Author Topic: Is Duane Loose the worst Battletech artist? Let´s discuss Battlemech design  (Read 24795 times)

klarg1

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Practical? Are we still speaking the same English?

Perhaps not, but I understand his language.

I love Justin's art, and David White's Art, and many others, but most of them look like they were drawn by an artist to look cool. Some (not all) of the old designs from TRO3025/3026 look (to me) like they were designed by an engineer as an armored military vehicle. That is how I interpret 'practical'. Depending on the style, I like both.

Some of the designs I really can't stand are the ones where I simply can't see how the thing is supposed to move, let alone fight.

(And, I'll confess to the hypocrisy of loving the Stalker in spite of the above statement. I can't imagine how it walks, but I've loved the thing since I first bought the Citytech box set, back in 1988.)
« Last Edit: 15 April 2014, 15:48:06 by klarg1 »

Orin J.

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Perhaps not, but I understand his language.

I love Justin's art, and David White's Art, and many others, but most of them look like they were drawn by an artist to look cool. Some (not all) of the old designs from TRO3025/3026 look (to me) like they were designed by an engineer as an armored military vehicle. That is how I interpret 'practical'. Depending on the style, I like both.

Some of the designs I really can't stand are the ones where I simply can't see how the thing is supposed to move, let alone fight.

(And, I'll confess to the hypocrisy of loving the Stalker in spite of the above statement. I can't imagine how it walks, but I've loved the thing since I first bought the Citytech box set, back in 1988.)

thank you for answering that for me, i hadn't gotten around to coming back to the forum in a bit and forgot about this.

also i've always assumed that the oval leg components on the Stalker are armored shields, in place because the legs have to be constantly bent a little to balance the massive torso and without 'em there's a lot of fire vectors that are getting drawn right into it's already overworked hip joints.
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Perhaps not, but I understand his language.

I love Justin's art, and David White's Art, and many others, but most of them look like they were drawn by an artist to look cool. Some (not all) of the old designs from TRO3025/3026 look (to me) like they were designed by an engineer as an armored military vehicle. That is how I interpret 'practical'. Depending on the style, I like both.

Some of the designs I really can't stand are the ones where I simply can't see how the thing is supposed to move, let alone fight.
With Loose's art there are so many missing and conflicting lines that the shape of the units gets distorted and meaningful features get lost (in the worst case). That is why I had real problems seeing his art as practical. The concept behind the art might be practical but his executing of it left a lot to be desired (my opinion). 
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Mastergunz

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Quote
most of them look like they were drawn by an artist to look cool.

Um, im pretty sure that's EXACTLY why they were drawn that way.  ;D

Quote
Some (not all) of the old designs from TRO3025/3026 look (to me) like they were designed by an engineer as an armored military vehicle

From a 1980's perspective certainly and truthfully some of them really just stand the test of time. However, if we are talking practicallity for example then why design them with heads at all. One could argue that a speedy scout needs better situational awareness and having a 'head' or big bubble style cockpit independant of the torso makes sense. However I look at designs like the Banshee, Battlemaster, and Atlas and wonder why wrap them in 15 - 18 tons of armor and only cover the head with a half ton. A very visible, very vulnerable location. In modern tanks you don't give the driver a commercial car style windshield. You wrap the crew in the inards to increase servivabilty. My point is the answer to the above is because it looks cool and intimidating...same for mechs.  :)

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Akalabeth

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I get a good laugh at thosecwho think the 3025 art was all that.

Step 1 - Watch Macross
Step 2 - Redraw the mechs in the show
Step 3 - ????
Step 4 - Profit

:p

3025 only has 12 mechs?

Atlas3060

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This was the last piece of BTU related artwork I know of posted by 'Sid
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Akalabeth

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The worst looking mech btw isn't the Yeoman. It's this:



Which is odd because this same artist did some other great pieces.
I suspect this artwork, which I think is a guy in a suit not a battlemech was some emergency art they threw into the TRO to make a deadline as opposed to actually being purpose drawn for the thing.

I did re-draw the parash at one point to make it look a little more decent but have yet to put it up in the fan art section. Maybe I'll do it tonight.

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The worst looking mech btw isn't the Yeoman. It's this:



Which is odd because this same artist did some other great pieces.
I suspect this artwork, which I think is a guy in a suit not a battlemech was some emergency art they threw into the TRO to make a deadline as opposed to actually being purpose drawn for the thing.

I did re-draw the parash at one point to make it look a little more decent but have yet to put it up in the fan art section. Maybe I'll do it tonight.

That and the Ebony and Kuma. This is what I was talking about earlier in this thread - Chaffee's mech work is horrible.
But his ASFs are beautiful, I'll give him those.

klarg1

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Um, im pretty sure that's EXACTLY why they were drawn that way.  ;D


Yes. And they do.

