So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?

[tomaddamz]

I think part of that is they are MechCorps, the LRM carriers are not so bad as there units that can bodyguard them.  In a purely armored formation there is no good bodyguard, and with the low tactical speed of the standard and heavy LRM carriers, they will either kill everything before they are reached, or be destroyed in place as they cannot get away from anything faster than an Urbanmech.  For the LRM carrier strategy to work you must have cover for your carriers, and a more immediate threat to sap momentum.  If we were just facing vehicles, this would actually work out reasonably well; against high end light/medium mechs this breaks down rapidly and you wind up with a lot of dead LRM carriers.

[Liam's Ghost]

LRM carriers can actually cover each other. Just keep them spaced out. Everybody scratches everybody else's back.

If you're employing LRM carriers in a single densely packed nest, you're doing it wrong.

[Medron Pryde]

Where in the Taurian Concordat specifically are these vehicles being produced?  Please cite canon.   Were this the Outworlds Alliance, or the Magistracy of Canopus there would be no doubt, however we are not discussing either of these entities.

Well, the source in question says that the Rommel/Patton and the Po have been copied and built on at least a dozen worlds.  This is in the early 3060s.  It mentions no specific worlds for this, so we have to look at canon to see what is out there that COULD do this.

Now, a quick check of the existing factory worlds in the Periphery in the early 3060s shows that there are one dozen known factory complexes that produce final ground unit chassis.

Marian Hegemony: 1
Magistracy of Canopus: 2
Outworlds Alliance: 2
Taurian Concordat: 7

Now, assuming we do not add factories to the Periphery nations, EVERY SINGLE known factory world of completed ground units (I'm not counting AeroSpace only factories or component only factories here) builds copied versions of the Rommel/Patton or the Po in the early 3060s.  If we add factories that are currently not canon, then there are some interesting possibilities, but I'm not sold on that being a requirement in this case.  I do know of two WOB factories that the Magistracy and the Taurians capture during the Jihad, but whether or not those were active at the time and whether or not the WOB would talk about them in the open are both very interesting questions.  ;)

Now we know how the Rommel/Patton made it to the Periphery.  It was purchased from the Lyran Commonwealth and copied.  Easy peasy.

The Po is an interesting story.  ;)  It was designed and built after the Fourth Succession War, and was one of the main tanks the Capellans used against Andurien and the Magistracy.  Therefore, it is logical that the Magistracy captured a number of Pos during that war, tore them apart, began building them, and then spread the plans out to the other major Periphery states.

[Stormfury]

... all of which falls apart when you look at the entries in the Tech Readouts and H: MPS.

You know, when we compare your personal opinion, so frequently claimed to be canon, to what actual canon sources state.

[tomaddamz]

Well, the source in question says that the Rommel/Patton and the Po have been copied and built on at least a dozen worlds.  This is in the early 3060s.  It mentions no specific worlds for this, so we have to look at canon to see what is out there that COULD do this.

These could be worlds in the Federated Commonwealth or Free Worlds League, at least that is what I get from this quote.

Now, a quick check of the existing factory worlds in the Periphery in the early 3060s shows that there are one dozen known factory complexes that produce final ground unit chassis.

Marian Hegemony: 1
Magistracy of Canopus: 2
Outworlds Alliance: 2
Taurian Concordat: 7

Now, assuming we do not add factories to the Periphery nations, EVERY SINGLE known factory world of completed ground units (I'm not counting AeroSpace only factories or component only factories here) builds copied versions of the Rommel/Patton or the Po in the early 3060s.  If we add factories that are currently not canon, then there are some interesting possibilities, but I'm not sold on that being a requirement in this case.

For four of those locations (the two in both the MoC and OA) there is no doubt about Po construction, and I believe the OA can do the Rommel IIRC, the MoC would be better off doing the Manticore.  However the Taurian Concordat does not manufacture the engine required for the Po, so why would they build this?  It is possible to call them knockdown kits ( much like Indian T-90s) with bi-lateral trade on engines (at least there is trade in both directions, minimized trade deficit...win)

In the words of Dr. Frederick Von Frankenstein...it....could....work! }:)

  I do know of two WOB factories that the Magistracy and the Taurians capture during the Jihad, but whether or not those were active at the time and whether or not the WOB would talk about them in the open are both very interesting questions.  ;)

Now we know how the Rommel/Patton made it to the Periphery.  It was purchased from the Lyran Commonwealth and copied.  Easy peasy.

