involves MORE skilled professionals (doctors, test administratrors, manpower specialists of very various and sundry types), and from there, he's got to actually go to Fort Training Ground to spend anywhere from nine to fifteen weeks learning to soldier...before he goes to MOS training at either Fort Trainingground, or Fort 'MechWarriorschool.
How long does it take to learn how to run a battlemech without causing accidents, chaos, and random damage because he gets an itch in his shorts while he's in the driver's seat?
Guess what that also requires? Trained Professionals, lots of them. Most of them are people who either saw combat a long time ago, or aren't going to ever see combat-because they're giving their all to class after class of Joe Boots.
In the real world, Operator training is shorter than Maintainer training anywhere outside of Aviation, and even there, an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) takes longer than a Pilot's license by about a year.
So for every Joe Boot 'Mechwarrior, there's gotta be a Sally Screwdriver, Danny Driller, Mike Maintainer, Al the Administrator and Debbie Doc (the medic), just to support ONE 'mech.
We're the Republic, we've got Warehouses full of 'em-what we don't have, are the ten to fifty people positioned to get one, bright Green, fresh-shaved shavetail 'mechwarrior into the battle line, because our logistics structure's been ****** over by Gray Monday, a decade of civil wars, internal political strife, economic hard times, loss of critical communications infrastructure, and so on.
I'm trying to expand and clarify your point here, Church-not arguing with you, but armies are more than the guy with a rifle (or tank, or jet, or thirty foot tall walking armored terror).
There's a whole ecology of infrastructures that let you mobilize ground (*or space, or sea, or air) troops, most of it, is probably not in great shape despite having trillions of potential personnnel, it takes time to sort and organize, even when you have a surge in recruiting, getting that shit sorted is the kind of thing that makes some officers (and more than a few dozen MOS groups) their entire career.
At the same time that the United States was sending megatons of tanks, airplanes, boats and rifles to Britain, american GI's at home were trainng with obsolete rifles or plywood mockups, because the administrative infrastructure to get that shit distributed wasn't there. It wasn't until, iirc, 1942 or 1943 that every boot private in boot camp had a real, honest to god rifle, never mind having a real honest-to-god M1 Garand, to train with, and a lot of men got their draft notices, got to the recruiting station, then got to wait weeks or months for a spot to open up because the Army didn't have enough trained personnel on-hand to both fight the war, AND train the new guys until sometime after the end of 1941 or early 1942. The remobilization for Korea leaned heavily on recent discharges, and there were STILL hangups due to lack of admin infrastructure, logistics problems (moving those supplies where they're needed and necessary) and so on.
now imagine this problem scaled up a thousand times over. (the U.S. population at the beginning of WW2 was only eighty million people. There are STATES now with more people. Imagine what 80 billion people would be like)
So, here comes Alaric the magical steiner-davion Klanner with his experienced, battle-hardened army that does NOT have those problems because they're written by Blaine Pardoe.
Large Armies suffer when command functions are excessively centralized and officers are either unable to, or forbidden from, using their own initiative, they also suffer extensively if your officer class has a lot of internal fractures caused by, say...a recent political coup and restructuring that eliminated your legislature and communication differences between the old leader who's just resumed control and the last guy, who was kind of...meh.
critical information doesn't get passed, units don't coordinate properly, your inspired greenies are just meat for the fodder because there's a real shortage of skilled leaders proportional to the number of men and women who need to be led.
it's a 'perfect storm' of the kind that historically we saw with the aftermath of Stalin's purges-in 1942.
but the Republic doesn't have space to trade for time to get their shit straight, there's no Urals to hide the industries behind, no time for a Zhukov to rise and tell the Great Leader to go ****** himself and wage the war they CAN wage.
Instead, it's a piecemeal defeat in detail....but!!
But. Now that Stone and most of that divided high command are past-tense, and the Wolves have taken Terra, (o sadness), they didn't manage to conquer the REST.
Just old Earth and some of the Sol system. NOW theres' room for a leader to rise, for the surviving units to get their shit together, for the REST of the Republic to demonstrate it's not just one planet.
who wouldn't want to see THAT story play out? It's got everything-lots of interstellar war, lots of room for POV character heroes to rise, lots of options and chances for someone to champion the ideals of the Republic that weren't just "We like Devlin Stone".
I don't think we're gonna GET that, but it might be fun to speculate, ayeh?
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Stone had a lot of time between when he came back and the Fortress came down. Almost a whole decade.
Exarch Levin had almost 10 years inside Fortress before Stone was thawed in 3145. Stone launched Shofar and Eruptio in 3149, so in reality Stone had 2-2.5 years to do his thing. That's not a lot of time to reorganize all of the Fortress. Heck, MechWarrior training at your average academy is what, 3-4 years to churn out a green trooper? Stone's first class of post-thaw MechWarriors would graduate in 3150, just in time to die on Terra before Stone himself bites the dust.
Stone could have waited behind the Wall, say another two years, before launching Shofar or Eruptio, but that's probably the very edge of a reasonable pause given how long the Wall was suspected to last. At most that buys him one more graduating class of green MechWarriors, when what Stone really needed was 10 more graduating MechWarrior classes and at least 10 more of Aerospace Fighter pilots.
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So now we are talking Mech and fighter pilot training. Couldn't they simply conscript all able bodied men and women to form infantry battalions to man defensive positions (yeah I know but hear me out) The RAF didn't use the Castle Brians because well nobody really rebuild them and they were thought useless (Japan proofed otherwise) But they employed a similar concept with their redoubts. Now if those had been build up more and then staffed with more infantry or even tank crews (a lance of Alacorns can do A LOT of damage) that would have been a way. Or they could have drawn the attacker into the metropoli of Terra to conduct extreme guerilla warfare. And again that was what Japan showed: swamp the Claner within confined spaces and they crumble (of course with the RAF navy doing their last kamikaze robbing the Falcons of their orbital strike capabilities was probably the saving grace). Though this tactic isn't exactly what the RAF is trained for considering how the RAF didn't engage the Capellans in cities during the Capellan Crusades. And again when we come to the manpower issue: why not use more drones? If need be use the Celerity as the expensive suicide bomber by letting them ruin straight into enemy formations and then blow them up
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Exarch Levin had almost 10 years inside Fortress before Stone was thawed in 3145. Stone launched Shofar and Eruptio in 3149, so in reality Stone had 2-2.5 years to do his thing. That's not a lot of time to reorganize all of the Fortress. Heck, MechWarrior training at your average academy is what, 3-4 years to churn out a green trooper? Stone's first class of post-thaw MechWarriors would graduate in 3150, just in time to die on Terra before Stone himself bites the dust.
Stone could have waited behind the Wall, say another two years, before launching Shofar or Eruptio, but that's probably the very edge of a reasonable pause given how long the Wall was suspected to last. At most that buys him one more graduating class of green MechWarriors, when what Stone really needed was 10 more graduating MechWarrior classes and at least 10 more of Aerospace Fighter pilots.
Less than 2 years for a Mechwarrior from start to finish from all available data to get them to Green. Some material suggests 1.5 years.
I've been trying to go over ilClan to get a count of how many forces there were on Terra at the time and frankly even with the re-organization there should be a lot more. At the very least of Infantry, Armor, and Artillery.
So now we are talking Mech and fighter pilot training. Couldn't they simply conscript all able bodied men and women to form infantry battalions to man defensive positions (yeah I know but hear me out) The RAF didn't use the Castle Brians because well nobody really rebuild them and they were thought useless (Japan proofed otherwise) But they employed a similar concept with their redoubts. Now if those had been build up more and then staffed with more infantry or even tank crews (a lance of Alacorns can do A LOT of damage) that would have been a way. Or they could have drawn the attacker into the metropoli of Terra to conduct extreme guerilla warfare. And again that was what Japan showed: swamp the Claner within confined spaces and they crumble (of course with the RAF navy doing their last kamikaze robbing the Falcons of their orbital strike capabilities was probably the saving grace). Though this tactic isn't exactly what the RAF is trained for considering how the RAF didn't engage the Capellans in cities during the Capellan Crusades. And again when we come to the manpower issue: why not use more drones? If need be use the Celerity as the expensive suicide bomber by letting them ruin straight into enemy ft likely to be the most thoroughly and completely mapped negating their usefulnessormations and then blow them up
Honestly yeah a lot of that is baffling. I do understand that when it comes down to it the Castle Brians are very known quantities. So it would make a lot more sense if the reasoning for not using them is frankly of all the worlds to have Castle Brians, Terra's are the most thoroughly mapped thus negating most of their usefulness.
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You don't need to have every recruit be a Mechwarrior or Aerospace pilot. Trained Armor crews and massed produced Armor can be very effective on the defense. And if nothing else you can produce a lot of tanks and artillery on the cheap.
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You don't need to have every recruit be a Mechwarrior or Aerospace pilot. Trained Armor crews and massed produced Armor can be very effective on the defense. And if nothing else you can produce a lot of tanks and artillery on the cheap.
So now we are talking Mech and fighter pilot training. Couldn't they simply conscript all able bodied men and women to form infantry battalions to man defensive positions (yeah I know but hear me out) The RAF didn't use the Castle Brians because well nobody really rebuild them and they were thought useless (Japan proofed otherwise) But they employed a similar concept with their redoubts. Now if those had been build up more and then staffed with more infantry or even tank crews (a lance of Alacorns can do A LOT of damage) that would have been a way. Or they could have drawn the attacker into the metropoli of Terra to conduct extreme guerilla warfare. And again that was what Japan showed: swamp the Claner within confined spaces and they crumble (of course with the RAF navy doing their last kamikaze robbing the Falcons of their orbital strike capabilities was probably the saving grace). Though this tactic isn't exactly what the RAF is trained for considering how the RAF didn't engage the Capellans in cities during the Capellan Crusades. And again when we come to the manpower issue: why not use more drones? If need be use the Celerity as the expensive suicide bomber by letting them ruin straight into enemy formations and then blow them up
If you don't care about quality, you can draft mass numbers of bodies to make human wave attacks. If you don't care about keeping what's left of your infrastructure going, if you don't care about the existence of your nation beyond a few short years.
if you're okay with a titanic violent crime problem in the aftermath. A truly titanic bill for mental illness treatment, etc. you can do this.
crime rates after the First World War spiked, as they did after world war two, with millions of traumatized vets turned loose onto the civilian population with infantry training and not much else. likewise with vietnam, do you see the pattern?
The billions on Terra alone could probably beat the Wolf Touman with rocks and bottles-if properly motivated.
They just have to have no vested interest in what comes AFTER the battle.
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I think we've stumbled back to Battletech's core issue of planetary populations vs military sizes.
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Stone didn't think he needed a bigger military. When Alaric arrived Stone assumed it would be series of Trials, something very much quality over quantity, not Alaric would bring his entire Clan. Then when Malvina showed up, he again assumed Alaric would join forced with the RAF to push the Falcons off Terra. Then it turned out that the Falcons just kept coming, as it was Malvina bringing her entire Clan too.
My reading of HotW and ilClan, is that an old an broken Stone, who knew the Clans, was probably expecting to face no more than 1/4 or 1/3 of what eventually landed on Terra. More would come in the future, but with there would be a rest and rebuilding window between each Clan.
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Stone didn't think he needed a bigger military. When Alaric arrived Stone assumed it would be series of Trials, something very much quality over quantity, not Alaric would bring his entire Clan. Then when Malvina showed up, he again assumed Alaric would join forced with the RAF to push the Falcons off Terra. Then it turned out that the Falcons just kept coming, as it was Malvina bringing her entire Clan too.
My reading of HotW and ilClan, is that an old an broken Stone, who knew the Clans, was probably expecting to face no more than 1/4 or 1/3 of what eventually landed on Terra. More would come in the future, but with there would be a rest and rebuilding window between each Clan.
Stone expected a hell of an attack force. What he built would have bodied the entirety of clan wolf, in spite of HotW’s insane claim that wolf by itself could beat Terra.
I've been trying to go over ilClan to get a count of how many forces there were on Terra at the time and frankly even with the re-organization there should be a lot more. At the very least of Infantry, Armor, and Artillery.
Numbers depend on where the unaccounted for units were. On or off Terra.
31 to 38 regiments mechs
40 to 64 regiments tanks
400-500 squads of battle armor
55 to 85 regiments infantry
500-700 ASF
Japan
And any other local unnamed militia, partisan resistance, etc.
And the fixed defenses
And the ability of the redoubts to allow a nearly countless number of quick hit and fade ambushes.
And superior supply lines
And whatever insane fixed defenses like artillery, AA, etc. the redoubts had.
These are all on average trained as well as clan wolf frontline and far better than Falcon forces. They are also equipped with the best tech the RotS has. So HotW’s writing where a cluster can wipe out a combine arms unit with a battalion of mechs and regiments of tanks is absolutely a crock.
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Stone expected a hell of an attack force. What he built would have bodied the entirety of clan wolf, in spite of HotW’s insane claim that wolf by itself could beat Terra.
Numbers depend on where the unaccounted for units were. On or off Terra.
31 to 38 regiments mechs
40 to 64 regiments tanks
400-500 squads of battle armor
55 to 85 regiments infantry
500-700 ASF
Japan
And any other local unnamed militia, partisan resistance, etc.
And the fixed defenses
And the ability of the redoubts to allow a nearly countless number of quick hit and fade ambushes.
And superior supply lines
And whatever insane fixed defenses like artillery, AA, etc. the redoubts had.
These are all on average trained as well as clan wolf frontline and far better than Falcon forces. They are also equipped with the best tech the RotS has. So HotW’s writing where a cluster can wipe out a combine arms unit with a battalion of mechs and regiments of tanks is absolutely a crock.
I agree with you in principle, however, we're saddled with that outcome, and if you want the setting to be coherent, then something in your position has to be incorrect.
Because the outcome is the outcome and they're not going to change it, no matter how obviously hacked and arbitrary that outcome happens to be.
So...how do you explain the Outcome from an in-universe perspective in order to be able to move forward from the shit starting point you're given??
My point has been, and continues to be, that something critical went wrong internally with the Republic to cause the outcome we're stuck with from HoTW.
There has to be some critical failure or collection of critical failures, that made the outcomes from that book happen-because we, as fans, can't change it or get it rewritten, so something absolutely failed on an organizational level, to get that outcome.
Now, I've given MY ideas, and you don't like 'em. so...what happened to the Republic's military that one cluster could stomp whole nato-scale divisions?
as you said (repeatedly, even though I agree with you) their tech was comparable, the training standards were comparable if not superior, the Republic's troops were fighting on home ground with intimate knowledge of the terrain and ample time to prepare it.
so...What Went Wrong?
Not "Blaine Lee Pardoe got the writing Job" because that doesn't square the outcome, it simply expresses an externality.
I refuse to believe Malvina's Morons or Wolf Magical superiority are even adequate excuses, much less explanations, and certainly "Klan Superiority" is not an explanation.
because they aren't that ****** good.
something went absolutely wrong on a large scale. so what was it??
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Less than 2 years for a Mechwarrior from start to finish from all available data to get them to Green. Some material suggests 1.5 years.
Source?
So now we are talking Mech and fighter pilot training. Couldn't they simply conscript all able bodied men and women to form infantry battalions to man defensive positions (yeah I know but hear me out) The RAF didn't use the Castle Brians because well nobody really rebuild them and they were thought useless (Japan proofed otherwise) But they employed a similar concept with their redoubts. Now if those had been build up more and then staffed with more infantry or even tank crews (a lance of Alacorns can do A LOT of damage) that would have been a way. Or they could have drawn the attacker into the metropoli of Terra to conduct extreme guerilla warfare. And again that was what Japan showed: swamp the Claner within confined spaces and they crumble (of course with the RAF navy doing their last kamikaze robbing the Falcons of their orbital strike capabilities was probably the saving grace). Though this tactic isn't exactly what the RAF is trained for considering how the RAF didn't engage the Capellans in cities during the Capellan Crusades. And again when we come to the manpower issue: why not use more drones? If need be use the Celerity as the expensive suicide bomber by letting them ruin straight into enemy formations and then blow them up
Makes sense, but the game is called BattleTech and BattleMechs will always take center stage. It's one of the many reasons we don't have mass warship fleets plying the space lanes.
Maybe without access to planets like Lambrecht the specialized alloys necessary to repair the Castles weren't readily available in mass quantity, or the time to finish repairs was too long compared to building the less effective Redoubts.
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"what went wrong"?
My assumption: Stone wanted to defeat the Wolves without inflicting much damage so he could absorb the majority of the Wolves. My reasoning? When Harvell confronted Stone about the fast crumbling of Prefecture X and all the wasted lifes Stone reminded him those were now Wolf worlds. To me this sounds as if he was thinking "Ok we beat and absorb the Wolves and once we do that all their worlds belong to us again" In this case you don't go total war against your opponent but try to beat him because you need their warriors later on. Can't exactly wage a war when your opponent and yourself have been grinded to dust (something the Wolves are currently finding out). The problem is though this kind of thinking isn't exactly ingrained in the RAF so if they try to simply subdue an opponent who does not the same it will go badly. it would have been more efficient to adopt a total war doctrine for the defense of Terra. Like Rommel stated for the defense of Normandy "we will destroy them and their equipment when they land or in the sea we will not let them land on the soil" Of course we got that partially with the fixed defenses in space. this should have been better used with drone fighters which can be turned into suicide bombers while keeping your real forces in reserve. Let the attacker run through a harrowing gauntlet without sacrificing your valuable manpower.
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"what went wrong"?
My assumption: Stone wanted to defeat the Wolves without inflicting much damage so he could absorb the majority of the Wolves. My reasoning? When Harvell confronted Stone about the fast crumbling of Prefecture X and all the wasted lifes Stone reminded him those were now Wolf worlds. To me this sounds as if he was thinking "Ok we beat and absorb the Wolves and once we do that all their worlds belong to us again" In this case you don't go total war against your opponent but try to beat him because you need their warriors later on. Can't exactly wage a war when your opponent and yourself have been grinded to dust (something the Wolves are currently finding out). The problem is though this kind of thinking isn't exactly ingrained in the RAF so if they try to simply subdue an opponent who does not the same it will go badly. it would have been more efficient to adopt a total war doctrine for the defense of Terra. Like Rommel stated for the defense of Normandy "we will destroy them and their equipment when they land or in the sea we will not let them land on the soil" Of course we got that partially with the fixed defenses in space. this should have been better used with drone fighters which can be turned into suicide bombers while keeping your real forces in reserve. Let the attacker run through a harrowing gauntlet without sacrificing your valuable manpower.
The problem with fixed defenses in space? is that they don't work.
They don't even work on tabletop with balanced BV and artificial fairness.
really, going through the various invasions of Terra? they've never worked.
Alaric did exactly what Stone did and what Kerensky did-only both stone, and Kerensky, were facing yet-even-more extensive defenses funded more lavishly, with more assets proportional to the attacking force, than Stone tried to deploy against Alaric's invasion.
When your 'strategy' is the same one the prior two landlords tried-and-failed at (and they both had more stuff), it stops being a strategy and starts being reckless optimism and a massive wishful thinking disease.
But we're supposed to be focused on the ground war, and maybe there's SOME merit-the problem is, soldiers are soldiers, and standing orders can be crippling...in a meeting engagement, but once the meeting engagement is over with, if you're still following orders that are getting you defeated, you're either not a very good officer, or your army is so top-down that it can't react and can't function as an army in the field.
Both of which, could be an explanation-could EASILY explain those outcomes, but both have the defect of looking to certain observers like you're basically bagging on the Republic because you hate Devlin Stone.
so...is there another explanation for the ground war? (because at LEAST they gave the Republic a bad enough strategy in space to explain their loss without making the spacers themselves...okay, at least space is so minor nobody gives a rip.)
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something went absolutely wrong on a large scale. so what was it??
Late-season GoT happened. "It made sense, because we wanted it to happen." And this is what you get when you take that approach.
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Source?
The Lyran FM has their academies maxing out at four years but that includes basic training and additional training like Special Forces and Officer Candidate School.
The RPGs have been pretty consistent in that sort of interpretation as well with 1.5-2 years being all it takes to get a Mechwarrior from untrained to Green.
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In the Free Worlds League, you can be made a... hero... in no time. In just 2 years, grizzled veterans will teach you all that you need to know to be an effective mechwarrior who just may in fact survive.
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The RPGs have been pretty consistent in that sort of interpretation as well with 1.5-2 years being all it takes to get a Mechwarrior from untrained to Green.
Ok, I see where you've come up with that count.
I'm not sure I agree that eliminating all other training except for BattleMech usage is such a hot idea, but the Republic could have done it. I still think 3 year is a more reasonable length of time seeing how there's more to training besides BattleMech piloting and gunnery, but that's just a personal call.
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Ok, I see where you've come up with that count.
I'm not sure I agree that eliminating all other training except for BattleMech usage is such a hot idea, but the Republic could have done it. I still think 3 year is a more reasonable length of time seeing how there's more to training besides BattleMech piloting and gunnery, but that's just a personal call.
Eh . . .
At the beginning of World War II, flight training for U.S. pilots lasted nine months, with three months of primary, three months of basic, and three months of advanced training1. Each pilot had 65 flying hours of primary training and 75 hours of both basic and advanced training1. During the war, each phase was reduced first to 10 weeks and then to nine weeks1. Before WWII, pilots trained for about a year2. In 1940, this was reduced to 7 months2. From 1942 onward, it was increased to one week of preliminary training, then four training periods of 9 weeks each, for a total of about 8 1/2 months2.
I mean they call war-time 2LTs '90-day wonders' for a reason.
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something went absolutely wrong on a large scale. so what was it??
You mean other than the brain damaged geriatric that took control of the state, co-opted all war planning, with no legislative oversight, and leaned heavily on tactics and doctrine that were more than half a century out of date? I get that we are not supposed to run on the assumption that characters are idiots. But in the case of Stone, we have been told multiple times, in multiple sources that the man is brain damaged.
The Lament pilot in HotW was our view into the RAF on planet, and how their will to fight was broken in part by Stone's failed leadership. It's not a hard leap to make that when the Falcons Landed, the Wolves already on planet the Senate gone, Republic reduced to Terra, years of brutal hardship, and Stone tossing the ideals of the republic out by the wayside, that maybe the civilian's and the RAF on planet, though twice about if all of this fighting was actually worth it.
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You mean other than the brain damaged geriatric that took control of the state, co-opted all war planning, with no legislative oversight, and leaned heavily on tactics and doctrine that were more than half a century out of date? I get that we are not supposed to run on the assumption that characters are idiots. But in the case of Stone, we have been told multiple times, in multiple sources that the man is brain damaged.
The Lament pilot in HotW was our view into the RAF on planet, and how their will to fight was broken in part by Stone's failed leadership. It's not a hard leap to make that when the Falcons Landed, the Wolves already on planet the Senate gone, Republic reduced to Terra, years of brutal hardship, and Stone tossing the ideals of the republic out by the wayside, that maybe the civilian's and the RAF on planet, though twice about if all of this fighting was actually worth it.
The brain damage angle was dropped because it reads really, really badly.
But you mean Stone, who spent the last 10 years refocusing the RotS, rebuilding its defenses, trying to rally Allies (who were admittedly past being useful), who designed a massive global defense in depth that we saw work against the falcons as they landed, who’s plan would have actually worked if it had just been the falcons or wolves? You mean that guy?
Also, what brutal hardships and how was stone tossing out ideals?
Also, RAF did not act like their will to fight was broken. They fought with an absurd zeal and well past rational losses.
I agree with you in principle, however, we're saddled with that outcome, and if you want the setting to be coherent, then something in your position has to be incorrect.
Because the outcome is the outcome and they're not going to change it, no matter how obviously hacked and arbitrary that outcome happens to be.
So...how do you explain the Outcome from an in-universe perspective in order to be able to move forward from the shit starting point you're given??
I don’t. In order for it to work we have to pile unbelievable over unlikely over contrivance until we reach impossible. Wolves winning on Terra, in the way they did, with the strength they have simply isn’t a believable outcome. There’s no amount of grease to fit this 2x4 into the pegboard.
There were ways to make it work, but they would require retconning basically the middle of HotW and big chunks of ilClan. To make it work, in a sentence, about the same time Stone saw wolves would “win” and started moving troops at the falcons, Alaric offers hegira to the RAF and they leave with a significant chunk of their strength intact. Stone’s last command to them being to survive and preserve the ideals of the Republic.
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The brain damage angle was dropped because it reads really, really badly.
Where was that stated?
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Where was that stated?
i should say that’s my assumption. It doesn’t appear at all in Rock of the Republic, Hour of the Wolf, or ilClan. I’m trying to remember if it disappeared in Shattered Fortress or not.
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Eh . . .
At the beginning of World War II, flight training for U.S. pilots lasted nine months, with three months of primary, three months of basic, and three months of advanced training1. Each pilot had 65 flying hours of primary training and 75 hours of both basic and advanced training1. During the war, each phase was reduced first to 10 weeks and then to nine weeks1. Before WWII, pilots trained for about a year2. In 1940, this was reduced to 7 months2. From 1942 onward, it was increased to one week of preliminary training, then four training periods of 9 weeks each, for a total of about 8 1/2 months2.
I mean they call war-time 2LTs '90-day wonders' for a reason.
Not a relative apples-to-apples comparison. This is a fictional war machine we're talking about. If the basic length of time to learn how to use a BattleMech is 1.5-2 years and nothing else, you're not cranking out decent soldiers. You're cranking out chain gang-esque level troops. I don't believe for a second the RAF was running that kind of program. At best they'd shave training down to 3 years so recruits could learn how to be soldiers and MechWarriors. Otherwise they're just putting the more experienced MechWarriors and units in danger.
So I stand by the 1.5-2 graduating classes from 3145 to 3151. It's not a lot of new and reasonably useful MechWarriors. Remind me, did FM: 3145 say the Mars academy was already opened or was planning on opening/expanding? I'm trying to remember if Levin had reasonable access to new MechWarrior classes before 3145.
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It is a complex problem best avoided. You really do not want a conversation on neurological issues.
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War Academy of Mars had been back up and running since 3137 according to FM 3145.
Add in Terra had to have training academies as well before then and there seems to be plenty of throughput for training.
Also Academies don't work like that(only two graduating classes from 3145 to 3151). Classes would be staggered as not everything can be taught at once. So rather than letting instructors sit idle they'd do something like start a class in 3137(since that is when the War Academy of Mars re-opens) but once those cadets move onto a different phase of their course work start another class in 3138.
So staggering like that so no class is ever empty they would actually have the graduating classes of 3140, 3141, 3142, 3143, 3144, 3145, 3146, 3147, 3148, 3149, 3150, and possibly 3151.
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War Academy of Mars had been back up and running since 3137 according to FM 3145.
Add in Terra had to have training academies as well before then and there seems to be plenty of throughput for training.
Also Academies don't work like that(only two graduating classes from 3145 to 3151). Classes would be staggered as not everything can be taught at once. So rather than letting instructors sit idle they'd do something like start a class in 3137(since that is when the War Academy of Mars re-opens) but once those cadets move onto a different phase of their course work start another class in 3138.
So staggering like that so no class is ever empty they would actually have the graduating classes of 3140, 3141, 3142, 3143, 3144, 3145, 3146, 3147, 3148, 3149, 3150, and possibly 3151.
if they went quarterly, they could have as many as 4 classes graduating per year. (one winter, one spring, one summer, and one in fall) starting around 3121 if the academy opened in 3117, and did a freshman induction every three months, or three classes/year if you use a four month gap, or two per year if you go to freshman induction every six months.
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if they went quarterly, they could have as many as 4 classes graduating per year. (one winter, one spring, one summer, and one in fall) starting around 3121 if the academy opened in 3117, and did a freshman induction every three months, or three classes/year if you use a four month gap, or two per year if you go to freshman induction every six months.
I'll grant it seems likely that it would take the War College of Mars to take a bit of time to get up to proper throughput but yeah other academies do seem to stagger more than others.
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Ok, I see where you've come up with that count.
I'm not sure I agree that eliminating all other training except for BattleMech usage is such a hot idea, but the Republic could have done it. I still think 3 year is a more reasonable length of time seeing how there's more to training besides BattleMech piloting and gunnery, but that's just a personal call.
3 years is preferable in peace time, but when the enemy is at the gates you probably want your Mechwarriors to graduate a few years before your nation gets annexed.
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3 years is preferable in peace time, but when the enemy is at the gates you probably want your Mechwarriors to graduate a few years before your nation gets annexed.
that DOES tend to help...and still, we have the fundamental problem; the RoTS had the best training establishment in the Inner Sphere, with the best technology of the contributing factions and states, literal years to prepare behind the fortress wall, and got stomped like 3049 militas by a Clan unit.
right down to 3049 levels of failure and numerical mismatch.
something major had to go wrong for this to be credible.
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The brain damage angle was dropped because it reads really, really badly.
It's still in FM3145 pg211. Unless there is a statement from TPTB s sayings it's no longer valid, or they update the PDF, it's canon. And it clearly states that Stone is unable to have an intense conversation with someone for more that 5-7 minuets before he storms away in anger.
The core assumption of Stones defensive plan was that the Clans would never work together so they could be defeated in detail. That assumption was shown to be wrong in CoK between when we saw SeaFox and Wolf collaborating, and again in HotW with the Falcons and Wolves. All the material leading up this point painted Stone as an inflexible leader, who implemented an inflexible plan, based on incorrect assumptions, and could not listen to outside council. What went wrong, or could have gone isn't some big mystery with the information on hand.
If we are going to ignore what was written, then there really isn't much on the table to discuss besides opinions what our preferences would have been.
Also, what brutal hardships and how was stone tossing out ideals?
Turning the major population centers of Terra into defensive fortification. Fighting well past the point where he knew he had lost. And ruling Terra effectively as an autocratic House Lord.
Also, RAF did not act like their will to fight was broken. They fought with an absurd zeal and well past rational losses.
The Kornfled POV chapters, show a pilot not picking up what Stone was putting down. The Ares team likewise managed to switch sides with remarkable alacrity. Kornfelds last text in hour of the wolf, was a stand in for the every Mechwarrior. These coupled with Stone's Downfall moments doesn't paint a picture of zealous army. These aren't the Falcons in No Substitute for Victory.
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Stone would have known about the Battle of Luthien, one of the most important turning points of the 31st Century. It would not be obscure to an MIIO officer, or really a random dude drinking with his buds in the Davion Outback for that matter. It is true that it is not a perfect parallel, but wow.
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As much as I'd like to rehash the Battle for Terra, what could of been or should of been, BattleTech has never been big into retcons. I think had HOTW been written to be more of a nailbiter, rather than a foregone conclusion, there wouldn't be so many gripes about it.
But now I'm focused on seeing what will happen to all the survivors of the Republic. Will the Northwind Highlanders start remembering the Republic like the ELH do the Star League? Will the RAF survivors on Talitha and Marlette form rump states? Will Jonah Levin unite the surviving Paladins?
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It's still in FM3145 pg211. Unless there is a statement from TPTB s sayings it's no longer valid, or they update the PDF, it's canon. And it clearly states that Stone is unable to have an intense conversation with someone for more that 5-7 minuets before he storms away in anger.
The core assumption of Stones defensive plan was that the Clans would never work together so they could be defeated in detail. That assumption was shown to be wrong in CoK between when we saw SeaFox and Wolf collaborating, and again in HotW with the Falcons and Wolves. All the material leading up this point painted Stone as an inflexible leader, who implemented an inflexible plan, based on incorrect assumptions, and could not listen to outside council. What went wrong, or could have gone isn't some big mystery with the information on hand.
If we are going to ignore what was written, then there really isn't much on the table to discuss besides opinions what our preferences would have been.
I’m not ignoring what was written, but it looks like that thread was dropped. He’s later shown to get into the same conversations that previously gave him problems and made him storm away. For lack of simple way to put it, the complete lack of symptoms in any later text have functionally changed those outbursts into a side effect of the unfreezing, not permanent damage.
Out of universe: BLP hated Stone. If he could have left the brain damage in, he would have. Stone’s final moments were of a very cold, rational, calculating man taking one last shot at Alaric. Not a brain damaged person raving in anger at his enemies.
Turning the major population centers of Terra into defensive fortification. Fighting well past the point where he knew he had lost. And ruling Terra effectively as an autocratic House Lord.
He turned the places Falcons and Wolves would likely hit first into defensive centers, yes.
Fighting well past the point of no return? The falcons were on the planet. Surrendering when they invade is suicide. Suicide for the RAF and for millions, if not billions. When Stone knew it was over, he made sure the army that wouldn’t slaughter everyone on Terra won.
The Kornfled POV chapters, show a pilot not picking up what Stone was putting down. The Ares team likewise managed to switch sides with remarkable alacrity. Kornfelds last text in hour of the wolf, was a stand in for the every Mechwarrior. These coupled with Stone's Downfall moments doesn't paint a picture of zealous army. These aren't the Falcons in No Substitute for Victory.
Those who switched to wolves did so literally to just stop Malvina, not because Alaric or his wolves were better. BLP admitted that his ending where the RAF gleefully joins the Wolves was shot down. We see later that some of those who joined the wolves left after the ilclan trial.
You know what losses a dedicated unit fights to in this setting before it flees or surrenders? 30% is considered heavy losses in that situation. Ilclan called out hard numbers for losses for a lot of RAF units. Most fought into 80%+ casualty ranges. Against the falcons, to 100% fatalities. That’s a dedicated army.
There are always disillusioned soldiers. BLP likely meant for the lament pilot to be a stand in, but later texts make it more isolated than a universal experience.
But let’s follow topic creator and get back on topic.
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As much as I'd like to rehash the Battle for Terra, what could of been or should of been, BattleTech has never been big into retcons. I think had HOTW been written to be more of a nailbiter, rather than a foregone conclusion, there wouldn't be so many gripes about it.
But now I'm focused on seeing what will happen to all the survivors of the Republic. Will the Northwind Highlanders start remembering the Republic like the ELH do the Star League? Will the RAF survivors on Talitha and Marlette form rump states? Will Jonah Levin unite the surviving Paladins?
I think if the setting is allowed to flow as it should, yes. Some remnant will form. If the devs want RotS to just die, it’ll fizzle out. I’d like a better answer, but we really need ilKEO
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I suspect that the Highlanders will do their usual thing of simply sticking by whomever gives them Northwind.
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Not a relative apples-to-apples comparison. This is a fictional war machine we're talking about. If the basic length of time to learn how to use a BattleMech is 1.5-2 years and nothing else, you're not cranking out decent soldiers. You're cranking out chain gang-esque level troops. I don't believe for a second the RAF for running that kind of program. At best they'd shave training down to 3 years so recruits could learn how to be soldiers and MechWarriors. Otherwise they're just putting the more experienced MechWarriors and units in danger.
So I stand by the 1.5-2 graduating classes from 3145 to 3151. It's not a lot of new and reasonably useful MechWarriors. Remind me, did FM: 3145 say the Mars academy was already opened or was planning on opening/expanding? I'm trying to remember if Levin had reasonable access to new MechWarrior classes before 3145.
Academy training is to teach a cadet to be a officer, it does not deal exclusively with piloting a mech- which no matter what would be simpler than a airplane. If you need mechwarriors during wartime, you are not wasting time on a LOT of extra stuff- IF they survive and show promise they can be trained in unit on military paperwork, filling out forms, and all the other stuff that goes into the Academy curriculum. A academy education is to take the place of a university education and make the prospective officer a more rounded individual in the supposition that make them better at their military job. Also has to do with tradition as military academies were some of the first true education opportunities.
OCS officers are called, and the program gets cranked up in war time, '90-day wonders' for a reason- because that is the cycle time. Those selected for OCS are either 'mustangs' (prior enlisted) or college graduates and thus have already had (or for mustangs, passed tests IIRC) a general education which just teaches them 'military' and branch specializations.
Further, a short duration training program is backed up in canon. How long were the troops a part of the 1st Kittery Training Battalion?
Comes down to, do you want a fighter or a officer?
Btw, this has some information about how the USAF Academy operates- as jet fighters are the most technical single person vehicles (and as stated, operation is MORE complicated than Mechs), it makes a solid comparison. You will note that MOST practice flying does not happen until the 3rd & 4th years.
https://www.usafa.edu/military/airmanship/ (https://www.usafa.edu/military/airmanship/)
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There were ways to make it work, but they would require retconning basically the middle of HotW and big chunks of ilClan. To make it work, in a sentence, about the same time Stone saw wolves would “win” and started moving troops at the falcons, Alaric offers hegira to the RAF and they leave with a significant chunk of their strength intact. Stone’s last command to them being to survive and preserve the ideals of the Republic.
But that isn't what they GAVE US. we don't get to have that outcome, just like we don't get to have a real, two(or three) sided fight, so again, gotta keep asking this: what went wrong? because that outcome we were given doesn't line up without a system-wide problem with the RAF military brass below Stone.
and it's got to be systematic to get the results that we got with HoTW. Something in the training, organizational, support, administrative, something critical failed thousands of the Republics most promising young men and women.
Because they had everything they should have had to win. not 'grind down to a nub' but actually win...and they lost.
but worse than that, they lost catastrophically. 3049 militia levels of defeat against Clanners a century later when there isn't the tech disparity and you've got home field advantage doesn't square up with the Republic as presented in virtually ALL the prior material.
This isn't a demoralized, manpower deficient 3rd Reich facing the Soviet hordes in 1945 (though that's what BLP claims to have used for inspiration), this isn't a 3rd world army like Iraq up against the cream of cold-war era NATO in 1991.
we know the externality was that the Republic had to lose-and lose thoroughly for plot reasons, but what explanation can cover this in-universe besides the intervention of a cruel and vindictive god?
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But that isn't what they GAVE US. we don't get to have that outcome, just like we don't get to have a real, two(or three) sided fight, so again, gotta keep asking this: what went wrong? because that outcome we were given doesn't line up without a system-wide problem with the RAF military brass below Stone.
and it's got to be systematic to get the results that we got with HoTW. Something in the training, organizational, support, administrative, something critical failed thousands of the Republics most promising young men and women.
Because they had everything they should have had to win. not 'grind down to a nub' but actually win...and they lost.
but worse than that, they lost catastrophically. 3049 militia levels of defeat against Clanners a century later when there isn't the tech disparity and you've got home field advantage doesn't square up with the Republic as presented in virtually ALL the prior material.
This isn't a demoralized, manpower deficient 3rd Reich facing the Soviet hordes in 1945 (though that's what BLP claims to have used for inspiration), this isn't a 3rd world army like Iraq up against the cream of cold-war era NATO in 1991.
we know the externality was that the Republic had to lose-and lose thoroughly for plot reasons, but what explanation can cover this in-universe besides the intervention of a cruel and vindictive god?
Nothing. There’s not in universe explanation using pre existing logic to explain wolf victory in the manner it was done and with the remaining strength they have.
HotW has scenes with wolves attacking into 10X their strength and completely and totally demolishing those units. It’s beyond any reconciliation logically.
Because in order for the Republic to be brain dead enough to lose those fights, the rest of the battletech universe has to get dumber because these units could soundly win other fights. We’d have to accept that per HotW, the Republic just doesn’t have a superheavy doctrine - which the existence of APDS battle armor means they do - after having those units for over a decade. We’d have to reduce the entire faction to embarrassing garbage, then lower all the factions the RotS had been beating below that, then keep dealing further sympathetic damage to the setting.
Simply put, clan wolf isn’t worth trashing the setting to try and reconcile HotW. No faction is. So I just write it off as out of universe driven, impossible contrived garbage and move on.
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At some point, it just boils down to a writer who couldn't convey a convincing defeat of a clever and well-equipped foe.
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HotW has scenes with wolves attacking into 10X their strength and completely and totally demolishing those units. It’s beyond any reconciliation logically.
When? The ONLY time it happened in Hour was when the 2nd Assault Cluster under Kalidessa Kerensky with a Tau cluster in support kept up skirmishes for a few days pretending to be their whole galaxies- and they were pretty wore down after that incident. Other than that it was some mech battalions or a regiment with conventional support against two or more galaxies- the advantage of being the attacker with initiative is you get to decide when and often where the fight occurs so you can create local superiority.
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If you want an examle of bad writing just count how often Malvina survives hits to her cockpit. That is some major plot armor right there. Even Phelan and Victor had this element only used once.
But to Stone ruling without much oversight. This system was already in place when Levin dissolved the senate (which by the way was enshrined in the Republic's laws) And Levin had no choice in that matter as the Senate would never had agreed to the in deep investigations into their own actions. And with fortress Republic the senate might have looked useless with a much reduced state.
And lastly a little tidbit from Mechwarrior: Legends. Adam Steiner fought a replay of the battle of tukayyid against Stone and Stone had to win to get Steiner's support. Stone took the role as the comGuards and he lost to the Steiner led Clans. Maybe this could be seen as something of a hindsight why he lost against the clans.
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When? The ONLY time it happened in Hour was when the 2nd Assault Cluster under Kalidessa Kerensky with a Tau cluster in support kept up skirmishes for a few days pretending to be their whole galaxies- and they were pretty wore down after that incident. Other than that it was some mech battalions or a regiment with conventional support against two or more galaxies- the advantage of being the attacker with initiative is you get to decide when and often where the fight occurs so you can create local superiority.
Double checked my numbers. I had one unit size off. The Tactical Response Cluster was only attacking five times its strength when it charged Four Horsemen. And the description of how they managed that requires someone to believe that the RAF had no superheavy doctrine, no combined arms doctrine, and no training against Wolves ability to just move faster. Then after TRC defeat five times it’s strength, 3 weeks later it had the strength to help tip Stuttgart in Wolves’ favor.
Blue Heron bothers me less. I find the idea that they could repair and repaint Kalidessa’s mechs fast enough to make it work kind of a stretch, but not one that breaks any sort of in universe rules. And by the time it was done, Wolves supposedly lost a galaxy. Though that galaxy was still fighting in the ilClan trial with strength… so “neutralized”
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And lastly a little tidbit from Mechwarrior: Legends. Adam Steiner fought a replay of the battle of tukayyid against Stone and Stone had to win to get Steiner's support. Stone took the role as the comGuards and he lost to the Steiner led Clans. Maybe this could be seen as something of a hindsight why he lost against the clans.
In itself that is difficult to believe because the Clans were quite... naive... in how they fought that battle. Aiden essentially was a gamechanger for the Falcons because he realized that terrain might matter. The Wolves realized that you need to protect your supplies, and it is better to have a larger force than a smaller one. The Bears did okay because they were used to irregular warfare and planned around that but ran out of time. Otherwise, the Jags did plenty of ill-advised actions even when ordered to leave by the ilKhan, and the other Clans were easy prey. This was a far easier campaign than anything that took place in the Jihad.
Oh and the Scorpions did not stand a chance.
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Double checked my numbers. I had one unit size off. The Tactical Response Cluster was only attacking five times its strength when it charged Four Horsemen. And the description of how they managed that requires someone to believe that the RAF had no superheavy doctrine, no combined arms doctrine, and no training against Wolves ability to just move faster. Then after TRC defeat five times it’s strength, 3 weeks later it had the strength to help tip Stuttgart in Wolves’ favor.
Blue Heron bothers me less. I find the idea that they could repair and repaint Kalidessa’s mechs fast enough to make it work kind of a stretch, but not one that breaks any sort of in universe rules. And by the time it was done, Wolves supposedly lost a galaxy. Though that galaxy was still fighting in the ilClan trial with strength… so “neutralized”
The TRC was misnamed as the book says, it was really a light specialist elite galaxy (8 trinaries, some supernovas?) and was supported by the 2nd Assault Cluster- BLP's new POV characters. Their foe had also already clashed with two solahma that caused some damage and had another cluster air-mobile behind them to prevent survivors retreating. It was also the first time the Wolves rolled out a specific anti-superheavy tactic which was later countered by keeping more light screening forces around superheavies to protect their flanks. Superheavies are not really some sort of offensive wunder weapon, at least not against the Clans, since they hobble the strategic speed- Four Horseman would have been much better off to have left the superheavies behind in redoubts and sped to Bangalore. The Clans already have a strategic ground speed advantage and with the ability to take forces air mobile . . . I guess a point could be made they would never have been able to outspeed a Wolf response, so pack in all the extra firepower possible.
You also are ignoring that the Wolves had brought along, as well as salvaging, enough extra mechs that if one got trashed enough the warrior was given a temporary replacement while their own mech was rebuilt- this happened with Alaric when he used the Stormwolf to survive the DS crash in Alaska, Garner Kerensky used a Blood Reaper instead of his normal mech on the Volga IIRC, Kalidessa Kerensky used a Tundra Wolf 4 Poland instead of her Dire Wolf since it was being rebuilt after fighting the Four Horseman campaign, and more.
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He turned the places Falcons and Wolves would likely hit first into defensive centers, yes.
Block by block city fighting isn't supposed to happen. Article V of the Ares Conventions banned combat in cities, and while they conventions are no longer in force, they are still how combat is supposed to go down., and mech combat in cities is still taboo well into the 31st century with at least a lingering appeal to civility into the 32. Putting major defensive lines inside major population centers was always going to be a humanitarian tragedy.
I am going to step out of the rest of this thread of conversation. If we are actively disregarding parts of the setting, then there is nothing to do but talk past each other.
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Block by block city fighting isn't supposed to happen. Article V of the Ares Conventions banned combat in cities, and while they conventions are no longer in force, they are still how combat is supposed to go down., and mech combat in cities is still taboo well into the 31st century with at least a lingering appeal to civility into the 32. Putting major defensive lines inside major population centers was always going to be a humanitarian tragedy.
I am going to step out of the rest of this thread of conversation. If we are actively disregarding parts of the setting, then there is nothing to do but talk past each other.
You’re correct. Ares conventions were formally renounced by start of 1SW. That, and as Colt Ward has pointed out a few times: nobody fighting on Terra at the time were ever signatories. For 400 years, Ares conventions have been lofty hopes that some parties in the setting obey when convenient.
Clans have a history of dropping directly on priority targets, engaging in headhunter attacks, and seeking a quick decisive victory across the planet at strategically critical targets. Weapons, mechs, armor, ammo aren’t built in the middle of nowhere. They’re built near cities where the plants can get the technical expertise and labor they need. Stone could have build fifty redoubts in various uninhabited regions, and watched the wolves secure every supply of food, guns, ammo, mechs, etc. without taking a loss. Then the redoubts could slowly be sieged, starved, and defeated by every form of attrition.
But let’s pretend that worked, the wolves are defeated because they rush headfirst at all the redoubts instead of engaging in any strategy because Alaric wants Terra now. Cool. What happens when the falcons arrive with their history of massacring civilians under Malvina? Millions dead as they destroy the cities and RAF watches. Or what about when the Capellans, who don’t give a crap about honor, show up? They would absolutely take all the critical infrastructure and leave the redoubts to starve.
Stone defended the critical targets in a way that worked against traditional clan tactics: see the initial Falcon landings. Was defending street by street the way he probably wanted to do it? No. But it is a way to deny clans their preferred way of fighting and to make the fights as resource taxing as he can on invaders.
Remember that the first defense Stone tried on the planet was to make it a limited trial to spare the citizens of the planet.
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You’re correct. Ares conventions were formally renounced by start of 1SW. That, and as Colt Ward has pointed out a few times: nobody fighting on Terra at the time were ever signatories. For 400 years, Ares conventions have been lofty hopes that some parties in the setting obey when convenient.
Not my point, but ok lol.
I do agree with you, and we saw even in strictly IS vs IS wars the cities are not sacrosanct. Leave out the Jihad and you still had some confirmed city fighting in every major conflict since the Clan Invasion, I will use that point as the brightline b/c it marks a cultural shift in the Inner Sphere. Even the chivalrous fake Tommie Marik still had his forces drawn into city fighting during Operation Guerrero, Cappies & St Ives forces did it, FCCW had a LOT of it and on and on . . . so lip-service to 'no urban fighting' is just that, urban fighting (hello Tikonov) has been part of the setting since the beginning.
Hypocrisy, thy name is Human.
But one point . . . the 'redoubts' defenses started well outside the urban areas as described, they just fell further and further back into the cities to new defensive lines.
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The TRC was misnamed as the book says, it was really a light specialist elite galaxy (8 trinaries, some supernovas?) and was supported by the 2nd Assault Cluster- BLP's new POV characters. Their foe had also already clashed with two solahma that caused some damage and had another cluster air-mobile behind them to prevent survivors retreating. It was also the first time the Wolves rolled out a specific anti-superheavy tactic which was later countered by keeping more light screening forces around superheavies to protect their flanks. Superheavies are not really some sort of offensive wunder weapon, at least not against the Clans, since they hobble the strategic speed- Four Horseman would have been much better off to have left the superheavies behind in redoubts and sped to Bangalore. The Clans already have a strategic ground speed advantage and with the ability to take forces air mobile . . . I guess a point could be made they would never have been able to outspeed a Wolf response, so pack in all the extra firepower possible.
I had to drop it from 10X to 5X, because i found the right number for the TRC. 5:1 strength difference is with them at 8 supernova trinaries.
Four horseman smashed the solamha clusters first, yes. The two of those together were likely weaker - even together - by a long shot than TRC on its own. Which two clusters should not inflict meaningful dent against that much of a force. IlClan said they inflicted some, but it’s vague and not really believable that the losses would be so high that it gave TRC a chance.
Okay: checked about 2nd assault… zero mention in ilClan, which I why I missed them, but it is clear in HotW. That makes the fight less lopsided, but really still leaves the fight at something like…. 3:1. Unless the solamha inflicted absolutely silly casualties… still not a believable outcome.
Yes, we’ve had real life battles with bad odds flipped because of clever commanders taking advantage of terrain, a massive element of surprise, etc. None of that was used here. Not on any level that explains such a bonkers pinching up
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If we are going to ignore what was written, then there really isn't much on the table to discuss besides opinions what our preferences would have been.
Isn't that what this thread has become? Lots of people incredulous about the ROTS defeat on Terra. Yet it happened.
I don't think they will retcon it, but maybe short stories or shrapnel magazine articles will be used to broaden our understanding of the battle on terra.
To bring it back to the OP, my longshot hope is that the RAF flee to the periphery and help the Magistracy in their war against the Capelleans
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Isn't that what this thread has become? Lots of people incredulous about the ROTS defeat on Terra. Yet it happened.
I don't think they will retcon it, but maybe short stories or shrapnel magazine articles will be used to broaden our understanding of the battle on terra.
To bring it back to the OP, my longshot hope is that the RAF flee to the periphery and help the Magistracy in their war against the Capelleans
What defining event was LEFT? Tukayyid was credible, even down to Aidan's Magic Small Laser, because it was structured out with two forces acting in character (teh Clans, as a whole or individually, and comguards acting like an army would really act).
most of the other conflicts in the setting? same thing. Galtor works, most of the major battles in the Civil war and Jihad? work. The ones we have scenarios for could go either way and hing on the mix of luck and skill, not heavy-handed intervention by the writer.
If you lay out and play out the battles in HoTW, you need to cripple the living shit out of the Republic forces to get anything remotely resembling the outcome, and by that, I mean dumping everyone's stats on the Republic side to around 7/8, while pumping the Clan units to 1/2 or 0/0.
or play it single-blind wehre the Republic player has to be making hs moves blindfolded while the Wolf player knows where everything is and what moves he'll make ahead of time...
and has all the initiative rolls slotted to give him a 12 pip advantage.
but, this is the only 'defining conflict' a Republic player can actually have for their faction in terms of product support, fiction, and sourcebook material.
how so? because it invalidates or retcons every.single.one. of the Republic's previous characerizations.
They ahve to become incompetent, disorganized and demoralized in ways that the lead up doesn't allow, in order to make those outcomes happen the way they were written.
Or, everyone else (and I mean EVERYONE) has to be so utterly incompetent that sub-normal intellects in scrap gear can beat them one-handed.
There was no strategy in Stone's Strategy, and his commanders would have to have forgotten basic leadership development, training, and operations for the outcome to work as-written.
this creates a 'no point' situation.
as in, there's no point in discussing the positive traits because those were stripped off by a vindictive god.
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Isn't that what this thread has become? Lots of people incredulous about the ROTS defeat on Terra. Yet it happened.
And it completely derails (guilty) any threads on the Republic.
Which sucks, because the Republic is a unique faction, with uniques units, and it follows a completely different trajectory than any other factions. It was a great faction, that I am sad that is gone, but not sorry it died, because its death made it that much more interesting (for me).
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there's no point in discussing the positive traits because those were stripped off by a vindictive god.
If you feel there's no point discussing the positive traits, by all means, feel free to not to do so. But don't speak for the rest of us, please.
Besides, you know as well as anyone that discussion of hypotheticals regarding things that have long since unfolded in canon is the bread-and-butter around here.
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The Augustine Alliance could absorb a few regiments, allowing for some regional equalization. It would be neat if they restored a Knight-Errant/Knight/Paladin system, albeit without an Exarch. In particular, it would be neat to see the Knights of the Inner Sphere return through it, a Free Worlds League/Republic hybrid ideological unit (Without the Thomas Marik ideals weirdness that cost the League mercenaries and the like).
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The Augustine Alliance could absorb a few regiments, allowing for some regional equalization. It would be neat if they restored a Knight-Errant/Knight/Paladin system, albeit without an Exarch. In particular, it would be neat to see the Knights of the Inner Sphere return through it, a Free Worlds League/Republic hybrid ideological unit (Without the Thomas Marik ideals weirdness that cost the League mercenaries and the like).
Well since Ariana Zou ended up on that world, I think, that could very likely happen. I would support that, give the League another flavor . . . what is one more?
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Been a while since I looked at Ilclan. How many ROTS units are still out there and do we know where they are heading?
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The Augustine Alliance could absorb a few regiments, allowing for some regional equalization. It would be neat if they restored a Knight-Errant/Knight/Paladin system, albeit without an Exarch. In particular, it would be neat to see the Knights of the Inner Sphere return through it, a Free Worlds League/Republic hybrid ideological unit (Without the Thomas Marik ideals weirdness that cost the League mercenaries and the like).
Ooo! That's a fun thought experiment.
What is needed to make a faction. Feel like a Republic Successor Faction... or even a new Republic Splinter Faction?
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Been a while since I looked at Ilclan. How many ROTS units are still out there and do we know where they are heading?
“A lot going mercenary” is the most all encompassing story, which is just more “and then the RotS just gave up” and I would love to see it really just be a minority.
That we know of?
NWH and XII Hastati merged into a huge NWH
Cheetahs heading to FS/DC border
Dawn Guards working for AFFS
Seychelle’s Stonehearts
The unit in EA raiding caches.
Maybe a couple other small units.
Unaccounted for:
Unit - last seen
XVI Hastati Sentinels - Zollikofen
XI Principes Guards - Fomalhaut
XII Principes Guards - Epsilon Indi
XIII Principes Guards - Epsilon Eridani
XIV Principes Guards - Elgen
XV Principes Guards - Denebola
X Triarii Protectors - New Earth
XI Triarii Protectors - Procyon
XII Triarii Protectors - Keid
XIII Triarii Protectors - Sirius
2nd Fides
3rd Fides
6th Fides
And probably about 2000 mechwarriors on Terra looking for a way off planet. With a heck of a lot of tankers, ASF pilots, and infantry as well
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Well, SOME of the RAF's assets still had dropships on Terra- such as the defenders of the Amarillo Redoubt. Two DS escaped as the Falcons swarmed over and a lot more of them slipped out through sally tunnels. Then you have the Sydney defenders that escaped on ocean freighters . . . easy for them to get to Japan, likely some green painted dropships there available.
Biggest problem is getting a JS for them to bug out.
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Well since Ariana Zou ended up on that world, I think, that could very likely happen. I would support that, give the League another flavor . . . what is one more?
The question will be how any new Paladin feels about the "traitor senators who forced us into a mini civil war!" Remember it were the senators who killed Victor and who tried to undermine the entire Republic. There is enough evidence of it and Zou should have seen it given the fact she worked closely with Paladins before. But then again a good protion of the original senators is dead by now (first and formost Connor) so maybe that is enough to consider reconcilliation
And to point out the Ares convention: Alaric wasted little time shwoing how much he cared for it when he burned down that one small city in Australia in realiation for the destroyed supply dump. Something that for example could never happen on Tukayyid because Comstar cleared the planet before the battle. Fighting against the Clans is in a way like fighting a Shadow division: throw the rulebook out of the window because these guys don't fight according to said rulebook
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There is enough evidence of it and Zou should have seen it given the fact she worked closely with Paladins before.
More relevant, she became a Paladin during the Senate Rebellion; she took Meraj's place when he was killed during the beginning of the rebellion.
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Exarch Stone made that irrelevant when he claimed to have the authority to dissolve the Republic. By rejecting that authority, the Augustine Alliance gives the Paladin a way out, even if an unexpected one.
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Yeah, I don't see Ariana Zou signing up with the people that killed her predecessor and helped put the nails in the Republic's coffin. Not without some ridiculously out-of-character writing... which, to be fair, isn't the rarest thing when it comes to BattleTech.
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What suprised me on the defense was that Stone literally ignored the Moon. That could have been a major base for surfaced launched missiles and PWS's as well as Aerospace fighters. It's literally a fortress that while it may only be in position for a short period of time it could have been a massive launching point or place for the Republic warships to rally at.
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What suprised me on the defense was that Stone literally ignored the Moon. That could have been a major base for surfaced launched missiles and PWS's as well as Aerospace fighters. It's literally a fortress that while it may only be in position for a short period of time it could have been a massive launching point or place for the Republic warships to rally at.
There are no PWSs in Ba Sing Se Sol
But toss it on the list of RotS assets forgotten in HotW
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There are no PWSs in Ba Sing Se Sol
But toss it on the list of RotS assets forgotten in HotW
If we had a listing of known assets like that that were outright forgotten by BLP, it might be enough to actually still have a Republic Faction, rather than just 'fresh meat for teh merc market'.
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The Rumpublic of the Sphere. What planet would their new capital be, do you think?
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The Rumpublic of the Sphere. What planet would their new capital be, do you think?
It'd almost have to be on the FWL border, but away from the Cappies and either bypassed or out of alignment for the Wolves.
Or...bear with me here...
Spacer and belter based.
which can give Wolf fans a fun storyline as Alaric has to search for them.
Flying columns of units, never easily pinned down ala the IRA in the 1920s-always moving, always mobile, hitting Wolf Garrisons and Wolf Assets and getting revenge for Wolf Atrocities.
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The Rumpublic of the Sphere. What planet would their new capital be, do you think?
Callison or Northwind. Both have narrative benefits. Both have history with the RotS.
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It'd almost have to be on the FWL border, but away from the Cappies and either bypassed or out of alignment for the Wolves.
Or...bear with me here...
Spacer and belter based.
which can give Wolf fans a fun storyline as Alaric has to search for them.
Flying columns of units, never easily pinned down ala the IRA in the 1920s-always moving, always mobile, hitting Wolf Garrisons and Wolf Assets and getting revenge for Wolf Atrocities.
Callison or Northwind. Both have narrative benefits. Both have history with the RotS.
How do we make this happen?
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Callison or Northwind. Both have narrative benefits. Both have history with the RotS.
I like this. Especially Northwind. Tara Campbell rode hard for the Republic and I'd love to see her people carry on her spirit.
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While we are talking about "missing" Republic assets: where has the Republic stored their 3 Faslanes and that one Newgrange yardship? From FM 3145 the 3 Faslanes are mothballed as they were a drain on ressources in the peacetime Republic and they could not reactivate them during the rearmament phase as Mechs, tanks, fighters and Dropships had priority. I know that the Newgrange ship Mercy was more or less written off (hit by an asteroid strike) in the FM 3145 but in the other books the ships were never mentioned. Maybe in the coming Ilkhan eyes only.
Also we don't know if the Republic had any "secret" bases around their prefectures. Just like the original Hegemony had stations and point where they could regroup (like Liberty and Freedom station) Heck maybe they had their own "hidden" worlds. Though very doubtful as the Republic is dead now and they don't want to have the specter of a Phantom Republic constantly brought up. We already have the Word of Blake for that
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How do we make this happen?
Northwind is easy. Levin arrives there and puts a call out to surviving RAF. Then a call out to all Republic citizens, any spheroids really, wishing to escape the [ANTI-WOLF PROPAGANDA] and saying Northwind will protect them. There’s enough unaccounted for RAF assets and way more than enough RAF troops just needing a way off Terra and hardware to turn Northwind and a couple surrounding systems into a region that wolves and Capellans just can’t spare troops to wear down.
Callison is a bit harder, but it’s a nice sort of poetry that the Republic in Exile creates its new home from the last sanctuary of the Republic Remnants. It also allows a concentration of RAF troops to become the plug that explains why Alaric hasn’t been able to contact the Empire.
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Callison is just not going to happen unless it accepts memberstate status. If it did, it would essentially be a Republic without an army.
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Callison is just not going to happen unless it accepts memberstate status. If it did, it would essentially be a Republic without an army.
Yeah. FWL has already been shown to take it and surrounding worlds in EA. There’s need to be a lot to explain RAF getting it back.
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Northwind is also already out, they are working/cooperating with the remaining Hansen's Roughriders where they settled in the FS.
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There is a small cluster of former Prefecture IV worlds taken into "protective custody" by the Federated Suns still in Davion hands - Ankaa, Tybalt, Mirach, Caselton, New Rhodes, and Schedar. Julian Davion may be willing to hand them back over to a Republic in Exile. They'll form a bit of a speed bump when it comes to threats emanating from the direction of Terra and might assuage any personal regrets he's still harboring over not honoring his deal with Devlin Stone. Plus, the annexation was one of Erik Sandoval's accomplishments, so undoing it may be a point he can score in the ongoing internal struggle with his Prince's Champion.
Tybalt and Mirach were once crown jewels of Bannson Universal Unlimited, meaning they probably have good administrative capabilities, and several of them have IndustrialMech construction capabilities that could potentially be upgraded. There's not a lot in the way of ready military industry on any of these worlds, but there are several potential industrial targets within a single jump of Tybalt should any of their current owners get distracted by bigger threats in the near future. Tikonov would be a huge get, but it's historically a meat grinder. New Hessen is further afield but may be an easier target to take and hold.
If the Highlanders are still keen on The Republic, it's slightly less than 60 light years between Northwind and Ankaa and the Combine isn't likely to contest Small World, Ingress, or Deneb Kaitos too heavily given everything else going on at the moment.
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There is a small cluster of former Prefecture IV worlds taken into "protective custody" by the Federated Suns still in Davion hands - Ankaa, Tybalt, Mirach, Caselton, New Rhodes, and Schedar. Julian Davion may be willing to hand them back over to a Republic in Exile. They'll form a bit of a speed bump when it comes to threats emanating from the direction of Terra and might assuage any personal regrets he's still harboring over not honoring his deal with Devlin Stone. Plus, the annexation was one of Erik Sandoval's accomplishments, so undoing it may be a point he can score in the ongoing internal struggle with his Prince's Champion.
Tybalt and Mirach were once crown jewels of Bannson Universal Unlimited, meaning they probably have good administrative capabilities, and several of them have IndustrialMech construction capabilities that could potentially be upgraded. There's not a lot in the way of ready military industry on any of these worlds, but there are several potential industrial targets within a single jump of Tybalt should any of their current owners get distracted by bigger threats in the near future. Tikonov would be a huge get, but it's historically a meat grinder. New Hessen is further afield but may be an easier target to take and hold.
If the Highlanders are still keen on The Republic, it's slightly less than 60 light years between Northwind and Ankaa and the Combine isn't likely to contest Small World, Ingress, or Deneb Kaitos too heavily given everything else going on at the moment.
okay, let's plan this campaign.
Oh, you think I'm joking? I never LIKED the Republic, but I liked how it was done in even LESS...and now I suddenly find I have a bit of a soft-spot for them, and want to see them prove that "Hour of the Wolf" wasn't the END of the war, that it was the start of it.
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There is no way that Julian can afford to give away planets to a faction that just got curb stomped. It would be ammunition for Erik that Julian is "losing planets"
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War Academy of Mars had been back up and running since 3137 according to FM 3145.
Also Academies don't work like that(only two graduating classes from 3145 to 3151). Classes would be staggered as not everything can be taught at once. So rather than letting instructors sit idle they'd do something like start a class in 3137(since that is when the War Academy of Mars re-opens) but once those cadets move onto a different phase of their course work start another class in 3138.
So staggering like that so no class is ever empty they would actually have the graduating classes of 3140, 3141, 3142, 3143, 3144, 3145, 3146, 3147, 3148, 3149, 3150, and possibly 3151.
I double checked last night: you're absolutely correct. I was just looking at the total number of classes that enrolled and graduated while Stone was in charge (*3147, maybe, but 3148 onward). That's 100% my bad. I completely forgot about the staggering of the 3137 classes onward. They're Spring/Fall, so two graduations a year makes for plenty of decently trained MechWarriors by 3149.
I'll need to look at the FM:3145/Shattered Fortress/ilClan data, but I *feel* like between Fortress losses/retirements, new graduates, official unit additions, new militia, etc., the loss/gain numbers will be close enough to fit in-universe explanations, but I could be wrong. The XLS will decide. Might make a compelling argument for pushing the Fortress to redline before launching Shofar & Eruptio.
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There is no way that Julian can afford to give away planets to a faction that just got curb stomped. It would be ammunition for Erik that Julian is "losing planets"
Besides that, Julian has already made Loren Hansen of Hansen's Roughriders the Duke of Tybalt in exchange for fighting for him. And the Roughriders have subcontracted the Highlanders into Davion service as well. Reneging on that deal doesn't just make Julian look bad to Erik, it also actively costs him troops that he desperately needs.
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He also already gave away plants to the Foxes . . .
Something no one is mentioning is the OTHER potential ally . . .
Trillian Steiner
The Isle of Skye area or around Hesperus in general would be a boost, and if they were inducted to the political system they could be a shot in the arm for her support.
Either way, IF a Republic-in-Exile ends up existing AND any troops under that flag are captured by the Wolf Clan/Wolf League . . . they are likely to be treated as bandits due to the surrender terms. Such a pronouncement would cause some recruitment problems for Levin & escaped Knights.
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There is no way that Julian can afford to give away planets to a faction that just got curb stomped. It would be ammunition for Erik that Julian is "losing planets"
Northwind is also already out, they are working/cooperating with the remaining Hansen's Roughriders where they settled in the FS.
I’ve wondered about a RotS in Exile that spanned from Northwind to Tybalt. There’s a couple issues but it could be done.
1) we know that at least by start of 3152, Northwind is independent and NWH are working with Duke of Tybalt, who I believe is the head of Hanson’s Roughriders.
2) Capellans are picking at NW with Mercs.
3) The one RAF unit on NW (XII Hastati) was absorbed into NWH.
4) FS isn’t gonna give up the worlds.
5) Most of the unaccounted for RAF units were stationed in what is now CC and DC space, relatively close to NW.
6) DD shows Tybalt as FS space June 3152
Short version of my idea: NW, in January 3152, reveals Levin is around and they put out the call. All RAF, all RotS citizens to rally to NW. They get all the various RAF units rallying to them. For several months, insert some issue. Maybe they take the fight to the wolves on Caph. Then, sometime after June 3152, Duke of Tybalt breaks with FS, and a new state is formed. Throw in some reasons for the systems between them to be conquered or join up, and you create a small, potent state between CC, DC, Wolfes, and FS.
CC can’t spare the units for a concentrated push at this time. FS would publicly be against them, but privately might be looking at the benefits of a buffer state. DC might try to take a swing, but they just lost a lot on that border and have the bears to deal with. That leaves wolves, who shouldn’t be able to spare the troops to wipe the RotS out.
What I don’t have is an explanation on where the RAF units in CC and DC space were before this call. That’s a six month delay between dissolution and this call, minimum.
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Either way, IF a Republic-in-Exile ends up existing AND any troops under that flag are captured by the Wolf Clan/Wolf League . . . they are likely to be treated as bandits due to the surrender terms. Such a pronouncement would cause some recruitment problems for Levin & escaped Knights.
Alaric already murdered surrendering RAF troops multiple times and threatened to do it on at least one more occasion. Falcons murdered every RAF troop they defeated. So how is Alaric being angry about a RotS in exile change anything?
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Alaric already murdered surrendering RAF troops multiple times and threatened to do it on at least one more occasion. Falcons murdered every RAF troop they defeated. So how is Alaric being angry about a RotS in exile change anything?
You kind of just answered your own question there: because Alaric has demonstrated multiple times that he's A-OK with killing surrendered troops. That's the sorta thing that might make some folks hesitate to sign on in the first place.
