So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?

[Stormfury]

Actually, the Taurian Concordat can't build Ferro-Fibrous until 3045 (Mercenaries Supplemental II, p. 88) and didn't figure it out on their own (p. 169, FM: P).

The local militia/Noble units are not expected to do much other than discourage banditry. They are a defensive, reactionary force, so slower. older vehicles would be the norm; the good stuff would be in the hands of the TDF.

Although it's not a tank, H: MPS does provide additional Conventional Fighters for two states. Though neither is the Concordat, I suspect such forces would be valued for defensive purposes- get enough of them and you can have a crack at AeroSpace Fighters, and they make a good rapid-response element to boot.

[Liam's Ghost]

The Taurians do build the Bat Hawk conventional fighter, which is a pretty nice bird.

[tomaddamz]

The local militia/Noble units are not expected to do much other than discourage banditry. They are a defensive, reactionary force, so slower. older vehicles would be the norm; the good stuff would be in the hands of the TDF.

I am not sure I would buy this as fact;  for one you seemingly contradict yourself.  If TDF Local Militiaâ„¢ are defensive/reactionary then two qualities are needed...

1).  Ability to resist a direct attack from qualitatively equivalent or superior force for a defined period of time.  Firepower and tenacity are qualities we look for here

2).  The ability to fall upon elements of said opposing force, specifically LOCs' and logistical units.  Speed and surprise are the qualities we look for here.


Most excellent work Stormfury, we have begun to define a doctrine.  It kinda looks like U.S. armor doctrine circa 1940.

Although it's not a tank, H: MPS does provide additional Conventional Fighters for two states. Though neither is the Concordat, I suspect such forces would be valued for defensive purposes- get enough of them and you can have a crack at AeroSpace Fighters, and they make a good rapid-response element to boot.

  Conventional fighters are most useful in the reaction type operations, especially against soft targets.  Artillery and FASCAM/Thunder would also be most useful here. 

I am going to meditate on this for a little while...Accepting this as doctrine, now I have to think what unit compositions can achieve these goals, ideally they should not be imported at all as these are militia and cheap.

Have a go at what a decent unit would look like.  I'd imagine there would be two types here, a defensive one, and a reactive one. 

Call me out if you think I am wrong here.

[Stormfury]

I am not sure I would buy this as fact;  for one you seemingly contradict yourself.  If TDF Local Militiaâ„¢ are defensive/reactionary then two qualities are needed...

Not really.

If you have some kind of second-string/militia/noble unit around (in place of or in addition to the TDF proper) it makes potential raiders think a bit harder about if or how they want to hit that world. The basic idea is to make attacking the world look like a bad bet without investing to the detriment of other economic or military endevours.

Since they are not going to be deployed off-world unless there is a crisis of unimaginable proportions, they will be most commonly stationed at the kinds of locales raiders are expected to target- military factories, water purification plants, and so on. 

As a result, they will not need to be equipped with the fastest vehicles. And since the TDF proper has priority for the new, good stuff they will be equipped with hand-me-downs, salvage, and the like.

Net result is that there will be some kind of recon vehicles (wheeled or hover) to keep tabs on the enemy, plus the anvil of Vedettes and LRM carriers, with APCs to ferry infantry units around.

As far as artillery support goes, the Concordat is really looking more at the tube artillery than FASCAM or Arrows. They only got Arrows in '65, and their access to Thunder rounds is going to be similarly limited.

Minefields would be the more conventional sort.

[Liam's Ghost]

Mobility and irregulars. The two major wars that the Taurians have fought in their history (against the Capellans and the Star League) have more than likely hammered home the point that in a major conflict, whatever they can put into the field, the other side is going to put way more out there than they can handle (also it taught the Taurians that the other side will cheat regardless of what they say).

The Taurian defense forces basically have two things they're supposed to do.
1) Hurt bandits sufficiently that they exceed their own risk/reward equation.
2) Hold back the Apocalypse.

Even if the TDF was building main battle tanks, it couldn't be building enough to actually hold back a determined assault from an enemy a hundred times their size. They learned that lesson five hundred years ago when their industrial capacity was vastly above what it is now. Mechs, fast armor, and a tradition of a massive army of irregulars, says planning for what comes after the so called "main event" is already lost.