Along with the Hunter and Commando?  It sounds more like astute politics to me; they are far enough away they cannot even indirectly shoot at us, yet may draw forces away from our borders.  That is a Strategic Winâ„¢ in my book.

The Po is an interesting story.  ;)  It was designed and built after the Fourth Succession War, and was one of the main tanks the Capellans used against Andurien and the Magistracy.  Therefore, it is logical that the Magistracy captured a number of Pos during that war, tore them apart, began building them, and then spread the plans out to the other major Periphery states.

   All except for the engines to make them go, well at least to Taurus as I cannot find reference to one in print anywhere (and not necessarily that I would want that one anyway...I have an evil plan)

[Medron Pryde]

These could be worlds in the Federated Commonwealth or Free Worlds League, at least that is what I get from this quote.

That is a very interesting idea, and it actually caused me to pause for a bit.  I wouldn't want people to think that I'm too quick to see something that isn't there just because I WANT it to be there after all.  ;)  So I pulled up the book again and very carefully read the entire paragraph.  There are four sentences in that paragraph.  Three of those four, including the one talking about the copying and building, have the word Periphery in them.  Therefore, I think it is clear that they are talking about the Periphery copying and building the designs.  Remember that this is talking about the status quo in the early 3060s.  The Rommel only started production in 3024 or so so the earliest a copy of that could have been produced would have been after that date.  And the Po was not produced until 3030 or so, and as my assumption at least goes, the Magistracy would not have begun producing them until after their little war with the Capellans.  In both cases, the production of the copy would have started on one factory, and spread out from there to the other factions through gifts, trades, or outright theft.

As noted before, the Taurians already build the fusion engine for the Rommel, so production of a copy of that design is really rather easy, and dissemination of that to the Magistracy and the Outworlds Alliance, both of which have the infrastructure to produce fusion-powered vehicles themselves, would be doable.  The Marians in the early 3060s do not build fusion-powered vehicles, so in that time frame the Rommel-copy does not make sense.  By 3067, they build the Fulcrum though, so at that time I could see them having the infrastructure to build the copy.  As for weapons on the design, all three "Old Periphery" realms build autocannons, LRMs, and laser that can be placed on a Rommel/Patton-copy.  The main hurdle that the Outworlds and the Magistracy would have is replicating the fusion engine, but they already build fusion engines so that should be doable in a matter of years at the most.

The Po is much, MUCH easier.  The ICE engines that power it can really be built anywhere very easily.  It's like the difference between a 4 cylinder and a 12 cylinder engine there.  You just slap more cylinders in until it does what you need it to do.  ;)  As for the main weapon, the Concordat already makes the Pontiac 10 that is buried in the Gladius, so there is a ready supply for them as well.  Not to mention a trail of breadcrumbs for the Marians to build the Po USING that Pontiac autocannon.  ;)  The other established Periphery powers would have an even easier time building the Po.  The Outworlds builds Armstrong autocannons and machine guns, while the Magistracy builds Armstrong and Zeusbolt autocannons and SperryBrowning machine guns.  The TC builds SperryBrowning and Voeklers machine guns.

In short, all of the "Old Periphery" realms have the infrastructure to build a copy of the Rommel/Patton, either easily in the case of the TC or with some work upgunning fusion engines for the others.

EVERY major realm, even the Marians, have the infrastructure to build a copy of the Po, and for them it makes even more sense.  One main cannon on two vehicles?  Dang, now THAT is simplifying the logistics of placing them on the line when it comes to ammo and repairs and stuff like that.  Honestly, the Marians building a copy of the Po is really a perfect fit.  It gives them a decent MBT that works well with their other stuff.  And militia forces, or even a lot of federal forces, in the Old Periphery realms aren't going to raise their nose at a copy of the Po either.  It is, seriously, a VERY good vehicle for either a destroyed House like the CC of the 3030s or for Periphery realms looking to expand their armor forces.  :)

[Stormfury]

The Outworlds Alliance builds the Rommel. The Magistracy of Canopus builds the Po.

The Outworlds Alliance obtained the Rommel via the Federated Suns, and the Capellan overtures to the Alliance can likely account for the Po.

The Magistracy gained their production of the Po after aligning with the Capellan Confederation in the Trinity Alliance.

The Taurian Concordat does not build either.

The paragraph you keep appealing to does not grant them the ability to. The writers and line developers have been quite clear about this.

[XaosGorilla]

       So, Tom, what direction do you want to take your thread in?

[tomaddamz]

Well.....   .....   