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Alaric already murdered surrendering RAF troops multiple times and threatened to do it on at least one more occasion. Falcons murdered every RAF troop they defeated. So how is Alaric being angry about a RotS in exile change anything?
For a clanner it would be something akin to being dezgra but for IS sensitives it would be irrelevant and if he threatens to kill everyone who doesn't surrender I would expect a bloodbath as the Republicans would this time put up a literal fight to the death.
The scenario might need some addendum. I would expect that Levin has been privy to all secrets of the Republic. So maybe he knows some secret caches or facilities. Just imagine if he manages to at least bring one of the Faslanes with him (unrealisitc I know). And let's not forget if the remnant RAF manages to regroup. If they have some Jumpships left they could strike at ANY Wolf-held world right now and bring it back to the fold for a short time at least now that every Wolf is now stationed on Terra and they don't seem to leave the world. Maybe raid Devils Rock first try to get anything still left and then blow up the workshops. Sure the wolves have some RISC tech but I doubt they have taken the plans with them
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There does not appear to be a credible commitment issue with troops fighting against Clan Wolf in the Inner Sphere.
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Alaric already murdered surrendering RAF troops multiple times and threatened to do it on at least one more occasion. Falcons murdered every RAF troop they defeated. So how is Alaric being angry about a RotS in exile change anything?
A, surrendering is not a right
B, the only time he did it was on Helm against Marik-Stewart Commonwealth troops who were trying to surrender to someone else while still powered up
C, occasionally the Crusader Wolves did kill those attempting to surrender though such a act falls under 'reprisal' for laws of war
D, the Falcons did NOT murder everyone- Stephanie Christu specifically let the Amazonas fade into the population and took the CO as a bondswoman- Roshak who had to deal with the Old Guard killed a trooper who knew they could not surrender on the battlefield
E, a reformation of the Republic or some political entity claiming their legitimacy and raising troops would be seen as dezgra for failure to abide the surrender by all of the Clans- including the Bears and Foxes.
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You kind of just answered your own question there: because Alaric has demonstrated multiple times that he's A-OK with killing surrendered troops. That's the sorta thing that might make some folks hesitate to sign on in the first place.
It can also have the opposite effect. Hardening hearts against him and increasing recruitment.
Flip side, Alaric has given a lot of reasons to sign up to fight him.
As far as the rest of the sphere knows:
- He’s shown there’s no respect given to sovereignty. If he wants something, he’ll kill anyone to take it. (Admittedly, this is norm for basically every nation in the setting save the RotS)
- He’s now embraced the mass murder happy, civilian slaughtering mongol falcons.
- Life in the Wolf Empire has shown life under Alaric’s wolves is miserable. To the point that people are forced to choose to fight and die for Alaric’s whims just to feed their families. We see Alaric’s wolves taking supplies from civilians to make sure the warriors are okay because that’s all that mattered.
- After the republic surrendered, he went out of his way to attempt to stomp out its culture by dissolving the nation instead of accepting surrender and absorbing them. Knowing that being conquered by the wolves means they’ll try to erase your culture is a big motivator.
- After defeating the republic, he goes and murders a surrendered leader (Stone) who wasn’t fighting back anymore in cold blood and who was beloved by most of the Republic.
- and if there was any doubts, his little announcement in June 3152 makes it clear he has no intention of recognizing anyone else’s sovereignty or right to rule and thats he’s coming for you
It paints a picture of a vindictive tyrant. Not a leader who will win hearts and minds. We, out of universe, know some of this isn’t true, but the average spheroid doesn’t. His actions are more likely to recruit those against him.
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A, surrendering is not a right
B, the only time he did it was on Helm against Marik-Stewart Commonwealth troops who were trying to surrender to someone else while still powered up
C, occasionally the Crusader Wolves did kill those attempting to surrender though such a act falls under 'reprisal' for laws of war
D, the Falcons did NOT murder everyone- Stephanie Christu specifically let the Amazonas fade into the population and took the CO as a bondswoman- Roshak who had to deal with the Old Guard killed a trooper who knew they could not surrender on the battlefield
E, a reformation of the Republic or some political entity claiming their legitimacy and raising troops would be seen as dezgra for failure to abide the surrender by all of the Clans- including the Bears and Foxes.
A - that point is actually irrelevant. It’s that killing surrendered troops is atypical that is the problem
B - we discussed this before. He did twice more in Shattered Fortress. I found one and you did.
D - okay. Not everyone. Just almost everyone.
E - Supposedly, it’s RasDom and not a clan anymore. They shouldn’t care as a nation. Just isolated units wouldncare. Horses won’t will look for any excuse to needle Alaric. Cats and Ravens are too far away to matter. Foxes are hard to tell what they’d do, but they are less hidebound than other clans. Only group that cares and is in a place to matter is the wolves.
And it’s would be rich hypocrisy from clan wolf given they Refused to acknowledge their loss in the Great refusal and refused to accept their defeat and absorption during the refusal war.
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Outside the Horses at this time, eventually the other Clans will have forces as part of the Star League. If/when they run into the Republic whatever, the troops would be considered bandits by all. Question of Survival shows the Bear touman has a expectation of being part of the Star League's efforts.
The Crusader Wolves did not loose their portion of the Great Refusal, which is why they said they were not bound by the 'best out of 7?' terms.
- He’s now embraced the mass murder happy, civilian slaughtering mongol falcons.
- Life in the Wolf Empire has shown life under Alaric’s wolves is miserable. To the point that people are forced to choose to fight and die for Alaric’s whims just to feed their families. We see Alaric’s wolves taking supplies from civilians to make sure the warriors are okay because that’s all that mattered.
- After the republic surrendered, he went out of his way to attempt to stomp out its culture by dissolving the nation instead of accepting surrender and absorbing them. Knowing that being conquered by the wolves means they’ll try to erase your culture is a big motivator.
-the Falcons now include Tara Campbell, and as far as reputation Jiyi Christu's Falcons are going to do some rep repair (not wiping out mercs in the first place already establishes a difference) which will help the Black Falcon Watch.
-You have two stories of cadets at Olympia . . . mean while we have more stories where Spheriods find life as part of the Wolf Clan beneficial- the freebirth warriors looking to found a Bloodhouse, including one noble, and the Solaris warrior who is adopted into the Wolves which IIRC gets his son medical care & education.
The supply question is non-unique. EVERY military will requisition, and sometimes forcefully, supplies as needed by circumstance . . . though none are the same as what happened with Archer Pryde in that novella, you might be confusing Wolves & Mongol Falcons here.
-The Republic's governmental structures and military culture were dissolved. This is not the same as the actual culture on Terra. As we are told, even after 100 years in the old original OZs, parts of the old IS cultures remained- adapted to the Clan culture. This is the same as the Normans taking over England, the Mongols taking over China, etc, etc History shows, and in BT too, cultural assimilation flows from the larger population to the smaller- the RasDom is a great example. Heck, the Crusaders took over Solaris and STILL allow the games and in fact feed them with the Trials of Reaving/Propagation.
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He also already gave away plants to the Foxes . . .
Something no one is mentioning is the OTHER potential ally . . .
Trillian Steiner
The Isle of Skye area or around Hesperus in general would be a boost, and if they were inducted to the political system they could be a shot in the arm for her support.
Either way, IF a Republic-in-Exile ends up existing AND any troops under that flag are captured by the Wolf Clan/Wolf League . . . they are likely to be treated as bandits due to the surrender terms. Such a pronouncement would cause some recruitment problems for Levin & escaped Knights.
He didn't so much give worlds away to the Foxes as he was bent over a barrel by the Foxes and convinced to hand them over or else.
And Trillian isn't in much of a situation to help anyone. If she were, there wouldn't even be a Hinterlands or Jiyi Chistu to discuss, there'd just be a big new blue stripe on the map. Ludwig carving out that Dixie salient, though, suggests that what forces she does have are about trying to retake territory on that border.
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He didn't so much give worlds away to the Foxes as he was bent over a barrel by the Foxes and convinced to hand them over or else.
And Trillian isn't in much of a situation to help anyone. If she were, there wouldn't even be a Hinterlands or Jiyi Chistu to discuss, there'd just be a big new blue stripe on the map. Ludwig carving out that Dixie salient, though, suggests that what forces she does have are about trying to retake territory on that border.
Sure, but they are not going to be invited somewhere they are not needed- the Dracs and Cappies are of course out. Lyrans need help and if Levin took everything that could escape off Terra- the 'disposition unknown'- he could form some sort of regional military which bolsters Trillian.
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I like the irony of a bunch of Republic In Exile forces capturing Wolf Empire worlds.
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I like the irony of a bunch of Republic In Exile forces capturing Wolf Empire worlds.
The Wolves may even have issues with going back to those worlds. Many Wolf units have been beaten pretty badly and will need time to rebuild. Some units may even resist leaving Terra.
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- After the republic surrendered, he went out of his way to attempt to stomp out its culture by dissolving the nation instead of accepting surrender and absorbing them. Knowing that being conquered by the wolves means they’ll try to erase your culture is a big motivator.
Pointing out that the Republic did do the stomp out the Blakists and did the whole population transfer thing to speed of assimilation to create a new nation, only 80 years back.
I also think that Terra is going to be special in this regards. What happens in the crown jewel of the Inner Sphere may not necessarily be the same deal that the rest of the former Republic worlds get. How the Wolves manage their worlds doesn't seam to far from the median of what the Combine or the Confederation does.
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Pointing out that the Republic did do the stomp out the Blakists and did the whole population transfer thing to speed of assimilation to create a new nation, only 80 years back.
I also think that Terra is going to be special in this regards. What happens in the crown jewel of the Inner Sphere may not necessarily be the same deal that the rest of the former Republic worlds get. How the Wolves manage their worlds doesn't seam to far from the median of what the Combine or the Confederation does.
I would characterize that as quite different, actually. The Blakists, at least according to Jihad Hot Spots: Terra, were incredibly hands off in their rule of Terra and much of Terran support of them came from "Restore the Star League and Terra's preeminence over all nations" sentiments than actual attachment to blakist doctrine.
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I would characterize that as quite different, actually. The Blakists, at least according to Jihad Hot Spots: Terra, were incredibly hands off in their rule of Terra and much of Terran support of them came from "Restore the Star League and Terra's preeminence over all nations" sentiments than actual attachment to blakist doctrine.
That is the part that was also mentioned in the IE sourcebook: the book was set a few years after the creation of the Republic and in the Terran system there was a political movement of Terran nationalists whose main goal was to establish a Neo Hegemony. I suspect if Alaric can sell them this dream (Terra over all so to speak) he might have at least an incentive to make Terra compliant. The problem is of course that the Wolves so far never had to deal with such a huge population in one place. And what is more important at one point he has to induct Terrans into his ranks lest he alienates billions of people. And as you point out the Word gave Terrans at least the ilusion of cooperation with their Terran congress and they also used Terran businessmen to build the small Protectorate around them (before the Jihad).
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I would characterize that as quite different, actually. The Blakists, at least according to Jihad Hot Spots: Terra, were incredibly hands off in their rule of Terra and much of Terran support of them came from "Restore the Star League and Terra's preeminence over all nations" sentiments than actual attachment to blakist doctrine.
He is point out that Stone came in and stomped out the 'Blakists' and ripped the existing cultures of worlds up to remove old loyalties for the sake of his Republic.
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So it may be that taking Terra is the easy part. Building an Ilclan/Third Star League is the hard part.
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So it may be that taking Terra is the easy part. Building an Ilclan/Third Star League is the hard part.
That's pretty much exactly what Stone said to Alaric on his deathbed.
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The main part is how Alaric will restructure the system. For example when the Terran Hegemony was formed the basic political system was only marignally changed (though some leading figures were executed). This kept the Alliance running and eased the administration. When Kerensky had finally toppeld Amaris he made the mistake of holding new elections right away crippling the state. The Republic on the other hand kept a lot of Terran administrators in place but installed complete new structures to rule over a new state. I would suspect this will happen now too. The Falcons for example learned the hard way that simply putting Clan merchants in charge of IS economic structures turned into one huge clusterflop. The Wolves have some experience but now they are all in one place with more inhabitants on one planet as they have ever managed before. Plus being basically sourounded by states that can be either considered enemies or at best neutral isan't the best starting position especially as the Wolves have no real advantage over the rest.
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Snap elections are quite normal worldwide. It is popular in particular to hold them in times of no confidence or at times when you think that you can break the opposition. Simply put, you hold elections earlier than scheduled. They do not take place in countries like the United States due to Constitutionally mandated terms of office.
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The main part is how Alaric will restructure the system. For example when the Terran Hegemony was formed the basic political system was only marignally changed (though some leading figures were executed). This kept the Alliance running and eased the administration. When Kerensky had finally toppeld Amaris he made the mistake of holding new elections right away crippling the state. The Republic on the other hand kept a lot of Terran administrators in place but installed complete new structures to rule over a new state. I would suspect this will happen now too. The Falcons for example learned the hard way that simply putting Clan merchants in charge of IS economic structures turned into one huge clusterflop. The Wolves have some experience but now they are all in one place with more inhabitants on one planet as they have ever managed before. Plus being basically sourounded by states that can be either considered enemies or at best neutral isan't the best starting position especially as the Wolves have no real advantage over the rest.
We’ve seen very little post ilClan trial, so anyones guess is valid here, but his rejection of the bears, his uncompromising… everything in HotW, and obsession with a dream doesn’t instill me with confidence in Alaric making a hard angle and suddenly becoming a great leader of a people. So far he’s demonstrated a magnificent ability to conquer. His ability to rule… eh? Wolf OZ wasn’t his rule, but we see the citizens there gladly accept the Suzerein approach of the horses compared to wolf leadership. In EA was see glimmers of the same hate of the wolves.
And he’s doing it on a planet where a century has been spent telling the citizens the clans are the boogeymen and Alaric has played the part to the letter so far. If we want Alaric turned into a good character (or at least back to tolerable), he’s gonna need to suffer some painful lessons trying to rule.
And a mild nitpick, Wolfes do have some advantages over nearby states. The surviving touman should be very high skill, and with their pick of a couple thousand trashed mechs, very well equipped. So it’s completely reasonable to see who he has left ready to go in pretty record time. But he has to leave a significant portion of forces on Terra, has one immediate threat in CC, one threat to worry him in DC, whatever resistance RAF offers, has to watch his back for the usual clan politicking via knife or actual politics, and he can’t afford any manpower losses. Every dead wolf warrior is irreplaceable for the near future.
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And he’s doing it on a planet where a century has been spent telling the citizens the clans are the boogeymen and Alaric has played the part to the letter so far. If we want Alaric turned into a good character (or at least back to tolerable), he’s gonna need to suffer some painful lessons trying to rule.
And a mild nitpick, Wolfes do have some advantages over nearby states. The surviving touman should be very high skill, and with their pick of a couple thousand trashed mechs, very well equipped. So it’s completely reasonable to see who he has left ready to go in pretty record time. But he has to leave a significant portion of forces on Terra, has one immediate threat in CC, one threat to worry him in DC, whatever resistance RAF offers, has to watch his back for the usual clan politicking via knife or actual politics, and he can’t afford any manpower losses. Every dead wolf warrior is irreplaceable for the near future.
I would add this is also aplanet whose population loathed Kerensky for abandoning them to the ravages of the Succesion Wars. Only Comstar safed them (and nearly threw away all the goodwill they earned for that). Not to mention that the Clans are still seen by some as a perversion of what the Star League used to be.
The main problöem I see for alaric is manpower. If he still wants "pure Clan seyla" he is in for a very hard time as he simply has no fresh graduates left. The Dragoons are currently raiding the empire taking every fresh warrior with a "thank you very much" message (including solahma warriors too). Plus while Terra is literally littered with wreckage he had to sell quite a bit of it to the Foxes in return for their transport services. And the Foxes also have begun selling wolf equipment to the Empire Wolves (mention in Empire Alone).
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Terrans also expect to live to be 150, only have jobs if they want to, have those jobs max out at 20 hours a week and spend most of their time pursuing personal interests. Somehow I don't see that persisting under a system that decides on whether you get medical care in the same way a farmer does a workhorse.
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A lot of Republic troops joined the Wolves to keep Terra out of the Falcons hands. He could convince a lot them that Terra is best held by the Wolves and not in the hands of the Combine. Might help if he created new units with Republic leadership in them.
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Fighting against the Falcons made sense, staying on the side of the Wolves does not.
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Fighting against the Falcons made sense, staying on the side of the Wolves does not.
Up until you realize the Capellans are also going to come calling.
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Is keeping Terra in Alaric's hands really preferable to Daoshen's from the perspective of most Republic troops?
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Is keeping Terra in Alaric's hands really preferable to Daoshen's from the perspective of most Republic troops?
By what has happened, only people less preferable to the Capellans would be the Mongol Falcons.
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By what has happened, only people less preferable to the Capellans would be the Mongol Falcons.
Let's see... the RAF mud-stomped the Cappies the last time, then got mud-stomped by the Wolves. I suspect most Republic natives won't be particularly worried about Daoshen's horde, seeing as they beat the capellans like a rented mule in the earlier part of the century, and it took the Republic breaking out in a multisided civil war for the Cappies to regain any ground at all.
This perception, may not be accurate, but unlike us, the characters do not have perfect information from canon sources to tell them otherwise.
what they have, is what they learned in their school, and what they experienced in their lives. The Wolves just mud-stomped the most powerful (as far as the locals know) military on the block.
Upshot being i don't see them rushing or racing to enlist to fight the Cappies, because they probably don't think of the Cappies as nearly teh serious threat that the people who just conquered the crap out of them are.
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There is absolutely nothing in canon to substantiate that claim, but there is canon to suggest the opposite: the RAF described the CapCon in FM3145 as "one of the greatest threats to the survival of The Republic, if not the Inner Sphere."
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There is absolutely nothing in canon to substantiate that claim, but there is canon to suggest the opposite: the RAF described the CapCon in FM3145 as "one of the greatest threats to the survival of The Republic, if not the Inner Sphere."
That was after the Clans though, so threat ranking is
Clans Wolf/Falcon
Capellans
And the Republic is dead, Republic soldiers have little reason to fight for the Wolves against the Capellans. Only benefit is warrior status.
Which is why Alaric really needs to create some Republic Veteran Brigades that can be used as militia or something, create buy-in. But HOTW/EA/DD painted Alaric as too arrogant for that. We'll see what IKEO says though, maybe he has a change of heart.
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That was after the Clans though, so threat ranking is
Clans Wolf/Falcon
Capellans
No offense, but so what? I never said they were ranked higher than the Clans, simply that they weren't seen as a non-threat.
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The Dark Age CCAF is an absurdly powerful military force compared to the other regional powers. No one denies that. I am including the Wolves as a regional power. They have an excellent mix of numbers, quality and will.
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The Dark Age CCAF is an absurdly powerful military force compared to the other regional powers. No one denies that. I am including the Wolves as a regional power. They have an excellent mix of numbers, quality and will.
Cannonshop seems to think the average Republic (ex-)citizen denies that, which is both demonstrably untrue and what I was responding to. Not sure why the Wolves are being compared to them in the first place here; both powers were pretty equally a threat to the Republic (the Wolves only edge them out because of the massive amount of favoritism they were shown in HotW/ilClan).
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Cannonshop seems to think the average Republic (ex-)citizen denies that, which is both demonstrably untrue and what I was responding to. Not sure why the Wolves are being compared to them in the first place here; both powers were pretty equally a threat to the Republic (the Wolves only edge them out because of the massive amount of favoritism they were shown in HotW/ilClan).
Wolves also had a better black water navy. 2 Liao Warships to the Wolve's 5 or 6.
House Liao lost close to 4 regiments completely jumping against Fortress walls. I wonder if they've replaced them, or fixed up the regiments mauled on Marlette, New Syrtis, or Northwind. They also have almost no allies left anymore, even Canopus is pulling away. I feel like the spoiler attack by Andurien will distract Liao enough to allow the Wolves to build their buffer.
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Sorry for double-posting, but had a thought very much on topic come to me.
I know the Republic has gotten plenty of fiction in a dozen different sourcebooks, but I think as an Inner Sphere power that was around for almost 50% of the game's history (BT started in 1984, ROTS was created in 2002, it is now 2023, so Republic was around for 19 of the game's 39 years, almost 20), it probably deserves a sourcebook/housebook where all that information unique to just the Republic could be put down.
It would be a neat fan-project at the very least.
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I think a lot of the Republic Troops that the Wolves adopted into the Clan will be used eventually to fill out the ranks. There is a reason those former Republic Troops will do so. There gonna want to keep There mechs, there careers. Leaving the Clan and there new warrior caste positions will mean dropping down into the Clans lower castes never to rise again. To most mechwarriors that will be anathema.
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They also have almost no allies left anymore, even Canopus is pulling away. I feel like the spoiler attack by Andurien will distract Liao enough to allow the Wolves to build their buffer.
The shift in dynamic in the Capellan/Canopian/Andurien sphere of influence has been, like so much of the ilClan era, really out of left field. FM3145 was pretty clear in that the CapCon and MoC were closer than ever, even starting to connect on a social/cultural level, and now that's seemingly going out the window for reasons, I guess. They really do need to do a better job of laying the groundwork for these things instead of making the conflicts so contrived and artificial. There's no reason why either Canopus or Andurien should be pulling away from/initiating hostilities with the CapCon right now.
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The shift in dynamic in the Capellan/Canopian/Andurien sphere of influence has been, like so much of the ilClan era, really out of left field. FM3145 was pretty clear in that the CapCon and MoC were closer than ever, even starting to connect on a social/cultural level, and now that's seemingly going out the window for reasons, I guess. They really do need to do a better job of laying the groundwork for these things instead of making the conflicts so contrived and artificial. There's no reason why either Canopus or Andurien should be pulling away from/initiating hostilities with the CapCon right now.
Andurien is going to Andurien at the end of the day. It's just their sthick.
The Canopus/Liao split seems to be that Canopus is feeling their military is being abused, the Magestrix feels like the Junior partner to Daoshen who disrespects her because he's dumb. It was surprising but not out of left field or untelegraphed. Plenty of alliances have broken down historically due to lack of respect or one power using the other rather than providing benefit.
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honestly the capellan/Canopian relationship breaking down is loooong over due
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Andurien is going to Andurien at the end of the day. It's just their sthick.
The Canopus/Liao split seems to be that Canopus is feeling their military is being abused, the Magestrix feels like the Junior partner to Daoshen who disrespects her because he's dumb. It was surprising but not out of left field or untelegraphed. Plenty of alliances have broken down historically due to lack of respect or one power using the other rather than providing benefit.
Their alliance with the Confederation still befuddles Free Worlds League fans to this day, along with Wallacia willingly defecting to the Confederation. It would have been like the Smoke Jaguars becoming peaceniks during the Clan Invasion arc.
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Their alliance with the Confederation still befuddles Free Worlds League fans to this day, along with Wallacia willingly defecting to the Confederation. It would have been like the Smoke Jaguars becoming peaceniks during the Clan Invasion arc.
the FWL/Capellan love fest has always kinda annoyed me, it's like the writers forget at how much abd blood is on that border all so they can prop up Chancellor Gary Tzu
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It was surprising but not out of left field or untelegraphed. Plenty of alliances have broken down historically due to lack of respect or one power using the other rather than providing benefit.
It was absolutely out of left field and untelegraphed. The last major update we had, which was ER3145 and FM3145, their alliance was deeper than ever and showing absolutely no signs of strain. It wasn't until Empire Alone that a problem was even mentioned to begin with. But the change in direction behind the scenes between FM3145 and ilClan has seen a lot of shifts like this (looking at you, RasDom). Andurien is at least a little bit more understandable in that regard, but it still seems odd that they'd randomly decide to poach worlds from an ally when they have actual enemies on their borders to worry about.
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Anyone thinks the Capellans and the Mariks might build a new alliance of convenience? Right now the MAriks are in full out war with the Empire and if they ally for that purpose they could split the Empire between themselves (the world closer to Terra for the Capellans the rest for the League) with that the Capellans would have more jumping points for a potential invasion at Terra.
Also, the Capellans have one warship left. The Foxes destroyed the second in Shattered Fortress when they escorted Julian back into the suns.
And lastly: the average Republic citizen probably thinks that they might be able to beat the Capellans. They went to war two times and both times they were able to beat back the Capellans though I would bet that the RAF leadership would consider the Capellena Crusades a phyrric victory at best. The main question would be if they prefer the caste system of the Clans over the caste system of the Capellans. The Capellan system in theory offers more social mobility then that of a "pure" Clan once you have become a Capellan citizen. Or am I mistaken? And let's be honest the Republic had it's own version ingrained into their population: serve the state and you gain full citizenship which gives you full privileges (though I would say that a Republic "non-citizen" had also more social mobility then the average non-citizen Capellan). The Combine was for example pleasantly suprised with some of their captured population when they started their Ashigaru initiatives and had more volunteers then expected.
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The Capellan system in theory offers more social mobility then that of a "pure" Clan once you have become a Capellan citizen. Or am I mistaken?
It does. Capellans have the ability to switch to another caste if they meet the qualifications, and in theory can even gain entrance into the nobility (many in the Intelligentsia caste, for instance, are rewarded noble titles and estates for their work). The Clan caste system doesn't tend to afford people the same opportunities (punishments and test-downs notwithstanding).
And let's be honest the Republic had it's own version ingrained into their population: serve the state and you gain full citizenship which gives you full privileges (though I would say that a Republic "non-citizen" had also more social mobility then the average non-citizen Capellan).
And that's actually something the Capellans can offer them that's familiar: becoming a citizen through a period of service to the state, like the Republic also requires, entitles them to free health care and education as well as the opportunity to enter the caste system as something other than a Servitor.
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And that's actually something the Capellans can offer them that's familiar: becoming a citizen through a period of service to the state, like the Republic also requires, entitles them to free health care and education as well as the opportunity to enter the caste system as something other than a Servitor.
The thing is though that free education and health care was something even a "non-citizen" in the Republic had access to according to FM3085. They had to put that in place lest they get sued for it. Would be funny if the Capellans look at that and think "you know that doesnt sound that bad" and adopt it
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Andurien is going to Andurien at the end of the day. It's just their sthick.
The Canopus/Liao split seems to be that Canopus is feeling their military is being abused, the Magestrix feels like the Junior partner to Daoshen who disrespects her because he's dumb. It was surprising but not out of left field or untelegraphed. Plenty of alliances have broken down historically due to lack of respect or one power using the other rather than providing benefit.
Both states are situated to enter into a personal union when Danai takes their respective thrones. I can see the Magestrix wanting to renegotiate their relative power levels before that happens. Timing wise, the use of military force to renegotiate that point is opportunistic with Daoshen distracted towards Terra, and any Riwards issues would force him to split his army. The invasion isn't really the break down of the Alliance (yet), but more the expected outcome of Daoshen not having complete authority over the new state he's putting together.
For the out of left field...
I feel like it showed up in Blood Will Tell, and maybe to a very a hidden degree in Shattered Fortress. My take is that the root cause of the fighting that started in Empire stems from Danai's elevation to heir apparent, which happened after 3147 or 8, and the ensuing court politics of that decision. In the MoC, that official change would have united the two faction that wanted MoC as a full partners with CapCon, and those that did not want a personal union, thus giving the Magistrix a freer hand to take a direct military action.
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I think a lot of the Republic Troops that the Wolves adopted into the Clan will be used eventually to fill out the ranks. There is a reason those former Republic Troops will do so. There gonna want to keep There mechs, there careers. Leaving the Clan and there new warrior caste positions will mean dropping down into the Clans lower castes never to rise again. To most mechwarriors that will be anathema.
We have one tiny snapshot in time, in a shrapnel story I have a lot of issues with, of how wolves are treating ex RAF. If they didn’t aid wolves to win the ilClan trial, the wolves dismiss them and want nothing to do with them.
As for the ones who did help, the wolves were at 42% of pre-Terra strength after absorbing the RAF bondsmen and WiE. And some of those RAF left after the falcons were defeated. I genuinely think RAF troops are a dry well for the wolves.
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We have one tiny snapshot in time, in a shrapnel story I have a lot of issues with, of how wolves are treating ex RAF. If they didn’t aid wolves to win the ilClan trial, the wolves dismiss them and want nothing to do with them.
As for the ones who did help, the wolves were at 42% of pre-Terra strength after absorbing the RAF bondsmen and WiE. And some of those RAF left after the falcons were defeated. I genuinely think RAF troops are a dry well for the wolves.
I think a lot of former RAF troopers who joined the Wolves also left right after they won the IlClan trial. The Cheetahs are probably the most prominent as their leader stated "we only wnated to defeat the Falcons but we don't want to serve the wolves who destroyed our home" And as you mentioned said Shrapnell story the former RAf soldiers HATE those that are still serving the Wolves. That's one powderkeg ready to explode if it isn't diffused soon
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As for the ones who did help, the wolves were at 42% of pre-Terra strength after absorbing the RAF bondsmen and WiE. And some of those RAF left after the falcons were defeated. I genuinely think RAF troops are a dry well for the wolves.
The 42% number has a lot of problems whenever someone tries to use it beyond that day it was said, but that has been covered before.
As far was Republic citizens ranking Wolves vs Capellans . . . IMO why the Capellans will be seen as a worse threat-
Everyone on Terra would be declared a servitor for 10 years, the Clans at least translate people over into directly correlating castes. Mobility in the Clan castes still needs to be explored since by the RecGuides we have seen some movement up and down.
Capellans putting Republic officials on Trial as criminals against the state- Shattered Fortress & Danai POV book covers this, though Danai was not doing it as much as the random Capellan occupation gov't. This means all the Republic paper pushers that survived and every member of the RAF.
Capellans putting anyone working for the Republic of Capellan descent (broad definition, basically born on any world once claimed by the Cappies) on trial as traitors to their nation even if the Cappies had not controlled that world for decades. IIRC this was covered in a Shattered Fortress sidebar. How many people on Terra were from formerly Capellan worlds?
Shattered Fortress had the Capellans putting ex-RAF in re-education labor camps IIRC? While HotW and ilClan did not address it, nor the Cheetahs, any RAF member has to know the Capellans are coming at some point. Alaric has to know they are the next immediate threat- why the Wall was kept up- that will have to be fielded when he stops feeding jumpcores into the machine.
OOC bright spot, it is nice to see the Capellans getting back to their source material.
As far as MoC vs Capellan . . . folks are also forgetting that Ilsa is actually seeing some pushback from a . . . niece? grand-niece? Or was it cousins? Which could all be cynical, them driving public sentiment against being the 'junior' partner in the alliance in a effort to take the throne. To me that section read like a cadet branch being sick of the ruling line being a ruler in absentia and used the time w/o oversight to lay a foundation for a coup.
I know the Republic has gotten plenty of fiction in a dozen different sourcebooks, but I think as an Inner Sphere power that was around for almost 50% of the game's history (BT started in 1984, ROTS was created in 2002, it is now 2023, so Republic was around for 19 of the game's 39 years, almost 20), it probably deserves a sourcebook/housebook where all that information unique to just the Republic could be put down.
Actually we knew it was done . . . 4 or 5 years ago? Whenever that Stone vs Alaric GenCon diorama was released before the original ilClan was put on hold.
BUT . . . yeah, the Republic has had several specific SBs. ER Dark Ages and Wars of the Republic are ones that come specifically to mind. Only at one point in time did they do faction specific sourcebooks, and that was 3060ish. Even at that point only the five houses got their own specific books, the Clans were split in two, Periphery in one book, and minor IS factions combined into another- FRR, CS, WoB, and SLDF. I am leaving off the CM/Force Manual series since it was paused, but that would have also been before the Republic's period. Your best bet would be when the ForceMans get the later era updates.
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I think the Capellans are somehow avoiding the thorny issue of incorperating Republic worlds now that Danai has been given this task. From the books it seems that she has managed rather well. But I agree there are several instance where the Capellans simply take everything and force the former leaders into the servitor caste. Not exactly the most efficient way to rule planets.
On the inter Magistarcy fight: wasn't that the daughter or Erde Naomis youngher sister (and sometimes called "the first Daddy's girl of the Magistracy)? Erde seemed to still play the role of rubberstamper for Ilsa but she stepped down for her own daughter due to her old age
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I think the Capellans are somehow avoiding the thorny issue of incorperating Republic worlds now that Danai has been given this task. From the books it seems that she has managed rather well. But I agree there are several instance where the Capellans simply take everything and force the former leaders into the servitor caste. Not exactly the most efficient way to rule planets.
On the inter Magistarcy fight: wasn't that the daughter or Erde Naomis youngher sister (and sometimes called "the first Daddy's girl of the Magistracy)? Erde seemed to still play the role of rubberstamper for Ilsa but she stepped down for her own daughter due to her old age
Huh? She had one world, and Daoshen said it was to 'teach' her. Daoshen is taking those worlds back and unlike Sun-Tzu during Xin Sheng, he is using the full rigor of standard Capellan practices on Republic and FedSuns worlds that 'were' Capellan. This goes IIRC from the beginning of the MWDA setting, though it took later books to show the full rigor being applied. I think Bonfire of Worlds had a pre-chapter blurb about dealing with the disaffected on Chesterton, but I KNOW Shattered Fortress had a lot of stuff- one sidebar I would swear was written by MadCapellan b/c it sounded like some of the Cappie stereotype satire bits he put up on the forums over the years.
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I think Bonfire of Worlds had a pre-chapter blurb about dealing with the disaffected on Chesterton
Not sure about ABoW, but ilClan actually has a blurb about the aforementioned disaffected on Chesterton.
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Not sure about ABoW, but ilClan actually has a blurb about the aforementioned disaffected on Chesterton.
ilClan or Hour? I had been re-reading Hour, pulling up ilClan to research the Four Horsemen vs TRC/2nd fight, and started re-reading Bonfire . . . I could not easily find that blurb, but it dealt with the Cappie Duke of Chesterton talking about illegal protestors.
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ilClan or Hour? I had been re-reading Hour, pulling up ilClan to research the Four Horsemen vs TRC/2nd fight, and started re-reading Bonfire . . . I could not easily find that blurb, but it dealt with the Cappie Duke of Chesterton talking about illegal protestors.
Yes, that's in ilClan, page 119.
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Sorry for double-posting, but had a thought very much on topic come to me.
I know the Republic has gotten plenty of fiction in a dozen different sourcebooks, but I think as an Inner Sphere power that was around for almost 50% of the game's history (BT started in 1984, ROTS was created in 2002, it is now 2023, so Republic was around for 19 of the game's 39 years, almost 20), it probably deserves a sourcebook/housebook where all that information unique to just the Republic could be put down.
It would be a neat fan-project at the very least.
I would second that honestly: even House Arano got a sourcebook (due to its popularity I’d assume (I did enjoy it myself)).
Not to mention they lasted close to 80 years in game? Technically the FRR was around for less time as an independent faction.
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Not to mention they lasted close to 80 years in game? Technically the FRR was around for less time as an independent faction.
And never did get a sourcebook to themselves . . .
The Arano book was a snapshot- like ER Dark Ages- for a campaign.
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even House Arano got a sourcebook
Wasn't that because HBS donated a ton of the art, and maybe some of the copy.
I would love an 3130-3145 Republic Source book. Something that really showed how everything worked in the High Republic era, but post Stone, and then how it all came apart with the HPG. With the necessary historical background work to make jive. I also acknowledge that this books would suck to write and be a fact checkers nightmare.
The Dark Age Digest is good, but it's only 7-8 pages of "history. It's just thin compared to the meat of a real sourcebook.
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It’s not really that the Republic didn’t get sourcebook page time. I feel like it got a lot for a “new” faction whose existence heralded the longest overall peaceful era since the Star League. It’s not that the Republic didn’t show up in Novels. It was a participate and a protag in some DA novels.
It really just feels weird that we have no boots on ground novels focused on Stone or those around him. The most definitive character in the setting for 80 in universe years until Alaric took Terra and he appears in tiny moments in just barely over half a novel. As what was intended to be the bad guy. And then gets smothered with a pillow after he loses every single battle. That feels off.
A short series, 2-3 books, covering the Jihad, and maybe one during the Capellan crusaders would do wonders.
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I do not think that a sourcebook would generate enough revenue. I hate being the downer on this one.
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Rather than a sourcebook on the Republic, a Campaign book for the IlClan Invasion might be better. Perhaps something like the old campaign books from the FASA Era with battles explained and mechs and mechwarriors listed. To make it complete a listing of the various units involved rather just 'snapshots' of a few.
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It was absolutely out of left field and untelegraphed. The last major update we had, which was ER3145 and FM3145, their alliance was deeper than ever and showing absolutely no signs of strain. It wasn't until Empire Alone that a problem was even mentioned to begin with. But the change in direction behind the scenes between FM3145 and ilClan has seen a lot of shifts like this (looking at you, RasDom). Andurien is at least a little bit more understandable in that regard, but it still seems odd that they'd randomly decide to poach worlds from an ally when they have actual enemies on their borders to worry about.
I don't think it was all that out of left field, we know Daoshen is a arrogant SOB so that eventually aliennating his allies is no suprise. it also really doesn't suprise me that there are people in the MOC fed up with canopian blood being shed in inner sphere wars of imperialism
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Yeah, the real surprise is that it took so long.
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It boils down to pride but also the longer the alliance lasted the more the CapCon looked on the Magistry not as a state but a future acquisition for the Capellan Confederation.
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Deleted. I'm just repeating myself at this point.
Back to the topic for the umpteenth time.
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I do not think that a sourcebook would generate enough revenue. I hate being the downer on this one.
It probably wouldn't, but no reasons we couldn't make a fan project sourcebook, pulling together information from all the different books that touch on Republic stuff.
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I would second that honestly: even House Arano got a sourcebook (due to its popularity I’d assume (I did enjoy it myself)).
Not to mention they lasted close to 80 years in game? Technically the FRR was around for less time as an independent faction.
That's not saying much. As an *independent* faction the FRR was only in existence from 1989, when the 20-Year Update was published, to 1992 when the ComStar SB came out.
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So back on topic of the Republic: let's say the HPG net would have been kept alive after Stone dissapeared and Victor had never uncovered the conspiracy of the Senate to take over the Republic from within. Would the Republic had seen a civil war say 20 years after Stone's dissapearance? After all one of theirs was made Paladin and the Exarch position is a rotating position. So there might have been a Senate friendly Paladin as Exarch soon as well as several knights and knight errants with Senate-ties but perhaps at one point the Republic-loyalists might have found something (or even Comstar might have begun their puppet games again). Kind of a thought game really but the Republic had the same political games as any other faction
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So back on topic of the Republic: let's say the HPG net would have been kept alive after Stone dissapeared and Victor had never uncovered the conspiracy of the Senate to take over the Republic from within. Would the Republic had seen a civil war say 20 years after Stone's dissapearance? After all one of theirs was made Paladin and the Exarch position is a rotating position. So there might have been a Senate friendly Paladin as Exarch soon as well as several knights and knight errants with Senate-ties but perhaps at one point the Republic-loyalists might have found something (or even Comstar might have begun their puppet games again). Kind of a thought game really but the Republic had the same political games as any other faction
The odds feel pretty high that there would at least be a violent political dumpster fire light up in Prefecture X. The Exarch-Paladin-Knight system is pretty easy to corrupt to allow the nobles to get real influence again. Without more lore from TPTB, we don’t know if that system would just magically produce good rulers like clans get or if it’s success was due to Stone having a clear vision and keeping the Paladins true to the original goal
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There is already the example of the "Dark Paladin" Crow who rose through the ranks by dealing with the underworld and also betraying the Republic to the Capellans. While they probably evaluate every knight candiate heavily (they had a rule that a knight who breaks his oath looses the knighthood forever) what if the evaluators are already corrupt / turned? By the time the Senate rebllion took place they already had several knights on their side as well as parts of some RAF line regiments
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There is already the example of the "Dark Paladin" Crow who rose through the ranks by dealing with the underworld and also betraying the Republic to the Capellans. While they probably evaluate every knight candiate heavily (they had a rule that a knight who breaks his oath looses the knighthood forever) what if the evaluators are already corrupt / turned? By the time the Senate rebllion took place they already had several knights on their side as well as parts of some RAF line regiments
Don’t forget corrupting ones that were straight and true when they were raised to Paladin.
I feel like sometime during the “build influence” step of any noble takeover, the plan will be or will look to be stopped, and the Nobles will make that power grab and start that civil war.
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So back on topic of the Republic: let's say the HPG net would have been kept alive after Stone dissapeared and Victor had never uncovered the conspiracy of the Senate to take over the Republic from within. Would the Republic had seen a civil war say 20 years after Stone's dissapearance? After all one of theirs was made Paladin and the Exarch position is a rotating position. So there might have been a Senate friendly Paladin as Exarch soon as well as several knights and knight errants with Senate-ties but perhaps at one point the Republic-loyalists might have found something (or even Comstar might have begun their puppet games again). Kind of a thought game really but the Republic had the same political games as any other faction
I think I'll offer a far more horrible outlook. if the events transpire as you laid out, your butterflies...
in 30 to 40 years, there's going to be a statewide problem. not 20 years, 30 to 40 years.
What WAS the Senate 'takeover'? a Legislature, set up by the founder of the nation to BE a Legislature, actually Legislating and governing?
This was somehow a problem?
The counter-argument being, that resisting it, even idealistically, was the crippling move here, and Levin and co. were acting to undermine the rule of law and replace it with the rule of power and influence, a smaller group, with more concentrated power and fewer checks acting to seize or retain powers beyond their scope, a group that was thoroughly only answerable to one man, and he was absent.
battletech's states ADORE using "Rule of the Elite", but look at how well that rule has actually worked since McKenna overthrew the government that gave him his admiralty.
could anyone SERIOUSLY term the Succession Wars, Steiner-Davion civil war, or Clans to be 'Stability'??
governments always face, and deal with, instability, the severity of which tends to hinge on just how thoroughly concentrated power is and how divorced from conditions those who have that power are.
The contrary view, is that a Senate-led Republic might not be perfection, but it would probably have been able to remain stable and relatively prosperous and safe for the average citizen-particularly in contrast to what actually happened.
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I think any issues for the Republic would have been way down the road. Maybe a hundred years or so. What the biggest threat was alway the outside states looking to conquer worlds.
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I think any issues for the Republic would have been way down the road. Maybe a hundred years or so. What the biggest threat was alway the outside states looking to conquer worlds.
I think you might be correct. Gray Monday did two things;
1. it knocked out the sole and only real blackmail the Republic could use-their monopoly on interstellar communicaiton via comstar. Without that, there's no (Practical or pragmatic) reason for the neighbors NOT to invade.
2. It was a signal to every separatist, every lunatic, every disenfranchised psycho to start their own civil war, because it made other means, such as buying influence or protesting, useless domestically.
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I think you might be correct. Gray Monday did two things;
1. it knocked out the sole and only real blackmail the Republic could use-their monopoly on interstellar communicaiton via comstar. Without that, there's no (Practical or pragmatic) reason for the neighbors NOT to invade.
2. It was a signal to every separatist, every lunatic, every disenfranchised psycho to start their own civil war, because it made other means, such as buying influence or protesting, useless domestically.
Now what I could see though is the rise of the Comguards again. Always in the shadows and perhaps manipulating the Republic to go in the direction Comstar would have wanted. Might have been interesting if the Capellan threat to the Republic had been stopped by White Painted Mechs that dissappear after the fighting over.
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The odds feel pretty high that there would at least be a violent political dumpster fire light up in Prefecture X. The Exarch-Paladin-Knight system is pretty easy to corrupt to allow the nobles to get real influence again. Without more lore from TPTB, we don’t know if that system would just magically produce good rulers like clans get or if it’s success was due to Stone having a clear vision and keeping the Paladins true to the original goal
Ghost Paladin is the unseen check, once again in part why the visiting Knights and Paladins are put up in the hotel.
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Now what I could see though is the rise of the Comguards again. Always in the shadows and perhaps manipulating the Republic to go in the direction Comstar would have wanted. Might have been interesting if the Capellan threat to the Republic had been stopped by White Painted Mechs that dissappear after the fighting over.
The 'Liao White Wings' strike again!
The Senate though wasn't even a full legislative body like for example today's senate in the USA. They handled mostly administrative and regulatory duties like trade and they were staffed by nobles only. And the laws could be vetod by the Exarch who was ulimately the one who decided on anything. From what I understood even the Paladins had more power then the Senate. And I would argue that them promoting candidates through the ranks creates a sort of dependencies that undermines the decision making processes. Especially as it is protrayed in the books like when that one Senator tried to influence Levin's actions in regards to Paladin Sinclair
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The 'Liao White Wings' strike again!
The Senate though wasn't even a full legislative body like for example today's senate in the USA. They handled mostly administrative and regulatory duties like trade and they were staffed by nobles only. And the laws could be vetod by the Exarch who was ulimately the one who decided on anything. From what I understood even the Paladins had more power then the Senate. And I would argue that them promoting candidates through the ranks creates a sort of dependencies that undermines the decision making processes. Especially as it is protrayed in the books like when that one Senator tried to influence Levin's actions in regards to Paladin Sinclair
It's the problem with "Efficient" government-it only works under a tyrant, otherwise what happens is that the 'civil servants' end up sabotaging the state to advance themselves in the name of the State.
That said, if you have ENOUGH groups vying for power, you can get a sort of equilibrium where nothing is done efficiently, it's true-but then again, only those things everyone recognizes MUST be done, actually get done.
IOW Gridlock is a feature, not a bug. No matter whether your legislators are elected, appointed, or inherited, if they can only unify for things that are critical, they're less risky and damaging than a government serving any single over-arching faction at the expense of everyone else.
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It's the problem with "Efficient" government-it only works under a tyrant, otherwise what happens is that the 'civil servants' end up sabotaging the state to advance themselves in the name of the State.
That said, if you have ENOUGH groups vying for power, you can get a sort of equilibrium where nothing is done efficiently, it's true-but then again, only those things everyone recognizes MUST be done, actually get done.
IOW Gridlock is a feature, not a bug. No matter whether your legislators are elected, appointed, or inherited, if they can only unify for things that are critical, they're less risky and damaging than a government serving any single over-arching faction at the expense of everyone else.
That is a very slanted view on governments.
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So back on topic of the Republic: let's say the HPG net would have been kept alive after Stone dissapeared and Victor had never uncovered the conspiracy of the Senate to take over the Republic from within. Would the Republic had seen a civil war say 20 years after Stone's dissapearance? After all one of theirs was made Paladin and the Exarch position is a rotating position. So there might have been a Senate friendly Paladin as Exarch soon as well as several knights and knight errants with Senate-ties but perhaps at one point the Republic-loyalists might have found something (or even Comstar might have begun their puppet games again). Kind of a thought game really but the Republic had the same political games as any other faction
I don't see the Senate Rebellion without the HPGs going down. The Senates political power, should come from an established power base in their home system. With the HPGs cut off, they lost immediate connection to that power base, and the relationship between the Terra and there system was taken over by the Knights, as that was the order jumping around, wielding centralized authority, and building relationships at the planetary level, usurping the power based of individual Senators. If it was only Stone keeping everything together, then without the tied of personal loyalty, things would have unravelled faster. The fact that the Republic kept on chugging along to me indicates that things were more or less stable.
More importantly, the Republic was still being run by its founding generation, without the HPGs going down, the people running the state would have kept to its founding principles, and wouldn't have tried to consolidate power, like we saw in the history of every other interstellar state. There was probably a civil war in the Republic future, but not for a while yet.
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The founding principles of the nation also included ethnic cleansing, I don't think they're unwilling to get dirty if they can convince themselves it's somehow necessary.
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The founding principles of the nation also included ethnic cleansing, I don't think they're unwilling to get dirty if they can convince themselves it's somehow necessary.
Jonah Levin did crush the rebellion, disband the Senate and do a full autocracy speed run.
Levin, Redburn, Stone, and the rest all build a non-feudal state that they thought would standard the test of time and did run (under their stewardship) for a good 80 years. The system would have broke down eventually, but I don't see it happening without a major shock like the HPG blackout, while the founding generation was still alive.
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That is a very slanted view on governments.
It's based on observation, "Unified" governments like the Capellan Confederation are bureaucratic nightmare states or (like teh Combine) a mix of bureaucratic nightmare and militant fascism...but then, that's what you get with something that produces nothing and exists solely to distribute or redistribute what IS produced, and it isn't a NEW observation-just like tehre are few things as permanent as a Temporary State of Emergency (wave, Free Worlds League!), there is a fundamental tendency for people who've been raised to pursue power over others, whose career is centered on seeking power over others, to abuse that power and only be limited by internal rivals who also want power-and aren't really keen on sharing (Lyran Commonwealth, Federated Suns).
by definition, they won't get anything done unless it's something all of that collection of power-seekers agree MUST be done or they'll lose theirs.
it's no good for big projects (unless those big projects are something in the "Must be done or we lose everything we've accumulated") but it's stable when your ruling class can't use the civil service, legal system or military to take what they want from the people they're supposed to be governing on a whim ("Efficient" government-most often accompanied by phrases like "It's for your safety" or "In the name of The People"-see Capcon again for examples).
The concept of the Rule of Law is a limitation on the powers of a King or Noble Class-the idea is that the law applies even those nominally above it. This is only possible when your ruler and your ruling class both must rely on it to protect them...from their peers thus providing some protection for the commoners who would otherwise be chew-toys and expendable ammunition in their power games (or abused en masse because the ruler's bored.)
thus WHY Stone wanted to limit the power of the Nobility-assuming he was as advertised and not something completely different.
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I'm not sure I'd call any state Edit: efficient that spends as much effort on monitoring its own citizens as the CC does.
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I'm not sure I'd call any state that spends as much effort on monitoring its own citizens as the CC does.
That's why I use the Cappies as a negative example-the surveillance state "For your safety!" in "The name of The People!!" is exactly how they got there-the government is unified and terrified of dissent-which is what you get with a power monopoly. the internal factions still tangle, but they aren't significantly different and have more in common with one another, than opposed...and that creates the choice of 'easy solutions' that solve nothing, but make the rulers feel more secure and more powerful, thanks to a structure that separates those who wield power, from the nasty side effects of what they do. (see: Romano Liao).
Stone created a tier in his government that was, for all intents and purposes, free of consequences so long as they toed the line for Devlin Stone, his structure didn't really create or allow for someone else to handle that power freely, so you get things like that dirty traitor paladin who went cappie, and you get a situation where you end up with the same kind of government he claims to abhor as soon as he's not holding the steering wheel.
but that doesn't mean the ideals were wrong, it means that he made a few mistakes-and who out there doesn't?
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Sorry, I meant to say that I was disputing that the CC was an efficient government system.
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Sorry, I meant to say that I was disputing that the CC was an efficient government system.
for those who run it? it sure is! it's just not efficient at...y'know...governing. but it's bang-on for all the things it's actually designed to do-like conducting domestic surveillance, suppressing dissenters, and keeping specific people in power regardless of their actual job performance.
which is kind of the point-'efficient' systems tend to be perverted into only being efficient at the things those at the top of the food chain care about...and efficiently crushing the people below them.
Actual, enlightened, effective governance is incredibly RARE, it almost doesn't happen in nature, because of the basic fundamental problem of "Well humans are running it and they have their own interests".
Thus, why the concept of rule of law has to be constantly worked at, and must be a cultural staple BEFORE it is coded into the actual laws. If the actual population is fine with looking the other way at waste, fraud, abuse, abuse of office, power-mongering, scofflaw officials, or violations of their fellow citizens by said officials, that's what youre going to get even if your actual LAWS reflect a respect for honesty, honor, integrity, lawful conduct and so on.
It's very easy to oppress people who are apathetic or willing to accept some abuses in the name of some abstraction like "it's for your safety" or "It's the Will of The People".
Guess what's been the only thing to survive in most of the worlds in the Republic's space prior to Devlin Stone? I mean, in terms of social evolution here-these people have spent centuries being oppressed by everyone around them...including each other.
Thus, the central challenge of the Republic, and why it failed the way it has. The habits of questioning authority or challenging it, are long gone in the general populace. What's survived occupation after occupation from McKenna to Amaris to Kerensky to the House Lords to the Word of Blake, is submission and apathy. You can't run a successful republic with such a population, they'll revert to obeying tyrants as soon as one crops up.
They won't LIKE it, but they'll DO it.
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We have one tiny snapshot in time, in a shrapnel story I have a lot of issues with, of how wolves are treating ex RAF. If they didn’t aid wolves to win the ilClan trial, the wolves dismiss them and want nothing to do with them.
Going back a few days, which issue is this in?
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Going back a few days, which issue is this in?
I think he means Shrapnel #6, the short story about the founding of the Cheetahs. It shows a lot of dissafected former RAF soldiers who basically have no place now and hate those RAF members who actually fought with the Wolves with a passion. I think it also mentions that a lot of RAF members who fought alongside the Wolves died (perhaps implying they were canon fodder) This is a powderkeg ready to explode unless those former soldiers all leave Terra
In regards to bulletproof ideas do you think the Republic also had a "targeted" version of Clarion call in their arsenal? Like for example the next time the Capellans come invading and are on the verge of seriously winning unleash a targeted Clarion Call on their HPG's to throw them into chaos. the short story in the FM 3145 mentions that Tucker saw so many plans Stone made it made him shiver. Just makes me wonder how many and what contingency plans Stone developed over the decades of his rule.
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I think he means Shrapnel #6, the short story about the founding of the Cheetahs. It shows a lot of dissafected former RAF soldiers who basically have no place now and hate those RAF members who actually fought with the Wolves with a passion. I think it also mentions that a lot of RAF members who fought alongside the Wolves died (perhaps implying they were canon fodder) This is a powderkeg ready to explode unless those former soldiers all leave Terra
In regards to bulletproof ideas do you think the Republic also had a "targeted" version of Clarion call in their arsenal? Like for example the next time the Capellans come invading and are on the verge of seriously winning unleash a targeted Clarion Call on their HPG's to throw them into chaos. the short story in the FM 3145 mentions that Tucker saw so many plans Stone made it made him shiver. Just makes me wonder how many and what contingency plans Stone developed over the decades of his rule.
Considering the limited number of still confirmed to be working HPGs left?
A smaller/more targeted Clarion would have little impact.
But then again the way the authors have been writing things the speed/propagation of information in the novels and sourcebooks only makes sense if there are way more than 20 percent of HPGs still functioning as Pony Express couriers could not handle it.
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Considering the limited number of still confirmed to be working HPGs left?
A smaller/more targeted Clarion would have little impact.
But then again the way the authors have been writing things the speed/propagation of information in the novels and sourcebooks only makes sense if there are way more than 20 percent of HPGs still functioning as Pony Express couriers could not handle it.
The simpler explanation to that one, is that the writers intentionally forgot, because a lot of key plot points wouldn't be possible if they didn't.
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Still have that issue of those "mysterious attackers" who went after the HPGs on Gray Monday itself. As Alaric and his crew start trying build up their "Star League"/ilClan Forces, they still have minor forgotten issue that there someone else maybe lurking out there wanting piece of the action.
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Going back a few days, which issue is this in?
I think he means Shrapnel #6, the short story about the founding of the Cheetahs. It shows a lot of dissafected former RAF soldiers who basically have no place now and hate those RAF members who actually fought with the Wolves with a passion. I think it also mentions that a lot of RAF members who fought alongside the Wolves died (perhaps implying they were canon fodder) This is a powderkeg ready to explode unless those former soldiers all leave Terra
Yeah. The relevant details:
- RAF who didn’t sign up to fight Falcons view those who did as traitors
- Those who did sign up don’t all want to stay with the wolves.
- The Wolves have zero interest in the RAF who wouldn’t fight the falcons with them
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The founding principles of the nation also included ethnic cleansing, I don't think they're unwilling to get dirty if they can convince themselves it's somehow necessary.
Say what now?
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Still have that issue of those "mysterious attackers" who went after the HPGs on Gray Monday itself. As Alaric and his crew start trying build up their "Star League"/ilClan Forces, they still have minor forgotten issue that there someone else maybe lurking out there wanting piece of the action.
Well, those mysterious attackers haven't been referenced in a long time, so they're not relevant to the plot by now and can be ignored. :lipsrsealed:
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Say what now?
I think he's referring to Stone's Relocation Program, which is more of an example of a writer not paying attention to either human nature or history. "mass voluntary movement" doesn't tend to go smoothly nor does it tend to be truly voluntary anywhere EXCEPT fiction. The problem being that there's official canon insisting it WAS voluntary, rather than the obvious 'voluntoldy' that would have to actually happen to avoid major civil chaos, civil disagreement, followed by loss of civility and civil war. The partition of India is a more accurate example of what REALLY happens. (it very nearly broke India as a nation with civil war before the ink was fully dry on the british pull-out.) The other historical example, would be Tito's relocation and ethnic mixing policies, which gave everyone the spectacle of the Yugoslavian Wars of the 1990s.
*Wars that featured Ethnic Cleansing and other atrocities at civilians by their neighbors...
You can interpret the statement as "more hating on the Republic", and be completely valid in doing so, since the whole situation is very "Fasanomiks" in tone-something so contrary to human nature and history that it can ONLY exist as an arbitrary assertion, but it's canon.
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I think he's referring to Stone's Relocation Program, which is more of an example of a writer not paying attention to either human nature or history. "mass voluntary movement" doesn't tend to go smoothly nor does it tend to be truly voluntary anywhere EXCEPT fiction. The problem being that there's official canon insisting it WAS voluntary, rather than the obvious 'voluntoldy' that would have to actually happen to avoid major civil chaos, civil disagreement, followed by loss of civility and civil war. The partition of India is a more accurate example of what REALLY happens. (it very nearly broke India as a nation with civil war before the ink was fully dry on the british pull-out.) The other historical example, would be Tito's relocation and ethnic mixing policies, which gave everyone the spectacle of the Yugoslavian Wars of the 1990s.
*Wars that featured Ethnic Cleansing and other atrocities at civilians by their neighbors...
You can interpret the statement as "more hating on the Republic", and be completely valid in doing so, since the whole situation is very "Fasanomiks" in tone-something so contrary to human nature and history that it can ONLY exist as an arbitrary assertion, but it's canon.
Oh. I was fairly sure that’s what was being referred to. I wanted to hear how that was in any way, shape, or form ethnic cleansing. It read like another person who is leaning on what they heard second or third hand from people who really hate the faction.
And is the relocation program silly and in defiance of in universe logistics? Sure. But it’s far from the only thing that is.
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Oh. I was fairly sure that’s what was being referred to. I wanted to hear how that was in any way, shape, or form ethnic cleansing. It read like another person who is leaning on what they heard second or third hand from people who really hate the faction.
And is the relocation program silly and in defiance of in universe logistics? Sure. But it’s far from the only thing that is.
Indeed, one of the major problem tropes in Battletech, is that the writers often forget the rules the universe claims to obey-like the speed of information when your HPG network's down, or how long it takes to move a message by jumpship chain, or how current that informatoin can actually be, or...
but we put up with it as fans. Which is why I'm more or less neutral on the question raised, you know and I know that the canon assertion is bullshit, but it IS the Canon.
until another writer changes it. There are a lot of things like that-the lackluster 'defense' in Hour of the Wolf, the outcome of said lackluster defense being "Look kids, New Mercenaries!!" instead of...y'know, those soldiers turning to evict the invaders from their home, where their families live.
after all, why would a soldier from an all volunteer army give two shits that while they were deployed fighting the Draconis Combine, a bunch of social-fascist psychopaths conquered their homeworld? There's Moneh out there fighting for someone ELSE!!
no reason to want to defend (or avenge) mom and dad, or sissy and the kids or god help you, your wife and your own kids, just go merc! yeah!! who needs family or friends or anyone you might've joined up to protect, right??
right. Screw them, they can be slaves to the Clans.
which is what is actually happening in the canon. People who don't act like people is a staple of the setting.
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I think he's referring to Stone's Relocation Program, which is more of an example of a writer not paying attention to either human nature or history. "mass voluntary movement" doesn't tend to go smoothly nor does it tend to be truly voluntary anywhere EXCEPT fiction. The problem being that there's official canon insisting it WAS voluntary, rather than the obvious 'voluntoldy' that would have to actually happen to avoid major civil chaos, civil disagreement, followed by loss of civility and civil war. The partition of India is a more accurate example of what REALLY happens. (it very nearly broke India as a nation with civil war before the ink was fully dry on the british pull-out.) The other historical example, would be Tito's relocation and ethnic mixing policies, which gave everyone the spectacle of the Yugoslavian Wars of the 1990s.
From the FM 3085 it was a mixture of both: yes there were a lot of volunteers but Stone also had to send in the military to enforce the quotas. Which in return caused a small form of "rebellion" within the senate and also on the planets. Stone insisted on the relocations stating they would bring benfits in the long run but also had to add a time limit to those relocations. The idea behind it isn't that bad but as you said it tends to ignore human nature. Perhaps a better example are the riots that broke the Starleague in Exile as said groups began to clash with their cultural rivals
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The idea behind it isn't that bad but as you said it tends to ignore human nature.
Ok, but that sentence kind of self-contradicts itself.
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Well, those mysterious attackers haven't been referenced in a long time, so they're not relevant to the plot by now and can be ignored. :lipsrsealed:
Until they show up out of the blue! Plus didn't they deploy unknown designs when they took direct actions?
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I don't recall whether they did or didn't.
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I don't recall whether they did or didn't.
They did. Unknown battlesuit designs featured in the one attack caught on holovid.
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Ok, but that sentence kind of self-contradicts itself.
The sentence is only self-contradictory if you count "results" instead of "Intentions". The Policy was based on good intentions, but it ignored human nature and required Brutal results.
The old conflict between those who think "The ends Justify the Means" versus those who point out "The means you use, decides what Ends you have to Live with (or die from)".
Like certain socioeconomic theories and models that are only popular on college campuses or among activists of a particular type, the Intention is noble and good, the actions you have to take to implement them are...not so well and good to the point of undermining the noble outcome you were hoping to get (this is true of extremes on ALL points of the political map).
Having to send in soldiers to enforce your "Voluntary" relocation policy means it's not voluntary at all, nor will it be evenly implemented (thus paving the way a few generations down the line for your next civil war or brutal economic collapse) Those with influence will be spared the worst of it, those who have the unfortunate combination of having something to take (or lose) and not being influential or powerful enough to fight back (Whether in court, or with guns) successfully will suffer disproportionally.
None of which, is treated as relevant among the theorists pushing the policy if there's no strong opposition in the government, especially if said theorists outright believe that their noble ends justify nearly any means, and that 'by any means necessary' is a valid excuse.
As Comrade Stalin once famously said, "One innocent death is a tragedy, a million innocent deaths is a statistic."
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They did. Unknown battlesuit designs featured in the one attack caught on holovid.
Plus one of the recent sourcebooks even had a name for this group as coined by Victor S-D. I think he called them the Lions because he didn't have a better name. The interesting thing was the Lions were using a symbol of a serpent wrapped around a sword against a red disk.
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Oh. I was fairly sure that’s what was being referred to. I wanted to hear how that was in any way, shape, or form ethnic cleansing. It read like another person who is leaning on what they heard second or third hand from people who really hate the faction.
I'll bite.
The generally-agreed-upon definition of ethnic cleansing (bearing in mind that there is no agreed-upon legal definition) is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. The Resettlement Act of 3082 had "non-insignificant percentages" of the several hundred million people who were relocated by 3085 doing so only under military force. And we already knew well before FM3085 gave us these details that the Republic's intent was to break up the old ethnic/cultural lines in order to bring about an end to the factionalism that led to outbreaks of war. Sure, the Republic got more mileage out of using the carrot than they did the stick, but they did use the stick.
Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.
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I'll bite.
The generally-agreed-upon definition of ethnic cleansing (bearing in mind that there is no agreed-upon legal definition) is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. The Resettlement Act of 3082 had "non-insignificant percentages" of the several hundred million people who were relocated by 3085 doing so only under military force. And we already knew well before FM3085 gave us these details that the Republic's intent was to break up the old ethnic/cultural lines in order to bring about an end to the factionalism that led to outbreaks of war. Sure, the Republic got more mileage out of using the carrot than they did the stick, but they did use the stick.
Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.
It wasn’t to achieve homogeneity.
It also was almost entirely voluntary. Which I admittedly have issue with any of it being involuntary.
It wasn’t to remove an ethnic group from an area.
The goals were literally the opposite of ethnic cleansing. He tried to - for lack of less charged word - integrate the cultures of the sphere near Terra.
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Plus one of the recent sourcebooks even had a name for this group as coined by Victor S-D. I think he called them the Lions because he didn't have a better name. The interesting thing was the Lions were using a symbol of a serpent wrapped around a sword against a red disk.
The secret organization which destabilized the "known galaxy" and then faded into total obscurity without ever capitalizing on their events had insignia?
The generally-agreed-upon definition of ethnic cleansing (bearing in mind that there is no agreed-upon legal definition) is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. The Resettlement Act of 3082 had "non-insignificant percentages" of the several hundred million people who were relocated by 3085 doing so only under military force. And we already knew well before FM3085 gave us these details that the Republic's intent was to break up the old ethnic/cultural lines in order to bring about an end to the factionalism that led to outbreaks of war. Sure, the Republic got more mileage out of using the carrot than they did the stick, but they did use the stick.
Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.
It was a de facto attempt to create a novel culture via a fusion of cultures. By that logic, wouldn't any attempt to create something new be genocide by dint of having to replace what was already there? If an area is supremacist and xenophobic, isn't the attempt to soften those views also genocide?
If you move Combine culture off of planet A to planet B and leave Combine culture on Planet A and you now have it on Planet B, is that genocide?
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It wasn’t to achieve homogeneity.
That's exactly what it was for.
It also was almost entirely voluntary.
"not-insignificant percentages" tells me otherwise. The fact that military force was involved also tells me otherwise.
I did acknowledge that more of it was voluntary than not, but the argument can also be made that just because people went voluntarily doesn't mean that their going wasn't any less mandatory.
It wasn’t to remove an ethnic group from an area.
It was specifically to do that.
The goals were literally the opposite of ethnic cleansing. He tried to - for lack of less charged word - integrate the cultures of the sphere near Terra.
He tried to homogenize them, specifically targeting social and cultural makeup on Republic worlds. And used military force on those who did not willingly relocate. This is literally the definition of ethnic cleansing.
Just look at the Clans in the Republic. They started coalescing and factionalizing because they were feeling increasingly disconnected from their cultural heritage after two generations under Stone's policies, and were often the victims of prejudice and discrimination. Yet more evidence that Stone's policies amounted to ethnic cleansing.
I'll grant that Stone's intentions were good, because I believe they were, but at the end of the day, he used the military on his own citizens to force them to relocate. Call a spade a spade.
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It was a de facto attempt to create a novel culture via a fusion of cultures. By that logic, wouldn't any attempt to create something new be genocide by dint of having to replace what was already there? If an area is supremacist and xenophobic, isn't the attempt to soften those views also genocide?
If you move Combine culture off of planet A to planet B and leave Combine culture on Planet A and you now have it on Planet B, is that genocide?
If said culture doesn't wish to move and you use your military to move them, yes, that would be considered genocide.
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The secret organization which destabilized the "known galaxy" and then faded into total obscurity without ever capitalizing on their events had insignia?
Yes. It is canon though I think it predates the War of Reaving books. A early idea I think had the Clans being behind the events with the symbol representing at least two Clans. The Star Adders and the Blood Spirits. Not sure on the meaning behind the sword. All theory that though.
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Yes. It is canon though I think it predates the War of Reaving books. A early idea I think had the Clans being behind the events with the symbol representing at least two Clans. The Star Adders and the Blood Spirits. Not sure on the meaning behind the sword. All theory that though.
Yep, the insignia first appeared in the "Blood Avatar" novel, where it was even theorized in the book that some name or another could've been an anagram for Zadok, a minor Blood Spirit Bloodname. It was also detailed in the Dark Age Era Digest, where I think the "Lions" term was first used.
The big theory around here pre-WoR were that the Star Adders (the snake coiled around the sword), Blood Spirits (blood drop mentioned in the novel) and Goliath Scorpions (the sun-disk) were all represented on the emblem. Unfortunately, nothing ever came of that fun little nugget.
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I think I do remember the insignia and its place in a woefully common mystery box story (that is, an unsatisfying one). I was just joking about the illogic of the most covert operation in the history of the Inner Sphere being executed by people wearing insignia, an appliance designed to identify someone.
