Changes to Autocannon

[FedComGirl]

Something you could do without changing any BV or the record sheets in any way would be to let the AC2 and AC5 (maybe the 10) fire at "high velocity". The idea being I spray an area with the home of being more likely to hit. Leave the damage alone but give a -1 to the to hit number to reflect the volume of fire in the air. When someone chooses to fire in this mode it counts as two shots from their ammo stores instead of one.

Hi

That would be the rapid-fire rule. I think it's been mentioned. It doesn't have a -1 to hit though and it does have a greater chance of jamming the gun. A -1 to hit could be given for the Accurate Weapon Quirk.

[FedComGirl]

To help balance ranges and damages there's also the Altered Energy Weapon Rule where energy weapons lose damage at long range but gain damage at short.

[Papabees]

Hi

That would be the rapid-fire rule. I think it's been mentioned. It doesn't have a -1 to hit though and it does have a greater chance of jamming the gun. A -1 to hit could be given for the Accurate Weapon Quirk.

I'll admit it sounds similar but actually functions quite different. The Rapid Fire Rule allows for more damage and the Accurate Weapon quirk doesn't really have an in game downside. Alot of the 3025 mechs only have one ton of ammo so burning through it twice as fast for a -1 to hit at the players option would actually function quite a bit differently than either of those. 

[Cybra]

With a rule like that, most players will double tap the AC/2's for the -1. Lets do a quick breakdown:

Weapons	Ammo	Single	Double
1 AC/2	1 Ton	45 shots	22.5 shots
2 AC/2	1 ton	22.5 shots	11.25 shots
1 AC/5	1 ton	20 shots	10 shots
2 AC/5	1 ton	10 shots	5 shots

Looking at this table, 1 AC/2 per ton of ammo should always double tap, except for really low numbers (2's and 3's). 2 AC/2's per ton should double tap except for low numbers (4's, 5's and maybe 6's). 1 AC/5 per ton should only double tap on high numbers (9's and 10's, maybe 11's). 2 AC/5's per ton should never double tap unless the target must be put down right now.

Plugging the numbers into the Heavymetal Weapon BV Calculator shows that the AC/2 average damage is increased by 19.2% and the AC/5's average damage increases by 18.48%.

If I were to use such a rule, then I'm double tapping the AC/2's 90% of the time and the AC/5's 25% of the time, unless they have a lot of ammo, then I'll douoble tap more.

Quick question though. When someone chooses to fire in that mode, do they generate double the heat as well? I'm assuming yes, but you know what they say about assuming...

[marauder648]

If folks were to take a serious look at re-doing the rules so things were a bit more lifelike or realistic or in some cases reasonable i'd expect to see AC-2s and 5's being the equivalent of the Ultra AC.   Get rid of the jamming rule and just add a +1 to hit modifier for the extra shot. 
Looking at how weapons are portrayed in MWO should give folks a good idea of how the AC's work. Light AC's are rapid firing affairs whilst the bigger you get the heavier the round and the slower the ROF.

So should an AC 2/5 fire twice? Absolutely! 

Ultra ACs can again do the double tap trick but without the +1 modifier

I'd change CASE too so that old CASE acted like CASE II does. The case fluff came out before ideas like blow out pannels for ammo was a thing in real life so they had no idea of how such an ammo safety system would work. 

[evilauthor]

So should an AC 2/5 fire twice? Absolutely! 

Ultra ACs can again do the double tap trick but without the +1 modifier

Heh. Going by Solaris VII rules about refire rates, a vanilla AC/2 would be capable of firing up to FOUR times in a single turn. That turns it into a pretty decent weapon even with stacking TN penalties for every shot after the first.

[marauder648]

Then it would be better than the massive waste of tonnage it is now.  The AC-2's a niche weapon. Increase their rate of fire to make them seem like a rapid firing light cannon and sure add penalties like + to hit and a jam after firing more than 2 shots and it might be useful in its time when it was useful outside of now days where its a special ammo carrier.

I keep thinking of ACs in B-tech compared to real life equivalents. 

AC-2 - 40 - 60mm auto-cannon, rate of fire something like a bofors in WW2.  VERY high velocity otherwise it would have a short range
AC-5 - 90 - 105mm caliber cannon, slower ROF but heavier hit
AC-10 - 120 - 130mm caliber - the journeyman of the cannons.
AC-20 - 155 - 170mm caliber - Similar to the KV-2 of WW2 which mounted a short barreled 155mm howitzer designed to take on targets at short ranges. Slow ROF and slow shell velocity to show for its low range but a massive punch.

[Marwynn]

One fun homerule was to use "tracers". We didn't use this much back in the day, but it seemed fun for us as we struggled with the same conclusion about ACs.

Keep in mind, my gaming group back then were MW3 and MW4 converts, mostly.

