Author Topic: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?  (Read 1543 times)

Church14

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #30 on: 23 September 2024, 14:42:51 »
The Regent is FINE.  (As a platform)
It's based on the Hauptmann, which was already exactly what you want an Assault-Omni to look like.
Assault mechs need firepower to be sure but durability is even more important, which is the 1 failing of the Direwolf, that pesky XL.
Oh. It's a great chassis. In universe it's an almost perfect mercenary assault omnimech. I just find it boring because from a gameplay POV, the chassis no discernable features. It's like if Spam was a mech. Works fine, can be made into stuff that is apparently good, but is a featureless block.

It's a purely personal thing that I like omnis with weird features to make them memorable. I love the fixed ML on the Avatar. The AES on the doloire. The inferno going compact gyro to stuff the CT with guns. The 'fixed' Warhawk TC.

Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #31 on: 23 September 2024, 14:53:32 »
It's like if Spam was a mech. Works fine, can be made into stuff that is apparently good, but is a featureless block.

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Hellraiser

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #32 on: 23 September 2024, 14:53:51 »
It's a purely personal thing that I like omnis with weird features to make them memorable. I love the fixed ML on the Avatar. The AES on the doloire. The inferno going compact gyro to stuff the CT with guns. The 'fixed' Warhawk TC.
I don't disagree even if each of those things "fails" as being what makes an omni an omni, lol.

There are actually far too many Omnimechs for my taste.
The entire point of the things is to make them "generic troopers w/ generic specialist rolls" weapon loadouts.

What I mean by that is you take a basic mech, and give it a Trooper, a Fire, a Urban-Assault loadout for each mission.
  But you don't make the entire chassis super specialized.

The ultra specialized stuff, like an IJJ TSM C3/Tag Spotting Headcapping melee monster isn't something I'm going to try to do on an Omni.
Better to just make a 55-ton specialist & call it a day.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #33 on: 23 September 2024, 15:08:15 »
The Sojourner is very much an omni.

You’re right.  Another brain fart on my part.  It’s fluffed as a newbie mech.  That, the oddball weight/speed combo for the Clans, and multiple iffy to bad configurations cause my brain to want to classify it as non-omni.

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And I'd say that AES is not widespread among the Clans because of the ubiquitous nature of the Targeting Computer, which is often a more efficient option since its size is based on the mass of the weapons tied to it rather than the size of the mech

AES is often lighter than a TC depending on how much weaponry is stuffed in the arm(s).  On a Panther/Wolfhound-ish light mech, the AES for one arm will cost one ton.  That arm can mount an ER PPC with a -1 to-hit modifier without paying two tons for a TC.  An Adder could put two ER PPCs in that same AES arm with the same modifier without paying three tons for a TC.  And that Adder could also stuff two LRM-20s in that arm and still get the same modifier, something a TC can’t help with.

I’m not saying AES beats TCs all the time.  AES won’t help a Warhawk Prime or C, for example.  But AES use is not an edge case thing, either.

An assault scale AES is 4 crits. Start putting Artemis V on missiles and you are highly limited in numbers.

It depends on the assault.  A 5/8 Gargoyle with AES, Artemis V, and an LRM-20 in each arm is a little scary.  That’s 40 “pulse” LRMs a turn on a heavy cav platform.  But on a 3/5 Dire Wolf, those arms are undergunned.

AES is not limited to assaults, anyway.  A medium can mount AES, dual Artemis V, and dual LRM-15s in each arm.  That’s 60 “pulse” LRMs a turn, which is probably smarter and more efficient than any assault platform can be for the same “pulse” LRM boat concept.

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TC is better for lasers and no real advantage for ACs.

It depends on the mech, not the weapons.  A heavy with the Hel Prime’s loadout of dual Gauss and dual ER Larges in the arms will pay three tons less for the -1 modifier using AES in each arm than using a TC.

Quote
A 4/6 XL. 90 tonner has less firepower than a Kingfisher,  which is already undergunned.

Those are two I have spent way too much time looking at.