I'd like to return to the original premise of the post if I could

1)  Why or why not would the Concordant build the Rommel ?

2)   If not the Rommel, what would the concordant build that "may" be mistaken for the Rommel

To where the conversation wandered into it's most productive territory

Now I'll accept that the thread has drifted some, and I think actually for the better, by asking what the Taurian Armored units may actually need to perform their duty better.  What we are discussing is what characteristics such a platform would need to possess.

Now to take a sharp left at Albuquerque followed by a polar route trip to the heart of Kazakhstan,  because after that trip I will be fiending for some Baursak and strong tea, but I digress..


Now it does seem that a majority of voters did believe that the Taurian Concordat has a need for a an MBT that can more decisively punch out a light or medium Mech as it's target.  It doesn't have to be all that high tech, but I would like to see it's components either all made in the Taurian Concordat, or once made in the Taurian Concordat (like the 180 Fusion from the Hatchetman for instance).  And most importantly, tactically how does the vehicle you have thought of function within the framework of other Taurian vehicles.

For instance, I could easily engineer a 2/3 80 ton AC/10 carrier I'll call the Bestürzung; why, because I like the name.  Now what purpose would a unit that slow accomplish? Semi-mobile pillbox for me to retreat toward.... Bodyguard for LRM Carriers...run down crippled Urbanmechs and assorted foot infantry...I could see that, it has a purpose. 

Now lets assume that the poll above is the order coming from the General Staff of the Taurian Defense Corps, We have decreed we need a better MBT.  rough it out ( no designs here, we have the Companion Thread™¼©þ for that).  But tell us why this solves all of your MBT problems...even if you don't exactly see it that way.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I think the Taurians need hovercrafts more than MBTs. You have a lot of 'Mechs that can serve as the backbone of any formation, but hovercrafts allow a stretched Periphery military like the TDF to cover more ground in defensive operations against the constant pirate raids

[Stormfury]

That's the conclusion the Taurians appear to have reached according to the Field Manual, yes.

LRM carriers for defence and support, hovercraft and conventional fighters for rapid response, Vedettes for everything else.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

And to directly answer the OP, you dont need to clone or build a Rommel or Po when you have two factories building a better 65-tonner, the Thunderbolt, even in Succession Wars-tech.

[Medron Pryde]

In answer to the first question, the TC would build the Rommel because in the 3020s...and the 3030s...and the 3040s...and the 3050s...(ahem), the TDF was being bolstered by constant spending at the orders of the Mad King Tommy so it would be ready to repel the inevitable Davion invasion.  For this, they would need an MBT, something with big guns that could stop an invasion cold if produced in sufficient numbers.

The 60 ton Manticores MIGHT fit this bill, but they lack short range "get out of here or die" punch.  For that, the two upper class autocannons are much better.  Of course, there will always be room for a Manticore's particle cannon in any well rounded army.  ;)

Now based on canon, the Taurians really hardly use any tank above 70 tons.  Anything larger than that is very rare.  So if we are looking at a new design for the Taurians to build to stop the inevitable Davion invasion cold, it is going to be somewhere in the range of 60 to 70 tons.  Better or equal to the Manticore, cheap to build, good mobility, good firepower.  Built by the lance, they can kill allot of stuff.  :)

Beyond that, a good MBT needs to keep up with the main battleline, suggesting a minimum speed of 4-6 based on the speed of the basic Taurian trooper (Thunderbolt) and "assault" heavy battleMechs like the Warhammer.

Based on all of that, the most wished design would be in the 60 to 70 ton range, move 4-6, and have an AC10 or AC20 as its main weapon.  Extra room would go to filler weapons like machine guns or missiles.

Interestingly, the Rommel/Patton and the Po both fit that basic criteria, as does the Manticore if you consider the particle cannon as a stand in for an AC10.  ;)

According to canon, the Manticore is available to the Taurians through their pseudo and full alliance with the Magistracy, and they built copies of the Rommel/Patton and Po as well.  How exact the copies are is anybody's guess, though since the lawyers and newsies are saying they aren't Rommels, so it very well may be as evil, vainglorious, and heretical as saying a Dodge Aries is the same thing as a Plymouth Reliant.  Oh the horror...   8)

[Stormfury]

It matters not how many times you claim it is canon the Rommel (and now Po) are manufactured in the Concordat, it remains non-canon, baseless and utterly unsupportable with actual canon sources.