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The secret organization which destabilized the "known galaxy" and then faded into total obscurity without ever capitalizing on their events had insignia?
It was a de facto attempt to create a novel culture via a fusion of cultures. By that logic, wouldn't any attempt to create something new be genocide by dint of having to replace what was already there? If an area is supremacist and xenophobic, isn't the attempt to soften those views also genocide?
If you move Combine culture off of planet A to planet B and leave Combine culture on Planet A and you now have it on Planet B, is that genocide?
Homogeneity (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homogeneity)
Genocide (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/genocide)
If we're going to sling those kind of words around, it's good idea to have the same definition or the discussion goes straight into the toilet after only a few posts.
Voluntary (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/voluntary)
Coercion (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coercion)
Consent (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consent)
Now, generally speaking, if you're using the military to enforce a policy on civilians, that's not going to fall under 'Voluntary' or 'Consent'. That's going to fall under Coercion. If they'll shoot you for saying 'no' then saying 'yes' is meaningless-because that 'yes' is coerced or obtained by coercive means, as in it ain't based on consent, it's based on not wanting to be beaten, imprisoned or executed.
The Relocation "Plan" that requires military force with the express purpose of degrading or erasing ethnic identity? Yah, kids, that one would fall under the dictionary and legal definition of attempted genocide, as well as the definition of Ethnic Cleansing. We generally associate both terms with negative moral motivations, but guess what?
The justifications used historically for such policies have often used weasel words and ad copy to try and sell it as a moral good.
The old saw about good intentions being the road to hell, is rooted in this denial of a basic concept that the means you use, decide the ends you get. It's much easier for armchair philosophers and political activists to insist that the ends justify the means.
Even when the means make those noble ends physically impossible.
HOW you do something DOES decide whether or not it works. this goes as much with people and nations, as it does with automotive mechanics-you can use a band saw with a metal cutting blade to take the head off your motor, but it's going to damage the block and the head, so that's not going to let you reassemble it into a hot-rod without significant amounts of extra work and tooling that might not actually work to repair the damage you did taking the heads off, and 'thumb torque' isn't going to reliably work as well as a properly calibrated torque wrench.
History is FILLED with examples where forced relocations did not result in domestic peace between ethnic subgroups. When people come together on their own, it's far more effective than when men with hard boots and guns show up to force them. again, if you want an example of integration failure, look up what happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990s, and what led up to that-Tito tried to erase ethnic identity by forcing people to integrate at gunpoint, and soon after he died, it fell apart because it was coerced, with the result of some of the nastiest fighting in recent memory, including such euphemisms as "Ethnic Cleansing" in that multisided civil war.
When we look at MWDA, we see exactly the same outcome-once Devlin Stone wasn't there to hold it together, his forced homogenization policy led to a multisided civil war as soon as a crisis popped up that could prevent the authorities from stopping it.
The intention was noble, the outcome predictable, the defect, was a belief that any means to achieve a noble end was acceptable and a denial that the means used, would cripple the intended outcome.
The chief problem with the Republic, was that they let the Idealists set not only the policy, but the execution, without listening to the Pragmatists.
This too, is neither unusual, nor unprecedented. idealists OFTEN screw themselves by 'getting ruthless' when they needed to get sensible.
In the book "Anatomy of Revolution (https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Revolution-Crane-Brinton/dp/0394700449)" the author noted that what happens all too often in failed revolutions, is that the radicals get in charge and force-feed red hot revolutionary ideals to a population who don't WANT it, with a rather predictable pushback. The People wanted a small amount of change, some reform, not to have their lives and existence disrupted and their history and culture treated as invalid, thus, when the mechanism needed to exert strong central control was busted (gray monday/Clarion) the whole thing started to implode with body-counts, coups, and civil war.
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That's exactly what it was for.
I’ll reread the original material again, but my understanding was the goal was to break the factionalism. You don’t need a homogeneous mix across prefecture X to achieve that. I don’t believe homogeneity was the goal. Still, when I have a chance I’ll reread it.
It was specifically to do that.
No. Stone wasn’t trying to remove all Buddhists or all of Combine ancestry from - for example - Dieron. He was trying to get groups like Christians, Leaguers, etc. to move in. And unlike nearly every real world historical example I can find, the goals didn’t involve slaughtering the locals when convenient.
Ethnic cleaning would be what happens when Capellans retake [pick a capellan world] and start executing or kicking out anyone who’d moved there since 3085.
Was Stone’s Relocation well intentioned? Sure. Was it ethical? Debatably. Up until any forced movement of people. Was it ethnic cleansing? No.
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I’ll reread the original material again, but my understanding was the goal was to break the factionalism. You don’t need a homogeneous mix across prefecture X to achieve that. I don’t believe homogeneity was the goal. Still, when I have a chance I’ll reread it.
No. Stone wasn’t trying to remove all Buddhists or all of Combine ancestry from - for example - Dieron. He was trying to get groups like Christians, Leaguers, etc. to move in. And unlike nearly every real world historical example I can find, the goals didn’t involve slaughtering the locals when convenient.
Ethnic cleaning would be what happens when Capellans retake [pick a capellan world] and start executing or kicking out anyone who’d moved there since 3085.
Was Stone’s Relocation well intentioned? Sure. Was it ethical? Debatably. Up until any forced movement of people. Was it ethnic cleansing? No.
Ethics? no, not debatable, when you use soldiers to force unwilling populations to change their habits in hopes of erasing their culture, that's not ethical-the objective might be, but the methodology isn't, and ethics isn't about intent, it's about execution...or in this case, about offering the choice of execution or compliance to force a cultural shift, because soldiers don't get compliance by waving fluffy bunnies unless those bunnies are lethal.
and you can call something voluntary, but if it's enforced by men with guns, it's not voluntary no matter HOW you spin it for the press.
The only 'voluntary' thing about it being "I don't want to be killed by the government".
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part of the problem here, is framing. There's a world of difference between erasing legal barriers and letting people move freely, say, by ending segregation and separate-but-equal policies so that ethnic minorities can move somewhere they can prosper. This is good.
Sending armed troops to, say, rural montana and telling residents "you HAVE to move to Downtown Seattle or San Francisco or we'll shoot you" is not so good.
one of these, is ethical-it leaves the consent to the people being impacted, and one of these is NOT ethical, though both have the same desire to integrate populations and dilute harmful local memes to create a uniform national identity.
The first example, where it really IS voluntary, has positive outcomes, the second, is setting things up for ethnic strife and violence later on, when the government is distracted or overloaded with another crisis.
the argument REALLY rests on whether or not the Republic had to force people to 'voluntarily relocate'. if force had to be used, then it wasn't voluntary.
if one of your decision informers is "The government will kill me if I don't..." then no matter how else you flavor it for the press or for academics later on, it's not voluntary at all.
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Ethics? no, not debatable, when you use soldiers to force unwilling populations to change their habits in hopes of erasing their culture, that's not ethical-the objective might be, but the methodology isn't, and ethics isn't about intent, it's about execution...or in this case, about offering the choice of execution or compliance to force a cultural shift, because soldiers don't get compliance by waving fluffy bunnies unless those bunnies are lethal.
and you can call something voluntary, but if it's enforced by men with guns, it's not voluntary no matter HOW you spin it for the press.
The only 'voluntary' thing about it being "I don't want to be killed by the government".
The initial resettlement was voluntary. That didn’t hit what Stone wanted, so then they offered incentives. When that didn’t hit the finish line, then Stone used force.
So by your example:
1) George Washington goes and asks a bunch of people to move from Maine to Vermont because he doesn’t like interstate fighting. Some move.
2) So then George offers cash and land for anyone who swaps. Suddenly a bunch more move. It’s still not quite as many as he wants.
3) He resorts to forced movement of groups. Shifts a few more percent of the population while not exterminating cultures, killing anyone, or ejecting anyone from the nation entirely.
Steps 1 and 2 are fine. Step 3 is the problem. That’s why I’ve said when he resorted to that, I take issue.
But all of this is missing my original point. The forced relocation doesn’t match the criteria as I can read it for ethnic cleansing.
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But all of this is missing my original point. The forced relocation doesn’t match the criteria as I can read it for ethnic cleansing.
and thus, the reason I posted the dictionary definition.
You used the wrong example. Andrew Jackson, not George Washington.
Washington had to be Persuaded to accept the Presidency, and it was Andy Jackson who managed a forced mass relocation.
look it up.
Here's the thing (editing)...bleh
alright, so first, he asks, then tries to bribe. Now this program failing would be a strong indicator that maybe there's something wrong in or with his plan, but noooo...
He sends in the military and forces it.
Now, what is 'it'?
it's his idealized 'mix' of ethnicities in a given area.
You know, Cleansing an area's population-adjusting the mix to an ideal.
By Force.
and for what purpose? to eliminate a threat to his regime that was not truly evident, using a method not guaranteed to work under the principle of "The Ends Justify The Means"-a principle that tends to backfire unless your objective really is destructive in nature.
Now, given the ethnic groups involved, and the ethnic groups comprising Stone's happy friends, there's a pretty good case that it wouldn't take a LOT of looking to find mass graves-the Cappies weren't dependent on Stone to liberate them and didn't feel that swell of gratitude-and nobody really likes them anyway.
and hey, the military is there with guns to force people to comply and if they don't? what do you think happens? hmmm?
It's a bit like calling the Cherokee relocation 'Voluntary' because they didn't want to be shot.
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You add in a lot that isn’t written down. Make assumptions for worst interpretation. I can make a lot of groups look terrible that way.
And Jackson was trying to eliminate multiple races of people. Stone wasn’t. The people forced to move that died we’re a feature, not a bug. That example doesn’t hold.
It’s probably best to drop this line of conversation. You’ve reached your conclusions, I’ve reached mine. I’m not seeing anything progressing.
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2) So then George offers cash and land for anyone who swaps.
Who's cash and land was taken before George could offer it to someone else?
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Oh. I was fairly sure that’s what was being referred to. I wanted to hear how that was in any way, shape, or form ethnic cleansing. It read like another person who is leaning on what they heard second or third hand from people who really hate the faction.
And is the relocation program silly and in defiance of in universe logistics? Sure. But it’s far from the only thing that is.
The purpose of the program was to erase existing cultural identities, which is ethnic cleansing. If you don't realize that you really don't understand the forms that ethnic cleansing takes. It's not all gas chambers.
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Who's cash and land was taken before George could offer it to someone else?
That IS a good question. You gotta HAVE something, to offer it, and Stone didn't own any factories or business ventures (or real-estate, for that matter...)
quite a bit of Confiscated-from-the WoB, I'd speculate, and assets seized from Word of Blake Collaborators...but is it enough to finance/fund mass migrations?
Imagine you're a local from Shipka (Former Cappie world), which didn't get savagely pounded on by anyone and was still a pretty nice place to live. What's your motivation to move to a bombed out hellpit courtesy of a decades long savage war on the Lyran border in the former Isle of Skye? how big is the bribe you'd have to be offered to upstakes, uproot, and move away from the place your family's lived since the mass exodus from old Earth-we're talking CENTURIES here.
How good does it have to be to make you sell out what's become ancestral lands and move somewhere else?
Hence, why Stone had to send in the jackboots with the guns to make you.
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Who's cash and land was taken before George could offer it to someone else?
I was making up a hypothetical. I couldn’t find any real world examples that didn’t just swerve straight into comical levels of evil.
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The purpose of the program was to erase existing cultural identities, which is ethnic cleansing. If you don't realize that you really don't understand the forms that ethnic cleansing takes. It's not all gas chambers.
No. The purpose was to “eliminate historical animosity.” Not to create a new uniform pax Word culture. The point of Integrating communities isn’t to destroy both cultures. The point is that extended exposure to each other is meant to break down walls and get them to understand each other and stop hating.
This. This basic misunderstanding on your end of the point of the program is why there’s no point to this conversation. I don’t know how many different ways to say it.
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No. The purpose was to “eliminate historical animosity.” Not to create a new uniform pax Word culture. The point of Integrating communities isn’t to destroy both cultures. The point is that extended exposure to each other is meant to break down walls and get them to understand each other and stop hating.
This. This basic misunderstanding on your end of the point of the program is why there’s no point to this conversation. I don’t know how many different ways to say it.
What you are describing is ethnic cleansing 101 right down to same excuses given in numerous instances of real life ethnic cleansings
These people weren't selected at random, they were selected based solely on their ethnicity and they weren't given envelope with a coupon for travel expenses and a deed to a new house and a car in this exciting new place they would relocate SHOULD they choose to do so
What happened is that they were rounded up at gunpoint and forced to leave their homes under threat of death and move to a location which government ordered them to move to with the specific goal to create brand new people that would be more compatible with Stone's brand new nation
Devlin Stone and Republic of Sphere are guilty of ethnic cleansing, plain and simple
I was making up a hypothetical. I couldn’t find any real world examples that didn’t just swerve straight into comical levels of evil.
There is a reason for this
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RotS is (was?) my favorite of the Inner Sphere factions (though that's more for its novelty of being a non-Great House faction in a universe dominated by the Houses than anything intrinsic to the RotS)... But they were guilty of ethnic cleansing.
"Integrating communities" in the way the RotS tried to do requires moving certain populations to somewhere else, and to do that it necessarily means you also have to move certain populations from somewhere else. The point of the program, that the goal was to break up factionalism is irrelevant because the effect was forced moving ethnic groups from areas on the basis of their ethnicity. It doesn't actually matter why you forced ethnicity X from planet Y: Whether it's because Ruler A doesn't like ethnicity X, because Ruler B has a noble goal (as far as forcing innocents by gunpoint can ever be 'noble') of integrating communities and reducing tensions, or if Ruler C moved ethnicity X to his own capital because "I just think they're neat!", in all three cases ethnic cleansing was done.
That, and there's the slight practical issue of whether it's even possible to eliminate historical animosities by forcefully moving people at gunpoint to form cosmopolitan societies. I'm no sociologist, but I'd imagine such an experience would leave a sour taste on my mouth for the government that forced me to move.
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In order as anything relevant was written:
Dark Age: RotS - Old wizkids stuff
Basically, Wizkids toots the horn about how the Resettlement program was awesome and super effective. I'm gonna ignore this. We see that that changed.
FM 3085
pg 18:
Short version of this blurb: Basically, millions took up the resettlement voluntarily for the first two years, but Stone wanted more. Also, something I didn't know, people outside the Republic took the offer up and moved in.
pg 163
tl;dr
- They added official quotas in 3085
- Established the incentives and punishments simultaneously
- Punishment side was hated by basically everyone but Stone, who insisted it was necessary
- Military enforcement only occurred if certain numbers weren't hit. No details on what the numbers were
- Enforcement was to end after 2 years (it didn't)
Lacking: any useful percentages or hard numbers.
Alright, per United Nations, ethnic cleansing:
- "a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas"
- "ethnic cleansing is intended to displace a persecuted population from a given territory"
So I sat down and looked through a bunch of examples of ethnic cleansing and none apply. Mostly because - as I've put - this wasn't ethnic cleansing. There was no dominant ethnic or religious group, the program wasn't intended to expel anyone from the Republic, and wasn't designed to eliminate any ethnic group. What it was would be forced migration. Which is a common technique for ethnic cleansing, but not actually ethnic cleansing. (Actually, super rare for forced migration not to be part of ethnic cleansing.) The best historical analogue to what the Republic did that I can find occurred in 900 BC with the Assyrian Empire's Resettlement Program. Force resettlement of people within the nation to other portions for various reasons. So been a while. Also worth noting, this is pre Geneva conventions and pre Nuremburg trials.
Alright, looked up if population transfer is itself inherently now considered ethnic cleansing... the global opinion on that changed hard during the Nuremburg trials. Went from "sure, this is fine if you aren't killing anyone" to "only okay under very narrow conditions." It might qualify as a crime against humanity under Article 49 of Geneva conventions, except the RotS wasn't really an occupying power and didn't remove anyone from the nation.
The most relevant line I could find was:
"Historical cases reflect a now-foregone belief that population transfer may serve as an option for resolving various types of conflict, within a country or between countries. The agreement of recognized States may provide one criterion for the authorization of the final terms of conflict resolution. However, the cardinal principle of "voluntariness" is seldom satisfied, regardless of the objective of the transfer. For the transfer to comply with human rights standards as developed, prospective transferees must have an option to remain in their homes if they prefer."
So, basically, the first two years of pure volunteer were okay. The incentives would have acceptable without the military enforcement. With the military enforcement, it kicks was absolutely a crime against humanity. Even if for was never used, the relevant part being the option was available. Since there wasn't any attempt to eliminate or expel ethnic groups, it wasn't ethnic cleansing.
And on that note. Let's move on. I spent a lot of time on some depressing ass research.
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EVERY nation has moments in their history where they do something abhorrent. Most bury it in the memory hole, a few remember it because they don't ever want to do that again.
Part of "Learning History" is learning This was an evil thing we never want to do or allow again.
and inevitably, someone will sit there and say "well...we'll just do it better" or worse, "We're not doing THAT because of this niggling detail here..." or "It's for their own good".
The lack of awareness in retrospect looks blind, and it is-because every single case of it, "The Ends Justified the Means" to the people ordering and carrying out the actions, but the ends are never worth the means used.
sometimes the ends were never worthy to begin with. Sometimes, the human costs of the means and the resulting animosity poison the end result.
The Relocations done by the Republic under that policy resulted in the civil war Stone was afraid of that drove that policy. In a sense, it's an object lesson in how good intentions coupled with ruthlessness has evil outcomes.
Some christian philosopher termed it "The Road To Hell is paved with good intentions."
Historically, it can be argued that the Canadians implementing their infamous 'Residential schools for aboriginals' was evil, because evils came from it, but the intention that got it sold through Parliament was a good intention-to integrate native [indigenous] american populations into general Canadian society and prevent some of the horrors of the U.S.'s Reservation system in the wake of Wounded Knee (the one that happened in 1890, not the protest in the 1970s). incidents in the aftermath show this did not do that.
It's worth noticing that we're still dealing with the nasty side-effects of such policies more than a century after they were implemented, just like we in the U.S. are still dealing with the nasty side effects of "Separate but Equal" and segregation more than a century later, and more than fifty years after ending it.
The Means decided the Ends, not the other way around. In the case of the Republic of the Sphere, there was certainly a noble Ends that was being sought, but the means used guaranteed fragmentation and conflict as soon as the government had to devote those resources to a major nation-wide crisis.
The failure was a result of the methods used. The methods used, were a result of misreading the populations involved, and maybe listening a little too closely to idealism.
This has happened before, too many times to count.
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Maybe it's time to change the subject now?
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Yeah. Time to move on.
It’s not like stone or the Republic couldn’t be couldn’t be an awful, unforgivable people. He left plans to intentionally cause environmental disasters as black flag operations to start wars. Ghost Knights faithfully executed them while knowing fully what those plans would do because they told themselves that the ends justified the means.
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Yeah. Time to move on.
It’s not like stone or the Republic couldn’t be couldn’t be an awful, unforgivable people. He left plans to intentionally cause environmental disasters as black flag operations to start wars. Ghost Knights faithfully executed them while knowing fully what those plans would do because they told themselves that the ends justified the means.
That was already ingrained in the Republic. They call it the "Pax Republicana" but Stone himself knew to enforce this peace you need a big stick to bash it on the head of those that try to disturb it. Let's not forget when the Oriente Protectorate began raiding Republic worlds and also executing RAF officers Stone threatend a full blown invasion should those raids not stop. It worked but only because the Republic was percieved as strong. As the HBO series Chernobyl so aptly states: "Our power comes from the perception of our power"
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Maybe it's time to change the subject now?
I dunno, maybe? Here's the problem: how to define the Republic without a listing of their sins and mistakes, and the natural consequences of those mistakes from 3132 onward.
There HAS to be something we can look at, besides those mistakes, and aside from the personality cult of Devlin Stone.
I mean, we're not discussing North Korea here, and even if we were, there must be SOMETHING about it that makes people voluntarily identify with it without the secret police, staatzpolizei or ROM or Shadow Knights or whomever looking over their shoulder.
so, here's a question for the Republic FANS out there...
"What were the VIRTUES of the Republic?"
(I have a few ideas, but I want to hear the hardcore partisans give out theirs.)
Note: It is not my intention to bag on your point of view, I want to LEARN it.
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Since there wasn't any attempt to eliminate or expel ethnic groups, it wasn't ethnic cleansing.
Except for the fact that there were, in fact, (successful) attempts to expel ethnic [ethnic: of or belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent] groups from their homes with military force and relocate them elsewhere, and it wasn't a bug, it was a feature (Stone and Lear were specifically trying to "alter the social and cultural makeup of those worlds"). Just because they weren't being expelled from the nation as a whole doesn't mitigate anything here.
Maybe it's time to change the subject now?
When people are bending over backwards and splitting hairs to whitewash/excuse ethnic cleansing, yeah, it's probably time to change the subject.
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Except for the fact that there were, in fact, (successful) attempts to expel ethnic [ethnic: of or belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent] groups from their homes with military force and relocate them elsewhere, and it wasn't a bug, it was a feature (Stone and Lear were specifically trying to "alter the social and cultural makeup of those worlds"). Just because they weren't being expelled from the nation as a whole doesn't mitigate anything here.
When people are bending over backwards and splitting hairs to whitewash/excuse ethnic cleansing, yeah, it's probably time to change the subject.
I did no such thing. I sat down, looked at the actual relevant global treaties, looked at primary source material. This is what I found. Literally laid out how it qualifies as a crime against humanity.
There’s very little actually written about the resettlement for how important it supposedly was. A single canonshop post is almost more words than the entire primary source material. Any headcanon that fills in how it worked is just that, headcanon.
You can disagree or not, but I’m not whitewashing or excusing anything. It’s time to drop this topic.
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I dunno, maybe? Here's the problem: how to define the Republic without a listing of their sins and mistakes, and the natural consequences of those mistakes from 3132 onward.
There HAS to be something we can look at, besides those mistakes, and aside from the personality cult of Devlin Stone.
I mean, we're not discussing North Korea here, and even if we were, there must be SOMETHING about it that makes people voluntarily identify with it without the secret police, staatzpolizei or ROM or Shadow Knights or whomever looking over their shoulder.
so, here's a question for the Republic FANS out there...
"What were the VIRTUES of the Republic?"
(I have a few ideas, but I want to hear the hardcore partisans give out theirs.)
Note: It is not my intention to bag on your point of view, I want to LEARN it.
It’s hard to answer the question earnestly with such a slanted opening.
“With the eugenics, fascism, nonstop warmongering, civilian massacres, cultural genocide and sometimes just plain old genocide, and Crusader style religions of the [PICK A CLAN], there must be some reason to like them.”
Do you see? It’s hard to talk about the RotS positively and without getting combative because nearly every conversation on here opens with hostility towards them. Your question drips with it.
But, I’ll try to answer the question as I think it was meant. Here’s the sales pitch that got me interested:
- Reading the dark age books a long time ago before I really grasped the setting, the RAF came off as the only group fighting for something more than just “more power.”
- It’s the only nation where the leader isn’t necessarily a soldier, of noble blood, or both. we only saw soldiers because we only had three Exarchs, but the mechanisms were in place for something else
- Funny enough, for all BLP hated RotS, and I think Surrender Your Dreams was meant to character assassinate Stone, it made me really like the character and faction. Suddenly the novels went from RotS was meant to be the clear cut good guys to RotS had admiral public goals (peace, end succession wars) and was willing to do anything to behind the scenes achieve them. It tarnished the RotS and made it fit the setting more. Though it made them much worse by real world moral evaluations.
- RISC tech is hilariously, gloriously stupid and the setting should have had more of it.
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“With the eugenics, fascism, nonstop warmongering, civilian massacres, cultural genocide and sometimes just plain old genocide, and Crusader style religions of the [PICK A CLAN], there must be some reason to like them.”
You're kind of diluting Cannonshop's statement by paraphrasing what he actually said ("there must be SOMETHING about it that makes people voluntarily identify with it without the secret police, staatzpolizei or ROM or Shadow Knights or whomever looking over their shoulder."). He didn't say "there must be a reason to like them", he said "there must be something that makes people identify with them".
I love the Clans. I love the Capellans. I don't identify with either of them (or with any faction in BattleTech, frankly), and I certainly wouldn't support them IRL. But as far as fictional entities go? I enjoy the heck outta them, because it's okay to enjoy The Bad Guys (or, more accurately in this case, the Neither-Good-Nor-Bad-But-Problematic-In-Some Aspects Guys) in fiction.
BattleTech fandom, more than any other I've ever seen, has plenty of folks that feel the need to personally identify with (and justify through their own moral lens the actions of) their chosen faction(s), and it's so bizarre to me. BattleTech is all about shades of grey, and NO faction exists without blood on their hands here.
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You're kind of diluting Cannonshop's statement by paraphrasing what he actually said ("there must be SOMETHING about it that makes people voluntarily identify with it without the secret police, staatzpolizei or ROM or Shadow Knights or whomever looking over their shoulder."). He didn't say "there must be a reason to like them", he said "there must be something that makes people identify with them".
I love the Clans. I love the Capellans. I don't identify with either of them (or with any faction in BattleTech, frankly), and I certainly wouldn't support them IRL. But as far as fictional entities go? I enjoy the heck outta them, because it's okay to enjoy The Bad Guys (or, more accurately in this case, the Neither-Good-Nor-Bad-But-Problematic-In-Some Aspects Guys) in fiction.
BattleTech fandom, more than any other I've ever seen, has plenty of folks that feel the need to personally identify with (and justify through their own moral lens the actions of) their chosen faction(s), and it's so bizarre to me. BattleTech is all about shades of grey, and NO faction exists without blood on their hands here.
I don’t excuse anyone because I identify with their faction. I don’t identify with any Battletech faction. Just root for a few.
Though you are right that I lost that distinction in my rephrasing.
I enjoy the republic as a fictional faction, but I wouldn’t want to live there. A mostly unaccountable dictator elected by a self selecting group of elites that are in practice all military? No thanks. Though there are very few places in the sphere that I would want to live. I could probably find a couple FWL worlds, maybe.
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I don’t excuse anyone because I identify with their faction. I don’t identify with any Battletech faction. Just root for a few.
Though you are right that I lost that distinction in my rephrasing.
I enjoy the republic as a fictional faction, but I wouldn’t want to live there. A mostly unaccountable dictator elected by a self selecting group of elites that are in practice all military? No thanks. Though there are very few places in the sphere that I would want to live. I could probably find a couple FWL worlds, maybe.
Oh, don't get me wrong, Church. I wasn't saying you were doing that yourself. But it was something CS brought up in his question, and I thought it should at least be addressed.
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Oh, don't get me wrong, Church. I wasn't saying you were doing that yourself. But it was something CS brought up in his question, and I thought it should at least be addressed.
Ah. Okay. Misread your comment then. Cheers.
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Ah. Okay. Misread your comment then. Cheers.
No worries at all! We don't agree on everything, but we very solidly agree on THIS point, and I'm curious to see where CS is going with this because it has that "why do people like factions that do bad stuff" flavor when EVERY faction has some red in their ledger.
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If we're going to sling those kind of words around, it's good idea to have the same definition or the discussion goes straight into the toilet after only a few posts.
I see it got there anyway. Some of your best work.
Does anyone who's not the same four people want to jump in and talk general Republic stuff? Preferably someone in the Republic thread who doesn't hate the Republic?
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The irony of the 'secret' attacks during MWDA first attack being against the Republic Remnant?
Who held true to the 'ideals' of the Republic more- the Fortress or the Remnant?
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Remember that post on the Battletech forums may or may not be in character. The key is to use temperance with it. Hence a multifaceted joke of old:
[OOC]Politics.
We are talking about the Free Worlds League afterall.[/OOC]
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I see it got there anyway. Some of your best work.
Does anyone who's not the same four people want to jump in and talk general Republic stuff? Preferably someone in the Republic thread who doesn't hate the Republic?
kinda what I'm asking-we know what the defects are, they've been ground into the dirt endlessly. I want to see what you're supposed to get in exchange.
In part, because (and I'm guilty as anyone here of this) We're not seeing or presenting a balanced view except from (maybe) Church., who likes the Republic despite its many flaws, and is actually willing to stand up and say so without weasel-words.
the hypocrisy isn't the point-every state has it, both in fiction, and in reality...
Lemme clarify my question...
What are the day to day ideals of the Republic?
what is there (not Devlin Stone, because he built a nation here) that you can imagine a normal citizen clinging to in patriotic sentiment...as in, clinging to the ideal of the Republic?
What gets the shop-keep or the builder or the mechanic to say, "This is my Nation and I love it-I may not love everything my government does, but I love my nation!"
I mean, that's really the thing for me-it has all the ingredients to HAVE THAT, not talking about chiffon-white reputations here, but what about it, should reach into the heart of Jane and John Doe in nowhereville, Republic Space, and make them excited to be Republic?
Not talking propaganda, either, because that circles back to national hypocrisy. I want to see the in practice values that makes things LIKE the Republic Remnant (Identified below)
The irony of the 'secret' attacks during MWDA first attack being against the Republic Remnant?
Who held true to the 'ideals' of the Republic more- the Fortress or the Remnant?
Happen. I'm speculating that it must exist. Cappies had Xin Sheng-a nationalist fervor, Lyrans have mercantile and industrial strength and a uniform germanic culture, Dracs have their pseudo-Bushido and anime-trope ways, Feddies have...whatever it is the Feddies have, Free worlders have their Freedoms.
WHAT IS THE SPIRIT of THE REPUBLIC?
I speculate it MUST exist. None of the Factions in the MWDA set were majority, or represented the majority where they were, they were just the ****** with guns who were keen to use them on...well...someone.
But nations are not made of militant political factions, they're made of ordinary people, and revolutionary nations are made of ordinary people who've latched on to some aspect of their new state's existence.
Rasalhague fought for freedom for centuries...
To the common man, what does The Republic Stand For and why is it worth supporting?
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I see it got there anyway. Some of your best work.
Does anyone who's not the same four people want to jump in and talk general Republic stuff? Preferably someone in the Republic thread who doesn't hate the Republic?
I would but it is all just constant crap complaining about the Republic it seems. Not sure i've ever seen any other faction get attacked as much as RotS.
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I would but it is all just constant crap complaining about the Republic it seems. Not sure i've ever seen any other faction get attacked as much as RotS.
Kinda why I'm trying to shift the tone, because I was NOT being fair, and frankly, I don't think the RoTS got the ending it properly deserved. That 'ending' should've been the 'Beginning' of their story-a battle to resurrect and free their homeland from an oppressive invader is a HELL of a good story-better than "They lost the capital so everyone quit and went merc or joined the invaders".
even if they lose, it should be exciting and on some level noble, not the putrid and paltry collapse they got after spending that long in publication as part of the setting. There are players today, who grew up on MWDA and that storyline, and they have kids who may be learning the game and the setting.
as someone pointed out, it's been half the existence OF the setting. There should be more than the dirt and some hypocrisy to it.
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Not sure i've ever seen any other faction get attacked as much as RotS.
I honestly think it's less about the faction itself and more the resentment a lot of the old guard had towards MWDA in general and everything that came along with it (the dearth of 'Mechs, the time jump, the HeroClix game it's built from as opposed to being "real" BattleTech, Devlin Stone being a "nobody", etc.), and the Republic stands as a convenient effigy to burn for that resentment. Fortunately, now that BattleTech has "caught up" to MWDA, a lot of that has died off.
To the common man, what does The Republic Stand For and why is it worth supporting?
That's easy: the Republic represents building a bright new future in the wake of the one of the most destructive conflicts in the history of BT-mankind, and working to prevent such a conflict from ever happening again. The spirit of the Republic, more than anything, appears to be hope for a better future. (Which the rest of the Inner Sphere stomped into oblivion the first chance they got because, well, it's BattleTech.)
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The Republic sucked the oxygen out of a well understood hierarchy and set itself as the center of the Battletech universe for a bit.
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To prevent a misreading of what I am saying, the Clan invasion actually reinforced the fictional setting somewhat while adding a new spice to the universe and mixing things up. By contrast the Republic appeared out of nowhere as the center of Battletech which had a time skip. The Republic was handed pivotal worlds like Tikonov and Irian without a second thought. It also was centered on Terra.
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the Clan invasion actually reinforced the fictional setting somewhat while adding a new spice to the universe and mixing things up.
The Republic did the exact same things.
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To prevent a misreading of what I am saying, the Clan invasion actually reinforced the fictional setting somewhat while adding a new spice to the universe and mixing things up. By contrast the Republic appeared out of nowhere as the center of Battletech which had a time skip. The Republic was handed pivotal worlds like Tikonov and Irian without a second thought. It also was centered on Terra.
The reason they got those massive production centers is because the Republic was going to scale back war production and would not be selling to private individuals. Artificially lowering the demand where factories are producing below capacity means losing what used to be fought over does not matter as much.
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As i was saying, the Republic gets attacked more.
Apparently it is bad when it/its origin (MWDA) made things but not when something else does the same things.
The Clans were introduced with a practical time jump and essentially took over large part of the Inner Sphere with effort equal to being handed it.
(And the Capellans also got Tikonov back late during the FedCom Civil War with no effort whatsoever...)
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Apparently it is bad when it/its origin (MWDA) made things but not when something else does the same things.
This is an oversimplification. It isn't just the time jump that didn't sit well with some people. It's the fact that none of this even happened in "BattleTech", which was pretty much dead in the water at the time, but a separate game entirely. It's the fact that in this game and in this setting, we were told that legitimate BattleTechs were rare again and folks were running around doing battle with forklifts and dirt-tillers. It's the fact that we got a brand-new MAJOR faction created off-screen wholesale, led by a "nobody" who was somehow able to get the rest of the Inner Sphere to go along with his ideas. A lot of BattleTech fans don't do well with change as it is, but MWDA and the Republic certainly stand as the most egregious examples of it; it took years (and BattleTech-the-game catching up to it and "filling in the gaps") for this to be rectified. The Clan invasion, conversely, unfolded in realtime publication, and there are still people in the fandom that resent their existence decades later. The Republic, just like the Clans, will always represent unwanted change in the game to some people.
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I understand why people who were around when Wizkids introduced the RotS would be salty. It looked like everything they’d gotten used to was wiped unceremoniously and the Republic was so front and center that it makes a pretty legit focus for salt. The clans, for all they suddenly dominated the narrative for a long time, didn’t seem to erase any other major faction. FRR even survived in a reduced form for along time.
So I understand it at the time. But we are nearly twenty years past that and the salt isn’t fading. It makes anyone who came to the setting after that, or who didn’t get mad at that, have a hard time talking about RotS at all.
edit:
See, relevantly, that one person answered canonshop’s question and the rest devolved into posts about disliking the faction and why people do.
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But we are nearly twenty years past that and the salt isn’t fading.
Speaking as someone who was participating here (and on the original forums) back when MWDA was in full swing, it absolutely has faded.
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Bear in mind also that Battletech and some of its sibling products like Shadowrun have an impressive history, for not only surviving, but producing products in the forms of various mediums that do sell. In a local Borders store I went to when was growing up, there were always a good number of Battletech sourcebooks on shelves for sale in addition to a strong row of novels. This was not a hobby shop but a mainstream bookstore. By contrast there is an exorbitant amount of IP that ends up on the shelves of houses that you will never know existed unless you so know. Battletech has had the Mechwarrior series of games, a card game, a cartoon series, toys, alternative game formats and much more. This was before the introduction of what was disparagingly called clickytech. Keep in mind also that characters like Adam Steiner had low reputations because of the cartoon.
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In limpid terms, critics did not think that the oompah fit the ambiance.
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Speaking as someone who was participating here (and on the original forums) back when MWDA was in full swing, it absolutely has faded.
Lol, I will agree with that . . . making a claim that the Joust was the best tank available in Total War once RS Dark Ages came out was . . . incendiary.
Anyone, surprised no one wanted to weigh in on if the Remnant or Fortress were the true successors to the Republic.
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That's one of those questions that's genuinely difficult to answer because it depends on what criteria you're using.
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removed
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I don't think it's possible to get a complete picture of the Republic - or, for that matter, of the unfolding story of the ilClan - without taking the question of Terran nationalism into account.
For the most part, ComStar had been fairly successful in cultivating an introspective focus within the Sol system throughout the worst of the Succession Wars. The peoples of Terra had not necessarily forgotten the days of the Terran Hegemony and of the Star League; but with Kerensky and the bulk of the SLDF gone, plus the Order (for all its faults) keeping them at a remove from the worst of the ongoing crisis unfolding across the Inner Sphere, Terrans were mostly convinced to turn their focus inward.
Fast forward to the Clan Invasion, and especially to the Battle of Tukayyid. Once it became clear that the "children of Kerensky" were set on conquering Terra, suddenly the "splendid isolation" offered by ComStar was no longer viable - not least since the Order had itself offered to turn the Sol system over to the invaders in the event of a Clan victory at Tukayyid. Relying on the same House Lords which had feasted on the Hegemony's corpse to now keep the Clans at bay hardly sat well either.
Thus, when the Word of Blake offered the Terrans the chance to get "back in the game", so to speak, they found a receptive audience - to the point that a large portion of the forces opposed by Stone's Coalition saw themselves as fighting not for Blakism, but rather for a new Terran Hegemony. Which, despite the Blakists' literal use of "scorched Earth" tactics during the fall of Terra souring the Terrans' opinion on the Word of Blake (to put it mildly), was a concept which had not gone away.
But of course, the signatories of the Republic Formation Treaty were in no mood to reward Terran nationalism - to include both Devlin Stone and David Lear themselves. So, rather than trying to put this genie back in its bottle, the goal was to channel and to detoxify the underlying impulse (of guaranteeing Terra's security) driving this nationalist movement into a more politically acceptable direction, through the creation of a new society in which Terran, Inner Sphere, and Clan residents could buy into equally: that of the Republic of the Sphere.
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Which makes for a pressing concern for Alaric to address, now that he has succeeded in claiming Terra for ilClan Wolf.
By choosing to rebuild Unity City, he's not only sending a message to the Inner Sphere at large (well, as much of it as is war what has happened, given the ongoing effects of the Blackout and of the Fortress walls around the Sol system), but also to the people of Terra itself.
And yet, if he is serious about keeping the Capellans at bay in the near term, or about building a new Star League in the longer term, he has to do a lot better than merely be the least-worst remaining option. He has to offer the Terran survivors of the Republic something more - just as Stone in his day offered Terra something better than the Word of Blake Protectorate.
Or, if Alaric himself is neither wiling nor able to follow through on this, then who (if anyone) might be the one to do this in his place?
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Or, if Alaric himself is neither wiling nor able to follow through on this, then who (if anyone) might be the one to do this in his place?
If we go the typical clan way usually he or her who puts Alaric's head on a pike. After all if Alaric intends to keep the Clan way alive he is under the same scrutiny as any other who holds a leadership position: screw up royally and face a trial of position.
And as you mentioned Terran nationalism is really strong. Let's just remember the names of the first empires: the TERRAN Alliance and the TERRAN Hegemony. Terra was the center and especially the Camerons took every action to keep it that way. Comstar muzzled that beast for a while (though one FM suggestes that Comstar might have lost control at one point past Tukayyid thanks to the reforms initiated by Focht and Mori) and the Word took advantage of it as they often used Terran businessmen to entice Chaos March worlds into their Protectorate. Plus punishing the Houses played well to those who still held deep grudges. Stone tried a a slightly different approach with the Republic as anchor of peace without a real pan state alliance (not to mention being in the center makes for an uncomfortable position should war break out). Alaric has a difficult starting position: Terra alone, a battered military and at least two realms who are chomping at the bit to kick his Wolves to the curb (or rather are already doing that). This is not the original Terran Hegemony who had a huge head start in terms of technology and organization.
Anyway in terms of the ideas of the Republic: one of the main ones was the reduction of the nobles influence over the state. Would that have been better if they had not create the senate but rather a real parliament where anyone could get elected in (one MP from every planet who has to campaign on said planet)? Or would that have created bigger problems once the nobles begin to grumble over their loss of power and influence?
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I think the Senate was a concession to get noble support so Stone didn’t immediately have a large bloc of influential people on Terra undermining him
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I think the Senate was a concession to get noble support so Stone didn’t immediately have a large bloc of influential people on Terra undermining him
That's exactly what it was, per FM3085.
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Huh. Depressing thought:
Per MUL, we are seeing a pretty logical dispersion of RAF designs. Wolves, nuJags, Merc, FWL, and FedSuns all picking up various pieces of RAF hardware. Nothing really extinct yet.
So that’s the question. With the known factory losses, what RAF designs are even going to survive? I don’t see Wolves just continuing RAF design production long term, not sure I see then continuing much short term since they have about 4000 destroyed mechs to salvage and only about 1000 to 1200 mechjocks.
So at a quick glance, I saw the following for mech factory worlds pumping RotS designs:
- Terra: Zero reason wolves wouldn’t convert Terran factories to full clanSpec, pumping out wolf designs. I believe they also brought at least one factory worth of parts with for the Ryoken III Omnis.
- Caph: Falcons hold it by Dec 51’, but it didn’t seem like in the sort of numbers to renovate yet. Still, can’t see Caph not falling to Wolfes.
- Northwind: Still independent by end of 3151, unsure of the future. Relevant to this question though, they don’t seem to make any of the iconic RAF mechs.
So, do any RAF designs escape extinction? We do have the ares now built in FWL, so that’s one.
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So that’s the question. With the known factory losses, what RAF designs are even going to survive? I don’t see Wolves just continuing RAF design production long term, not sure I see then continuing much short term since they have about 4000 destroyed mechs to salvage and only about 1000 to 1200 mechjocks.
The 42% is a snapshot, and analysis shows where the losses in personnel would be- not mechs btw.
But I would expect the Doloire as a Omni to hang around . . . and perhaps some of the mixed tech like the Lament.
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Something to consider: the Sea Foxes might get their hands on some of those designs and start up their own production. There's certainly been a lot of precedent set for that sort of thing happening.
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The 42% is a snapshot, and analysis shows where the losses in personnel would be- not mechs btw.
But I would expect the Doloire as a Omni to hang around . . . and perhaps some of the mixed tech like the Lament.
Right. And the only way HotW makes any sense as a story is if 42% is the ones left alive. Not available fighting strength post trial that will rapidly climb in two months of rebuilding mechs.
Wolves having more left alive makes no sense when their last fight was a mix of giant inferno and falcons specifically murdering fallen wolves if they could. Add in that they didn’t have dispossessed before the trial started. Every wolf warrior alive and able to sit upright was in the ilclan trial and they still had spare mechs at the trial
And for reference: redemption rites cites similar losses as what’s in ilclan for dragoons and those were treated as fatalities, not just casualties. The ilclan trial wasn’t just murder on equipment, it was a bloodbath for the warriors.
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Something to consider: the Sea Foxes might get their hands on some of those designs and start up their own production. There's certainly been a lot of precedent set for that sort of thing happening.
Or sell the pure-IS designs to other parties. Wouldn't surprise me if they decided that it was better to make some quick cash on the schematics of the Kheper or Uraeus instead of building their own.
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Right. And the only way HotW makes any sense as a story is if 42% is the ones left alive. Not available fighting strength post trial that will rapidly climb in two months of rebuilding mechs.
It is been covered before, but just throwing out 42% is almost worthless- especially when it does NOT distinguish between personnel and materials. Dragoons' losses were also exacerbated by retreating in the face of the enemy with their chain of command wrecked. But that is for another topic if you want to start it up again.
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It is been covered before, but just throwing out 42% is almost worthless- especially when it does NOT distinguish between personnel and materials. Dragoons' losses were also exacerbated by retreating in the face of the enemy with their chain of command wrecked. But that is for another topic if you want to start it up again.
EDIT: deleted. I'm just gonna drive the thread off topic if I leave it
But the specific number doesn’t matter to my point and an argument here is a distraction. He has an excess of full clanSpec machines to salvage to equip his forces. So I don’t see him keeping RAF production lines for any longer than it takes to refit them. Though it wouldn’t be all at once.
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EDIT: deleted. I'm just gonna drive the thread off topic if I leave it
But the specific number doesn’t matter to my point and an argument here is a distraction. He has an excess of full clanSpec machines to salvage to equip his forces. So I don’t see him keeping RAF production lines for any longer than it takes to refit them. Though it wouldn’t be all at once.
let's be more honest here: he'd junk anything that didn't fit with Wolf Doctrine and repurpose the lines to produce designs his warriors and techs were already familiar with as soon as physically possible, with a preference for ERASING anything with distinctively Republic reputation or feel.
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let's be more honest here: he'd junk anything that didn't fit with Wolf Doctrine and repurpose the lines to produce designs his warriors and techs were already familiar with as soon as physically possible, with a preference for ERASING anything with distinctively Republic reputation or feel.
Really? Look at the Cs that were produced in the Empire . . . which is also why I said the mixed tech designs like Doloire and Lament were probably good.
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trying to apply logic to mech production is absolutely pointless because it's NOT logical and NEVER has been.
If mech production was logical the wolves (and EVERYONE ELSE) would have a half dozen distinct omnimechs making up their entire touman to allow for streamlined logistics
but that's not A: Fun, B: something that would sell TROs.
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In terms of RAf designs: the Ares tripods certainly seem to stick around. The League and the Suns have at least some of them and it seems as if they were building them too.
I would assume that Mechs like the Doloire and the Malice will be kept around. Both Mechs have at least some Clan tech build in them (the Malice has one variant that is mixed)
And at least in the short term the Wolves will have no choice but to build those RAF designs. I can't imagine that a factory for say the Lament can simply be converted to build a Mech like the Warwolf. Just hink about the forms and chassis molds you need to build certain Mechs. And with the Empire getting slowly swallowed by the League they have more or less lost access to their iconic designs (unless they brought everything needed for production with them). In a way it is similar to Amaris who wanted new iconic Mechs to replace the Hegemony Mechs but then had to rely on them for his war
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In terms of RAf designs: the Ares tripods certainly seem to stick around. The League and the Suns have at least some of them and it seems as if they were building them too.
I would assume that Mechs like the Doloire and the Malice will be kept around. Both Mechs have at least some Clan tech build in them (the Malice has one variant that is mixed)
And at least in the short term the Wolves will have no choice but to build those RAF designs. I can't imagine that a factory for say the Lament can simply be converted to build a Mech like the Warwolf. Just hink about the forms and chassis molds you need to build certain Mechs. And with the Empire getting slowly swallowed by the League they have more or less lost access to their iconic designs (unless they brought everything needed for production with them). In a way it is similar to Amaris who wanted new iconic Mechs to replace the Hegemony Mechs but then had to rely on them for his war
In universe, malice was made on galatea and a Capellan world, so it’s fine. Doloire is a super solid mech by any tech base and fast enough for its size, so Colt’s right that wolves would probably preserve that line for at least a while. Lament and gallant are from Caph, so lower priority to convert if wolves actually take and hold it (they should). So it’s not like the designs would disappear overnight. Still, Alaric seems to want the clanniest of clan leagues. I don’t see him not eventually converting everything to wolf models.
Yeah, the Empire had a bunch of C refits. All of those are designs that date back to the Star league. Unless I missed one, anything newer than 2780 was converted to wolf stuff (or ignored in fluff). Out of universe, that’s because those are the classic SW designs, but in universe it sticks with Alaric’s obsession with symbols and an inability to accept anything the sphere has done since the exodus as legitimate. That paints a picture where Alaric will convert RAF production once he has the luxury.
Out of universe, I’m a bit worried the RAF designs will get treated like the RotS. As expendable and left to die off unceremoniously so other factions get new toys. TPTB have said that the focus on models and mechs is to work on ones available the longest first, then work down (which is justified and logical). RotS was available for a single era thanks to its dumpstering. There’s legit reason to think RAF mechs just won’t be a priority until it’s considered not worth it to preserve them. That said, we saw a tiny smidge of WoB designs come back in RecGuides, so even dead designs from dead factions could be resurrected.
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hope not, I love the look and abilities of the Lament and have thought about getting another one from IWM. The Scapha too.
I think we might see the designs preserved if we go Royals/SLDF Army as a tiered paradigm.
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Weren't the factories for those designs handed over to the Sea Foxes?
They will likely keep making & selling them as long as there a market.
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In universe, malice was made on galatea and a Capellan world, so it’s fine. Doloire is a super solid mech by any tech base and fast enough for its size, so Colt’s right that wolves would probably preserve that line for at least a while. Lament and gallant are from Caph, so lower priority to convert if wolves actually take and hold it (they should). So it’s not like the designs would disappear overnight. Still, Alaric seems to want the clanniest of clan leagues. I don’t see him not eventually converting everything to wolf models.
The Gallant was manufactured on Terra in the Skobel Mechworks. Unless they relocated that to another planet.
If the Foxes hold all those factories though where exactly are the Wolves getting their replacements from? The only "homegrown" source would be their Empire but from what I understood is that they stopped communicating with them after the IlClan trial. Or are the Foxes now the trusted logistican for thew rebuilding phase?
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Both the Lament and the Gallant were made on Terra, actually. If that changed, I can't imagine where that would've happened (or why).
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Both the Lament and the Gallant were made on Terra, actually. If that changed, I can't imagine where that would've happened (or why).
Nah no changes. I just made a mistake on my end. Checked Sarna, saw Caph as the HQ, scrolled quick to parts made and missed that they were from a Terra facility.
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Weren't the factories for those designs handed over to the Sea Foxes?
They will likely keep making & selling them as long as there a market.
Where was this? Like what book? If that’s the case then I’ve got a bit of reading to do
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I would like to know that too. from what I understood is that Alaric bargained with the Foxes for transport services and in exchange the Foxes got pretty much a huge pick on all that salvage on Terra (the Shrapnell story in Issue #6) Though it might make sense considering that the Wolves left no garrisons on the planets they conquered and some of them like Devil's Ropck have valuable factories
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The Foxes could take the former RAF designs and sell them off to the highest bidder. Possibly even sell the factories off when the Wolves close them down to start building Omnimechs. Or the other possibility is they move those factories to worlds the Foxes now control.
Another option is that any Republic Remnants could build there own RAF designs, possibly building new factories where ever they end up.
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I would like to know that too. from what I understood is that Alaric bargained with the Foxes for transport services and in exchange the Foxes got pretty much a huge pick on all that salvage on Terra (the Shrapnell story in Issue #6) Though it might make sense considering that the Wolves left no garrisons on the planets they conquered and some of them like Devil's Ropck have valuable factories
It is mostly One Door Closes from Shrapnell Issue #6, it seems that the Sea Foxes are coordinating the salvage/repair on Terra, to do this correctly would also require control of the associated factories.
I think it was also said in the Hour of the Wolf AMA that the Republic designs would be adopted by surviving powers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGsZuBB4vvM
And here is a hint about "And of course the CSF merchants could viably have access to certain percentages of output to sell through their various markets to help generate revenue to fund the new SL".
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=74132.msg1738908#msg1738908
Then there is the issue that CSF are likely the only ones with the means to feed those Terran factories and distribute the products.
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Another option is that any Republic Remnants could build there own RAF designs, possibly building new factories where ever they end up.
A major question would be if TPTB will bother to leave any Republic Remnants. Off-hand there's reasonably large number of RotS forces unaccounted for.
Personally i'm afraid they'll just get turned to mercs, which i'd regard a terrible mistake since the Republic was founded with certain anti-merc stance.
And to be clear, i don't count any remnants that end up merging with other factions as true remnants. They will not have independence or agenda in practice so they are no longer Republic in any way. They may be interesting things, but they are not RotS.
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Well, if I can get a time stamp I’ll check out the video, but I’m not listening to 110 minutes of of BLP.
The linked post is hypotheticals and what used to be the plan. Not really good for confirming anything. Still, neat BTS of what might have been. That RotS designs would have just been used as equipment for Alaric’s mooks is a bit depressing, but not an illogical result.
RotS’ problem was never feeding the factories, it was people. So a fox network doesn’t seem like it would be critical. We’ve also seen that Alaric is restricting most any travel to and from Terra. So not sure Foxes can even consistently supply or export if they need to for the time being.
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You never know how such units will be used; the Knights of the Inner Sphere were used in a counterattack against the Lyran Alliance to give one example. A new Romanov's Crusaders style unit might work for some.
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The linked post is hypotheticals and what used to be the plan. Not really good for confirming anything. Still, neat BTS of what might have been. That RotS designs would have just been used as equipment for Alaric’s mooks is a bit depressing, but not an illogical result.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=74132.msg1738908#msg1738908
Brent Evans described the plan in this post a couple of years ago, but with caveat that this was before Adrian Gideon and Cubby as line devs.
Basically anything in that should not be taken as the canonical direction now.
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At one point the plan was for the RAF to gleefully join the Wolves and together kick the horses in the teeth.
Plans change and for all my concerns, the current one feels significantly better than old ones I’ve heard, rumor or otherwise.
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RotS’ problem was never feeding the factories, it was people. So a fox network doesn’t seem like it would be critical. We’ve also seen that Alaric is restricting most any travel to and from Terra. So not sure Foxes can even consistently supply or export if they need to for the time being.
Can't exactly easily travel to and from Terra when the wall around it is still active. And I still don't buy the "people" argument. If that was the case then the battle for Japan should have turned out differently.
In terms of Remnants one could argue that the Augustine Alliance which is now part of the League is the last "true" remnant of the Republic. If you count traitors to the state true representatives
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Can't exactly easily travel to and from Terra when the wall around it is still active. And I still don't buy the "people" argument. If that was the case then the battle for Japan should have turned out differently.
In terms of Remnants one could argue that the Augustine Alliance which is now part of the League is the last "true" remnant of the Republic. If you count traitors to the state true representatives
The people argument feels weird because it is. The rates of enlisted in setting are something like 1/400th of real world.
The people issue comes from RotR. Not that BLP was much for logic, story structure, engaging characters, cohesion inside the novel itself, believable plot, or basically anything else you’d associate with writing, but he was the author and RotR was meant to be part of HotW. So yeah, people. Now, unless TPTB decide that bondcord juice is (still) serious magic, Alaric should have a pretty dry well of Terran recruits for a while. Especially since anyone currently training would’ve been on a steady diet of pro-RotS and reprogramming takes time.
As for Augustine Alliance? I mean… if that’s all that’s left I’ll take it, but a bunch of traitors in exile is a sad torch to carry on the nation. Now, RotS citizens and RAF flocking to FWL to establish a new nation within the league? Not the best, but better than a lot of other options. And there’s fun opportunity for the AA to butt heads with whatever the new Republic thing is.
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The people argument feels weird because it is. The rates of enlisted in setting are something like 1/400th of real world.
The people issue comes from RotR. Not that BLP was much for logic, story structure, engaging characters, cohesion inside the novel itself, believable plot, or basically anything else you’d associate with writing, but he was the author and RotR was meant to be part of HotW. So yeah, people. Now, unless TPTB decide that bondcord juice is (still) serious magic, Alaric should have a pretty dry well of Terran recruits for a while. Especially since anyone currently training would’ve been on a steady diet of pro-RotS and reprogramming takes time.
As for Augustine Alliance? I mean… if that’s all that’s left I’ll take it, but a bunch of traitors in exile is a sad torch to carry on the nation. Now, RotS citizens and RAF flocking to FWL to establish a new nation within the league? Not the best, but better than a lot of other options. And there’s fun opportunity for the AA to butt heads with whatever the new Republic thing is.
If we take One door closes seriously then it seems that the Wolves aren't even trying to entice former RAF troopers into their ranks. Yes those that survived the bloodbath that was the Ilclan trial and decided tostay are still there but they are few. Which will be pretty funny once alaric realizes that his life counter (the Wall) runs out and a horde of Capellans stares down his tiny army
Also: Ariana Zou the Paladin who got caught by the Wolves has joined the League too. And there are several RAF units stranded on one League planet who basically don't know where to go. So there might be at least some RAF joining the League. and why not? If they can give them the chance to bash the Wolves over the head they might take it gladly
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It is mostly One Door Closes from Shrapnell Issue #6, it seems that the Sea Foxes are coordinating the salvage/repair on Terra, to do this correctly would also require control of the associated factories.
. . .
And here is a hint about "And of course the CSF merchants could viably have access to certain percentages of output to sell through their various markets to help generate revenue to fund the new SL".
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=74132.msg1738908#msg1738908
You do not need to control the factories to repair, just access to the parts they produce. I thought you were going off the Solaris Wolf garrison being upset about Foxes showing up to sell re-furb gear that had Wolf production stamps.
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Okay, this is gonna draw me some fire, but hey, what the hell...
Name five Republic Survivors who have the potential to matter in the aftermath. Leaders, heroes, people who can serve as a rallying point for or against the ilClan.
I'm saying five, because I expect anyone can name at least ONE, so there's not really a challenge there.
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Any Republic survivor can matter if the Plot demands it. Challenge accepted and satisfied.
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Any Republic survivor can matter if the Plot demands it. Challenge accepted and satisfied.
Uh, no...see, I asked you to NAME five of them. There's a reason for this, and it's not merely to sort out the people who like the Republic from the Wolf fans.
The Republic's existed for half the life of the setting real-time, there are a number of 'named' characters, but some have more potential than others, and their survival suggests some options that aren't just 'dismantled for parts to make the other factions look better."
If you had to write a Republic Resistance or Resurgence, who would you use?
Who's still viable? Who MIGHT BECOME Viable?
see?
Who's the Republic's "Michael Collins" or "Ho Chih Minh", their "Simon Bolivar" or has the potential to fill that role, from the existing list of Republic figures whom are still alive and haven't started licking Alaric's boots?
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And again, anyone who the Plot demands fulfills that role will fulfill it. If HotW has taught me anything, it's that Plot > everything else. But sure, if you want me to throw out five names: Jonah Levin, Tara Campbell, Ariana Zou, Raul Ortega, Shimmer. There, challenge accepted and satisfied again.
But I wouldn't write a Republic resurgence in the first place. I am a Republic fan, but I also feel that their time has come and gone, and I'm choosing to focus my story investment in seeing how this new Star League shakes out as opposed to obsessing over what-ifs and will-never-happens.
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Lol, she used 3 of the ones I would, Shimmer IMO is not plausible b/c she is both a Ghost Knight and disfigured. Sorry but it would count in mass appeal. Campbell is already off with the Falcons. The question is also why I said not having a 'status' list for the Paladins was disappointing, we only know for sure what happened to 2 after all.
One of the other people we do not know what happened initially is Janella Lakewood. Alaric did not hand her over to Malvina, so she was a Wolf prisoner and as far as we know was not one of the Republic mechwarriors who fought the ilClan trial against the Falcons . . . I mean it is plausible, but so far after her capture & not handed over to the Falcons we do not know her status.
But IF Lakewood could get off Terra, her and Mason Dunne would form a powerful combination . . . so there are my 5. Also leaves off Erbe?
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Lol, she used 3 of the ones I would
He*
Shimmer IMO is not plausible b/c she is both a Ghost Knight and disfigured.
As a Ghost Knight, Shimmer has the most potential here, because she could take the big swings like, say, assassinating Alaric.
Campbell is already off with the Falcons.
Sounds like she's in a great position to feed someone intel or otherwise do some damage from the inside.
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Republic resurgence would not be very interesting, but an Republic Exodus could show interesting contrasts.
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And I'd love it if that's what the TPTB did with Tara Campbell but that'll never happen and even the Clans can't be so stupid to not think that is exactly what she would try and do then take measures to give herself enough rope to hang herself with.
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Most important Republic survivors were already named. I might add Tucker to it and there is also rising star Ergen who has a lot of spotlights in Shattered Fortress but is MIA at this point. Then we have the Ghost Paladin whom I suspect has several means of slipping from the net (as well as any Ghosts that survived). What was the name of that Ghost Knight who helped Knight Errant Alexis Holt to locate Tucker? He might have survived too.
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Oh lord, how could I forget Tucker Harwell? He might even be at the top of this particular listing, as he has the most potential to affect actual change on a large scale.
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Tucker Harwell feels like he’s be at the side of whoever leads a remnant. But not leading it himself.
A half dozen Knights/Paladins with unknown status, Levin, and Harwell is plenty for a command staff to jump start a small nation in this setting. Add in the dozen unaccounted for Hastati, Principes, and Triarii units and there’s no reason a remnant can’t coalesce.
Narratively, Tamar Pact is just Sarah Regis as a character and force of will. Vesper Marches is Vedette Brewer and focus. Both nations are also founded on an RCT or less of forces and it’s not like they don’t have seriously stronger threats on their doorsteps. I think two galaxies of horses gunning for the Marches. How many galaxies of RasDom are near Tamar, plus I think three galaxies of Horses.
There’s more than enough characters and raw material to remake a new, reduced RotS. Just depends what TPTB want.
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Yeah, see I thought we were talking about a prospective head of faction in exile, not a 'going to screw with the Wolves in the name of the Republic' like a Operation Werewolf.
Which is why I eliminated Shimmer as it has to be someone other former Republic personnel would have to recognize as an authority to follow, thus the missing Paladins.
I think Janella Lakewood, if she survived and gets off Terra, is pretty likely . . . was the 'intel minister' to Stone, has connections into the Ghost Knights through Dunne, would know what/where black bank accounts might exist, and Dunne under his alias has amassed a military formation- even if they are mercs.
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Lakewood or Levin do seem the most promising.
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The people argument feels weird because it is. The rates of enlisted in setting are something like 1/400th of real world.
The people issue comes from RotR. Not that BLP was much for logic, story structure, engaging characters, cohesion inside the novel itself, believable plot, or basically anything else you’d associate with writing, but he was the author and RotR was meant to be part of HotW. So yeah, people. Now, unless TPTB decide that bondcord juice is (still) serious magic, Alaric should have a pretty dry well of Terran recruits for a while. Especially since anyone currently training would’ve been on a steady diet of pro-RotS and reprogramming takes time.
On the people issue, the WoB kind had that too. They did resort in utilizing robots to augment their forces. Granted the WoB had somewhat different circumstances, and an ideology Terrans didn't necessarily care for (may have been a negative factor even).
Also utilized poorly trained conscripts if i recall correctly, something i suppose RotS didn't want to resort to.
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On Republic Remnants/resurgence, i'm adamant advocate for that because:
1) The Republic died in such an incredibly stupid way. Too much fiat. A stroke of pen really, because Stone was forced to announce its disbandment. It could have been done in many ways, and perhaps was necessary (as there isn't really space for two factions based on Terra), but because of this stupidity i feel RotS absolutely deserves a Remnant.
2) Even if a nation's leader surrenders, that does not mean the people suddenly switch flag. Doesn't mean the nation vanishes. To be sure, RotS nation-building was from over but there's bound to be people who regard it their home rather than any Great House or a Clan, especially invading ones, even if its very founder declares it dead. (And unlike Succession Wars era border worlds, there had been a long period of peace so there's no more "tradition" of swapping flag for the new lords after an invasion.)
3) Between any nationalism and the unaccounted for RotS forces, it would be incredible for the faction to vanish just like that. It has been only a year since the official disbandment. Perhaps the RotS will truly die (or even need to die), but it is not a process that happens instantly, should not happen instantly. There must be effects shown, the process must be shown. And that means there must be forces working for the RotS, political or military or otherwise, for a while. Perhaps they will be disparate elements that will not manage to work together (hurting their cause) but collectively still would be a Remnant faction, for a while if nothing else.
I do not oppose death of a faction as a concept, but death of one cannot be without effects and does not happen over night, it is a process. The Terran Hegemony's final destruction took years, and in certain sense it never truly died as there was a successor-state of sorts in ComStar and Terran nationalism existed for a long while. If i recall correctly, Word of Blake actually tapped on that Terran Hegemony legacy in creating their Protectorate, incidentally laying groundwork for the Republic.
The Clan League will probably need a Terran Hegemony of sorts too, and perhaps it will turn out it would have been smarter to subvert RotS or parts of it for their cause than disband it. Creating stuff from scratch is difficult. Perhaps my Remnant will actually end up being part of the Clan League out of necessity, but i feel it should exits as a distinct entity all the same. Not like Alaric will deem Terrans or other people in RotS territory to be Wolves (or any other Clan). So they have to be something, and they are numerous enough they must have significant effect on things, and given the history, they will have RotS legacy and that will have an effect.
On characters, i'd regard lack of existing names to be a non-issue. New characters can be created. New leaders emerge. FM3145 lists commanders of various RotS commands, perhaps one of those would have survived, a name to build a character around. And there were many Knights in the RotS system who have better than average potential to become leaders, any new Republic leader can be just created from scratch with backstory of being a Knight.
EDIT Also i'm inclined to call most names so far failures as leaders given that they didn't manage to save even parts of the Republic apparently (granted we're still lacking ilKhan's Eyes Only). They have certain baggage that may actually hurt things negatively. Though naturally they still should be players of some level, not like their influence vanishes just like that unless they get killed (and don't be become martyrs of some kind). New characters may be desirable. We'll see.
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While I do hope we'll see some former Republic figures try to keep fighting for the dream or influence things in some way, I hope we also see a few who are broken by the sight of everything they've worked towards dying - those who lose all will to fight and just become pawns going through the motions for the new regime, and those who say "Screw it, I tried my best, now I'm out" and decide to retire to a private island in the Caribbean and let the rest of the Galaxy burn.
Obviously the story can't spend very long on these people because that would be boring at best, but a few scenes here and there showing that not all of the Republic's finest are possessed of the kind of superhuman will needed to keep up the fight against impossible odds for literally decades on end.
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For sure. As i said, a process, effects. Some people just giving up is a natural effect. In some cases, they deserve the right to give up too. Just that effects must be shown, not just told off-handedly.
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While I do hope we'll see some former Republic figures try to keep fighting for the dream or influence things in some way, I hope we also see a few who are broken by the sight of everything they've worked towards dying - those who lose all will to fight and just become pawns going through the motions for the new regime, and those who say "Screw it, I tried my best, now I'm out" and decide to retire to a private island in the Caribbean and let the rest of the Galaxy burn.
This feels like a bare minimum expectation to me. The worst, least believable path forward was the original “RAF gleefully and happily joins wolves” as BLP tried to write. The second worst is for the setting to just suddenly forget the RotS. A major faction died and even if it’s gone for good, there should be ripples as the survivors filter out into the setting.
On Republic Remnants/resurgence, i'm adamant advocate for that because:
1) The Republic died in such an incredibly stupid way. Too much fiat. A stroke of pen really, because Stone was forced to announce its disbandment. It could have been done in many ways, and perhaps was necessary (as there isn't really space for two factions based on Terra), but because of this stupidity i feel RotS absolutely deserves a Remnant.
I don’t want a remnant as a do-over. Not just to spite HotW’s dumpster fire. There needs to be a logical reason that fits the story. The new nation needs to be believable by setting standards.
I want a remnant or even a failed attempt at it because the RotS just evaporating doesn’t make any sense. There’s no way some stubborn pricks aren’t going to try to keep on and we’ve already seen small scale versions in shrapnel and EA. Had Redburn survived Terra, I would it from him.
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I don’t want a remnant as a do-over. Not just to spite HotW’s dumpster fire. There needs to be a logical reason that fits the story. The new nation needs to be believable by setting standards.
I do believe i laid out some logical reasons why there should be something and why it is believable.
But i also think that RotS really deserves a remnant of some kind, and influence either with the Clan League or against it. Facts had to made to fit for ilClan to be, if necessary they can be made again for a far far smaller thing. Perhaps not a thing to be done as a rule, but sometimes exceptions may be necessary, though fortunately there's reasons enough as it is or at least should be.
Realistically the sheer population of Terra will create a power block, let alone other nearby worlds. Realistically the Clans will need help in creating the new Star League and administering what is already. Realistically any attempts at removing existing RotS influence and culture don't seem to be doable for the Clans with what they have on hand (and at worst will bite back badly).
EDIT Come to think of this, there might actually need to be two remnants. One Terran/Clan-aligned (out of necessity, perhaps a "loyal opposition" if nothing else), and one against elsewhere. Though i would assume this elsewhere part probably gets ground to dust and/or absorbed to surrounding powers.
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2) Even if a nation's leader surrenders, that does not mean the people suddenly switch flag. Doesn't mean the nation vanishes. To be sure, RotS nation-building was from over but there's bound to be people who regard it their home rather than any Great House or a Clan, especially invading ones, even if its very founder declares it dead. (And unlike Succession Wars era border worlds, there had been a long period of peace so there's no more "tradition" of swapping flag for the new lords after an invasion.)