A 90-tonner with Reinforced Structure, near-max Ferro-Lam Armor, an XLE, and an XLG can have the same free tonnage (about 30 tons) leftover for weapons and extra heat sinks as the canon Kingfisher.  If we’re not stupid about fixing too many heat sinks in the engine like the canon Kingfisher did, we can run configs like heat-neutral triple ER PPCs, 80 LRM tubes, an Ultra AC/20 and an LB 20-X AC together, or 70+% of the Mastodon Prime’s firepower:

Stymphalian —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=86183.0

The LRM20/ArtV/AES in the Doloire C is 10 crits. So yeah, you're doing quality over quantity there.

The weird thing is that we’re seeing these interesting or effective Clantech combos show up on Spheroid designs, not Clan designs.  And in the ilClan Era, to boot.

I humbly disagree.

In all my years of custom mech design I don't think I've ever put TSM on an Omni.
Why?
It takes up space & doesn't save tonnage.

Yes and no.  I sound like a broken record, but it again depends on the design.

TSM on a fast assault, big gun omni that has a lot of crits tied up in XLE, endo, and ferro-fibrous is probably a waste of BV.

But on a highly mobile, medium omni designed for close/melee combat?  A TSM design like the one below is pretty dangerous and turning it into an omni with 7MP jump configs using standard jump jets and more weapons or talons or claws is fairly straightforward.

Wolf Hawk —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=86076.0

Maybe an omni that specialized in close/melee combat is too limiting for an omni, but it would also be cool to have in the canon and the Clan judicial system of augmented personal combat trials sorta screams for such a design.

Regardless, whether it’s an omni or several standard totem mechs, after a century or more of contact, my point is that TSM should be seeing more and more effective use among the Clanners than the Kontio, Jade Hawk, and Skinwalker-XP.

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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #34 on: 23 September 2024, 15:11:01 »
This drives me nuts that the designs are serving the artwork — this deal with the quadvees, all the suboptimal/bad designs for the sake of WYSIWYG in the RecGuides — instead of the other way around.
Agreed 100% on this.  Some of the RecGuide T configs going to really bizarre places just to preserve WYSIWYG...when this isn't a WYSIWYG game!  BT has never required minis to match the record sheet.  You don't even have to use the same mech!  I proxied a Banshee with an Awesome last time I played, IIRC.  I don't get it.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2024, 22:54:41 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Jellico

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #35 on: 23 September 2024, 18:21:16 »
I humbly disagree.

In all my years of custom mech design I don't think I've ever put TSM on an Omni.
Why?
It takes up space & doesn't save tonnage.
Which means its basically the LAST thing you want on an OMNI-mech.
Omnimechs need Large amounts of Pod Space & Free Crits.   That is what they are there for.
To be a flexible chassis & allow for multiple weapon loads.
They don't need things that just suck up crits & offer nothing "space/tonnage related back".

For the record, I am not bashing in ANY WAY on any of the above tech that you mentioned.
I'm only saying they don't belong on an OMNI-mech (for the most part)

Each of these "specialist" technologies mentioned above would be far better used on a standard Battlemech that is 25% cheaper & built for a single chassis customized load out specialist build.
I think the Omni part is very important. You have to make allowances for other variants. The AES that gets you pulse missiles ruins your AC20 arm.

There are no right answers though some answers are better than others. Eg I should have looked into vibroblades earlier to get around Omni TSM.

Church14

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #36 on: 23 September 2024, 22:26:45 »
The weird thing is that we’re seeing these interesting or effective Clantech combos show up on Spheroid designs, not Clan designs.  And in the ilClan Era, to boot.

I'm firmly convinced the scariest mechs in a BV balanced environment are these new mixtech monsters. Keeps BV into a good realm by using just enough clanSpec to get scary things working and nothing more.

