Author Topic: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?  (Read 15100 times)

Gäiten

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #90 on: 18 March 2014, 13:24:30 »
Each of the abandoned/no longer produced mechs had a specific explanation given for why that happened. In some cases it was the taint of the original designing Clan. For others the factories were all destroyed. And in the waste not nature of the Clans, mechs that duplicated the functionality of other mechs sometimes went out of production to not waste resources.
Very reasonable. IMHO there are far too many designs left among the Hoemclans, fewer would be much better for their logistics.

Archangel

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #91 on: 18 March 2014, 14:43:10 »
I'm not sure what example you're speaking of, and don't have the time on my lunch break to look it up right now, but in general Clan combat has plenty of avenues to make this happen.

I believe he is talking 3078 fight on Hector where a salvo from a Matador dropped half the seventy-third Cobra Guards into the ravine.  The survivors declared the Scorpions dezgra before destroying the remaining 1st Cateran Cluster.  It was after they were victorious that the Cobras would discover that the Scorpions had been experimenting with blending ELH genes into their Bloodlines and led to their Abjuration. (WoR, p157-158)

As far as the results are concerned, we don't know what condition the 1st Cateran Cluster was before the battle (after having sustained losses in other WoR battles) or how many casualties the unit sustained in the battle before the bridge was destroyed but the biggest factor is probably the fact that the unit isn't equipped for slug matches fielding fewer Mechs in favor of more Elementals and Aerospace Fighters.  In addition saKhan Rood had assigned inferior BattleMechs and vehicles to the Cateran cluster prior to the battle after retaking Waypoint 531 (WoR, p130).
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cold1

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #92 on: 18 March 2014, 14:59:32 »
Never said they rejected Kerensky's vision.

The 'rejection' I was referring to was rejecting the Invader Clans from their safe little universe.

I'm not going to lie, I was fishing for info. :)

And there is nothing safe in the BT universe, I think it's cuz of the writers


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Akalabeth

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #93 on: 18 March 2014, 18:55:49 »
The Invaders changed because they reconnected with the Inner Sphere; the Homeworlds did not, and due to the Clan way of life, either refused to believe the Invaders' descriptions or warily questioned it. As I saw it, the Homeworlds were in a state of stagnant culture; only a seismic cataclysmic event (or series therein) would bring about change.

Hmmn, I disagree on the stagnant front. Instead I think it's simply a case of FASA created too many factions and there's only so much word count to go around. So the homeworld clans were all defined by a handful of events over hundreds of years that defined their lasting relationships and remained for the most part 2-dimensional characters. The only real air time they got was during the Great Refusal, and even then the role of most homeworlders was to lose regardless of how skilled they were said to be in the field manuals.

It's akin to the Federated Suns and Combine relationship being defined by Kentares, and even the Draconis combine's early image likewise being defined by Kentares. It worked at the time because of the limited amount of words available. Painted DC as the bad guy, etcetera. But then more work was done and they were further fleshed out.

Anyway, if there are too many factions to give all the factions depth then the number should continue to be pruned down in my opinion.


I'm not sure what example you're speaking of, and don't have the time on my lunch break to look it up right now, but in general Clan combat has plenty of avenues to make this happen.

If this battle is being fought under Zell, the bridge collapsing could motivate the Cobras to break Zell (if it wasn't already broken) and start massing fire, enabling them to win more quickly. Even without Zell, seeing so many of your clansmen taken out with a cowardly attack (shooting out the bridge instead of attacking directly after 2 previous direct attacks had failed) would have enraged the Cobras to the point where they did not care what further damage or losses they took, so long as they won. Also, a sudden change in tactics (all-out attack after holding position for a while) could have caught the Scorpions out of position to be able to stop a concentrated attack from the Cobras , even with superior numbers. And lastly, if the Cobras had bid down their forces initially, they could have called in the remainder of their force, deciding that winning was more important than the loss of honor for calling in more forces.