No- emphasis mine- that is pretty much what happens when the capital is taken and the political or military leader signs a unconditional surrender. The Republic spent nearly as much time IC as they did IRL dying. You capture the leader and capital thus forcing a surrender . . . the reason the Blakists did not get the FedSuns, Dracs, or Lyrans to surrender is because leaders escaped. Or later the Dracs pushing to New Avalon but failed to capture Caleb alive, the government went into exile and named a new leader.
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A nation is not its capital nor its leadership, it is a people.
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No- emphasis mine- that is pretty much what happens when the capital is taken and the political or military leader signs a unconditional surrender. The Republic spent nearly as much time IC as they did IRL dying. You capture the leader and capital thus forcing a surrender . . . the reason the Blakists did not get the FedSuns, Dracs, or Lyrans to surrender is because leaders escaped. Or later the Dracs pushing to New Avalon but failed to capture Caleb alive, the government went into exile and named a new leader.
Fair point but there could be something akin to what the Lyrans did: abdicating from power therefor rendering the capital useless. If the Republic idea is stronger then just one person / capital it might surivie u8nder another leader. and Levin for example is still out there and he led the Republic for some time. I suspect that the Republic might live on in some form within the coming Clan Hegemony or whatever Alaric will call his new realm. It has a proven goverment system and I would assume it gets modified into a more clasn way but the structures might exist on. Or perhaps something akin to the Raven alliance: Clan leadership and Alliance pseudo-leadership existing in sync. After all so far Alaric holds only one planet: Terra. The rest is highly tenous with no warrior oversight. Not sure if the Foxes are garrisoning the Republic worlds the Wolves took but if no one is there those planets might just flip back. If there are really some RAf units out there flocking to those planets forming a sort of new Remnant might be feasable. New Earth might be a good start point (not sure who holds THAT planet though)
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A nation is not its capital nor its leadership, it is a people.
Yea a nation pretty much is the capital & leadership, especially in BT with the sheeple principle.
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Yea a nation pretty much is the capital & leadership, especially in BT with the sheeple principle.
Yeah and i regard that BT sheeple thing to be stupid. A thing not to be used anymore. (Same with bondcord juice, should be averted extremely strongly.)
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Yeah and i regard that BT sheeple thing to be stupid. A thing not to be used anymore. (Same with bondcord juice, should be averted extremely strongly.)
Lol, it is a foundation of the setting and current stories still support it otherwise the Dragon's Tongue would have been on fire rather than the occasional acts of sabotage or work-stoppage being worthy of mention.
Time causes identities to change when there is not a state to support it- otherwise we would have people claiming to be the Mayan or Roman Empires.
As far as the bondcord? That is simple even for Spheriods- a mild form of Stockholm Syndrome mixed with through indoctrination. Look at historical records of clans & tribes that adopted captured individuals into their ranks, they often went through the same process. But recent stories have also not portrayed it as fool proof- heck OLD stories did not either, see Judith Faber! For the Clans it is like pro sports teams doing trades or collegiate sports' transfer portal (rant!!) where they change jerseys.
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Yea a nation pretty much is the capital & leadership, especially in BT with the sheeple principle.
That's what so frequently gets me. The average citizen can't be blasé about shifting from the FS to the CC, the LC to the DC, or the FC to a Clan. I mean, they can, but only so long as the ideology and flavor of those cultures sit on top of a homogeneous resource base where changing factions is a matter of changing money and flags for the average citizen.
Even the idea of a Republic, however actually democratic, with Earth as an active participant in Inner Sphere affairs would be a major sea change.
But as-is, citizens rise up when it's convenient for the story but are otherwise indifferent to massive, top-down social changes because [insert reason here].
Whether it's sheeple because society is the same for the actual proletariat or engaged citizens because top-level leadership imposes itself on the conquered, I'll roll with it, but it always seems so arbitrary.
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Doesn't mean the nation vanishes.
The counter point to this, is that there were a TON of splinter factions that rebelled at the first opportunity, with loyalties aligned to another Power. Every planet in the Republic had been part of another nation for longer than they were part of the Republic, and the Republic wasn't really around all that long when compared to the life spans of the ruling elite.
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The counter point to this, is that there were a TON of splinter factions that rebelled at the first opportunity, with loyalties aligned to another Power. Every planet in the Republic had been part of another nation for longer than they were part of the Republic, and the Republic wasn't really around all that long when compared to the life spans of the ruling elite.
That's a very good point. The Republic didn't even hit the century mark.
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I think a lot of former RAF troopers who joined the Wolves also left right after they won the IlClan trial. The Cheetahs are probably the most prominent as their leader stated "we only wnated to defeat the Falcons but we don't want to serve the wolves who destroyed our home" And as you mentioned said Shrapnell story the former RAf soldiers HATE those that are still serving the Wolves. That's one powderkeg ready to explode if it isn't diffused soon
Having finally read that Shrapnel story.
My take was there was "one crew" that left the ilClan to after the trial. The Cheetah's were the only (sure if there is one, then there are probably two, but there wasn't an exodus) unit on the mercenary star from Terra, which made their information valuable. The hate they were taking, and the murders, will probably push those exRAF who did fight with the wolves closer to Clan wolf.
My other take away from the story, is that the exRAF that were doing the hating weren't necessarily what the clans would call warriors. The one called out in the bar fight was a tech. Alaric has an immediate need for need for warrior, not logistics, admin, and techs. So the hate the Ares crew caught might have been more proto-caste system placement fear than anything else. That there is still a chance that, Mechwarriors will be absorbed into Clan Wolf, while the rest of the RAF is left to wither.
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Having finally read that Shrapnel story.
My take was there was "one crew" that left the ilClan to after the trial. The Cheetah's were the only (sure if there is one, then there are probably two, but there wasn't an exodus) unit on the mercenary star from Terra, which made their information valuable. The hate they were taking, and the murders, will probably push those exRAF who did fight with the wolves closer to Clan wolf.
My other take away from the story, is that the exRAF that were doing the hating weren't necessarily what the clans would call warriors. The one called out in the bar fight was a tech. Alaric has an immediate need for need for warrior, not logistics, admin, and techs. So the hate the Ares crew caught might have been more proto-caste system placement fear than anything else. That there is still a chance that, Mechwarriors will be absorbed into Clan Wolf, while the rest of the RAF is left to wither.
Which is, from a practical level, an ass-backwards thing that can ONLY happen in a setting like Battletech, where Logistics is a word tossed around by writers who don't understand the concept.
Put this way: bullet sponges are EASY to recruit. Finding someone who can navigate and debug eighteen million lines of code, or fault isolate an artificial nervous system arguably more complex than the human body, and do it for what an E-4 is paid? That's a little bit LESS common. Meanwhile every glory machine in the Touman is a maintenance intensive device that must be frequently repaired (and repaired up to a spec suitable for combat-readiness) at a moment's notice.
Every one of those fantastic Autocannons, Missile launchers, etc. requires ammunition, which must be manufactured, packed, shipped, delivered and installed, with inspection steps at each stop to verify it's the right stuff, in good condition, that the stevedore didn't drop a Peterbilt in the feed, and that the 100 missiles out of the factory are still 100 missiles when they gt to the combat unit.
The part of the RAF worth KEEPING is that ass-end admin end. You can put an illiterate in a 'mech and teach them to warrior, try teaching an illiterate how to manage a supply line, maintain combat equipment, or handle expensive electronic maintenance necessary to keep that equipment running.
and good luck on that one.
of course, none of the above actually applies, because 'Clans R Magyk!!!' and everything just works fine.
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It was Clan Wolf and Jade Falcons warrior castes that were crippled. Both Clans (along with the Sea Foxes) technician, merchant, and other lower castes were mostly untouched by the conflict on Terra. I don't see Alaric needing the non-combat portion of the RAF to regenerate the the fighting capacity of the ilClan. Nor does it make sense for him to take the risk of allowing the RAF to exist as an independent power base.
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Which is, from a practical level, an ass-backwards thing that can ONLY happen in a setting like Battletech, where Logistics is a word tossed around by writers who don't understand the concept.
Put this way: bullet sponges are EASY to recruit. Finding someone who can navigate and debug eighteen million lines of code, or fault isolate an artificial nervous system arguably more complex than the human body, and do it for what an E-4 is paid? That's a little bit LESS common. Meanwhile every glory machine in the Touman is a maintenance intensive device that must be frequently repaired (and repaired up to a spec suitable for combat-readiness) at a moment's notice.
Every one of those fantastic Autocannons, Missile launchers, etc. requires ammunition, which must be manufactured, packed, shipped, delivered and installed, with inspection steps at each stop to verify it's the right stuff, in good condition, that the stevedore didn't drop a Peterbilt in the feed, and that the 100 missiles out of the factory are still 100 missiles when they gt to the combat unit.
The part of the RAF worth KEEPING is that ass-end admin end. You can put an illiterate in a 'mech and teach them to warrior, try teaching an illiterate how to manage a supply line, maintain combat equipment, or handle expensive electronic maintenance necessary to keep that equipment running.
and good luck on that one.
of course, none of the above actually applies, because 'Clans R Magyk!!!' and everything just works fine.
If logistics is just a word that's tossed around then I don't see why it should suddenly start being important, especially in this situation of all the possible ones
As for those can navigate and debug eighteen million lines of code, Wolves have plenty of those since not a single one was anywhere near the shootouts
It is bullet sponges that they are short on, they have gaggle of technicians and logisticians
And I'm pretty sure that it was established that Clan civilians are actually very good at logistics, problem during invasion was that warriors were taking the whole thing for granted and did not plan in accordance to abilities
It wasn't logistics that needed fixing, it was approach to planning which needed it and in the century since it has gotten it
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It was Clan Wolf and Jade Falcons warrior castes that were crippled. Both Clans (along with the Sea Foxes) technician, merchant, and other lower castes were mostly untouched by the conflict on Terra. I don't see Alaric needing the non-combat portion of the RAF to regenerate the the fighting capacity of the ilClan. Nor does it make sense for him to take the risk of allowing the RAF to exist as an independent power base.
That portion you don't think is important because their undersized logistics organizations were left behind you mean?? The ONLY reason it would be irrelevant, is because of author fiat handwaving it as not important (until it suddenly becomes a plot-point because Alaric needs a cosmetic defeat).
Combat troops need to be fed, clothed, housed, armed, and healed-that's around 90% of militaries after someone figured out that living like locusts destroys armies that try it...sometime around the time Rome started kicking Carthage's ass. (go back and look at the campaigns of Ghengis-he incorporated as much of the conquered enemy army as he could manage, and was more organized than the bulk his opponents in terms of covering his back-end.)
Alaric's got a major occupation to run, and even if he sticks with "behave or we'll commit atrocities that make the Cappies blanch" those atrocities need to be supplied, maintained, housed, fed, armed, and healed.
and he's gotta do that while holding the REST of his empire so he still has an industrial base (you know, the shaft, that holds hte spear head pointed at the enemy).
the valuable part is the part that's hardest to replace competently, and with this kind of scale, incompetence leads to self-defeat.
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I generally agree that logistics is underappreciated in wargaming and military science fiction, but Geg and Fire Scorpion are right. Alaric took north of 50% casualties among his warriors and (probably) single digits among his techs. The Wolves are now a support- and logistics-heavy organization compared to what they were in 3149. Recruiting Republic techs would only further skew that ratio.
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I generally agree that logistics is underappreciated in wargaming and military science fiction, but Geg and Fire Scorpion are right. Alaric took north of 50% casualties among his warriors and (probably) single digits among his techs. The Wolves are now a support- and logistics-heavy organization compared to what they were in 3149. Recruiting Republic techs would only further skew that ratio.
How many of those support elements are back in the Empire, which is currently under assault?
Ruger
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And I'm pretty sure that it was established that Clan civilians are actually very good at logistics, problem during invasion was that warriors were taking the whole thing for granted and did not plan in accordance to abilities
It wasn't logistics that needed fixing, it was approach to planning which needed it and in the century since it has gotten it
Clan logistics usually only works when your opponent obliges to your arcane ruleset. Though I would wager that the wolves are more on the flexible side and less prone to strikes at their logistics. BUT the bas ewhich is supposed to supply the Wolves is currently crumbling thanks to very angry Dragoons and a League hellbent on basically uniting itself against the wolves (uniting in the sense of also integrating the Regulans into the fold and most of the time a war against a comon enemy works as glue) So the question is how long this logistic trail will work. And the next question would be if the Foxes can even supply the Wolves as the Foxes are split into different aimags and who knows if some of them go "Uhh no that's bad business"
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Clan logistics usually only works when your opponent obliges to your arcane ruleset. Though I would wager that the wolves are more on the flexible side and less prone to strikes at their logistics. BUT the bas ewhich is supposed to supply the Wolves is currently crumbling thanks to very angry Dragoons and a League hellbent on basically uniting itself against the wolves (uniting in the sense of also integrating the Regulans into the fold and most of the time a war against a comon enemy works as glue) So the question is how long this logistic trail will work. And the next question would be if the Foxes can even supply the Wolves as the Foxes are split into different aimags and who knows if some of them go "Uhh no that's bad business
There was nothing arcane about maintaining logistics lines across vastness of space between Clan Homeworlds and Inner Sphere during one of largest military operations in known history, it just worked
Problem was that warriors assumed that it will keep working regardless of all the additional strain they put on it while they played the game of who is fasta'
Compared to those distances and workload hopping across the sandbox of the central Inner Sphere is less than a milk run
Honestly I find it quite amusing that the whole Clan logistics meme is still a thing in current BT universe date, it would be like discussing feeding the horses during some 21st century war
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How many of those support elements are back in the Empire, which is currently under assault?
Ruger
It was packed up, IIRC there was some discussion of having sub-standard techs working on stuff in preparation for a Dragoons' assault. By Empires Alone & the Dragoons novel, Alaric gathered almost every jumpship in the Empire which left very few to keep interplanetary trade going and the remaining garrison dependent on the Free Guilds & Sea Foxes to pass messages.
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That portion you don't think is important because their undersized logistics organizations were left behind you mean?? The ONLY reason it would be irrelevant, is because of author fiat handwaving it as not important (until it suddenly becomes a plot-point because Alaric needs a cosmetic defeat).
The books and the podcast interviews around the books stress multiple times that this wasn't an invasion of Terra from the Wolf Empire, but a migration of Clan Wolf from the Wolf Empire to Terra. If it was necessary to wage war on and then hold Terra, I think it's a safe assumption to make that it went with Alaric to Terra.
This migration doesn't look as comprehensive as the move from the old Wolf OZ to the Empire. I don't remember much being said about in CoK/HotW/ilClan about the Genetic Repositories being relocated or a jump ship full of scientists caste to kickstart sibcos, but it also wouldn't surprise me to hear about those jumping in late and waiting in space until the battle on the ground was resolved.
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The books and the podcast interviews around the books stress multiple times that this wasn't an invasion of Terra from the Wolf Empire, but a migration of Clan Wolf from the Wolf Empire to Terra. If it was necessary to wage war on and then hold Terra, I think it's a safe assumption to make that it went with Alaric to Terra.
This migration doesn't look as comprehensive as the move from the old Wolf OZ to the Empire. I don't remember much being said about in CoK/HotW/ilClan about the Genetic Repositories being relocated or a jump ship full of scientists caste to kickstart sibcos, but it also wouldn't surprise me to hear about those jumping in late and waiting in space until the battle on the ground was resolved.
A migration so far of the critical portion that were themselves a migration of what had previously been the critical few. I don’t think the planned migration started yet. EA shows that there are a a significant number of sibkos left in the Empire. If Alaric took any, it wasn’t much. That said, I don’t remember much on the repositories themselves in EA and it really doesn’t matter. Moved repositories payoff in 20 years. Alaric needs help now.
I think Alaric took whatever he needed to take and hold Terra long enough for him to move some, but not all long term resources in. Given the silence from Terra in EA/RR, I think the plan got stopped.
Mostly, because even if he took Terra, Alaric moving his entire clan to Terra whole is suicide. We’ve just been shown for 20 years in universe that holding Terra isn’t enough. You need more. That also doesn’t even include that Clan Wolf as of May 3152 is by a long shot the weakest group to ever hold Terra relative to the state of the sphere.
If he did get cut off (big if here), it would be absurdly stupid for him not to gobble up every RAF troop and personnel asset he can get to join him. That said, I also think the RAF is pretty much a dry well.
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A migration so far of the critical portion that were themselves a migration of what had previously been the critical few. I don’t think the planned migration started yet. EA shows that there are a a significant number of sibkos left in the Empire. If Alaric took any, it wasn’t much. That said, I don’t remember much on the repositories themselves in EA and it really doesn’t matter. Moved repositories payoff in 20 years. Alaric needs help now.
I think Alaric took whatever he needed to take and hold Terra long enough for him to move some, but not all long term resources in. Given the silence from Terra in EA/RR, I think the plan got stopped.
Mostly, because even if he took Terra, Alaric moving his entire clan to Terra whole is suicide. We’ve just been shown for 20 years in universe that holding Terra isn’t enough. You need more. That also doesn’t even include that Clan Wolf as of May 3152 is by a long shot the weakest group to ever hold Terra relative to the state of the sphere.
If he did get cut off (big if here), it would be absurdly stupid for him not to gobble up every RAF troop and personnel asset he can get to join him. That said, I also think the RAF is pretty much a dry well.
The point of calling out this as a migration was to highlight what Alaric had on hand consolidated one system.
- The Wolf Jumpship Fleet
- A majority of the Falcon Jump-ships
- However many jump ships the RAF had left
- Every Wolf/Falcon Technician worth a damn.
What he needs from Terra being:
- Food
- War Materials
- Replacement Warriors
I don't feel like he needs most of the RAF. Just those that could become Warriors and those civies that run the factories. Getting everything else up and running for the long term is going to take some work, but I don't feel like there is a ton of urgency. The Lyrans are trashed, the Davions are busy, the FWL is attacking the Empire, the Bear and Kuritans are busy with each other, and CapCon just got stabbed in the back.
As long as the wolves can replace fallen warriors, they should have the time to get the rest of their society back up and running and get that two jump cordon around Terra secure. None of this is easy or simple. But it all seams to be doable, especially if we kinda know where the meta plot is heading.
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Do we mention the GenCon Diorama- which was PROBABLY related to ilKhan Eyes Only?
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Do we mention the GenCon Diorama- which was PROBABLY related to ilKhan Eyes Only?
Can we. I haven't seen it yet?
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Started an appropriate thread in the Clan part. I do not have the pictures, just what I saw on FB and there were previous teases.
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As long as the wolves can replace fallen warriors, they should have the time to get the rest of their society back up and running and get that two jump cordon around Terra secure. None of this is easy or simple. But it all seams to be doable, especially if we kinda know where the meta plot is heading.
Considering that the Wolves have lost quiet a lot of sibkos to either the Dragoons or the accelerated trials initiated by the Wolf empire's leadership I'd say it will take at least a decade until the Wolves can repopulate their touman with pure Wolves. And the other clans? The Falcons are in essenmce non existent and who knows how Jiyi (who has the repository in his hand) will react to the Wolves. The Jaguars are rare in numbers. The Ravens have only a small ground force arm and the Bears shredded themselves thanks to Alaric's antics and now their short war with the Combine. And I'd wager the Foxes will try to keep their touman out of the battle to protect their spread out trading fleets.
If the Wolves manage to defeat the Capellans they will be weakend for the next opponent to come knocking (or stampeding *wink wink*)
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The Falcons are in essenmce non existent and who knows how Jiyi (who has the repository in his hand) will react to the Wolves.
Something like this, hopefully.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mai-otome_red_eye.jpg)
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Considering that the Wolves have lost quiet a lot of sibkos to either the Dragoons or the accelerated trials initiated by the Wolf empire's leadership I'd say it will take at least a decade until the Wolves can repopulate their touman with pure Wolves. And the other clans? The Falcons are in essenmce non existent and who knows how Jiyi (who has the repository in his hand) will react to the Wolves. The Jaguars are rare in numbers. The Ravens have only a small ground force arm and the Bears shredded themselves thanks to Alaric's antics and now their short war with the Combine. And I'd wager the Foxes will try to keep their touman out of the battle to protect their spread out trading fleets.
If the Wolves manage to defeat the Capellans they will be weakend for the next opponent to come knocking (or stampeding *wink wink*)
They lost the New Olympia academy freebirth sibko and portions of IIRC a 5-8 year old range of Alaric's derived sibkos. The Dragoons targeted no other sibkos than those, but Star Colonel Ortho did graduate the next year or two early, depending on when the sibko was decanted but it was IIRC basically 18-20 year olds.
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If the Wolves manage to defeat the Capellans they will be weakend for the next opponent to come knocking (or stampeding *wink wink*)
I really hope the Horses aren't stupid enough to actually try something here. They're already struggling as it is without opening up a new front.
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I really hope the Horses aren't stupid enough to actually try something here. They're already struggling as it is without opening up a new front.
The Horses need to clear out some space so Tamar can rise properly. :laugh:
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Do we know how much of Stone's resettlement program was due to WoB WMDs making a planet marginal enough it might need to be abandoned? I was reading the Tau Ceti Saran, and it looks like that is what happened with New Earth, and where is there one, there are probably others.
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Do we know how much of Stone's resettlement program was due to WoB WMDs making the planet marginal enough it might need to be abandoned?
FM3085: "In the immediate aftermath of the liberation of Terra, many floated the idea of a Terran exodus outward to the worlds of the fallen Protectorate for the purposes of rebuilding and restoring the damaged planets and their stricken people." So the idea was there, at least, but this is literally ALL that was ever said about it from that angle.
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FM3085: "In the immediate aftermath of the liberation of Terra, many floated the idea of a Terran exodus outward to the worlds of the fallen Protectorate for the purposes of rebuilding and restoring the damaged planets and their stricken people." So the idea was there, at least, but this is literally ALL that was ever said about it from that angle.
I think there's an "Underdeveloped fiction" problem here, and you arrowed right in on it (possibly accidentally).
With the predictable result that some people (okay, me...and Me...and people who think like I do...) drew some pretty dark implications from it, which the canon then failed to eliminate.
incidentally, we're back to discussing The Republic again instead of Clan Wolf...finally.
The major problem I see, is that we really don't have a good picture of those years after the Jihad, and prior to Gray Monday. what we have instead, are a lot of one-liners and two-liners, entries from unit descriptions out of MWDA, and shaky references in passing.
almost as if the faction were being set up from day one, to be dismantled for spare parts-a 'plot device' rather than a 'player faction'.
It almost feels like Filtvelt got better ink, even with less of it, than the Republic did...which just kind of amplifies in a sense, the feeling of forced-and-artificial that was the Republic's ending.
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I am going to note that the Republic of the Sphere appears to have never had the ruthlessness of the Successor States when it came to dealing with armed splinter groups. This can be seen in Ghost War. Their counterintelligence appears to have been highly compromised from the beginning, allowing extremists to rise to positions of power that they likely never could have dreamed of reaching elsewhere. There are obvious exceptions, but only the Word of Blake itself achieved anything resembling that level of infiltration of the power structures of a major power. In that case it was because the Captain-General was in on it until it was too late.
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The major problem I see, is that we really don't have a good picture of those years after the Jihad, and prior to Gray Monday. what we have instead, are a lot of one-liners and two-liners, entries from unit descriptions out of MWDA, and shaky references in passing.
Totally not joking or being a smartass when I say this, but maybe you should consider taking all of that fanfic energy you have and submitting something for Shrapnel to fill in the gaps.
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Totally not joking or being a smartass when I say this, but maybe you should consider taking all of that fanfic energy you have and submitting something for Shrapnel to fill in the gaps.
I DID the 'write battletech for pay' thing as a freelancer before, and in the aftermath, burned some bridges that can't be rebuilt with Catalyst. I am quite thoroughly certain no submission with my name on it would make it past the slush pile. (*yeah, it's been close to 20 years, but if I'm still remembering it, almost guaranteed so are they.)
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I DID the 'write battletech for pay' thing as a freelancer before, and in the aftermath, burned some bridges that can't be rebuilt with Catalyst. I am quite thoroughly certain no submission with my name on it would make it past the slush pile. (*yeah, it's been close to 20 years, but if I'm still remembering it, almost guaranteed so are they.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonym
:wink:
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonym
:wink:
some people can make that work. I'm afraid I'm not one of them, and when a publisher cuts you a cheque, they need to know who they're actually paying (both for tax reasons, and to be assured it's not stolen from someone else whom they'll have to pay in court).
Actual pseudonyms require some legal processes, it's cheaper, easier and better if you're writing as yourself. Romance publishers and porn outfits, big media, etc. can do it because those writers either have contracts, or agents. I lack these things, because right around 2005 or so, I realized I'd never make full-time pro with the writing. hence, it's a HOBBY, and I have a REAL JOB.
But this is all a huge digression from the subject at hand; The Republic of the Sphere.
and why?
For every writer who gets paid, there are hundreds who dream about it, means the replacement pool is pretty large, most of them are younger than I am, have better grammar than I do, and actually have talent.
Shrapnel probably gets hundreds of unsolicited submissions daily, odds are, some of those rejected submissions cover the time period I brought up, but fail to conform to some aspect of the current editorial staff's vision, or don't fit the need, or aren't likely to be something readers will pay money to read.
for example, not being in the period-range Shrapnel's looking to fill currently, or contain elements/storylines or ideas that clash with the editorial direction of the game product line as it currently exists, or close holes they're holding open for some intended future product.
When it comes to writing the style they're looking for, i'm tone-deaf. Even when I keep it close to canon, it's tone-deaf, and I have a habit of going 'off the reserve' in ways that would make accepting it...problematic even if there were no other issues involved.
If you're going to write to a pay market, it's good to know the rules, I know enough of the rules to know my stuff wouldn't make it past the slush-pile even without the past history.
my writing style, it doesn't match up seamlessly enough to fit with the product in a manner suitable for the paying market.
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Given the amount of Clantech the Republic either built or had access to towards the end, does it seem reasonable that at least some of their Claymore V3 DropShips might have been upgraded to the Interceptor configuration?
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Given the amount of Clantech the Republic either built or had access to towards the end, does it seem reasonable that at least some of their Claymore V3 DropShips might have been upgraded to the Interceptor configuration?
It's possible. Given the shit showing by the Republic's Naval arm, I'm doubtful the Clanners would adopt their gear as opposed to scrapping it out and building their own designs. Generally, armies and cultures do NOT adopt the tools and weapons of those they see as weak or losers unless it's got a material advantage over what they're already fielding.
(this has actually happened with the Spanish-American war, and the Mauser rifle, but it's rare enough that, aside from clearly experimental tech like Jet Engines that were a visible advantage, it's strikingly unlikely. The U.S. didn't adopt an AK-pattern rifle after Vietnam, for example.)
The problem here, is the same as it would be in any speculation not grounded in author fiat. If we presume normal human intelligence, the Wolves have no reason to adopt any weapons system that isn't grossly superior in some way, within their successful doctrine, that they captured from the Republic beyond material shortages.
They're not Germany in 1939-1945 forced to scavenge from conquered lands just to equip their army because they can't make enough weapons to do it themselves, and the Republic's equipment doesn't represent a significant advantage over the gear they already make, and Know, intimately.
further, as peer equipment, it didn't perform sufficiently better in actual combat, to suggest any such advantages might be even in the potential.
by contrast, in the realm of actual combat, the Republic's naval arm demonstrated the ability to be brutally and completely ineffective and ineffectual.
This, would influence decisions regarding procurement and refit of surviving examples versus the idea of either letting the merchant caste sell them off to sock-puppets at a discount (Say, through the Sea Foxes to remove the dishonor of selling to an enemy), or scrap them for raw materials to build something actually effective, that might actually do the job.
Because the RoTS Naval units were an utter and complete failure and waste of time, lives etc. that kind of failure does not invite adoption of even actually good equipment by the victor.
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Worth remembering that the RAF navy faced off against 13 clan warships with 9 of their own. I’m not a warship guys, but at a glance it looked like the clans ones were better, bigger classes. In the end, the clans were left with 4 in working order and four more that might be repairable with enough time and resources.
So RAF navy isn’t the trash fire canonshop describes.
What did happen was the plot demanded a bunch of other assets just didn’t exist anymore so the wolves could reach Terra alive.
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What did happen was the plot demanded a bunch of other assets just didn’t exist anymore so the wolves could reach Terra alive.
Like what?
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Like what?
Like actual warships. The Repubulic owned three (http://E785e). The rest of the fleet Church is positing, are Dropships. The mismatch made worse by the Republic's navy relying on space stations as combat assets (*the same thing the last few owners of the Terran system relied on, right before they lost it).
Per the published material, it was every inch the one-sided fight I said it was, including there being no reasonable expectation that anything in THAT branch is going to be seen by the winners as more than slightly dangerous scrap fit for recycling into something useful, like bedpans and ration tins.
HotW painted a one-sided fight and the sourcebook really didn't improve this, the RoTS forces had insufficient gear, in insufficient numbers, employed stupidly all the way from the jump point to the planet.
The whole naval arm wasn't even, in practical terms, a speed-bump for Wolf, or jade Falcon, forces.
Poor gear, used badly, does NOT get adopted for use by your conquerors.
Having read the writeups, and participated with OTHERS who also read them, the Naval "battles" in the Sol system resembled nothing so much as Yer Drunk Uncle stomping kittens with his work boots.
Meaning no conditions were presented where the outcome could be different in the slightest. No actual strategy to the setup, no tactics in the execution, no chance of winning at all. The Belters who volunteered to help RAF were committing expensive suicide and lacked the initiative to escape or regroup or refuse an outright dog of a plan.
Trifecta met, the wolves would have to suddenly turn into natural service animals eager to help cripples for them to adopt anything from that battle except a new set of denigrating jokes.
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Like actual warships. The Repubulic owned three (http://E785e). The rest of the fleet Church is positing, are Dropships. The mismatch made worse by the Republic's navy relying on space stations as combat assets (*the same thing the last few owners of the Terran system relied on, right before they lost it).
Per the published material, it was every inch the one-sided fight I said it was, including there being no reasonable expectation that anything in THAT branch is going to be seen by the winners as more than slightly dangerous scrap fit for recycling into something useful, like bedpans and ration tins.
HotW painted a one-sided fight and the sourcebook really didn't improve this, the RoTS forces had insufficient gear, in insufficient numbers, employed stupidly all the way from the jump point to the planet.
The whole naval arm wasn't even, in practical terms, a speed-bump for Wolf, or jade Falcon, forces.
Poor gear, used badly, does NOT get adopted for use by your conquerors.
Having read the writeups, and participated with OTHERS who also read them, the Naval "battles" in the Sol system resembled nothing so much as Yer Drunk Uncle stomping kittens with his work boots.
Meaning no conditions were presented where the outcome could be different in the slightest. No actual strategy to the setup, no tactics in the execution, no chance of winning at all. The Belters who volunteered to help RAF were committing expensive suicide and lacked the initiative to escape or regroup or refuse an outright dog of a plan.
Trifecta met, the wolves would have to suddenly turn into natural service animals eager to help cripples for them to adopt anything from that battle except a new set of denigrating jokes.
Ah this again. Well, basically none of this is correct.
Republic warships
Abundantia - Essex
Gladius Terrae - Unknown Class
Glory of the Republic - Unknown class
Fire of the Republic - Unknown class
Dolabra - Unknown class
Ciaravella - Unknown class
Triumphus - Lola III
Auspicium - Aegis class
Redemption - Quixote class
9 warships. Like mechanically, in game, warships. None particularly large though. Some appear to have been previously unmentioned so their classes unknown.
Missing assets: Basically everything the SLDF, Amaris, and WoB built to try to make deep space a tire fire for invaders. And if you really want to trigger canonshop, the fleet of castrums. Sure, PWS doesn’t hold up the best to warships proper given game rules, but they should have been popping wolf’s precious dropships with ease.
But how did the warships fair? Well, 9 warships faced 6 wolf ships, then 7 Falcon ships, and like I said, in total destroyed 5 and crippled 4. Seems like solid performance from a fleet out gunned, out massed, and throughly plot shanked.
Oh, worth mentioning. In the tire fire that was HotW, zero Clan warships died. In ilclan, 2 died and 7 were crippled. Then MUL shows another three must have been write offs (or MUL is in error). The novel and sourcebook are wildly, irreconcilably, different.
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I feel like the Warships lack of effectiveness was addressed. Stone, wanted to preserve his Navy, so he could use them to rebuild the Republic, which is in part why the Clans had to be beaten on the ground. Their lack of effectiveness on the way to Terra a strategic choice, and by the time Stone called them in and tactical advantage they had was lost.
The other side of that coin is that it's axiomatic in the Battletech setting that it's almost impossible to intercept and stop and invading force before it gets to the planets surface. Unless the assets are starting from the same point of origin, ships cannot reliably close for combat. My head cannon, is that there are unexplained constraints around navigation, thrust, waste, and supply. That the energy environment around a planet or gravity well greatly advantages the attacker, and that there is a lot of off screen action with ASF creating an effective screen. All with a sprinkling of combat refusals from aristocrats that have no interest in risking death.
But whatever reasons are given, space combat seams to be one of those things where you need to mash the I believe button.
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It's possible. Given the shit showing by the Republic's Naval arm, I'm doubtful the Clanners would adopt their gear as opposed to scrapping it out and building their own designs. Generally, armies and cultures do NOT adopt the tools and weapons of those they see as weak or losers unless it's got a material advantage over what they're already fielding.
(this has actually happened with the Spanish-American war, and the Mauser rifle, but it's rare enough that, aside from clearly experimental tech like Jet Engines that were a visible advantage, it's strikingly unlikely. The U.S. didn't adopt an AK-pattern rifle after Vietnam, for example.)
The problem here, is the same as it would be in any speculation not grounded in author fiat. If we presume normal human intelligence, the Wolves have no reason to adopt any weapons system that isn't grossly superior in some way, within their successful doctrine, that they captured from the Republic beyond material shortages.
They're not Germany in 1939-1945 forced to scavenge from conquered lands just to equip their army because they can't make enough weapons to do it themselves, and the Republic's equipment doesn't represent a significant advantage over the gear they already make, and Know, intimately.
further, as peer equipment, it didn't perform sufficiently better in actual combat, to suggest any such advantages might be even in the potential.
by contrast, in the realm of actual combat, the Republic's naval arm demonstrated the ability to be brutally and completely ineffective and ineffectual.
This, would influence decisions regarding procurement and refit of surviving examples versus the idea of either letting the merchant caste sell them off to sock-puppets at a discount (Say, through the Sea Foxes to remove the dishonor of selling to an enemy), or scrap them for raw materials to build something actually effective, that might actually do the job.
Because the RoTS Naval units were an utter and complete failure and waste of time, lives etc. that kind of failure does not invite adoption of even actually good equipment by the victor.
At no point did I ask about Clan Wolf. I asked about the Republic Navy. If I wanted to talk about Wolf space assets, I'd go to the Wolf thread.
I'll ask again: Given the amount of Clantech the Republic either built or had access to towards the end, does it seem reasonable that at least some of the RAF's Claymore V3 DropShips might have been upgraded to the Interceptor configuration?
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Ah this again. Well, basically none of this is correct.
Republic warships
Abundantia - Essex
Gladius Terrae - Unknown Class
Glory of the Republic - Unknown class
Fire of the Republic - Unknown class
Dolabra - Unknown class
Ciaravella - Unknown class
Triumphus - Lola III
Auspicium - Aegis class
Redemption - Quixote class
9 warships. Like mechanically, in game, warships. None particularly large though. Some appear to have been previously unmentioned so their classes unknown.
Missing assets: Basically everything the SLDF, Amaris, and WoB built to try to make deep space a tire fire for invaders. And if you really want to trigger canonshop, the fleet of castrums. Sure, PWS doesn’t hold up the best to warships proper given game rules, but they should have been popping wolf’s precious dropships with ease.
But how did the warships fair? Well, 9 warships faced 6 wolf ships, then 7 Falcon ships, and like I said, in total destroyed 5 and crippled 4. Seems like solid performance from a fleet out gunned, out massed, and throughly plot shanked.
Oh, worth mentioning. In the tire fire that was HotW, zero Clan warships died. In ilclan, 2 died and 7 were crippled. Then MUL shows another three must have been write offs (or MUL is in error). The novel and sourcebook are wildly, irreconcilably, different.
I'm interested in your source for some of the ones you have a class for...I used (and linked!) a source that gets updated pretty regularly and it ain't changed since HoTW was announced, much less put to print.
But it's a pretty solid bet that "Unknown class" is a Dropship, not a warship.
When you have conflicting sources, you use only the information you can match between them unless or until you get clarification. it's been a year or more, no clarifications to support YOUR claim have appeared. The Clan warship casualties line up with inter-CLAN fighting in the orbitals, not with Republic Naval actions.
As I said previously, The RAF(Naval) was shown to be comprehensively and completely ineffective, in part, because they were kept that way as part of Stone's Master Plan-which they followed when it obviously didn't work.
I feel like the Warships lack of effectiveness was addressed. Stone, wanted to preserve his Navy, so he could use them to rebuild the Republic, which is in part why the Clans had to be beaten on the ground. Their lack of effectiveness on the way to Terra a strategic choice, and by the time Stone called them in and tactical advantage they had was lost.
The other side of that coin is that it's axiomatic in the Battletech setting that it's almost impossible to intercept and stop and invading force before it gets to the planets surface. Unless the assets are starting from the same point of origin, ships cannot reliably close for combat. My head cannon, is that there are unexplained constraints around navigation, thrust, waste, and supply. That the energy environment around a planet or gravity well greatly advantages the attacker, and that there is a lot of off screen action with ASF creating an effective screen. All with a sprinkling of combat refusals from aristocrats that have no interest in risking death.
But whatever reasons are given, space combat seams to be one of those things where you need to mash the I believe button.
If I know where your origin point is, I know how long it's going to take you to bring ground troops to the ground, because I know how long it's going to take you to move there at one gee by the shortest route from that origin.
Basic Navigation, plus "soldiers who spend hours at multiple gees don't become supermen, they become Hospital cases or corpses."
Human body? meet PHYSICS. We KNOW how it works on human beings, there's been decades of real-world study, and in Battletech, thre is no such thing as Inertial Dampening or antigravity devices. An invading force coming through the stable points is going to take X amount of time, because they're carrying Ground troops, whom are not specialist Naval ratings equipped and trained to endure that specific kind of sustained stress (which gets ridiculously more severe if you try things like a Three Gravity Braking Maneuver).
How do I know? because I know where your turnover point has to be.
It's complicated for a writer who doesn't know how to do ballistics math, but it isn't the impossible task you think it is-calculus does not stop being calculus just because it's the 31st century, geometry doesn't cease to apply (nor trig) just because you have giant robotz, and circulation issues, blood-brain-barriers and bone density don't stop mattering.
These aren't aliens with a freaky biology, they're human beings, who get tired, fatigued, and suffer organic damage from physical traumas.
An invasion force or passenger ship is extremely predictable-because they have to be, to get the invading forces (or passengers) to the planet in healthy condition to Fight (or walk on their own without help).
That's gonna set your maximum at 1 gee accel/Decel, if you want your ground forces to invade anything but a rehabilitation center...as patients.
A ship built for space combat as primary or exclusively, will have provisions to lock down the crew and a fairly high level of automation because otherwise you don't need all that thrust-you won't be able to use it.
plotting the intercept at turnover (for a fast invasion force, the one point they MUST stop accelerating and hold constant velocity) is predictable-all you need is good telescopes and high school math, and something you can scramble to arrange to GET THERE (Preferably something designed for sustained high acceleration, like missiles, or some dropship models, or some warship models right out of the book...or those little things that carry alamos...fighters, I think they're called...)
Interception is only 'difficult' because of orders or training. This is basic sublight navigation stuff every cargo-hauler would know and understand and every system patrol vessel would practice to deal with emergencies in peacetime.
Stone issued orders that made it impossible with the ships he had. Maybe it was impossible anyway, because they were Castrums or other pokey-slow can't-leave-close-orbit designs pinned in place because they can't handle the job of doing anything more than sitting in orbit as expensive orbital gun platforms.
Upshot goes back to what I've said though: there is nothing to give a Wolf Officer any respect for the Republic's Naval Arm, or their equipment, that would justify KEEPING ANYTHING EXCEPT The relic, ex-Star League warships.
Clan sources have superior designs that were used intelligently enough to show their superiority already, and Clan Wolf has them on their touman, already *Plus any ex-Jade Falcon ships.
Think like a Clanner for a moment, and ask if you'd use systems with no sign of being equal to what you're giving your second line troops, merely because they were reparable when they surrendered.
At no point did I ask about Clan Wolf. I asked about the Republic Navy. If I wanted to talk about Wolf space assets, I'd go to the Wolf thread.
I'll ask again: Given the amount of Clantech the Republic either built or had access to towards the end, does it seem reasonable that at least some of the RAF's Claymore V3 DropShips might have been upgraded to the Interceptor configuration?
apologies, Weirdo, I misinterpreted your question. The answer is...maybe? Performance doesn't suggest it, but that could be user insufficiency as opposed to hardware defect, but just as easily it could be refusal to invest in an arm that the leadership considered vestigal at best, given tighter resources thanks to Fortress Wall.
IOW the plans might've been there on a shelf gathering dust because Levin or Stone (or Levin AND Stone) wanted those assets purposed to the ground fight and there wasn't enough production budget for both (along with training budgets for maintenance, use, etc.).
remember; a Battlemech or ground vehicle with fusion power only needs to be topped up once a century with Hydrogen. A fighter burns through fuel every time it does anything, and likewise for Dropships, the assets to deliver said fuel cost money, which is another way of saying require resources and manpower that may well have been enough out of shape with The Grand Strategy of fighting the war on the ground on Earth, that they were not seen as vital enough to be devoted to an update when the current gear isn't horribly broken, and the high command doesn't anticipate needing it right away.
In a sense, you can equate Devlin Stone's grand strategy to letting a gang of home invaders cross the whole of his forty acre farm, break down his front door, enter the house, and he's intending to fight it out with them in the bedroom with no available exits...for the person in the bedroom.
because that's essentially his plan laid out in 'people scale terms'.
right down to telling them where they can cut holes the fence for fastest crossing.
Generally if you're gonna be attacked and you KNOW It, you don't wait for the assailants on the toilet with your pistol, you hit them in the driveway with the rifles and shotgun if you can-if for no other reason than to thin them out a little bit before they break the door down.
Stone's whole 'Strategy' was to bring the fight into his most vulnerable point, where he would have no advantages, and rely on his legendary status to win it.
so much for legends and legendary status.
The mind-blowing part for me and a lot of other observers, is that RAF Professionals Bought this Plan.
entirely.
They didn't even question it.
That said, while what you propose would be smart, it may not have been smart enough to get past the blinders and it may well have as a result, ended up at the bottom of the 'to do list' after Stone's glorious victory over the Clans.
the victory that didn't happen, because he specifically set himself and his nation up to be defeated.
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But it's a pretty solid bet that "Unknown class" is a Dropship, not a warship.
This basically summarizes every conversation about RotS in one go. It’s not a solid bet. It’s you making broad assumptions to fit the conclusion you made
I’ll take a look once I’m back in the correct state where I can check for the ships
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If I know where your origin point is, I know how long it's going to take you to bring ground troops to the ground, because I know how long it's going to take you to move there at one gee by the shortest route from that origin.
{snip}
Interception is only 'difficult' because of orders or training. This is basic sublight navigation stuff every cargo-hauler would know and understand and every system patrol vessel would practice to deal with emergencies in peacetime.
Except in the post Star League BTU, interception is not something that is easy to do. If it was, then a drop ship would never make it to the ground, and the setting falls apart.
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I do have PDFs of FM 3145 and ilClan available to me here at work and FM 3145 does make it pretty clear the Republic only had three Warships at the time.
ilClan doesn't call out classes in the battle description so it is tough to answer for sure as this would not be the first time a Source Book referred to a Jumpship or Dropship as a Warship.
But as far as what the Republic destroys:
Bloody Fang I will count despite being scuttled.
CWS Rogue.
Everything else is a Dropship of some sort, ASF, or Battlearmor.
Reading the battle description I'm not sure how the RAF's Abundantia survived the fight it is said to have gotten into.
But yeah they lost Triumphus and Auspicium. So of the three ships we know for sure the RAF had two were destroyed.
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I'm interested in your source for some of the ones you have a class for...I used (and linked!) a source that gets updated pretty regularly and it ain't changed since HoTW was announced, much less put to print.
But it's a pretty solid bet that "Unknown class" is a Dropship, not a warship.
When you have conflicting sources, you use only the information you can match between them unless or until you get clarification. it's been a year or more, no clarifications to support YOUR claim have appeared. The Clan warship casualties line up with inter-CLAN fighting in the orbitals, not with Republic Naval actions.
Well, let's take a crack at this then, shall we?
HotW, page 32: RSS Shield of the Republic [another ship to add to the list you provided, Church!] referred to by Star Admiral Sukhanov as a WarShip, Essex class (also on pg 23)
HotW, page 81: RSS Fire of the Republic ordered to disengage from Falcon DropShips; ilClan advises that this particular action resulted in no losses for the Republic WarShips involved. Ergo, Fire of the Republic is a WarShip, unknown class.
HotW, page 31: RSS Gladius Terrae referred to as a WarShip, unknown class.
ilClan, page 15: RSS Gladius Terrae referred to as a WarShip, unknown class.
ilClan, pages 34-35: "[Task Force] Atilla had rendered two Falcon WarShips combat ineffective without losing any of his WarShips in the exchange", named vessels present include Abundantia, Gladius Terrae, Glory of the Republic and Fire of the Republic, implying that some or all of these are WarShips (Abundantia is the only one we have loads of references to being a WarShip, so at least one other vessel listed here is also a WarShip).
Couldn't find any solid reference to the Glory of the Republic, but logic dictates that it probably falls in line with the other "______ of the Republic" vessels that ARE confirmed to be WarShips.
There are also no named Republic DropShips anywhere in either book that I can find.
So maybe check your own sources before you so confidently tell Church that nothing supports his claim.
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Well, let's take a crack at this then, shall we?
HotW, page 32: RSS Shield of the Republic [another ship to add to the list you provided, Church!] referred to by Star Admiral Sukhanov as a WarShip, Essex class (also on pg 23)
HotW, page 81: RSS Fire of the Republic ordered to disengage from Falcon DropShips; ilClan advises that this particular action resulted in no losses for the Republic WarShips involved. Ergo, Fire of the Republic is a WarShip, unknown class.
HotW, page 31: RSS Gladius Terrae referred to as a WarShip, unknown class.
ilClan, page 15: RSS Gladius Terrae referred to as a WarShip, unknown class.
Couldn't find any solid reference to the Glory of the Republic, but logic dictates that it probably falls in line with the other "______ of the Republic" vessels that ARE confirmed to be WarShips.
So maybe check your own sources before you so confidently tell Church that nothing supports his claim.
Zero argument that without a doubt we can confirm a fourth Warship.
While I agree it is highly probable the other two you mention are actual game mechanical WarShips, I will again repeat it would not be the first time a naming convention has been screwed up and a not WarShip been called a WarShip.
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While I agree it is highly probable the other two you mention are actual game mechanical WarShips, I will again repeat it would not be the first time a naming convention has been screwed up and a not WarShip been called a WarShip.
The problem with that is the evidence does not lean in the direction of any of these vessels being DropShips. The prose in HotW and references in ilClan pretty clearly demarcate them as WarShips. Assuming that what's printed is wrong is not the basis for a solid analysis here.
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This basically summarizes every conversation about RotS in one go. It’s not a solid bet. It’s you making broad assumptions to fit the conclusion you made
I’ll take a look once I’m back in the correct state where I can check for the ships
Hey, I LINKED my sources.
Things the Devs have been explicit about: "NO NEW WARSHIPS".
we know this. It's been a bone of contention for an entire segement of the community for years.
We have a source showing names of ships, and we have a pretty good estimation of class/type of ships. You gave a list of "Class unknown"-that means "not significant enough to name the class, but it has a scene it shows up in".
well, Warships are irreplaceable, If I presume you're being honest in that listing, you have a source, and that source doesn't name it..
but...
but.
We DO know, the RoTS heavily invested in PWS-which is to say, heavier-than-average assault dropships.
We have classes for THEM, and we even see that they're employed as main-line units by the RoTS Navy in the TRO entry for the Castrum class.
You follow?
(We also have two others types of PWS that are headliner Republic exclusives.)
This lines up, look at the names. Would a Royalist force like the SLDF, or Religious Extremist like the Word of Blake, name their warship Republic, or would the proud Republic of the Sphere name their brand-new Castrum class dropship Republic for propaganda value if nothing else?
Think like a political figure, not a fan.
Which do you think is more likely, especially with a new nation that badly needs more symbols than one man?
Keep in mind, present-tense nobody has built a new warship since the fall of the Word of Blake.
Hell, nobody restored their fleets after the Jihad, most of the Yards weren't recovered so nobody has the capability [minus the Sea Foxes and maybe Terra-who won't for political reasons].
The context fits, it fits with both the performance (whether you like it or not, BLP's ravings are canon now, they don't 'do' takebacks) and the outcome.
Your position isn't logical, it's emotional, you WANT them to have been better than they objectively were, and you don't WANT to accept that they were set up to get that outcome, probably before you started playing if you came in with MWDA.
There are just too many 'holes' in the setting, I grant that-where WERE the ex-WoB hardware, why did Stone rely on the same defensive 'strategy' that lost the Sol system in every prior conflict-only with less stuff? Where IS the logic in setting things up the way he did-because it's not good strategy and it does not make sense even to a mediocre strategist?
We address with what we can confirm and extrapolate from what we can check. That's how you break it down and figure out what and where it went wrong.
Bitching about a contract writer who wrote what he was told to, is not accomplishing that, nor is resorting to wishful thinking and shoulda' beens.
Thing is, you noted absences that are notable-the RoTS should have had enough to handle two Clans, or delay them once past the wall, bled them out on the way in...didn't.
WHY??
Where is that stuff? well, if this fall of Terra were being staged not as 'the final humiliation' but instead as 'act one'? That's your source for a Terran Republic Liberation Front.
A real challenge on the back-end for Alaric's Ever Victorious Wolves. "you've taken it, now you gotta keep it".
and, incidentally, a reason for Alaric to want the Snow Ravens on-side that isn't already guaranteed to lose in another humiliating way-Daoshen is staged to lose, he might make some noise first, but he's been set up to be defeated in an equally humiliating way from about the point that the writers decided he was inbred and crazy.
It's completely predictable, it's not even exciting anymore when you telegraph the designated loser that thoroughly.
Not even good Kayfabe.
but, that does leave an opening until they seal it shut...
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Things the Devs have been explicit about: "NO NEW WARSHIPS".
we know this. It's been a bone of contention for an entire segement of the community for years.
The Bears' new Leviathan III says hi.
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Well, let's take a crack at this then, shall we?
HotW, page 32: RSS Shield of the Republic [another ship to add to the list you provided, Church!] referred to by Star Admiral Sukhanov as a WarShip, Essex class (also on pg 23)
HotW, page 81: RSS Fire of the Republic ordered to disengage from Falcon DropShips; ilClan advises that this particular action resulted in no losses for the Republic WarShips involved. Ergo, Fire of the Republic is a WarShip, unknown class.
HotW, page 31: RSS Gladius Terrae referred to as a WarShip, unknown class.
ilClan, page 15: RSS Gladius Terrae referred to as a WarShip, unknown class.
ilClan, pages 34-35: "[Task Force] Atilla had rendered two Falcon WarShips combat ineffective without losing any of his WarShips in the exchange", named vessels present include Abundantia, Gladius Terrae, Glory of the Republic and Fire of the Republic, implying that some or all of these are WarShips (Abundantia is the only one we have loads of references to being a WarShip, so at least one other vessel listed here is also a WarShip).
Couldn't find any solid reference to the Glory of the Republic, but logic dictates that it probably falls in line with the other "______ of the Republic" vessels that ARE confirmed to be WarShips.
There are also no named Republic DropShips anywhere in either book that I can find.
So maybe check your own sources before you so confidently tell Church that nothing supports his claim.
Lets add some more.
RSS Abundantia, Essex Class, ilClan pg 14
RSS Redemption, Quixote Class, ilClan pg 55
Taking the count to what now? Gotta be more than three.
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More.
RSS Abundantia, Essex Class, ilClan pg 14
RSS Redemption, Quixote Class, ilClan pg 55
Oh, I skipped those because you'd already listed them. I was trying to find references to the ones that weren't already confirmed by class.
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The Bears' new Leviathan III says hi.
The Ravens are also explicitly laying down new corvette hulls in the Leviathan III's XTRO entry if I'm remembering my disparate unheralded plot threads correctly.
EDIT: at the risk of sounding like I'm coming in swinging, Cannonshop's argument seems to boil down to "lack of evidence is evidence of lack" which is trivially disproven first by the, er, evidence presented and second by the entire thing being a logical fallacy from the first word. I don't think there's much else to be done on the topic that won't end up going in pointless circles.
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The Ravens are also explicitly laying down new corvette hulls in the Leviathan III's XTRO entry if I'm remembering my disparate unheralded plot threads correctly.
No mention of corvettes, only "rumors of further construction at Quatre Belle". And the tone of the entry implies that the Ravens might be building a Leviathan III of their own.
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The problem with that is the evidence does not lean in the direction of any of these vessels being DropShips. The prose in HotW and references in ilClan pretty clearly demarcate them as WarShips. Assuming that what's printed is wrong is not the basis for a solid analysis here.
If it were not for the other instances where such a mistake has been made before I'd be 100% on board.
Ultimately what would be great is if they had done a bit more detailing in the ilClan sourcebook so we could settle this. Hopefully we'll get a scenario book or something.
Bottom line is though it unfortunately still leaves Church's list three ships stronger than even your own evidence supports.
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Bottom line is though it unfortunately still leaves Church's list three ships stronger than even your own evidence supports.
No it doesn't. I was specifically excluding the ships Church listed that were already confirmed as WarShips and only addressing the ones that weren't.
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This seems like something that is trivially if not quickly put firmly to rest by a thread in Ask the Writers.
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Here's where we stand now:
Abundantia - Essex
Gladius Terrae - Unknown but explicitly referred to as WarShip (HotW page 31, ilClan page 15)
Glory of the Republic - Unknown, evidence suggests WarShip (ilClan pages 34-35)
Fire of the Republic - Unknown, evidence suggests WarShip (ilClan pages 34-35)
Shield of the Republic - Essex
Dolabra - Unknown (no clear references, only that it performed a ramming attack)
Ciaravella - Unknown (no clear references but MIGHT be an assault DropShip per HotW page 158: "The crew of the Ciaravella was more than ready for a fight, and the other five assault DropShips were still stinging from the first skirmish with the invading Clans." However, no other assault Dropper is explicitly named, and every other ship in this snippet of dialogue was a WarShip, so it could go either way)
Triumphus - Lola III
Auspicium - Aegis
Redemption - Quixote
So at bare minimum, the Republic fielded six confirmed WarShips during HotW/ilClan, one of which we don't know the class.
This seems like something that is trivially if not quickly put firmly to rest by a thread in Ask the Writers.
Done and done. Thank you for the suggestion.
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Here's where we stand now:
Abundantia - Essex
Gladius Terrae - Unknown, referred to as WarShip (HotW page 31, ilClan page 15)
Glory of the Republic - Unknown, evidence suggests WarShip (ilClan pages 34-35)
Fire of the Republic - Unknown, evidence suggests WarShip (ilClan pages 34-35)
Shield of the Republic - Essex
Dolabra - Unknown (no clear references, only that it performed a ramming attack)
Ciaravella - Unknown (no clear references but MIGHT be an assault DropShip per HotW page 158: "The crew of the Ciaravella was more than ready for a fight, and the other five assault DropShips were still stinging from the first skirmish with the invading Clans." However, no other assault Dropper is explicitly named, and every other ship in this snippet of dialogue was a WarShip, so it could go either way)
Triumphus - Lola III
Auspicium - Aegis
Redemption - Quixote
So at bare minimum, the Republic fielded six confirmed WarShips during HotW/ilClan, one of which we don't know the class.
Done and done. Thank you for the suggestion.
I do hope someday we get a clearer answer on the Redemption, at least last I knew there was still some mystery about if it used to be the TCS Redemption or if it just happens to share a lot of details.
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Hey, I LINKED my sources.
You might want to recheck that link.
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I do hope someday we get a clearer answer on the Redemption, at least last I knew there was still some mystery about if it used to be the TCS Redemption or if it just happens to share a lot of details.
Yeah the Redemption is sort of iffy. If that is the TCS Redemption that according to Ilclan Trial should have been destroyed during the death ride of the RAF Navy against the Falcons. But in Dominions divided it is stated that the Redemption is doing it's thing in the Calderon Protectorate (or rather it is mentioned the ship is patrolling). Of course given how slow news travel it might be that the Redemption was really hijacked and the Protectorate is keeping it under wraps to not invite unwanted attention to their realm.
And the three unmarked / unclassified Warships of the Republic: a wild theory from me. Could those have been the three remaining Faslane Yardships retrofitted with more armor and weapons? The Republic had those 3 ships in mothball. The Newgrange ship Mercy is nothing more then a floating trash heap if the FM 3145 is to be blieved and the 3 Faslanes were mothballed. Soooo it might have been a way to increase the Warship count by stripping those of their yard capabilities and add armor and weapons (ammunition storages or even hangar bays for fighters) to create some form of crude Warship. Which would be an asset against most IS powers though someone forgot to calculate the rather "big" fleets of the Clans into it.
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This seems like something that is trivially if not quickly put firmly to rest by a thread in Ask the Writers.
Already done weeks ago.
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Warspite was one of the Warships, which unfortunately meet a premature death due to fluff wiring issues. Dumb way loose a ship. (sigh)
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Doesn't Malvina's chief Star Admiral ask if she wanted to wait on the warships under construction in the heart of the OZ? IIRC the text implied one was a replacement for the Nightlord Malvina played lawn darts with?
Besides, it was previous Devs who went around smooshing warships and ones they forgot about were administratively wrecked.
With that said, do not give one to the FedSuns . . . unless you build a warship version of the Scorpion's Rhino battlemech.
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You just talked about the Falcons using ramming tactics with a warship, and then switch to pretending only the Suns do it? Seriously?
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The Suns have a... reputation for ramming with warships. By contrast Malvina simply had a reputation for using whatever she thought would cause mass murder.
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A dumb reputation that relies on willful ignorance to other factions using ramming tactics as well
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The Emerald Talon was not a ramming attack . . . she de-orbited the warship so it would crash into a city of enemies. Out of all the warship actions we get in fiction, the Davions are the ones that ram . . . Excalibur PWS (before it was a thing) into a Katherine aligned Avalon class at Kathil, Covenant rammed another Avalon on it's way to New Syrtis and I think a few more . . . TF Serpent had one?
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This sure is a cool conversation about the Republic we're having.
Is there any major difference between equipment one might find in a RAF line regiment and a local militia/standing guard unit? Either pre-Blackout or post.
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This sure is a cool conversation about the Republic we're having.
Is there any major difference between equipment one might find in a RAF line regiment and a local militia/standing guard unit? Either pre-Blackout or post.
Didn’t the FM3145 tables have modifiers for those various units?
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The Standing guards are equipped with whatever the planetary goverment can buy. So if you have a rich planet you might find some top of the line Battlemechs (though of course RAf line units have first pick on the production runs) though from what I understand is that Mech units in Standing Guards are rare (you might see some old units which were bought from private citizens during the military redmeption program in most Standing guards and they might usually be piloted by the commander). If the planet is less well of you find the usual tanks and support vehicles (though rather the cheap ones not expensive front line tanks). Think especially the Giggins should be a common sight in Standing Guards as well as in line regiments.
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Didn’t the FM3145 tables have modifiers for those various units?
That's a useful reminder. I was somewhat hoping for something more general but I can draw some basic conclusions from those.
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I've been looking at those RATs lately, and was highly amused to see that militia-grade aero wings can theoretically roll
StrigasSimurghs. Probably won't use those specific birds, but it gives me some fun ideas for building an Ilclan-era Belter fighter militia. :)
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The Standing Guard definitely had access to high tech. I'm pretty sure they used Mad Cat III's in a few of the novels
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The Standing Guard definitely had access to high tech. I'm pretty sure they used Mad Cat III's in a few of the novels
Which novel was that? In the Archenar novel we have a Legionaire as the sole Mech, then there is a museum piece Centurion in another. The novel on Wyatt has one single Panther in the Standing Guard. Though the Guard has lots of battle armor like the Hauberk in the novels
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I could of sworn one of the later ones had Clan 'Mechs, but they might have been the Prefect's personal 'Mechs
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If we go by the lore from FM3085 the Standing guards size can vary from planet to planet. So some well off planets might have cutting edge machines. And if the Prefect or Legate is a retired Mechwarrior who brings his own Mech you might get some variety as well
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This sure is a cool conversation about the Republic we're having.
Is there any major difference between equipment one might find in a RAF line regiment and a local militia/standing guard unit? Either pre-Blackout or post.
From what I can recall from the various Dark Age novels, we're looking at a lot more regional variations in Standing Guard units; they're more likely to have locally flavoured equipment to where they border (so, for e.g., Cavalier, Grey Death Standard or Raiden battlesuits for Standing Guard along the FedSuns, Lyran or Kurtian adjacent prefectures respectively,while line RAF units mainly, IIRC, favour Clan-designed models in addition to home-built models, Gnomes and Clan Battle Armor (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Battle_Armor); IIRC the Liao Standing Guard had a significant number of Fa Shih suits at least in storage according to By Temptations And By War, but it's been a while since I read that one so I might be misremembering).
Proportionately higher numbers of 'Mechs in line units, too, and a lot more likely to be modern ones (although, well, nothing's guaranteed on the tech level front; the Achernar Standing Guard maintained a pair of modern Legionnaires as of A Call To Arms).
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You just talked about the Falcons using ramming tactics with a warship, and then switch to pretending only the Suns do it? Seriously?
They DO have a reputation, (mostly caused by overuse of Ramming in the novels simultaneous with a fedsuns focus, particularly the FCCW Civil War arc and Jihad era).
but I think he might've been referencing the AFFS/FSN habit of sending a lone warship into contested airspace, putting it right into the interphase and forcing it to hang there blind to try doing CAS. (See: FSS Lucien Davion, Avalon Class, for details, pay particular attention to a little system named "Palmyra".)
AKA Federated Suns "Naval Doctrine" tends to obsess over finding new ways to die dramatic, yet pointless deaths combined with losing the objective. This includes things like ramming and unsupported close-orbital bombardments, but it's not limited to those.
It's just something that, until they can find a writer who knows what to do with a warship besides suicidal, stupid, or excessive acts, is going to be common.
You can thank Anime Fandom for a lot of it...but not all of it. An excessively large portion of the problem traces right back to "Okay, we need something Big and Dramatic!! I know! We'll Crash/ram/blow up/shoot down a Warship to show the other guy is SERIOUS!!"
Malvina rammed a planet to make sure readers understood she was unhinged but meant business.
So ya gotta separate what someone did for cheap drama points, versus what you'd actually do with the stuff if you were in control.
Thing is, there's no reason NOT to build a capital warship that is basically carved out of a block of SI and armor, because all those niggling things that REAL warships would have to deal with (needing to keep supplies on hand, refueling, duration of cruises, etc etc.) don't make it to the tabletop, what makes it to the tabletop, is when both sides are stationary to one another, and standing in each other's boots (on the interstellar scale). At that point, maneuverability, endurance and such just aren't factors. It's all armor and how many guns you can slap on.
They just don't have any way to model things like Strategic Mobility...which is good, because it allows PWS to be effective combat units in a general sense, at the tabletop.
Y'know, the part that actually matters to designing the game.
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Does anyone else see the irony in the Republic thread constantly being invaded by off-topic tangents? I guess art really does imitate life. :laugh:
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If only there were more Paladins....
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It's that Charisma requirement that does them in, Kit. 17 and 18 on a 3d6 is like 4% or so?
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Does anyone else see the irony in the Republic thread constantly being invaded by off-topic tangents? I guess art really does imitate life. :laugh:
It's not just this thread. Anything tied into what Alaric is doing on Terra will spin carefree off into the void. I feel that until we know at leas some of the fates of the post Alaric, surviving Republicans, any RotS thread is going to be all Clan Wolf all the Time.
Which in part goes to show, that the Republic's story isn't quite over yet.
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If only there were more Paladins....
Tanks got 'em all.
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As a reminder, literally everybody on this forum is allowed to press the Report to Moderators button and report a post for threadjacking if they feel it has gone beyond normal thread drift. It doesn't guarantee we'll step in, but it does guarantee we'll look at it and give it a proper discussion.
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If only there were more Paladins....
I think maybe too many paladins was part of the problem. Stone basically set up a constitutional monarchy where there was no House of Commons, only a House of Lords and then a selection of Mandarins who acted as Legislator/Judge/Jury/Executioner.
This, I think, made the problems he was trying to solve Oh so much worse.
He built a system that lacked Resilience-it could react very quickly, but only in a way that meant every action was, at the heart of it, brittle to sustained stress...and not very good at self-repair or avoiding self-damage.
which might help explain how the Republic of the Sphere could, in what seemed and felt like mere moments after the HPGs' went down, fall into a multisided civil war instead of going into problem-solving mode to keep the economy and communications going and maintain actual order inside their own border.
Note that with all those Paladins, none of them seemed to have this idea in mind with anything like serious consideration to details like "How to administrate things so they don't come apart at the seams".
(*that may be a bit harsh, but it struck me again that the first move of most of the ones we saw, was reactively stacking bodies instead of addressing grievances or getting people to settle the ****** down....)
maybe I'm reading the situation wrong. I don't know.
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As a reminder, literally everybody on this forum is allowed to press the Report to Moderators button and report a post for threadjacking if they feel it has gone beyond normal thread drift. It doesn't guarantee we'll step in, but it does guarantee we'll look at it and give it a proper discussion.
as the guy who started this thread, I'm glad there's conversation ongoing about the Republic even if it's only tangetially related.
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I think maybe too many paladins was part of the problem. Stone basically set up a constitutional monarchy where there was no House of Commons, only a House of Lords and then a selection of Mandarins who acted as Legislator/Judge/Jury/Executioner.
I think he actually set up two Houses of lords: the Paladin council and the Senate. The Senate was only open for nobles while Paladins could come from all walks of life but had way more power then the senators. Plus the Senate, while having the power to make laws and also control certain aspects of the Republic was still "subservient" to the Exarch. From the lore Stone and Lear actually wanted to elimante the nobles completly from the power structures (like they did on Kittery at the beginning) but as pointed out before they had to placate the nobles within their realm so they created the Senate to give those people the feeling they were valuable.
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I think he actually set up two Houses of lords: the Paladin council and the Senate. The Senate was only open for nobles while Paladins could come from all walks of life but had way more power then the senators. Plus the Senate, while having the power to make laws and also control certain aspects of the Republic was still "subservient" to the Exarch. From the lore Stone and Lear actually wanted to elimante the nobles completly from the power structures (like they did on Kittery at the beginning) but as pointed out before they had to placate the nobles within their realm so they created the Senate to give those people the feeling they were valuable.
The Paladin Councils feels more like the Exarch holding Court than a legislative body. Maybe a Privy or Small Council.
The Republic had essentially the same governmental model Late Eastern Roman Empire (right before the 630s). Head of state proclaimed by the army, with deference to the designated Heir. Individual Cities (Planets) maintain their own local government and local militias. Paladins are like the generals of the field armies and Knights being the front line imperial agents and garrison commanders. The Senate being almost exactly the same, a body of the local nobility, but ultimately serving the head of state.
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The Paladin Councils feels more like the Exarch holding Court than a legislative body. Maybe a Privy or Small Council.
That's exactly how FM3085 describes the Paladins, as an advisory council to the Exarch. They aren't a legislative body; they're extensions of the Exarch's direct authority.
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The laws were made in the Senate and then passed to the Exarch for ratification. The Senate had power in the sense of controlling certain aspects but the Exarch could always veto it. But yes the Paladins were supposed to be the council for the Exarch. This was also a reason the Senators tried to insert their own men into this group (and even succeded with Gareth Sinclair though he proved to be a man loyal to the Republic not the Senate)
On a different note:
Could the Republic have survived with the state it was in at Field Manual 3145? At that point the wall probably has a life expectancy of 5-6 years? The factories are running at full speed though critical resources are emptied and only slowly replenished. The Standing Guards have been folded into the regular military with no intention of rebuilding them. The nominal allies (the Lyrans and Suns) are in bad shape. While Stone is back, raising morale there is only so much he can do. What would have been abetter course then crashing down the Wall and then wasting all that manpower for nothing?
