Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!

[BrianDavion]

yeah the Foxes aren't allies of ANYONE they very much march to the beat of their own drum (or swim in their own current if you want a tired cliched sea metaphor)

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Relations with whom? The Dominion is already unfriendly on a good day with literally all of its neighbors and doesn't have any particularly close allies, the only ones who'd even give a frak about what Alaric has to say are already on board with him, and they're more or less as self-sufficient as every other realm. And since the Foxes have wares for whoever has coin no matter what the other Clans have to say about it, I wouldn't worry too much about them, either.

The Raven helped us utilize our Warship slips, we have access to a decent amount of their stuff as do they of ours. ilClan might put pressure on the relationship, which might require a pivot down the line.

But it was more like, I hope we can fix our HPGs cause I can’t see us allowing the Foxes to do it after they f***ed up our referendum and helped incite the violence on Alarics behalf

[CJC070]

yeah the Foxes aren't allies of ANYONE they very much march to the beat of their own drum (or swim in their own current if you want a tired cliched sea metaphor)

They do seem to be content with being “King makers” than kings themselves.

[Angrii]

They do seem to be content with being “King makers” than kings themselves.

Not painting a giant target on your own backside does wonders for your health!

[nova_dew]

Going back to Cluster sizes, after a bit of miscalculation on my part when playing with the DD RAT's, I accidentally'd, giving the following:

Six Trinaries and two Binaries of mechs, (110 Mechs) Binary for the CO and XO of the Cluster.
Battle Armour Trinary (15 Points BA).
PBI Binary (10 Points PBI), For Field engineers, security ect.
Two Vehicle Trinaries (60 Vehicles), Offensive Trinary and a Defensive/Transport Trinary?
ASF Binary (20 ASF)

So basically about two Clusters smooshed together, 1) this will bring our Clusters closer in line with a Regiment, 2) either cut down on the number of Clusters TPTB need to keep track off by smooshing or staying the same and increasing the size, 3) can be cut down into pre-smoosh Clusters/Trinaries/Binaries/Stars as needed for smaller actions.

Phalanx, Valkyrie and Claws can play with numbers more, replacing Mech Stars or Trinaries with PBI, BA Vehicle or ASF.

Granted smooshing would be better, otherwise we'd end up with ~31 regiments, and ~15 I think would be better if keeping track is better and IRL-adjacent things can be done, when two clusters are merged, taking Alpha Galaxy as an example the 1st and 3rd Bear Guards become just the Bear Guards Cluster with half the unit taking the Honorifics and sub Heraldry (Alpha Galaxy patch, Bear Guards Cluster patch, old 1st or 3rd patch) of the 1st and the other half the 3rd, 8th Bear Cuirassiers and the 73rd Battle Cluster become the IDK the 1st Cuirassiers Cluster and do the same as the Bear Guards Cluster.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I don’t like that. It doesn’t easily fit into any standard Dropship set ups. It’s huge, 13 subunits. Not enough BA to compete with the regiments, even with canon low number Drac platoons we’d be outnumbered 4-1 (5-1 for other factions BA regiments, and something like 15-1 against Davion RCTs), and they have a CI regiment as well. (Holy crap, I just did some math for BA regiments it’s well into the thousands for IS formations. Even a bare bones Kurita regiment (at 3 subunits per higher unit, is 324 BA))

Vees are properly numbered, maybe a tad low for going against a regiment, but used smartly it can work. A aero binary isn’t enough and certainly not enough if the unit is ever split.

This is 2.5 clusters for a massive drop in combat effectiveness by everything but mechs and vees. And it only adds 20 mechs and 60 vees.

[nova_dew]

[snip]

I tried mathing it out as 1 Cluster = 1/4 Regiment, it was messy, but 1 Cluster = 1/2 Regiment... that would give us ~24 Regiments-a-like (since we have about 4 Clusters per Galaxy) vs the DCMS 39.

65 Mechs, 4 Trinaries and a command Star
60 Vehicles, 3 Trinaries it would leave us short vs a IS Regiment but we're not the Horses
10 ASF, 1 Star, but again leave us short, but we're not the Ravens
300 BA

Change that to 1 Cluster to 1/3 Regiment so about ~15 Regiment-a-likes
45 Mechs (135), just over a Regiment
40 Vehicles (120), just under a Regiment
6 Points of ASF (24), dead on a Wing
200 BA (600), over a FC Regiment if no Command Company, under if it does

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Your battle armor math is wrong and it’s confusing. It went from 15 points (trinary or 75 individuals) to 300, which is 4 trinaries. Also a FC BA regiment is ~750-1000

Your assessment of our naval abilities is wrong, we have unnumbered naval aerospace assets, two clusters of aerospace just chilling, a Galaxy set up with NL-45 small craft. We are probably the second naval power in the sphere.  10 fighters is a joke.