Or, if half a formation was on the bridge and if that bridge was close enough to the frontlines to be hit by Scorpion weapons fire then it implies the two clans are on different sides of the bridge which makes a sudden counter attack by the now stranded Cobras impossible.

In any case I know there are multiple reasons for why it could happen, but the point is from my reading of it there's not enough information to convince me of the implied outcome.


I think my biggest problem with the book is that I just don't get it. I keep reading but I don't know what's going on because there are too many threads happening at the same time and not enough information on any of them. It's written in such a way that I think you need an intimate knowledge of both the homeworlds and the forces of each clan to appreciate what's happening. I suppose it doesn't help that I read the first half of it months ago and am only picking it up again but I don't think that would really affect my perception of it.

It's like there's a naval battle between two factions and ships are lost on both sides, but in some cases the class of the ships aren't even mentioned so I don't know if it's big or small or whether those losses are important relative to the whole fleet. In most cases I don't even know where the rest of the fleet even is.

Heck at one point, there's a paragraph about the Adders being in a tight spot and their choosing not to tell the Steel Vipers. In another instance not long after we hear about the Adders having the luxury of keeping a naval blockade on the dead world of York. Which is odd because I hear about the Burrocks taking some Adder ships with them, and the Adders fighting the Snow Raven or somesuch and the Adders escorting ships to attack Nouveaux Paris or whatnot and we also hear about the Blood Spirit warships running rampant and destroying one of their enclaves from orbit and yet they're still blockading a dead world (which then destroys a Diamond Shark convoy).

So does it makes sense? I dunno, maybe they have a big enough fleet that they'll continue to blockade york regardless of their other problems but without following and tracking every thread, from initial reading it doesn't make sense. And I could pull out the Field Manual and look things up and follow everything that's happening but then I'm researching the facts as they happen rather than be engrossed in the story and that's my main problem with it. I want to be to able to just read a book and get in the zone and understand it without referencing an appendices or other source material because doing that disrupts the experience.

I think Catalyst did the best they could given the word count and the story needed to be told but it's failed to click with me.


cold1

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #94 on: 18 March 2014, 19:51:20 »
The Adders had the largest fleet in the homeworlds... 28 ships maybe?  I'll get corrected if that's wrong.  But enough ships to be in 3-4 places at once.

You're missing dates on all those events as well.  Might be pertinent to go back and look at the dates because some of those things happen months apart but only a few systems away.  The Adders could easily fight one of those engagements, return to Sheridan to rearm a ship then send it else where.

The interwoven threads and massive number of units serve to give a picture of how massive and all encompassing the wars were.  It was all out war and chaos.  In some cases clan A beats clan B only for clan C to immediately drop in on them and then beat clan A.  In one instance clan B regroups then beats clan C after they beat clan A.  It's total insanity, and that was the intent.


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GhostBear

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #95 on: 18 March 2014, 20:10:45 »
The interwoven threads and massive number of units serve to give a picture of how massive and all encompassing the wars were.  It was all out war and chaos.  In some cases clan A beats clan B only for clan C to immediately drop in on them and then beat clan A.  In one instance clan B regroups then beats clan C after they beat clan A.  It's total insanity, and that was the intent.

The insanity was a nice aftereffect; the main reason I didn't do it linearly by Clan was that it was incredibly difficult to write it in that manner.
Eh.

cold1

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #96 on: 19 March 2014, 05:21:12 »
It worked out well. Some sections of the book truly do overwhelm you with the chaos.  In re-reads I've gone through sections to count how many ships/units fought or were destroyed in a matter of a few pages.

In some places the rapid series of events actually serves to make the reading seem to speed up as the chaos magnifies.  In some spots it then transfers into less intense side bars or less chaotic moments.  These transitions actually help to feel the chaos.