Autocannon Tracers
- Roll to attack as normal if firing at a new target
- If one AC attack hits, ballistic attacks against the target gain a -1 to hit modifier for that turn of fire.
- Next turn: if shooting at the same target, can hit the same area that weapon hit for a +2 penalty.


Made the Rifleman quite fearsome, blam-blam-blamming things down with precision. It required more record keeping but we didn't want to alter the stats much. Then we experimented with double-tap from MaxTech, I think it was, and other things.

My more complex house rule submission was to give AC2s and AC5s the ability to "bracket" a target and reduce the TMM for friendlies and to provide cover fire. But those were leaking away from the game's spirit and didn't last much longer than a few test games.

Oh the early, experimental 2000s...

[SubtleAsAHammer]

I like Evil Author's idea of allowing AC/2s to fire 4 shots, imagine 2 of these in a over/under configuration with a ER PPC or ER Large Laser on both arms and LRMs in the torsos teamed with additional AC/2s. Sounds delicious.

[Papabees]

With a rule like that, most players will double tap the AC/2's for the -1. Lets do a quick breakdown:

Weapons	Ammo	Single	Double
1 AC/2	1 Ton	45 shots	22.5 shots
2 AC/2	1 ton	22.5 shots	11.25 shots
1 AC/5	1 ton	20 shots	10 shots
2 AC/5	1 ton	10 shots	5 shots

Looking at this table, 1 AC/2 per ton of ammo should always double tap, except for really low numbers (2's and 3's). 2 AC/2's per ton should double tap except for low numbers (4's, 5's and maybe 6's). 1 AC/5 per ton should only double tap on high numbers (9's and 10's, maybe 11's). 2 AC/5's per ton should never double tap unless the target must be put down right now.

Plugging the numbers into the Heavymetal Weapon BV Calculator shows that the AC/2 average damage is increased by 19.2% and the AC/5's average damage increases by 18.48%.

If I were to use such a rule, then I'm double tapping the AC/2's 90% of the time and the AC/5's 25% of the time, unless they have a lot of ammo, then I'll douoble tap more.

Quick question though. When someone chooses to fire in that mode, do they generate double the heat as well? I'm assuming yes, but you know what they say about assuming...

I think the heat increase would be reasonable and keep things in balance with other weapons which would be my goal for the rule: no sheet changes at all stil balance BV.

[SubtleAsAHammer]

In the Universe where A/C 2s can fire 4 times heat is a trade off but never forget double heat sinks.

[FedComGirl]

I'll admit it sounds similar but actually functions quite different. The Rapid Fire Rule allows for more damage and the Accurate Weapon quirk doesn't really have an in game downside. Alot of the 3025 mechs only have one ton of ammo so burning through it twice as fast for a -1 to hit at the players option would actually function quite a bit differently than either of those.

After rereading your post again, why would you expend more ammo without hoping to do twice as much damage, or hit twice as many targets, as you would normally?

True the Quirk doesn't really have a down side. I would think that such weapons would at least cost more but that's just me.

And I'm not sure it would change things that much. They'd still risk the gun jamming if they rapid fire. So they may never use that particular rule.

With a rule like that, most players will double tap the AC/2's for the -1. Lets do a quick breakdown:

Weapons	Ammo	Single	Double
1 AC/2	1 Ton	45 shots	22.5 shots
2 AC/2	1 ton	22.5 shots	11.25 shots
1 AC/5	1 ton	20 shots	10 shots
2 AC/5	1 ton	10 shots	5 shots

Looking at this table, 1 AC/2 per ton of ammo should always double tap, except for really low numbers (2's and 3's). 2 AC/2's per ton should double tap except for low numbers (4's, 5's and maybe 6's). 1 AC/5 per ton should only double tap on high numbers (9's and 10's, maybe 11's). 2 AC/5's per ton should never double tap unless the target must be put down right now.

Plugging the numbers into the Heavymetal Weapon BV Calculator shows that the AC/2 average damage is increased by 19.2% and the AC/5's average damage increases by 18.48%.

If I were to use such a rule, then I'm double tapping the AC/2's 90% of the time and the AC/5's 25% of the time, unless they have a lot of ammo, then I'll douoble tap more.

Quick question though. When someone chooses to fire in that mode, do they generate double the heat as well? I'm assuming yes, but you know what they say about assuming...

What's nice about Rapid-Fire and Accurate Weapon Quirk is that it's entirely legal as long as those rules are in play.  >:D and yes Rapid Fire does generate double the heat.

snip

I keep thinking of ACs in B-tech compared to real life equivalents. 