In any case, what you have is almost exactly what I have for your half version. It differs by 50 total BA, 5 mechs, while gaining 20 fighters per cluster. Mine just fits nicely into dropships

[nova_dew]

Your battle armor math is wrong and it’s confusing. It went from 15 points (trinary or 75 individuals) to 300, which is 4 trinaries. Also a FC BA regiment is ~750-1000

Your assessment of our naval abilities is wrong, we have unnumbered naval aerospace assets, two clusters of aerospace just chilling, a Galaxy set up with NL-45 small craft. We are probably the second naval power in the sphere.  10 fighters is a joke.

In any case, what you have is almost exactly what I have for your half version. It differs by 50 total BA, 5 mechs, while gaining 20 fighters per cluster. Mine just fits nicely into dropships

BA should be vs the FedCom 256 strong Battalion in a RCT not Regiment,

An Aero wing is ~24 craft, some 18 some 36, one is 51, so that's roughly what i was aiming for, but Carrier Dropships carry a Binary, we need some more Dropships that are catered to BA, Vehicles and ASF that don't carry a full trinary of them lol

[BrianDavion]

BA should be vs the FedCom 256 strong Battalion in a RCT not Regiment,

An Aero wing is ~24 craft, some 18 some 36, one is 51, so that's roughly what i was aiming for, but Carrier Dropships carry a Binary, we need some more Dropships that are catered to BA, Vehicles and ASF that don't carry a full trinary of them lol

that depends on era, by 3145 IIRC a number of RCTs are fielding full BA regiments

[Kerfuffin(925)]

BA should be vs the FedCom 256 strong Battalion in a RCT not Regiment,

An Aero wing is ~24 craft, some 18 some 36, one is 51, so that's roughly what i was aiming for, but Carrier Dropships carry a Binary, we need some more Dropships that are catered to BA, Vehicles and ASF that don't carry a full trinary of them lol

Carriers carry a Star, aero and vee points are doubled.

In DD we know they are back up to regiments and are upgrading everything else they have to fill RCT status.

The Dracs use 36 fighter wings, and they are narratively the only faction we can fight. (And the whole reason this deal come up in the first place). We don’t make carriers, we make Aesirs. And on a logical note 10 planes isn’t enough to assign a singe aero fighter per other star. 10 is embarrassingly ineffective, and doesn’t fit well the ToE.  Clan tech is at its weakest in aeroland.


Yours is
4 Supernova Trinary (60 mechs, 300 BA)
1 Command Binary (5 mechs, 10 planes)
1 Trinary Vees (30 combat vee)
1 support Trinary (20-30IFV, 10-0 artillery) [transport/defensive]

Yours takes
Overlord
Union
Broadsword (mechs done)
3 Polaris (vees and half of the BA)
2 Sasanid (other half of BA)
Carrier (planes done)

Either a Star Lord and an Odyssey with one extra drop ship for supplies or 3 Odyssey with 3 open bays/2 after supplies.

I mostly agree with you, outside of your dismissal of aerospace.

[nova_dew]

[snip]

If we go for a Binary of ASF there is nothing that can carry that other than 2 Carriers, if we go for a Trinary we'll end up with 60 birds against 36 if we fight 2 Clusters against a DCMS Regiment, but we'd be about on par with everyone else, granted that will cover the Clans weakness from the rules side, maybe, I don't play the Aero side.
The issue of the RCT is that we'll need 10 Binaries of BA per cluster to go 2 Clusters vs an RCT and that's a lot of bloat,
(1000 BA troopers in 200 Points, 200 Points in 40 Stars, 40 Stars in 20 Binaries, 20 Binaries spread across 2 Clusters, is 10 Binaries per Cluster).