From a 1980's perspective certainly and truthfully some of them really just stand the test of time. However, if we are talking practicallity for example then why design them with heads at all. One could argue that a speedy scout needs better situational awareness and having a 'head' or big bubble style cockpit independant of the torso makes sense. However I look at designs like the Banshee, Battlemaster, and Atlas and wonder why wrap them in 15 - 18 tons of armor and only cover the head with a half ton. A very visible, very vulnerable location. In modern tanks you don't give the driver a commercial car style windshield. You wrap the crew in the inards to increase servivabilty. My point is the answer to the above is because it looks cool and intimidating...same for mechs.  :)

-Gunz

Do I really need to get into pedantry here? Yes, I am aware that a 40 foot humanoid tank with an exposed cockpit is a stupid idea in the real world.

Is it really so hard to accept that some people (like me) like an aesthetic that makes them resemble what real military hardware might look like in a world where giant stompy robots were possible? Frankly, that's one of the things that attracted me to Battletech. For all the ridiculousness, the designs and the Universe shared an aesthetic that was much more "armies in space", and much less "kung fu with robots".

I don't want to belittle anybody who wants the latter, or something else entirely. At the same time, I get a little frustrated when I am constantly told that I only like these things because of nostalgia, or because I somehow prefer an aesthetic that is "objectively worse" than modern designs. I read that a lot from people who love modern look. Why can't both be perfectly acceptable?

To be frank, a big part of the reason that I am such a huge fan of Justin and David's work is that, to my eye, they bridge the gap between practical-looking and stylized-awesome. (Brent Evans has also (IMO) produced some amazing work in that zone.) For me, Matt Plogs art does not usually hit that mark, but I recognize that it is purely because of my own subjective preferences.

Right now I am a huge fan of Catalyst's art direction. I think they have done a fantastic job of bringing in talented artists who can satisfy more than one taste. They can't satisfy everyone, but I think they are giving it as good a shot as I could ask for.

thank you for answering that for me, i hadn't gotten around to coming back to the forum in a bit and forgot about this.

also i've always assumed that the oval leg components on the Stalker are armored shields, in place because the legs have to be constantly bent a little to balance the massive torso and without 'em there's a lot of fire vectors that are getting drawn right into it's already overworked hip joints.

Sorry, man. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I hope I didn't misrepresent you.
« Last Edit: 16 April 2014, 10:54:39 by klarg1 »

Akalabeth

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That and the Ebony and Kuma. This is what I was talking about earlier in this thread - Chaffee's mech work is horrible.
But his ASFs are beautiful, I'll give him those.

Dunno about that, he's got some good stuff:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Works_by_Doug_Chaffee

The uh . . . Akuma and Blackwatch are both quite good. Some of his tanks are great too. Parash and some of the others he did are . . . I dunno what. Ursus II or whatever is another. They're not taken to the same level of polish thus I assume they're not finished works.

klarg1

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Dunno about that, he's got some good stuff:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Works_by_Doug_Chaffee

The uh . . . Akuma and Blackwatch are both quite good. Some of his tanks are great too. Parash and some of the others he did are . . . I dunno what. Ursus II or whatever is another. They're not taken to the same level of polish thus I assume they're not finished works.

I think my only real criticism of Parash is that it looks, to me, more like a Battlearmor suit than a Battlemech.

Akalabeth

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I think my only real criticism of Parash is that it looks, to me, more like a Battlearmor suit than a Battlemech.

That and it's a boring design.

SteelWarrior

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3025 only has 12 mechs?

The comments were about how sexy Warhammers and other unseen are in the origionalTRO......
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In my opinion, Loose had some pretty horrible stuff from 3058.

The 3025 stuff was pretty good, but many of the 'Mechs (I am looking at you, Centurion) was far too skinny for its Mass.  Quite a few 'Mechs were like that from this TRO, but none of the unseen looked too skinny.

I would love to see some of the Minis bulked up. 

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Solid read. Interesting topic, for sure. For me, Loose has always been an inspiration. To this day, I very much enjoy his concepts. Always will. His line work, in some cases feels unresolved, but overall his legacy is the quintessential “classic” battletech. Lots of flavor.

Also, I would point out, that all of the later generation of BT artists have only built on the foundations already established by those who have gone before. Can't forget to salute pioneers, and teachers.

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The comments were about how sexy Warhammers and other unseen are in the origionalTRO......

Ah okay sorry. I thought you were saying that 3025 was basically just a macross rip off :)
To be fair some of the non-japanese mechs are not the best but there are some good ones too.

Someone linked a worst mechs ever top 10. And actually I would begrudge the Urbanmech being on there. Not the sexiest mech on the block but I think it's got charm and looks functional

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I was just paging through my TRO 3058, Loose at his best right there.