[XaosGorilla]

       The locals are by definition, already there.  I'd expect that the local forces would be the first on the scene.  It doesn't strike me as unreasonable that the local government would be heavily involved in the creation and funding of a planetary defense garrison, although additional funding from the interplanetary (federal) government would(or should) be available. 
       As most mech forces are federally funded/operated(I'm reluctant to say that NO planets have ANY mechs available), they would be held at a position from which those same mechs would be able to respond to a threat on one of any number of planets.  This would mean that any short term action (like a pirate raid) would have to be defended by the Planetary Defense Garrison or PDG (I don't want to characterize a local military as a "militia" when it may in fact be a full time professional military.)  In a long term action the PDG would most likely be expected to hold out until the (federal) mech forces arrive...  The nature of war being what it is, it's likely that any remaining planetary forces will continue to be used to defend the planet even after the interplanetary forces arrive.
       I suppose this is a good spot for the definition of long and short term actions.   :-[ Thinking about it, that may well be defined by the median or maximum response times of the mech forces.  You wouldn't believe just how much stuff i just typed and then deleted.....  /facepalm.
        Looking at the above, I'm of the mind that these thing hold true for any PDG anywhere.   Given the Taurian strategy often being described as "pushing the cost of victory for an opponent up to the point where its not worth the effort", there is a non-conventional tactic/strategy (NOT Nukes) that should be pointed out.   Asymmetric warfare is essentially letting an opponent (who is going to win anyway) do so, and then bogging down as many troops, machines, materials as is one can to prevent them from being used to continue the opponents attack.  To represent/develop this capability a platoon to company force (most likely federal) may well be stationed on or part of any and every garrison.  (not really relevant to a tank force tho).
            My 2 cents.

[Medron Pryde]

So what do we know with certainty from the above?  We know that the TC as of 3040 can make Ferro-Fibrous armor, and they get better with time;  we know that Streak SRM tech is perfected and that we have a jump jet that will do me no good on a tank.  How is this addressing our base premise?

Mechs in the TC as I understand are Federal Forces©, Vehicles are either Federal or Local Militiaâ„¢.  My question is are Local Militiaâ„¢ expected to operate without Federal support?  What is the Local Militia® battlefield role, what are they expected to accomplish?

The TC recovered FF armor in the early 3040s, not 3040.  ;)

Also, the main 'Mech forces are federal.  AKA what we have seen detailed in the sourcebooks and the Field Manual.  Most of those 'Mech forces do not have permanent vehicle or infantry attached.  Except the previously mentioned Taurian Lancers were use vehicles as their main hitting power and where the 'Mech support the vehicles.  :)

Finally, all planets (except one deep in the Hell's Heart that is specifically noted as having no military at all) have major vehicle and infantry formations as part of their permanent plan to both secure the world and to work with any federal force that comes to help them.  Some of the named forces detailed are the Concordat Constables (which makes them pseudo-federal hehehe), some of them are Noble Regiments (which are very NON-federal).  I would assume that, like everywhere else in the Human Sphere, the planets would also have SOME 'Mechs on hand as well.  Based on the size of the TDF in general and the way of the universe works in general, I would think that any planetary 'Mech force would be between a lance and a company.  And I would assume that the corporations on the factory worlds would have corporate security forces as well, most likely fielding units that the corporation in question builds.  ;)

As for the basic doctrine of the forces in question...let me see here.  A LOT of the vehicle forces are going to be cheap, ICE vehicles.  They are tweaked to run on the world they are on and never leave that world, so they don't need fusion.  And since they don't worry about fast unloading in a combat environment, they would be happy to have large numbers of smaller vehicles.  ICE APCs like the Maultier and the "noname" APCs would be very common and attached to the infantry units.  The Maultier would be rare in the early 3020s when it first started production, but by the Fourth Succession War it was far more common, and of course it gets the FF upgrade in the early 3040s, and the Streak "upgrade" in early 3054.  Combat units would be made up heavily of Vedettes, LRM and SRM Carriers, Plainsmen, and the like.  Lances of J. Edgars, Hunters, and Rommels or Manticores or some MBT would be seen as well, acting as the anchor of the local vehicle force.  The command and scouting forces.  Also, after 3056, you would start to see some Fulcrums, but the vast majority of those not sold on the Mercenary or House Markets would go to either the Taurian Lancers or to some of the richer worlds' local forces.  There would not be many of them on the random outer periphery border worlds.  ;)

The Taurian Lancer regiments and the major factory worlds would have far more fusion vehicle designs.  J. Edgars, Rommels(Manticores or other MBTs), Fulcrums in later years, Hunters and such would be the norm there, with ICE forces rare in the Lancer regiments.