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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #97 on: 19 March 2014, 05:37:17 »
Each of the abandoned/no longer produced mechs had a specific explanation given for why that happened. In some cases it was the taint of the original designing Clan. For others the factories were all destroyed. And in the waste not nature of the Clans, mechs that duplicated the functionality of other mechs sometimes went out of production to not waste resources.

I'm sure Ben and Paul will back me up on this, but all Clans, even the homeworld Clans, all of them use vehicles in their touman. For most Clans, vehicles are only used in the second line forces or as place holders in front line forces when there aren't enough mechs.

I stand corrected on the mechs part. But out of the Stone Lions, none of the other Clans use vehicles in their frontline forces i.e. those that actually form the first wave of any renewed invasion and would be the ones encountered.

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #98 on: 19 March 2014, 05:42:42 »
Generally correct, but the Homeclans did not kill all their scientists. Many are left and, imho, recruiting actively new ones among the technican caste could be a very promising way to get new scientists.

And as in WoR is written, the real new researchment among the Clans only begun after Tukkayyid. Before they did almost no basic researchment in many scientific areas besides genetics. For the scientists this new beginning was like they had to start from a scratch. Till the WoR there were 15 years, you may think what might be possible what a motivated scientist caste could achieve from 3090 till 3145 ...

That the Clans have ever been numerically far inferior to the IS, but have had a qualitative advantage, imho, has been something I like very much ingame.

I am very excited about new ideas and new developments too, but then I think realistically and realize all the remaining scientists don't just have to jump-start the breeding programs, they have to be involved in rebuilding infrastructure and more mundane day-to-day tasks because of all the destruction. They also have smaller populations to draw the lower castes from, and they have to do everything under closer scrutiny by the Warriors than before. Besides the shattered infrastructure just to keep civilization going, they have to focus on restoring war production just to get their toumans back in shape. After that, before considering new ideas, the Homies will have to grow their people and number of colonies again etc. I think it'll be a long time for the scientists to start new things again rather than fixing what's broke.

cold1

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #99 on: 19 March 2014, 07:37:53 »
Simple fix to the people problem; make more.  The clans don't wait for population growth, they create it.

Why was cleaning up the legacies a priority?  Well to make new clean warriors (and just how dumbed down were the genes the last 40 years???). But once they are clean you can make more batches of sibkos.  You certainly have some battle hardened vets to train them.  We know only about 10-20% will test in as warriors, well there are your lower castes.  Most mech and ASF washouts become techs or scientists anyway.  Triple the sibkos, triple those populations.

Additionally, test for aptitude early in the sibkos.  This dude is struggling to be a warrior but he's smarter than hell, scientist right then and there.  No reason to wait for him to fail later.

Increase freeborn breeding.  Put your lower castes to work.  Have the smart ones make more babies to increase the likelihood of more scientists.

Promote the scientists somewhat like the Sharks do the merchants.  I'm sure they will be watched very closely now, but make them important and make lower caste members strive to become scientists. 

Getting more people is probably the smallest problem the homeworlds have.


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Jarvis

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #100 on: 19 March 2014, 08:11:06 »
Also for me, more than anything it was the arbitrary way that the Spirits were killed-off in the appendix that really irritated.  It almost felt like the main story got written and then someone realizes there were too many clans left.  Same for the Spirits attacking the Vipers.  Another clan needed destroying, so lets arbitrarily weaken the Spirits.

However, what is even more irritating is the removal of my favorite clan from the universe completely.  You invest time and resources buying Battletech products, and then suddenly you have no reason to do this anymore because your faction ceases to exist.  Now if they were defeated and marginalized, getting the odd mention in some Battletech product I could accept that and would still buy product.  But to have them wiped out completely!  Not cool.  Why not let one of the remaining factions absorb them in some fashion, or have the survivors eventually form a cluster in a homeworld clan's galaxy?  Anything would be nice, just throw me a bone here guys.

And yes, this is a plea for some continued Spirit presence in some form in the Battletech universe.