Domi1981

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Am I the only one who wonders about why George Lucas didn´t ripped FASA´s butt off for stealing the ATST design for the flea?

Maingunnery

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Am I the only one who wonders about why George Lucas didn´t ripped FASA´s butt off for stealing the ATST design for the flea?
It's not close enough.
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Domi1981

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It's not close enough.

Tell that to those Harmony Gold goons >:(

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Ah okay sorry. I thought you were saying that 3025 was basically just a macross rip off :)
To be fair some of the non-japanese mechs are not the best but there are some good ones too.

Someone linked a worst mechs ever top 10. And actually I would begrudge the Urbanmech being on there. Not the sexiest mech on the block but I think it's got charm and looks functional

Lol np.  Yea the Anime designs had alot more detailing then the others, but they were also the stars in their respective shows so it makes sense.   Urbanmech is famous for its charm due to the pop culture in the BT world for it.  Its a crappy mech everyone loves lol


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Maingunnery

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Its a crappy mech everyone loves lol
Its a specialist.  ;)

But seriously art-wise it ain't so bad, it has a consistent and recognizable style that seems to match its militia purpose. 
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SteelWarrior

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Its an R2D2 with enough alterations to avoid being sued :p
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SteelWarrior

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Proof is in the pic :p

« Last Edit: 18 April 2014, 18:54:36 by SteelWarrior »
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Proof is in the pic :p
LOL! I always wanted to do that but never actually did.   ;D
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Tell that to those Harmony Gold goons >:(

Harmony Gold's international rights to the TV series of Macross are clear, and if they don't defend those rights, it means it'll be harder to go after outright copyright infringement as well as confused rights mixups.  It's unfortunate they won't license the Macross imagery for use in BattleTech, but that's their perogative.
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Domi1981

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Harmony Gold's international rights to the TV series of Macross are clear, and if they don't defend those rights, it means it'll be harder to go after outright copyright infringement as well as confused rights mixups.  It's unfortunate they won't license the Macross imagery for use in BattleTech, but that's their perogative.

Oh thats totally clear for me but, call me naive, I think that HG could sell the (exclusive) right of use to Catalyst GAmes for a fair price. I don´t think they will make any meaningfull money from the Unseens anyway (wild guess) since the just some old mecha designs are barely enough to create a product in any way.
But I don´t want to turn this into one of those HG discussions since now I know that we have designers at hand that really are creative enough to actually draw things on paper that are waaay more cool.

These are 3 of my favorite designers now
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Works_by_Justin_Nelson
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Works_by_Chris_Daranouvong
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Works_by_Anthony_Scroggins

I think their way is way more realistic to what could be future robot design. Many of their designs remember me of industrial robots. One can really see that those MEchs are actually able to perform that level of maneuverability that was described in the novels.
According to this I always had to mindsets about movement in the BT universe and pondered about what actually is a cockpit. First kind would be the static Loose design where you have a Joystick and maybe a pair of peddals. But That couldn´t explain the flexible movement of a Mech, like rolling from backside to frontside after it fell and the complex mechanisms when a Mech´s hand is operated. The second form would descripe a cockpit with way more complex controlls for the pilot. MAybe a pair of gloves and a pair of Mechwarrior legloops to controll exact legmovement.

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Oh thats totally clear for me but, call me naive, I think that HG could sell the (exclusive) right of use to Catalyst GAmes for a fair price.
That's assuming a lot. 
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Akalabeth

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Oh thats totally clear for me but, call me naive, I think that HG could sell the (exclusive) right of use to Catalyst GAmes for a fair price. I don´t think they will make any meaningfull money from the Unseens anyway (wild guess) since the just some old mecha designs are barely enough to create a product in any way

You ever heard of Robotech Tactics?
It's a macross-based table top miniatures game coming out via Palladium and their kickstarter. So, given that there's a game using the mecha images coming out from the one place that they've licensed their stuff to, I think it's unlikely that HG would then go ahead and license to another rival company.

The number of mecha in Macross is greater than what is featured in Battletech. Not to mention the other two series that make up robotech.

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Oh thats totally clear for me but, call me naive, I think that HG could sell the (exclusive) right of use to Catalyst GAmes for a fair price. I don´t think they will make any meaningfull money from the Unseens anyway (wild guess) since the just some old mecha designs are barely enough to create a product in any way.
But I don´t want to turn this into one of those HG discussions since now I know that we have designers at hand that really are creative enough to actually draw things on paper that are waaay more cool.


I'll say one last thing and then drop it:  HG could license the images to CGL, but they clearly don't want to.  If nothing else it could be a condition of their liensing deal with Palladium for the Robotech RPG.  But anyway, CGL have switched to a policy of all art for BT being produced in-house, so they likely wouldn't persue alicense nor accept one if it was offered.
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