Doctrine would be using fast hovercraft and such to flank the enemy while missile launchers hide in wait and Vedettes and Rommels and such do the main fighting.  Built up forts would almost always have missile launchers to support the other units defending, hiding behind walls and such and doing indirect fire on the approaching enemy.  And those will SERIOUSLY mess up ANYBODY's day.  ;)

[tomaddamz]

Put up a poll, I am still thinking about my position here.

Tell me what you think.....please.

[wookiebear]

reading to catch up on the thoughts in this string (by the way, a lot of good information from all )

With the cannon status of the TDF/TC as a force that makes attackers pay heavily for every gain, perhaps their doctrine would follow a more defense-in-depth approach. With this in mind there might be established static hard points at tactically important targets, supported by more mobile units in a hammer/anvil type doctrine for on planet militia/military and the noble units.

This would allow the lighter units to be effectively used to flank and harass larger units in the field as well as being utilized in asynchronous warfare against the logistics of the attackers. It would also help explain the relative lack of a Taurian produced MBT as a vehicular asset in canon to date, allowing the static hard points to fulfill this role of holding the enemy at bay while the mobile units whittle away at their forces. It would be more of a defensive stance, but the TC is known as hard nut to crack, not as a major invasive force.

This does not mean there is not a need for a MBT, but may explain why there is not one that the TC has developed in house.  This type of doctrine and force composition would also dissuade many non major house forces from attacking targets in Concordat space in the first place, which matches some of the descriptions in cannon sources. One major disadvantage of this doctrine is that a truly overwhelming force would be able to overcome the static defenses and take the objective, but not before they take some damage in the process, which also matches cannon.

From this as a base of understanding,  the establishment of a TC created MBT would be an evolution of current doctrine rather than a retcon of the information we currently have.  The role of this vehicle would be in support of the static defenses and as an increase in mobile firepower when the forces move to an offensive rather than defensive stance, such as when the 'Mech forces arrive on planet

I think this would fit into the "historical" aspects of the Taurian Concordat as well as fit what we currently know of their capabilities for production and deployment in the source books as well as an explanation for the development of the Lancer units in the TC

wookie

[XaosGorilla]

      I guess it comes down to to whether you think that similar situations breed similar solutions.   Every major power borders 2 other successor states and has an outer (periphery) border.  So also do the Taurians.   Every major power has to deal with pirate raids on its periphery border.  The Taurians are well noted to have a pirate problem.  Every major power has to deal with raids from neighboring powers.  The Taurians are no different in this either(whether those raiders are Capellan or FedSun).  By 3000, every major power has a shortage of battlemechs.  I have seen no references to indicate that the Taurians have more battlemechs than they know what to do with.  Every major power that has chosen to defend on the ground, like the Taurians, has, in order to address the battlemech shortage, turned to the MBT as the alternative.   
      So why do the Taurians not have an MBT?  Thinking about it, the Taurians should have already been producing some form of MBT before any successor state.  The reasoning being that with a smaller economy, fewer resources, and having to deal with pirates sooner than powers closer to the core, the need for a cheaper, more easily produced alternative to a battlemech should have come up sooner rather than later. 
       Looking at the problem from an economic standpoint, the MBT may well still be a better choice than the alternatives.  A 3025 era locust still costs around 1.51 million c-bills, or 6.05 million per lance.  Kit recommended an LRM + SRM carrier combo (specifically a heavy LRM crawler carrier, the SRM carrier wasn't specified) but that isn't cheap either.  The standard LRM carrier runs 1.87mil c-bills, the heavy 2.94mil, the SRM carrier costs 1.93mil and the light model 0.84mil.  So a 3 LRM carrier + 1 Light SRM carrier in a lance = 6.45mil per lance.  The Exael MBT in the fan design forums costs 1.34 mill each, or 5.36 mill per lance.  Seems to me that making a proper MBT would be cheaper than battlemechs or missile carriers, more effective than missile carriers, and would survive better than missile carriers placed in the same role.  Wookiebear advocated static defenses, which is an excellent idea, but is very limited in scope.  The biggest problem is that static defenses are well, static. This gives attackers an easy target (4 point bonus to TN) whose only option for survival is additional armor.  Problem there is that no matter how well protected a fortification becomes, the opponent can always leave, and come back with a bigger gun.  Or they can go around the fortification, or even blind the fortification with say, smoke, and just walk on by...  When a few battlemechs with a couple tons of smoke LRM ammo can nullify the backbone of a defense it makes me question how good this defense really is, and how I can make it effective, and I haven't even done a cost analysis...  The alternative, you guessed it, an MBT that can move out of the smoke.
       In the early publications, the Taurians were thought to be producing the Rommel.  That information stood as canon until specifically corrected.  However, this meant that the Taurians did have an MBT as part of their original defensive plan.  Later, when the Rommel was removed from the Taurian force lists, it left a gap that no other Taurian vehicle has been able to fill, resulting in a devolution in tactics as the Taurians have been pigeon holed into more expensive, less effective alternatives.  Do not take this as an effort to allow Taurian production of the Rommel/Patton.  It has been stated over and over that they do not, I understand that.  However, there is a big difference between "The Taurians do not produce the Rommel/Patton" and "The Taurians do not produce ANY main battle tank(s) whatsoever."  This brings me (finally) to the question asked by the poll.
       I think the Taurians have a pair of successor states on their border, either of which would be quite happy with some extra battlemech production lines and the materials to operate them.  I think the Taurians have a pirate problem that needs the kind of attention that a big weapon, inflicting high single impact damage to a light/medium battlemech would do wonders for.  I think the Taurians have a need for a vehicle tough enough to take hits, powerful enough to dish it out, and flexible enough to work with whatever forces are available, against whatever opponents show up.   
       In short, I think the Taurians need a main battle tank.
 

