Author Topic: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn  (Read 169407 times)

Stormlion1

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1440 on: 28 October 2024, 17:24:14 »
:cry:

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MikhailF

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1441 on: 03 November 2024, 10:12:56 »
Oooooh a Blood Spirit thread.

What was this mention of an Absorption War historical based on?
Not heard of this before?


Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1442 on: 03 November 2024, 11:40:00 »
https://bg.battletech.com/books/upcoming-releases/

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Metallgewitter

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1443 on: 04 November 2024, 04:57:15 »
I am not sure if this was ever discussed but was there ever a reason given why the Spirts (or any other homeworld Clan) never decided to relocate out of the KErensky Cluster? the spirits were actually trying to find new systems to escape the Adders (or at the very least to rebuild). But why didn't they organize something like a bigger colonization effort further away? Sure it would have been very draining and put a lot of pressure to keep it secret but they managed to keep their Colleen system secret for several years. Might have been smarter to leave the Cluster and gve the Adders the finger when they realize they bombed York and nobody was home
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Mendrugo

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1444 on: 04 November 2024, 08:41:42 »
I am not sure if this was ever discussed but was there ever a reason given why the Spirts (or any other homeworld Clan) never decided to relocate out of the KErensky Cluster? the spirits were actually trying to find new systems to escape the Adders (or at the very least to rebuild). But why didn't they organize something like a bigger colonization effort further away? Sure it would have been very draining and put a lot of pressure to keep it secret but they managed to keep their Colleen system secret for several years. Might have been smarter to leave the Cluster and gve the Adders the finger when they realize they bombed York and nobody was home

Clan Spaniel states there was an "Explorer" faction advocating for just this, but they were drowned out and marginalized by the Crusader/Warden mass movements.  Clan Spaniel also says that during the Political Century, Clans got more risk-averse, preferring to focus their resources on winning zero-sum Trials against rivals, rather than trying to create new colonies and enclaves, which they'd then have to spread their touman among even more thinly to defend against Trials of Possession.

Clan Coyote went on a tear of expansion in the late 2900s, becoming by far the Clan with the largest amount of territory and resources.  However, aggressive counter-Trialing by Crusader Clans led to a steep decline in the 3030s and 3040s, leaving the once dominant Coyotes a shadow of their former selves by 3050. 
« Last Edit: 04 November 2024, 10:41:02 by Mendrugo »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1445 on: 04 November 2024, 10:14:36 »
Interesting. Though it kind of makes sense considering that the merchants often give the input what is most cost efficient and colonization is very costly. Plus it opens up the Clan to trials from other Clans as it has been shown over and over
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Stormlion1

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1446 on: 04 November 2024, 10:38:43 »
Plus being sneaky and setting up secret Colonys is not the Clan way. Very much against what Nicky K stated the way the Clans were to be run. Now saying that I think the Blood Spirits missed the boat by not going to the Inner Sphere either by joining the Ravens or Diamond Sharks as auxiliary forces like the Hells Horses did or just wholesale moving into the Periphery and setting up a Periphery Kingdom somewhere. The same time period the Inner Sphere was a mess and most wouldn't even have noticed for quite a while.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1447 on: 04 November 2024, 12:06:29 »
But why didn't they organize something like a bigger colonization effort further away? Sure it would have been very draining and put a lot of pressure to keep it secret

You just answered your own question. The Spirits didn't have the resources to do what you're suggesting. It's really not more complicated than that.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1448 on: 04 November 2024, 12:44:58 »
The Ghost Bears needed almost a decade to relocate to the Inner Sphere. They had besides their standard jumpship fleet two huge Leviathan transports and the support of the Snow Ravens. The were one of the most powerful Clans, but they did the relocation successfully in secret.

The Spirits did not have such a high-performance logistical network.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1449 on: 04 November 2024, 14:28:18 »
You just answered your own question. The Spirits didn't have the resources to do what you're suggesting. It's really not more complicated than that.

But they managed to pull it off before the Wars of Reaving. Though perhaps rather because of the tumultous times as most Clans were looking elsewhere.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1450 on: 04 November 2024, 14:41:43 »
Colleen isn't that far away from the traditional "borders" of the Clan Homeworlds. In time the border of the Clan Homeworlds could have easily even been expanded to wrap around and include Colleen.

So no, they didn't in fact pull it off. Colleen is far too close to the Clan Homeworlds to view it that way. Instead Colleen was more like a fallback position in case the worst should happen and the Spirits lost York.