Let's take this scenario: Stone still allies with Julian but instead of bringing down the Wall he launches Eruptio from the safety behind it. This might entice some to try their luck only to waste precious men and material (I assume the wall can be crossed by a huge taskforce if said force has the knowhow). Meanwhile Eruptio achieves the results from Shattered Fortress freeing up a good chunk of the Draconis March before safely withdrawing behind the wall giving RAF troops a much needed experience boost (of course there is a risk of loosing the literal key to the castle). Also, the Republic now begins shipping some of their surplus to the Suns (perhaps with the condition on using it to spook the Capellans) giving Julian the means to outfit more soldiers (while Julian was in a ceasefire false flag raids should be possible as long as they can avoid capture)
In return the Suns begin providing some resources of their own (and perhaps even some volunteers) Would that be a viable plan?
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That's exactly how FM3085 describes the Paladins, as an advisory council to the Exarch. They aren't a legislative body; they're extensions of the Exarch's direct authority.
Which, in effect, is legislator/judge/jury/executioner, with only the Exarch to appeal to directly if a Paladin (or small group of them) decides to abuse their authority.
as I said, "mandarins", since they are effectively above the law if the Exarch chooses to ignore (*or is not informed of) their actions.
This creates significant problems if your goal is to instill a rule of law or national identity, because under rule of law, process trumps personality-states htat have a tradition of Rule of Law don't give State Functionaries what amounts to a blank cheque where the only check on their power, is a single man whom is probably busy.
Now, most Paladins shown in the fiction have been ethical, moral, decent, human beings with integrity, but this is a bit like running your snack area at work on the Honor system-it only works out, if people are, in fact, honorable beyond what is seen in public.
Not everyone is, and the more power is involved, with less oversight, the more likely someone prone t abusing it is going to work very hard to obtain it. Power attracts the corrupt, as does freedom from oversight.
There is no system free from corruption, but some systems have better counters and checks on it, than others. The structure of the Repbublic, with an enervated legislature and mandarins, in the long term invites the kind of corruption that collapses empires. When the Western Empire failed for the last time, Roman Citizens cheered the invaders.
that's not a joke. That's what actually happened. The Byzantines lasted a few more centuries, but their collapse, as well, was the result of their system's being eaten from the inside. The Muslim invaders only applied the last kick when Constantinople fell-the byzantine empire was already in a condition of failure when the walls were battered down.
It's a structural thing. Stone's Republic was trying to reduce the influence of the Nobility, by creating an unanswerable nobility-which is more along the lines of a Bureaucratic Class that can write regulations, change regs, interpret them, and enforce them in the name of a singular 'king', with only trust in their ethics and integrity to hold them back from abusing that power.
basically 'hoping they'll stay clean' when the boss isn't looking over their shoulder.
That's not a recipe for domestic stability or structural integrity for your government.
These are people who got the job, by being seen and impressing the boss. That means they're all going to be extremely focused on their own advancement and on retaining that power. Ambitious people, with few to no checks on what they can do if the boss either doesn't know, or says yes.
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... I was just agreeing with Geg, not looking for an unsolicited lesson on what Paladins do. I have the same books you do. :wink:
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Now, most Paladins shown in the fiction have been ethical, moral, decent, human beings with integrity, but this is a bit like running your snack area at work on the Honor system-it only works out, if people are, in fact, honorable beyond what is seen in public.
In the real world, you’d be right. But real world logic often doesn’t apply to many of the governments of the setting. Clan trial system doesn’t actually select for good leaders, but good warriors with the assumption that those will be the good leaders. That the clans have actually had a multitude of impressive khans defies their system. So while you’re right if the real world applies, this is fantasy and somehow, it works.
Most of the governments in the setting would collapse if real world logic applied.
It's a structural thing. Stone's Republic was trying to reduce the influence of the Nobility, by creating an unanswerable nobility-which is more along the lines of a Bureaucratic Class that can write regulations, change regs, interpret them, and enforce them in the name of a singular 'king', with only trust in their ethics and integrity to hold them back from abusing that power.
Nitpick, but it would be more accurate to call it a nearly unaccountable, self selecting meritocracy. Which, real world, hoooooo boy ripe for corruption and wouldn’t really be a meritocracy for long. But again, fantasy, and it somehow worked.
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In the real world, you’d be right. But real world logic often doesn’t apply to many of the governments of the setting. Clan trial system doesn’t actually select for good leaders, but good warriors with the assumption that those will be the good leaders. That the clans have actually had a multitude of impressive khans defies their system. So while you’re right if the real world applies, this is fantasy and somehow, it works.
Most of the governments in the setting would collapse if real world logic applied.
Nitpick, but it would be more accurate to call it a nearly unaccountable, self selecting meritocracy. Which, real world, hoooooo boy ripe for corruption and wouldn’t really be a meritocracy for long. But again, fantasy, and it somehow worked.
Well there are sveral indstances where a good warrior leads his clan into nearly doom *cough* Asa Taney *cough* but at the same time the trial system also seems to be able to compensate at one point.
And yeah the Paladins seem to be unaccountable for their corrupt ways. It is somewhat incredible that we only had one real bad Paladin (Ezekiel Crow aka Daniel Peterson) while the others all seem to be upright even Anders Kessel who is noted to be more of a politician then a warrior. But we should also note that the majority of the Paladins were elected under Stone so it could be that his personality basically made sure they found fitting Paladins. We only have handful of Paladins elected under Redburn and Levin (Lakewood, Sinclair, Zou) and all three were upright and loyal to the Republic
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In the real world, you’d be right. But real world logic often doesn’t apply to many of the governments of the setting. Clan trial system doesn’t actually select for good leaders, but good warriors with the assumption that those will be the good leaders. That the clans have actually had a multitude of impressive khans defies their system. So while you’re right if the real world applies, this is fantasy and somehow, it works.
Most of the governments in the setting would collapse if real world logic applied.
What other logic (other than 'Being the Author') would apply then? Please note, we're discussing a state that was in failure mode when it first appeared in a game product. We the audience never got to experience the Republic actually being a functioning society-all of that was held off-stage, and this despite it, as you've pointed out previously, existing for 20 out of the last 40 years real-time.
The Clans? are a separate issue with their hothouse flower of a society. It might be argued that they'd left with the best information sources and researchers of the old Terran Hegemony and Star League, and managed to spend three centuries making tiny incremental improvements on what they looted before they left. We're not here to discuss the Clans, as Tassa keeps pointing out to me (I think Tassa's mostly pointing it out in response to me, but it could be someone else that irritates them instead...though I doubt it. I'm the most annoying person here.)
but if we're not going to use realistic analysis of the Republic's government, culture, economy, etc., and we can't use realistic or even rational examination of their military or how it could reasonably lose as badly as it did with the fall, what's left, Church?
What is 'okay to talk about' and think about?
Nitpick, but it would be more accurate to call it a nearly unaccountable, self selecting meritocracy. Which, real world, hoooooo boy ripe for corruption and wouldn’t really be a meritocracy for long. But again, fantasy, and it somehow worked.
and the question I raise, is "Did it really work?" think about how we in the audience were introduced to the Republic-a massive, multi-sided civil war in the middle of a national crisis.
Whose definition of 'Functional' is that?? How well did that system actually work if your legislators think they have to stage a coup to save the nation, and your unanswerable super-civil-servants think stacking bodies is somehow less damaging than negotiation? what kind of conditions have to exist for Levin and company to be right about that?
was it really 'working' or was it 'delaying'? Did prior fixes make the final collapse...possibly worse?
In a mindset where the ends justified the means, did the Means used, guarantee the ends sought would be impossible?
The worst sort of corruption, is the well-meaning kind, the sort done in absolute confidence that whatever they're doing is for the right reasons, or the right cause, and that assumes the future will agree that it was 'necessary'.
They staffed death camps with guards that way in the real world. Multiple times. Nothing enables destructive evil like the idea that you're doing 'good', that a cause is 'righteous', and that the descendants of your victims will thank you.
Heck, that's largely how the Master and Word of Blake operated in the fiction.
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What other logic (other than 'Being the Author') would apply then?
Honesty, the collapse of the Republic is so inconsistent, powered by the plot demands outside of what makes sense, with wild whiplash between what the plot was demanding that trying to rip logic from the narrative chaos is… challenging.
Okay, so introduced as a whole, immediately has breakaway factions when Comms cut. Then we see it in FM3145 as an entity getting its shit together behind the Fortress. Ignore SF and HotW for a moment and FM3145 looks like the start of a Republic Revival. They are on a back foot, but they hold a solid economic core and all their units should be repaired and ready. The people weren’t happy, but Stone was rallying them. They’ve got the best training in the sphere, some of the best equipment, and will have the advantage of being able to to purely on offense from here on out.
Shattered fortress just does a 180, collapses the wall, and starts a nonstop losing streak. This comes out of left field without really much justification. Remember that basically all the limits of the wall were added in Shattered Fortress to justify the new right angle of the story. One book took the republic from “losing, but rallying” to “in complete strategic collapse.”
Things that worked suddenly didn’t, then worked again, then didn’t, and units that had been competent suddenly suffered 100% losing streak. There really isn’t a logical story here
And I didn’t say you can’t try to apply real world logic and point out how things wouldn’t really work. I’m pointing out that a lot of things in the setting are allowed to just work without logic or any sense justifying it.
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The Republic wasn't the only victim of shifting development leadership behind the scenes, but it was certainly the biggest one.
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Honesty, the collapse of the Republic is so inconsistent, powered by the plot demands outside of what makes sense, with wild whiplash between what the plot was demanding that trying to rip logic from the narrative chaos is… challenging.
Okay, so introduced as a whole, immediately has breakaway factions when Comms cut. Then we see it in FM3145 as an entity getting its shit together behind the Fortress. Ignore SF and HotW for a moment and FM3145 looks like the start of a Republic Revival. They are on a back foot, but they hold a solid economic core and all their units should be repaired and ready. The people weren’t happy, but Stone was rallying them. They’ve got the best training in the sphere, some of the best equipment, and will have the advantage of being able to to purely on offense from here on out.
Shattered fortress just does a 180, collapses the wall, and starts a nonstop losing streak. This comes out of left field without really much justification. Remember that basically all the limits of the wall were added in Shattered Fortress to justify the new right angle of the story. One book took the republic from “losing, but rallying” to “in complete strategic collapse.”
Things that worked suddenly didn’t, then worked again, then didn’t, and units that had been competent suddenly suffered 100% losing streak. There really isn’t a logical story here
And I didn’t say you can’t try to apply real world logic and point out how things wouldn’t really work. I’m pointing out that a lot of things in the setting are allowed to just work without logic or any sense justifying it.
I think where we're differing, is that I'm looking at the same inconsistencies you are, and then applying a different set of questions to them.
"It worked before, why did it stop working?" would be a big one. My answer was different from yours, I think. I'm looking at the situation from the kick-off of MWDA, and what I'm seeing, is a lot of "the ends justify the means" solutions leading to the inevitable outcome of such solutions in the longer term.
IOW in short-terms, the solutions seemed to work well, but in 'reality' they were stopgaps that lacked the ability to prevent failure, because they eliminated the means of preventing long term failure.
The big one, to me, would be 'Fortress" itself-it bought a short period to reorganize and dig in, but it cut off necessary information and materials flow that might have offered MORE strategic and tactical options.
It's the eggs in a basket if you will-it only delayed the problem, it didn't solve it, and in delaying it, they went as long as they could, but that degraded their ability to respond to the outside world while it was up...in the end, resulting in MORE vulnerability, not less.
I'm sure we'll have different interpretations here, I'm offering mine as a suggestion.
The other thing I see, is built-in points of failure in how the Republic was organized from day one. The sort of situation where as long as evrything is working well, it kinda works-at least well enough to delay addressing key structural issues. (Kicking the can down the road of time a bit), but those structural issues made it Vulnerable to a shock (hence, multisided civil war as soon as a truly major national crisis occurs). The system wasn't resilient, it relied on a small, disconnected elite to solve general issue problems, and that elite were really only suitable for solving a specific type of problem-the kind you can solve by shooting someone, or punching them real hard until they died.
which is great, if the only threat to your republic is external, military, and can be stopped by killing the right guy. It's not so great when the biggest threat to your republic draws a Republic paycheck and thinks they're doing the right thing.
(and may actually have a point).
What you're seeing as purely illogical, is something I'm seeing as 'demonstrations of fundamental instability in the structure of the Republic itself".
Keep in mind, individual German units were still plastering Soviet forces and still killing GIs in some battles, then losing almost unexplainably in others as late as 1945. It wasn't the qualities of the soldiers that were at fault, it was a government that was...not adequate to the task...but that government had been inadequate in 1938, as well.
Likewise with the American Civil War, there were Confederate units who never lost a fight-but the Confederacy lost the war, and while Grant had the right strategy, that strategy was greatly assisted by the government of the Confederacy itself being who they were, and administrating the way that they did.
Including making the kind of wishful thinking assumptions that saw PT Beuregard regarded as a hero, instead of as the moron who attacked when the Confederacy really wasn't ready and wasn't prepared to fight a war of industry (had Fort Sumter not happened, the secession might well have gone through-there was significant anti-war sentiment in the Union, including within the government, prior to that incident. Instead of breaking resolve, it triggered it into being.)
My point is, you can have brilliance, and blinding stupidity happen inside any large organization that's had the comm channels effectively cut off, and they can even exist simultaneously within the same smaller organization.
Elite units suddenly having a losing streak? well, what happened to their intel section? did they lose a key source of information, did they lose a critical supplier? did the last set of 'wins' cost them something they couldn't replace? Did they get overextended? did their supply of replacements dry up, or were replacement personnel insufficiently trained? did their political backers reverse course (ask Xenophon about this one-he took 10,000 greeks into Persia and had to fight his way out when his backers there switched sides.)
warfare is more than shooting straight, it's more than the guns at the front. An armored division is going to be in real trouble if their logistical tail suddenly gets chopped off, or if the intelligence section starts getting reams of bad info.
especially a maneuver formation like a Division or Brigade, or even Regiment. If you stop getting good intel, you will start having lots of bad losses, even if your soldiers are teh very best that can be had.
For that matter, there's also the risky situation I alluded to with Paladins. A Paladin can override any local commander. What if the Paladin's got bad info? he puts the soldiers in a place that his intel says is critical, and out of the place where they are actually needed...what is the result?
Remember that, prior to Gray Monday, everybody relied on Comstar for their communications. what happens when you lose your long-range commo and you don't expect it? What happens when hand-delivered intel is a few hours to a few weeks too late? or doesn't arrive at all?
Or, say, requisitions for your supply units? It doesn't matter if Mech Industries is sitting on warehouses of spares, if your order doesn't get to them until a week after the battle you needed the stuff to prepare for.
or, say, it arrives at Garrison X, but you've been at Garrison Y for three weeks.
Or three months, because it took that long for the requisition to become a production order.
Or, how about when your elite force lands to suppress the Fractionalists, only the locals already did it, and they're REALLY needed 40 light years spinward on what the most recent dispatches insist is a world at peace?
Then there's the nightmare where your classified dispatch arrives...in time to be collected and analyzed by the enemy it's supposed to be warning the (late, because the enemy arrived first) garrison commander?
There are LOTS of reasons why high-performing units might start collapsing (at least, in terms of performance) and most of them can be environmentally explained, and that's without inserting the craven, the cowardly, or the corrupt into the mix.
Further, there's the damage when you WIN a battlefield victory that's really a strategic loss, only nobody can recognize it because it takes three weeks for a red-hot intel packet to arrive, a month to analyze it, and four weeks to result in orders that might have been useful two and a half months ago.
I see the Republic Armed forces, and I see a force that was built and optimized to use HPG and maybe Black box commo, but didn't build or drill in blackout procedures, why? because they had the biggest "A" station in the HPG network and every reason to believe Comstar would side with the government hosting their headquarters.
so, for a time, the RAF was operating with superior intel, because it wasn't out of date yet, but when it finally WAS out of date, they started losing hard.
Does that make sense to you? It's kind of like what some theorists in the modern context speculate might happen if the GPS network were to go down-and Nato wound up without GPS guidance for their smart bombs, or accurate up-to-the-meter positioning data on their own units.
what would that do to a military that is heavily dependent on a specific set of information sources? Might their performance degrade somewhat over time in the absence of that information source?
I think they might.
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One thing to consider is the great houses existed BEFORE HPGs did, sturcturally they could function, politically, without HPGs.
The republic lacked that historical advantage
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The Republic operates a lot like a Clan OZ. There are two different competing power structures:
- Local Planetary Nobility, Represented by the Senate
- Military, Represented by the Knights, Paladins, and the Exarch
In the House based Neo-Feudal model, the military (or at least its leadership) is from nobility making the military more or less a tool of that same nobility. While in the Republic, the military is its own class; taking taxes, prestige roles, and worst of all, holding the local nobility accountable for how they govern. It needs the Ghost Knights and other intelligence assets constantly reporting back to Terra about any disloyalty, so that the Knights could come and employ the "stick" to keep the local aristocracy inline. A bulk of the nobility probably felt they were better off before, back when they could maintain their own personal military power and wielded greater political power. Some nobles make have taken jobs in the Republic's bureaucracy, but they were just jobs, not the aristocratic rights and power that was their due.
In this framing, along with the population transfers, the Republic operates more like a Clan OZ than another InnerSphere state. The nobles and local planetary governments are kept in line via the stick rather than willing participants in Stone's political project. Since Stone was either unwilling, or unable to put his people in charge at the planetary level, the Republic was always going to fall apart as soon as its military became too weak, or in the case of the blackout, unable to to keep the planetary nobility in line.
This would make the Republic into a something like a Constitutional military dictatorship. Without the HPGs, it only existed where the RAF and the Knights had a presence. So when stone pulled everything back to Terra, the Republic just evaporated, like the Falcon OZ.
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The Republic wasn't the only victim of shifting development leadership behind the scenes, but it was certainly the biggest one.
It was also saddled with the completely unexplained "Wall" that the dev team had to deal with and whatever reason CGL needed to bring Stone back into the picture. The fate of the Republic was never going to unfold to the internal universe logic as those two bits of tech were unique and not fully bound by that logic.
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Yeah. As much as I might gripe about how Shattered universe went about changing the wall by explaining bits of it, the fact is someone had to do it and there probably weren’t many good answers. To many that didn’t leave the Republic with the “Player cannot be defeated while this card is in play” technology
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One thing to consider is the great houses existed BEFORE HPGs did, sturcturally they could function, politically, without HPGs.
The republic lacked that historical advantage
Most current nations existed before electrical power existed but would be extremely hard-pressed to continue to function if the world's electrical grids all spontaneously stopped working.
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It's also a bit of a stretch to suggest that institutional knowledge was maintained for seven hundred years when not in even infrequent use.
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it's more a matter of the fact that the great houses likely are designed to be considerably less centralized then then ROTS was.
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and whatever reason CGL needed to bring Stone back into the picture. ic.
It was in his contract. He had a really good agent.
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it's more a matter of the fact that the great houses likely are designed to be considerably less centralized then then ROTS was.
The Great Houses still had memory of embargoes and blackouts in living, institutional memory. This wouldn't be at all similar to the experience and mentality of the people who, for the most part, were until the defeat of WoB, the ones doing the blackouts.
Your planning had better be VERY different if you're relying on a foreign monopoly for your critical infrastructure, than if you ARE the monopoly...
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I think you're badly misidentifying the cause of friction in the immediate post-Blackout. How large do you think the WoB Protectorate was in the lead up to the Jihad and during the Jihad? I am very certain it's a lot smaller than the Republic was, on account of how there had to be a war fought to get Sun-Tzu let a bunch of systems go. If lack of experience dealing with HPG downtime was a major contributing factor then it would stand to reason that Prefecture X would be the one that crumbled first and hardest, and the Prefectures that were in living memory part of these states that are apparently so good at would have been more resilient. This is obviously not the case, so that cannot logically be the reason for the almost immediate disintegration of multiple prefectures in the span of just a couple years.
It's nationalist zeal and opportunism, for the most part, which is pretty obvious during the books. This is obviously exacerbated by communications blackout but "the Republic government was uniquely vulnerable to HPG blackouts because of lack of institutional experience with Sphere-wide blackouts" is trying way too hard to be clever. Sometimes the obvious answer is the answer and it's not deeper than that.
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Okay, so introduced as a whole, immediately has breakaway factions when Comms cut.
I think this might be a big point- the loss of the HPGs induced a lot of wannabes to reach for the brass ring (hello everyone's favorite billionaire, Jacob Bannson) and part of what makes what happened in the Republic "less" likely is we did not have it happen in other places . . . or at least not outright declared. A case could be made that the Sandovals trying to increase their push into the Draconis Rift could have been linked to the factionalism that cropped up after the HPGs dropped. Anton Marik's grab for Stewart fits though the League was still fractured at the time. Narratively Melissa's support for Jasek Kelswa-Steiner could have been played up to neuter the old Skye region's trying to grab back traditional worlds- including namesake the world.
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Another factor to consider is it took until 3147 for Black Boxes to become unreliable, that's 15 years where the black out was not a huge deal for anyone who had reasonable access to the technology.
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I think you're badly misidentifying the cause of friction in the immediate post-Blackout. How large do you think the WoB Protectorate was in the lead up to the Jihad and during the Jihad? I am very certain it's a lot smaller than the Republic was, on account of how there had to be a war fought to get Sun-Tzu let a bunch of systems go. If lack of experience dealing with HPG downtime was a major contributing factor then it would stand to reason that Prefecture X would be the one that crumbled first and hardest, and the Prefectures that were in living memory part of these states that are apparently so good at would have been more resilient. This is obviously not the case, so that cannot logically be the reason for the almost immediate disintegration of multiple prefectures in the span of just a couple years.
It's nationalist zeal and opportunism, for the most part, which is pretty obvious during the books. This is obviously exacerbated by communications blackout but "the Republic government was uniquely vulnerable to HPG blackouts because of lack of institutional experience with Sphere-wide blackouts" is trying way too hard to be clever. Sometimes the obvious answer is the answer and it's not deeper than that.
The underlying causes you mention, were always present, and the Republic's methods failed to reduce their influence.
despite knowing that influence was not only present, but persistent, and the Republic didn't have a good, ready counter to losing their primary communication method, or those opportunists wouldn't have seen an opportunity at all in the numbers they did.
none of those factions knew it was coming ahead of time, so they weren't poised to take advantage of it. That means days to weeks of confusion among the authorities before anyone felt comfortable enough to actually make a move.
This in turn suggests that, unlike nations that had endured Comstar-sponsored blackouts and had standing orders and resources to deal with another one, the Republic was flat-footed for at least long enough, that civil order could break down to the point that the guys grumbling in the pub on sunday are really ready and able to pick up arms and storm the garrison with some actual success (and expectation that they wouldn't be murdered by the local hookers}.
There's a pattern to this sort of thing, and without violating rule 4 (hopefully) it's a pretty steady pattern. the Easter Rising of 1916 came on the heels of news of severe casualties on the Western Front and in africa, but the news preceded the rising by MONTHS while the IRA put together more than a few angry young men.
Croatia, Bosnia, and the other ex-Yugoslav states spent weeks preparing as well-even manufacturing weapons, from the moment theat the regime in Belgrade started showing cracks and being unable to restrain local independence movements, and anyone actually taking up arms.
Gray monday was an unpredictable event, it caught EVERYONE with their pants down, logically, the Republic's regulars should've had plans for something similar, and trained on them on a semi-regular basis, because one of the first targets of an invader is going to be your commo grid...
yet...
in many places, including major worlds, they were unprepared for what amounts to scrub militias that formed 'yesterday'.
Well, there's gotta be a reason for that-and not "because the only competent guys were in the separatist factions" because that one doesn't wash.
Doctrine can explain the issue. Soldiers fight to a specific doctrine, military planners write up their drills according to specific assumptions, most of those assumptions are based on prior experience, and remember: Comstar was re-formed right on Terra from the same people who were running Comstar/Word of Blake for decades, does anyone seriously think that entity was NOT working for the Exarch first, and the other paying customers second?
That would be like expecting AT&T (Ma Bell era) NOT to cooperate with federal authorities during emergencies, only Comstar really NEEDS the Exarch's good will, they can't just relocate somewhere else to evade the tax man, because everywhere else is likely to be even MORE demanding, with consequences like 'We suspect you so we'll shoot you, because we don't want another word of blake jihad."
When you have superior intel long enough, you get used to having it, which in turn means your performance will degrade when you don't have it anymore.
if your doctrines are written on the idea of fast communication and reinforcements on-tap? that can be a bit hard to handle when you need it...and you don't have it.
Insurgents dont' have this problem because they presume shitty commo and bad intel into their planning, and make allowances.
Nations that have experienced Interdictions are going to have standing policies and assets to minimize the damage from an Interdiction, because Comstar is a foreign Monopoly on a critical set of assets. (communications and banking, mostly.)
Anyone with an education in the civil service of any of the other realms, is going to know what an Interdiction is, what it does, and that not being prepared is BAD.
because history, y'all.
further, the institutional memory of the chaos of the Jihad means some of those counters have been in play since the Jihad, taking on some or even most of that load of intel data and critical military communications-because as the Jihad showed everyone, an interdiction can happen unexpectedly and usually presages a series of really nasty attacks.
Smart people don't want to endure that after their grandfathers did, especially when they don't have control over that particular bit of infrastructure themselves.
BUT... the Republic's GOT that monopoly in their collective pocket. it's actually reasonable for RAF planners to discount the possibility of an Interdiction or total loss of HPG communications, just on the basis that Comstar is Republic located and would be the most endangered target in such an event, and without a Com Guards, Republic doctrine would probably include defending the HPG sites from aggressors, even at the expense of other strategic targets, because real-time HPG traffic is damned useful stuff to have.
so they end up caught in 'prepared for the last war' in a lot of places (but not all, because of the heterogenous nature of RAF commands).
This gives us the radical performance shifts- shit units doing heroe's work, Elite units suddenly unable to find their ass with both hands, a flashlight, and a map.
it's not because the individual soldiers suddenly turned stupid, it's because the communications infrastructure they built around suddenly went 'crackle-boom' and nobody took the potential seriously enough to do full maintenance and upkeep on option B...which, if you've listened to enough experienced staff officers, is a thing that happens even in first world, first class, top-of-the-line militaries today...and those militaries don't have to cope with hereditary nobles or government officials who can override years of training and planning on a whim without first having to present a solid case.
It's why we used to practice manually counting steps and old-fashioned map reading in basic training-we had GPS back in the day, too, and other advanced aids, but we had to learn how to operate without them because the enemy knows we've got 'em too.
I'm told they no longer 'do' that with the same intensity in today's army, because of the assumption that the GPS system will just 'work'.
My source may be lying his ass off.
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That's a whole lot of time and words to fail to address that this:
This wouldn't be at all similar to the experience and mentality of the people who, for the most part, were until the defeat of WoB, the ones doing the blackouts.
Can't be true and if anything is directly contradicted by Prefecture X's relative stability compared to all other prefectures. That very elaborate and well-thought-out rationalization fails at the most basic level: canon disagrees.
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That very elaborate and well-thought-out rationalization fails at the most basic level: canon disagrees.
God, I wish I had room in my signature for this quote. Because it should be repeated loudly and often.
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And the Republic of the Sphere is confirmed as to posses Black Box/Fax technology and to use it until 3147.
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That's a whole lot of time and words to fail to address that this:
Can't be true and if anything is directly contradicted by Prefecture X's relative stability compared to all other prefectures. That very elaborate and well-thought-out rationalization fails at the most basic level: canon disagrees.
How old do you think the average officer in th RAF is, Scotty?
The war ended (for the most part) in the early 3080s. Do you really think they only recruited from outside the Protectorate, bypassing the literal tens of billions of native Sol system residents of military age who grew up on the other side, or whose parents did?
The WoB protectorate comprised most of the most populated worlds in the Inner Sphere, heavily industrialized, heavily controlled, heavily influenced and heavily propagandized.
do you really honestly expect the RAF didn't have a predominance of Terrans or near-terran natives by 3132?
what did they do, keep in cryo until needed then back in the tanks?
The armies that fought the Jihad retired out, their successors grew up without it, were tehy all tank-born creche babies then?
even if you go with just a strict testing regimen for new recruits, and heavy indoctrination (which, to have an effective military you do)...their cultural influence and background is NOT going to be one where "HPG went down, get ready for invaders/attackers/trouble" it's going to be "well get it back up again, I'm missing Sportsnight!!"
The panic only sets in after it's been down for MANY hours, possibly days, and it's not a patch.
And the Republic of the Sphere is confirmed as to posses Black Box/Fax technology and to use it until 3147.
The gear matters less if the habits aren't there, or if it's 'secured equipment' or if you only have a few trained operators because it's not daily use.
hell, when I was in the service we still had PRC-77's right next to SincGars, we still trained on the old gear, but we didn't do it very often after basic. the new stuff was that much better.
and that was over thirty years ago, with Vietnam Vets still in the NCO corps.
Imagine a military where nobody had to use the less capable gear for decades... outside of annual (or semi-annual, or every four years) qualifications?
...---...
do you know what that is? if you do, I would wager you either googled it, or you're over thirty, maybe even over forty.
It used to be something MOST people knew instantly, and it's still something that works when other, more flexible forms of communication don't...
and as you get older and don't use it regularly, one tends to forget. Now, we'll take a military command,t hey have a Black Box, and they have an HPG connection.
guess which one is going to be used more often, because the other one is a wide-area broadcast instead of a somewhat easier to secure linear transmission with more bandwidth and lots more in terms of technical support.
SOME commands were prepared, because some commands have commanders who bother to prepare, but others? not so much.
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Every single point you bring up is refuted by [citation needed]. We have a separate board for that (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/board,50.0.html).
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Every single point you bring up is refuted by [citation needed]. We have a separate board for that (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/board,50.0.html).
Yes, you DO need to cite your sources-I'm putting forward an explanation as to why (in universe) a change of writing staff turned the Republic armed forces into a parody of Dad's Army (BBC show about incompetent british militiamen) and Blackadder goes forth (another one).
real world here, communication and intelligence are two things that if they go bad, go REAL bad, and you don't have to suddenly become brain damaged or mentally deficient for it to happen.
overreliance on a system is ALSO historical, it's happened in every war we've fought where peer forces were involved on opposing sides. Look up "ENigma"
Then, look up how a Black Box is supposed to actually work, versus how an HPG "just works" (prior to Gray Monday).
One of these, you have to rely on your cryptographers and one-use pads because anyone in the broadcast range can listen in with the same, or similar, equipment, while the other actually requires effort and inside sources to intercept (and has more range, and is more reliable even 'back in the day').
The BB is much more compact, and portable, if it were that much better (better enough to serve as the day-to-day option) then nobody would be using HPGs anymore-at least, military-wise, because even the Dracs and cappies had it by 3062.
Human nature shows that people will, if allowed, seek the easy route far more often than the difficult one, this goes for everything from accomplishing a task, to management. SOME people buck those trends, but the majority in any organization larger than a few dozen hardcores, is going to be the direction of least effort.
hence, the Republic can have all the Black boxes in the universe, but when HPG's are so much better in every way, only a few hard-core diehards and paranoids are actually going to do more than their annual qualifications and maybe some specified exercises for right around fifty years prior to 3132....because they're human beings.
or at least, they're written as human beings, and not paragon-gods.
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That's an interesting theory. Now support it with canonical sources.
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I think where we're differing, is that I'm looking at the same inconsistencies you are, and then applying a different set of questions to them.
"It worked before, why did it stop working?" would be a big one. My answer was different from yours, I think. I'm looking at the situation from the kick-off of MWDA, and what I'm seeing, is a lot of "the ends justify the means" solutions leading to the inevitable outcome of such solutions in the longer term.
The fundamental difference is more that I’m not straying much outside of what we have for canon. You’re making huge assumptions that can’t be backed up by any canonical sources in order to reach fundamentally illogical conclusions because the story of the republic’s collapse is fundamentally illogical.
Yes, a search for how one could explain the collapse isn’t a bad idea, but the issue is you continue to write on here as if your fan theories are fact. It’s why Scotty linked the fan fiction forum.
Every time Ive had you cite sources, I find out the basic assumptions underlying your theories don’t have merit. Example: your last reply to Scotty spoke at length about failures of communication, but the RotS had what looks like half of the known working HPGs after gray Monday. Meaning their command and control and strategic flexibility should have been superior to everyone else that just recently blinded. Even when down to prefecture X, RotS had multiple working HPGs and should have had strategic advantages over the incoming attackers. Whoever wrote the books ignored that.
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The fundamental difference is more that I’m not straying much outside of what we have for canon. You’re making huge assumptions that can’t be backed up by any canonical sources in order to reach fundamentally illogical conclusions because the story of the republic’s collapse is fundamentally illogical.
Yes, a search for how one could explain the collapse isn’t a bad idea, but the issue is you continue to write on here as if your fan theories are fact. It’s why Scotty linked the fan fiction forum.
Every time Ive had you cite sources, I find out the basic assumptions underlying your theories don’t have merit. Example: your last reply to Scotty spoke at length about failures of communication, but the RotS had what looks like half of the known working HPGs after gray Monday. Meaning their command and control and strategic flexibility should have been superior to everyone else that just recently blinded. Even when down to prefecture X, RotS had multiple working HPGs and should have had strategic advantages over the incoming attackers. Whoever wrote the books ignored that.
There are also no firm canon sources proving I'm wrong, it's called "Speculation", Church.
Because you're absolutely right-relying only on Canon, the whole of the last 20 years of storyline is completely illogical, to the point it makes no sense to itself.
Effect precedes cause, or has no cause, major characters suddenly become stupid, or incapable of rational thought, 'geniuses' come up with idiotic battle plans built to lose, and so on.
and there's no canonical information to make any of it make any sense beyond "BLP hated the Republic".
Cause leads to Effect. man gets a bloody nose, someone threw a punch, or there's a medical reason, or there's SOMETHING to precede that effect that logically ends up with george getting a bloody nose.
We're in agreement on the basic problem there. I'm just offering a speculation that allows for any kind of logical explanation at all that doesn't require resorting to "God decided it was so" (author fiat).
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Maybe you should just accept that there is no logical in-universe explanation and move on. Because of all this just amounts to "just make up the answer you want regardless of there being no canonical evidence to support it".
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Maybe you should just accept that there is no logical in-universe explanation and move on. Because of all this just amounts to "just make up the answer you want regardless of there being no canonical evidence to support it".
All that's left with that one, is complaining because it doesn't make sense, followed by bagging on anyone who actually liked the outcome...because it was inconsistent and didn't make sense.
at least this way, there's a discussion, rather than just a handful of people complaining about the outcome not making sense and a group that wants to see what goodies their actual favorite faction's going to get out of the corpse.
but hey, whatever, I'm done, have fun.
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All that's left with that one, is complaining because it doesn't make sense, followed by bagging on anyone who actually liked the outcome...because it was inconsistent and didn't make sense.
Alternatively, you could just not complain and/or bag on people who enjoyed it. Just because someone enjoyed something that you didn't doesn't mean that you're required to tell them that their personal tastes are wrong.
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All that's left with that one, is complaining because it doesn't make sense, followed by bagging on anyone who actually liked the outcome...because it was inconsistent and didn't make sense.
at least this way, there's a discussion, rather than just a handful of people complaining about the outcome not making sense and a group that wants to see what goodies their actual favorite faction's going to get out of the corpse.
but hey, whatever, I'm done, have fun.
People shouldn’t bag on anyone for liking the outcome. You do realize it possible for someone to say “damn, the fall of the Republic was contrived nonsense,” and then immediately say “I hope we can start the new era with better, more believable writing given the starting point we have.”
I don’t want CGL to go and undo HotW, I don’t want wolf fans to feel bad about their faction on top, and I want the story to go forward given the new conditions of a (mostly or totally) dead Republic but with better writing and no more plot armor.
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In some points the sudden collapse or perhaps deterioation of the Republic seems very illogical. How come that people who lived together for almost 50 years suddenly decide "Ok let's tear at each other again". This was more plausible for the Kerensky Cluster and the League in exile as they grouped themselves together and formed their own communities developing a "us vs them" mentality. What made sense was the short civil war as it was shown that the senators were not happy being sidelined by "upstart" commoners (a good portion of Paladins and Knights were normal people not blue bloods) This could have been imho a better plot to rip the Republic asunder if we combine it with meddling from other nations. It is what it is at this point. I just hope that some of my favorite characters like Levin or Tucker are not tossed aside because "the plot demands it"
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**MOD NOTICE**
Guys, come on. Do not get into fights with one another over the realism inherent in an imaginary nation-state protected by giant robots. Not everything is going to have an airtight explanation and different people are going to enjoy (or not enjoy) different resolutions.
If you're just here to argue, please go someplace else.
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The initial collapse of the Republic is one of the more believable things to have happened in the setting. In the very first book (Ghost War) Knight Lakewood stated that republic needed the HPGs to make the Republics carrot and stick approach to governance work. It's the books way of stating the Republic isn't a nation like the other Great Houses, despite 80 year of effort to trying to build it into one. This wasn't 80 years of peaceful coexistence, but waiting for the right opportunity to break free, or make a personal bid for power. Era Digest (or Report) drops hints of other splinter factions that existed besides the main 6. Even Northwind, a pro-Republic world through and through, had an illegal Grey Watch militia group. The RAF doesn't have to be incompetent, just busy, and struggling to coordinate, and cautious about splitting their force due to lack of good intelligence about the blackout.
The Republicans heroically try to keep things together and stem the tide, but losing by inches until the Wall goes up, because they just don't have the tool kit they need to bring folks back into the fold quickly enough. I think that story works well. It's something new in the setting, that doesn't break the setting and it's what makes the Republic an interesting faction.
At this point either:
- the Republic recovers (like it seams to in the epilogue of Surrender Your Dreams)
- the Republic falls and merges with Clan Wolf (2013 Ben Rome Clan of il)
- the Republic dies (HotW)
Once TPTB decided not to make Tukayyid 2: Electric Boogaloo on Terra, but rather have Clan Jade Falcon and Wolf learn from there history, to make any sacrifice in lives and other resources to obtain a complete victory. To in effect enter something as close to a total war footing as the setting allows. That sort of conflict does not end short of a complete surrender of one side or the other, so once it was made, it was only ever going to end in the death of the Republic as TPTB were never going to pull a Ice Hellion with Clan Wolf, having them invade, fail, and die.
To get from the FM3145 which was (per the leaked Ben Rome draft), a setup for Tukayyid 2: Electric Boogaloo on Terra to the version of ilClan that we got things had to change. Making those changes was Shattered Fortresses job, and it did so via at least three changes.
- Giving the wall a shelf life (Had to be done)
- Stone's decision to concentrate his troops on Terra
- Stone's decision to Operation ERUPTIO in the wrong direction.
The final fall was all Stone. He made bad bets that cost the Republic its existence. He gambled that:
- That the Suns would help him after he helped them.
- That the Clans would not work together
- That the Clans would strike only at strategic points
Which as a story, works less well. But for why the post-Wall Republic went down, its doesn't mince words. Stone made mistake after mistake, picking Rock, rather than Scissors, and wasted whatever strength the Republic had left against Alaric's Paper.
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Stone should have launched Eruptio with the walls still up to provoke counter assaults. We know what happens when forces hit the wall. That would have been the most efficent use of the wall because we all know how eager the Republic's oppoinentswere to jump the border
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Stone should have launched Eruptio with the walls still up to provoke counter assaults. We know what happens when forces hit the wall. That would have been the most efficent use of the wall because we all know how eager the Republic's oppoinentswere to jump the border
The wall is the most bonkers broken defensive asset ever brought to bear in the setting. How many traps could have been laid, how many clusters or regiments lost with some deception and timing? We saw Capellans lose entire regiments trying.
Slip to the wolves that they found a way through same as HotW except lie about the minimum distance. Let the wolves test the system while it’s off. Then just turn it back on again and watch 80 clusters of wolves die in five minutes. Even if it can’t hit that many ships in rapid succession, how many warships or troop filled jumpships dead in moments? Then, do it again weeks later when falcons arrive.
This kind of stuff is why I find the fall of the Republic unbelievable.
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The final fall was all Stone. He made bad bets that cost the Republic its existence. He gambled that:
- That the Suns would help him after he helped them.
- That the Clans would not work together
- That the Clans would strike only at strategic points
Which as a story, works less well. But for why the post-Wall Republic went down, its doesn't mince words. Stone made mistake after mistake, picking Rock, rather than Scissors, and wasted whatever strength the Republic had left against Alaric's Paper.
The only bad bet there was AFFS coming to their aid. His plan to bring one clan at a time and wipe them was sound. Even in HotW, no wolf except Alaric thought it was a good idea or even thought of it at all. His plan to defend strategic assets with a massive series of redoubts was sound. Think of how badly falcons bled on initial landings when the redoubts gave them no end of trouble.
The plans weren’t bad bets. He just got beaten by Alaric being one step ahead.
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I feel like this thread needs to avoid the contents of ilClan and HOTW as much as possible, because even though I want to agree with you the sheer number of contrivances* that led to Alaric being one step ahead makes it really hard not to just instinctively disagree, and then we're back to not actually talking about the Republic at all.
*like how Australia shrunk to a quarter of its normal size just in time for the Wolf forces to disembark their dropships.
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I feel like this thread needs to avoid the contents of ilClan and HOTW as much as possible, because even though I want to agree with you the sheer number of contrivances* that led to Alaric being one step ahead makes it really hard not to just instinctively disagree, and then we're back to not actually talking about the Republic at all.
*like how Australia shrunk to a quarter of its normal size just in time for the Wolf forces to disembark their dropships.
Alright. Fair enuff.
Stupid contrived right angle question time: if you’re going to going out of your way to preserve any Republic designs, what is it.
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Now that's a good topic. I think the best native Republic design just in terms of "wow that's a good mech" is the Doloire and second place isn't particularly close, but I have a huge soft spot for the Malice.
Actually, having just looked up the contents of TRO 3145 ROTS, it's the Centaur. Love those little guys.
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Now that's a good topic. I think the best native Republic design just in terms of "wow that's a good mech" is the Doloire and second place isn't particularly close, but I have a huge soft spot for the Malice.
Actually, having just looked up the contents of TRO 3145 ROTS, it's the Centaur. Love those little guys.
Doloire is one of those things that I recognize and acknowledge is damn good, but the lament and uraeus catch my attention more.
For non-mech assets, the aegis APDS BA is something unique that would benefit the setting to keep around.
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For the FedSuns, I think the Scapha and Taranis would be good designs to preserve or ideally put into production
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Stupid contrived right angle question time: if you’re going to going out of your way to preserve any Republic designs, what is it.
The Simian and Centaur BAs, the Jackalope, the Simurgh fighter, the Duat dropper, and all of the tripods. But I'd rather not see any of them go extinct.
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I really hope the Jackalope finds a home... I also have a soft spot for the Lament.
because even though I want to agree with you the sheer number of contrivances* that led to Alaric being one step ahead makes it really hard not to just instinctively disagree, and then we're back to not actually talking about the Republic at all.
My take has always been that Stone lost before the first Clan crossed the wall (SH / CoK) victory is almost impossible once the strategic initiative has been ceded to the opponent. Even thing that happened later was just BLP poorly filling in the details.
I feel like this thread needs to avoid the contents of ilClan and HOTW as much as possible.
I think it's Alaric that is poison topic not HotW.... But, I will play along, though give it three pages tops.
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In some points the sudden collapse or perhaps deterioation of the Republic seems very illogical. How come that people who lived together for almost 50 years suddenly decide "Ok let's tear at each other again". This was more plausible for the Kerensky Cluster and the League in exile as they grouped themselves together and formed their own communities developing a "us vs them" mentality. What made sense was the short civil war as it was shown that the senators were not happy being sidelined by "upstart" commoners (a good portion of Paladins and Knights were normal people not blue bloods) This could have been imho a better plot to rip the Republic asunder if we combine it with meddling from other nations. It is what it is at this point. I just hope that some of my favorite characters like Levin or Tucker are not tossed aside because "the plot demands it"
The Republic was a cult of personality in many ways. The vast majority of the citizenry loved Stone and did whatever he said, so as soon as he disappeared, they had a strange government on Terra that most of them weren't citizens of, and they started reflecting on their heritages elsewhere. It had been a few generations since the Jihad and its very easy for people to forget how bad things can get if they've had peace for nearly 80 years.
Given that the Republic fought the Capellans in the 3110 though... that makes a bit less sense that the Republic would keep demilitarizing if they knew one of their neighbors was still gunning for them.
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Oh! but the Republic had the Federated Suns, the Lyran Commonwealth, and the Rasalhague Dominion in its camp, to varying degrees. Funny that all three of these had varying degrees of problems when the Republic needed them most.
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The Biggest Issue the RoTS had was its reliance on a fossil like Devlin Stone and outdated thinking. When the Wall went up there was most likely a far different plan for the future to deal with the surrounding states and threats and Jonah Levin had a far better understanding of the situation and people involved because he had met them and experienced the various threats in real time.
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Oh! but the Republic had the Federated Suns, the Lyran Commonwealth, and the Rasalhague Dominion in its camp, to varying degrees. Funny that all three of these had varying degrees of problems when the Republic needed them most.
The Rasalhague Dominion has proven to be the sick man of Dark Age. Even modest external pressure seems to expose turbulence within it. Their leadership seems desperate and incompetent which makes them dangerous.
I would not say the Commonwealth supported the Republic in the remotest way, despite its pretenses. The only camp they shared was that they both wanted two clans annihilated or absorbed, but that would align them with all of the Successor States. They returned to their warlike tendencies against the Free Worlds League as soon as they could. Clans Wolf and jade Falcon are not viewed favorably anywhere outside of perhaps other Clans. In hindsight, once again the Lyrans broke the Inner Sphere.
The Federated Suns has survived a comedy of errors for now... whilst fighting enemies who have outgunned them. Yeah, they are fairly sidelined until they catch up.
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The Biggest Issue the RoTS had was its reliance on a fossil like Devlin Stone and outdated thinking. When the Wall went up there was most likely a far different plan for the future to deal with the surrounding states and threats and Jonah Levin had a far better understanding of the situation and people involved because he had met them and experienced the various threats in real time.
My understanding was that Levin did not stand a chance to begin with. Furthermore, he knew it. Stone managed to create a competent force in time to stand a chance. At this point in time, the Republic simply did not have the political capital or credibility to play the actors. Furthermore, had you told anyone with knowledge of the 31st century that the Bears were nearly as unreliable or unstable as they have been, you would be laughed off.
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My understanding was that Levin did not stand a chance to begin with. Furthermore, he knew it. Stone managed to create a competent force in time to stand a chance. At this point in time, the Republic simply did not have the political capital or credibility to play the actors. Furthermore, had you told anyone with knowledge of the 31st century that the Bears were nearly as unreliable or unstable as they have been, you would be laughed off.
Levin had a chance. After DAMNATIO he had removed the last internal threat within Prefecture X. But the problem was that the people within Prefecture X became restless as they were in essence trapped. And here we come to the fact others have mnetioned: Stone was the one personality that everyone looked up to. Neither Redburn nor Levin had the charisma to keep the state together. If Levin had the same personality to bind the Republic together it might have worked. The problem was that they had to start at basically 0 again in terms of forces. What was actually left? Some regiments from Stone's brigade and...remants from each of the three brigades plus the Standing guards. None of the original regiments from each brigade was left if you remember the force compsition of FM3145. And with that small foreces you can't even begin to counter attack. The raiding wasn't that bad of an idea but it should have been coupled with using the wall to it's fullest and also trying to connect with old allies or even making new ones. If the Republic really had manpower shortages why not supply the Lyrans or Suns with new gear? Production is safe (thank you Fortress) and your allies get a shot in the arm.
And I have to nitpick: therew ar ementions that the Bears were dealing with their own issues: the Second Dominoon-Combine war showed that the Rasalhagians weren't as complacent as thought. And then there is the whole Freeminder movement and them first dumping them on Vega only to reabsorb them years later without addressing the issues in the first place. The Bears were in some ways a powderkeg ready to explode. Alaric simply threw a splinter in it most likely causing even more problems down the line should their new war with the Combine go south.
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Stupid contrived right angle question time: if you’re going to going out of your way to preserve any Republic designs, what is it.
Mechs- I agree the Doloire is the obvious choice, so leave that aside for me it is the Lament. I think it looks cool even, have one of the minis and it occasionally finds it's way into FWL forces as a 'salvage' for fun. I like the design with RHS in the models even if TPTB designing it kind of gimped it up to keep it from going Hellstar- IS ERPPCs, Clan HLLs, always just shy of pushing the design to being tops.
Vehicles- Scapha is the obvious choice even if it gets very little time in books and is a sleeper to most folks. It is also funny b/c before the RecGuides I think it was the Omni with the most configs and it was not a Mech or even a Clan creation. I think the workhorse armor for the RAF would be the Kinnol, even if the PPC version wastes 4t. The mix of weapons, speed, and armor does what I would want in armor support. The LBX and MML to swap between SRM & LRMs lets it support through out the ranges and with a speed of 5/8 it can keep up with the mech cavalry formations through most terrain, the only comparable IS design IMO is the FedSuns Manteuffel but the Kinnol was more produced & widely spread than the FS design. Heck, even the Clans IIRC do not create a heavy tank with that capability at that speed- most comparable are mediums like the Enyo and Joust.
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Supplying the Lyrans would have been poorly conceived. I am not simply being a partisan, the Lyran fanbase would by in large agree that they were a hostile power from the beginning of Dark Age (Well, the Stormhammers were released later, but...). The Republic forces on Terra should have been enough to beat both clans, but aside from that, the only other power in a position to support the Republic chose not to.
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But the problem was that the people within Prefecture X became restless as they were in essence trapped.
This was such a strange plot point to me. I realize interstellar travel within and between realms is a thing and all, but was the Republic really that populated with travelers that this was a serious consideration? It just seems really contrived.
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This was such a strange plot point to me. I realize interstellar travel within and between realms is a thing and all, but was the Republic really that populated with travelers that this was a serious consideration? It just seems really contrived.
The best explanation I can come up with is this is one of the most heavily populated area of human occupied space and thus the need to be able to move about to different systems is thus much more pronounced.
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Or you could look as Terra as a massive transport/trade hub. The best of all of humanity flowed to your realm. Now you get industries desperately reinventing the wheel to fulfill niches that have been opened up...or worse yet, going without. Remember how excited the NAIS staff was to get a care package from the Lyrcom side of things during the Interdiction in the Fourth Succession War in Warrior: Coupe?
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This was such a strange plot point to me. I realize interstellar travel within and between realms is a thing and all, but was the Republic really that populated with travelers that this was a serious consideration? It just seems really contrived.
Maybe a side effect of the relocations? If your family gets "torn" by relocations you might want to visit them often. Though how expensive are those jumpship trips? I guess that was the limit of "ad securitas per unitas" After all the wall was the ultimate security as no one could invade (unless someone gave away the key)
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Maybe a side effect of the relocations? If your family gets "torn" by relocations you might want to visit them often. Though how expensive are those jumpship trips? I guess that was the limit of "ad securitas per unitas" After all the wall was the ultimate security as no one could invade (unless someone gave away the key)
Would they even be allowed to visit? Especially with JS shortages...
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This was such a strange plot point to me. I realize interstellar travel within and between realms is a thing and all, but was the Republic really that populated with travelers that this was a serious consideration? It just seems really contrived.
FASAnomics at work. Dropship / Jumpship transport capacity is too limited to move anything but the most valuable commodities while at the same time be cheap enough for commercial transport.
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Would they even be allowed to visit? Especially with JS shortages...
After the securing of the Republic? Probably. But during the Dark Age? Most likely not. I can somehow undertsnad the arguemtn: the fortress forces you to live inside a "confined" space. What is worse you don't get any news from the outside since even the pony express can't come in and I doubt the raiding parties bring any information / news with them. Next is your living comforts are impeded (something touched on in Ghost War) by not getting everything you were used to. Though in all honesty I would assume that the worlds in Prefecture X should be mostly self sufficient and only some worlds need regular shipments which should be manageable in such a "smal" state. And perhaps the most glaring part: there seems to be no major undertaking to regain the lost worlds (and lack of HPG's mean that any "propaganda" comes rather slow)
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This was such a strange plot point to me. I realize interstellar travel within and between realms is a thing and all, but was the Republic really that populated with travelers that this was a serious consideration? It just seems really contrived.
It may also be a matter of loss of certain widely avaliable and liked "luxery goods" from outside prefecture X. To use a modern world example, coffee largely isn't grown in the continenantal USA. it's certainly not a strategic resource but if the continantal USA suddenly tried to do a "fortress republic" you can bet people'd notice REAAALLY quick that a affordable cup of Joe was becoming hard to get.
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I think we all saw how fast supply shortages can hit from even a short supply chain disruption in recent years.
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right and even if we accept that pref X is largely self sufficant and that there's not going to be mass toilet paper shortages, it's HIGHLY likely that fortress republic saw the worlds behind the wall usffer from a loss of imported luxeries, even if we assume no STAPLE luxeries like say... coffee where lost (continuing my earlier comment about comparing to the modern continental USA) you can bet some luxeries that those who had a bit more money could afford would be cut off, which yeah would mean suddenly you have people with money and likely influence feeling the pain
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the biggest impactor would probably be the nationalization of jumpships by the republic in the fortress as part of their military build up.
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Any and all manufacturing would see shortfalls in raw materials but the biggest impact would be the nationalization of industry for the war effort. That car factory gets turned into a tank manufacturing plant. The small scale production line of canned goods gets turned into munitions. The loss of civvie goods would do a lot to turn the population against there goverments.
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Any and all manufacturing would see shortfalls in raw materials but the biggest impact would be the nationalization of industry for the war effort. That car factory gets turned into a tank manufacturing plant. The small scale production line of canned goods gets turned into munitions. The loss of civvie goods would do a lot to turn the population against there goverments.
right you'd see a loss of civvie goods across the board, not just due to nationalization, but as I said sudden "forgien staples" no longer being avaliable. things like suddenly not being able to see your yearly immortal warrior flick, your favorite type of Quiller jelly now being impossiable to get. etc these little things would add up and result in a lot of frustration.
TBH It's something I could see the wolves through the Sea Foxes using to secure their CONTROL of Terra "Sure the clans took over but the biggest change I saw was that I can now buy "New Avalon's best brand quillar Jelly again"
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right you'd see a loss of civvie goods across the board, not just due to nationalization, but as I said sudden "forgien staples" no longer being avaliable. things like suddenly not being able to see your yearly immortal warrior flick, your favorite type of Quiller jelly now being impossiable to get. etc these little things would add up and result in a lot of frustration.
TBH It's something I could see the wolves through the Sea Foxes using to secure their CONTROL of Terra "Sure the clans took over but the biggest change I saw was that I can now buy "New Avalon's best brand quillar Jelly again"
Considering that according to Dominions Divided the Wolves ordered an even increased amount of war material production (so more then what the Republic produced) I don't see that for the forseerable future. Of course Terra's factories aren't sweatshops but most are fully automatic factories that allegedly need little oversight but this sounds typical Clan: Military gets priority over everything else. Of course the resource crunch is another thing and the Foxes will probbaly have the Wolves pay an arm and a leg for their services. And if the Capellans have really cut through the Empire's stretch to Terra transporting has become a risk as well. Either fly through "hostile teritory" or use uninhabitated systems.
Which makes me wonder how Terrans will cope with this state of affairs. While the Republic had a somewhat War economy going (probably more true for Stone's last years then for Levin's) they seem to have at least still time for themselves. Now with the Wolves as their new overlords and their even bigger demand I wonder how that will play out. After all Machines break under stress (the early years of the Clans on Strana Mechty have shown this and their leaders didn't care until they realized it bit them) and then said machines need replacements leading to delays.
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It would certainly be funny if the Ilkhan was overthrown by a bunch of BT sheeple. But of course, sheeple.
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Sheeple in large numbers can be a danger. Fortunately the Wolves have several Galaxys of troops available and a civvie population of there own they can replace Terras population with.
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Sheeple in large numbers can be a danger. Fortunately the Wolves have several Galaxys of troops available and a civvie population of there own they can replace Terras population with.
How many Galaxies can be staffed with 29 clusters? Not many plus the Wolves have no reinforcements coming. Zippo. And Terra has 12 billion inhabitants (i think at this point it's 12 billion) We come again to the somewhat unrealisitc proportion of how big of a military do you need to garrison popoulus worlds. Just wait until those people ask for food. Or that someone repairs all the damage they caused instead of rebuilding Unity City
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How many Galaxies can be staffed with 29 clusters? Not many plus the Wolves have no reinforcements coming. Zippo. And Terra has 12 billion inhabitants (i think at this point it's 12 billion) We come again to the somewhat unrealisitc proportion of how big of a military do you need to garrison popoulus worlds. Just wait until those people ask for food. Or that someone repairs all the damage they caused instead of rebuilding Unity City
If amount of military needed to garrison populous worlds hasn't been a problem in universe for the past 40 IRL years I don't see why it should suddenly become one now
As for administrating Terra and dealing with aftermath of invasion that will be on local Terran administration for the foreseeable future because Wolves will be busy with stuff off world
Majority of interactions between Terrans and Wolf warriors will be going through Wolf civilians, people often demand to talk to the manager but most of the times manager is not available for the talk
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Wolves if there smart will not create a Caste System right away. Just bringing in Clan Civvies to act as intermediarys will cause issues. But right now control over the population can be brought about via restricting food and travel as well as putting unrest down violently. The question is will Terra's population succumb quickly or will it turn into a guerilla war?
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Sheeple in large numbers can be a danger. Fortunately the Wolves have several Galaxys of troops available and a civvie population of there own they can replace Terras population with.
Where are wolves getting those clan civilians?
Correct me if I’m wrong. My understanding was:
- Clan Wolf only moved essential lower castes when establishing the Wolf Empire. Ten years is not enough time to create a much larger civilian population.
- Alaric brought substantial military force, but not civilians with him to Terra.
- There has been no contact between Alaric and the Empire through June 3152
The few Wolf clan civilians in range are out of his reach. He’s holding Terra with some small percent of his original strength and the people needed to support the war effort.
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Wolves if there smart will not create a Caste System right away. Just bringing in Clan Civvies to act as intermediarys will cause issues. But right now control over the population can be brought about via restricting food and travel as well as putting unrest down violently. The question is will Terra's population succumb quickly or will it turn into a guerilla war?
If Alaric brought any Civil admins they will be very busy. The question is if any former Republic admins will work with the Wolves. Most likely most will just to do their best for the pewople they served for so long. Of course if alaric pulls a Kerensky and basically fires every Republic offical then we get a repeat of Terra's liberation by Kerensky. And restricting food? Terra is self sufficient. You think they export anything? Very doubtful unless the Foxes ask for it. The biggest problem right now: no contact with his Empire which is the resource base for material and men. And both are currently under heavy assault by the League. Meanwhile the Dragoons are rubbing salt into the wound by absorbing every Wolf cadet and solahma they can turning them basically against Alaric
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One thing not mentioned . . .
There are probably 'ethnic' Clanners on Terra as part of the Republic. We know they were represented among the Senators, Knights, and RAF in general. IIRC some of the worlds inside the Fortress had Clan Enclaves that would have been functioning when the wall went up . . . and their training programs, like the mercs IMO, would have been absorbed or annihilated.
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One thing not mentioned . . .
There are probably 'ethnic' Clanners on Terra as part of the Republic. We know they were represented among the Senators, Knights, and RAF in general. IIRC some of the worlds inside the Fortress had Clan Enclaves that would have been functioning when the wall went up . . . and their training programs, like the mercs IMO, would have been absorbed or annihilated.
You’re right, but I’m not sure in any number that matter. The enclaves wouldn’t have been on Terra. Stone had been rather… specific about clan forces not setting foot on the planet as a military force whether allies or not. The only exception I remember where there were any in real numbers might be VSD’s funeral.
So we’re left with natural migration and Stone’s resettlement program. Which… neither gives us any good numbers to estimate. We also can’t guarantee that any clan descended citizens of the Republic would choose to support the ilClan, have relevant skills to do so, and would even be treated as clan by Alaric. He can get salty when clanners go native.
In general, we can expect some support for Alaric from Terran citizens. It’s just a matter of how much. Given the cultural whiplash Alaric seems to want (which can easily change the moment iKEO releases), I expect it to be very little. But I’ve got nothing to pin a hard number on, so it’s really just a gut feeling
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You’re right, but I’m not sure in any number that matter. The enclaves wouldn’t have been on Terra. Stone had been rather… specific about clan forces not setting foot on the planet as a military force whether allies or not. The only exception I remember where there were any in real numbers might be VSD’s funeral.
That's correct; in fact, I'm fairly certain that the Clanners had to actually take an oath NOT to try to stake any claim on Terra for the occasion.
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If Alaric brought any Civil admins they will be very busy. The question is if any former Republic admins will work with the Wolves. Most likely most will just to do their best for the pewople they served for so long. Of course if alaric pulls a Kerensky and basically fires every Republic offical then we get a repeat of Terra's liberation by Kerensky. And restricting food? Terra is self sufficient. You think they export anything? Very doubtful unless the Foxes ask for it. The biggest problem right now: no contact with his Empire which is the resource base for material and men. And both are currently under heavy assault by the League. Meanwhile the Dragoons are rubbing salt into the wound by absorbing every Wolf cadet and solahma they can turning them basically against Alaric
I love how you focused on 'Restricting Food'. Do you think food magically appears on store shelves? Terra can be as self sufficient as it wants. All Clan Wolf has to do is stop the trucks that take food from the fields to the warehouses and to the stores. If your in power things like that becomes another tool. The Wolves have a hundred ways to control the population without ever putting even one Elemental in the field.
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How are they going to do that without using troops?
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I love how you focused on 'Restricting Food'. Do you think food magically appears on store shelves? Terra can be as self sufficient as it wants. All Clan Wolf has to do is stop the trucks that take food from the fields to the warehouses and to the stores. If your in power things like that becomes another tool. The Wolves have a hundred ways to control the population without ever putting even one Elemental in the field.
And all Terran farmers have to do then to simply say "eff you plow the field yourself" I want to see Alaric order his warriors to use their Savage Wolves to tend to the fields. You are right food doesn't show up magically on the shelves but what if the producers of the "raw material" go on strike? Can't simply kill them all now can you? Or if they decide to "salt the earth" just to add misery to injury
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If Alaric brought any Civil admins they will be very busy. The question is if any former Republic admins will work with the Wolves. Most likely most will just to do their best for the pewople they served for so long. Of course if alaric pulls a Kerensky and basically fires every Republic offical then we get a repeat of Terra's liberation by Kerensky. And restricting food? Terra is self sufficient. You think they export anything? Very doubtful unless the Foxes ask for it. The biggest problem right now: no contact with his Empire which is the resource base for material and men. And both are currently under heavy assault by the League. Meanwhile the Dragoons are rubbing salt into the wound by absorbing every Wolf cadet and solahma they can turning them basically against Alaric
Simply by showing up for work the local administrators are already doing Alaric's bidding
Sure, they could go on strike or something but the locals will be holding them responsible for the ensuing mess because the Wolves are God knows where and goldbricking administrators are right here
There will be years until any kind of local administration comes on the roster for Wolves, they have much more important stuff to deal with now, Terra is on autopilot and the shoddier the locals do their jobs now the better it will make the Wolves look later
As for Dragoons again thinking they are legitimate nation, it may feel good now but odds are they will bitterly regret it down the road (and it wouldn't be the first time)
And all Terran farmers have to do then to simply say "eff you plow the field yourself" I want to see Alaric order his warriors to use their Savage Wolves to tend to the fields. You are right food doesn't show up magically on the shelves but what if the producers of the "raw material" go on strike? Can't simply kill them all now can you? Or if they decide to "salt the earth" just to add misery to injury
Compared to Terra's food production Wolves' nutritional requirements are barely a rounding error
They can just say "We will be taking all these tasty morsels you already have prepared, thanks and enjoy dealing with your regular customers who pre-ordered and paid for this stuff"
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The Wolves will take what they want and need abd they will not care about things like payment or transportation issues. The Clan way is the civvies do as there told and to like it. Which on Terra might blow up in there faces. It really will count on how heavy a hand the Clan will use on the now conquered nation and how much resistance is out there.
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Not really been that way in the IS since the Invasion.
Falcons tried that on their new worlds, see Archer Pryde.
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So do we have a list of missing Republic units that might have survived the Clan Invasion or withdrew offworld?
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So do we have a list of missing Republic units that might have survived the Clan Invasion or withdrew offworld?
Short version
XVI Hastati Sentinels
XI Principes Guards
XII Principes Guards
XIII Principes Guards
XIV Principes Guards
XV Principes Guards
X Triarii Protectors
XI Triarii Protectors
XII Triarii Protectors
XIII Triarii Protectors
2nd Fides
3rd Fides
6th Fides
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Given that size, they could conquer a major periphery state.
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Given that size, they could conquer a major periphery state.
I’m keenly aware. It’s why the “and then the RotS rolled over and gave up” that was implied with HotW and his story about the Jaguars merc unit should be abandoned and we should see some real hell from what’s left.
Somewhere I have a list. IIRC basically every DCMS/CC front unit is unaccounted for, but the Wolf and Falcon front ones are.
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That's both insane and terrific that much of the RAF might've survived. I'd love to see what Raul Ortega and Shimmer (especially if she's Tara Bishop) could do with that.
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Did Raul survive the battle for Terra? If i remember correctly he was leading one of the many units Stone raised "out of thin air" and his unit took a beating (would have to check the IlClan trial book)
Also how much manpower did those units have left? While it sounds impressive if those are hovering below 50% then it doesn't say much (not to mention how is the supply situation) But for any state who manages to get them to join it would be a nice boost. I know the suns took in some remnants from Principes, Triari and even Fides units which accounted in total for roughly 2 battalions. And there are several units on a Free Worlds planet and the League doesn't know what to do with them at the moment.
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Keep in mind "unaccounted for" doesn't nesscarily mean "survived" given a lot of these units where on the DC and CC fronts, chances are IKEO will have some be wiped out by the CCAF and DCMS. Others may be alive but lacking in jump ship assists to go anywhere and thus largely be a partiuclarly nasty planetary defence force. even ones that ae surviving and mobile the HPG blackout might mean it's impossiable to cordinate with other surving regiments thus effectively leaving each unit "on it's own".
It's also possiable some of these units will cordinate and carve out a little protectorate. perhaps the isle of Skye?
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Seconding what Brian said. This is the unaccounted for list, not necessary survivors list. For example: XII Hastati was on that list until the short story about them unifying with NWH.
What ever is left isn’t likely to be anywhere near 100%. Even saying that, that’s a lot of equipment and soldiers out there.
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Did Raul survive the battle for Terra? If i remember correctly he was leading one of the many units Stone raised "out of thin air" and his unit took a beating (would have to check the IlClan trial book)
Also how much manpower did those units have left? While it sounds impressive if those are hovering below 50% then it doesn't say much (not to mention how is the supply situation) But for any state who manages to get them to join it would be a nice boost. I know the suns took in some remnants from Principes, Triari and even Fides units which accounted in total for roughly 2 battalions. And there are several units on a Free Worlds planet and the League doesn't know what to do with them at the moment.
Raul was captured by the Jade Falcons and later escaped.
The one thing I do kind of expect to see is Republic Troops going underground and fighting a guerilla war. Many will see Terra as there planet and not even Stone would have the right to surrender it or disband the Republic itself. It's kind of where I see Jonah Levin ending up as well as a redo of the guerilla wars in the Occupation Zones in the 3050's.
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this assumes those regiments where raised on Terra. IIRC the Hastati tend to be drawn from specific regions, so it's possiable some of these regiments will be more attached to another world, the XII for example where more aligned with Northwind.
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this assumes those regiments where raised on Terra. IIRC the Hastati tend to be drawn from specific regions, so it's possiable some of these regiments will be more attached to another world, the XII for example where more aligned with Northwind.