[wookiebear]

yup, could not agree more  :)

Rereading my last post in this thread I can see where it may seem I was advocating a lack of need for a MBT in the Taurian TOE. That is not what I meant at all.

I guess what I was attempting to do was set forth an explanation wherein the current cannon regarding Taurian lack of an MBT can be meshed with the "reality" of the need for this unit within the Taurian tactical and strategic arsenals. A philosophy of defense in depth with some static defenses would allow lighter units to make up a bulk of available forces (ie quantity has a quality all its own) and still be relatively effective in a majority of situations, just with fairly major strategic weaknesses as pointed out by XaosGorilla. I do believe that the Taurians have to have a MBT of their own, whether it be one they have designed themselves or one they have licensed from another state.

One preference for design of a home built battle tank might be a base hull, powered by ICE, that has good armor for endurance, some point defenses to face infantry attack and with adequate speed. This base hull could be equipped with turret mounted weaponry that would allow it to have multiple configurations. It would raise the base cost, but allow one basic design to have multiple configurations to meet the needs of the varying deployment scenarios it would face depending on whether it was assigned to a Line unit, local militia/military or a noble forces unit.

Another design preference is for a more multi purpose MBT along the lines of the Patton/Rommel/Axel tank that can do both close in fighting and strike from distance, just not as well as a single purpose design.

Any design would have to fit within the construction and design limitations set forth in cannon, but there are many already written up in various sources that fit this requirement and are well within the capabilities of the TC to construct and support. Now it is just a matter of finding the one that fits the tactical doctrine and needs of the Taurian Concordat.

The tactical doctrine of the Taurian Concordat should drive the choice or creation of design that fits within the TOE of the TDF

My thoughts, worth exactly what you all paid  ;D

wookie

[tomaddamz]

Ok...still thinking here...

I have heard a lot from people making the case that there is a need for a "Real MBTâ„¢", I am not hearing anything from people that believe that acquisition is more than sufficient, or maybe some variation is needed?  We know you are out there, we see you voting. 

Make your voice heard,  Tell us what you are thinking.

And remember kids...make sure to vote early and often...and have your dead relatives vote for me too ... :))

[BrokenMnemonic]

I'm conscious that I'm very much the new guy to these forums, so I've mainly been reading around rather than joining in, but as the question's been asked about acquisition and hull variation, and as I voted for hull variation, I thought I should probably explain why.