Honestly I think Clan forces do need a buff now, but I think other forces need debuffing to meet somewhere in the middle

[Jellico]

Personally I don't have an issue with the aerospace advantage as I see it compensating for the lack of artillery. Indeed there are examples of it serving in the fashion all the way back in Invading Clans.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Also in both our examples we are at a combat vee deficit. It’s one trinary of combat vees per cluster, for a total of 60 (2 trinaries per regiment equivalent). IFVs and transports are integral to BA and CI regiments, and not so in our versions of the new ToE. 60/36 planes vs 60/108+ combat vees, and 20/36 artilllery (if we do a mixed transport/arty trinary or nothing if we don’t; very bad idea as we are the Heuy AA makers)

[nova_dew]

Also in both our examples we are at a combat vee deficit. It’s one trinary of combat vees per cluster, for a total of 60 (2 trinaries per regiment equivalent). IFVs and transports are integral to BA and CI regiments, and not so in our versions of the new ToE. 60/36 planes vs 60/108+ combat vees, and 20/36 artilllery (if we do a mixed transport/arty trinary or nothing if we don’t; very bad idea as we are the Heuy AA makers)

My first 1/2 Regiment has 60 so 120 for the 2 Clusters per Regiment,

But I think it's just easier to go for Regiment vs Galaxy, with 4 Clusters and just up the units in a Cluster to be 1/4 a Regiment if you include command elements, but that relies on TPTB stopping with the Cluster vs Regiment thing

Per Cluster, Galaxy in parentheses
2 Supernova Trinaries = 30 mechs and 150BA (120 Mechs, 600 BA)
2 Trinaries Vehicles = 30 Vehicles (120 Vehicles)
1 Binary ASF = 20 ASF (80 ASF, some being used to replace standard Arty)
8 Binaries of BA with Transport Binaries (400 BA with transports)

Another way would be a Trinary and Binary pair taking 5 each off of the mechs and Vehicles, and 25 BA off.

Not sure if bumping clan forces up is the best plan, maybe taking IS forces down to a Battalion + Command Lance and equivalent supporting forces would be better  :-\  it would also stop Merc forces ballooning too, This all depends on what TPTB want to do and if they want to try again for a 3025-a-like setting but this time of their own design.

[CJC070]

Depending on what the developers want we may see a new kind of regiment instead.  One that embraces a “cluster” type regiment not the other way around.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

My first 1/2 Regiment has 60 so 120 for the 2 Clusters per Regiment,

But I think it's just easier to go for Regiment vs Galaxy, with 4 Clusters and just up the units in a Cluster to be 1/4 a Regiment if you include command elements, but that relies on TPTB stopping with the Cluster vs Regiment thing

Per Cluster, Galaxy in parentheses
2 Supernova Trinaries = 30 mechs and 150BA (120 Mechs, 600 BA)
2 Trinaries Vehicles = 30 Vehicles (120 Vehicles)
1 Binary ASF = 20 ASF (80 ASF, some being used to replace standard Arty)
8 Binaries of BA with Transport Binaries (400 BA with transports)

Another way would be a Trinary and Binary pair taking 5 each off of the mechs and Vehicles, and 25 BA off.

Not sure if bumping clan forces up is the best plan, maybe taking IS forces down to a Battalion + Command Lance and equivalent supporting forces would be better  :-\  it would also stop Merc forces ballooning too, This all depends on what TPTB want to do and if they want to try again for a 3025-a-like setting but this time of their own design.

We know TBTB are building back up, they spell out that FC is rebuilding to full RCTs, both us and DC are about to kick off a massive recruitment drive.

You keep changing things so it’s hard to keep track. I was hesitant to add so many combat vees, especially to our front line units.

4 clusters/Galaxy per regiment leaves us with 12, which is less than our Regiment Equivalent number now (2.5 cluster/regiment) of 20.
Trying to match a FedSun BA regiment is silly. It was just an example. Unless whatever organization comes out of this (if anything) expands into other clans, these clusters should also be able to deal one on one with other clusters we can expect to face; CHH horde clusters, CJF and Wolf plot clusters
 
2 trinaries of vees is 60 for 240, 8 binaries is (25*2*8=400) for 1600 BA suits per, plus the 600 from the mech supernovas.

You also should, if not need to, account for transportation.

[Minemech]

 The Clans in general need to undergo a vast military culture sea change to survive in the long term. Clan culture was not designed to be successful in the Inner Sphere.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

The Clans in general need to undergo a vast military culture sea change to survive in the long term. Clan culture was not designed to be successful in the Inner Sphere.

That’s part of why we are doing this thought exercise, the RasDom is poised to be able to do this. They have the manufacturing and man power. Even the Wolf ilClan/Star League can’t say it has any of those, with an emphasis on them not having man power. No other clan power is in a position to do it, 2 former clans are galaxies in size. CHH and the Ravens don’t have people to do it.