[Ruger]

Gentlemen,


I make the request right now. Stop arguing the point in circles...the writers have confirmed that the Taurians have never made the Rommel. That should be enough for everyone. You want to play it some other way in your own games, that's fine, but it is not a part of the canonical universe.

Thank you,

Ruger

[tomaddamz]

I am sorry, I asked for this recursion (it what I get for quoting myself).

Can we all agree a couple of things here to get around this loop.

1).  Ignore my original questions about the Rommel, they did not help.

2).  Can we see this as an Indefinite request for information, so the TC doesn't get the Rommel, Who cares, there are better platforms for the AC/20 anyway.  Now we can still debate the wisdom of building an MBT that is better than the Vedette¹, but accept the wisdom of the 'Privy Council' in the voting on the poll and say they funded a study on finding a better one.   What technical characteristics would you deem to be appropriate?  How do these characteristics fit a perceived need, sell us on this design criteria.

You will also notice that this in not an existing platform, this is an engineering study.  There will be no submitting existing canon designs, especially if the components are not already or have not been made in the Concordat.  Other than that, have fun spending the money that has been allocated on this project, and remember to spend it all or they'll cut our funding next time a project comes around. (so submit all receipts, even the one for all the booze and..uh...entertainment...)


^{1  The Vedette is definitely not an MBT, that is my opinion, even it's own fluff betrays it as a cav vehicle} 

[Stormfury]

If you're going for an all-new design, I believe a 3/5 mover is sufficient. The tank's role is not to be on the front line, but to deploy defensively, moving with the second line of battle, and providing support. As you move into the 3050+ era, even the Houses' big bruiser MBTs are cognisant of this reality.

A fusion engine, until you reach the 3060s, is essentially impossible unless you are willing to power your heavy tank with a fusion engine from the other vehicle lines the Concordat has, in which case you will be moving 2/3 if you're lucky. That leaves us with ICEs or, thanks to the Tech Manual, Fuel-Cell engines. The Fuel-Cell engines are fantastic, offering the best performance for an engine short of an XL Fusion while still being quite cheap and easy to make. The only downside is that they still require additional heat sinks and power amplifiers if you want to make use of energy weapons.

The primary armament, for mine, should not be based around the A/C-20. It has too short an engagement range to be of use most of the time, and a tank is too slow-moving (and/or prone to immobilisation) to be able to close in and blaze away. The Large Laser, A/C-5 and -10, and PPC are better choices, as they balance damage against range.

The main gun(s?) then need to be backed by LRMs to hold the opponent at range. What you'll be facing in the same class can usually only deliver 10 damage max at ranges greater than 18 hexes, so an LRM-10 of your own will allow some sort of reply, as well as providing indirect fire support options.

After that, SRMs and Machine Guns. MGs to wipe out infantry, SRMs for short-range punch when under the minimum range of the main gun and/or load Inferno ammunition to slaughter enemy vehicles, scare off SHS-equipped 'Mechs, and roast infantry.

The Fuel-Cell Minotaur I posted in the design thread fits the bill on all accounts; 3/5 mover, A/C-10, LRM, SRM and Machine Gun weapons array, with enough armour to brawl it out no matter the foe.

Honestly, it's the kind of Level 1/3025/Introductory Tech machine any faction would have been glad of at the time.

[Medron Pryde]

Per the OP's request to make this a basic engineering study on what would be possible, I will keep my future comments on what is possible to build, not on what  designs they DID build in canon.  I will start by copying the most recent relevant post on the matter since it makes most of my arguments for me and I'd rather not retype everything.  ;)


In answer to the question of WHY the TC would build an MBT, the TC would build a new MBT because in the 3020s...and the 3030s...and the 3040s...and the 3050s...(ahem), the TDF was being bolstered by constant spending at the orders of the Mad King Tommy so it would be ready to repel the inevitable Davion invasion.  For this, they would need an MBT, something with big guns that could stop an invasion cold if produced in sufficient numbers.

The 60 ton Manticores MIGHT fit this bill, but they lack short range "get out of here or die" punch.  For that, the two upper class autocannons are much better.  Of course, there will always be room for a Manticore's particle cannon in any well rounded army.  ;)

Now based on canon, the Taurians really hardly use any tank above 70 tons.  Anything larger than that is very rare.  So if we are looking at a new design for the Taurians to build to stop the inevitable Davion invasion cold, it is going to be somewhere in the range of 60 to 70 tons.  Better or equal to the Manticore, cheap to build, good mobility, good firepower.  Built by the lance, they can kill allot of stuff.  :)

Beyond that, a good MBT needs to keep up with the main battleline, suggesting a minimum speed of 4-6 based on the speed of the basic Taurian trooper (Thunderbolt) and "assault" heavy BattleMechs like the Warhammer.