I don't own all of the books on the Periphery, so I doubt I'm completely up to speed. I do own the first two editions of The Periphery, and the Periphery Field Manual though, and while the original edition of the Periphery doesn't go into much of any detail regarding armour assets, the Field Manual indicates that at that point, the Concordat TDF employs armoured vehicles ranging from light to heavy weight class, with a preference for hovercraft-equipped vehicles, and that tanks greater than seventy tons in weight are very rare and likely to be found in garrison on heavily populated worlds. I'm wary of extrapolating that backwards, but I don't see a strong case for making a native MBT, for several reasons:

- supportability: I think it'd be more likely to see variants on an existing chassis/hull than an increase in the range of vehicles produced. It's easier to stockpile spares and train on similar vehicles

- doctrine: FM:P also states that when Mech's are on the field, crews are expected to save their own vehicles if it means saving a 'Mech. That sacrifical element doesn't imply to me that the manufacture high-end vehicles is a huge priority, even if high-end doesn't mean as high-tech as 'Mechs.

- resources: given the attitude towards invaders described in the three books I own, and the tactics used against them, it seems more logical to me that the approach to fighting MBTs would involve cranking out large quantities of man-portable SRMs or an equivalent, arming the TDF, militias and volunteers with them in bulk, and swamping enemy vehicles with low level attacks. It worked well against vehicles in Western Europe when the Wehrmacht were equipped in bulk with Panzerfausts, and you can turn out a lot of SRM tubes for the cost of developing and building a new MBT in any quantity.

- foreign reaction: scaling up to build a new heavy armour design, particularly a fusion-driven one, isn't just a big effort, but it's the sort of thing that attracts attention. What one nation declares is a simple self-defence measure is taken by a neighbour to be provocation and antagonistic militarization. I think surrounding states are less likely to be as twitchy about variants on an existing design, because familiar designs feel "safer" - for a given value of safe - and it's often easier to hide an increase in numbers than an increase in designs.

Using hull variants and buying in small or moderate quantities of specialised vehicles feels like the more realistic option to me. The fact that heavier vehicles tend to be found on more populated (and presumably, more prosperous) worlds feels to me like a reflection of greater buying power as much as greater potential industry.

[tomaddamz]

 BrokenMnemonic;

That is probably one of the most lucid posts I have seen on the internet, do not be embarrassed at all by it.  ( and actually, what I am looking for in this whole topic, a clear perception and understanding; rational and sane).

I do not think anyone here could pillory you for the content of your post.

Thank you.

[XaosGorilla]

      I'd like to point out that my previous post was an opinion piece.  As an opinion piece, it is a piece of writing with an intent.  Any toes that I may have stepped on (kit, wookie) was not intended as a personal attack.  I actually appreciate different viewpoints, they help me better analyze my own position.  So if I offended anyone, you have my apologies, that wasn't the plan.

      BrokenMnemonic: I also would like to thank you for your insights, particularly on foreign reaction.  Although I had considered the value to the Taurians of looking more powerful than they are, I had overlooked the value of doing things on the QT. So, Thanks!

[wookiebear]

      I'd like to point out that my previous post was an opinion piece.  As an opinion piece, it is a piece of writing with an intent.  Any toes that I may have stepped on (kit, wookie)

Nope, no toes and no worries.   ;)

I just noticed when I re-read my post that it could be interpreted as not saying what I thought it was saying, so I tried to clarify it a bit

I did actually appreciate what you said and in fact all the other opinions that have been presented. Makes it fun to discuss. If everyone agreed it would be one big echo chamber with a lot of noise and less information

wookie

[Medron Pryde]

Well, the issue here is not figuring out new Taurian MBT construction in the 3060s when they actually have daily (or so) contact with the Inner Sphere and foreign governments know a lot about them.

We are talking about what they are building from the 3020s on when contact between the Periphery and the Inner Sphere was the next best thing to nonexistent, or what they were building before the Rommel was a gleam in mommy Steiner's eye.  Building a brand spanking new factory in the 3020s is...NOT easy.  In fact, are ALLOT of resources that talk about a new design being built, and note the factory that builds them being refitted to do it.  Until the late 3050s or 3060s at least.  Which strongly suggests to me at least that the factory that ComStar noted as building the Rommel was an active factory.  So what did it build before the Rommel came around?

I posit that it was an MBT.  Perhaps it was the Manticore.  If you look at the Periphery, they share construction of a LOT of designs due to their long alliance against the evil overlords, so if I was going to consider a canon MBT for the Taurians to build before the Rommel came around, one that they had been building for a rather long time, one that anchored their main battlelines, the Manticore would be at the top of my list.

