So the celestial series... how to and why?

[Church14]

Here is the official ruling

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=31997.msg762243#msg762243

Nice. +1

[Tangoforone]

Well now I know why Berith and his Merry Band of Misfits have such a high killing potential.  Bonuses to hit with everything they do.  Low gunnery skills, implants, and VSPLS, and sometimes targeting computers.  And Clanners thought they were the cool stuff with their pulse lasers and targeting computers.  Might as well send the Navy Seals against Cavemen.  Then they add the Pain Shunts and ignore pain like a drugged up nightmare monster.

[Church14]

Conservatively, the Opacus were about 25k BV for their 6 mechs.

Assumptions for that #:
-2/3 pilots before bVDNI
-All mechs are in one C3 network
-I didn’t include that Triple core processor or whatever it’s called to get the initiative buff.
-I didn’t include pain shunts.

So 25k BV is a very low estimate for that unit.

[Firesprocket]

25k would seem to be in the right ball park.  If you start giving them all BVDNI and/or other implants it quickly escalates into the 40k range and beyond.

[Greatclub]

Gunneries 1 3 3 4 3 4

Pilotings 2 3 2 4 3 1

2 vdni, 3 bvdni, 1 tcp, 4 pain shunt.

One gal has no applicable cyber. Her special abilities make her an utter PITA though.

[Church14]

Gunneries 1 3 3 4 3 4

Pilotings 2 3 2 4 3 1

2 vdni, 3 bvdni, 1 tcp, 4 pain shunt.

One gal has no applicable cyber. Her special abilities make her an utter PITA though.

Where’s this come from? If it’s any kind of official then I’m all for it

[Lorcan Nagle]

Where’s this come from? If it’s any kind of official then I’m all for it

Starterbook: Wolf and Blake has the skills and implant lists for each member of the Opacus and Venatori

[Church14]

Yeah. I just grabbed the PDF because I’ve burned $18 on worse things. Readjusting, taking P/G values, TCP, Pain Shunt, VDNI, bVDNI into account:

25979BV for the Opacus.
Berith is 7.4k BV alone.

[grimlock1]

Starterbook: Wolf and Blake has the skills and implant lists for each member of the Opacus and Venatori

All the Opacus are beasts in that book.  Berith has a gun skill of0 with his bVDNI, a +2 init buff, and automatic success on Avoid Shutdown rolls!

[Church14]

Where auto success on shutdown rolls come from?

[niall78]

All the Opacus are beasts in that book.  Berith has a gun skill of0 with his bVDNI, a +2 init buff, and automatic success on Avoid Shutdown rolls!

He's going to need to be a beast in a BV balanced fight.

MD players face the same problem Clanners face multiplied by two but with much worse cannon mechs. In a BV matched fight they will simply evaporate due to facing massively superior numbers. Clanners can negate that to a certain extent by using their weapons range advantage. MD can't pull that trick so well.

Playing MD in the Jihad Era using BV balancing is by far the hardest 'setting' in Battletech for a player.   

[dgorsman]

In that instance, I think BV should be used in only the grossed sense.  MD weren't noted for their sense of fair play.  Another reason why MD aren't recommended for general, straight-up play.

[niall78]

In that instance, I think BV should be used in only the grossed sense.  MD weren't noted for their sense of fair play.  Another reason why MD aren't recommended for general, straight-up play.

I think they are probably the scariest and most fun Op-For in the game. For exactly the reasons you give. They hit hard, fast and dirty. A Shadow Division dropping on a regiment or two of regular House or militia units? Forget about it - you don't even need to roll the dice.

But I've always contended they should stay as an GM controlled Op-For. Even a very good player will have major difficulty running them with cannon units in a BV balanced play setting.

[Sir Chaos]

Well now I know why Berith and his Merry Band of Misfits have such a high killing potential.  Bonuses to hit with everything they do.  Low gunnery skills, implants, and VSPLS, and sometimes targeting computers.  And Clanners thought they were the cool stuff with their pulse lasers and targeting computers.  Might as well send the Navy Seals against Cavemen.  Then they add the Pain Shunts and ignore pain like a drugged up nightmare monster.