It's not ample proof that the Spirits could have pulled off something akin to a Wolverine exodus, far and away from the rest of the Clans, which is I think what you are suggesting.
« Last Edit: 04 November 2024, 14:46:27 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1451 on: 04 November 2024, 16:31:22 »
they would have needed some sort of assurance that colonies were somehow immune or protected from traditional clan trials.  The Spirits learned this the hard way when Mongoose and Burrock continually raided them.  Unless you have a standing and effective garrison to go along with said colony you're out of luck.
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Stormlion1

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1452 on: 05 November 2024, 09:18:42 »
The only 'assurance' would have been distance. In it's own way Colleen was a waste as it was just two close to Clan Space and it didn't take long for it to be discovered.
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Gaiiten

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1453 on: 05 November 2024, 11:41:24 »
And the Spirits could use only a few resources (number of jumpships and dropships) because the Star Adders would have noticed if they used more.
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Stormlion1

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1454 on: 05 November 2024, 13:55:41 »
And the Spirits could use only a few resources (number of jumpships and dropships) because the Star Adders would have noticed if they used more.

I doubt they paid as much attention to the Merchant Fleet as all that. But a wholesale movement of everything would have definitly been noticed. But the Spirits did succeed after a fashion when they abandonded York and disappeared from the Kerensky Cluster.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1455 on: 05 November 2024, 14:13:06 »
And the Spirits could use only a few resources (number of jumpships and dropships) because the Star Adders would have noticed if they used more.

Not really though. They managed to establish their new colonies despite being pressed by the Adders. In fact they used their counter strikes at Albion and Tathis as a way to move material and people to the Colleen system. They diverted one or two Jumpships plus cargo to move laborers and raw materials as well as some scientific projects away from York to Colleen and nobody noticed
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1456 on: 05 November 2024, 16:40:19 »
WoR notes that by 3072 the Adders had lost most of York to the Spirits. Furthermore, the world hadn't been as devastated by the Society stuff as other worlds. The Spirits used this period to speed up their relocation of some of their assets to Colleen. Militarily they were peeling off a cluster at a time from York.

Basically, the Spirits got a brief window where the Adders had refocused elsewhere, where the Adder forces on York were diminished, and the general chaos of the WoR era had given the Spirits some reprieve.

Colleen was first colonized in 3067, the Spirits used that period from 3067 to 3072 to get things moving, at first slowly, then faster once the chaos of the WoR era set in. This included moving a single genetic repository in 3070.

Then in August 3072 the Adders returned and this time they used orbital bombardment on York. They stopped just short of completely devastating the Adders and that world, but they destroyed most of the Spirits infrastructure in this act.

I think my point is that the Spirits were really only able to move as much as they did (and it wasn't very much) because of the chaos of the WoR era and because the Adders were so distracted by events elsewhere that they had allowed their focus (and their forces and foothold) on York to diminish. This also suggests their infrastructure on York just wasn't that modular or portable, it couldn't be easily relocated.

Because WoR tells us that aside from that single genetic repository, the Spirits didn't manage to move much to Colleen. Yes they moved some units and colonists, but they didn't manage to transfer much of any infrastructure worth noting, such as military factories. The final section on the Spirits in the WoR book tell us that the building/rebuilding of the Clan on Colleen was very slow moving.

Compare that to things the other Clans did to facilitate a relocation, like the Horses ordering a modular shipyard. The Horses had the leeway to decide on a plan and then to decide how best to execute that plan on a large scale. By comparison what the Spirits did felt more like a smuggling operation, a jumpship or two at a time, a cluster at a time, slowly moving them to Colleen.

When they did catch a break (the Adders really taking their eyes off the Spirits at York), it seemed to happen too suddenly and unpredictably for the Spirits to fully take advantage of it. Which makes sense, they didn't see all that WoR stuff coming. Even as some of it benefitted the Spirits and created a window or opening, they weren't prepared to exploit it.

More importantly, and stupidly, they kept getting themselves involved in the WoR events. Such as reaving other Clans. Which cost them a great deal and no doubt tied up a lot of the Clan's resources.

To my mind for the Spirits to have pulled off a bigger, faster move. They would have needed to basically not participate in the Reaving of other Clans. Conserve their resources that way. But also they would have needed to correctly anticipate that the Adders would take their eye off the ball at York, and that the chaos of the WoR era was going to create an opening for the Spirits to do more. To move more freely.

That only makes sense though with the full benefit of 20/20 hindsight and knowing that the WoR events were going to create that. We have that benefit now talking about this stuff and looking back with knowledge of what was going to happen. The Spirits really had no way of anticipating the opening and opportunity that the era would grant them.
« Last Edit: 05 November 2024, 16:48:15 by Alan Grant »

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1457 on: 05 November 2024, 17:45:04 »
Not really though. They managed to establish their new colonies despite being pressed by the Adders. In fact they used their counter strikes at Albion and Tathis as a way to move material and people to the Colleen system. They diverted one or two Jumpships plus cargo to move laborers and raw materials as well as some scientific projects away from York to Colleen and nobody noticed

Yes, really. You just pretty much just made the opposite point that you were trying to make. The Spirits specifically chose to move in secret and used operations like Tathis as a distraction to divert JumpShips elsewhere. The WoR says more than once that they were specifically trying to avoid being noticed doing what they were doing, because they knew the other Clans (most especially the Adders) would come for them and their new worlds if they did notice. Which they did.