[sillybrit]

Or, instead of trying to add non-canon capabilties to your faction's military industry, just accept that they didn't have a homebuilt MBT. While as players we might like the capabilities of the heavier vehicles we commonly refer to as MBTs, and so consider them a reasonable and logical addition to a faction's military and production capabilties, factions don't always follow our own personal beliefs and there's also plenty of examples in BattleTech where reason and logic apparently don't apply.

In addition, FM:Per notes that the TDF prefers hovercraft, which is a further strong indicator that they likely see little need for homegrown MBT capability, and that what little need they do have in their heavier armor units can be easily handled by imports and salvage.

As for the idea that ComStar mistook another MBT production line for the false Rommel line, they could have just as easily received reports of Rommels at Pinard's factory and assumed they were being built there, when in fact they were simply in for low-level maintenance, of the sort that could be handled at any factory. Or maybe the ComStar agent was even more incompetent/lazy/uncaring and upon hearing of Rommels operating within the TC, simply plucked the name of a TC armor factory from his/her... umm, hat - in this case, Pinard - and reported that as the manufacturer, without spending any effort or time investigating. The lack of this suggested MBT line in later years (sourcebooks) further leans against the idea of the false Rommel line simply being replaced by another MBT.

Obviously, what you do at your own tables is a different matter.

[Stormfury]

Which strongly suggests to me at least that the factory that ComStar noted as building the Rommel was an active factory.  So what did it build before the Rommel came around?

I posit that it was an MBT.  Perhaps it was the Manticore.  If you look at the Periphery, they share construction of a LOT of designs due to their long alliance against the evil overlords, so if I was going to consider a canon MBT for the Taurians to build before the Rommel came around, one that they had been building for a rather long time, one that anchored their main battlelines, the Manticore would be at the top of my list.

The factories on Perdition produce the Vedette, J. Edgar, and Fulcrum. It says so right on p. 119 of H: MPS, as noted earlier in this thread.

The "MBT" it is producing is the Vedette. The Vedette played that role for all of the Great Houses until the introduction of new designs in and after the Fourth Succession War.

It was never producing anything else.

Or, instead of trying to add non-canon capabilties to your faction's military industry, just accept that they didn't have a homebuilt MBT.

[applause]

[Medron Pryde]

The lack of this suggested MBT line in later years (sourcebooks) further leans against the idea of the false Rommel line simply being replaced by another MBT.

Actually, the original Periphery SB is not the only source for the Rommel.  Objective Raids as an example was printed in 3055, long after ComStar had taken up a more active relationship in the affairs of the Periphery and would be far more likely to know what was going on.  And Word of Blake's FM:P also talks about Rommel/Pattons and Pos being built on at least a dozen worlds in the Periphery.  Only a single document by some Interstellar Press or somesuch says that such production is not made, at the single place where any other source says it is, and we all know how trustworthy the press is.  ;)  Especially compared to somebody with the reach of ComStar or Word of Blake's ROM.  ;)

In addition, FM:Per notes that the TDF prefers hovercraft, which is a further strong indicator that they likely see little need for homegrown MBT capability, and that what little need they do have in their heavier armor units can be easily handled by imports and salvage.

At that time it was commonly known that the Periphery built the Rommel/Patton and the Po on "at least a dozen worlds" according to that Word of Blake report.
Page 15, Armored Forces section, second paragraph.
"Classic Designs like the Rommel/Patton and the Po have been copied and built on at least a dozen worlds, with many other new designs seeing use throughout the Periphery."

Still, the idea that they would use the hovercraft allot is actually very understandable.  They built the Fulcrum, J. Edgar, Maultier, and Plainsman at the time.  With four such good hovercraft to work with, you would be an utter idiot not to make heavy use of them.  :)  That does not say in any way they do not use MBTs.  Only that they make heavy use of their very good hovercraft.  ;)

Or, instead of trying to add non-canon capabilties to your faction's military industry, just accept that they didn't have a homebuilt MBT.