[nova_dew]

[snip]

Why do i keep messing up numbers atm, my apologies, my brain is not at it's best atm

[Minemech]

 The Snow Ravens need to learn how to play the major periphery power game, something they seem to be doing. Having the Bears as an ally is helpful for this. They are not in a high priority area for the most part, which gives them a lower profile.

 The Horses are likely viewed as a bandit kingdom, which will afford them some protection from conquest.
 

[tassa_kay]

Having the Bears as an ally is helpful for this.

What makes you think they're allies? The Snow Ravens haven't had any meaningful contact with the Bears on this level in nearly a century. Plus there's the fact that the Ravens are part of the "Star League" and the Bears aren't.

The Horses are likely viewed as a bandit kingdom

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case. They're still Clan, and the Bears still Trial with them as such.

[Minemech]

 I do not think that the Lyran Commonwealth, or any other Successor State cares terribly much if the Horses are considered a Clan by other Clans. As far as a Great House is concerned, the Horses are a fledgling power who has been losing battles to other such powers. They can become something, much like a few periphery states did over time, and they do control a world as important as Tamar. They only become an issue if they have time to grow into something.

[tassa_kay]

As far as a Great House is concerned, the Horses are a fledgling power

That's an unsubstantiated assumption at this point.

[Minemech]

That's an unsubstantiated assumption at this point.

Not really. In the 3050s, the term Clan meant something quite different than in the 3150s. The moment Victor realized that the Clans actually feared them was one point signifying this change.

[tassa_kay]

Not really. In the 3050s, the term Clan meant something quite different than in the 3150s. The moment Victor realized that the Clans actually feared them was one point signifying this change.

This still doesn't mean that the Houses view any of the Clans as "bandit kingdoms". That term has a specific meaning in BattleTech and the Horses are pointedly not on the list of bandit kingdoms as listed on Sarna.

[Minemech]

 Unfortunately, the sources it uses as reference are either quite dated, and/or do not cover it as an entity. The best argument for it not being a bandit Kingdom is its grasp on Tamar.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

What makes you think they're allies? The Snow Ravens haven't had any meaningful contact with the Bears on this level in nearly a century. Plus there's the fact that the Ravens are part of the "Star League" and the Bears aren't.

And whose fault is that Alaric lol

None of the (Inner Sphere) Clans are considered Bandits, and even the Scorpions are considered Clan but no one but the Foxes really talks to them anyways. The only possible Bandit Clan is the Republic of the Barrens’ (?) the psuedo proto-state Clan that the Horses sorta fund as a periphery tripwire force.

What I believe Minermech was trying to say is that thanks to their refusal of the IlClan the IlKhan may likely declare them bandits and dezgra… and who knows if the other Clans will follow it. On threat: He’ll who knows if the AML or Jiyi’s Falcons will even acknowledge the IlClan (or the Bears hopefully lol)

As far as ally’s go… in this day and age who knows: the IlClan has shaken things to their core. I don’t know who’s on what side anymore (even the fellow Bears!) but most of the Clans (pre-IlClan) stood alone except for a few rare cases of cooperation (Ravens and Bears of the Leviathan III, Horse Galaxies joining Falcon Mongols)…. A far cry from the 3067-3100 era I’d say.

[tassa_kay]

Unfortunately, the sources it uses as reference are either quite dated, and/or do not cover it as an entity. The best argument for it not being a bandit Kingdom is its grasp on Tamar.

The best arguments for it not being a bandit kingdom are 1) it's not in the Periphery, 2) it's not ruled by a despot (even as far as Clans go, the Horses are extremely lax when it comes to their civvies) and 3) its primary means of sustaining itself isn't, y'know, banditry.

In comparison to the LyrCom, sure, the Horses might be considered a "fledgling" power... a fledgling power that's controlled their OZ for damn near a century, holds dozens of worlds under their rule, possess a trio of WarShips (three more than they have currently, lol), and have already stampeded their way alongside the Falcons to Tharkad's doorstep. I doubt very much that Trillian is underestimating the Horses' capabilities and dismissing them as a bandit kingdom.

[Minemech]

The best arguments for it not being a bandit kingdom are 1) it's not in the Periphery, 2) it's not ruled by a despot (even as far as Clans go, the Horses are extremely lax when it comes to their civvies) and 3) its primary means of sustaining itself isn't, y'know, banditry.

It is in fact in the periphery, but it is not exclusively in the periphery.
 The second has truth to it, but it will not sell in the Inner Sphere.
 Many bandit states do not survive off of banditry, but rather gain off of it. The Horses have an interest in regional security which would be peculiar if they were an actual bandit kingdom. Being seen as one and actually being one are different things entirely.