BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Foxx Ital on 08 February 2023, 16:58:58
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No longer shall we be divided!!! Untill the topic of does pineapple belong on pizza.
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No longer shall we be divided!!! Untill the topic of does pineapple belong on pizza.
When's the vote being held on that? :)
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PLEASE let's not bring that nonsense meme in here. Why people care so much about what other people choose to eat is utterly beyond me.
Also, I'll straight up fight a Trial of Annihilation against anyone who has a problem with me putting pineapples on MY pizza. Not Grievance, not Refusal... you're getting Annihilated.
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PLEASE let's not bring that nonsense meme in here. Why people care so much about what other people choose to eat is utterly beyond me.
Also, I'll straight up fight a Trial of Annihilation against anyone who has a problem with me putting pineapples on MY pizza. Not Grievance, not Refusal... you're getting Annihilated.
See I was right ^_^
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See I was right ^_^
*growls and resists the urge to drop a Lev III orbital bombardment... FOR NOW*
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The real question is does a sunnyside up fried egg belong on a pizza? Pizza technology outside the US got weird in the 70s between the concept being spread and before the fast food chains arrived.
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You know what belongs on a pizza? Anything you damn well want to put on it. Because looking to society to validate one's personal choices in food (or anything, really) is stupid. Eat what you want. Don't trash people for eating stuff that you don't. Simple.
Now, can we talk some Bears or WHAT?!
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You know what belongs on a pizza? Anything you damn well want to put on it. Because looking to society to validate one's personal choices in food (or anything, really) is stupid. Eat what you want. Don't trash people for eating stuff that you don't. Simple.
Now, can we talk some Bears or WHAT?!
Glad I didnt bring up red licorice vs black licorice ^_^.
My copy of DD came in the mail today! Kim also surprised me with a GB dice tower from etsy's,along with a star of mechs she's in the process of painting in GB colors.
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Glad I didnt bring up red licorice vs black licorice ^_^.
My copy of DD came in the mail today! Kim also surprised me with a GB dice tower from etsy's,along with a star of mechs she's in the process of painting in GB colors.
GG Kim.
Last we left off:
Polar and Taiga Galaxy paint schemes…WhatAreThose?!?!
Stuff on our RATs and how it makes me mad (not as mad as I sound, a good portion is to generate some conversation)
What’s up with our fleet in general
In terms of our fleet and partially on the RAT front, I was surprised to see the Wusun on ours, but we missed out on the White Raven. I think whatever our issues, our relationship with the ravens is still pretty solid. Still want the Huntsman back, even with the Rime Otter to take its place.
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Kim also surprised me with a GB dice tower from etsy's,along with a star of mechs she's in the process of painting in GB colors.
nice! :D
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If anyone wants to make a fuss over pineapple on pizza, I say they should go eat a Swedish banana pizza.
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Polar and Taiga Galaxy paint schemes…WhatAreThose?!?!
I was trying to find some sort of reference for you on these, but I came up completely short.
Personally, I'd lean towards using the paint schemes of their roots: Kavalleri (Polar) and Drakøns (Taiga). Modified/updated, if needed, to bring them in like with the rest of the touman. Makes the most sense to me, on a lot of levels, to have them carry forth their Rasalhagian heritage like that.
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Pg 83 of Dominions Divided has a Locust IIC from Taiga. Nothing I could find on Polar
Actually what had me curious. The Phoenix Hawk IIC on pg 26 is in a different colorscheme than normally listed for Omega Galaxy (The Karhu on pg 78 has it), so I wondered if the Locust was just camo or more regimental.
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Tundra Galaxy is the one made up of Drakons and Hussars and they have a paint scheme according to camospecs, just no examples.
Taiga is Freemen and Polar is Kavalleri
And unfortunately it looks like each regiment had its own deal, rather than brigade level. And that’s not common in clan militaries. Although who knows, the Gunzberge Eagles got to keep their scheme (mildly) different.