I'm not adding ANY non-canon capabilities to any faction.  It is canon that MBTs have been copied and built on at least a dozen worlds in the Periphery.  One news organization disagrees with ComStar and WOB ROM that Perdition was one of those locations.  I think it is far more logical to consider that, even if the newsies are right and Perdition is not one of those locations, at least one of those locations would be in the Taurian Concordat.  And IF the newsies are right and Perdition does NOT build the Rommel/Patton, I think it is the epitome of following canon to wonder what it was that it DID build that caused two generations of ComStar operatives to say it built the Rommel there.

[tomaddamz]

The "MBT" it is producing is the Vedette. The Vedette played that role for all of the Great Houses until the introduction of new designs in and after the Fourth Succession War.

[applause]

Calling the Vedette an MBT is like calling the BMP-3 or the M551 an MBT, it is a tracked cavalry scout at best.  If you use either any of these vehicles like an MBT you will have multitudes of mangled machines and maimed and murdered subordinates.  It would be criminal to use this vehicle in this role.

[tomaddamz]

At that time it was commonly known that the Periphery built the Rommel/Patton and the Po on "at least a dozen worlds" according to that Word of Blake report.
Page 15, Armored Forces section, second paragraph.
"Classic Designs like the Rommel/Patton and the Po have been copied and built on at least a dozen worlds, with many other new designs seeing use throughout the Periphery."

Where in the Taurian Concordat specifically are these vehicles being produced?  Please cite canon.   Were this the Outworlds Alliance, or the Magistracy of Canopus there would be no doubt, however we are not discussing either of these entities.

Still, the idea that they would use the hovercraft allot is actually very understandable.  They built the Fulcrum, J. Edgar, Maultier, and Plainsman at the time.  With four such good hovercraft to work with, you would be an utter idiot not to make heavy use of them.  :)  That does not say in any way they do not use MBTs.  Only that they make heavy use of their very good hovercraft.  ;)

While they are all very good units, only one is really going to slow me down, and that is the Fulcrum, it also has the virtue of being ridiculously expensive.  Not a great solution to be fielded en masse

I'm not adding ANY non-canon capabilities to any faction.  It is canon that MBTs have been copied and built on at least a dozen worlds in the Periphery.  One news organization disagrees with ComStar and WOB ROM that Perdition was one of those locations.  I think it is far more logical to consider that, even if the newsies are right and Perdition is not one of those locations, at least one of those locations would be in the Taurian Concordat.  And IF the newsies are right and Perdition does NOT build the Rommel/Patton, I think it is the epitome of following canon to wonder what it was that it DID build that caused two generations of ComStar operatives to say it built the Rommel there.

While it may be canon that various MBTs have been copied, it is not canon that the Taurian Concordat has copied any of them.  Tragically, logic being a concept that I appreciate greatly, has absolutely nothing to do with BattleTech.  That being said, I think the answer of the current crop of MBT being built (Po, Patton, Rommel) is a definitive no, they are not copied in the Taurian Concordat. 

[jeyar]

Where in the Taurian Concordat specifically are these vehicles being produced?  Please cite canon.   Were this the Outworlds Alliance, or the Magistracy of Canopus there would be no doubt, however we are not discussing either of these entities.

You know - for any other faction, we'd pretty much be saying "yeah, they build it. Doesn't need to make sense, doesn't need to be justified, it's just a game."

[tomaddamz]

You know - for any other faction, we'd pretty much be saying "yeah, they build it. Doesn't need to make sense, doesn't need to be justified, it's just a game."

And Camelot was just a model... ;D

Maybe I am a bit harsh.  I just have trouble accepting the "let's just give them something" sort of mentality;  it's not always a good fit.  To be fair to the Concordat, and indeed every faction out there that grapples with these questions, what you build here does not exist in a vacuum; it has to work in a larger sense with other vehicles... or at least you should be able to make the case for it.

Not to sound too harsh, but just giving them a unit is intellectually lazy.  Sure you may come to the same or functionally similar vehicle at the end of the day, conversely you may come to a different conclusion.  Without taking that journey you will not know.

[Stormfury]

Actually, the original Periphery SB is not the only source for the Rommel.  Objective Raids as an example was printed in 3055, long after ComStar had taken up a more active relationship in the affairs of the Periphery and would be far more likely to know what was going on.  And Word of Blake's FM:P also talks about Rommel/Pattons and Pos being built on at least a dozen worlds in the Periphery.  Only a single document by some Interstellar Press or somesuch says that such production is not made, at the single place where any other source says it is, and we all know how trustworthy the press is.    Especially compared to somebody with the reach of ComStar or Word of Blake's ROM.