More importantly, and stupidly, they kept getting themselves involved in the WoR events. Such as reaving other Clans. Which cost them a great deal and no doubt tied up a lot of the Clan's resources.

This point especially annoys me and is one of the few things about the WoR book that bothered me. The Spirits flinging themselves into the forefront of the Viper Annihilation for absolutely no gain and gutting their own touman especially galls me because it just makes no sense.

One can't even compare it to their interference in the Burrock Absorption because the stakes were very personal for the Spirits in that conflict. The Burrocks had tormented and preyed on them for almost the entirety of their existence. It makes sense to me that they'd flout tradition to carry out the Burrocks' sentence themselves. That tracks 100%. And while I'm sure the Spirits were none-too-happy about Brett Andrews' killing of Troy Boques in battle, I just don't see it as being that motivating of a factor.

An idea that occurred to me is that, with an Adder ilKhan in place, maybe the Spirits were forced to be the tip of the spear in the Viper Annihilation, an underhanded move by Banacek to weaken his Clan's most hated enemies. But since that wasn't even alluded to in the book, I can't even make that argument. Plus you'd think the Coyotes would've been the ones forced into that role, especially given the fact this was specifically the reason they were given a stay of execution in the first place. It would've been poetic justice to see them leading the ground charge against the Clan that not only beat them senseless, but allowed them to live afterwards.

I still think it was a mistake to wipe out the Spirits as an afterthought. The Coyotes should've been the ones on the chopping block, and the Spirits should've been allowed to fade away into isolated obscurity in the Colleen system.
« Last Edit: 05 November 2024, 18:00:39 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1458 on: 05 November 2024, 22:06:44 »

I still think it was a mistake to wipe out the Spirits as an afterthought. The Coyotes should've been the ones on the chopping block, and the Spirits should've been allowed to fade away into isolated obscurity in the Colleen system.

The survival of the Coyotes in the WoR always stuck in my craw.  This is the Clan that, if memory serves, basically played nice with the Society.  They needed to die, and the Spirits -- who by virtue of their isolationism should have been basically unaffected by the Society uprising -- should have either survived hidden away on Colleen, or else earned the respect of the Adders during the anti-Viper campaign and been "allowed" to reintegrate with the rest of the surviving Clans.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1459 on: 05 November 2024, 22:51:29 »
The survival of the Coyotes in the WoR always stuck in my craw.  This is the Clan that, if memory serves, basically played nice with the Society.  They needed to die, and the Spirits -- who by virtue of their isolationism should have been basically unaffected by the Society uprising -- should have either survived hidden away on Colleen, or else earned the respect of the Adders during the anti-Viper campaign and been "allowed" to reintegrate with the rest of the surviving Clans.

I preface this by saying that WoR is one of the best BT sourcebooks I've ever read, even with the demise of my favorite faction. I've read it so many times because it's just that good. But the Coyotes not being put up for immediate Annihilation for their role in the Society rebellion is frankly unbelievable to me. They didn't just play nice with the Society, they were active participants in what the Society was doing. The Coyotes living and the Spirits dying will always be the one flaw in an otherwise incredibly well-crafted story to me.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1460 on: 06 November 2024, 06:15:17 »
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1461 on: 06 November 2024, 09:02:24 »
I preface this by saying that WoR is one of the best BT sourcebooks I've ever read, even with the demise of my favorite faction. I've read it so many times because it's just that good. But the Coyotes not being put up for immediate Annihilation for their role in the Society rebellion is frankly unbelievable to me. They didn't just play nice with the Society, they were active participants in what the Society was doing. The Coyotes living and the Spirits dying will always be the one flaw in an otherwise incredibly well-crafted story to me.

It almost goes without saying that I 100% agree with this entire statement. I went into WoR fully expecting to see the Blood Spirits meet their end and I'd made my peace with that. The narrative leading up to the Viper Annihilation was really solid, absolutely love everything Ben Rome was doing, but the dissonance after that point with what the Clan logically should have been doing/thinking...