Gaiiten

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #37 on: 24 September 2024, 07:12:37 »
Some more "Zombie" Omnimechs would be appreciated.
No XL engines (either standard or compact engine), reinforced internal structure, special armors, maybe heavy duty gyro.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #38 on: 24 September 2024, 09:27:39 »
Not going to have much firepower will all of that together.  Also, an armored Compact Gyro is both less mass and more durable than a heavy duty gyro.
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Gaiiten

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #39 on: 24 September 2024, 10:33:19 »
Not going to have much firepower will all of that together.  Also, an armored Compact Gyro is both less mass and more durable than a heavy duty gyro.
Using all these components would be an overkill, but some will make the Mech much durable.
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Ruger

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #40 on: 24 September 2024, 11:42:23 »
Not going to have much firepower will all of that together.  Also, an armored Compact Gyro is both less mass and more durable than a heavy duty gyro.

I love armored compact gyro’s.

Also, armored XL engines.

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #41 on: 24 September 2024, 19:39:49 »
Also, an armored Compact Gyro is both less mass and more durable than a heavy duty gyro.
Agreed, but Armored Components gets into a different "rules" level, so, I can see why HD Gyros still have a place.
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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #42 on: 24 September 2024, 19:45:51 »
Using all these components would be an overkill, but some will make the Mech much durable.

Totally agree.

Something like the Archangel w/ both Compact Engine AND Compact Gyro starts to eat into tonnage and doesn't counter fully the crits from using Endo too.
Especially since once you get into the CT to actually crit them, there is only so much IS to go through and then your cored anyway.
But if your adding some small bits here & there to different models, you can still save both the Tonnage & the Crit Space to make an OMNI an OMNI.
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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #43 on: 24 September 2024, 19:47:32 »
Also, armored XL engines.

I'm not so sure about this.
I feel like I lose far more mechs to full side torso destruction of the XL v/s crit hunting for the 3 hits.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #44 on: 24 September 2024, 19:50:24 »
Some more "Zombie" Omnimechs would be appreciated.
No XL engines (either standard or compact engine), reinforced internal structure, special armors, maybe heavy duty gyro.

Come to think of it, the Osteon falls into this category pretty heavily.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #45 on: 24 September 2024, 20:22:10 »
Come to think of it, the Osteon falls into this category pretty heavily.

By design, those things are damn near indestructible. We had one absorb an orbital HPPC strike and only go down due to engine crits.

Hellraiser

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #46 on: 24 September 2024, 22:43:16 »
We had one absorb an orbital HPPC strike and only go down due to engine crits.
Okay, I'm impressed. 
I mean, 150 damage isn't THAT much in terms of the total mech, but really, I'm yeah, I'm impressed just by still being standing & not liquified like a Light/Medium would be.
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Starfury

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #47 on: 03 October 2024, 23:33:42 »
There's also the Alpha Wolf, one of the first assault class 4/6 Omnis will stealth armor.

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #48 on: 04 October 2024, 00:40:56 »
I wonder if the Gladiator II will ever make it to canon?
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idea weenie

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #49 on: 05 October 2024, 18:57:12 »
I wonder if the Gladiator II will ever make it to canon?

Can't find it off-hand, what is the Gladiator II like?  (I assume that DHS are standard, but what else gets changed)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #50 on: 05 October 2024, 19:19:50 »
Nobody but its creator knows, it hasn't been printed.  It was mentioned on the forums years ago as something that could potentially have made it to TRO 3145 The Clans but was rejected and the Kodiak II was taken instead.  All that's been said is that it would have been an upgrade/replacement of the Gladiator omnimech the same way the Loki II and Thor II were for the original 3050 versions.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Post-Jihad, what 4/6 assault class omnimechs are in production?
« Reply #51 on: 05 October 2024, 21:09:06 »
Nobody but its creator knows, it hasn't been printed.  It was mentioned on the forums years ago as something that could potentially have made it to TRO 3145 The Clans but was rejected and the Kodiak II was taken instead.  All that's been said is that it would have been an upgrade/replacement of the Gladiator omnimech the same way the Loki II and Thor II were for the original 3050 versions.

so proably drops the fixed jump jets and fixed MASC, and eaither replaces the FFA with Endosteel, or keeps the FFA and goes to a reinforced internals
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