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I generally use their FRR schemes in MM but that's because of lack of options.
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Taiga is Freemen
I apparently can't read today, lol. Thank you.
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I was trying to find some sort of reference for you on these, but I came up completely short.
Personally, I'd lean towards using the paint schemes of their roots: Kavalleri (Polar) and Drakøns (Taiga). Modified/updated, if needed, to bring them in like with the rest of the touman. Makes the most sense to me, on a lot of levels, to have them carry forth their Rasalhagian heritage like that.
Nice
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GG Kim.
Last we left off:
Polar and Taiga Galaxy paint schemes…WhatAreThose?!?!
Stuff on our RATs and how it makes me mad (not as mad as I sound, a good portion is to generate some conversation)
What’s up with our fleet in general
In terms of our fleet and partially on the RAT front, I was surprised to see the Wusun on ours, but we missed out on the White Raven. I think whatever our issues, our relationship with the ravens is still pretty solid. Still want the Huntsman back, even with the Rime Otter to take its place.
I wonder if the XTRO Republic III note of increased production at Quatre Belle is us buying Wusuns or trading Ostrogoths for them and it noted that we've increased aerospace sibko's they need birds to use and being close ranged fighter/interceptors with a configs that mount a TC would help freshly graduated pilots
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I wonder if the XTRO Republic III note of increased production at Quatre Belle is us buying Wusuns or trading Ostrogoths for them and it noted that we've increased aerospace sibko's they need birds to use and being close ranged fighter/interceptors with a configs that mount a TC would help freshly graduated pilots
That would be nice. I assume some of it is to refill our Valkyrie clusters, maybe get that galaxy back to full strength, and make sure our Leviathans are topped off as well. Those two ships carry 350 fighters, 300 of them from the Lev II. That’s nearly 3 whole clusters worth of fighters.
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Well with 3145 we have two Valkyrie Clusters, 2nd and 6th (?) but as said that’s now out of date. I’d love more (just like more Zeta) especially considering that with 28 Dropships on those two beasts and our penchant for Aesirs and Vanirs we could really use them.
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Well with 3145 we have two Valkyrie Clusters, 2nd and 6th (?) but as said that’s now out of date. I’d love more (just like more Zeta) especially considering that with 28 Dropships on those two beasts and our penchant for Aesirs and Vanirs we could really use them.
We did up production of Aesirs at sometime around 3145 and the Lev III write up does include a theoretical Drop ship load out of 8 Aesirs, 3 Aquaducts and 3 Mammoths, so 6 empty for transports? that's a lot of troops that can be used to say hello up closer and more personal
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True… although eight Aesirs would give us another 240 fighters. Even if they replaced half with Vanir’s that’s almost another full Cluster of Aerospace fighters. Three full clusters between two Battleships/ Dreadnoughts is QUITE a lot and I approve. Six transports could be six full Overlord C’s which is a full Galaxy+.
We can drop a Hammer on people.
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True… although eight Aesirs would give us another 240 fighters. Even if they replaced half with Vanir’s that’s almost another full Cluster of Aerospace fighters. Three full clusters between two Battleships/ Dreadnoughts is QUITE a lot and I approve. Six transports could be six full Overlord C’s which is a full Galaxy+.
We can drop a Hammer on people.
8 aesirs on a Lev III is 2 Trinaries worth of fighters, if i can do simple maths, and then there's the jump ships carrying standard Aesir/Vanir stars and their other transport dropship assets like Sassanids to drop off some Kobold IIC and Elemental III's to strike at key area's before a full on Drop Bear impression, with the added bonus one of the clusters in an Artic Galaxy (Tundra, Taiga, Polar) uses most of the Stealth BA's in the RasDom Touman or specializes in it's use and i think it's one that's been tagged into Combine Territory, and mix that with the Cluster that socializes in Artillery, we could be seeing the RasDom fighting like IS combined arms mixed with Horses combined arms, not out of necessity like the Dark Ages and the Wolves sudden-ish adoption of IS abtakha but because it's us and seeing that covered (hopefully) is kinda exciting
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Each Aesir carries 30 fighters and a Trinary is 30 fighters. Plus 50 from the Leviathan III (5 Stars) and 300 from the Leviathan II (10 Trinaries). 450 Elementals (Six Trinaries) between the two Battleships, and at least 6-8 Overlord C’s and/or Polaris’s?