We now have an official answer.

The Rommel is not and has never been produced in the Concordat. Objective Raids and First Periphery are in error. I'm not aware of any PDF version of H:MPS that claims otherwise. Everything I'd consider an official, accepted and used canon source aligns with this statement.

I'm not adding ANY non-canon capabilities to any faction.  It is canon that MBTs have been copied and built on at least a dozen worlds in the Periphery.  One news organization disagrees with ComStar and WOB ROM that Perdition was one of those locations.  I think it is far more logical to consider that, even if the newsies are right and Perdition is not one of those locations, at least one of those locations would be in the Taurian Concordat.  And IF the newsies are right and Perdition does NOT build the Rommel/Patton, I think it is the epitome of following canon to wonder what it was that it DID build that caused two generations of ComStar operatives to say it built the Rommel there.

We know what it was. Check your copy of TR: 3039, or just read the relevant section thereof I posted earlier.

Despite your claims to the contrary, your unpublished (and for everyone else, unverifiable) material is not canon and does not superceede it.

Calling the Vedette an MBT is like calling the BMP-3 or the M551 an MBT, it is a tracked cavalry scout at best.  If you use either any of these vehicles like an MBT you will have multitudes of mangled machines and maimed and murdered subordinates.  It would be criminal to use this vehicle in this role.

And when the opposition in that role will, 99% of the time, be another Vedette?

The Vedette was the vehicle that filled the MBT role throughout the Succession Wars.

You know - for any other faction, we'd pretty much be saying "yeah, they build it. Doesn't need to make sense, doesn't need to be justified, it's just a game."

Or not.

[Kit deSummersville]

In the land of Scorpions, the Vedette is king.

[tomaddamz]

And when the opposition in that role will, 99% of the time, be another Vedette?

The Vedette was the vehicle that filled the MBT role throughout the Succession Wars.

I would disagree with that statement, the Capellan Confederation and Draconis Combine have the Bulldog , the Federated Commonwealth has the Goblin that more fits the role of the MBT more than the Vedette.  The one thing the Vedette can do is maintain range from non fusion MBTs by virtue of it's better ground speed.  The assertion that 99% of the oppoition will be another Vedette is patently false.

[Stormfury]

Have a look at TR: 3039 and check the raw numbers of the Vedette and its battlefield role.

Simply put, if you see a vehice-any vehicle- odds are good it will be a Vedette.

[tomaddamz]

Have a look at TR: 3039 and check the raw numbers of the Vedette and its battlefield role.

Simply put, if you see a vehice-any vehicle- odds are good it will be a Vedette.

Look at the same source to see the tactics employed, this is Armored cav tatics at it's finest; also note that the Vedette is not operated in homogeneous units.  If you are seeing Vedettes, you are seeing other vehicles present to cover it's weaknesses.

[BrokenMnemonic]

I don't know if this helps at all, but I took a look through the FM: Periphery, as that had some detail on what the armoured units affiliated to the various Mech Corps used, or what their tactics were. It's obviously a much later source than the two Periphery books, but of the units that describe themselves as favouring heavy armour - which is only two out of all of the named units - both talk about preferring either the LRM carrier, or the Heavy LRM Carrier.

I know that this is a statistically insignificant number of units; there are presumably more armour units in the TC than are in the field manual, probably static units rather than the more mobile Corps-affiliated units. The field manual is also later than the period being discussed, and does mention that armoured vehicles have been seeing a lot of upgrades, and that TC produced armoured vehicles are in demand with some Inner Sphere merc units and other states.

So, while I wouldn't say that this is anything that could be used to draw a solid conclusion, it is enough for me to form the impression that maybe the heavy armour "slot" in the TC is dominated by the LRM carrier. It's not an MBT by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a useful vehicle. Given that the Taurians have lots of hovercraft - and the field manual has several armoured units that are predominantly or even entirely hovercraft and VTOLS - I can see an entirely valid counter to other nation MBTs being "we harass them with our light, fast vehicles until they enter the kill zone, and then pour on LRM rounds like it's going out of fashion."  It's not charge of the heavy tanks by a long stretch, but it would explain what's filling those heavy armour units, and it'd be consistent with that one sourcebook, if nothing else.