Those were usually the Principes and Triarii. The Hastati were the hammer with which to beat your opponents with (and Stone's brigade was the BIG hammer)
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Maybe but let's look at the regiments in question for a moment:
XVI Hastati Sentinels
-The unit retook Menkent from clan jade falcon in 3149, the 3151 map shows Menkent as jade falcon by 3151 so it's possiable they where eliminated during a jade falcon counter offensive as the falcons rushed Earth. It's also possiable the unit was stranged on Menkent while they refit and rested.
XI Principes Guards
- Destroyed by Clan Jade Falcon in 3149 (shattered fortress Page 90)
XII Principes Guards
- Destroyed on Pollux in Oct 3150 (ref: shattered fortress Page 91)
XIII Principes Guards
- Last reported garrisoning Episilon Erinadi, the world as of 3152 is in Capellan hands, likely lost fighting the CCAF
XIV Principes Guards
- Destroyed on Hall and Outreach (Shattered Fortress pg 64)
XV Principes Guards
- Unknown
X Triarii Protectors
- Last spotted in the fedsuns liberating Robinson, trapped in the fedsuns maybe?
XI Triarii Protectors
- Last known activity was liberating Liberty from the CCAF, by 3152 the world is back in Capellan hands, destroyed defending it?
XII Triarii Protectors
- Destroyed "to the last soldier" on Garcux (Shattered fortress pg 82)
XIII Triarii Protectors
- Strongly resented and disliked fortress Republic, may have gone rogue?
2nd Fides
- destroyed on Polux alongside the XII Princips.
3rd Fides
Utterly unmentioned best I can find
6th Fides
- Last noted to be on Northwind during the fighting with the capellans and dracs.
I do wanna note regarding the Fides, we cannot discount the possiabilty that they joined the Fidelis (which would give the remaining Fidelis a shot in the arm if TPTB wanted to keep the Fidelis alive and distinct from the nuJags) we also can't discount that some of the unaccounted for Fides ended up JOINING the Jags.
So on a further anylasis there's honestly not many RAF units unaccounted for.
With 1 Hastati unit (likely destroyed) 2 Princips units (One likely destroyed the other unaccounted for) 3 Triarii Units, (one likely destroyed, 1 possiably trapped in the fedsuns 1 completely unaccounted for)
This means a pesimisstic account means there are 1 Princips and 1 Triarii unit left
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XIII Principes Guards
- Last reported garrisoning Episilon Erinadi, the world as of 3152 is in Capellan hands, likely lost fighting the CCAF
One of the Stoned regiments made a orderly pull out after Danai landed with her BMC regiment. It was 2 regiments & a Warrior House vs militia, RAF line unit and the Stoned IIRC. They made them bleed, tested remote control gear . . . almost like they were giving it away . . . and then lifted offworld even if they could have hammered the Capellan forces harder before retreating.
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I expect we will see some of these Republic forces act as the speed bumps for CapCon and they try to extend their authority into the former Prefecture X worlds. I bet a few got isolated due to tack of transport or communications, and just couldn't make it back to Terra in time for the big show.
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Maybe but let's look at the regiments in question for a moment:
XVI Hastati Sentinels
-The unit retook Menkent from clan jade falcon in 3149, the 3151 map shows Menkent as jade falcon by 3151 so it's possiable they where eliminated during a jade falcon counter offensive as the falcons rushed Earth. It's also possiable the unit was stranged on Menkent while they refit and rested.
XI Principes Guards
- Destroyed by Clan Jade Falcon in 3149 (shattered fortress Page 90)
XII Principes Guards
- Destroyed on Pollux in Oct 3150 (ref: shattered fortress Page 91)
XIII Principes Guards
- Last reported garrisoning Episilon Erinadi, the world as of 3152 is in Capellan hands, likely lost fighting the CCAF
XIV Principes Guards
- Destroyed on Hall and Outreach (Shattered Fortress pg 64)
XV Principes Guards
- Unknown
X Triarii Protectors
- Last spotted in the fedsuns liberating Robinson, trapped in the fedsuns maybe?
XI Triarii Protectors
- Last known activity was liberating Liberty from the CCAF, by 3152 the world is back in Capellan hands, destroyed defending it?
XII Triarii Protectors
- Destroyed "to the last soldier" on Garcux (Shattered fortress pg 82)
XIII Triarii Protectors
- Strongly resented and disliked fortress Republic, may have gone rogue?
2nd Fides
- destroyed on Polux alongside the XII Princips.
3rd Fides
Utterly unmentioned best I can find
6th Fides
- Last noted to be on Northwind during the fighting with the capellans and dracs.
I do wanna note regarding the Fides, we cannot discount the possiabilty that they joined the Fidelis (which would give the remaining Fidelis a shot in the arm if TPTB wanted to keep the Fidelis alive and distinct from the nuJags) we also can't discount that some of the unaccounted for Fides ended up JOINING the Jags.
So on a further anylasis there's honestly not many RAF units unaccounted for.
With 1 Hastati unit (likely destroyed) 2 Princips units (One likely destroyed the other unaccounted for) 3 Triarii Units, (one likely destroyed, 1 possiably trapped in the fedsuns 1 completely unaccounted for)
This means a pesimisstic account means there are 1 Princips and 1 Triarii unit left
Alright. I’ll dig into it more. Found errors in my list on further searching
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It really will be up to developers to decide what they want to do with the faction at this point. I could see them going a few different routes like just having surviving units disband or go mercenary which could have potential to create units that look back to there former state with reverence like the Eradani Light Horse. Another option is a Goverment in Exile (the developers love the in-Exile bit) with surviving units and warriors living in some state perpetually building up to retake Terra and refound the Republic and the final option is surviving units going full Free Capella and acting as a terrorist organization and attacking the Wolves at random. The one thing I don't see is any surviving units pulling a Exodus.
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It really will be up to developers to decide what they want to do with the faction at this point. I could see them going a few different routes like just having surviving units disband or go mercenary which could have potential to create units that look back to there former state with reverence like the Eradani Light Horse. Another option is a Goverment in Exile (the developers love the in-Exile bit) with surviving units and warriors living in some state perpetually building up to retake Terra and refound the Republic and the final option is surviving units going full Free Capella and acting as a terrorist organization and attacking the Wolves at random. The one thing I don't see is any surviving units pulling a Exodus.
I would love it if they conquered the Marian Hegemony and founded the Marian Republic. Hopefully a republic far less expansionist than the Roman Republic.
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There are also, from FM 3145 p. 136, an unknown number of Republic special forces units that were sent out of the Fortress over the years. One, the battalion-sized Bartlett's Boxers, was last seen in WWE 2019, losing to Napoleonic War reenactors in March 3150. Perhaps it and/or others still survive.
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It really will be up to developers to decide what they want to do with the faction at this point. I could see them going a few different routes like just having surviving units disband or go mercenary which could have potential to create units that look back to there former state with reverence like the Eradani Light Horse. Another option is a Goverment in Exile (the developers love the in-Exile bit) with surviving units and warriors living in some state perpetually building up to retake Terra and refound the Republic and the final option is surviving units going full Free Capella and acting as a terrorist organization and attacking the Wolves at random. The one thing I don't see is any surviving units pulling a Exodus.
somehow outright terrorist org strikes me as a little ... ehh..
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somehow outright terrorist org strikes me as a little ... ehh..
It's not like it's the first time in-universe that a organization like it has existed. And it would be a distinct possibility if the Republic lacks the force of arms.
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The mainline RAF were as close to goody two-shoes soldiers as the setting gets. So they wouldn’t likely do that.
Now, the Ghost Knights? Yes, some of those would be capable of terrorism and all sorts of the worst kinds of assymetric warfare.
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Maybe but let's look at the regiments in question for a moment:
.
.
.
I do wanna note regarding the Fides, we cannot discount the possiabilty that they joined the Fidelis (which would give the remaining Fidelis a shot in the arm if TPTB wanted to keep the Fidelis alive and distinct from the nuJags) we also can't discount that some of the unaccounted for Fides ended up JOINING the Jags.
So on a further anylasis there's honestly not many RAF units unaccounted for.
With 1 Hastati unit (likely destroyed) 2 Princips units (One likely destroyed the other unaccounted for) 3 Triarii Units, (one likely destroyed, 1 possiably trapped in the fedsuns 1 completely unaccounted for)
This means a pesimisstic account means there are 1 Princips and 1 Triarii unit left
Okay. Was more thorough. Still could have made mistakes here or there, but for my own enjoyment of the franchise I don’t think I’ll open Shattered Fortress, HotW, or ilClan again. Too much concentrated contrivance and “OMG Wolfs kicked ass again!”
Units not listed as destroyed somewhere and who weren’t on Terra.
VII Hastati Sentinels - Fought Wolves on Callison, withdrew with heavy losses
XVI Hastati Sentinels - Hit by falcons on Zollikofen, no more notes
XIII Principes Guards - XIII was everywhere pretending to be everyone against CCAF.
VIII Triarii Protectors - Fought Wolves on Marcus, withdrew with heavy losses
XI Triarii Protectors - Won against 5th MAC on New Home
XIII Triarii Protectors - Won against 5th MAC on New Home
3rd Fides - No known deployment
6th Fides - Fought on Baxter. Took Losses, nothing solid.
That’s the end of facts as best I can get. Assumptions/ideas below:
- Heavy losses historically was 30% since by then the chain of command has plenty of holes and you’re probably just short of suffering serious losses. So the units listed as taking heavy losses are probably combat capable with basic repairs.
- SF calls out when units were unable to flee. These have already been removed from the list.
- XII Hastati aren’t on the list because we know they were absorbed into NWH.
- XIII Principes was split across multiple planets and pretending to be a bunch of units to disguise RAF troop movements. Some parts surrounded and cut off, some not.
- Hastati are 1/2/3 regiments of Mech/tank/inf wotj ASF support. Principes are .67/3/3, Triarii .33/3/3, Fides are .67/2/1 and a BA battalion
- I can’t buy Brian’s suggestion that Fides went the Fidelis route and betrayed the RAF to become nuJags. Mostly because they aren’t Jag descendants. Also, because the 180 of the Fidelis betrayal was unbelievable in the first place.
So, if at 100% strength (they wouldn’t be), that’s:
5 regiments mechs, 20 regiments tanks, 20 infantry/BA, and a little above average ASF support by IS standards.
As for where they are, the ones likely to be in the best shape seem to be on the Capellan front. Though a few could rally somewhere in the shattered remains of the Falcon OZ
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So, if at 100% strength (they wouldn’t be), that’s:
5 regiments mechs, 20 regiments tanks, 20 infantry/BA, and a little above average ASF support by IS standards.
As for where they are, the ones likely to be in the best shape seem to be on the Capellan front. Though a few could rally somewhere in the shattered remains of the Falcon OZ
I remember there being some ex-Republic forces in Dominions Divided both Raiding and working for the FedSuns. That might inform what happened to some of those regiments.
It really will be up to developers to decide what they want to do with the faction at this point. I could see them going a few different routes like just having surviving units disband or go mercenary which could have potential to create units that look back to there former state with reverence like the Eradani Light Horse. Another option is a Goverment in Exile (the developers love the in-Exile bit) with surviving units and warriors living in some state perpetually building up to retake Terra and refound the Republic and the final option is surviving units going full Free Capella and acting as a terrorist organization and attacking the Wolves at random. The one thing I don't see is any surviving units pulling a Exodus.
I think we will see in IKEO that the Capellan front forces ground down over 3151, and between, the lack of communication, transport, and the surrender order we'll see those regiments fragment and start to look for new homes, rather than concentrate and doing something Republican. My impression from DD and from that Shrapnel story, is that there are a lot of smaller exRAF groups running around trying to make a living.
I don't see TPTB giving the Republic an out besides that which survives inside of the ilClan. The Republican's will continue to exist and maybe even drive events, but not under their own flag.
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Worth noting. The 5 regiments mechs annd impressive conventional forces is stuff still out and about. There’s still the survivors of another 20 regiments of mechjocks and probably 40 of vehicle assets sitting on Terra who are just looking for a good time. 3SW was an era defined by a surplus of pilots and few mechs. IlClan is defined so far by a surplus of mechs and few pilots. A (not so) simple prison break off Terra and suddenly the RotS Remnants have a lot of the most important asset of the era.
I do think RotS is probably done. The desire to end them regardless of logic, logistics, numbers, and everything else wasn’t isolated to BLP. It started in Shattered Fortress with a lot of unwarranted nonsense of nonstop losses and ignoring the power of massed conventional assets. I’m guessing RotS will die quietly and undignified into the new era and piss off its fans, who will basically get ignored as they aren’t huge in number.
I don't see TPTB giving the Republic an out besides that which survives inside of the ilClan. The Republican's will continue to exist and maybe even drive events, but not under their own flag.
I’ll say this as one of the few vocal RotS fans. After the complete dumpster fire of HotW, I’d rather them just fizzle into nothing than be turned into lackeys of the worst Mary Sue of the setting. Have them be a tiny piece of FWL or FS is fine, but TPTB should have more class than rubbing salt in the wound by making them Alaric’s toadies
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I’ll say this as one of the few vocal RotS fans. After the complete dumpster fire of HotW, I’d rather them just fizzle into nothing than be turned into lackeys of the worst Mary Sue of the setting. Have them be a tiny piece of FWL or FS is fine, but TPTB should have more class than rubbing salt in the wound by making them Alaric’s toadies
Bad enough they did it to Tara Campbell, arguably one of the biggest pro-Republic characters of the Dark Age.
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I’ll say this as one of the few vocal RotS fans. After the complete dumpster fire of HotW, I’d rather them just fizzle into nothing than be turned into lackeys of the worst Mary Sue of the setting. Have them be a tiny piece of FWL or FS is fine, but TPTB should have more class than rubbing salt in the wound by making them Alaric’s toadies
Them creating a minor state near the middle of the Inner Sphere is quite difficult, at most a periphery state or large mercenary force.
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Them creating a minor state near the middle of the Inner Sphere is quite difficult, at most a periphery state or large mercenary force.
I would actually be okay with a hard ass merc force that takes every anti-clan wolf contract they can get. One that alters flow of war in the Terran corridor.
As for microstates: wolf empire’s neck to Terra is poorly defended. Falcon OZ is poorly defended. So that’s two areas where they could set hold and be damn hard to root out.
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Personally I like the idea of a Goverment-in-Exile in some other state, the FedSuns come to mind that can act as both reinforcements to the FedSuns bit also as a place for former RoTS units to rally to and gather together. Always just on the edge of moving to attempt to retake Terra from the Wolves but never quite there. Sort of like Gibson was for the WoB except no Hidden Worlds for the Republic Remnant!
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Personally I like the idea of a Goverment-in-Exile in some other state, the FedSuns come to mind that can act as both reinforcements to the FedSuns bit also as a place for former RoTS units to rally to and gather together. Always just on the edge of moving to attempt to retake Terra from the Wolves but never quite there. Sort of like Gibson was for the WoB except no Hidden Worlds for the Republic Remnant!
A FedSuns based RotS group based around Tybalt probably if they go that route.
If FWL, I want it not to be just adding Augustine Alliance, something new. So we can have the rough edges fun there.
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If FWL, I want it not to be just adding Augustine Alliance, something new. So we can have the rough edges fun there.
It'd mean war with the FWL, I think- SHOFAR was turfed out by internecine violence excepting where it has consolidated on Talitha, and The Wolf Empire's Watch organization regards the Republic forces gathered on Talitha as paralyzing FWL operations against the Wolf Empire in that region. The Republic is not a benign memory to the Free Worlds League.
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Another Republic memberstate is not beyond the scope of possibility and would retain its cultural identity and nearly all of its sovereignty. Just know that planets have the right to secede from memberstates if they please. As Walrus said, the League side worlds may not be the most open to the idea, but there may be some willing systems.
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Another Republic memberstate is not beyond the scope of possibility and would retain its cultural identity and nearly all of its sovereignty. Just know that planets have the right to secede from memberstates if they please. As Walrus said, the League side worlds may not be the most open to the idea, but there may be some willing systems.
Well Marcus and Callison were taken anyway, and ex-Paladin Ariana Zou was instrumental and she used pro-Republic resistance sentiment to do it. The thing to focus on is what the FWL stands to do if the Republic tries to re-establish itself as an independent polity, as opposed to a possible sub-polity or set of ideologies among many in the bits of the map colored purple.
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Could be an attempt at an independent, RotS in exile that just can’t do it. Doesn’t have the numbers, hit too hard by X/Y/Z, etc. and FWL takes them in as a member state
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Another option would be for a RoTS splinter to take abandonded Wolf Worlds in the former Lyran Commonwealth. The Lyrans are moving very slow and the Wolves are very much staying on Terra that the Republic if they moved quickly enough could secure several worlds.
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If an independent Republic were to survive, it would either need good domestic mech production of its own, or sufficient production that when combined with outside support would make it defensible. That region of Lyran space is not the best region for production.
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If an independent Republic were to survive, it would either need good domestic mech production of its own, or sufficient production that when combined with outside support would make it defensible. That region of Lyran space is not the best region for production.
This is a valid concern. Is there one in the Falcon OZ?
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This is a valid concern. Is there one in the Falcon OZ?
I'm pretty sure that all the major factory worlds in the former Falcon OZ have been claimed by the splinter groups already.
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If you held Furillo, Hesperus and Solaris, you would be a potent for your size, but would be in for a rough campaign just to take them. Holding them would be near impossible short of all regional powers simply being too exhausted to do anything about it.
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If you held Furillo, Hesperus and Solaris, you would be a potent for your size, but would be in for a rough campaign just to take them. Holding them would be near impossible short of all regional powers simply being too exhausted to do anything about it.
preserving the ROTS at the expense of the Lyran Commonwealth is a non starter, and giving a ROTS splitner Hespetus II and Furillio would very much ensure the death of the LC
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The idea that a small, unsupported group of ROTS refugees could actually take any of those worlds is also a non-starter.
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Wouldn't it be more efficent to go after planets that were just recently conquered? If a sizeable remnant from the RAF goes after Graham IV, Oliver, Pollux and Devil's Rock they would have a sizeable industry on their hands (not to mention the Rhodes workshops) The Wolves have no garrisons on said planets so taking them would be easy. Of course I don't know if those planets are now in thje hands of someone else say the Capellans or the Mariks
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If you went after those planets, it would be wise to ask for League membership status. For one thing, you would be right in the middle of what may turn out to be a major campaign of the League's. For another, if you do not join the League, the Capellans and Wolves are more than ready to poach those worlds through raw force.
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That’s stringing Capellans out hard to get those and even the most optimistic predictions for CC against wolves assume wolves will take most of CC’s attention and resources in that area.
FWL of ilClan aren’t clans. If the planets are owned by not wolves, decent chance they just won’t invade.
Lyrans don’t have enough or aren’t willing to take them.
Wolf Empire might have two clusters in range to defend the area. Neither of which are the best pilots or equipment.
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FWL of ilClan aren’t clans. If the planets are owned by not wolves, decent chance they just won’t invade.
As a matter of course, the League is trying to restore its military production. It is missing many key worlds, including Andurien. Gibson will not be restored.
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To put it another way, critical Free Worlds League factory worlds were handed to the Wolves like candy, were contingent parts of the Duchy of Andurien (See Andurien and Shiro III), were part of the Republic or its remnants, or completely unusable by 3148. I might go so far as to say that the League at that time had the weakest manufacturing power of any Successor State, save House Davion. The League has recovered some critical worlds since then, but Keystone and others remain.
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To put it another way, critical Free Worlds League factory worlds were handed to the Wolves like candy, were contingent parts of the Duchy of Andurien (See Andurien and Shiro III), were part of the Republic or its remnants, or completely unusable by 3148. I might go so far as to say that the League at that time had the weakest manufacturing power of any Successor State, save House Davion. The League has recovered some critical worlds since then, but Keystone and others remain.
If the league has hit a point where it’s thinking about hitting a semi-established RotS in exile, it’s also probably retaken some or all of the following: Thermopolis, Keystone, Geinah, Stewart (already did), and I think Oliver(?).
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The idea that a small, unsupported group of ROTS refugees could actually take any of those worlds is also a non-starter.
Seriously. The Commonwealth is committed to keeping Hesperus II at the expense of any other planet in the Inner Sphere. That's why the Yggdrasil is parked there. And Furillo's got the personal unit of the General of the Armies garrisoning it.
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Solaris would be the best world to go after. Lots of mechs already on planet as well as facility's to repair and produce battlemechs. The Wolves would have little interest in the Game World as well.
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Short version
XVI Hastati Sentinels
XI Principes Guards
XII Principes Guards
XIII Principes Guards
XIV Principes Guards
XV Principes Guards
X Triarii Protectors
XI Triarii Protectors
XII Triarii Protectors
XIII Triarii Protectors
2nd Fides
3rd Fides
6th Fides
I made this a while ago basedon Shattered Fortress.
Hastati Sentinels Regiments
7th Hastati (Heavily damaged on Callison, Arianna Zou taken bondswoman by Clan Wolf)(Wolf Empire, 3150)
10th Hastati (Defeated on Wing, retreated) (Wolf Empire 3150)
11th Hastati (Defeated, drove to ground on Thorin) (CJF 3151)
13th Hastati’s (1 Battalion on Epsilon Indi, 1 Battalion damaged on Bryant, remaining Battalion mauled on New Home) (House Liao, 3149)
15th Hastatis (defeated on Castor) (Wolf Empire 3150)
Principes Guards Regiments
3rd Principes (1st Battalion on Chertan, hurt on Marcus) (Wolf Empire 3149, 3150)
10th Principes (Partially destroyed on Shiloh) (Wolf Empire 3150)
11th Principes (Destroyed/absorbed on Alula Australis, fought CJF on Thorin) (Wolf Empire 3151)
12th Principes (Defeated on Phecda, retreated, destroyed on Pollux) (Wolf Empire 3150, 3151)
14th Principes (1 battalion lost on Hall, 1 battalion lost on Outreach) (House Liao 3149)
13th Principes (1st battalion lost on Episolon Eridani, 2nd battalion Lost on Terra Firma)(House Liao 3149)
15th Principes (Destroyed/Absorbed on Denebola) (Wolf Empire, 3150)
Triarii Protectors Regiments
8th Triarii Protectors (Defeated on Alhena, hurt on Marcus) (Wolf Empire 3149, 3150)
10 Triarii Protectors (Destroyed on Wing) (Wolf Empire 3150)
11th Triarii Protectors (defeated on Outreach, showed back up on Liberty)(House Liao 3149)
12th Triarii Protectors (Destroyed to the last on Garcrux) (3150)
13th Triarii Protectors (Defeated on Procyon, 3149) (House Liao)
Fides Defenders
1st Fides (Defeated on Shiloh, forced to retreat, destroyed on Graham IV) (Wolf Empire 3150)
2nd Fides (Defeated on Phecda, retreated, destroyed on Pollux) (Wolf Empire 3150, 3151)
4th Fides (Destroyed on Rigil Kentarus, fought alongside Clan Wolf) (Clan Jade Falcon, 3151)
5th Fides (Defeated on Castor) (wolf Empire 3150)
Republic Mercs
Aquamarines (Forced to ground on Formahault, 3150)
First Army Group
10th Hastati, Principes, Triarii, 1st Fides Defenders
2nd Army Group
11th Principes, 12th Principes, 12th Triarii, 2nd Fides Defenders
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Stewart (already did)
Was this the league? I thought that was the Protectorate playing defense for the Empire so the Foxes could get their HPGs.
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Was this the league? I thought that was the Protectorate playing defense for the Empire so the Foxes could get their HPGs.
Speaking of the Foxes. Anyone think Alaric will have issues with them trading with the other Clans and the Successor States? A lot of that captured gear from the Republic will be very tempting to sell off.
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Solaris would be the best world to go after. Lots of mechs already on planet as well as facility's to repair and produce battlemechs. The Wolves would have little interest in the Game World as well.
I think most of their production was destroyed in the Jihad.
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I made this a while ago basedon Shattered Fortress.
Hastati Sentinels Regiments
7th Hastati (Heavily damaged on Callison, Arianna Zou taken bondswoman by Clan Wolf)(Wolf Empire, 3150)
10th Hastati (Defeated on Wing, retreated) (Wolf Empire 3150)
11th Hastati (Defeated, drove to ground on Thorin) (CJF 3151)
13th Hastati’s (1 Battalion on Epsilon Indi, 1 Battalion damaged on Bryant, remaining Battalion mauled on New Home) (House Liao, 3149)
15th Hastatis (defeated on Castor) (Wolf Empire 3150)
Principes Guards Regiments
3rd Principes (1st Battalion on Chertan, hurt on Marcus) (Wolf Empire 3149, 3150)
10th Principes (Partially destroyed on Shiloh) (Wolf Empire 3150)
11th Principes (Destroyed/absorbed on Alula Australis, fought CJF on Thorin) (Wolf Empire 3151)
12th Principes (Defeated on Phecda, retreated, destroyed on Pollux) (Wolf Empire 3150, 3151)
14th Principes (1 battalion lost on Hall, 1 battalion lost on Outreach) (House Liao 3149)
13th Principes (1st battalion lost on Episolon Eridani, 2nd battalion Lost on Terra Firma)(House Liao 3149)
15th Principes (Destroyed/Absorbed on Denebola) (Wolf Empire, 3150)
Triarii Protectors Regiments
8th Triarii Protectors (Defeated on Alhena, hurt on Marcus) (Wolf Empire 3149, 3150)
10 Triarii Protectors (Destroyed on Wing) (Wolf Empire 3150)
11th Triarii Protectors (defeated on Outreach, showed back up on Liberty)(House Liao 3149)
12th Triarii Protectors (Destroyed to the last on Garcrux) (3150)
13th Triarii Protectors (Defeated on Procyon, 3149) (House Liao)
Fides Defenders
1st Fides (Defeated on Shiloh, forced to retreat, destroyed on Graham IV) (Wolf Empire 3150)
2nd Fides (Defeated on Phecda, retreated, destroyed on Pollux) (Wolf Empire 3150, 3151)
4th Fides (Destroyed on Rigil Kentarus, fought alongside Clan Wolf) (Clan Jade Falcon, 3151)
5th Fides (Defeated on Castor) (wolf Empire 3150)
Republic Mercs
Aquamarines (Forced to ground on Formahault, 3150)
First Army Group
10th Hastati, Principes, Triarii, 1st Fides Defenders
2nd Army Group
11th Principes, 12th Principes, 12th Triarii, 2nd Fides Defenders
Yeah, go back a page or two and I made a much more refined list. That one had been every unit not appearing on Terra
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Speaking of the Foxes. Anyone think Alaric will have issues with them trading with the other Clans and the Successor States? A lot of that captured gear from the Republic will be very tempting to sell off.
I don't think he's in a position to object.
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And when it comes to trading with the other Clans he has no reason to object. Trading with the Inner Sphere, sure but as pointed out his ability to do so is quite limited.
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Also most of the clans to one degree or another have trade ties with the inner sphere,
We know the Bears and ravens are selling to great houses, there's no evidance eaither way for the horses, but proably not more due to lack of shared borders/oppertunity then anything I suspect. even the wolves due to their absorbing the exiles have some degree a history of trade with the IS. And this may well accelerate for the Terran clans simply ebcause they're likely sitting on a wealth of luxery export goods.
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I think most of their production was destroyed in the Jihad.
The Jihad is what nearly 100 years over by now? I would expect that the Lyrans pump enough money onto the planet to revive Blue Shot Weapons and VEST. Plus the on planet games also need those services as well. the question is how much of that is still working after the Wolves took over?
And I don't expect Alaric to even try to squeze the Foxes. He is so dependent on them he can't make demands simply because he is the leader of the IlClan. Plus the Foxes are divided into several trading fleets already. Try to coordinate that in an age of a missing HPG network.
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Yeah, go back a page or two and I made a much more refined list. That one had been every unit not appearing on Terra
I quoted that refined list and posted my list to point out some of the units you had a missing/unaccounted for were actually destroyed prior to the Battle of Terra, which is why they don't appear.
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I quoted that refined list and posted my list to point out some of the units you had a missing/unaccounted for were actually destroyed prior to the Battle of Terra, which is why they don't appear.
You quoted my old list, which was just units not listed in HotW/ilclan. This was my refined list
VII Hastati Sentinels - Fought Wolves on Callison, withdrew with heavy losses
XVI Hastati Sentinels - Hit by falcons on Zollikofen, no more notes
XIII Principes Guards - XIII was everywhere pretending to be everyone against CCAF.
VIII Triarii Protectors - Fought Wolves on Marcus, withdrew with heavy losses
XI Triarii Protectors - Won against 5th MAC on New Home
XIII Triarii Protectors - Won against 5th MAC on New Home
3rd Fides - No known deployment
6th Fides - Fought on Baxter. Took Losses, nothing solid.
I’d go and check further, but I do not enjoy reading Shattered Fortress, CoK, HotW, or ilclan. So if I made mistakes, they’ll stay mistakes rather than forcing myself to comb through that garbage plot line for the umpteenth time.
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I don't think he's in a position to object.
He has some sway purely through the fact a lot of the salvage is on Terra itself. The Foxes job is to manage the salvage rather than to profit off of it. Though I would be amused if he caught them with there hand in the cookie jar and they renamed themselves Diamond Sharks in a effort to avoid responsibility.
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We do know some elements of the Fides that were on New Earth were allowed leave without having to join the Wolves. I don't think that those folks who left were named unit.
I do think it was disappointing they didn't keep the unit organization with century and so forth.
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He has some sway purely through the fact a lot of the salvage is on Terra itself. The Foxes job is to manage the salvage rather than to profit off of it. Though I would be amused if he caught them with there hand in the cookie jar and they renamed themselves Diamond Sharks in a effort to avoid responsibility.
First he'd have to catch them, not easy since he seems to be completely dependent on the Foxes for all his off-Terra news. And if he did catch them, what is he actually going to do about it?
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The Wolves would have little interest in the Game World as well.
Not the case, actually. The Wolves were using the arenas as both a source of new warriors and to do their annual Great Reavings (IIRC from the Shrapnel article), and apparently now the Foxes are selling Wolf-made military equipment made on Terra there.
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Not the case, actually. The Wolves were using the arenas as both a source of new warriors and to do their annual Great Reavings (IIRC from the Shrapnel article), and apparently now the Foxes are selling Wolf-made military equipment made on Terra there.
Missed that. I would figure the hatred of the Game World would keep them from doing anything other than shutting it down. Though the repair and maintenance facilitys alone would make the world a prize all by itself. And if there is any production facility's the Wolves would have wanted those as well. The move on Terra would have left all that unguarded and unclaimed.
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Also most of the clans to one degree or another have trade ties with the inner sphere,
We know the Bears and ravens are selling to great houses, there's no evidance eaither way for the horses, but proably not more due to lack of shared borders/oppertunity then anything I suspect. even the wolves due to their absorbing the exiles have some degree a history of trade with the IS. And this may well accelerate for the Terran clans simply ebcause they're likely sitting on a wealth of luxery export goods.
Not most, all Clans and to quite a big degree
Even Scorpions who live way out in Deep Periphery regularly trade with the Inner Sphere via Sea Foxes, these days probably even directly
Galaxy could burn but germanium would still flow
Just check Sea Fox MUL, they have everything coming from Coromodir to Granada and from Alphard to Alpheratz
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I'm not sure if the moratorium on spoilers from Technical Readout: Dark Age has expired or not - or rather, spoilers from its sample PDF on DriveThruRPG - but I'll put things in spoiler tags just in case:
According to the 3250 blurb in that file('s preview PDF), there is at some point going to be a "Star League Regular Army", which serves alongside each Clan's touman in the SLDF-to-be.
Indeed, it's noted that Gunslingers - who in the blurb are directly compared to the Republic's Paladins - are to be drawn from both Clan and Regular Army ranks, based on individual merit.
Further, the retrospective view of the Republic Era - as it lasted prior to the Blackout, at least - is much more nuanced in this blurb than one might see from the "current" administration on Terra at last reporting.
All told, I still suspect that, in the medium to long turn - perhaps after the "Last Annihilation", whatever that is supposed to be, takes place - the strongest legacy of the Republic of the Sphere shall be found within the body of the ilClan itself.
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That said, so far as where the "post-Terra" RAF exiles might go:
I wonder if it would be an option for them to consider the Timbuktu Collective.
The current political structure of the Collective is as yet unclear, but the preceding Rim Collection had built up a strong democratic tradition - one which I hope persists in some form - yet one which still was "flexible" enough to grant Able's Aces a somewhat.... bespoke place within its society.
Yet while the Lyran Commonwealth had quite cordial relations with the Rim Collection, it at the very least sees the worlds on the old Lyran side of the border which it had seized from the old Rim Worlds Republic in the first place that are part of the Timbuktu Collective as "going rogue". Not that the LCAF is in any fit state to do anything about this for a while... or, at least, so the folks on Timbuktu hope.
So, if the RAF holdouts are looking for a place of refuge close enough to the Inner Sphere without being under the rule of a House Lord on the one hand, yet far enough from any of the Clan OZs to allow for a process of rebuilding and regrouping on the other, they might find the Collective government to be an amenable host and partner.
Actually, might doing this make the Collective the closest thing in the "prime" BattleTech universe to Empires Aflame's Rim Federation?
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Alternatively, if they want to go somewhere where the local authorities might not need too much effort to be overthrown - and would not be missed by the Inner Sphere and near Periphery states were that to happen - they could make a play for control of the Rim Territories.
Although, this would put them somewhat closer to the nearest Clan OZ - to perhaps include the Scorpion Empire, should they decide to make a long-term effort to seize the Territories for themselves.
But then, perhaps this might make for an interesting setup in its own right: a three-way battle between the local pirates, the RAF exiles, and an expeditionary force from the Clan Goliath Scorpion touman?
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If the post-ilClan remnants of the Republic are still going to factor into the story in any way, I certainly hope they can do better by them than to make them yet another forgettable and irrelevant Periphery rump faction. But I honestly don't see TPTB doing anything with what scant few are left of the Republic at this point.
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Quite possibly the Republic is gone but it's ideals / ideas will take form within said IlClan and perhaps take over slowly given the time. Remember pure Clanners are becoming rare the longer the wars go so they have to go native at one point. Maybe Stone wasn't as stoned as we think when he invited the Wolves to Terra. Or as one discussion in one of the course books points out "Maybe Terra is a poison pill and the Bears were content with watching the Wolves swallow it"
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Quite possibly the Republic is gone but it's ideals / ideas will take form within said IlClan and perhaps take over slowly given the time. Remember pure Clanners are becoming rare the longer the wars go so they have to go native at one point. Maybe Stone wasn't as stoned as we think when he invited the Wolves to Terra. Or as one discussion in one of the course books points out "Maybe Terra is a poison pill and the Bears were content with watching the Wolves swallow it"
- I feel like if the meta plot was for the RotS to have significant influence in the wolves, Alaric wouldn’t have dissolved the Republic. Absorbing it would have opened the narrative path to having RotS ideals infect and temper the Wolf hyper nationalist jingoism. Ending the RotS (dissolution) was meant (author’s words) to slam the book shut on the Republic.
- Wolves, Falcons, Ravens, and Horses are still pretty pure clanners. So it’s not really like they are mellowing.
- Stone wasn’t “stoned” when he invited wolves to Terra. He used a one of a kind tool to take a calculated risk to isolate enemies and defeat them in detail. And if the falcons hadn’t come as well, it would’ve worked.
- Bears didn’t want Terra because it would be a cultural poison pill to them unlike any other clan.
Regarding 3250 Blurbs, I would say just ignore them. CGL has put in too much effort into 3152, has too much story to tell for the next few years of lore, and knows that. I’d be stunned if they make the time jump any time soon. I wouldn’t be surprised if they end up retconned by the time a future story group wants to do the time jump
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So far the powers that be have only retconed a small bit of lore and a pair of chapters from one book that hemmed them in a bit with a possible Republic victory. A blurb in a unreleased book would be wearily ignored.
I do miss the old Comstar blurbs though.
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So far the powers that be have only retconed a small bit of lore and a pair of chapters from one book that hemmed them in a bit with a possible Republic victory. A blurb in a unreleased book would be wearily ignored.
I do miss the old Comstar blurbs though.
I do appreciate that they don’t retcon unless it’s unavoidable. The 3250 blurbs have vagueness that allows room for story, but also occur so far into the setting future that worrying about them in relation to current stories is pointless.
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- I feel like if the meta plot was for the RotS to have significant influence in the wolves, Alaric wouldn’t have dissolved the Republic. Absorbing it would have opened the narrative path to having RotS ideals infect and temper the Wolf hyper nationalist jingoism. Ending the RotS (dissolution) was meant (author’s words) to slam the book shut on the Republic.
Per Ben Rome's Clan of Il... that was the original intent. With the original cover of ilClan being Stone fighting Alaric.
Terra, January 3151 Unable to stop the Wolf juggernaut, Stone appeals to Alaric to make the battle for Terra more of a Tukayyid-style series of engagements, with five battles on five continents. Former Exarch Jonah Levin commands the five battles, but the Republic only wins one. During the Wolves’ celebration, Devlin Stone challenges Alaric for the right to be the Exarch, and wins in a battle of wits that places him as the “Cameron” to Alaric’s “Kerensky.” Alaric declares himself ilKhan by right of conquest
Looking at how unnecessary Stone was to the events in Shattered Fortress and ilClan. With the Stone role easily been played by Levin. It feels like Stone was initially brought back into the setting FM/ER3145 to be an agent of transformation that made ilClan state into a Is-clan hybrid society. The 3250 blurbs from this era mentioning an ExArch (sorta) support this hypothesis.
If that's Fusion state still the goal of TPTB And I feel that placing Tara as a Khan of the Falcons is already leaning that way.
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And I feel that placing Tara as a Khan of the Falcons is already leaning that way.
Tara's not a Khan (at least, not yet). She's mostly just there to be Knives Chistu's advisor/conscience.
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Per Ben Rome's Clan of Il... that was the original intent. With the original cover of ilClan being Stone fighting Alaric.
Looking at how unnecessary Stone was to the events in Shattered Fortress and ilClan. With the Stone role easily been played by Levin. It feels like Stone was initially brought back into the setting FM/ER3145 to be an agent of transformation that made ilClan state into a Is-clan hybrid society. The 3250 blurbs from this era mentioning an ExArch (sorta) support this hypothesis.
If that's Fusion state still the goal of TPTB And I feel that placing Tara as a Khan of the Falcons is already leaning that way.
Original intent is a bag of cats. Originally the RotS survived the Fortress. Originally Stone was supposedly gonna come back a villain. Then we had Ben Rome’s ideas where the RotS joins the Wolfes and Alaric finds the One Piece and rule happily ever after. Literally. He rules an era of peace and blah blah until he dies and then everything falls apart with completely mangled factions.
Grumbling aside, yeah, I buy that RotS would have more influence in that series of events that didn’t happen.
What we got instead was the Wolfes and Falcons suddenly dumpstering every RAF unit they faced while suffering no meaningful casualties. Literally destroying (if I have my numbers right) over one hundred regiments of mechs and tanks while losing paltry numbers themselves until they fought each other. The RotS was absolutely smashed as an influential figure in the setting militarily, and then dissolved and abandoned as a cohesive government.
You don’t write that if you plan for them to matter. Then you don’t tolerate an author to go and explain how he demanded the faction die and be gone for good if he was writing HotW. Pardon my cynicism. I expect basically nothing of the RotS in ilClan. It died a BS death and will now in all likelihood be abandoned and forgotten completely by the plot.
I do love the optimism on here as we find ways the RotS could rationally do or be even a scrap of something in ilClan.
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The RoTS can serve a function in the universes future. It can replace the Star League in the minds of the survivors as the Camelot that was lost to the barbarians that got inside the gates.
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The RoTS can serve a function in the universes future. It can replace the Star League in the minds of the survivors as the Camelot that was lost to the barbarians that got inside the gates.
It sort of gets reframed that way in TRO Dark Ages. Which boldly goes with “the republic actually established a peaceful era of rebuilding before we burned it to the ground.”
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I do appreciate that they don’t retcon unless it’s unavoidable. The 3250 blurbs have vagueness that allows room for story, but also occur so far into the setting future that worrying about them in relation to current stories is pointless.
Since a skip more than a couple decades isn't happening without a major shift in who's in charge, it's also pretty irrelevant in that by the time we get there, we'll all be too busy complaining about how much Project Deimos is costing us.
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Tara's not a Khan (at least, not yet). She's mostly just there to be Knives Chistu's advisor/conscience.
Or quite possibly the one who slays the mad king (Alaric)
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Or quite possibly the one who slays the mad king (Alaric)
We all know Alaric will trip in the shower.
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We all know Alaric will trip in the shower.
As much as CoK/HotW took Alaric from a solidly meh character to an awful setting warping Gary Stu, I don’t want Alaric offed in some stupid way. He’s unfortunately too important to the setting now. Whatever happens to him should be both significant to the plot and also his own fault.
I’m on team “Alaric runs into the reality that conquering isn’t ruling” and the clans have to do some soul searching before they off the ilKhan to preserve their fledgling league.
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I would love the wolves to be smashed by the capellans, saved by the Foxes, Ravens and others, and become a minor faction in the setting. They control Terra all right, but not much more than that. And the rest of the clans pay only lip service to the IlKhan and IlClan. Only when it suits their interests, but send solahma and other warrirs when summoned to do something for the IlKhan. A figurehead. One that can still bite from time to time (factions that cannot bite are not factions in BT) but a minor one that cannot really expand. One that controls the central planets of the setting because they are a VERY hot potato and so nobody really wants them in reality.
"You are the IlClan, the least powerful clan in the IS. All hail the IlClan."
Not gonna happen, but would be funny. Thre capellans reaching agreements with the other clans (without consulting the wolves) to end the bloodshed would be just hilarious.
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Which makes me guess this is the reason Alaric goes on the offensive. He not only has to secure a "ring" around Terra he also has to show he can lead war against the biggest fish in the IS pond. And that are the Capellans. Plus I bet that the news of the sundering of his Empire has reached the ears of his fellow Khans and they might see him differently "what you can't protect what you have earned through conquest? Time for an absorption!"
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I want to say an IlClan Civil War where the IS Clans get tossed up, the Houses a mess and the Homies show up to try a claim.
A real furball...
Then something else happens that makes the first four Successor Wars look like a sandbox kiddie pool fight...
TT
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Back on the topic of the Republic: the Republic had among it's ranks Knights who were from what I have seen all from the military or rather had a military career. In FM 3085 there was the idea of "civilian knights" as paragons for the civil population. Was that idea dropped? I mean we don't have much on the Republic lore in that regards but were there ever knights who came from a pure civilian background? The basic idea was to give civilians a chance to earn a knighthood and also to inspire civilians to do their best for the Republic (kind of what the Camerons at first did with the non hereditary awarding of noble titles to those who had shown total devotion and skill to the Hegemony)
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No. IIRC Janella Lakewood's father was a scientist who was also a knight. THere was also the owner of the Javapulse Generator coffee store. This all comes from Ghost War.
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If neither the Rim Territories nor the Timbuktu Collective were "interesting" enough by themselves - something I disagree with, in the case of the latter at least - then perhaps the RAF exiles could use one as a springboard to absorb the other?
As in, the RAF exiles head to Timbuktu and cut a deal with the Collective, and then later seize a foothold in the Territories in order to expand their holdings.
Which might involve recolonizing (or rediscovering) a few former Rim Worlds Republic systems in the gap between both areas... or, it might involve "borrowing" a few planets from the Lyran Commonwealth to get from one area to the other.
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As for the 3250 blurbs:
It's one thing if the things being hinted at, such as the Last Annihilation or the formation of the Star League Regular Army, were not due to happen until, say, 3200 or some such date.
Yet, given that the blurb in TRO:DA was written by the current Powers That Be, with the present-day "post-Hour of the Wolf" setting in mind, I would not be surprised if a few of these particular things start to happen sooner - a lot sooner - rather than later.
In the case of the Regular Army in particular: the Snow Ravens not only left the Alliance Military Corps - and its Inner Sphere regimental system - intact; they have upgraded it to Clan-spec technology, putting it above most aerospace forces in known space save for the Snow Raven touman itself.
Now, one might say that this is a mark of Snow Raven weakness, in terms of how few Galaxies they themselves operate - and how much of those assets are tied up with their WarShip fleet.
To which I would ask: weak compared to whom, exactly? Alariic's Wolves post-IlClan? The "Black Watch" Jade Falcons? The newly-reborn Smoke Jaguars? Or anyone else - such as the local Sea Foxes - in a position to hold back the Capellans, once the Fortress around the Sol system shuts down for good?
As with several other Clans (even the Goliath Scorpions, both before and after the Hanseatic Crusade) Alaric had already created Galaxies' worth of freeborn recruits prior to the invasion of Terra, and again in the run-up to the IlClan Trail. But the well of RAF and other freeborn veterans willing to sign up to Clan Wolf - if only to fight Malvina's Falcons - has since run dry.
So, if, say, Anastasia Kerensky, in her new role as Commanding General of the Star League Defense Forces, were to be the one to create the Star League Regular Army - and, yes, have it be run as an Inner Sphere regimental organization - perhaps some of those RAF veterans, or other would-be Terran recruits, who don't want to be Clanners yet also don't wish to see Daoshen Liao seize control of Terra, might see service in the new Regular Army as a more politically acceptable option.
So I would not be surprised if the Regular Army begins to emerge in the near-to-mid future - and that it proves to be a key means by which the de facto legacy of the Republic and is Armed Forces endures into the era of the ilClan... regardless of what Alaric might have intended at the time of Devlin Stone's surrender.
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I do not have Shattered Fortress handy, but was there any indication that Max Ergen's First Army rotated personnel after Eruptio before they went out to play on the Wolf side of the Fortress? X Hastati was part of his defeat on Wing and I would assume the X Triarii were there as well, but they show up in Church's list but not the Hastati . . . what happened to the remains of that unit? did they surrender to the Wolves instead of making it off world?
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I do not have Shattered Fortress handy, but was there any indication that Max Ergen's First Army rotated personnel after Eruptio before they went out to play on the Wolf side of the Fortress? X Hastati was part of his defeat on Wing and I would assume the X Triarii were there as well, but they show up in Church's list but not the Hastati . . . what happened to the remains of that unit? did they surrender to the Wolves instead of making it off world?
I didn’t see anything about personnel transfers. But that’s usually finer detail than sourcebook level. Also, my list took severe refining. It was originally just “not mentioned on Terra.”
EDIT: had to search other terms besides Hastati/Triarii.
“ Upon returning from combat on Robinson in late 3149, Ergen and First Army had briefly stopped on Terra to rearm and fill as many empty billets as Terra’s training centers and academies could allow.”
So sounds mostly restocked. Doesn’t specifically say second army did or didn’t as well, but seems like they would have
Wing was X Triarii and X Hastati against Golden Keshik, 3rd Wolf Guard, and 103rd Wolf Striker. She dropped with the Keshik on planet, had a trial of possession against Paladin, and won. RAF snapped and attacked the keshik, so Anastasia brought the two clusters down. X Triarii were wiped out and X Hastati retreated off planet.
X Hastati fought the Falcons on Terra at Geneva.
I actually just looked at Wing in SF so this was handy.
Spoilered because it’s sort of just ranting and I haven’t confirmed there wasn’t more fighting the X Hastati/Triarii were in that would effect starting strength enough to matter.
It’s another example of RAF losing because the plot demands. Assuming 100% strength on both sides (neither would be), Wolves dropped a force one third the strength of the RAF on planet and won decisively with little to no losses while inflicting major ones. Even if you ignore vehicle assets (which this setting does way too much) the mech assets of the republic were equivalent strength to the wolves entire force. If the RAF was in any sort of fighting shape (<30% losses), they should have trashed the wolves. I have to make up huge excuses for this wolf win to work.
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3 clusters vs 4 or 5? understrength mech battalions with 2 armor regiments . . . were the RAF in garrison? Based on the force descriptions in Shell Games
Honestly for Ergen's First Army, it would be a great time to rotate out some of the officers & troopers because they can pass their experience from the campaign on to formations staying behind the wall. The old Axis vs Allies training program paradigm, especially with Rock talking about lack of experience being one of the Fortress RAF's weaknesses with rapid growth.
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3 clusters vs 4 or 5? understrength mech battalions with 2 armor regiments . . . were the RAF in garrison? Based on the force descriptions in Shell Games
Honestly for Ergen's First Army, it would be a great time to rotate out some of the officers & troopers because they can pass their experience from the campaign on to formations staying behind the wall. The old Axis vs Allies training program paradigm, especially with Rock talking about lack of experience being one of the Fortress RAF's weaknesses with rapid growth.
An elite trinary, veteran cluster, and regular cluster. Third wolf guards (the regular) had just taken a beating before heading over. Golden Keshik just fought in “the hardest battle wolves faced so far” - the same one that pounded the 3rd Wolf. A month before the 103rd had seen combat. Wolves were in no possible way at full strength.
3 elite mech battalions, 1 veteran mech battalion, 2 elite tank regiments, 3 veteran tank regiments, 6 regiments of infantry, dedicated ASF support, dedicated artillery support, all in a defensive posture where tanks and infantry are at their best. The last fight they were in was a route when first army took Gacrux and “overwhelmed” the defenders by dropping a hell of a lot on Bronze Keshik and a single cluster.
This should’ve been a pile of dead wolves.
EDIT: I agree with you on the WW2 Allie’s comparison. It would be exactly the time to get vets cycles into instructor positions to reach new recruits.
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Maybe it is a skill issue, having similar equipment but totally lacking in training/experience.
Thus having the RAF being a paper tiger.
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Keshik was only a trinary? Usually they are 2 up to 4.
I guess it goes down to how dispersed the RAF was in garrison- he only took a battalion + X Hastati company when he faced off with the 1st Dieron Regulars BN & Warlord's command company. If all the RAF was not concentrated but instead spread to protect territory then it would have been manageable.
But the reason I asked was about some of the POV characters in Shell Games- was wondering where they might have ended up post-Republic.
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Keshik was only a trinary? Usually they are 2 up to 4.
I guess it goes down to how dispersed the RAF was in garrison- he only took a battalion + X Hastati company when he faced off with the 1st Dieron Regulars BN & Warlord's command company. If all the RAF was not concentrated but instead spread to protect territory then it would have been manageable.
But the reason I asked was about some of the POV characters in Shell Games- was wondering where they might have ended up post-Republic.
Keshiks are weird. Falcons seem to just have two elite Keshiks, each a cluster sized hammer for the crazy jobs.
Wolves seem to do a Keshik per galaxy functionally as a command unit. Golden Keshik had two formation sizes I’ve seen listed. One as 2 binaries (one a nova) and one as a trinary. This was when it was the bodyguard of Khan Vlad Ward. But those are also before 3060. Lots of time for changes. I assumed they stayed as such without having anything I saw to assume they were larger.
We do have Den Keshik from the Empire at 2 trinaries of mechs, 2 of tanks, and 1 of BA. So it’s possible Golden was cluster sized as well. But Den Keshik was less what Othar wants and more what he could turn into the elite garrison of Geinah.
And yeah, I didn’t mean to drag into details. Paladin Ergen went back to Terra badly wounded and most everyone in X Triarii was killed is about all I have for specifics.
Maybe it is a skill issue, having similar equipment but totally lacking in training/experience.
Thus having the RAF being a paper tiger.
I could agree, except RotS training was supposed to be the best in the sphere and the First and Second Armies had just sharpened their teeth against the DCMS and Wolves. This was an elite Hastati and a veteran Triarii with significant recent relevant experience. They should absolutely have their stuff together.
Add in: from an out of universe POV, making an entire army of elite and veteran troops suddenly secretly green and incompetent is a bad call. They had just gutted some of the better DCMS units. So if X Hastati and X Triarii were secretly green, then the Sword of Light has to suddenly be so much worse. There’s layers of secondary effects to suddenly just saying a unit is incompetent.
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I could agree, except RotS training was supposed to be the best in the sphere
Really? Or is that just in-universe propaganda?
and the First and Second Armies had just sharpened their teeth against the DCMS and Wolves. This was an elite Hastati and a veteran Triarii with significant recent relevant experience. They should absolutely have their stuff together.
I can imagine that they would have been mostly manned by new green recruits, thus forcing the better troops to suffer more and more losses in an effort to cover for those new guys.
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"Full of green recruits" does not an Elite formation make in the first place, that's a huge stretch in speculation.
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"Full of green recruits" does not an Elite formation make in the first place, that's a huge stretch in speculation.
A formation that "was" Elite....
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*snip*
Have to check what the Golden Keshik is in the ER/FM or in Bonfire, but for the Refusal War it was expanded to a cluster for Phelan but stripped back down to 2 trinaries to staff (lol, FMWC list is a joke) other Warden clusters.
But I did not have Shattered handy and I know you gave out those references. Like I said, I was wondering what might have happened to a Shell Game character.
Instead of re-hashing the end of the Republic- again- in this thread what about this . . .
Should the Republic of the Sphere expanded their influence into the non-aligned worlds from the old League between the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth to the Capellan border and as deep as Oriente? Were those worlds likely client states of the Republic? Would such annexations, possibly hostile, run counter to the Republic's disarmament program/PR past Jihad?
Would that have caused Sun-Tzu/Daoshen to kick off their attacks earlier?
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I'd like to pay my subscription for your news service Colt, do you except isola in the form of Fanatical blood or. Hard cold-blooded cash, still dripping warm?
TT
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Dang, forgot to throw out the date- looking at 3085-ish by the maps for a broad swath of uncolored worlds.
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A formation that "was" Elite....
An equally unsubstantiated implication that they no longer were.
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A formation that "was" Elite....
“The sourcebook lied” isn’t really a great defense. Not actually a defense at all. “The sourcebook was in error” is something we use for an isolated event happens that creates a mismatch between novel and sourcebook. Using “the sourcebook is wrong in summarizing an entire faction” as the fundamental explanation to tell a story makes a sourcebook a pointless thing.
If something changes, there should have been an event. X Hastati are listed as elite. They just got a ton of combat experience against a variety of foes and decisively won each time. Give me a compelling anything that explains why they should be anything but elite.
Otherwise, we enter “just make shit up so RAF loses, damn the logic and details” territory, which is a major issue of so many parts of SF and HotW
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One thing worth noting is that a LOOOT if not not of the ROTS units raised from behind the wall had minimal if any real combat experiance, in fact "Shell Games" notes that the VAST majority of the 10th Hastati had, prior to Robinson, never seen combat outside of the simulator. so with that in mind the elite, vetern etc ratings for the RAF where really a best guess,
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The Forces behind the Wall wouldn't have had any real chance to gain experience really. It would have been a army of Green troops. It's one of the reasons I see creating a unit like The Old Guard as a waste. It took experienced troops away from formations that desperately needed them.
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One thing worth noting is that a LOOOT if not not of the ROTS units raised from behind the wall had minimal if any real combat experiance, in fact "Shell Games" notes that the VAST majority of the 10th Hastati had, prior to Robinson, never seen combat outside of the simulator. so with that in mind the elite, vetern etc ratings for the RAF where really a best guess,
This fails to explain why they were able to go toe to toe with other powers' skilled units and not just win but win decisively. The action that started this conversation wasn't their first combat outside the wall.
It also still fundamentally relies on "the sourcebook was wrong" as an explanation when this should be the very last thing that we should be considering as an argument.
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One thing worth noting is that a LOOOT if not not of the ROTS units raised from behind the wall had minimal if any real combat experiance, in fact "Shell Games" notes that the VAST majority of the 10th Hastati had, prior to Robinson, never seen combat outside of the simulator. so with that in mind the elite, vetern etc ratings for the RAF where really a best guess,
Yeah, I am going to side with 'they are elite' though it means vet for the Clan. RAF was always shown- MWDA & on- to have excellent training aides Yes, while they might have been considered shaky going into the fight on Dieron the book spends a couple paragraphs analyzing their response to enemy action for the lead company. They avoided green mistakes like playing chase, or falling for other diversions from their mission.
IF the 2nd Dieron Regulars had some sort of big shock to land against the inexperienced X Hastati they might have broken . . . but no shock was landed, they were blooded, and had a string of victories as a army on the move. Handful of big battles, victories in all, and by the time they faced the Wolves they would have been quite competent & confident.
BUT what you said is why they SHOULD have cycled people out to stiffen other formations- to share the experience around. Which might be put at the feet of people promoted into positions by peace.
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This fails to explain why they were able to go toe to toe with other powers' skilled units and not just win but win decisively. The action that started this conversation wasn't their first combat outside the wall.
It also still fundamentally relies on "the sourcebook was wrong" as an explanation when this should be the very last thing that we should be considering as an argument.
Not wrong, but more like unspoken problems as sourcebooks. They can be listed as Elite in 3145 but any critical losses during those following wins, any bad transfers, and concentrations of recruits afterwards could really create vulnerabilities in such formations.
Now could the sourcebooks use more how units win instead of just what happened? Definitely.
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Sourcebook descriptions of battles will frequently (though not always) describe the disposition of units afterward. The such and such Fusiliers were eventually forced off-world but withdrew in good order and preserved most of their strength. The whocares Rangers were shattered as a fighting force and were forced to return to their staging areas behind the lines. Somebody's Buttkickers took the planet but suffered significant losses in the fighting.
We don't have that here. We have a RAF unit(s) that are winning multiple battles against seasoned opponents and even numbers. Then the Wolves show up with a third the numbers and are just so much better that the fight is a catastrophic loss.
It's incongruous at best.
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If we take the RAF as a whole you have to remember that Stone ordered all Planetary Guards to be absorbed into the line regiments. Which makes for at least impressive numbers but those are "weekend soldiers". Even increased training doesn't change that. Kind of like the first year of the Us Army fighting against the German army in Africa. getting suckered into ambushes or overwhlemed by sudden strikes. But the difference is that the RAf couldn't suck up the losses in manpower (at least as described in the books). and perhaps keeping veterans out of instruction positions or not giving them command positions wasted the gained experience. The raids, as useful as they were, didn't increase competence in large battle formations but rather small unit actions. And as said in another threat the RAF should have made use of the potential of the wall to send out larger units to a) smash enemy formations and b) use that as a boost to gain experience
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So Sharpnal 14 has a story about a RAF unit on Talitha in the FWL and how they respond to Stone's message declaring the ROTS dead, worth reading as I think it'll give us some insight into what happens
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If we take the RAF as a whole you have to remember that Stone ordered all Planetary Guards to be absorbed into the line regiments. Which makes for at least impressive numbers but those are "weekend soldiers". Even increased training doesn't change that. Kind of like the first year of the Us Army fighting against the German army in Africa. getting suckered into ambushes or overwhlemed by sudden strikes. But the difference is that the RAf couldn't suck up the losses in manpower (at least as described in the books). and perhaps keeping veterans out of instruction positions or not giving them command positions wasted the gained experience. The raids, as useful as they were, didn't increase competence in large battle formations but rather small unit actions. And as said in another threat the RAF should have made use of the potential of the wall to send out larger units to a) smash enemy formations and b) use that as a boost to gain experience
So you’re sticking with “the sourcebook lied completely about the RAF skill and quality.”
The units in question, rated Elite, had just fought on multiple worlds as part of a larger formation including pitched battles with:
2nd Dieron
8th Sword of Light
Ryuken-ni
Ryuken-nana
Then they were reinforced. Then fought as part of a larger group against:
Bronze Keshik
271st Wolf Guard Assault Cluster
In every case, not a raid, but conquest. How much more experience are you asking for for a unit to be combat ready and highly rated? Because by your bar that you set here, there’s not unit in the sphere that deserves a veteran ranking.
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While those explicit regiments may not be the very best the DCMS had to offer, the Ryuken and Sword of Light brigades tend to be made of the best of the best the DCMS can muster. They also tend to have the best quality of equipment. If you can hold your own against them, you should do fine against the best the Clans can muster.
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While those explicit regiments may not be the very best the DCMS had to offer, the Ryuken and Sword of Light brigades tend to be made of the best of the best the DCMS can muster. They also tend to have the best quality of equipment. If you can hold your own against them, you should do fine against the best the Clans can muster.
It was more likely that their win against the DCMS was a pyrrhic victory.
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[Citation needed]
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So Sharpnal 14 has a story about a RAF unit on Talitha in the FWL and how they respond to Stone's message declaring the ROTS dead, worth reading as I think it'll give us some insight into what happens
That went about how I expected. Without a clear chain of command, rally point, or mission, discipline was going to breakdown as individuals made arrangement for themselves in the new order. Like a pre-modern army getting scattered after a rout.
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So you’re sticking with “the sourcebook lied completely about the RAF skill and quality.”
Why not. Skill and quality are dependent on how a force is employed. Even the most elite and reliable troops will fail to perform if used incorrectly.
Eventually we are going to get a canon explanation for why the 3:1 odds didn't work out.
I am expecting it to be. Stone wanted everyone fighting from the Redoubts, giving the Wolves and the Falcons free run of the country and local superiority in any given fight. Local defenders eventually failed their morale checks, break, flee into the woods to stash their gear and look for a way to survive post conflict. Any Mechwarrior worth their salt, had to have known, that the wall getting pulled, broken, and two clans on planet was end. If not against the Clans, then against CapCon waiting less than a jump away.
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Eventually we are going to get a canon explanation for why the 3:1 odds didn't work out.
If it wasn't in the novel and it wasn't in the accompanying sourcebook, then I think it's safe to say that TPTB are content to call it a wrap and have already moved on.
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Why not. Skill and quality are dependent on how a force is employed. Even the most elite and reliable troops will fair to perform if used incorrectly.
Eventually we are going to get a canon explanation for why the 3:1 odds didn't work out.
I am expecting it to be. Stone wanted everyone fighting from the Redoubts, giving the Wolves and the Falcons free run of the country and local superiority in any given fight. Local defenders eventually failed their morale checks, break, flee into the woods to stash their gear and look for a way to survive post conflict. Any Mechwarrior worth their salt, had to have known, that the wall getting pulled, broken, and two clans on planet was end. If not against the Clans, then against CapCon waiting less than a jump away.
To be frank, “why not” is exactly the irritating sort of arguments against the RotS I hear. I’ve heard multiple people whose arguments amount to “ignored printed canon so the Republic can die.” That’s a spectacularly shitty approach for those who enjoyed a faction. It’s also an argument applied only to RotS.
Flip the script. Wolves hold Terra and by all logic they should have damn good troops and their pick of equipment. They just don’t have very many. Suddenly TPTB decide Alaric’s wolves must die, so we see two warrior Houses (say two battalions each) dropping on top of galaxies and forcing them into retreat, or slaughtering them wholesale, or leaving them to die in the desert, or absorbing them into the CCAF where they inexplicably join up and embrace it. Then in the novelization, Wolves get cornered and wiped out in a book that compares them to Nazis. When we ask how that works, others tell us “well actually the wolves just sucked the entire time.”
How would that get taken? I would hope it was taken justifiably badly. Wolf fans don’t deserve that. And that’s the level of bad writing it took to end the republic.
I don’t see TPTB coming back to this. They are aware the fall of the Republic was not handled well, but what are they going to do? Retcons? Write fifty short stories excusing away impossible win after impossible win? Easier and less messy to just focus on the new era and pretend that shitshow didn’t happen.
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Or...
Correct future writings with the old ComStar monkier: false technical readings.
Like how WolfNet showed ComStar's writings to be untrue and falsified.
The spoils of war to the winner, even if the truth isn't.
Who writes history can say what they damn well please... Even when said history can be wrong.
We're told the Widowmakers used a nuclear device, but it could have been an overloaded reactor.*
Who knows...
TT
* Tharkad reactors blew from overstressed energies exploding during the battle...
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To be frank, “why not” is exactly the irritating sort of arguments against the RotS I hear. I’ve heard multiple people whose arguments amount to “ignored printed canon so the Republic can die.” That’s a spectacularly shitty approach for those who enjoyed a faction. It’s also an argument applied only to RotS.
it does not just happen to the Republic. The Invasion Wolves had 20+ clusters fall into a black hole during the Refusal War.
BUT . . . like I said, if they were in garrison and had NOT consolidated then the Wolves could have had local superiority. If the Trial between saKhan & Paladin happened at the spaceport with the dropships sitting idle then many of the Republic DS could have been taken which would have stranded the X Triarii along with much of the armor & infantry out at garrison posts . . . to be rolled up at the Wolves' convenience. The reason I say the Triarii could have been spread out defending locations is the only time we see Ergen's deployment orders is where the Hastati & Fides are used as his offensive unit with the Triarii in a defensive stance- protecting the DZ, escorting Ergen to the 1st Dieron lift off.
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To be frank, “why not” is exactly the irritating sort of arguments against the RotS I hear. I’ve heard multiple people whose arguments amount to “ignored printed canon so the Republic can die.” That’s a spectacularly shitty approach for those who enjoyed a faction. It’s also an argument applied only to RotS.
The Republic died in the same canon. Following your logic, the printed canon is either incomplete or inaccurate. That makes it open season to speculate exactly what went wrong, or what's changed over the course of the conflict to allow this end result. Getting stuck in the paradox of the Republic fell in canon, but the canon also says the republic was too strong to have fallen, so the Republic falling in canon was wrong, is equality... to use your word... "irritating." Especially when there are a myriad of ways out of this Gordian knot that have precedent in history and fiction.
That’s a spectacularly shitty approach for those who enjoyed a faction. It’s also an argument applied only to RotS.
Flip the script. Wolves hold Terra and by all logic they should have damn good troops and their pick of equipment. They just don’t have very many. Suddenly TPTB decide Alaric’s wolves must die, so we see two warrior Houses (say two battalions each) dropping on top of galaxies and forcing them into retreat, or slaughtering them wholesale, or leaving them to die in the desert, or absorbing them into the CCAF where they inexplicably join up and embrace it. Then in the novelization, Wolves get cornered and wiped out in a book that compares them to Nazis. When we ask how that works, others tell us “well actually the wolves just sucked the entire time.”
How would that get taken? I would hope it was taken justifiably badly. Wolf fans don’t deserve that. And that’s the level of bad writing it took to end the republic.
After 30+ pages on the Republic, I definitely understand that you are unhappy about how the Republic got done dirty. And I honestly do sympathize for the impact of it's loss.
I don’t see TPTB coming back to this. They are aware the fall of the Republic was not handled well, but what are they going to do? Retcons? Write fifty short stories excusing away impossible win after impossible win? Easier and less messy to just focus on the new era and pretend that shitshow didn’t happen.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a Shrapnel story about it once we have more fully moved past this moment in time. Perhaps a throw away line or too waving at the underlying reason.
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I'm also going to note the ROTS was hardly the only faction done dirty throughout battletech's history, 3057 alone had multiple instances of "****** it, it's happening"
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Not trying to take away from the other factions who've gotten Plottedtm but most other big factions that aren't the Seasonal Villains either have rubberband mechanics or only have comic book deaths (FWL).
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We really needed a Sourcebook dedicated to Terra's fall. A true breakdown of units and battles. Quite a few parts of the war were just glossed over. Heck, some of the battles barely got more than a line or two to even mention they happened. Mars? A line or two. Near as I can tell the Moon wasn't mentioned at all. No mention of the many Castle Brian's on Terra or the SDS System that probably is still there if vastly degraded over the century's. Maybe a PDF Supplement for the future?
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No mention of the many Castle Brian's on Terra or the SDS System that probably is still there if vastly degraded over the century's. Maybe a PDF Supplement for the future?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/List_of_Known_Castles_Brian (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/List_of_Known_Castles_Brian)
TT
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the castle Brian's where mentioned in Ilclan, something about Stone not using them so the clans didn't run amok killing cities in frustration or soemthing :rolleyes:
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Portions of some were used as parts of the Redoubts but there is another factor that makes sense why Stone didn't use them.
The invaders really should have detailed maps, notes, and all sorts of other information that makes them of limited value. Something about how their ancestors either manned them or had to dig Amaris' forces out of them.
And given what Malvina did to Geneva, Stone's primary concern may not have been completely wrong.
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I wouldn't be surprised to see a Shrapnel story about it once we have more fully moved past this moment in time. Perhaps a throw away line or too waving at the underlying reason.
I don’t see canon as reconcilable. I’d rather just move on. Every time we dig into any details, HotW and the entire Republic portion of SF just break down. You have two options if you want to try:
1) Rewrite the entire RotS as too stupid to live, and then make every faction they’d been beating worse. The tertiary effects get embarrassing and tarnish the universe. It’s also just a flat “****** you” to those who liked RotS.
2) Write the wolves as three to ten times the warriors of any other faction across dozens of stories (which is basically the same problem as 1). Which weakens the universe because now you’re - as the writers - emphasizing over and over that clan wolf is absolutely the overpowered anime protagonist of the setting. We saw what this looks like in HotW.