AC-2 - 40 - 60mm auto-cannon, rate of fire something like a bofors in WW2.  VERY high velocity otherwise it would have a short range
AC-5 - 90 - 105mm caliber cannon, slower ROF but heavier hit
AC-10 - 120 - 130mm caliber - the journeyman of the cannons.
AC-20 - 155 - 170mm caliber - Similar to the KV-2 of WW2 which mounted a short barreled 155mm howitzer designed to take on targets at short ranges. Slow ROF and slow shell velocity to show for its low range but a massive punch.

I tend to think of them like that with oddball AC/s being lower or higher velocities than others of the same millimeter.

I like Evil Author's idea of allowing AC/2s to fire 4 shots, imagine 2 of these in a over/under configuration with a ER PPC or ER Large Laser on both arms and LRMs in the torsos teamed with additional AC/2s. Sounds delicious.

How would that effect the Rapid Fire Rules as well as Ultra's and Rotary AC/s?

[marauder648]

The weapon sizes isn't at all helped by the wonky ranges of B-tech weapons, MGs that can barely reach 100 meters, the change that the big ACs have the short range whilst the light ones have the long range when IRL the reality is oppsite, the bigger the gun the longer the range.

Still I know not to try and reconsile RL and B-tech physics and ranges.

[FedComGirl]

The weapon sizes isn't at all helped by the wonky ranges of B-tech weapons, MGs that can barely reach 100 meters, the change that the big ACs have the short range whilst the light ones have the long range when IRL the reality is oppsite, the bigger the gun the longer the range.

Still I know not to try and reconsile RL and B-tech physics and ranges.

I don't let it bother me. I just figure that's the way things work in that universe.

[marauder648]

In my own head canon a hex is 100 meters.  That at least makes the weapons have a decent range.

[Greywind]

I just worry about hexes and don't give a second thought to how big a hex is supposed to be.

[ehlijen]

After rereading your post again, why would you expend more ammo without hoping to do twice as much damage, or hit twice as many targets, as you would normally?

The suggestion was as follows:

ACs stay unchanged except for the option of Saturation Fire:

Expend twice the ammo, generate twice the heat.
In exchange the attack is made at a -1 bonus to hit.

Ie, you don't spend the ammo for more damage, but to create a wider volley cone and thus increasing the odds of hitting at all.

[SubtleAsAHammer]

If the A/C 2 could fire 4 times shouldn't also generate 4X the heat and would the -1 penalty be for shots 2-4 only?

[Redman]

For some time now i have been working on an "BattleTech Re-balance Mod." which among other house rules would include some changes to autocannons as well. It's not play-tested so far but i thought i might throw in the autocannon rules part.

Please keep in mind that if some things seem a little high-powered, yes, that is the intention of it.  8)
Also these rules are intended to be used with the glancing blows / direct hit optional rules from TacOps.


Ballistic Weapons
•   Ballistic direct fire weapons do not have minimum ranges.
•   Autocannons have ammo worth 120 points of damage with the exception of hyper-velocity versions which have 100. Recalculate ammo per ton rounding to nearest integer.
•   Change all light, standard, ultra and LBX autocannon damage ratings as follows

   2 → 3       (40 shots per ton)
   5 → 6       (20 shots per ton)
   10 → 11   (11 shots perton)

•   Change rotary and hyper-velocity autocannon damage ratings as follows

   RAC 2 → RAC 3         (30 shots per ton)
   RAC 5 → RAC 5      (24 shots per ton)
   HVAC 2 → HVAC 3       (33 shots per ton)
   HVAC 5 → HVAC 6      (16 shots per ton)
   HVAC 10 → HVAC 12   (8 shots per ton)

•   Ultra-ACs can be unjammed just like RACs.
•   All Ultra-ACs have the same ranges ranges as LBX versions.
•   Add a +2 modifier to the cluster table rolls for UACs and RACs firing at rate 2.
•   When using ultra or rotary ACs at higher rates of fire roll for jam separate from attack roll. If a jam occurs roll 1d6 (divided by 3 when firing two shots or 2 when firing 3 to 4 shots and rounded up) to see on which shot the weapon jams. All shots before that are fired normally. The ones after that are not fired and not subtracted from the remaining ammunition stores.
•   Unjamming a UAC or RAC consumes one shot.
•   Hyper-Velocity Autocannons do not explode on an attack roll of 2 and do not leave a smoke filled area after firing.
•   All inner sphere standard, LBX and ultra autocannons are also available as a class 15 variant. Such a version has exactly the same weight and critical requirements and produces the same amount of heat as its class 20 counterpart but with greater range and better ammunition efficiency of 8 shots per ton. These weapons are usually provided as field conversion kits and can be easily swapped with a class 20 weapon during standard maintenance.