Pain Shunts make a MASSIVE difference - they negate pilot damage from internals, which is a huge drawback for VDNI/BVDNI, and eliminates consciousness checks.

Add TSM (no pilot damage from falling) and/or Dermal Armor (no pilot damage from head hits), and the only way to kill them is a cockpit crit (or destroying the head outright, of course).

[grimlock1]

Where auto success on shutdown rolls come from?

Starterbook Wolf and Blake, pg 62, and IO pg 82, although IO goes into more detail regarding how it behaves WRT ECM.

Its a dang handy ability to have, especially when you look at what a heat hog his custom Archangel can be. A running alpha will put that mech at +21 heat and most folks looking at a 6+ Avoid shutdown roll.  If there's any leftover heat from last turn, make that a 8+.  Berith can ignore that and the +3 To Hit will only degrade him to Veteran level gunnery.  Although the -4 MP means his basically driving a turret that can at least in theory fail a PSR.

[niall78]

Starterbook Wolf and Blake, pg 62, and IO pg 82, although IO goes into more detail regarding how it behaves WRT ECM.

Its a dang handy ability to have, especially when you look at what a heat hog his custom Archangel can be. A running alpha will put that mech at +21 heat and most folks looking at a 6+ Avoid shutdown roll.  If there's any leftover heat from last turn, make that a 8+.  Berith can ignore that and the +3 To Hit will only degrade him to Veteran level gunnery.  Although the -4 MP means his basically driving a turret that can at least in theory fail a PSR.

You are adding huge amount of 'randomness' to your game just playing those odds. At some stage the dice will say "no".

As a turret with the heat gain the BV difference will blow the MD player off the board.

[Weirdo]

Which means Berith will have to use his brain(both of them), and move to isolate enemies so that only a fraction of them can engage him at any time. This means only engaging under favorable circumstances, and using that initiative bonus to its full extent.

You want a nightmare? Face the Manei Domini in a BV fight...in a city.

[Colt Ward]

Well, nothing says you HAVE to do that heat load . . . but it does mean if you need to hit the big red button, its going to happen.  I mean, 50+ points of damage (20/10/10/10/mvspl) is not something most mechs can just shrug off . . . especially that 20 point hit which will go internal on a lot of mechs in a lot of places.

Celestials & MH- particularly the set mentioned, IMO DO have a effective range advantage that is better than the Clans . . . b/c C3i.  Firing a HPPC at 18 or 17 hexes from a heavy or assault will have a range advantage with the nearest C3i being a spotter is able to get down to short range while even the Clan force (w/o Nova CEWS) will still be getting +2 for med, or at the 17/18 range equivalent +4 TH for most weapons.

Might have to try the OV vs a House line battalion on MM this weekend.

[Tangoforone]

Out of curiosity, did the OV ever get into combat with a Clan force?  I know their fight against the Black Widow Company, but I mean actual Clan front line omnis.  Obviously we can hand wave that they faced that one force that one time on that one planet, but I am curious if there are any situations that were recorded where they fought against the Clans and, if so, how did they perform.

Also, I had heard that the Venatori (Berith and implant friends) whacked the Opacus group at some point near the end.  But now I can't remember where I heard that; I thought I read on Sarna that Berith decided the implant-free group weren't chaotic-neutral enough for the adventuring party, so he and friends ended them in an ambush. However reading through their page I don't see anything about it.  Did that happen, or was their entire group taken out with the rest of the 52nd on Gibson?

[Colt Ward]

He did not end on Gibson . . .

Where they along for the adventure to Arc Royal?

[niall78]

Well, nothing says you HAVE to do that heat load . . . but it does mean if you need to hit the big red button, its going to happen.  I mean, 50+ points of damage (20/10/10/10/mvspl) is not something most mechs can just shrug off . . . especially that 20 point hit which will go internal on a lot of mechs in a lot of places.