Hell yeah combined arms Galaxy orbital drops.
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Troop transports on a battleship is a waste of a battleship. We haven't been endlessly building Odyssey for 80 years to put troops on a battleship.
Battleships have to stay mobile. If someone knows where your battleship is, it is a known quantifiable target. That gets you a dead battleship.
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Troop transports on a battleship is a waste of a battleship. We haven't been endlessly building Odyssey for 80 years to put troops on a battleship.
Battleships have to stay mobile. If someone knows where your battleship is, it is a known quantifiable target. That gets you a dead battleship.
Oh too true. I would only use what I just posted for a major assault or two. For a mobile fleet I’d add more PWS and Assault Ships… ie more Aesir and Vanirs lol.
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Oh too true. I would only use what I just posted for a major assault or two. For a mobile fleet I’d add more PWS and Assault Ships… ie more Aesir and Vanirs lol.
Maybe a few Isegrim and Nagasawa.
Oh scratch that, the Isegrim is just a less in all aspects Vanir (save speed) which the Nagasawas can provide. I never looked too hard at the Isegrim I guess (I’ve gone the last half dozen years or so calling it the Isengrim).
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Oh too true. I would only use what I just posted for a major assault or two. For a mobile fleet I’d add more PWS and Assault Ships… ie more Aesir and Vanirs lol.
Same, jump in drop off the transports under cover of your guns, clear them a landing spot with Ortillary, send a signal to another HPG equipped jumpship, jump on to a pick up point for fresh troops in transports, while the jumpships jump in to the now secured system to provide the second wave and pick up any and all survivors on planet. Is it a good plan, probably not.. but i'm not a tactician or strategical anything :thumbsup:
Maybe a few Isegrim and Nagasawa.
Oh scratch that, the Isegrim is just a less in all aspects Vanir (save speed) which the Nagasawas can provide. I never looked too hard at the Isegrim I guess (I’ve gone the last half dozen years or so calling it the Isengrim).
We're taking the Emo's to Isengrim
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I’m thinking more about the color schemes, the Phoenix Hawk IIC on 26 can’t just be a mislabeling error, it has the Omega crest on it. It might be one of the Vega Regulars Cluster colors. Some clusters get different paint schemes (the Gunzberge Eagles, that one Wolf tiger stripe cluster) and might as well give it to what are glorified solhama clusters.
Alpha hasn’t changed (Viper on p32).
Can’t tell on page 49, no markings. (Crockett makes me mad too, if anyone is keeping track)
61 is Silveroot Keshik and Ourse Keshik (also TIL it’s French for Bear :-X )
Rho is the same (EXE p64)
Karhu on 78 is regular old Omega
80-81 looks like Alpha from insignia, omega by colors.
Taiga Galaxy Locust IIC on 83 uses a modified 1st/3rd Freemen insignia on the leg, but is painted in either very similar or the same as what is described (but not shown) on Camospecs for Tundra Galaxy
The Skulker (maybe) on 88 seems to be watch (urban camo) colors, or camo. The sidebar on the same page is a communication between 1st Tyr and the Watch, no other context clues.
Pg 102 2nd Tyr is same as it has been.
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I would say that insignias trump colour schemes every time, because camo and colour schemes can be changed, for whatever reason
they don't need to have parade colours unless on parade
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I would say that insignias trump colour schemes every time, because camo and colour schemes can be changed, for whatever reason
they don't need to have parade colours unless on parade
Every check a fortune every formation a parade,i love the touman!!!