At this point, I don’t see a good way out. The best is probably to just move on and stop digging at the wound.
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the castle Brian's where mentioned in Ilclan, something about Stone not using them so the clans didn't run amok killing cities in frustration or soemthing :rolleyes:
Canon is that He was worried clans would resort to nuclear weapons and it would harm Terra and civilians.
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the castle Brian's where mentioned in Ilclan, something about Stone not using them so the clans didn't run amok killing cities in frustration or soemthing :rolleyes:
Funny thing is in Japan the Castle Brian was used and it worked like a charm annihilating an entire Falcon Galaxy. Though that might have also be due to the fact that Japan is an islaand and that the entire population decided to make an example of the Falcons in any way they can
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Funny thing is in Japan the Castle Brian was used and it worked like a charm annihilating an entire Falcon Galaxy. Though that might have also be due to the fact that Japan is an islaand and that the entire population decided to make an example of the Falcons in any way they can
There is no might about it; ilClan directly states that while the two partially-staffed Castles Brian and their liberal mining of Honshu's countryside definitely kept Tau's progress down to a crawl, it was the resistance of the Japanese civilians that was the most important factor in the defense there.
I'm a little surprised that the Falcons didn't give Japan a taste of the Mongol Doctrine (and even non-Mongol Falcons aren't going to be keen on civilians taking up arms against warriors, most especially during THE most important battle they'll ever fight in their lives), but I suppose the real-world optics would be bad.
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I'm a little surprised that the Falcons didn't give Japan a taste of the Mongol Doctrine (and even non-Mongol Falcons aren't going to be keen on civilians taking up arms against warriors, most especially during THE most important battle they'll ever fight in their lives), but I suppose the real-world optics would be bad.
Or it might open the Pandora's Box the Republic had in it's hands. Then again Terra is sacred to the Clans so I suspect that this was what kept Malvina at bay. Stripping the Galaxy's history was probably the best thing she could do.
And again why wasn't that repeated elsewhere? We know from Kerensky's liberation and later the liberation by the coalition that streetfighting on Terra can be one of the messiest fighting you encounter. And if Stone had whipped the citizens into a frenzy this would have turned the mega cities into swamps for the Wolves and Falcons. Though most likely of course is that Stone wanted to protect the civilians as best he can
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Or it might open the Pandora's Box the Republic had in it's hands. Then again Terra is sacred to the Clans so I suspect that this was what kept Malvina at bay. Stripping the Galaxy's history was probably the best thing she could do.
The only thing that kept Malvina at bay was the Republic and Wolf fleets, because she was quite happy to orbitally bombard Geneva until they stopped her.
And again why wasn't that repeated elsewhere? We know from Kerensky's liberation and later the liberation by the coalition that streetfighting on Terra can be one of the messiest fighting you encounter. And if Stone had whipped the citizens into a frenzy this would have turned the mega cities into swamps for the Wolves and Falcons. Though most likely of course is that Stone wanted to protect the civilians as best he can
This was exactly my question too. Personally, I think BLP was going for a "look how awesome Japan is!" moment and it came off a little contrived and cringe, but that's the least of HotW's sins IMO.
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I'm a little surprised that the Falcons didn't give Japan a taste of the Mongol Doctrine (and even non-Mongol Falcons aren't going to be keen on civilians taking up arms against warriors, most especially during THE most important battle they'll ever fight in their lives), but I suppose the real-world optics would be bad.
With nothing stated we can assume that the Falcons did go Mongol in Japan, but the rest of the Falcons are busy and ammo is limited.
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With nothing stated we can assume that the Falcons did go Mongol in Japan, but the rest of the Falcons are busy and ammo is limited.
You know, you're absolutely right about this; I'm reading up on it and it even says that Tau Galaxy specifically was a new Galaxy intent on proving to Malvina that they embraced her Mongol Doctrine by performing shock-and-awe combat drops instead of establishing defensible landing zones. It just didn't happen to work for 'em.
And this was their first deployment, too. Damn. I guess I can't really blame Malvina for expunging them from the Remembrance.
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You know, you're absolutely right about this; I'm reading up on it and it even says that Tau Galaxy specifically was a new Galaxy intent on proving to Malvina that they embraced her Mongol Doctrine by performing shock-and-awe combat drops instead of establishing defensible landing zones. It just didn't happen to work for 'em.
And this was their first deployment, too. Damn. I guess I can't really blame Malvina for expunging them from the Remembrance.
As most people say ‘What Tau Galaxy? Never heard of them…’
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The only thing that kept Malvina at bay was the Republic and Wolf fleets, because she was quite happy to orbitally bombard Geneva until they stopped her.
That begs the question why the Republic did not supply their fleet with some nuclear warheads to clear the sky of Falcons. Instead they decided to play the Fedsuns tactic with clearing Warships (I call it the Neue Ziel tactic (Gundam reference))
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That begs the question why the Republic did not supply their fleet with some nuclear warheads to clear the sky of Falcons. Instead they decided to play the Fedsuns tactic with clearing Warships (I call it the Neue Ziel tactic (Gundam reference))
The simplest answer being that it was unthinkable among the people involved to do anything other than what they did.
The REAL answer is because the piece was written by Blaine Pardoe, and he was following orders on what 'tactics' were permitted to get the outcome desired.
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/List_of_Known_Castles_Brian (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/List_of_Known_Castles_Brian)
TT
I get a kick out of North America. We got to protect the western side of the Continent. Eastern side? Who cares!
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I get a kick out of North America. We got to protect the western side of the Continent. Eastern side? Who cares!
Not sure what you mean; according to this list, both the east and west side of the continent have a Castle Brian (and before ODYSSEUS, the east side had two).
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I get a kick out of North America. We got to protect the western side of the Continent. Eastern side? Who cares!
not sure where you get that, we have 5 Known Castle Brian's there where in
Hilton Head (South Carolina): Eastren Seaboard
Gunnison Colorado (pretty much the middle of the USA)
Tacoma Washington (Pacific North West)
Port Alfred Quebec (Eastren North America)
Devil's Tower not sure on where this was exactly, but central USA seems about right.
and remember these are almost certainly just the KNOWN examples.
So from this the east coast has more examples then west coast.
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not sure where you get that, we have 5 Known Castle Brian's there where in
Hilton Head (South Carolina): Eastren Seaboard
Gunnison Colorado (pretty much the middle of the USA)
Tacoma Washington (Pacific North West)
Port Alfred Quebec (Eastren North America)
Devil's Tower not sure on where this was exactly, but central USA seems about right.
and remember these are almost certainly just the KNOWN examples.
So from this the east coast has more examples then west coast.
Honestly the Quebec one I really thought was far more central in Canada. My bad there. Hilton Head I looked and I swear my mind turned it into Comstar HQ. Bad place for a underground fortress anyway. It's a literal island off the coast more noted for golf courses!
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The selection of Castle Brian locations is pretty strange.
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not sure where you get that, we have 5 Known Castle Brian's there where in
Hilton Head (South Carolina): Eastren Seaboard
Gunnison Colorado (pretty much the middle of the USA)
Tacoma Washington (Pacific North West)
Port Alfred Quebec (Eastren North America)
Devil's Tower not sure on where this was exactly, but central USA seems about right.
and remember these are almost certainly just the KNOWN examples.
So from this the east coast has more examples then west coast.
Devil's Tower is in Wyoming, so that's west/southwest US.
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The selection of Castle Brian locations is pretty strange.
I mean seriously, Appalachian mountains are right there. Blue mountains in PA as well. They could even have gone with a underwater base off the coast as well.
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Devil's Tower is in Wyoming, so that's west/southwest US.
Uhm, 'West"? sure, "Southwest"???
(https://www.conceptdraw.com/How-To-Guide/picture/Continent-Maps-Map-of-USA-with-State-Names.png)
Please note the big, square shape labeled "Wyoming".
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Eh, I always think of Wyoming as being further south than it is.
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I'd be curious as to what the follow-up to Stone's surrender was in Japan.
Did someone from Clan Wolf or Clan Jade Falcon fly to Japan to accept this surrender in person? If so, did it happen before, during, or after the IlClan Trial?
Indeed, what might happen if the JSDFthe armed forces in Japan refused to surrender - or, at least, refused to surrender to the Jade Falcons?
I might wonder if the focus on the IlClan Trial was such that neither Clan turned its focus over to Japan until after the Trial itself was decided - in which case Alaric would be able to discuss the future disposition of the JSDFthe armed forces in Japan in a more settled manner.
Actually, since the JSDFthe armed forces in Japan are barred from deploying beyond the home islands, would Alaric bother trying to wind them down either way?
Perhaps if the Star League Regular Army is started up sooner rather than later, the JSDFthe armed forces in Japan could be grandfathered into that force, with their current deployment zone left in place - yet with the option of allowing individual soldiers to transfer to "new" regiments capable of deploying elsewhere.
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:blank: :blank: :blank:
Redacted response, something to do with lawsuits.
(Self- :police:)
TT
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If Japan did not surrender, they would not be the first entity smaller than a planet to subsist in Battletech. The Free Worlds League even had some continent-sized memberstates.
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I hope the Battle for Japan is fleshed out. It would be epic tale if told right.
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Honestly I think Japan would be the place RoTS troops that didn't want to surrender would have headed for. Plus it would have a port for dropships for those troops to try to escape Terra while the Wolves and Jade Falcons fought and after when the Wolves were rebuilding. It would serve as a pressure release for former enemies to escape Terra.
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Japanese soldiers there showed Kuritas, how being a Samurai is done! :bruce6sg: :bruce6sg:
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Japanese soldiers there showed Kuritas, how being a Samurai is done! :bruce6sg: :bruce6sg:
Well, maybe...
I mean, ISF is everywhere...
TT
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Honestly I think Japan would be the place RoTS troops that didn't want to surrender would have headed for. Plus it would have a port for dropships for those troops to try to escape Terra while the Wolves and Jade Falcons fought and after when the Wolves were rebuilding. It would serve as a pressure release for former enemies to escape Terra.
That's a really good point. As of the end of IlClan Clan Wolf hadn't made a move for Japan, technically it's still free of Clan forces. Maybe some Republic regiments can escape off world for more friendly waters.
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The question is if they can make it through to space and then find a Jumpship to escape with. Of course there is always the option to hijack one. BUT there is also the Wall to consider. And I doubt that one island can hold out for over a year. I mean ripping one galaxy apart is one thing but the Wolves left over touman is bigger then that
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Japan is not small. It is also not one island. I would bet if TPTB wanted to, they could have a siege of the Japanese archipelago that could last several decades if they wanted to.
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The place had two partially manned Castle Brians, along with entirely large force of skilled retirees and determined citizens.
It's wicked fortunate that orbital assets weren't called in to help the Tau, a lot war crimes would been committed.
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Was the assault on Japan before or after the death ride of the RAf navy? If after then it makes sense as the Falcons had only one operational Warship left and the Wolves had put their fleet between the Falcons and Terra.
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As noted the lack of jumpships would be a issue and the RoTS was really lacking in Jumpship numbers at this point. But I doubt the Wolves or Falcons spent any real time trying to board and take jumpships during the fighting on planet. So probably the jumpships used to aid the FedSuns a few years earlier would still be available.
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Now with the Ghosts of Obeedah, it look like the WoB was well aware of how to cause blackout, but loathed to actually pull the trigger on one. Which, in turn, casts double on Stone's flippant remark to Alaric that the HPG network was done in by a WoB Sleeper cell. It also recommits to the plot-hook, that there were active Raiders destroying HPGs that the attack through the "miasma of hyperspace" could not. While it still could be neo-blakests, they feels a but under powered to pull off the raiding half of the blackout plan.
I remember a few years back Ray had mentioned that we would find out who caused the Blackout, but maybe not the why. I had felt that CGL delivered on that with that scene between Alaric and Stone in the HotW. Though now with Ghosts, maybe that wasn't the full story of the who. It does certainly muddy the waters around who was responsible.
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And believe it or not I actually appreciate that. It means we might actually have a culprit that isn't The Republic or the Word of Blake and that actually makes me excited.
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I'm a little torn as to whether or not I'd like both to be true. It *was* sleepers, but they either acted without orders or someone else cracked their codes and sent the orders. :)
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It’s not like the WoB is a single monolithic entity either. It’s entirely possible for both answers to be the truth.
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The sheer scale of the Blackout meant whoever did it not only knew how to do it but was also well funded enough to do it and had the rescources to field never before seen and never again seen designs.
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Well, as Black Dragon demostrated, it's possible to fool a mech's sensors simply by mocking one mech up as another mech. So the "unknown designs" could have been a deliberate false flag op just to confuse people.
And after 20 years in-universe the point is probably moot anyway since nobody ever bothered to show up for Stage Two, leading the whole thing to have acquired a distinctly Underpants Gnomes vibe to it.
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Well, as Black Dragon demostrated, it's possible to fool a mech's sensors simply by mocking one mech up as another mech. So the "unknown designs" could have been a deliberate false flag op just to confuse people.
And after 20 years in-universe the point is probably moot anyway since nobody ever bothered to show up for Stage Two, leading the whole thing to have acquired a distinctly Underpants Gnomes vibe to it.
Honestly Alien Space Bats is another good explanation. :wink:
But I think if there is one group that wouldn't care about consequences it would be the Homeworld Clans.
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Well the Blakists also wanted to nuke Terra and that ended in a robotic cat fight nuking themselves aborting Operation Meggido. It could have been some Blakist cells. After all a sizeable portion of Blakists were never accounted for. But the sheer scale which included raiding parties makes that hard to fathom. Unless these plans were passed down between families of said attackers and once they recieve the code word they spring into action
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The question is if they can make it through to space and then find a Jumpship to escape with. Of course there is always the option to hijack one. BUT there is also the Wall to consider. And I doubt that one island can hold out for over a year. I mean ripping one galaxy apart is one thing but the Wolves left over touman is bigger then that
The Wall only keeps things out, not in. It bounces hyperspace distortions that are arriving, not leaving.
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I thought it worked both ways. that you need a specfifc "key" or something to leave and enter
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The Wall only keeps things out, not in. It bounces hyperspace distortions that are arriving, not leaving.
Incorrect. The Wall also keeps things in. Hence why the Republic had to turn it off to send out their raids.
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Getting jumpships moving to pick up troops still requires communications which unless the RoTS had access to working HPG's or Black Boxes puts a nix on contacting any jumpships outside the Sol System.
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Incorrect. The Wall also keeps things in. Hence why the Republic had to turn it off to send out their raids.
I thought they had to turn it off so their raids wouldn't get pasted returning?
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I thought they had to turn it off so their raids wouldn't get pasted returning?
Hell, maybe you're right. And with the generating equipment being inside the Fortress, I suppose it does make sense.
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Yeah, I thought it worked by aiming a jump drive "blast" (for lack of a better term) at an emerging jump signature. And the "key" to getting through it was making a jump from an especially short distance.
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Yeah, I thought it worked by aiming a jump drive "blast" (for lack of a better term) at an emerging jump signature.
... wow, you putting it like that actually made the Fortress "click" for me for the first time. This makes so much sense.
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Yeah, I thought it worked by aiming a jump drive "blast" (for lack of a better term) at an emerging jump signature. And the "key" to getting through it was making a jump from an especially short distance.
Maybe they couldn't aim the 'blast' at a short distance. But in the what, sixteen years since the Wall went up no one accidently made a short jump?
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Maybe they couldn't aim the 'blast' at a short distance. But in the what, sixteen years since the Wall went up no one accidently made a short jump?
The likely limit is time, as it would take time to detect, aim and fire. So if the incoming jump can arrive safely if it can be completed before the wall can respond.
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Jump into the Oort cloud of your target system, outside the 15AU detection range, then micro-jump into your target location - the emergence flare will be minimal and they won't have time to jump a ship to your location to futz you up.
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If I remember the description in ilClan it was something closer to half a light year rather than a handful of AU but that's definitely the principle that got them in.
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Microjumps would be time consuming, were taking about IF you had KF Battery, like two jumps before you waiting 1/2 weeks to do it again.
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So? Jump travel as a concept is time consuming.
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The likely limit is time, as it would take time to detect, aim and fire. So if the incoming jump can arrive safely if it can be completed before the wall can respond.
From the sarna page about The Wall (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/The_Wall), the tracking/targeting time was covered in Children of Kerensky (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Children_of_Kerensky), page 145. From that book The Wall couldn't react fast enough if you jumped in from less than half a light year away.
I don't know if this is for a Jumpship with only a single Collar or a Potemkin with 25 Collars. IIRC Jump emergence wave endurance in seconds is equal to Dropships capacity multiplied by distance, halved. A Scout from half a light-year away would have a quarter-second emergence wave, while the Potemkin would have a 6.25 second emergence wave.
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Does anyone even have a working Potemkin left by the time of the Wolf/Falcon invasion of Terra?
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Does anyone even have a working Potemkin left by the time of the Wolf/Falcon invasion of Terra?
The Hell's Horses do.
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Yay, nobody aside from Sea Foxes more than one Potemkin. The Snow Ravens and Hell's Horses have a single example each of a Potemkin.
The Wolf's reinforced Naval Star was basically consisted of 4 cruisers, Congress Frigate, the Battleship McKenna's Pride. They lost the Rogue and Cameron Class Battlecruiser Bloody Fang, while both Liberator Class Cruisers were damaged but salvageable enough get repairs from Titan.
Falcons had no Warship scale Transports either.
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No doubt due to Hazen's habit of deliberately ramming them into planets.
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The Wolves-in-Exile had one Potemkin left after the Jihad (The Full Moon). But I think FM:3145 didn't mention said Warship. Did they loose it?
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My question are the Clans producing new jumpships in the Inner Sphere at all? Sure they can use them for transporting troops but more importantly even now they still need a merchant fleet.
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My question are the Clans producing new jumpships in the Inner Sphere at all? Sure they can use them for transporting troops but more importantly even now they still need a merchant fleet.
Last information I know of was from Objectives: The Clans, which has both the Diamond Sharks and Hell's Horses rumoured to be prepping for JumpShip production at Twycross and Star's End respectively, Falcons making Invaders at Butler, the Ravens apparently looking to restore Quatre Belle to JumpShip production "in the near future", the Wolves-in-Exile rumoured to be looking at starting JumpShip production out of Arc-Royal's Lupus Majoris yard, and the Bears making Hunter-class JumpShips at Alshain.
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According to Sarna the Star's End yards were destroyed by the Word of Blake's last gasp (the bloody Tricentennial attacks). I am not sure HH1 can produce Jumpships though they can certainly maintain them.
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How many Carracks are left?
Both Warship and Transport?
TT
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According to Sarna the Star's End yards were destroyed by the Word of Blake's last gasp (the bloody Tricentennial attacks). I am not sure HH1 can produce Jumpships though they can certainly maintain them.
That's entirely different but interesting question. What happened to the HH1 shipyard? I think it was essentially mobile space station/space dock.
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That's entirely different but interesting question. What happened to the HH1 shipyard? I think it was essentially mobile space station/space dock.
Still up and running and producing Outpost Defenders circa FM3145.
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Still up and running and producing Outpost Defenders circa FM3145.
Also pulling double duty as Warship maintenance yard. I would assume that it also produces some A/F fighters for the Horses as this mobile yard has the capabilities for it though it's unclear which one it produces. Did the Wolves ever build their own yards in their old OZ? I remember reading that the Foxes made a tidy profit from maintaining Wolf and Falcon Warships over Twycross after the Jihad.
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You'd think it would produce another mobile shipyard to double capacities. Making dropships while important, seems bit underwhelming to sustain small military/galactic empire.
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You'd think it would produce another mobile shipyard to double capacities. Making dropships while important, seems bit underwhelming to sustain small military/galactic empire.
Who controls the distribution of resources, and doesn't really have to consider their logistics because learning that stuff? Bro, that's Chalcas.
"A Mobile Shipyard? What would I kill with that? hwat can that blow up? Nothing! Now go churn out some more Pocket Warships!! We need the GLORY here! Thinking ahead is for people with biological Parents!!"
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You'd think it would produce another mobile shipyard to double capacities. Making dropships while important, seems bit underwhelming to sustain small military/galactic empire.
The question would be if any Clans outside the Snow Ravens have actually the knowledge to build such things. The Ravens certainly don't need one they have their refurbished Quatre Belle yard while the Foxes have their Tyrcross yard. And then we have the merchants of the other Clans whose simple math says "Renting service from the Foxes is cheaper then investing resources". Never forget the power the merchants have over the actions of the warriors. In that regard the calculator is mightier then the PPC
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The question would be if any Clans outside the Snow Ravens have actually the knowledge to build such things. The Ravens certainly don't need one they have their refurbished Quatre Belle yard while the Foxes have their Tyrcross yard. And then we have the merchants of the other Clans whose simple math says "Renting service from the Foxes is cheaper then investing resources". Never forget the power the merchants have over the actions of the warriors. In that regard the calculator is mightier then the PPC
If I remember correctly HH-1 was constructed by the Ravens for the Horses.
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I would assume that it also produces some A/F fighters for the Horses as this mobile yard has the capabilities for it though it's unclear which one it produces.
It produces the Xerxes and the Vandal, per Objectives: The Clans (which also seems to indicate that HH-1 is now the orbital Csesztreg Industriplex Delta).
The Ravens certainly don't need one they have their refurbished Quatre Belle yard while the Foxes have their Tyrcross yard.
I’d argue that if the Ravens have indeed thrown in with this new Star League, and are going to leverage their WarShips in support of it, a mobile shipyard might be worth the investment since the Alliance is on the ass-end of the Inner Sphere. Doubly so if they decide to lease out space to the other Clans’ vessels for repairs.
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Yeah, if they have to fight the Capellans, returning to Quatre Belle for repairs would add something like months of transit time, which could cause issues.
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Yeah, if they have to fight the Capellans, returning to Quatre Belle for repairs would add something like months of transit time, which could cause issues.
What're the Cappies gonna fight them WITH (That would require a shipyard to fix, instead of a box of 'mech parts)? The Snow Raven Navy is a force that is largely purposeless beyond being an extremely expensive to operate bus service.
Teh CapCon Navy is a force that exists for the most part, in the past tense. Having to go back home for repairs isn't a major problem, because the Ravens aren't likely to sustain much, if any damage that can't be fixed in the field without a shipyard.
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Can we please not turn this thread into Iteration #4972 of "no one runs a proper navy in BattleTech"? I'd just like to head that off at the pass before it sinks yet another thread like my battleship. :laugh:
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I’d argue that if the Ravens have indeed thrown in with this new Star League, and are going to leverage their WarShips in support of it, a mobile shipyard might be worth the investment since the Alliance is on the ass-end of the Inner Sphere. Doubly so if they decide to lease out space to the other Clans’ vessels for repairs.
Fair point. Though here is an interesting idea: the Republic still had those 3 Faslane Yardships in mothballs. Those were never reactivated during the buildup behind the Fortress Walls because it would have been too expensive and resource intensive. What if Alaric offers those to the Ravens in return for Warship support? The Ravens are basically the Clan masters of shipbuilding so I would assume they would be able to get these ships running again. You don't need a mobile yard when you have a "yard" in ship form. The question would be of course if those ships weren't scuttled by the RAF in the end to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands.
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Fair point. Though here is an interesting idea: the Republic still had those 3 Faslane Yardships in mothballs. Those were never reactivated during the buildup behind the Fortress Walls because it would have been too expensive and resource intensive. What if Alaric offers those to the Ravens in return for Warship support? The Ravens are basically the Clan masters of shipbuilding so I would assume they would be able to get these ships running again. You don't need a mobile yard when you have a "yard" in ship form. The question would be of course if those ships weren't scuttled by the RAF in the end to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands.
That's assuming anyone bothers to remember them in the first place.
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Or the Republic didn't use there drives for other purposes. I mean there mothballed so they don't actually need to jump anywhere anytime soon.
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Can we please not turn this thread into Iteration #4972 of "no one runs a proper navy in BattleTech"? I'd just like to head that off at the pass before it sinks yet another thread like my battleship. :laugh:
I'm just looking at what the ilClan's allies really have to put up with, and why there are some things they don't need to invest in because they're really not useful. Here, look...Snow ravens are Wolf Allies, Wolf owns THE major shipyards in that part of space-aside from maybe Ross 248, there's not another big yard available...but they don't need them.
Which means if the Ravens get beat up (somehow) on the warship front, there's a repair site a hell of a lot closer to the Cappie front than Qatre Belle and it's run by someone who might actually think keeping their fleet units 'fleety' is a good enough idea not to demand something unreasonable.
The Ravens don't have a reason to need a mobile service yard.
at least, for the time being.
But that's assuming the Cappies actually bothered to have enough Aerospace or PWS to make things complicated...which they haven't needed to do so far, since prior to Alaric eating the Republic for lunch, the strongest active navy was the FEddies, and the Capellans basically 86'ed the Fedsuns fleet units on their border without needing warships themselves by hitting them while parked.
With commando teams.
Commando teams that are startlingly unlikely to get past Wolf guards never mind Snow Raven Marine guards, both of whom are presumably not imbeciles that leave a frikking WARSHIP in dock without a security element, and neither of which are likely to be eyeballs deep in infiltrators the way, say, the lads and ladies from New Syrtis are thanks to nearly 400 years of back-and-forth.
so the situation doesn't call for a yardship, because the Ravens aren't going to be needing one. They might need some fuel dropships and maybe resupply ships...but not a yard.
The strategic situation just doesn't call for it yet, and probably won't unless the Horsies decide to come out and play-in which case the games are likely to be a good bit of distance from the Republic, since they'd have to slog through the fractured mess of the Lyrans, ex Falcons, and anyone else who might happen to see an opportunity between Clan Hell's Horses and, say, the ex-Republic or Quatre Belle...which is a lot of belligerent, well armed nations in any of those directions.
Yardships are expeditionary gear that you take when you expect to take damage far from help, they're not something you worry about when you're a Warrior whose main interest is killing the enemy and breaking his stuff (and the Logistics are chalcas at best, something you dump on the Merchant Caste to deal with).
The major main action for the Ravens is going to be the same major action everyone else is going for, but with the nice deterrent effect of "if you send reinforcements our warship will kill them in space" to keep things 'Clan Fair'.
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Unless someone decides to Miraborg into said Warships which I can see some fanatical Capellan pilots do. Crash a heavy A/F fighter into the bridge you kill the commander (and perhaps even the overall commander). Or go the more extreme version of using Dropships as Shipbreaker. If you are fancy turn them into Fireships. Crashing into stuff has become the MO in the IS when it comes to Warship battles. Might be less effective against the Ravens but if they break their Naval star into single ships those become easier targets for ambushes. Remember how the Terran Hegemony lost their first campaign: an idiot Admiral leading the then biggest fleet ever assembled into an ambush that destroyed dozens of Warships and Transports
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Didn't the wolves deploy fireships at Terra? If the bloody WOVLES are willing to do it then the cappies certainly would be willing too
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I think this whole topic needs to leave this thread; literally none of this has anything to do with the Republic.
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So to bring it back on topic there is something that has bothered me for a while. The Capellan Crusades showed that the Confederation was very eager to get their lost territory back and that they would use any means necessary including massacring civilians and soldiers who surrendered. And while the Repulbic managed to eek out a Phyrric victory they didn't seem to take the lesson to heart. Was there ever an explanation why they didn't ramp up their military after the Crusades just to be sure it never happens again? I know they had their analyzers for the Confederation reviewing reports while also doing calculations on how much military material the Confederation builds but to me it seems as if the Republic was way too weak when Gray Monday struck. Though that might also be as some have said the missing Stone having a bigger impact as expected.
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So to bring it back on topic there is something that has bothered me for a while. The Capellan Crusades showed that the Confederation was very eager to get their lost territory back and that they would use any means necessary including massacring civilians and soldiers who surrendered. And while the Repulbic managed to eek out a Phyrric victory they didn't seem to take the lesson to heart. Was there ever an explanation why they didn't ramp up their military after the Crusades just to be sure it never happens again? I know they had their analyzers for the Confederation reviewing reports while also doing calculations on how much military material the Confederation builds but to me it seems as if the Republic was way too weak when Gray Monday struck. Though that might also be as some have said the missing Stone having a bigger impact as expected.
I'ts possible that a lot of that 'weakness' on and after Gray Monday can be linked back to byzantine internal relationships within the Republic, after all, everyone in that multisided civil war was rocking a fairly decently sized army...except for the people whose job it was to maintain law and order.
Thus, maybe they did try to build up to deal with the CapCon, but there were...problems. After all, these factions were fielding ARMIES within DAYS of Gray Monday.
Gotta get the gear from somewhere, soldiers generally don't slide into existence from nowhere...
Stone's absenteeism might have been a contributor, but there's plenty that pretty much had to be going wrong first to create the situation(s) post-gray monday, including a notable lack of...well, for want of a better term, lack of civil governance that can actually govern when they're not being directly supervised by a Paladin, and Paladins who can't administrate if Devlin isn't there to hold their hand. Perhaps someone should have looked more closely at what Stone was relying on for criteria to determine 'merit' for leadership roles.
one, maybe two separatists? hell, everyone has those. on launch of MWDA;
Swordsworn
phake Lyrans
Steel wolves
Phake Novacats
Bannson's little happy band of mercenaries and thugs...
Wannabee Draconis Combine...persons
I know I'm missing a few. that's a lot of separatist groups all having the same idea with roughly equivalent prep at the same time...and that's not normal. Not even Yugoslavia kicked off with that many sides.
and theirs was an actual Divorce.
So I think it's safe to say something was definitely NOT going right, and not going right for a sustained period, and not going right INSIDE the government's executive branch and maybe also the Judiciary (not JUST the senate, Senates are SUPPOSED to be full of chronic Backstabbing disease, that's why we let them exist-it puts your amoral power hungry douchebags in one place where they can be monitored,a nd gives them a reason to HAVE rules of engagement...for stability).
as to what? anyone's guess is as valid (or more valid than)as mine.
My own guess, is that Lear's planning was extensively flawed, and Stone's execution may have also been extensively flawed, from day one, and the errors and mistakes stacked over time to the point that the Republic was well on the way to a civil war (or several) without Gray Monday.
The HPG crash just provided too good an opportunity for the various lunatics to ignore.
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And what would you replace it with? Let's be completely honest here, there is no future for the Republic-it was rendered extensively past-tense, to be blunt, there is no recovery, no rebuilding, no resurrection, no resistance, no leaders in the wings or hidden hopes, no future.
For chrissakes, they resurrected the Smoke Jaguars to demonstrate that nothing done to the Clans by a non-clan is lasting or permanent. (The inverse is decidedly not the case however.) are we supposed to be fanbois for Alaric (Steiner-DAvion) Ward and his magnificent blond hair? Gushing over his 'brilliance' in using the exact same tactics that took Terra three out of four times against a steadily less capable repetition of the exact same defense 'strategy'?? (HOw many times does the same strategy have to fail utterly before someone realizes it doesn't work?? "Oh, wait, we can do this with LESS stuff, Yah! that's gonna Work Great!!"-Devlin Stone demonstrating what too much cryosleep does to your rational faculties.)
there's a limit to "The Woofs are tha Bestust Evahr!!" threads, and really not much of anything to talk about regarding a future for the Republic outside of some decidedly spanky fanfics, Tassa.
So what's left? Oh, right, the enemies of the Republic that are still out there (Cappies), the alliances their conquerors made (which means, like it or not, evaluating their capabilities and specailtys within the context of the setting as presented.)
Please get off your high horse. You don’t have to like the RotS, or its story, or this thread. But you can present your view without being condescending.
You entire rant can be replaced with “it’s difficult to stay on topic when I don’t see any future for the RotS.” Which that’s a fine post.
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My own guess, is that Lear's planning was extensively flawed, and Stone's execution may have also been extensively flawed, from day one, and the errors and mistakes stacked over time to the point that the Republic was well on the way to a civil war (or several) without Gray Monday.
This is pretty much my view of things as well. The Republic was pretty much made of spandex - it looked really pretty and functional in the books with pictures and on vids, but as soon as Lear and Stone weren't there to keep things proper, real life was guaranteed to stretch and tear it in ways it couldn't deal with.
I love the Republic and the stories that can be told with it, but I'll be the first to agree that it was pretty much doomed to fall eventually. The only way I see for it to survive would have been if Stone's immediate successor had been just as powerful a force of personality AND had been willing to institute major reforms, essentially rebuilding it from the ground up using actual timbers and concrete instead of cards.
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This is pretty much my view of things as well. The Republic was pretty much made of spandex - it looked really pretty and functional in the books with pictures and on vids, but as soon as Lear and Stone weren't there to keep things proper, real life was guaranteed to stretch and tear it in ways it couldn't deal with.
I love the Republic and the stories that can be told with it, but I'll be the first to agree that it was pretty much doomed to fall eventually. The only way I see for it to survive would have been if Stone's immediate successor had been just as powerful a force of personality AND had been willing to institute major reforms, essentially rebuilding it from the ground up using actual timbers and concrete instead of cards.
Largely agreed.
I can admit I never loved the RotS but that's because from pretty early on I absolutely knew it was doomed to fail. Too many warning signs were there from day one for me. But that's not to say I actually hate it either.
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Largely agreed.
I can admit I never loved the RotS but that's because from pretty early on I absolutely knew it was doomed to fail. Too many warning signs were there from day one for me. But that's not to say I actually hate it either.
This is pretty much my view of things as well. The Republic was pretty much made of spandex - it looked really pretty and functional in the books with pictures and on vids, but as soon as Lear and Stone weren't there to keep things proper, real life was guaranteed to stretch and tear it in ways it couldn't deal with.
I love the Republic and the stories that can be told with it, but I'll be the first to agree that it was pretty much doomed to fall eventually. The only way I see for it to survive would have been if Stone's immediate successor had been just as powerful a force of personality AND had been willing to institute major reforms, essentially rebuilding it from the ground up using actual timbers and concrete instead of cards.
Insert the obligatory point made over and over that the RotS wasn’t meant to fail. It was meant to recover. They had to retcon previous canon so it could fail.
A lot of the cracks spreading and doing so quickly strikes me as the odds of the RotS maintaining all of its territory was abysmal. It was never going to happen. That said, once it was reduced to Prefecture X, the deep seated cracks are gone. They’ve lost huge tracts of the sphere they were trying to divorce from nationalism and were left with old hegemony worlds. Ones more used to accepting different houses as rulers. Once we hit that, we don’t really see the huge cracks. FM3145 even had the RotS seeming to rally even when down.
The next time we see major cracks in RotS as a functioning government was the hack job of HotW. Shattered Fortress was a functioning government, a focused military, and loyal planets. They were just losing.
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So I think it's safe to say something was definitely NOT going right, and not going right for a sustained period, and not going right INSIDE the government's executive branch and maybe also the Judiciary (not JUST the senate, Senates are SUPPOSED to be full of chronic Backstabbing disease, that's why we let them exist-it puts your amoral power hungry douchebags in one place where they can be monitored,a nd gives them a reason to HAVE rules of engagement...for stability).
as to what? anyone's guess is as valid (or more valid than)as mine.
My own guess, is that Lear's planning was extensively flawed, and Stone's execution may have also been extensively flawed, from day one, and the errors and mistakes stacked over time to the point that the Republic was well on the way to a civil war (or several) without Gray Monday.
The HPG crash just provided too good an opportunity for the various lunatics to ignore.
I think the main problem then was Lear's death. the books make Stone sound as if he lost his drive once Lear died. Or in other words: the real puppetmaster was gone and the puppet didn't know what to do. Plus Lear had the senate under control and after that it almost seems as if the senate was doing their own thing
Then we also have one thing to add: several loyal Repoublicans actually wanted the Republic to change their image: from a Rock of stability in the center of the Is to an actual conquering nation. Which runs counter to the ideals the Republic was actually founded. Of course the founding of the Republic also laid some of the roots for it's actual sundering: suddenly the people began looking for what other factions had to offer and they tended to those that where their own first.
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I think the main problem then was Lear's death. the books make Stone sound as if he lost his drive once Lear died.
With Stone being created by the WoBs to be a super general, he probably didn't quite have the interest or the knack for nation building the same way he did for coalition warfare. It would also explain what the Republic was effectively run by its military, rather than by a more dedicated civilian service
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With Stone being created by the WoBs to be a super general, he probably didn't quite have the interest or the knack for nation building the same way he did for coalition warfare. It would also explain what the Republic was effectively run by its military, rather than by a more dedicated civilian service
I would argue with your "Ultimate General" statement and as evidence, submit Devlin Stone's "Plan" for defending the Sol System as evidence he was...incompetent in military matters in any fight not rigged ahead of time by a third party.
Yes, folks, it really WAS that bad a plan, beginning with using the exact same plan that failed every other time conflict came to the Sol system, only this time, the variation was "Let's use even LESS stuff to do the thing that failed with MORE stuff, and completely forget the exact same thing that dusted the defense every other time."
this isn't rigidity, it's outright negligence. At least with the Maginot line the French invested enough that the attack they expected might've been blunted by a few days, but even a cursory look at the history of terran centric warmongering over the previous four hundred years would've told even an academy cadet that the Republic's setup to defend the Sol system wasn't just doomed to fail, but doomed to fail using the obvious-that is, the tactic that worked last time.
Because said tactic's worked two other times before out of four invasions that succeeded. (Well, three at the time, over 66% attacker success rates means you don't use that defense because it doesn't work.)
so I would say Devlin Stone was NOT an Ultimate General, not before he took a cryogenic nap, and not after. before, he was at best competent with some brilliant supporters, most of whom were dead by the time he woke up with ice on his mind.
Lear may have been responsible for the Republic's other successes in the fifty-something years prior to 3032, but again, any one individual isn't really that important to how well your administration or economy function-those things are, believe it or not, a team effort, usually on the backs of people whose names you never see in the headlines unless they get caught doing something dumb enough to end up in a criminal court for activities NOT related to doing their jobs.
That said, Military Juntas (and the Republic's government was every inch one of those when you scrape the paint off) don't have a great record of success for sustaining stability. (there's a reason the Turks kept handing government back to their civilians after their numerous coups-the Military isn't a good instrument for civil administration...at least, if you want to be prosperous and effective. for the alternate take a glance at places in the Third World where Juntas have generated civil wars after spending too long in power.)
so, here we have The Republic, circa 3130 or thereabouts, and the shine of victories against the Cappies is wearing off, the internal problems aren't getting solved or even addressed, ethnic groups are arming for civil war, and the Senate..? well... it's kinda like the SEnate of the Late Roman period-whatever isn't corrupt isn't corrupt because they can't corrupt it yet, or someone else got to it and corrupted it first.
The actual governance (such as it was) is handled by a military junta, most of which is focused on competing with one another for prominence, instead of...y'know, Administrating.
Now we have the Republic in 3132, august, say, August 30, the HPG net's been down a week,..
and already the dissidents, disaffected ethnic minorities, and factions are launching attacks with armies that could only be built because the government supervising things wasn't on the job over a period of years. Make the excuses you want to make, armies do not appear from nowhere and it takes TIME to put them together even if they're using toyota trucks with SAM and Antitank Missiles instead of MBT's and helicopter support-and these armies have MBT's and helicopter support (Well the 32nd century equivalent, anyway).
a whole lot of people in critical offices had to ALSO be absent for this to happen, had to ALSO not be doing their jobs, not just Lear, nor Stone, but a LOT of important (and not-so-important) figures in critical positions had to be doing 'something other than their job' for this to happen.
upshot being maybe the Senators who wanted to revolt had a point-the Military wasn't administrating The Military effectively, never mind the Nation...but they'd been given that exact job by default of how you GET into those top spots.
In the normal course of things, how this happens usually boils down to complacency and neglect. the problem being, the Republic wasn't old enough, or established enough, for normal complacency and ordinary neglect to get that deep and pervasive. The other way it happens in normal conditions, is rampant incompetence or tribalism within your governmental structure, people in adjacent offices NOT talking to one another because they're hoarding some critical bit to make or keep themselves indispensible to their mutual boss, and engaging in mutual games of sabotage in order to secure promotions or positions within the government's bureaus for themselves, or for friends and relatives.
y'know, "THe Office" played larger scale, but written by a Russian as a Tragedy with comedic elements.
This, I think, would explain the unevenness and even the success of places like Japan while the rest of the military was falling apart or tripping over themselves to lose to the invaders.
somehow, the island of the rising sun had all (or most of) the competent leaders and administrators on a world of ten billion people, in a star system with billions more.
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We're told several times in previous material that cyrogenic freezing can result in brain damager, some of the material freaturing stone before HOTW showed stone behaving.. oddly, not sure I'd use his post thaw performance to judge his pre-thraw status
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We're told several times in previous material that cyrogenic freezing can result in brain damager, some of the material freaturing stone before HOTW showed stone behaving.. oddly, not sure I'd use his post thaw performance to judge his pre-thraw status
But he had competent Paladins around him by the time he came back. The battle for Terra make them also sound as if they all took stupid pills.
But I love the argument "He defended Terra with less". Yeah and Terra was also attacked with less then ever before. What did the Wolves have, 5 Warships? How cute. Of course Battle stations weren't the best idea for defense. Dropship (especially Pocket warship) and fighter drones might have been a better idea. That and SDS batteries all over Terra
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One of the biggest problems that Stone had was that any plan had to incorporate them absorbing the attacking Clan, as at that point they required those assets to retake lost territory.
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One of the biggest problems that Stone had was that any plan had to incorporate them absorbing the attacking Clan, as at that point they required those assets to retake lost territory.
Retaking lost territory is putting the cart WELL before the horse. You have to win the defense before you can contemplate counterattack and Stone chose a defense plan that...well...didn't work.
arguably could never have worked.
A plan with multiple paths to defeat, and only a very narrow path to success. Aside from repeating the move that worked before, Alaric could've brought his entire force in off-axis and still won while outright bypassing those defensive stations, making them largely irrelevant, and stone had no maneuver element in the system...
because they built these space stations instead.
He could have concentrated naval forces to defend the obvious point that an enemy would HAVE to stop moving for-that is, he could've put those stations' complements on Luna, which is not going to go boom when it's hit with a ramming dropship, if he really wanted a set of fixed defenses, and supplemented with ground and smaller station based defenses and it would've been more of a fight, and maybe a fight he could actually win, with reserves from the outer system.
He didn't do that, either.
instead, he had his defenses simultaneously too spread out to concentrate, and concentrated in the wrong locations to be of any value against anything but the most elementary attack...an attack that they in turn, had no value in repelling once put into practice.
everything about STone's plan reeks of incompetence, from giving up the initiative, to giving up space superiority, to giving up air superiority to close a trap his ground forces, lacking air or space superiority, could not close, or hope to survive trying.
The shocker is that his general staff went along with this dog of a plan, suggesting that he was not, in fact, surrounded by competent military professionals.
He was surrounding himself with good heavy equipment operators and yes-men.
This speaks to the nature of the Republic itself, and to a fairly obvious failure all the way through it. The standard of 'merit' to get that Paladin position was not what we might ordinarily term merit, it was something far more subjective and politically dependent.
that is, politically reliable people who were, taken collectively and averaged out, not particularly bright, but very loyal.
possibly a collective example of The Peter Principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle)
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How many Newgrange did Kerensky take, how many survived?
Same goes for ComStar's Faslane...
Also how many Gatekeeper Stations were built, as the WoB SDS Drake's are built off them.
Hughes and Hephaestos stations.
Heck, how many others are out there not named or stat'd?
TT
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How many Newgrange did Kerensky take, how many survived?
Same goes for ComStar's Faslane...
Also how many Gatekeeper Stations were built, as the WoB SDS Drake's are built off them.
Hughes and Hephaestos stations.
Heck, how many others are out there not named or stat'd?
TT
we're going to need a new thread for that.
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we're going to need a new thread for that.
I agree...
There's what (d12 in Newgrange) and another (d8 in Faslane)?
But we're told the Drake was a modified Gatekeeper, which doesn't have any stats officially.
(Well, technically, we can extrapolate the tech backwards a bit, mostly put it into Cargo and swap out the Naval Weapons for SLDF era ones.)
How many Drake (d8-10?), Gatekeeper (unknown quantity), Hughes could be one or d4-6? (Hephaestos/HH1, possible variants).
Too many unknowns and variables spread extremely thin with one or more authors confusing. Purposely or deliberately, unclear.
TT
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...
Hughes and Hephaestos stations.
Heck, how many others are out there not named or stat'd?
TT
Scorpion Empire has one Hephaestos in 3152
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This speaks to the nature of the Republic itself, and to a fairly obvious failure all the way through it. The standard of 'merit' to get that Paladin position was not what we might ordinarily term merit, it was something far more subjective and politically dependent.
that is, politically reliable people who were, taken collectively and averaged out, not particularly bright, but very loyal.
possibly a collective example of The Peter Principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle)
The main problem was that Stone ruled for way too long if the succesion is based on an election afterwards. Stone became a shadow that overtook everything. As others stated it was a cult of personality. It also showed that Levin for all his prowess couldn't keep the Republic together after years behind the wall. Though Stone also admitted that the people would have risen against him a few years later (right before ERUPTIO launched) despite Stone managing to pull thereigns back in.
Then again, even other parties took stupid pills during the battle for Terra. The greatest dig came in Rites of Redemption when Kincaid accused his former CO of being "bad actors in an Immortal warrior holovid" questioning him where all his vaunted strategies and tactics were when they fought on behalf of the Wolves.
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That said, Military Juntas (and the Republic's government was every inch one of those when you scrape the paint off)
It’s hard to bother with the rest of the post when you get such basics like this spectacularly wrong.
We’ve been over this. There were all of three exarchs. They happened to all be military people. Exarchs came from the Paladins, Paladins from the knights, and there was no military requirement at any level. There were serious issues with the system, but that’s from it being a self selecting ruling group. The reason they were all military is more Doyleist in that this is a wargame.
arguably could never have worked.
Doomed by the meta plot to fail.
A plan with multiple paths to defeat, and only a very narrow path to success. Aside from repeating the move that worked before, Alaric could've brought his entire force in off-axis and still won while outright bypassing those defensive stations, making them largely irrelevant, and stone had no maneuver element in the system...
because they built these space stations instead.
He could have concentrated naval forces to defend the obvious point that an enemy would HAVE to stop moving for-that is, he could've put those stations' complements on Luna, which is not going to go boom when it's hit with a ramming dropship, if he really wanted a set of fixed defenses, and supplemented with ground and smaller station based defenses and it would've been more of a fight, and maybe a fight he could actually win, with reserves from the outer system.
He didn't do that, either.
instead, he had his defenses simultaneously too spread out to concentrate, and concentrated in the wrong locations to be of any value against anything but the most elementary attack...an attack that they in turn, had no value in repelling once put into practice.
everything about STone's plan reeks of incompetence, from giving up the initiative, to giving up space superiority, to giving up air superiority to close a trap his ground forces, lacking air or space superiority, could not close, or hope to survive trying.
The shocker is that his general staff went along with this dog of a plan, suggesting that he was not, in fact, surrounded by competent military professionals.
He was surrounding himself with good heavy equipment operators and yes-men.
This speaks to the nature of the Republic itself, and to a fairly obvious failure all the way through it. The standard of 'merit' to get that Paladin position was not what we might ordinarily term merit, it was something far more subjective and politically dependent.
that is, politically reliable people who were, taken collectively and averaged out, not particularly bright, but very loyal.
possibly a collective example of The Peter Principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle)
Retaking lost territory is putting the cart WELL before the horse. You have to win the defense before you can contemplate counterattack and Stone chose a defense plan that...well...didn't work.
arguably could never have worked.
A plan with multiple paths to defeat, and only a very narrow path to success. Aside from repeating the move that worked before, Alaric could've brought his entire force in off-axis and still won while outright bypassing those defensive stations, making them largely irrelevant, and stone had no maneuver element in the system...
because they built these space stations instead.
He could have concentrated naval forces to defend the obvious point that an enemy would HAVE to stop moving for-that is, he could've put those stations' complements on Luna, which is not going to go boom when it's hit with a ramming dropship, if he really wanted a set of fixed defenses, and supplemented with ground and smaller station based defenses and it would've been more of a fight, and maybe a fight he could actually win, with reserves from the outer system.
He didn't do that, either.
instead, he had his defenses simultaneously too spread out to concentrate, and concentrated in the wrong locations to be of any value against anything but the most elementary attack...an attack that they in turn, had no value in repelling once put into practice.
everything about STone's plan reeks of incompetence, from giving up the initiative, to giving up space superiority, to giving up air superiority to close a trap his ground forces, lacking air or space superiority, could not close, or hope to survive trying.
The shocker is that his general staff went along with this dog of a plan, suggesting that he was not, in fact, surrounded by competent military professionals.
He was surrounding himself with good heavy equipment operators and yes-men.
This speaks to the nature of the Republic itself, and to a fairly obvious failure all the way through it. The standard of 'merit' to get that Paladin position was not what we might ordinarily term merit, it was something far more subjective and politically dependent.
that is, politically reliable people who were, taken collectively and averaged out, not particularly bright, but very loyal.
possibly a collective example of The Peter Principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle)
I’ll try one last time, but you have listened at all before either.
- You ask why he didn’t build fixed defense at the planet in orbit? They did that. Since BLP can’t write for shit, clan wolf’s suicide attackers worked like a charm every time even though historically in both real world and fiction, they are not effective or reliable and are generally a huge waste of resources.
- You want to know why he didn’t defend with the deep space fleet closer to Terra? He did. The RAF engaged early, got damage in, and then was able to challenge the Wolves around Titan. In enough strength to ruin two more warships.
- Concentrating naval forces they way you describe would be a crystal defense, which you yourself have tried to call Terra. RAF engaged in an elastic defense from the jump point, to Titan, to Terra.
- Laying a trap is not giving up the initiative. The entire battle was the RotS’ choice. If the wolves had come alone, they’d have been wiped out and absorbed into the RAF.
- You’re complaining that Stone was trying to defend Terra with too little. A) RotS the wolves. They don’t get to just magic 30 clusters of troops out of their asses because the plot demands. B) they had enough. Like look at the actual order of battle for Terra. The wolves were going to die on Terra if numbers and logic were allowed a place in the story.
The problem wasn’t really the plan. The falcons dropped dick first into the redoubts and struggled badly initially. In Japan they just died. So the plan was, not ideal, but sound. The problem is they commissioned BLP to write it. BLP was absolutely incapable of handling this story. He had too many axes to grind and doesn’t know how to write large scale warfare. So we have impossible moments that can’t be reconciled in universe. The entire setting has to segfault for the wolves to win.
I get that you try to figure out a lore way to explain this, but I’ve watched you ignore sourcebooks, ignore novels, and ignore historical patterns in the setting to try and do it. All that does it show that the fall of the RotS isn’t something we can actually explain. It happened, it was a garbage story, and we need to see where the setting goes from here
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MODERATOR NOTICE
Folks, this is the Republic of the Sphere thread. If you want to discuss the Exodus, the Word, the Wolves, WarShips, or some other random topic, take it somewhere it belongs. Any more of the current off-topic nonsense and the mods are going to be handing out Rule 8 warnings as necessary to get the point across.
I'm going to very specifically note that the Wolves' invasion of Terra needs to go somewhere else. I'm aware it's a Republic-related topic but it deserves its own thread to avoid suffocating any other discussions in this one. Again, any more commentary on it here and Rule 8 gets applied.
On a related note, any more acrimonious personal exchanges are going to get Rules 1 and 3 broken out. This applies to that new thread as well, and any other. Knock it off already.
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MODERATOR NOTICE
Folks, this is the Republic of the Sphere thread. If you want to discuss the Exodus, the Word, the Wolves, WarShips, or some other random topic, take it somewhere it belongs. Any more of the current off-topic nonsense and the mods are going to be handing out Rule 8 warnings as necessary to get the point across.
I'm going to very specifically note that the Wolves' invasion of Terra needs to go somewhere else. I'm aware it's a Republic-related topic but it deserves its own thread to avoid suffocating any other discussions in this one. Again, any more commentary on it here and Rule 8 gets applied.
On a related note, any more acrimonious personal exchanges are going to get Rules 1 and 3 broken out. This applies to that new thread as well, and any other. Knock it off already.
That's it, I'm out.
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I wonder what is still left after the RotS left and before the Wolf Empire started.
Like, what did the Terran Hegemony leave behind that the Star League repurposed that Amaris got ahold of, that Kerensky stripped or left, that ComStar took over, that the Terran Belters kept hidden, that the Word stripped or politely hid away before the Republic came along...
There's something out there, hidden away... In plain sight even!
Be it a yardship graveyard, a hull deposit, some type of still functioning SDS...
TT
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The Prometheus database
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We do know there’s something out there. Caches of some sort. Seychelle’s Stonehearts were hitting them up. IIRC a unit went into the Empire and grabbed some stuff too.
So far I think it’s been hidden/vague what’s in those caches? Mechs seem likely, but this is also RotS hiding ComStar, RotS, WoB, and potentially Hegemony assets… story group could pull a lot of rabbits out of that hat.
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I believe the caches the Stonehearts are hitting are Republic-built ones, not older.
(Conceding that some of these RAF caches could easily have been built on top of or in the remains of older caches, of course)
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Would RAF caches mostly contain material they impounded during the whole de-militarization period?
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Would RAF caches mostly contain material they impounded during the whole de-militarization period?
Until the question a few posts ago, this was my assumption. Still is my assumption, but I’m having fun with the idea. Even at the end, the RotS had more mechs and tanks than trained pilots and crews. So they wouldn’t have needed to tap the caches.
That said… could be old Hegemony/CS/Wobbie stuff that they didn’t want to use, but couldn’t bring themselves to destroy either.
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Wait, what Republic Caches? Did i miss something? Where are those mentioned?
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Wait, what Republic Caches? Did i miss something? Where are those mentioned?
There is a short shrapnel entry about an ex-RAF merc unit known as Seychelle’s Stonehearts. They have some odd recruiting practices and are hitting up Republic caches around Terra.
Empire Alone has a bit about some unit that looks suspiciously RAF landing on a planet, grabbing stuff and fleeing IIRC
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Interesting.
Gotta say to me those sound like they are result of the MMRP. Seems unlikely all of that could or would have been recycled. Considering Stone clearly had a variety of contingency plans for keeping the Republic around...
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Okay, how does the Republic lose a decade-long war for its own existence and still have untapped caches hidden all over the place? Leave it all on the field, people!
(I know, I know. Treasure hunting is a big part of Battletech and of tabletop gaming in general. Every Terran government since the Hegemony has employed large formations whose only mission was to bury cutting edge equipment and then forget where they buried it. Maybe that's just how you prove your legitimacy.)
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We have known about the Republic's overabundance of mechs and other assets since Ghost War.
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Post-Helm Memory Core, most factions have had more issues with getting sufficient number of soldiers than lacking equipment. (In general, but whether factions have the right kind of equipment is another matter.)
With the post-Jihad reduction in military sizes, having even more excess equipment doesn't seem ludicrous. As for why that hasn't been tapped, i would guess general tech level of forces has gone up, especially with high tech factions like the Republic. The Caches probably contain pre-Jihad and Jihad era machines more than post-Jihad stuff.
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I wonder if Republic had any Caches .
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I wonder if Republic had any Caches .
...you mean like the ones we've just been talking about for the last several posts and are absolutely known to exist?
...yes.
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I thought the Republic melted a lot of surplus military material into their Freedom medals that were then sold to finance their Military redemption program. If they have any chaches would assume they are filled with ammunition and spare parts for any military campaigns that might come.
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I thought the Republic melted a lot of surplus military material into their Freedom medals that were then sold to finance their Military redemption program.
It is just a little bit of fraud, very normal in government programs.
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Considering the size of mechs, i figure melting just some (focusing on the ones that are badly damaged in fighting not worth repairing) would cover any and all "Freedom Medals" one might ever need. Seems unlikely it would be worth scrapping most actually. Scrapping stuff is work, an expense in itself. Pretty sure Stone's primary idea was to get stuff out of circulation...
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could have done even worse. "ok so we'll take these old sucession wars machines, melt down their armor and replace it with ferros fibros armor! MUHAHAHAHA!"
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could have done even worse. "ok so we'll take these old sucession wars machines, melt down their armor and replace it with ferros fibros armor! MUHAHAHAHA!"
Or just melted down shrapnel (blown off armor and ammo fragments).
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Okay, how does the Republic lose a decade-long war for its own existence and still have untapped caches hidden all over the place? Leave it all on the field, people!
The Republic was fighting splinters of itself. Its like the Mariks, but less cool because its already been done.
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The Republic was fighting splinters of itself. Its like the Mariks, but less cool because its already been done.
And also because most of the splinter forces were armed with militarized farm equipment.
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When Dark Age came out, the Republic was fighting puppet factions that wanted to takeover Republic worlds and merge with other states. Outside of the militias supporting other states, the Republic had a loyalist militia in the Highlanders, an unknown scheming entity in Banson's Raiders, and those who were not worth making minis for. The Republic itself had three mechs, Jonah Levin, Mason Dunne, and Janella Lakewood. It is true that in works as early as Ghost War, weaker groups appeared, but they were localized losers of the type that any other state has and suppresses.
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To form a corrective, with the extreme exception of the War of Andurien Secession, no one really wanted to leave the League. Civil Wars in the Free Worlds League themselves were rare, people just hyperbolize. During Janos reign, House Davion engaged in ruthless efforts to destabilize planetary governments, which tied down the League's central government, leading to an impression that it was inherently unstable, but previous source material did not back it up as being unstable as a whole. In fact, the balkanization of the Free Worlds League, like Alaric's taking of Terra, was demanded of the plot, not faithful to the source material.
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The issue was never gear, it was trained personel. It almost had a religious hatred of training up troops to operate Battlemechs or other gear for quite a significant part of the Republics lifespan.
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I’ve often wondered where all the WOB stuff went; I have a hard time believing all of their equipment/Mechs were eradicated during the Jihad. I’d think that going into the Dark Age, you’d have had a lot of salvage from WOB in each house/factions inventories or in those Republic caches.
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I’ve often wondered where all the WOB stuff went; I have a hard time believing all of their equipment/Mechs were eradicated during the Jihad. I’d think that going into the Dark Age, you’d have had a lot of salvage from WOB in each house/factions inventories or in those Republic caches.
I imagine those where often the first scrapped
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I’ve often wondered where all the WOB stuff went; I have a hard time believing all of their equipment/Mechs were eradicated during the Jihad. I’d think that going into the Dark Age, you’d have had a lot of salvage from WOB in each house/factions inventories or in those Republic caches.
Depends what we are talking about. Stuff like the Gallant, Interdictor or Trajan (well Palomi) were adopted into the RAF without much fuss. But others like the Celestial or Demon series were dismantled (or rather the wrecked remains). For one because they were symbolic with the Word and therefore had to be scrapped. Second they were often tailored to the MD (especially the battle armor) and therefore could not be handled by normal pilots.
Though don't forget what data had survived the attempts by WOB ROM to purge it survived in Republic data storages. The Uraeus and Kheper mech do resemble the earlier Celestials for a reason as Comstar raided said storage for the data.
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Different Word of Blake mechs appear to have different reputations. The Buccaneer seems to be quite fine to pilot, whereas a Blue Flame would not be; this might be because the Buccaneer was developed by Comstar and was also fielded by the Free Worlds League Militia. The MUL notes that the Toyama was fielded fairly late by the Scorpions. Bizarrely the Grand Crusader was also fielded by the FWLM but was trashed.
I admit that I am glad that the Buccaneer did not get scrapped.
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Different Word of Blake mechs appear to have different reputations. The Buccaneer seems to be quite fine to pilot, whereas a Blue Flame would not be; this might be because the Buccaneer was developed by Comstar and was also fielded by the Free Worlds League Militia. The MUL notes that the Toyama was fielded fairly late by the Scorpions. Bizarrely the Grand Crusader was also fielded by the FWLM but was trashed.
I admit that I am glad that the Buccaneer did not get scrapped.
The loss of the Grand Crusader was suprising as I figured there would have been plenty of surviving units in FWL units and former units. Although I think there extinction had more to do with real world concerns like the loss of the original sculpt.
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It gives an interesting reason for the Scorpions to have them and no one else, which I'm broadly a fan of. The 'everyone can have everything' aspect of BattleTech is great but it's nice to have things you're known for and I like this method over inventing brand new things whole cloth.
To keep this post Republic related, does the Republic Remnant outside the fortress have any native manufacturing capability, or are they effectively on a ticking clock logistically speaking?
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The loss of the Grand Crusader was suprising as I figured there would have been plenty of surviving units in FWL units and former units. Although I think there extinction had more to do with real world concerns like the loss of the original sculpt.
Sculpt is not an issue with Grand Crusader, mech is still in use, it has been renamed and upgraded to Omni
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_Crusader
Nexus is also back as Star Python and Raijin as Fujin
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It gives an interesting reason for the Scorpions to have them and no one else, which I'm broadly a fan of. The 'everyone can have everything' aspect of BattleTech is great but it's nice to have things you're known for and I like this method over inventing brand new things whole cloth.
To keep this post Republic related, does the Republic Remnant outside the fortress have any native manufacturing capability, or are they effectively on a ticking clock logistically speaking?
I don't have access to my PDFs right now, but a sarna check-up leaves Mizar (and maaaybe New Earth) unoccupied and with production capabilities. Mizar is home to Victory Conditions, producers of the Jackalope, Nightstalker and Hawk Moth II.
But again, this comes from sarna, so it may not be fully up to date.
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Pretty sure New Earth is off the table, considering that it's the setting of the Capellans-versus-Clans event this year.
Is there even an extant Republic Remnant anymore? Didn't their last two worlds get gobbled up by the Wolves in Shattered Fortress?
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Well, we don't have any information yet about who took Mizar, Syrma (both Galatean League, if it still exists) and Summer, from what I can tell. So that's about it, I think. I strongly suspect that IlKhan Eyes Only will see those three fall, as well.
But yeah, no true republican remnant left.
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Sculpt is not an issue with Grand Crusader, mech is still in use, it has been renamed and upgraded to Omni
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_Crusader
Nexus is also back as Star Python
The Star Crusader is a year young and for over a decade of real life time there was no Grand Crusader in production in the setting.
I don't have access to my PDFs right now, but a sarna check-up leaves Mizar (and maaaybe New Earth) unoccupied and with production capabilities. Mizar is home to Victory Conditions, producers of the Jackalope, Nightstalker and Hawk Moth II.
But again, this comes from sarna, so it may not be fully up to date.
I haven't been able to check Mizar, but New Earth is in Capellan hands as of the WWE scenario and that seems to me like it's a "no" on that front.
As far as those machines go, the Night Stalker seems... fine? Not a huge fan of the Lance but it's fine. Not a lot of armor but good offense. The Hawk Moth II seems genuinely good and the Jackalope is a solid light. Not exactly what I'd want to be relying on to defend anything but not nothing.
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Summer is unaligned as of June 3152. Mizar withdrew from the Galatean League in 3149 (but still had the First Galatean Defense Force protecting it).
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The question is ratzher which fomer Prefecture X planets are still "Republican" once the Capellans and Ilkhan forces clash. Northwind is probably the one that still waves the Republic flag (or perhaps more accurate the Highlanders flag) but the rest is probably now under Capellan, Combine or tenous Wolf control. I say tenous because it doesn't seem as if Alaric left any garrisons on the planets his thrust took. The ones who take Devil's Rock might be the most luckiest if the Rhodes Workshop was left intact by the Wolves.
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The question is ratzher which fomer Prefecture X planets are still "Republican" once the Capellans and Ilkhan forces clash.
I don't think that's a question at all, honestly. I don't see any worlds flying that flag anymore. The Republic is gone, the Remnant is gone... what would be the point, really? At best, any worlds not gobbled up by the surrounding powers are flying their own little independent flags.
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Chaos March 2, Electric Boogaloo?
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That's the Hinterlands, right now.
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Not quite. The Hinterlands are forming small governments that still control multiple planets. It's a bit more organized than what's going on around Terra.
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No reason it can't be both. We've already got new powers cropping up in that area (a reborn Isle of Skye, for instance) and a whole host of now-unaligned worlds "south" of the Hinterlands in the wake of the Falcons' collapse.
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I am 100% in favor of more Chaos Match/Hinterland regions popping up. They're fun.
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About the only Republic Remnants I can possibly see would be whatever forces Jonah Levin has under him and wherever they set up camp. I could see that being on Northwind but we know the Highlanders themselves are returning to there mercenary roots. Maybe somewhere in the FedSuns under the Davions protection?
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About the only Republic Remnants I can possibly see would be whatever forces Jonah Levin has under him and wherever they set up camp. I could see that being on Northwind but we know the Highlanders themselves are returning to there mercenary roots. Maybe somewhere in the FedSuns under the Davions protection?
Isn't Levin stuck on Terra? Unless he and whatever men he can persuade to follow him manage to leave Terra I would assume that he is out of the "big game".
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Isn't Levin stuck on Terra? Unless he and whatever men he can persuade to follow him manage to leave Terra I would assume that he is out of the "big game".
We don't know where he is. He goes missing from the narrative after the fall of Geneva. I think at that point the Republic could still contest the orbitals to move dropships off planet.
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Maybe Levin is holing up in Japan, plotting and trying on kimonos.
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Maybe Levin is holing up in Japan, plotting and trying on kimonos.
More like building Mechagodzilla :cool:
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More like building Mechagodzilla :cool:
Mass produced Annihilators with Clan tech Gauss Rifles and who knows whatever other changes :director:
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Semi-seriously, Levin getting smuggled out with NWH is probably the most reasonable escape path, but then I’d think the short story about NWH absorbing XII Hastati wouldn’t be a thing
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Levin will most likely show up in the Federated Suns. We already have Arianna Zou in FWL. Or maybe he'll create a mini-state in the Hinterlands.
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I would not mind an ELH situation where the RAF that survived and managed to escape go merc with no state to go back to.
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I would not mind an ELH situation where the RAF that survived and managed to escape go merc with no state to go back to.
With the level of respect the RotS got. It will be like the 21st Centauri.
But a badass merc group might be all the gas that’s left in the tank for them.
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I really like the idea of a 'St Ives Compact' situation arising with the remnants of the Republic. They sieze a slice of space on the border of the Wolf controlled space and have the backing of another state to drive the Wolves crazy.
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I feel like a Republic rump state that exists to be Wolf cannon fodder for a bordering power that they're essentially dependent on for survival is just adding insult to injury.
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I feel like a Republic rump state that exists to be Wolf cannon fodder for a bordering power that they're essentially dependent on for survival is just adding insult to injury.
yeah I'd rather see the ROTS survive through a ELH style unit. a elite mercenary command whose generally considered to be capable of swinging a conflict theatre in their employers favor
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MODERATOR NOTICE
Folks, this is the Republic of the Sphere thread. If you want to discuss the Exodus, the Word, the Wolves, WarShips, or some other random topic, take it somewhere it belongs. Any more of the current off-topic nonsense and the mods are going to be handing out Rule 8 warnings as necessary to get the point across.
I'm going to very specifically note that the Wolves' invasion of Terra needs to go somewhere else. I'm aware it's a Republic-related topic but it deserves its own thread to avoid suffocating any other discussions in this one. Again, any more commentary on it here and Rule 8 gets applied.
This was a couple pages ago but seems to need a reminder. Wolf governance of Terra or Clan governance in general is by definition not about the Republic so despite its validity as a topic it needs to not be here.
yeah I'd rather see the ROTS survive through a ELH style unit. a elite mercenary command whose generally considered to be capable of swinging a conflict theatre in their employers favor
I'm hoping mostly that it serves to explain where the handful of regiments that were broken in combat but not wholly destroyed end up. I've had enough "What about XYZ Shadow Division" for one setting to not want to see the whole concept redone with the same general area of space again.
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I would not mind an ELH situation where the RAF that survived and managed to escape go merc with no state to go back to.
That's a good outlier to. I'm currently making my own post-Dark Age Republic-based mercenary group called 'Stone's Revenge', using Triarii color scheme (red and gold). Purple added if the pilot was a Knight.
After watching a video about the Malice, I want to get one. Hopefully the Republic gets a faction force pack next year. Got a lot of Republic-unique designs.
Malice
Lament
Doloire
Jackalope
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MODERATOR NOTICE
Moderator directions are not a discussion prompt or an invitation for suggestions about how to weasel around them. If you want to discuss the ilClan's governance post-war, maybe start a thread for that instead of cluttering this one up and forcing the mods to have to issue warnings?