Based on all of that, the most wished design would be in the 60 to 70 ton range, move 4-6 or maybe 5-8, and have a PPC,  AC10, or AC20 as its main weapon.  Extra room would go to filler weapons like machine guns or missiles.

The reason I pick those three weapons as main MBT weapons is because they are the only three weapons up until the 3050s that the TC has ready access to that do 10 or more points of concentrated damage.  We can live with something that does 5 points on a skirmisher or an LBT like the Vedette, but for a true MBT of an interstellar nation you NEED heavier concentrated damage.  And those are the only three weapons that really fit that bill.

So that covers the weapons that you would want on an MBT.  What about the engines?  Well, if you are thinking ICE, honestly you just say they build it.  It's literally not rocket science to build an ICE engine and anybody can do it.  ;)  If you are thinking a fusion powered vehicle, things get more interesting.  In 3055, the Taurian Concordat builds four engines that can conceivably fit in a 60, 65, or 70 ton chassis.  The 180 and 300 give a 60 tonner the ability to move 3-5 or 5-8.  A 5-8 60 tonner could be all kinds of cool.  :)  There is no 240 engine in 3055 that could make it move 4-6.  The TC also builds 260 and 280 engines that can make 65 and 70 ton vehicles move 4-6.

Whether or not they COULD build the 240 engine is going to depend on a number of issues.  They build engines a little bit weaker and a little bit more powerful, so they COULD tweak one of those.  But until the 3050s, the fusion engines are really going to be complicated enough that tweaking one is NOT going to be fun.  Until the 3050s, I'm not going to consider that a possibility unless someone can find a canon source that says they did something like this.  So let us go onto the question of whether they built the Manticore at Perdition before they started building the "Not a Rommel" there.  As fusion capable factories do not get built out of nothing in the 3020s, it would make sense that they would have built another fusion-powered MBT there, and of any fusion powered MBT in the universe in the 3020s, the Manticore is the one that would be most likely for them to build due to their pseudo alliance at the time with the Magistracy.  This is of course supposition though, and IF they built them in the past, they stopped building the 240 by the 3050s since there was no use for it.  Of course, by the 3050s, the TC and Magistracy were involved in a TRUE alliance, and they were building new fusion-capable factories, so in the 3050s it would be easily acceptable and in tune with their capabilities for them to build a NEW line of 240 fusion engines then.

Having said all of that, my basic engineering proposal concerning what they would want goes to the following ideas:
Tonnage:  60, 65, or 70.
Speed:  3-5 (too slow really, but it brings interesting enough possibilities the TC would not throw such a design out without looking at other abilities), 4-6, or 5-8.
Main Gun: PPC, AC10, or AC20
Secondary Weapons: Medium Lasers if using fusion engine, Missiles (preferably LRMs for range, but SRMs for street clearing would be interesting), and machine guns.

Any combination of those capabilities would make a very good MBT, except the 3-5 movement.  That is really too slow, but if a company brought a design in at that speed that had some REALLY amazing capabilities to make up for that speed, the TC might be willing to gulp the slow speed down and accept it.

[Stormcrow]

I've designed based on MP's previous post. I went the maximum weight (70t) and 4/6 movement. To make it work I went with a fusion power. The three designs can be found HERE. The only piece of advanced equipment are Pinard Reaper Streak SRM-2s (found all designs in varying quantities). Each tank carries 12 tons of armor which is pretty coverage for a tank.

[tomaddamz]

I see a lot of similar ideas here...lets challenge the Status quo

Many of these vehicles seem to try to cover every technical point by themselves...what if they didn't?  Think teamwork here.

Remember a Taurian lance is 6 units, not 4.  Maybe some specialization here?

Just saying, carry on

And now...some music....