Obviously it isn't the first time that a faction did something for narrative reasons that wasn't in their best interest. This is BattleTech, after all. But the 'Yotes walking away after all of their Society-related shenanigans really ran contrary to theme of burning out the taint.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1462 on: 06 November 2024, 10:08:46 »
The Viper Annihilation was actually kind of a good storyline other than the Blood Spirits getting mauled. But saying that it is well in character that they would want to lead the way in that conflict. It's all about that honor before reason.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1463 on: 06 November 2024, 13:13:26 »
My 2 cents:
Among the Coyotes were quite a number of Warriors who kept their faith with the true Way of the Clans. During the climactic Viper-Coyote battles on Tamaron these warriors attacked the Dark Coyotes and fought with the Vipers.

While Clan Coyote did wrong, due these warriors the Clan got another chance (after some brutal reaving of the scientist caste and the dezgra warriors, literally crushing the Clan).

The Coyotes came back into the fold of the true Clans.

On the other hand, the Spirits did not.
After the Viper annihilation they left for Colleen. When the other Clans discovered them there, initiated Trials of Possessions the Spirits acted finally dezgra in using their civilian castepeople in battle, so spitting on the Way of the Clans. Given their low standing due their bad relations towards the Star Adders, this was the fial straw, leading to their demise.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1464 on: 06 November 2024, 13:30:36 »
I guess "keeping the faith with the true Way of the Clans" means sitting back and doing absolutely nothing while their brethren work hand-in-paw with the Society to tear the fabric of the Clan caste system apart. They knew full well what was going on and chose not to do anything about it, or even to warn the other Clans as to what was going on. There's no logical reality where the Clans wouldn't have Annihilated them for this. It's inconsistent, out-of-character writing.

And pretending as if the Star Adders weren't waiting for an excuse to destroy the Blood Spirits, never mind that they were just as guilty of using civilians in battle (Indicass Alpha) and far more dezgra actions besides (using orbital bombardment to destroy tens of millions of people on York) is a joke. I mean, the writing itself literally states that this was the case. The Adders were acting out of personal malice, because they hated the Spirits every bit as much as the Spirits hated them.

I stand by what I said. The Coyotes should've gotten the axe, and the Spirits should've vanished into isolation.
« Last Edit: 06 November 2024, 13:35:03 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1465 on: 06 November 2024, 13:55:56 »
Well, it was the decision of all other Clans to spare the Coyotes then.
The Spirits did have the same chance, but they were condemned. Finally due their actions they had proven that they were lost and a danger for the other Clans.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1466 on: 06 November 2024, 15:24:39 »
Deleted. Not worth it as usual, and we're talking about two different things.
« Last Edit: 06 November 2024, 15:32:28 by tassa_kay »
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Wolf72

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1467 on: 06 November 2024, 17:02:40 »
It always bugged me that they spearheaded the invasion of Kent (it was Kent, right? New Kent?) ...

Anyway, the thought that the Adders may have maneuvered CBW into that spot bugs me even more.  The wars of semantics and double talk amongst the home clans must have been epic.  The Star Adders should have pulled a Smoke Jaguar and gone in first.

I'd really like to see a BSG rescue style mission of any survivors of the colonies (no pun intended!).  But iirc there would be traceable material in space to find out what happened (not that much could be done, except maybe spark a 2nd invasion).
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Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1468 on: 06 November 2024, 19:09:33 »
It always bugged me that they spearheaded the invasion of Kent (it was Kent, right? New Kent?) ...

Minority opinion here, but I don't find it too hard to believe the Spirits wanted Viper blood bad and wanted it enough to go in as hard as they did on the Viper Annihilation. The Vipers were absolutely dezgra on Tokasha, killed three Spirit Galaxies and Khan Troy Boques there, and killed them ugly. The Spirits have always been passionate and vengeful, and I'm sure the thought the other Clans might wipe the Vipers out before the Spirits could exact some measure of revenge was unacceptable.
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
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rebs

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1469 on: 06 November 2024, 19:21:29 »
Minority opinion here, but I don't find it too hard to believe the Spirits wanted Viper blood bad and wanted it enough to go in as hard as they did on the Viper Annihilation. The Vipers were absolutely dezgra on Tokasha, killed three Spirit Galaxies and Khan Troy Boques there, and killed them ugly. The Spirits have always been passionate and vengeful, and I'm sure the thought the other Clans might wipe the Vipers out before the Spirits could exact some measure of revenge was unacceptable.

This, MechWarriors.  This.

Of all the rotten things Brett Andrews did, the two worst things were the titular Reavings themselves and what he did on Tokasha.  It would have been a glorious battle - and the Bloody IlKhan knew it and didn’t want that at all.  It would have put the Adders squarely ahead of the Vipers in raw strength.

Honor didn’t even take a back seat.  Andrews sat on honor and took a freaking dump metaphorically. 

Comes down to power.  The Vipers and the Adders both wanted power, suzerainty over the Home Worlds.  But not to share.  And that was the altar upon which the Blood Spirits were sacrificed.
« Last Edit: 06 November 2024, 19:35:00 by rebs »
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