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #101 on: 19 March 2014, 08:37:13 »
Simple fix to the people problem; make more.  The clans don't wait for population growth, they create it.

Why was cleaning up the legacies a priority?  Well to make new clean warriors (and just how dumbed down were the genes the last 40 years???). But once they are clean you can make more batches of sibkos.  You certainly have some battle hardened vets to train them.  We know only about 10-20% will test in as warriors, well there are your lower castes.  Most mech and ASF washouts become techs or scientists anyway.  Triple the sibkos, triple those populations.

Additionally, test for aptitude early in the sibkos.  This dude is struggling to be a warrior but he's smarter than hell, scientist right then and there.  No reason to wait for him to fail later.

Increase freeborn breeding.  Put your lower castes to work.  Have the smart ones make more babies to increase the likelihood of more scientists.

Promote the scientists somewhat like the Sharks do the merchants.  I'm sure they will be watched very closely now, but make them important and make lower caste members strive to become scientists. 

Getting more people is probably the smallest problem the homeworlds have.

The Home Clans had the smallest populations before the Jihad out of all major factions. Wars of Reaving depopulated a lot. They're not clone factories. Making more people requires a long time, especially freeborns. Consider they had 2 centuries to grow all the populations they wanted yet most Clans only had a couple hundred million by the mid-31st century. Imagine the numbers after Wars of Reaving, which must also factor in the lack of isorla from a typical Clan conflict because of the exterminations and genocides.

Gaiiten

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #102 on: 19 March 2014, 10:34:00 »
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Imagine the numbers after Wars of Reaving, which must also factor in the lack of isorla from a typical Clan conflict because of the exterminations and genocides.

Given my calculations the Homeworlds lost 50-60% of their population due the WoR. Maybe the most serious losses of any conflict in BT universe so far.

However, do the Homeclans need so many people?

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Why not let one of the remaining factions absorb them in some fashion, or have the survivors eventually form a cluster in a homeworld clan's galaxy?  Anything would be nice, just throw me a bone here guys.

The Adders won the right to absorb the Spirits. while they destroyed anything on the Colleen systems, the Spirit enclaves  on Strana Mechty (where their main genetic repository was located) was not reported as being destroyed. So it is likely that the genetic material of the Spirits is now in the hands of the Star Adders.

Who may decide to use them for breeding new warriors for the Adder Clan.
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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #103 on: 19 March 2014, 11:05:55 »
Highly unlikely. They paid close attention to bombard the Colleen repository to ensure the Spirits would never rise again. To use their Strana Mechty repository would be nonsensical.

cold1

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #104 on: 19 March 2014, 12:46:54 »
Highly unlikely. They paid close attention to bombard the Colleen repository to ensure the Spirits would never rise again. To use their Strana Mechty repository would be nonsensical.

The Spirits had almost completely untainted legacies.  They also had the best Proto legacies.  It is worth mentioning that several Spirit Bloodhouse had a long history of being kickass warriors.

Those legacies are worth something.  The Adders might not use them but they would certainly trade them.  The Lions and Coyotes could both use some more legacies.

I doubt the Adders destroyed them.  I bet we see them again.


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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #105 on: 19 March 2014, 14:22:04 »
Betcha we don't. :D
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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #106 on: 19 March 2014, 16:32:17 »
The Adders won the right to absorb the Spirits. while they destroyed anything on the Colleen systems, the Spirit enclaves  on Strana Mechty (where their main genetic repository was located) was not reported as being destroyed. So it is likely that the genetic material of the Spirits is now in the hands of the Star Adders.

The Spirits' Strana Mechty enclave was 'wiped out' by the Star Adders.  Sounds pretty clear to me.  Besides which the Spirits were using the Strana Mechty genetic facilities to cleanse those bloodlines that were tainted by the Society.

The Spirits had almost completely untainted legacies.  They also had the best Proto legacies.  It is worth mentioning that several Spirit Bloodhouse had a long history of being kickass warriors.