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Honestly the way the Republic went down in Hour of the Wolf left a little bit of sour taste in my mouth. To be fair Devlin Stone took the majority of the beating, and he is the least interesting part of the Republic for me, but it still felt like the faction as a whole was getting dragged through the mud. I hope the Republic Remnants get to live on and reap some glory in the IlClan Era, either as an elite merc unit, a minor faction, or both.
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Honestly the way the Republic went down in Hour of the Wolf left a little bit of sour taste in my mouth. To be fair Devlin Stone took the majority of the beating, and he is the least interesting part of the Republic for me, but it still felt like the faction as a whole was getting dragged through the mud. I hope the Republic Remnants get to live on and reap some glory in the IlClan Era, either as an elite merc unit, a minor faction, or both.
I think a series of Jihad/early Dark Age books focused on Stone and the establishment of the Republic would be real useful. Show exactly how he was able to do what he did, what Stone was like at his prime, why people were willing to follow and die for him.
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I think a series of Jihad/early Dark Age books focused on Stone and the establishment of the Republic would be real useful. Show exactly how he was able to do what he did, what Stone was like at his prime, why people were willing to follow and die for him.
There are a couple of obvious problems with that approach, one of them being that kept to 'legendary status' the writers have more room to move with the current time-period, and second being that a lot of the...questionable elements (unrealistic outcomes) become a lot more pronounced, leading to even MORE 'what the heck were they thinking' reactions from the audience. Arbitrary things kind of NEED that ability to weasel out of it, or instead of improving consistency, you lose it.
There are examples out already of this, but citing them would be off-topic. Leaving that era largely undefined and non-detailed lets the current era exist with fewer problems.
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While we are on the history of the Republic: did we ever get a real resolution of what happened when several corporations led by Krupp sued the Republic and several leaders due to the damages inflicted at the battle of Terra? The snippets I read were mostly "Yes they sued despite backroom deals, the economies on some Republic planets went into a nose dive" but no real hint on the outcome. Something like "The Republic paid billions of damages" or "The Krupp board wetn missing after a hasty meeting" or perhaps a "The Republic nationalized all offenders".
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While we are on the history of the Republic: did we ever get a real resolution of what happened when several corporations led by Krupp sued the Republic and several leaders due to the damages inflicted at the battle of Terra? The snippets I read were mostly "Yes they sued despite backroom deals, the economies on some Republic planets went into a nose dive" but no real hint on the outcome. Something like "The Republic paid billions of damages" or "The Krupp board wetn missing after a hasty meeting" or perhaps a "The Republic nationalized all offenders".
In the absence of canon, you can fill that in whichever way you see it for your campaign, or your fan-fiction(s).
Speculating, the outcome all depends on whether the assigned writer believes in the rule of natural consequences, which the current crop pretty much either don't have the freedom to do, or don't have the inclination to do.
but if you DID apply RoNC to it, the likely outcome would be some combination of the last two: Disappearances after a hasty meeting for some, nationalization and redistribution to supporters for others.
Euphemisms like "Supervisory custody" seem likely. Stone and Lear were intent on rewriting whole cultures, it is doubtful they'd allow key economic players to remain key economic players if said economic players weren't on board and ready to get with the programme-they'd be removed instead.
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To stay on this line of thought the Republic DID order shutdowns of some military coporation lines (I think Brigadier on Oliver was one of those) so they might have threatened that. But on the other hand against Krupp it might be difficult as Krupp WAS a major supplier of Mechs and parts. Can't exactly shut that company down when you have to rebuild from three wars (Jihad, short war against part of the League and the Confederation). So it could be more of a legal battle instead. Like suing Krupp for war profiteering while Terra was in Blakist hands while they persue their legal battles against the Republic. And the ones rubbing their hands with glee are the lawyers
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To stay on this line of thought the Republic DID order shutdowns of some military coporation lines (I think Brigadier on Oliver was one of those) so they might have threatened that. But on the other hand against Krupp it might be difficult as Krupp WAS a major supplier of Mechs and parts. Can't exactly shut that company down when you have to rebuild from three wars (Jihad, short war against part of the League and the Confederation). So it could be more of a legal battle instead. Like suing Krupp for war profiteering while Terra was in Blakist hands while they persue their legal battles against the Republic. And the ones rubbing their hands with glee are the lawyers
Under the rule of law, the lawyers rub their hands in greed. Under a redistributionist driven tyranny, the executives get a midnight knock and and are never seen again, their assets get redistributed, and their lawyers bunk the ball to avoid getting their OWN midnight knock and trip into oblivion.
Remember, this is the same Republic that 'voluntarily' relocated millions to break up communities and re-form them to the Great Leader's Vision...even when the relocations weren't voluntary, but had enough public relations to convince enough people that guess what gets recorded in EVERYONE's history book?
This is also the same regime that pardoned the blakists and somehow convinced outsiders that their 'new' Comstar was neutral despite being located in a belligerent state, and got everyone including their enemies to sign up their major interstellar communications to said Comstar-which was made up largely of Blakists.
well, ex-blakists...who then reverted to type.
right down to the rituals.
OH, and started to cease to function as soon as said Great Leader was out of sight, which suggests the actual FUNCTIONING of the Republic was about as much of a Republic as the People's Democratic Republic of (insert failed communist state here).
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Remember, this is the same Republic that 'voluntarily' relocated millions to break up communities and re-form them to the Great Leader's Vision...even when the relocations weren't voluntary, but had enough public relations to convince enough people that guess what gets recorded in EVERYONE's history book?
Which I think led to the "Reclamation riots" during the early years of the Republic. Another theme that was never fully written out. I assume this were mostly those that did not volunteer to relocate. FM 3085 had stated that a significant portion of people did not want to relocate to another planet and that the Republic had to use force to enforce their vision.
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Which I think led to the "Reclamation riots" during the early years of the Republic. Another theme that was never fully written out. I assume this were mostly those that did not volunteer to relocate. FM 3085 had stated that a significant portion of people did not want to relocate to another planet and that the Republic had to use force to enforce their vision.
The problem with forced retcons is that they are often telling you that that watery tasting water you had a second ago was black coffee. They do not pass the smell test for a reason.
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While we are on the history of the Republic: did we ever get a real resolution of what happened when several corporations led by Krupp sued the Republic and several leaders due to the damages inflicted at the battle of Terra? The snippets I read were mostly "Yes they sued despite backroom deals, the economies on some Republic planets went into a nose dive" but no real hint on the outcome. Something like "The Republic paid billions of damages" or "The Krupp board wetn missing after a hasty meeting" or perhaps a "The Republic nationalized all offenders".
If you want to know the relationship between a manufacturer (Krupp) and a nation (RotS), then simply check to see what the company has developed and manufactured for that nation. It is the best starting point.
The sarna page for Krupp shows mostly WOB material with a couple of exceptions, which is very unusual as Krupp was always happy to supply whoever ruled Terra. I think that this indicates malicious compliance with the demilitarization policy, convert as many lines to civilian production and limit production rates on the rest.
The sarna page also gives a clue of how the dispute was mostly settled. Around the turn of the century Clan technicians helped repair & upgrade the Krupp factories (Era Report: 3145, p. 119).
Then in 3123 they introduced the Taranis BA for the RAF, but that suit is fully IS tech and insultingly ugly....
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Not side line anything, I keep looking at the name of the thread, I remembered that the Exarch's office is called the bullet, shaped of room poising the ending end goes to where his desk is, since he one who needs to make the calls for the Republic.
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I was flipping through paint schemes today while working and I had a interesting thought. We know the RotS was creating large numbers of units for the defense of Terra, some like the Old Guard we know about and there were probably units we never saw. Armor Regiments and Battle Armor formations and such. It also brings up the question if the units on Terra already were brought up to full strength before new units were created. Does anyone else think he also squirreled away units for his eventual planned victory and counterattack to retake Prefecture X?
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Judging by his attitude towards the Navy in the first half, I think his assumption was that the troops we saw were supposed to be enough to stop the Clans AND start the retaking process. :smilie_confused_dontknow:
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Judging by his attitude towards the Navy in the first half, I think his assumption was that the troops we saw were supposed to be enough to stop the Clans AND start the retaking process. :smilie_confused_dontknow:
Which would mean he was supremely confident or insane. Even if the Republic took few losses and brought in the Clans into his command the defenders on Terra were what, a little over a dozen to twenty Battlemech Regiments?
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Stone likely would have tried a mixed strategy with a good amount of diplomacy. For one thing, if he was seen as the one who slew Clan Wolf, he would in fact have more political capital than one in his state ought to. If he played his cards right, he could form another coalition to silence the Falcons (Bears, Lyrans and possibly a bribed League), while ultimately working to sideline the Capellans. Neither the League nor the Lyrans would be his friends, but they would both benefit from a little quiet for a while and he might be able to do something with that. Now if you want to know how he would stop the Combine, you got me.
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The Lyrans might have liked to go along with any plan to deal with the Falcons, but they lacked the capacity.
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Which would mean he was supremely confident or insane.
I mean, we already know the first to be true, and also that while not strictly insane he definitely wasn't operating with fully functional faculties.
And now I'm depressed, because I just realized that aside from Stone's tendency to address people by the names of dead compatriots, I could incorporate the guy into any RPG simply by sitting my own dad at the table and telling him to "Be yourself". :sad:
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In Shattered Fortress when Tucker confronted Stone about loosing so many planets Stone said "they are Wolf worlds" and it sounded as if he was implying "they will be ours again". So maybe it was as some suggested that Stone was intending of absorbing the Wolves and basically taking their entire territory. Plus Tucker later got another explanation from Stone that was not recorded so maybe he had another plan in hand.
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Has anyone compiled a full TO&E for the RAF for the Battle of Terra, By combing thru the fiction? Like do we have a list of raw numbers of regiments total?
On a similar note have we identified all the RAF Naval Vessels there in the fiction, their classes I mean.
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On a similar note have we identified all the RAF Naval Vessels there in the fiction, their classes I mean.
Church and I have a list floating around somewhere. You’ll have to search for it. Think it’s on page 22 or 23 of this thread.
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Church and I have a list floating around somewhere. You’ll have to search for it. Think it’s on page 22 or 23 of this thread.
Thanks: pg 22 Aug 10th
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I've painted up all the non-Faslane WarShips. I really should get around to photographing them.
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I've painted up all the non-Faslane WarShips. I really should get around to photographing them.
Yes, you SHOULD you slacker! (Kidding).
you do realize that accounting for MORE warships than Sarna has, only makes it worse, right? The more stuff you had, in a loss that bad, means the average competency has to go down to support the outcome, or the plan has to be even worse than it first appears to justify the result.
the RoTS navy looks LESS incompetent, if they were trying to fight the Clanners with a lot of dropships and fighters, than if they burned up actual warships doing some of the stupid shit they did in the story (or the results in the sourcebook after).
so I'm not sure trying to rehabilitate things to make it more 'balanced looking' is really a good idea unless you're willing to consider throwing the canon results out and rewrite something like 90% of Hour of the Wolf and the sourcebook that came after to actually make the fight NOT look thrown.
basically the losses look far more heroic if they weren't just fighting one-hand-behind-their back thanks to Stone's...'Strategy' but if they were also having to do it while coping with a massive shortage of critical war materiel and a grossly crippled and underdeveloped naval arm, possibly one that's been neglected for decades. THEN, the actions don't look NEARLY as stupid, but instead, actually have the heroic gravitas that was probably the intent initially.
I mean, the basic "Defensive strategy" still shit, but at least the pilots and crewmen aren't incompetent morons who can't fly or shoot, liing up like a company of Com Guards at Przno Bridge to be assassinated by the ER Small Laser of Dhoom.
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The part I fail to understand is the total lack of PWS's on the Republics defensive doctrine and dropship CV's. Or the planets SDS that has been around since the Star League era. Even the use of nukes in space which is a valid tactic wasn't used. They replaced all that with a few old and new construction warships and orbital stations. And I'm not just blaming Stone on this. Any defensive doctrine for defending Terra should have been in the planning stages for decades. But then again we are talking about a planet that was almost taken by Anastasia Kerensky with what? A Cluster of Troops and a few mechs?
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The part I fail to understand is the total lack of PWS's on the Republics defensive doctrine and dropship CV's. Or the planets SDS that has been around since the Star League era. Even the use of nukes in space which is a valid tactic wasn't used. They replaced all that with a few old and new construction warships and orbital stations. And I'm not just blaming Stone on this. Any defensive doctrine for defending Terra should have been in the planning stages for decades. But then again we are talking about a planet that was almost taken by Anastasia Kerensky with what? A Cluster of Troops and a few mechs?
There's the whole debate we've been around again, and again, and again. All the Republic's big wins were off-stage, against a Mooked CapCon, with what seems apparently to be the employment of Conservation of Ninjutsu in play.
Twenty years at or near center stage real-time, and the Republic still has no real development, just a few off-stage wins and a humiliating on-stage defeat.
We never actually got to see them being competent, functional, and at their strength...and that's a shame right there, because it left the RoTS with one seminal event that dominates this board, and it's an event that has been so belabored it triggers people.
The Republic's reveal to the audience, was MWDA-which is to say, after it was already a failed state. It never got to be shown and highlighted as a rising power, or as a power in its golden era-those are all off-stage events retconned in after the place came apart from the viewer's perspective.
This influences impression, right there, because it declares to those who've been here since before MWDA was a thing,t hat the Republic Faction was always going to end up being overthrown, and true to type, the devs gave it to The Wolves, with a Steiner-DAvion in charge. (talk aobut leaning hard into stereotypes and tropes right there!!)
and, true to form, there's no sustained fight left in it. Instead it gets redistributed into the merc market, because it was never supposed to be a real challenge to a real opponent, not really.
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At this point, we all know the defense of Terra was a textbook example of stupidity and/or criminal negligence, the space portion of the campaign doubly so.
But do we have to rehash all of that AGAIN? Are we seriously reduced to a bunch of Furbies in a room that can only say "HotW was badly done" over and over, ad infinitum?
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At this point, we all know the defense of Terra was a textbook example of stupidity and/or criminal negligence, the space portion of the campaign doubly so.
But do we have to rehash all of that AGAIN? Are we seriously reduced to a bunch of Furbies in a room that can only say "HotW was badly done" over and over, ad infinitum?
Sorry I don’t mean to bring up the debate: I’m just curious on what they had overall. I personally enjoy the phone book listings of factions assets lol
Like I just did a quick manual count of the ‘new unit’ sidebars in IlClan and your looking at approx 20-25 Regiments of mechs with supporting armor regiment, artillery company, battle armor battalion, and infantry regiment or two EACH (if you combine and mix/match: obviously not all units have the same organization/composition).
And that leads into someone’s previous comment on ‘that if Stone squirreled away material?’ And my conclusion there was that several unit descriptions mention lack of equipment as the only reason they weren’t larger.
But then of course I’m a fan of all things naval battles in BT, which means I’m replaying the battle in space in my head (in one of my many open browser tabs there) and trying to think of an optimal defensive strategy and I want to know what I have to work with.
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Sorry I don’t mean to bring up the debate: I’m just curious on what they had overall. I personally enjoy the phone book listings of factions assets lol
Like I just did a quick manual count of the ‘new unit’ sidebars in IlClan and your looking at approx 20-25 Regiments of mechs with supporting armor regiment, artillery company, battle armor battalion, and infantry regiment or two EACH (if you combine and mix/match: obviously not all units have the same organization/composition).
That was called out / name checked?
31 regiments of mechs
40 tank
5 of BA
55 of infantry
Unknown amounts of ground/redoubt based ASF assets
Countless fortified positions including artillery and AAA
Massive tunnel networks at every redoubt allowing them to engage in constant ambushes
A bajillion and a half mines
Two partially working castles Brian.
One Japan
And the average unit experience was veteran, which was better than either clan. Quantifiable assets (excluding fixed positions and unknown units) was about on par with quantifiable assets ComGuards had on Tukayyid
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And on the technological side let's not forget that Terra can churn out Clan tech weaponry. So many Mechs were at least hybrids or even nearly fully Clan spec Mechs.
In terms of not enough PWs and fighters I think one reason might be that the Republic never really build more academies for this specific combat arm. Remember the Venus Academy was abandoned and then they rebuild ther naval training on Skye. Then Skye fell and for a lot of years they basically had no real training center. Considering how the Republic crumbled fast and then vanished behind the walls it is somewhat explainable why they had no sizeable naval forces. But then comes the realization that the Reoublic has access to some of the deadliest PWS which also include Naval C3 and you start to think. Plus with all those Drone tech you might think they could at least build some rudimentary space SDS forces.
Anyway that battle is over. Storywise it might have been far more interesting to have the Republic emerge with a "darkside" Stone at it's helm turning the center of the IS into a new empire or something like that. Basically like how Augustus turned the Roman Republic into an Empire
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At this point, we all know the defense of Terra was a textbook example of stupidity and/or criminal negligence, the space portion of the campaign doubly so.
But do we have to rehash all of that AGAIN? Are we seriously reduced to a bunch of Furbies in a room that can only say "HotW was badly done" over and over, ad infinitum?
There's no way to answer that that isn't going to offend someone, because of all the canon events of the last 20 or so years, the fall of the Republic has kind of become the Republic's defining moment, perhaps in part, because it's on stage, while their triumphs were, for the most part, post-scripts or casual mentions only, done in the past-tense, without details, tension, or drama.
So the one, singular detail you've got, is a humiliating defeat that gets worse the more people try to make it look better.
is there a fix? I don't know. Maybe, the main problem is that this singularly humiliating defeat was laid out in a manner that makes a much more exciting story of fighting back impossible.
When the Star League fell, it was in the past-tense, but the merc units it spawned had something substantial to their stories, that ex-Republic units don't have-they had an ethos, a 'call to preserve' that isn't there, and thanks to how that fall was managed, it wouldn't be credible if it were to be added to them.
They get to have a legacy, instead, of shattering incompetence and impotence, not of faded or tattered glory, because even if you inject such glories into their writeups after the fact, the fact is what was seen 'on the stage' is what sticks.
these aren't like the 21st Centauri Lancers, or Eridani Light Horse, there's no tradition to claim, no heritage to uphold, they're just defeated soldiers from a conquered state who ran instead of dying by the job lot.
It didn't have to be this way, but this is what has been delivered.
I know what I would do, if served this shit salad. I'd make life hell for the occupation, I'd grab anyone named form the Republic side and crank them up like Michael Collins after the Easter Rising or Mao after his first major defeat in China, chewing on the Wolves every time they look anywhere, raiding and harrying and avenging in story after story, maybe hitting the Cappies too since they're easily blamed for at least part of it.
THAT is what I'd do, because then, the Mercs being added to the rolls elsewhere become Wild Geese, patriots with a cause they're delaying until they can pursue it, biding their time and getting harder and sharper.
And I'd do it from their perspective.
To show there IS a 'soul' to the most vanilla, contrived faction in Battletech that isn't named 'Clan-adjective-animal'.
but...we're not going to get that. it likely would upset too many organizational applecarts and offend too many stake-holders at the topp.
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There's no way to answer that that isn't going to offend someone
Let me give it a whirl.
Q: “ But do we have to rehash all of that AGAIN? Are we seriously reduced to a bunch of Furbies in a room that can only say "HotW was badly done" over and over, ad infinitum?”
A: “Nope, we don’t have to rehash it at all. We can choose not to repeat ourselves for the umpteenth time in the thread and simply choose to talk about something else… or not talk at all if we have nothing else to talk about.”
See how easy that was?
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Let me give it a whirl.
Q: “ But do we have to rehash all of that AGAIN? Are we seriously reduced to a bunch of Furbies in a room that can only say "HotW was badly done" over and over, ad infinitum?”
A: “Nope, we don’t have to rehash it at all. We can choose not to repeat ourselves for the umpteenth time in the thread and simply choose to talk about something else… or not talk at all if we have nothing else to talk about.”
See how easy that was?
I will now pretend to be offended in order to...aw screw it.
5 Points to you Tassa. You're 5 closer to winning the internet.
so, what do you have to offer in place of it? (I presume you have something, you were moved to return to the thread for this...) Insights into the Republic's culture? Their system of governance? major personalities? an insight into how they fought the Capellan Crusade?
operators may not be standing by, but I'd like to actually discuss things other than either HoTW or discussion on discussing HoTW, I'm just waiting for something to come up that doesn't touch on it.
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I’m not trying to “win” anything here, CS. I’m trying to get you to understand, and not for the first time, that these HotW rants are beyond repetitive at this point. But at this point, I’m going to stop trying and start reporting.
Now, you edited your comment to say that you want to discuss something unrelated to HotW… so what, exactly, is stopping you from bringing up the topics you want to discuss? I mean, be the change you claim to want to see.
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Here's something to talk about: When you put an RAF force on the table, what's your favorite Republic-built
Mech
Vehicle
Fighter
Battlesuit
And what makes you enjoy them?
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I must admit that the Malice has grown on me for having assault mech durability with a medium mech's BV.
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The Republic has a stranglehold on incredible heavy and assault battle armor, I couldn't possibly pick just one. Really just battle armor in general.
The Kopis is terrifying, the Taranis is good, the Centaur fills a niche very few others can, and the Angerona is a superb recon light suit.
In Alpha Strike my clear favorite is the Centaur. 1 damage adds up, and dropping a bunch of 2" templates to ruin a Hierofalcon's day is unmatched.
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Yeah, the Republic has some elite Battle Armour. I also really like the Doloire, AES is a cool idea I wish the Suns used more.
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I adore the Jackalope. Appearance and capability-wise, it certainly lives up to its namesake and it’s just fun to play with.
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I must admit that the Malice has grown on me for having assault mech durability with a medium mech's BV.
That Malice is a magnificent bullet sponge.
I am a huge fan of the Jackalope. And it's even better if you get to play the ATMs as damage per missile rather than clusters of 5. It's got the manouverability to easily get into the backfield, with enough fire power to cripple vees and pose a credible threat to an assaults rear armor.
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I have always wanted to try the Malice out. Shame that the other members of my group don't use vees or aeros very often at all, so barring some amazing crit-seeking opportunities I probably wouldn't get the full power out of it.
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I adore the Jackalope. Appearance and capability-wise, it certainly lives up to its namesake and it’s just fun to play with.
The Wolpertinger variant has one of my absolute favorite construction techniques. It uses an XXL to save tonnage, then five IJJs and a Partial Wing to get back to a 7 jump speed. Doing it this way instead of an XL and regular jump jets nets you half a ton gross weight and three extra heat dissipation for what is effectively a benefit of two extra tons of space. And it does it generating less heat on the jump! 8 for the regular JJs, versus 5 for the IJJs (doubled by XXL, halved by IJJs, jump MP from the wing don't cost extra heat). Exquisite.
240 XL: 6 tons
8 JJs: 4 tons
240 XXL: 3 tons
5 IJJs: 5 tons
Partial Wing: 1.5 tons
Of course the actual Wolpertinger variant also ups the ground speed to make what I'm fairly sure is the unique movement profile 10/15/7 so the comparison can't be that direct but it's still a technique I'm dying to see used again.
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I have always wanted to try the Malice out. Shame that the other members of my group don't use vees or aeros very often at all, so barring some amazing crit-seeking opportunities I probably wouldn't get the full power out of it.
Clearly you need to school them in just how nasty a vehicle/BA/conventional force can really GET in good hands. once upon a time long ago, I was in a group who thought LBX and Infernoes were a waste of time.
six or seven sessions in, and they were grabbing those by reflex to deal with what I was slinging on the table.
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Mech: Lament. Looks good, plays good.
Vehicle: Marksman MBT. No good reason. I just like it.
BA: aegis are a fun deviation from Normal BA
Runner up are the RotS Edison’s salvaged and kept from CS/WoB: Kheper and Bolla
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I like the MHI for no other reason than its resemblance to the HISS.
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Clearly you need to school them in just how nasty a vehicle/BA/conventional force can really GET in good hands. once upon a time long ago, I was in a group who thought LBX and Infernoes were a waste of time.
I do that plenty. It's almost to the point that they ask about my health if I bring an all-mech force to a game. And they will bring defenses. But they still rarely bring non-mech stuff off their own.
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I do that plenty. It's almost to the point that they ask about my health if I bring an all-mech force to a game. And they will bring defenses. But they still rarely bring non-mech stuff off their own.
that does make it more difficult.
What's your thought on the Marksman M-1 (32nd century)?
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The Marksman is my absolute favorite battle tank in the entire setting. :smilie_happy_thumbup: I fell in love with it on looks alone the day MWDA released, and absolutely everything published about it since then has only made things better. I'm even in the process of cleaning up a plastic one to turn into a Christmas ornament. It won't be the first mini I've but in our tree, but it will be the first Battletech one.
(Runners up are the Joust and the original Manticore.)
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for those who are vaguely unfamiliar (all two of you? maybe?)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/cso-images/schemes/30_jalphoenix_camoct_marksman_2.jpg)
M1 Marksman. I'm not sure about the camouflage pattern's intent, but it looks like it could be for operating on Mars, maybe?
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Gray buildings, red dirt? Urban camo, specific to cities in Oklahoma. Now why you'd actually garrison anything in Oklahoma is beyond me, but it is 1,000 years in the future. That *might* enough time to actually put something valuable in there. :cheesy:
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Gray buildings, red dirt? Urban camo, specific to cities in Oklahoma. Now why you'd actually garrison anything in Oklahoma is beyond me, but it is 1,000 years in the future. That *might* enough time to actually put something valuable in there. :cheesy:
It's Oklahoma...maybe a new, battletech inspired NTC?
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If NTC means something Training College, that would make sense. You put those where nothing interesting will get broken when the rookies lose control of their mechs.
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This is also why the SLDF I Corps and 1st Royal BattleMech Regiment prior to the Amaris Coup were headquartered in Salina, Kansas. And the ComStar 201st Division. And the Word of Blake 1st Division.
There is absolutely not a ****** thing in Salina, Kansas or anywhere within 150 miles in any direction (except Fort Riley, headquarters of the RL 1st Infantry Division, for exactly the same reasons).
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Definitely the M1 Marksman as the favorite vehicle although I wish someone had made a ClanTech variant (with ATM’s perhaps!).
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This is also why the SLDF I Corps and 1st Royal BattleMech Regiment prior to the Amaris Coup were headquartered in Salina, Kansas. And the ComStar 201st Division. And the Word of Blake 1st Division.
There is absolutely not a ****** thing in Salina, Kansas or anywhere within 150 miles in any direction (except Fort Riley, headquarters of the RL 1st Infantry Division, for exactly the same reasons).
A thousand years in the future and who knows what is important in the middle of the continent? My money is that the flat ground made a great place for a military spaceport and staging area.
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So fater flipping through Shattered Fortress again there is something that made me wonder if Operation SHOFAR maybe would have been more sucessfulk if the Falcons, Wolves and Capellans had not managed to get information about the RAF General assault to reconnect their territory. For example if the RAF had taken Castor without the 328th Cluster getting any men out (remember HPG's are dead) the Wolves would have no idea the wall had come down (well except courier jumpships and those could be destroyed / captured). So going from that line of thought if all antagonists (or maybe just one has the knowledge) had no idea the wall was actually down would the Republic had a better chance of somehow turning the tide? Basically a "keep up the illusion" way. I doubt it though it might have given the Republic precious more time to for one prepare their defenses and also perhaps coordinate more with the Federated Suns.
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A thousand years in the future and who knows what is important in the middle of the continent? My money is that the flat ground made a great place for a military spaceport and staging area.
there are a lot of places where that would be true. The major advantage of THAT region, is a notable lack of tectonic activity-the ground is extremely stable in geological terms, making it a pretty good site for structures intended to last, particularly sub-surface structures.
Now, your downside for a spaceport. Tornado Alley. Your spaceport can be shut down at any time in the summer months (or spring, or fall) by powerful cyclonic storms. The low density and sail area on a dropshp makes takeoff and landing...interesting, in the "oh god oh god we're all going to die" sense.
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So fater flipping through Shattered Fortress again there is something that made me wonder if Operation SHOFAR maybe would have been more sucessfulk if the Falcons, Wolves and Capellans had not managed to get information about the RAF General assault to reconnect their territory. For example if the RAF had taken Castor without the 328th Cluster getting any men out (remember HPG's are dead) the Wolves would have no idea the wall had come down (well except courier jumpships and those could be destroyed / captured). So going from that line of thought if all antagonists (or maybe just one has the knowledge) had no idea the wall was actually down would the Republic had a better chance of somehow turning the tide? Basically a "keep up the illusion" way. I doubt it though it might have given the Republic precious more time to for one prepare their defenses and also perhaps coordinate more with the Federated Suns.
I'll admit that is one of my peeves about the era, despite the lack of HPGs it seems information still flows like they are active anyway an awful lot.
there are a lot of places where that would be true. The major advantage of THAT region, is a notable lack of tectonic activity-the ground is extremely stable in geological terms, making it a pretty good site for structures intended to last, particularly sub-surface structures.
Now, your downside for a spaceport. Tornado Alley. Your spaceport can be shut down at any time in the summer months (or spring, or fall) by powerful cyclonic storms. The low density and sail area on a dropshp makes takeoff and landing...interesting, in the "oh god oh god we're all going to die" sense.
Which is countered by the fact Battletech does have weather control technology. Indeed a world that the name of escapes me at the moment died off because imports of the weather control technology stopped coming. So I'm pretty sure Earth is a pretty mild place weather wise.
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There's a difference between terraforming a world whose weather would make it uninhabitable, and spending the same resources just to make literal Earth a little bit more convenient. As far as I know, nothing has ever implied the use of weather control tech in Terra.
Regarding major facilities on the Plains, I just recalled, wasn't Amarillo a major area during IlClan?
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I'll admit that is one of my peeves about the era, despite the lack of HPGs it seems information still flows like they are active anyway an awful lot.
Which is countered by the fact Battletech does have weather control technology. Indeed a world that the name of escapes me at the moment died off because imports of the weather control technology stopped coming. So I'm pretty sure Earth is a pretty mild place weather wise.
Inevitably...as long as they can keep the tech going after being godhammered twice (Three times?) by brutal invasions and Word of Blake's above-ground nuclear testing.
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Regarding major facilities on the Plains, I just recalled, wasn't Amarillo a major area during IlClan?
Yep. Home to one of the RAF’s redoubts and the most centrally located RAF installation on the continent.
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There's a difference between terraforming a world whose weather would make it uninhabitable, and spending the same resources just to make literal Earth a little bit more convenient. As far as I know, nothing has ever implied the use of weather control tech in Terra.
Yes, but on the other hand the Terran Hegemony was shown to be quite willing to use terraforming simply for vanity projects and tech-flexing, so it makes sense that they'd do so on Terra as well as off.
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Why would Terra need to be terraformed? It’s already a habitable world. I think there’s some conflation happening here between “terraforming” and “ecological restoration”, which Terra did experience a lot of per JHS: Terra.
I think Weirdo called it when he says that it’s unlikely weather controlling tech isn’t being used on Terra, as JHS: Terra also points out that much of Terra’s land area is “naturally arid and even forbidding to humans”.
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If a book says that Terra uses weather control tech, I'll accept it at face value. Until then, I'm going to assume that the most any power holding Terra has done in the regard was to simply say when asked "...but why?"
Besides, I think that we all know that if the Camerons were going to put DoME resources into altering Tornado Alley, they'd want more tornadoes instead of less, as yet another crazy defensive measure. :cheesy:
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If a book says that Terra uses weather control tech, I'll accept it at face value. Until then, I'm going to assume that the most any power holding Terra has done in the regard was to simply say when asked "...but why?"
Besides, I think that we all know that if the Camerons were going to put DoME resources into altering Tornado Alley, they'd want more tornadoes instead of less, as yet another crazy defensive measure. :cheesy:
That's the fun thing about weather control, if you can stop tornadoes you can sure as hell start them.
But ultimately, yeah my point is more the technology clearly exists. Is it 100% that it is on Terra? Probably not. I'd wager only about a 10% chance by the ilClan era.
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There's the whole debate we've been around again, and again, and again. All the Republic's big wins were off-stage...
We never actually got to see them being competent, functional, and at their strength...and that's a shame right there
Operation ERUPTIO as told via shell games shows a competently led and devastatingly effective Republic operation could look like. Schmetzer did a great job with how he portrayed the Paladin without needing to use their POV.
My feeling is that the Republic suffers from the lack of a dedicated source book to tell its history.
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Wasn't Terra already "greened" when the old Alliance was in control? Or did that only come when the Hegemony took over? I think there are not a lot of information but the books often tell that the Terran goverment repaired the damages that the early industrilization caused to Terra but they never mentioned HOW. Simply planting new trees is probably not enough. I could see the Hegemony using perhaps simple weather control tech but most likely nothing heavy like the Storminhibitors on Bryant or sun shades on Venus.
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Wasn't Terra already "greened" when the old Alliance was in control? Or did that only come when the Hegemony took over? I think there are not a lot of information but the books often tell that the Terran goverment repaired the damages that the early industrilization caused to Terra but they never mentioned HOW. Simply planting new trees is probably not enough. I could see the Hegemony using perhaps simple weather control tech but most likely nothing heavy like the Storminhibitors on Bryant or sun shades on Venus.
Weather control tech will not do anything against actual pollution. The Terran government likely did things such as cleaning and reconditioning the soil.
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Besides, I think that we all know that if the Camerons were going to put DoME resources into altering Tornado Alley, they'd want more tornadoes instead of less, as yet another crazy defensive measure. :cheesy:
No way, trying to weaponize Tornado Alley sounds much more like Stefan Amaris' brand of 'genius.' There's a Shrapnel story in there somewhere, a SLDF unit that has to assault a weather control station during LIBERATION to prevent the AEAF from creating a sharknado or something. :grin:
Favorite RAF units were mentioned up-thread, and just based on looks, the Lament is dead sexy to me. Never run one though, is it any good? Triskellion also gets a nod for being different on top of being pretty damn effective (in my experience). Thrilled the Smoke Jaguars get them both in the ilClan era.
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Favorite RAF units were mentioned up-thread, and just based on looks, the Lament is dead sexy to me. Never run one though, is it any good?
The Lament suffers from using non-BMM tech. They are good fun to run, but (IMO) need extra coordination with your opponent up front to set expectations about how the non-core mechanics are going to impact the game.
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Should be noted the sole non-BMM item on the Lament is the Radical Heat Sink System, which is basically MASC to cooling. Rules for the system are in FM3145 and Interstellar Operations Alternate Eras, if someone wonders.
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Fertility issues could have been mildly mitigated by transporting fresh soil from Venus. Many natural cycles should have maintained the overall planetary soil fertility, including one where the sand from the Sahara is blown to the Amazon and the Sun Belt. In the Republic era, the Venus option would have been impossible.
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New lance packs revealed at Pax Unplugged, the 3rd/4th packs are about the IlClan/3rd Star League, and feature a crap ton of Republic designs.
So upcoming lance packs that are Star-League centric will feature the Wendigo.
Quote
2nd Star League Assault pack: Daishi Prometheus, Emperor, Argus, Helios, coolant truck
3rd Star League Striker Pack: Lament, Jackalope, Kintaro, Hammerhead II, Havoc, J-27
3rd Star League Battle Pack: Savage Wolf, Wendigo, Excalibur, Peace Keeper, Savior Vehicle
Looks like Kisho Nova Cat will get a pilot card in that 3rd/4th pack.
Sigh, they're probably be driven by Clan pilots now, but at least my Republic battalion can have 'em in plastic.
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New lance packs revealed at Pax Unplugged, the 3rd/4th packs are about the IlClan/3rd Star League, and feature a crap ton of Republic designs.
Sigh, they're probably be driven by Clan pilots now, but at least my Republic battalion can have 'em in plastic.
honestly they're basicly ROTS lances with a clan wolf 5th added in to make em stars
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New lance packs revealed at Pax Unplugged, the 3rd/4th packs are about the IlClan/3rd Star League, and feature a crap ton of Republic designs.
Sigh, they're probably be driven by Clan pilots now, but at least my Republic battalion can have 'em in plastic.
Idea is to cover as many factions with as fewer mechs they can fit
That Kintaro for example covers several Houses, several Spheroid Clans, ROTS, ilClan, Scorpions (as Naja) and Mercenaries in recent periods
If we go further back it covers pretty much everything including Rim Worlds Republic
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I've had good experiences with the Lament. Mobile, tough, and hits hard.
I keep meaning to try out the DCC variant.
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My experience with the Lament is that it kicks my butt if I face it, but it acts like butt if I try to use it.
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New lance packs revealed at Pax Unplugged, the 3rd/4th packs are about the IlClan/3rd Star League, and feature a crap ton of Republic designs.
Sigh, they're probably be driven by Clan pilots now, but at least my Republic battalion can have 'em in plastic.
tbh it makes sense to keep using those. Can't exactly retool every factory on Terra when you have several opponents breathing down your neck. Perhaps upgrading all to Clan spec might be coming. A Peacekeeper C or so
Or a new shift: pure Clan warrior get the shiny Clan Mechs, filthy IS soldiers get the rest
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Yeah. I can’t fault the logic of it. Just feels underwhelming that the first RotS designs in plastic are put in Clan Wolf packs.
Still, I want them. I’ll paint the RotS ones up as Hastati. I’ve got bears and Wolfes painted, so the other models will have a home right away
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Just wait when the packs for the FWL are released. Tomahwak, Warwolf, Carronade, Wulfen. Or something like that
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I’ll gripe. But Dark Age and ilClan mechs in plastic is a big win for me.
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The Peacekeeper constantly flies under my radar for several reasons (mismatched jump, TSM on something with no melee weapons or small tuning weapons) but a hypothetical 3SL variant that doesn't do those things that I will not be pseudo-designing in this thread would go a long way.
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The Peacekeeper constantly flies under my radar for several reasons (mismatched jump, TSM on something with no melee weapons or small tuning weapons) but a hypothetical 3SL variant that doesn't do those things that I will not be pseudo-designing in this thread would go a long way.
Yeah… I don’t see a variant of it I actually like.
Havoc looks like a nice super-Jenner.
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I can see why there doing Dark Age era mechs now but I'm not gonna lie. It's not something I will run out to get quickly on there release.
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For me, the two DA boxes might be the only ones I get. Very little if anything in the first two to get me excited, aside from the vees.
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For me, the two DA boxes might be the only ones I get. Very little if anything in the first two to get me excited, aside from the vees.
the Thudnerhawk, Atlas II and Emperor don't excite you?
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the Thudnerhawk, Atlas II and Emperor don't excite you?
.
Not really. I do need one more Emperor for my SLDF troops, but that's gonna be a metal Primitive to match the one I already have. Beyond that, I *might* go for an Atlas II if I can find a second RAF brigade that interests me after I finish my Hastati, but that's about it. On the whole, most of my forces are full up on assault machines, and I wouldn't put a Thunder Hawk in any of the few open slots. Gauss boats bore me most of the time. They're better than sleepwalking your away through a game with a Hellstar, but only marginally. Gimme a Malice instead any day.
All that said, I don't begrudge CGL choosing those mechs to be made. They're just not on my personal to-buy list.
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They're better than sleepwalking your away through a game with a Hellstar, but only marginally.
You better quit slandering my baby. :laugh:
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The Hellstar is incredibly boring. It's good and efficient but it's also not even a half step above being a mech that you can play by flowchart. And not a particularly long flowchart at that.
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You better quit slandering my baby. :laugh:
Heresy, everyone knows the Blood Kite is the only true Battlemech!
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The Hellstar is incredibly boring. It's good and efficient but it's also not even a half step above being a mech that you can play by flowchart. And not a particularly long flowchart at that.
All fine by me. I like winning and I like headcapping even more. :evil:
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There's a reasonable argument to be made for painting up literally any Assault that has ever existed and isn't confirmed extinct for the Battle of Terra in RAF colors and I for one will probably be doing that with an Alpha Wolf (tell me that won't look amazing in black and gold, you can't) as soon as I can get my grubby little hands on one.
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Hmmm... The Canadian fire departments probably had some St. Florians in the Cauldron... :cheesy:
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Hmmm... The Canadian fire departments probably had some St. Florians in the Cauldron... :cheesy:
Nah we're proably STILL using the Martin Mars Waterbomber for that :D
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Come now, that was replaced by the Torrent long ago. And when will we get a miniature for it?!?
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Such optimism, they clearly had moose-mounted infantry that had to politely ask the fire to go away.
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Such optimism, they clearly had moose-mounted infantry that had to politely ask the fire to go away.
before you mock Canada too much in a Battletech context you miiiiiiiiiiiiight wanna research where James McKenna was from :D
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before you mock Canada too much in a Battletech context you miiiiiiiiiiiiight wanna research where James McKenna was from :D
Or that the US became more "Canadian" in the Battletech universe :grin:
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Or that the US became more "Canadian" in the Battletech universe :grin:
How did the US become more Canadian? I musta missed that
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Come now, that was replaced by the Torrent long ago. And when will we get a miniature for it?!?
I just use diecast B-1s. :cool:
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before you mock Canada too much in a Battletech context you miiiiiiiiiiiiight wanna research where James McKenna was from :D
He can afford a spacesuit for his Moose.
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How did the US become more Canadian? I musta missed that
Jihad Hot Spots: Terra page 156:
"One Terran ethnographer recently noted "Americans have turned into Canadians". The Battletech current US Americans show less jingoism and social conservatism then the 20th and 22nd Americans they idolize
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Because Canadians are just liberal Americans :rolleyes:
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Because Canadians are just liberal Americans :rolleyes:
And let's not go too far in that almost and somewhat political direction! Although I kind of like the idea of Moose Mounted Infantry. Particularly if there ridden by Dudly Doorite styled troopers!
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And let's not go too far in that almost and somewhat political direction! Although I kind of like the idea of Moose Mounted Infantry. Particularly if there ridden by Dudly Doorite styled troopers!
Please someone submit this to Shrapnel
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And let's not go too far in that almost and somewhat political direction! Although I kind of like the idea of Moose Mounted Infantry. Particularly if there ridden by Dudly Doorite styled troopers!
Now we know how the Outworlds Alliance got the idea for their Tariq mounted infantry
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You know, a book about RAFers following the fall of Terra who are trying to get to their families having to go through several hostile states to get to their home planets would be a pretty cool one-off novel. Just an homage to the Odyssey, with lots of pontification on the highs and lows of the Republic and its ideals, as soldiers question their pre-disposed loyalty to the ROTS.
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Wasn't Terra already "greened" when the old Alliance was in control? Or did that only come when the Hegemony took over? I think there are not a lot of information but the books often tell that the Terran goverment repaired the damages that the early industrilization caused to Terra but they never mentioned HOW. Simply planting new trees is probably not enough. I could see the Hegemony using perhaps simple weather control tech but most likely nothing heavy like the Storminhibitors on Bryant or sun shades on Venus.
JHS: Terra attributes it to a continual effort that runs from the Alliance to ComStar.
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Galatean League, if it still exists
I know this is a bit of necromancy, but I just noticed a tidbit in Shrapnel 11 that’s relevant to this question: Galatea is mentioned as being a part of the Isle of Skye now in the Voices of the Sphere article. Looks like the Galatean League is done for.
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Doesn't surprise me. Weren't Hansen's Roughriders pretty much the core of the GDL? (Not to be confused with the GDL) With them off fighting on Terra, I'm not sure if there would have been enough left to keep a cohesive fighting force.
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Doesn't surprise me. Weren't Hansen's Roughriders pretty much the core of the GDL? (Not to be confused with the GDL) With them off fighting on Terra, I'm not sure if there would have been enough left to keep a cohesive fighting force.
Yeah. On Terra and they didn’t go back after either. Currently rebuilding based out of Tybalt IIRC.
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I know this is a bit of necromancy, but I just noticed a tidbit in Shrapnel 11 that’s relevant to this question: Galatea is mentioned as being a part of the Isle of Skye now in the Voices of the Sphere article. Looks like the Galatean League is done for.
But to which realm does the Isle of skye now belong to? The Wolf Empire? Or have they become independent again? Tamar Rising had no mention of Skye if I remember correctly.
Or did the Lyrans finally decide to retake some more territory?
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But to which realm does the Isle of skye now belong to? The Wolf Empire? Or have they become independent again? Tamar Rising had no mention of Skye if I remember correctly.
Or did the Lyrans finally decide to retake some more territory?
As far as we know, it’s an independent realm. It’s on one of the maps in Dominions Divided (barely, but it’s there) as its own political entity.
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My impression is that with the exception of those worlds conquered by a major power as part of their route to Terra, right now the former Prefecture X is pretty much a mass of suddenly independent worlds that haven't even had time to turn into a Chaos March or Hinterland yet. Is this correct?
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My impression is that with the exception of those worlds conquered by a major power as part of their route to Terra, right now the former Prefecture X is pretty much a mass of suddenly independent worlds that haven't even had time to turn into a Chaos March or Hinterland yet. Is this correct?
Honestly, I think the “conquered by other nations” worlds in Prefecture X far outstrip the “newly independent” worlds. The CapCon, Combine and Wolf Empire seem to have gobbled up almost all of them. The only ones that appear free are the worlds around Muphrid, Zollikofen and likely Thorin.
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Really? I was just thinking about the description of Seychelle's Stonehearts, who apparently have been doing brisk business in the worlds around Terra ever since the Trial.
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Really? I was just thinking about the description of Seychelle's Stonehearts, who apparently have been doing brisk business in the worlds around Terra ever since the Trial.
Maybe/hopefully IKEO will clear this up, but that’s what I was able to piece together between Shattered Fortress, ilClan, Dominions Divided and Empire Alone.
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So many of my preferred factions are holding their breath for IKEO... :cheesy:
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To be honest I am kind of suprised that the Prefecture X worlds the Wolves took are actually staying "Wolf". From what I understand is that the Wolves didn't even leave a token garrison after defeating whatever RAF unit was stationed there. I am kind of expecting IKEO to state that said planets have been gobbled up by the CCAF as a way to cut of Terra from a secure supply line
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Multiple major powers are eating Wolf worlds alive, if they are staying Wolf, it is a temporary state of affairs.
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So many of my preferred factions are holding their breath for IKEO... :cheesy:
I mean… as a Bear same lol
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Everytime I read those initials for the book, I keep thinking of IKEA.
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Everytime I read those initials for the book, I keep thinking of IKEA.
Flatpack is the future of tabletop warfare! Coming soon from Sweden!
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So many of my preferred factions are holding their breath for IKEO... :cheesy:
Now that Legends II is finished, I've started work on it. I had the team kickoff over the weekend, so IKEO is officially WIP.
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Hopefully Legends II is a little more polished than the first. I’m still disappointed that the artwork for Malvina Hazen’s Shrike was so completely wrong (wrong paint scheme, wrong weapons loadout). But the fact that Legends II is even coming is enough to get me excited.
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Hopefully Legends II is a little more polished than the first. I’m still disappointed that the artwork for Malvina Hazen’s Shrike was so completely wrong (wrong paint scheme, wrong weapons loadout).
Well all of the artwork just showed stock/primary config weapons loadouts, didn't it? Because they didn't make any changes to the existing 3d models. Same deal with Kerensky's Orion. There's a standard Orion weapon loadout listed and the art is the standard ON1-K even though we already had a record sheet for his custom variant with the snub PPC and gauss rifle. (Although the writeup then describes that version.)
Edit: well I just noticed Shin Yodama's Phoenix Hawk has his custom loadout listed in the specs so I was wrong about there being consistency on whether the specs were always stock. But the artwork is definitely all stock. I imagine it just wasn't feasible to customize the geometry instead of painting over the existing models.
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Be that as it may, I would still expect an art book, especially one that specifically showcases the Mechs of notable characters and advertises the camo specs of those Mechs on its back cover, to get the art right.
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Where is her mech's paint scheme described, and does it still force us to try and paint a ludicrously detailed bird over a chest with extremely deep details?
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Where is her mech's paint scheme described, and does it still force us to try and paint a ludicrously detailed bird over a chest with extremely deep details?
In both Flight of the Falcon and A Rending of Falcons, and no, LOL. Franz Vohwinkel also did an accurate job of it for the German cover of the former. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F36yKoOWoAASFGT?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
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In both Flight of the Falcon and A Rending of Falcons, and no, LOL. Franz Vohwinkel also did an accurate job of it for the German cover of the former. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F36yKoOWoAASFGT?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Thanks, I've been looking all over for an accurate Malvina scheme to paint, though those checkerboards scare me just a bit :laugh:
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Thanks, I've been looking all over for an accurate Malvina scheme to paint, though those checkerboards scare me just a bit :laugh:
I just painted mine to look the clickytech version. That way there was no checkerboards.
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Aside from the checkers, does that match the clicky model?
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Aside from the checkers, does that match the clicky model?
Pretty close I think. Mostly Jade Green and black paneling.
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Honestly, I might try it with the checkers. Those are solid panels and easy to reach, pretty good training surfaces for a first attempt and easy enough to paint over if it goes to crap.
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Those checks are also about the right shape and size that you can use decals from any one of a dozen different sources for it.
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Some additional details from A Rending of Falcons:
Upon its right thigh-plate glistened a black rose, on the left a stylized jade-green eye with human shape and a falcon’s vertical stripe. Over the covers of the long-range missile launchers in its breastplate were painted two staring blue eyes: the Eyes of the Falcon, as Malvina and her brother had once been called. Her desant had taken them as its unofficial badge during the Skye campaign; now Malvina, having adopted the Horus eye as the symbol of her Mongol faction, used them to denote veterans of that struggle.
From behind its back slowly unfolded a pair of great jagged wings, painted gold and buff on the undersides like the plumage of an adult jade falcon.
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In both Flight of the Falcon and A Rending of Falcons, and no, LOL. Franz Vohwinkel also did an accurate job of it for the German cover of the former. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F36yKoOWoAASFGT?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Ah, the good 'ole clickytech paint schemes for Falcons, can't wait to do up a binary of Gyrfalcons and get yelled at by Delta Galaxy purists.
Does anyone know if the new Shrapnel that just came out has any Republic tidbits in it?
We're also getting two books in IlClan era about Republic Remnants, Trial of Birthright about Ghost Knights on Terra, and Voidbreaker about Tucker Harwell (And Ghost Knights helping him, I think?).
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Does anyone know if the new Shrapnel that just came out has any Republic tidbits in it?
Just tidbits really. Though "Picking the Bones" does focus, in part, on a Republic unit fleeing Terra *cough*shameless plug*coughcough*
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Some additional details from A Rending of Falcons:
From behind its back slowly unfolded a pair of great jagged wings, painted gold and buff on the undersides like the plumage of an adult jade falcon.
Those descriptions seem...VERY different from the image you posted earlier.
I think I'll just go by the Vohwinkel image.
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Just tidbits really. Though "Picking the Bones" does focus, in part, on a Republic unit fleeing Terra *cough*shameless plug*coughcough*
Well I'll buy it just for that. Just need to know if the kickstarter is giving a POD version or only the PDF.
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We're also getting two books in IlClan era about Republic Remnants, Trial of Birthright about Ghost Knights on Terra, and Voidbreaker about Tucker Harwell (And Ghost Knights helping him, I think?).
I kind of expected that the Ghosts were not falling in line with the regime change. And Tucker has at least two knights (one an Errant the other a Ghost) as friends. The question is though is if he actually leaves Terra or gets snapped by the Sea Foxes who try to restore the HPG's. Tucker is, despite the damage Comstar did to him, still the only one to ever reactivate a HPG.. That reminds me: did the Wyatt HPG stop working after the fix or did this station keep working normally? Era Report 3145 stated that while Comstar had the fix Tucker used on Wyatt it never worked permanently. Well this is Comstar though so I suspect they fudged it. Or each HPG core needs it's own careful recalibration.
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Where did they cover what Trial By Birthright was about? I was assuming it was wolf focused
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I kind of expected that the Ghosts were not falling in line with the regime change. And Tucker has at least two knights (one an Errant the other a Ghost) as friends. The question is though is if he actually leaves Terra or gets snapped by the Sea Foxes who try to restore the HPG's. Tucker is, despite the damage Comstar did to him, still the only one to ever reactivate a HPG.. That reminds me: did the Wyatt HPG stop working after the fix or did this station keep working normally? Era Report 3145 stated that while Comstar had the fix Tucker used on Wyatt it never worked permanently. Well this is Comstar though so I suspect they fudged it. Or each HPG core needs it's own careful recalibration.
As far as I can tell Wyatt is still functional but Tucker Harwell is not the only person to get an out of commission HPG back up and working. The natives of Northwind were able to do so without his aid(covered in the timeline section of FM:3145 if you need a citation).
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The Foxes seem to have figured out how to do it themselves, based on some entries in Empire Alone.
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Some additional details from A Rending of Falcons:
From behind its back slowly unfolded a pair of great jagged wings, painted gold and buff on the undersides like the plumage of an adult jade falcon.
So the Mongols of the Jade Falcons used the Eye of Horus as their symbol?
And Malvina basicly wanted the galaxy to burn?
....
wow they wheren't even being subtle :)
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As far as I can tell Wyatt is still functional but Tucker Harwell is not the only person to get an out of commission HPG back up and working. The natives of Northwind were able to do so without his aid(covered in the timeline section of FM:3145 if you need a citation).
I just searched FM3145 and didn't see it. You sure you don't mean Shattered Fortress?
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Ok so I when I was re-reading Field Manual 3145 I noticed an interesting tidbit about Stone's Brigade. Until 3136, only the Lament and Liberators were active, the Pride, Fury, Revenants, and Defenders all were created post-Fortress. It led me to think about just how bad of a state the RAF was in when Gray Monday hit, if even the premier brigade in the RAF could only muster 2 regiments of BattleMechs.
We can assume 10-20% dilapidation of the line regiments, higher in prefectures where things had gotten pretty relaxed (IX, III, IV, VIII), and then a further 10-20% defection rate to the splinter factions.
Dragon's Fury stole at least 2 regiments (Amaterasu, a unique regiment, and a reinforced regiment worth of troops for its Brotherhood)
The Highlanders "borrowed" the 1st Kearny Highlanders and probably another 2 line regiments worth of troops (They were still doing the same job the RAF would have, but they were working outside the chain of command.
SwordSworn stole 2 line regiments (6 battalions between the Davion Guard and Prince's Men, plus the Ghost Rangers battalion).
Bannson's apparently created his own regiment out of hiring private mercs, I doubt many RAFers defected to him.
Spirit Cats and Steel Wolves stripped 6 clusters of clan militia from Clan enclaves in Prefectures II, III, and IV.
Stormhammers stripped Prefecture IX bare of line regiments.
Era Digest: Dark Age mentioned other splinter factions running around like a pro-Marik faction in Prefecture VII, could've deluded strength.
The only original RAF line regiments we know survived to 3145 were;
7th Hastati
3rd Principes
8th Triarii
Besides the 3rd Principes, the other two regiments were from areas with smaller/no splinter factions (Except for the Marik-aligned Free Eagles).
So by 3134, aside from the 2 Stone Brigade Regiments, I'd be shocked if the RAF had more than 10 line regiments running around. We know inPrinciples of Desolation the 6th Triarii were still fighting back against Liao, and from other sources the 5th and 6th line regiments were probably the most intact following Gray Monday.
But it makes sense that the Republic folded so quickly.
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Remember when the Steel Wolves invaded Terra and there were basically no defenses? It sounds absolutely ludicrous that even the Warships are not there guarding the capital but it happened. And till this day it makes no sense that the RAf that eeked out a Phyrric victory against the CCAF in the Capellan Crusades (even loosing a handful of units) did NOt ramp up their military production and training just to make sure they can uphiold their "Pax Republicana. I mean when did Gray Monday hit? 20 years after the end of the Crusades? How can the RAF loose so much in 20 years? Or was it really all about the dissapearance of Stone that ripped the Republic apart or rather started the unraveling of it?
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Remember when the Steel Wolves invaded Terra and there were basically no defenses? It sounds absolutely ludicrous that even the Warships are not there guarding the capital but it happened. And till this day it makes no sense that the RAf that eeked out a Phyrric victory against the CCAF in the Capellan Crusades (even loosing a handful of units) did NOt ramp up their military production and training just to make sure they can uphiold their "Pax Republicana. I mean when did Gray Monday hit? 20 years after the end of the Crusades? How can the RAF loose so much in 20 years? Or was it really all about the dissapearance of Stone that ripped the Republic apart or rather started the unraveling of it?
The RAF having a fleet of warships was something FM3145 created, it definitely wasn't hinted at during the Wizkids era or in any of the novels.
We know that from some of the early INN stories on the Wizkids website the RAF had been getting budget cut to death. Maybe the Senate and Stone thought beating the CCAF twice in a row was enough to make sure they wouldn't come back. The rot definitely started BEFORE Stone retired, probably by a decade.
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Mech based units seemed to be on the downswing while conventional units seemed to make up the bulk of the Republics defense. I think besides the loss of units to the various Pirate factions the Republic didn't save anything for a rainy day. No or little Mech forces were placed in storage but rather scrapped as they were acquired and training new mechwarriors was at a near standstill. As noted Terra early on had next to no defenses but it might have had significant conventional defenses that just weren't available or could be transported easily to the defense. But by 3151 the Republic through production and salvage was able to produce several Regiments of Battlemechs. Honestly I think if Levin had remained in charge the defense of Terra might have gone differently.
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I just searched FM3145 and didn't see it. You sure you don't mean Shattered Fortress?
Could of sworn it was in the timeline of FM:3145. Sarna does cite ED: Dark Age page 4 as a source for Northwind's HPG being restored by locals by 3135.
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The RAF having a fleet of warships was something FM3145 created, it definitely wasn't hinted at during the Wizkids era or in any of the novels.
We know that from some of the early INN stories on the Wizkids website the RAF had been getting budget cut to death. Maybe the Senate and Stone thought beating the CCAF twice in a row was enough to make sure they wouldn't come back. The rot definitely started BEFORE Stone retired, probably by a decade.
The RAf had 4 Warships left after the Jihad and unlike their Faslane and Newgrange ships those were kept in operation. So I would think that they would assign at least the biggest cruiser to capital defense
But yeah it defintely seems that way that the peace made the Republic grow weak despite the fact that the CCAF beat the shit out of them during the Crusades and without Kai waging his own private war behind enemy lines (with a steadily shrinking unit no less) the Republic might have lost said war. And I doubt Levin alone would have m,ade a difference if he had been in charge. The wall's durability was always a factor and we know that the citizens behind the wall became restless. If anything the wall was not being used to it's full potential
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Could of sworn it was in the timeline of FM:3145. Sarna does cite ED: Dark Age page 4 as a source for Northwind's HPG being restored by locals by 3135.
The Wyatt HPG did stop working after a time. The Imbros III HPG was damaged by an attack during Gray Monday or after (I can't remember what they settled on), but the local repair did not implement a "fix" for the HPG.
Whoops...yup, Imbros III
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Could of sworn it was in the timeline of FM:3145. Sarna does cite ED: Dark Age page 4 as a source for Northwind's HPG being restored by locals by 3135.
ED Dark Age pg. 4 does say that there was a HPG fixed by local efforts, but it wasn't Northwind; it was Imbros III's.
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ED Dark Age pg. 4 does say that there was a HPG fixed by local efforts, but it wasn't Northwind; it was Imbros III's.
*shrug*
It's one of two sources cited by Sarna that Northwind restored it's HPG itself. The other is the LinkNet stuff done for MWDA.
If that's incorrect then someone needs to update Sarna.
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IIRC the grey watch series referances the Northwind HPG working
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*shrug*
It's one of two sources cited by Sarna that Northwind restored it's HPG itself. The other is the LinkNet stuff done for MWDA.
If that's incorrect then someone needs to update Sarna.
I may not be incorrect at the time it was sited. LinkNet was "canon" when it was published. However, outsight, out of mind. No one has updated it.
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Neither source said Northwind's HPG service was restored by locals, or even lost in the first place. Sarna repairs are underway.
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The HPG issues ran a whole wide range of issues. From not working at all to working fine to receiving signals from far outside there range and including such as Recieving but not transmitting and vica versa. Could the Northwind HPG just one day started working or just finally got tuned properly? Or reported as down but worked just fine?
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The HPG issues ran a whole wide range of issues. From not working at all to working fine to receiving signals from far outside there range and including such as Recieving but not transmitting and vica versa. Could the Northwind HPG just one day started working or just finally got tuned properly? Or reported as down but worked just fine?
Without the LinkNet article readily available I am not sure.
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I didn't think LinkNet they're not canon anymore.
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Without the LinkNet article readily available I am not sure.
They're available on the Downloads page.
https://bg.battletech.com/download/DarkAge_3132-3134_INN.pdf
https://bg.battletech.com/download/DarkAge_3136_LinkNet.pdf
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/LinkNet
I didn't think LinkNet they're not canon anymore.
Nope, they're still canon.
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So re-reading Shrapnel #7 I noticed that a good portion of the Republic forces on Talitha joined up with the Augustine Alliance as the first Augustine Arquebusiers. So I guess the path forward for most RAF ex-ers is.
~ Merc
~ Davion (There's the Dawn Guard, SwordSworn, but also there's still RAF remnants on one of the Davion worlds Julian is letting rest)
~ FWL/Augustine Alliance.
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The DawnGuard was a gift from the Exarch to Julian to cause some chaos. And most of them decided to stay when they heard Julian decided to not help the Republic.
The Swordsworn were one of the Splintergroups like Dragon's Fury or Stormhammers that formed around Gray Monday.
So they might not be the best examples here. But I think going Merc might be the most used option for RAF units that somehow managed to survive.
Though joining the FWL might also have a certain appeal now that the League has decided to go to war with the Wolves. Let's not forget that Ariana Zou also threw her lot with the League after waging a one woman guerilla campaign against the Wolf garrison on Marcus
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I would be all over the Dawn Guard or Augustine Arquebusiers, if both forces didn't have utterly psychotic paint schemes.
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Dawn Guard are massively helped by Imperial Fist contrast paint being a miracle in a bottle but that white is still tough.
I haven't seen Augustine Arquebusiers, what's their scheme?
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I forget the details, they're in one of the Shrapnels. I think the base is purple fading to orange and there's striping or and other detail on top of that nastiness.
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Shrapnel 8: Gradient of red on upper body or forward fading to Marik Purple on bottom or rear, with Gold Highlights throughout
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At least they're fairly close to each other on the color wheel, but still...
The sooner Battletech artists and writers fall out of their love affair with fade schemes, the better.
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From a practical standpoint, I agree. They do look snappy though...
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I just get really annoyed by paint schemes that functionally lock out beginner or intermediate painters. Fancy schemes are fine for unique pilots, or command lances or companies, or similar elite-of-the-elite formations, but I don't believe any entire regiment should be stuck behind that. Smacks too much of gatekeeping.
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I just get really annoyed by paint schemes that functionally lock out beginner or intermediate painters. Fancy schemes are fine for unique pilots, or command lances or companies, or similar elite-of-the-elite formations, but I don't believe any entire regiment should be stuck behind that. Smacks too much of gatekeeping.
Well, BattleTech doesn't REQUIRE you paint your minis like some games I could mention. Nobody is going to say "Hey, those aren't the Augustine Arquebusiers, the Augustine Arquebusiers are red fading to purple and your minis are only red AND purple."
But I generally sympathize with your point.
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I just get really annoyed by paint schemes that functionally lock out beginner or intermediate painters. Fancy schemes are fine for unique pilots, or command lances or companies, or similar elite-of-the-elite formations, but I don't believe any entire regiment should be stuck behind that. Smacks too much of gatekeeping.
*weeps in Stone's Brigade*
Seriously. I'm more or less defaulted to the Liberators because 'phantasmal animals' are at least manageable, unlike skeletal patterns on every other unit in the whole brigade. Wonderful centerpiece scheme for those skilled and patient enough to tackle it, but I feel like you almost never see them in the wild otherwise.
I have every sympathy with you Weirdo and the valid point you've made, but with some of the advances in paints the last few years like Contrast and Speedpaints, fades at least have become much more manageable.
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At least they're fairly close to each other on the color wheel, but still...
The sooner Battletech artists and writers fall out of their love affair with fade schemes, the better.
I would be shocked, SHOCKED, if anyone even did a double take at an Augustine Arquebusier that was just top red with gold accents, and on the bottom purple with gold accents.
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Are the colors of the Fides Defenders mentioned anywhere?
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Are the colors of the Fides Defenders mentioned anywhere?
Not sure but I think Shell Games might have mentioned it. Grey and Red I think?
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Maybe we'll see their camo being presented in a book dedicated to camouflage for the Republic of the Sphere or miscellaneous camo guide if they get one.
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Maybe we'll see their camo being presented in a book dedicated to camouflage for the Republic of the Sphere or miscellaneous camo guide if they get one.
Well,the Davion one had 17 schemes. In the unlikely event a paint guide for RotS came along, it would be…
Triarii Protectors
Principes Guard
Hastati Sentinels
Fides
Fidelis
NWH
2-3x of stones brigade.
?
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I know it's going to be the absolute last one of the list, but a Republic painting guide would be nice.
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Or at least a consolidated written description of the schemes.
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Well,the Davion one had 17 schemes. In the unlikely event a paint guide for RotS came along, it would be…
Triarii Protectors
Principes Guard
Hastati Sentinels
Fides
Fidelis
NWH
2-3x of stones brigade.
?
perhaps some of the pirate factions from the blackout period? Bannson's raiders for example. or perhaps some of the forces from the splinter states like the Tall Trees Union and Vega protectorate.
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Nope, they're still canon.
Regarding the old MWDA LinkNet documents.
I just wanted to jump in real quick and mention that while you're correct--they're still canon--the LinkNet docs are considered the lowest-rated canon. Meaning, if the content from a LinkNet doc contradicts content from a newer sourcebook or novel, it's the LinkNet document that's considered in error and disregarded.
Famously, or (infamously) for example, LinkNet presents New Earth's atmosphere as "tainted," which is incorrect. So YMMV with the LinkNet downloads. ::shrugs::
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Regarding the old MWDA LinkNet documents.
I just wanted to jump in real quick and mention that while you're correct--they're still canon--the LinkNet docs are considered the lowest-rated canon. Meaning, if the content from a LinkNet doc contradicts content from a newer sourcebook or novel, it's the LinkNet document that's considered in error and disregarded.
Famously, or (infamously) for example, LinkNet presents New Earth's atmosphere as "tainted," which is incorrect. So YMMV with the LinkNet downloads. ::shrugs::
And everyone knows the reliability of INN Comstar. :laugh:
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Or at least a consolidated written description of the schemes.
Same treatment as the other csmospecs would be nice, but this would be enough for me
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Looking at Battle Armor for my Republic Triarii Regiment/post-Wall merc forces, what are considered iconic vehicles and battle armor for the Republic?
So far I've got
Angerona Battle Armor
Purifier Battle Armor
Kinnol MBT
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Just off the top of my head:
Kopis
Taranis
Centaur
Simian
Bolla
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Marksman MBT.
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DI Schmitt (Tank)
DI Morgan (Tank)
Kelswa Assault Tank
Kinnol (Combat Vehicle)
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Winston
Giggins
Regulator 2 (yeah I know it's technically an upgrade of the Capellan Regulator but it's main factory lies in Republic space)
Perhaps not real iconic but mentioned in the novels:
Hauberk
Zugvogel
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I remember all the flavors of JES in the novels.
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No mention of the Demon, the Scapha, the Padilla, the Tribune, the Praetorian or the Trajan?
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Some of them are used by the Republic, but I'm not sure if I'd call them iconic RAF units.
Definitely the Scapha though, and to a similar extent the Zephyr OmniDrone(and by extension the Diggs). Those are VERY Republic, I was thinking of them when I clicked on this thread.
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The Trajan defintely. The coaltion at that time didn't see the value in it so all units were taken over by the Republic and they stayed there too. The JES are a rather IS common thing as it's manufacturer sells them to all comers.
Was thinking of the Behemoth 2 but that tank is also sold on the open market
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funny how no one saw a use to a 3/5 infantry transport innit? :)
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If the weapons load weren't so eclectic, I'd use it in every urban combat game.
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If the weapons load weren't so eclectic, I'd use it in every urban combat game.
yeah the weapons load out is just weird.
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It's got a definite "box of spare parts was stuck onto this chassis" feel to it.
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yeah the weapons load out is just weird.
When the tank is a carrier of heavy infantry you don't need overwhelming firepower. Just enough to distract the opponent from the REAL threat. Plus the AC and missile luancher can both fire incendiary ammo so you can always cause some extra havoc