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Hey do we know what nomenclature Clan Ghost Bear and/or the Rasalhague Dominion uses for vehicle and conventional infantry stars/binaries/trinaries?
The closest thing I can find is a reference to a vehicle "Tango Support Star" in Delta Galaxy's Keshik in FM: WC. But we know they have them, vehicle units anyway, in those Phalanx Clusters.
If we don't know, educated guesses appreciated. Trying to put together a Phalanx Cluster or part of one, in the Pre-Jihad era.
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Support Star is used a lot. An Elemental Binary is called Support/Elemental Support binary (from sarna) atleast sometimes.
The new BoT book calls for Phalanx Stars, which basically means just not pure mech Star.
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New merc KS preview mentions we are gonna get a fiction crossover with Hansens Roughriders in April.
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Also I think it’s weird in the DD pictures that all the people who have been on Active service have the plain old Ghost Bear logo (emphasis on old) on their uniforms, while those in non-com roles use the RasDom logo. I can understand it with the Khan and Galaxy Commander, but the Prince it doesn’t make as much sense, he’s officially a civilian.
Since it’s related to DD and to also make it so I don’t go 4 in a row, I was surprised we only had SuperNovas in our Keshiks. Well atleast the 2nd Tyr, they are a front line unit and should be able to run them without a problem.
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Also I think it’s weird in the DD pictures that all the people who have been on Active service have the plain old Ghost Bear logo (emphasis on old) on their uniforms, while those in non-com roles use the RasDom logo. I can understand it with the Khan and Galaxy Commander, but the Prince it doesn’t make as much sense, he’s officially a civilian.
Since it’s related to DD and to also make it so I don’t go 4 in a row, I was surprised we only had SuperNovas in our Keshiks. Well atleast the 2nd Tyr, they are a front line unit and should be able to run them without a problem.
I didn't notice, huh, well time to crack open DD again I guess.
Hopefully the next FM or FM series, (it might be worth TPTB following the ilClan era setting books idea of splitting them up into 3-4 books, each covering a slice of the clock and giving each faction more page count), will go into a bit of detail on how we run our units now, for eg, earlier sources said we have a Keshik for each front line cluster, but Rasalhague and Valkyrie have never been shown to have one, how are the Artic Galaxies set up? are they closer to Phalanx clusters? does it depend on the cluster? we have mention of at least one having Huey's and spotters, but it's noted as being unusual. I have questions! TPTB give me answers or I'll sulk quietly in the corner or something, maybe, I dunno ;D
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All our front line galaxies had one, but the second line ones never seem to have had them. Also some of the galaxy command trinaries were called keshiks. But in FM3145 the Alpha Galaxy command trinary doesn’t get Keshik status. Only the units for the khans and lore master are given that.
Rasalhauge Galaxy doesn’t have one, but alpha galaxy has effectively two, the khans and the galaxy commanders. I assume the 2nd Tyr being raised relatively recently and taken over by the galaxy commander means it is the de facto Keshik of that cluster.
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You wouldn't believe the arguments around keshiks putting Roy in Rho Galaxy in FM3145 caused when it came time to do DD. I liked Roy a lot (I like to image Roy Fokker as a template) but killing him means if I get a chance I can put Silveroot back where it belongs.
The Galaxy write ups from FM3145 are pretty good for Galaxy theming. The old front line are old school. Most had listings by trinary in Invading Clans so why mess with that?
The second line are quietly padded with tanks to get numbers to play against regiments in a way you can't justify with the lead Galaxies. Supernovas hide a lot of sins.
The Arctic Galaxies are the same but allow for the fire support, artillery, or axe theming of the root Kungsarme regiments.
Maybe one day we can do actual structure again.
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IMO every Galaxy should have a Command Keshik (like the Wolves) and it should probably be a Supernova of some variety. It may attach ‘permanently’ to a Cluster by usually dragging that Cluster with it everywhere it goes, but they should be independent.