Class	Range
AC 15	1-4/5-8/9-12
Ultra-/LBX-AC 15	1-5/6-10/11-15

•   Specialty ammo types may be fired from LBXACs and UACs. UACs may not fire ammo types with a non-standard number of rounds per ton in ultra mode.
•   Armour-piercing ammo does not suffer a -1 to hit penalty. Instead reduce short range by one hex and medium range by two hexes.
•   Autocannon ammo bins may be loaded with a mix of ammo types. When using this rule the order in which the different ammunitions types are loaded must be determined before play and used in that order.
•   Gauss Rifles have ammo worth 150 points of damage per ton. Recalculate shots per ton by rounding to nearest integer.
•   Light Gauss Rifles do 10 points of damage and have 15 rounds of ammo per ton.
•   Upon being hit Gauss Rifles explode only on a roll of 8+ on 2d6. A Gauss Rifle that is critically damaged without exploding is considered shut down and will not explode on further critical hits.
•   Heavy Gauss Rifles do flat 25 points of damage at all ranges but receive a +1 TN penalty. 6  Shots per ton.
•   MGs and HMGs have range brackets 1-2/3-4/5
•   LMGs have range brackets 1-3/4-5/6-7
•   LMGs do 2d6-1 burst fire damage.
•   All MGs may fire double salvos by using 3 rounds of ammo and generating 1 heat or triple salvos by using 6 rounds of ammo and generating 2 heat. The number of hits is determined by using the corresponding cluster hits table. A double (triple) salvo adds +1d6 (+2d6) burst fire damage against infantry.

[SubtleAsAHammer]

I like the above post would have to have used these rules in the old game.

[Redman]

I like the above post would have to have used these rules in the old game.

Hmm, could you clarify that for me?  ???

[SubtleAsAHammer]

I meant back when I played the Old Game(Late 80's/Early 90's) would've loved to use your ideas.

I like your ideas as well as other posters in this here thread.

[Redman]

Thanks!  :)

[Legion]

Another small tweak I like for AC's of any type and for missiles too, is allowing half tons of all ammo, not just MG.  Gives a little more flexibility, and a little tonnage savings if you don't need a full ton.

[Papabees]

The suggestion was as follows:

ACs stay unchanged except for the option of Saturation Fire:

Expend twice the ammo, generate twice the heat.
In exchange the attack is made at a -1 bonus to hit.

Ie, you don't spend the ammo for more damage, but to create a wider volley cone and thus increasing the odds of hitting at all.

Exactly. You explained this so much better than I did  :)

[SubtleAsAHammer]

An intended side effect should be more damage at longer range with less heat created than an energy weapon such as a PPC or Large Laser.

[Sockmonkey]

Another small tweak I like for AC's of any type and for missiles too, is allowing half tons of all ammo, not just MG.  Gives a little more flexibility, and a little tonnage savings if you don't need a full ton.

Agreed. This option should be available for SRMs as well. I don't know of anyone that managed to run out of SRM2 ammo outside of a long campaign with no logistical support.

For simplicity I'd just allow the AP ammo for all types.

[Sabelkatten]

First, a general note. When someone says "making this improvement doesn't affect BV", it actually means "BV doesn't include this, so you get an advantage for free!".

Second, pretty much throwing BV out the window [urlhttp://privat.bahnhof.se/wb503046//cbt.html#2]the rules here[/url] makes most canon weapon configurations on 3025 makes useful. Sure there are still a few lemons, and it doesn't fix the ones with extreme heat problems or armor/firepower imbalances, but it makes even the Shadow Hawk start to look like a solid contender.

[Legion]

Sabelkatten, I'm not sure what you mean.  The relatively lower BV for certain "less optimized" designs is one of the things that balances out the game.

[RiTz21]

WOW I never expected so many replies to this!!
Thanks you all for your comments!

I went through all messages, and I am currently leaning toward this:

• AC2 and AC5 can fire TWICE in a single round, but do triple Heat (3 pt of heat), and the second shot it at +1 penalty to hit. (I figure that firing the same weapon would mean you'd quickly need to compensate for recoil, thus the penalty).
  
• No minimum range for any AC
• No Jamming for double fire
• No changes for AC10 or AC20.

The context I am currently in is also of importance to what I want to change/tweak: I am playing with 12 years old, and they are all new players to the game (So far, they LOVE IT!!). So they ain't no expert in BTech. Since I've not touched Btech for about 15 years, I am also quite rusted rule wise (and I don't know the 'advanced' stuff).

This is why I try to stay (for now) away from the multiple-Ammo types, and the more advanced rules. Over time, I will most likely introduce these new ammo types (like Inferno!!) and such as part of the Campaign. That will be sweet for the youngsters - heck, perhaps THEY will be responsible for re-discovering that ammo type and bring it back to the inner sphere!! HEHE

One thing I would like to review are the 'burst' rules ... can anyone point to me WHERE in the rules those were!? I checked my Btech Compendium, but I could not find the rules there...!??!

Again, Thanks all for the response!!

RiTz21