The Society tainted several Blood Spirit genetic legacies which is why their Clan Council extended the ban on using the Boques, Campbell, Church and Johns legacies until they were cleansed.  As far as the other Clans are concerned, the remaining legacies became tainted by the surviving Spirit Warriors' actions during their final stand in the Colleen system.

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Those legacies are worth something.  The Adders might not use them but they would certainly trade them.  The Lions and Coyotes could both use some more legacies.

The Star Adders aren't going to waste the time and energy to bother checking to see which legacies are clean and which are tainted.  Far easier to simply destroy any seized Spirit legacies.
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cold1

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #107 on: 19 March 2014, 16:57:05 »
Betcha we don't. :D

I have a feeling the next time we see the Stone Lions there will be some Spirit bloodnames in there... they already have all their favorite mechs.

The clans desperately need every available clean legacy to grow.  I would not be surprised if he see legacies from dead clans show up.


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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #108 on: 19 March 2014, 17:25:55 »
I once held the opinion that the Star Adders would never let the Blood Spirit legacies go, not to anyone.  But that was three or four days ago.  ;D  I have evolved a bit.  Now I'm leaning back toward "I don't know".  Taming the Spirit bloodlines through the Lions is a fun concept, regardless if that happens or not, though.

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #109 on: 19 March 2014, 19:18:24 »
I have a feeling the next time we see the Stone Lions there will be some Spirit bloodnames in there... they already have all their favorite mechs.

Highly unlikely.  The only Spirit legacies that might possibly be used would be those taken prior to the WoR.  Given their recent troubles with the Burrocks and the clear refusal of captured Spirit warriors to acknowledge their new Clan, the Star Adders would have no reason to even attempt to take Spirit legacies intact.  Not to mention waste the time and effort to determine which ones are still contaminated.

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The clans desperately need every available clean legacy to grow.  I would not be surprised if he see legacies from dead clans show up.

They have plenty of other legacies to choose from (or trial for) that are far more palatable than tainted legacies from a fallen Clan.
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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #110 on: 19 March 2014, 21:08:55 »
Pretty sure Archangel has the right of it here. I don't have anything to add other than I agree 100% with him, and because of the reasons he provided. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #111 on: 20 March 2014, 00:21:29 »
The Adders had the largest fleet in the homeworlds... 28 ships maybe?  I'll get corrected if that's wrong.  But enough ships to be in 3-4 places at once.

You're missing dates on all those events as well.  Might be pertinent to go back and look at the dates because some of those things happen months apart but only a few systems away.  The Adders could easily fight one of those engagements, return to Sheridan to rearm a ship then send it else where.

The interwoven threads and massive number of units serve to give a picture of how massive and all encompassing the wars were.  It was all out war and chaos.  In some cases clan A beats clan B only for clan C to immediately drop in on them and then beat clan A.  In one instance clan B regroups then beats clan C after they beat clan A.  It's total insanity, and that was the intent.

A damaged warship should take months or years to repair, not just a matter of weeks. One hears about ships in WW2 for example that are laid up getting refitted or repaired for large portions of the war, only to come out after months and get hit again or whatnot. WW2 is not battletech the comparison is not without validity.

Either way, personally I didn't find the format  to my liking. Of the sourcebooks Catalyst has put out the Historicals for Operation Klondike and Reunification War were my favourites, and I suspect I enjoyed both of those because the focus on specific combatants whether its invasion of a state or specific invasions of each pentagon world.

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Re: Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?
« Reply #112 on: 20 March 2014, 00:58:28 »
A damaged warship should take months or years to repair, not just a matter of weeks. One hears about ships in WW2 for example that are laid up getting refitted or repaired for large portions of the war, only to come out after months and get hit again or whatnot. WW2 is not battletech the comparison is not without validity.

I believe that several WarShips were scuttled because their respective owners didn't have the time/resources to repair them and to prevent a rival Clan from salvaging them.
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