Front Line or Second line Clusters should all have Aerospace, Vehicles, and Elementals attached in some form or another. Maybe as Novas, maybe as pure forces… but there is no good reason to exclude them from front line forces. Now second line might have a bit more than mechs, but that’s a nature of defensive, Harrison, or second line forces. Plus we need Valkyrie and Zeta back fully because specialization!
Not to say each Galaxy can’t specialize themselves, but if we are fully integrated into the Inner Sphere we should adopt everything we can to make us stronger if possible.
EDIT: Detach Silveroot and Ourse Keshik from Alpha Galaxy for logistical purposes. Again they could ‘attach’ themselves to a Galaxy, but I’d prefer if the Galaxy have its own Command Keshik and they would just ‘combine/override’ them if they took direct control. They’re supposed to be the big picture commander: let your subordinates do their jobs and don’t micromanage unless you’re REALLY REALLY good at it.
Just my two cents.
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Yeah I agree. Especially when FASA went through all the work to give us the bizarre command nova set up (which has carried over to our command keshiks) of mech/BA/arty. I like to think the keshiks designation of supernova binary is just two really big novas including a random extra support star in the nova.
The lack of supernovas in the line clusters was odd, we have enough elementals.
I would like to see the khans (and maybe the lore masters) keshiks to be detached. Even if it is only the front line galaxies.
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Yeah I agree. Especially when FASA went through all the work to give us the bizarre command nova set up (which has carried over to our command keshiks) of mech/BA/arty. I like to think the keshiks designation of supernova binary is just two really big novas including a random extra support star in the nova.
The lack of supernovas in the line clusters was odd, we have enough elementals.
I would like to see the khans (and maybe the lore masters) keshiks to be detached. Even if it is only the front line galaxies.
From FM warden clans our Keshiks should be two supernova binaries, at least in size, "typically a reinforced Supernova Trinary of four Stars", so my idea, a supernova binary of mechs/BA, a supernova of vehicles/BA, a star of Aerospace and a star of BA, administratively attached to the Aerospace star but used as independent headhunters, so 10 mechs, each with a point of BA, 5 Huey's, 5 IFV's, a star of BA, 10 Aerospace fighters and an extra star of BA possibly airdropped or just running around on their tod.
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You wouldn't believe the arguments around keshiks putting Roy in Rho Galaxy in FM3145 caused when it came time to do DD. I liked Roy a lot (I like to image Roy Fokker as a template) but killing him means if I get a chance I can put Silveroot back where it belongs.
The Galaxy write ups from FM3145 are pretty good for Galaxy theming. The old front line are old school. Most had listings by trinary in Invading Clans so why mess with that?
The second line are quietly padded with tanks to get numbers to play against regiments in a way you can't justify with the lead Galaxies. Supernovas hide a lot of sins.
The Arctic Galaxies are the same but allow for the fire support, artillery, or axe theming of the root Kungsarme regiments.
Maybe one day we can do actual structure again.
How many of those arguments where over people trying to say "Roy in Rho"? :D
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Our Loremaster has typically been badass… they should get their own Keshik lol
Then again as I think about it: our Watch got a bit of a write up for forces and technically we have a lot of paramilitary forces too. A part of me wishes we had a phone book of all those listings of planetary militias/ paramilitary forces just because I’m OCD like that. Got a lot of time to think about all those things lol
Edit: also out Jumpship fleet too. Didn’t one of the older FM’s give listings of Jumpships (wildly out of proportion of course)? That would be cool updated…
I should stop thinking lol
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Our Loremaster has typically been badass… they should get their own Keshik lol
Then again as I think about it: our Watch got a bit of a write up for forces and technically we have a lot of paramilitary forces too. A part of me wishes we had a phone book of all those listings of planetary militias/ paramilitary forces just because I’m OCD like that. Got a lot of time to think about all those things lol
Edit: also out Jumpship fleet too. Didn’t one of the older FM’s give listings of Jumpships (wildly out of proportion of course)? That would be cool updated…
I should stop thinking lol
The lore master has beta galaxy command (shrill), shKhan (Silveroot) used to have alpha (although as Jellico pointed out they got moved to Rho), and the khans (Oruse) is unattached.