[XaosGorilla]

        Well, thinking about it, all of the Taurian battlemechs and about half of Taurian armor (mostly the larger, more expensive half) seem to be designed around a long range or general purpose concept.  On top of that, most of the close in machines are considered "throw away" units.   Plus, even though Mad Tommy is screaming "The Davions are coming! The Davions are coming!" at the top of his lungs I'm not sure the Excequer is going to release the funds, particularly while the Ministry of Defense is up to its ears in complaints from the outer worlds about the lack of Mech support to help the garrisons deal with raiders.  So what I do see getting through the political morass is a general purpose design, something that can fill in for battlemechs in a garrison unit, be cheap enough to be produced in the quantity needed to fill the gaps, while having enough firepower and toughness to convince Tommy that it could actually slow down/stop the Davions.  So, yeah, it just has to do everything.
     Now this means a main gun with power and reach is needed, as much as I love the Big ole AC/20, it is just too heavy to be made fast enough on a tracked chassis to be able to handle both anti-pirate duties in addition to poking holes in large (Davion) mechs.  That is correct, I am advocating a gun smaller than an AC/20.... :'(
     The heavy combat requirements force the design options away from the hovercraft (specifically the highly vulnerable skirts). 
      As my PPC's and Fusion engines are too expensive to be placed in considerably more delicate tanks (in comparison to battlemechs) that's not really an option either...
      That leaves us with only one good option, the trusty AC/10.  But, is just an AC/10 gonna be enough? Probably not, the best anti battlemech units combine some hole poking weapons with some armor abrading weapons. So some sort of cluster weapon augmentation is necessary.  The only thing with the reach, an LRM, but then some SRM's are needed for close in splatter.  So there you have it, an AC/10 some LRM's and SRM's to round out/augment the main guns' firepower.  Oh, and you better put at least one machine gun on the darn thing or infantry will beat the poor tank to death. 
       Looks like I have a design concept, AC/10+LRM+SRM+an MG, on a cheap well armored chassis.....   Not asking much......   would you like the Cameron throne with that as well? (yes please!)
 
      As an aside about Mad Tommy, after watching Hanse pull the wool over the CapCons' eyes, I'm not so sure he wasn't trying to do the same thing to the Taurians.   It worked once after all.....
Also, it needs to be kept in mind that an individual who is paranoid, CAN STILL have opponents who ACTUALLY are out to get the paranoid individual.  The two are NOT mutually exclusive....

      Just a thought...  ;D



 P.S. posted 2 designs based on the same concept in the fan design forum...

[Stormfury]

We now have an official answer.

Neither the Rommel itself nor a clone thereof is made in the Concordat. So far as current canon published material goes, the Manticore and Po are not and have not been manufactured in the Concordat, either.

[BrokenMnemonic]

I'm not sure how pertinent this is to the question at hand, and I'm gaining a new appreciation for the idea of "FASAnomics" after reading around here,  but I'm curious as to whether there's ever been a statement on the number of production units for armoured vehicles that need to be ordered to make it financially viable for a company to design and build a new vehicle?

If the Concordat don't have a defined MBT already listed somewhere in the canon sources, perhaps it's because it's simply more economic for the Concordat government/planetary governments to buy in vehicles from elsewhere than it is to go through the time and expense of designing and manufacturing a new vehicle.

I'm very conscious that this is probably stepping into already well-trodden grounds regarding the economic unfeasibility of pretty much everything to do with weapons and armament manufacture in BattleTech, but it does strike me that this could be the simplest answer to the question of whether the Concordat need to build an MBT at all, rather than what they're building.

[Colt Ward]

Well Broken, military spending is not especially economic viable.  However, as a IRL example I point you to the F-22 production costs (as well as the stealth birds) where the R&D costs were split between each bird the company was going to make . . . so when the Feds reneged on some of the purchases it hurt the companies because the planned R&D costs were not absorbed into the purchases . . . which also accounts for the per unit prices going down the more units the Feds bought or allowed sales outside the States of.

Now for the Taurian MBT . . . I am sorry, but generally why not just clone the Po?  It matches most of what everyone is looking for.  I would even say you could make 2 versions . . . the Po Tank Destroyer, 3/5 with your AC/20 & LRMs but no turret as well as the standard-ish Po replacing a bit of armor and an MG or two for some LRM power.  As the Taurians are reported to have stolen and used designs in the past, this is within their normal behaviors.  The Po Tank Destroyer would use many of the same parts as the regular Po, except the engine and main gun, which helps logistically.  Their similarity in looks would help cause enemy confusion on the battlefield, as well as giving Davions (who likely have faced Cappie Po's) and underestimation of their long range reach.

Btw, do we know who made the Po II?

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Btw, do we know who made the Po II?

The Capellans. Ceres Metals Industries-St Ives

[Colt Ward]

Figured, but the ones I saw came in all sorts of national colors.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The Dark Age versions? A lot of factions may have Po IIs, but the Capellans are currently the only producers of the tank