Celestials & MH- particularly the set mentioned, IMO DO have a effective range advantage that is better than the Clans . . . b/c C3i.  Firing a HPPC at 18 or 17 hexes from a heavy or assault will have a range advantage with the nearest C3i being a spotter is able to get down to short range while even the Clan force (w/o Nova CEWS) will still be getting +2 for med, or at the 17/18 range equivalent +4 TH for most weapons.

Might have to try the OV vs a House line battalion on MM this weekend.

I'd discount C3i nearly completely in a jihad era battle because the field will be carpeted in ECM.

I'll bring four ECM Pegasus for the cost of half an MD Celestial and every other mech I bring will also rock one. C3i massively handicaps an MD force BV wise. Especially in an era where counter measures are plentiful and cheap.

[niall78]

Which means Berith will have to use his brain(both of them), and move to isolate enemies so that only a fraction of them can engage him at any time. This means only engaging under favorable circumstances, and using that initiative bonus to its full extent.

You want a nightmare? Face the Manei Domini in a BV fight...in a city.

If Berith is in range he will be facing so much return firepower at his BV that he won't be around long.

Anyone facing Clan, MD or C3/C3i nets will be all over a range player like a rash. They aren't going to let you dictate range and are going to double and triple tackle you rather than giving you one mech at a time. They will exploit their numbers advantage for all it is worth.

[Weirdo]

I'm not talking about range, I'm talking about cover. Because Berith is going to be winning initiative most of the time, he's going to know which side of the hill/building/woods most of your force is on. I highly doubt he will also be on that side. He'll be on the side with less enemies, rapidly making that number even smaller. A perfectly flat field where entire companies can focus their fire easily? He's probably on the next continent over.

[dgorsman]

I'm not talking about range, I'm talking about cover. Because Berith is going to be winning initiative most of the time, he's going to know which side of the hill/building/woods most of your force is on. I highly doubt he will also be on that side. He'll be on the side with less enemies, rapidly making that number even smaller. A perfectly flat field where entire companies can focus their fire easily? He's probably on the next continent over.

Or he's standing juuuust out of range as bait.  Because between him and the enemy is a deep minefield, with registered artillery.  And air support.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

At which time you break out the Urbanmech...

[Greatclub]

I'd discount C3i nearly completely in a jihad era battle because the field will be carpeted in ECM.

I'll bring four ECM Pegasus for the cost of half an MD Celestial and every other mech I bring will also rock one. C3i massively handicaps an MD force BV wise. Especially in an era where counter measures are plentiful and cheap.

That isn't what wolf and blake has you fighting, however. The widows only have three ECM units out of the gate, one on a firefly, and getting a mech with one on the random opfor table isn't common. You know, like the forces the WOB would be fighting most of the time early Jihad.

If you're playing TacOps, there are the ECCM rules, and the OV have lots of ECM of their own. So yeah, they can pull off the C3i net fairly constantly.

[Weirdo]

At which time you break out the Urbanmech...

Well, that's just game over...

[Colt Ward]

That isn't what wolf and blake has you fighting, however. The widows only have three ECM units out of the gate, one on a firefly, and getting a mech with one on the random opfor table isn't common. You know, like the forces the WOB would be fighting most of the time early Jihad.

If you're playing TacOps, there are the ECCM rules, and the OV have lots of ECM of their own. So yeah, they can pull off the C3i net fairly constantly.

Yeah, ECCM should be TW rules IMO b/c it makes ECM too easy to counter the BV of C3.  And you are right, as OOC if you are facing WoB you are taking multiple ECM- but if you are rolling RATs, its not going to be too frequent.

[Church14]

I'd discount C3i nearly completely in a jihad era battle because the field will be carpeted in ECM.

I'll bring four ECM Pegasus for the cost of half an MD Celestial and every other mech I bring will also rock one. C3i massively handicaps an MD force BV wise. Especially in an era where counter measures are plentiful and cheap.

I mean, hard counters designed specifically to go against a particular force would be effective against a particular force.

How common is ECM during the Jihad. 1 mech in 4? Higher, lower?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In terms of mech availability or which mechs are commonly used?