Invading clans has 27 jump ships and 2 warships, although that seems off by quite a bit. But it only cared about the 3 galaxies in the sphere by that point (Alpha, Beta, Delta)
I just assume each planet has a cluster of armed watch, and as many hidden agents as needed.
Other clans like the JF also count their solhama in their active forces, but that seems kind of silly.
In invading clans I count around 50% of the clusters having atleast one supernova, and a few others with a nova or two within the trinary. If we could at one point afford a galaxy of BA we can afford some supernovas. Zeta was nominally 7500 BA operators strong.
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The lore master has beta galaxy command (shrill), shKhan (Silveroot) used to have alpha (although as Jellico pointed out they got moved to Rho), and the khans (Oruse) is unattached.
Invading clans has 27 jump ships and 2 warships, although that seems off by quite a bit. But it only cared about the 3 galaxies in the sphere by that point (Alpha, Beta, Delta)
I just assume each planet has a cluster of armed watch, and as many hidden agents as needed.
Other clans like the JF also count their solhama in their active forces, but that seems kind of silly.
In invading clans I count around 50% of the clusters having atleast one supernova, and a few others with a nova or two within the trinary. If we could at one point afford a galaxy of BA we can afford some supernovas. Zeta was nominally 7500 BA operators strong.
Loremaster typically gets Beta.
Ourse and Silveroot are for the Khan's.
How many of those arguments where over people trying to say "Roy in Rho"? :D
Roy in Rho probably comes back to a MWDA source making Lars a Galaxy Commander in Alpha. That causes problems. Fixed now.
To give an idea how this is long term sculpture.
I hate the huge Horse Clusters. But facing the 36/36/18/infantry regiments of the DC the typical 45/20/125+ second line Cluster increasingly doesn't cut it.
So as the touman grew in FM3145 the opportunity arose to hang onto the tank Trinaries from the Dark Age.The purists can use the "traditionalist" front line units. If you want combined arms go secondary. The BA Trinary/Binary becomes a Supernova, and maybe hide more BA in Mech Novas. 45/30/20/125 looks a lot more balanced against a regiment.
But how do you transport all those tanks. Enter DD and one of the few known Clan tank transports shows up on the RATs to cheers everywhere. Thus slowly we get where we want to be.
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The lore master has beta galaxy command (shrill), shKhan (Silveroot) used to have alpha (although as Jellico pointed out they got moved to Rho), and the khans (Oruse) is unattached.
Invading clans has 27 jump ships and 2 warships, although that seems off by quite a bit. But it only cared about the 3 galaxies in the sphere by that point (Alpha, Beta, Delta)
I just assume each planet has a cluster of armed watch, and as many hidden agents as needed.
Other clans like the JF also count their solhama in their active forces, but that seems kind of silly.
In invading clans I count around 50% of the clusters having atleast one supernova, and a few others with a nova or two within the trinary. If we could at one point afford a galaxy of BA we can afford some supernovas. Zeta was nominally 7500 BA operators strong.
Zeta was probably around 1,200 to 1,500: MAX 2,000 Elementals. I think people would be broken if we unleashed 7,500 Elementals (and other BA) on our enemies.
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Zeta was probably around 1,200 to 1,500: MAX 2,000 Elementals. I think people would be broken if we unleashed 7,500 Elementals (and other BA) on our enemies.
Yeah my math was wrong. 375 per cluster for a total of 1500. I threw in an extra 5 as I was mathing
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Zeta was probably around 1,200 to 1,500: MAX 2,000 Elementals. I think people would be broken if we unleashed 7,500 Elementals (and other BA) on our enemies.
Though to be honest we probably should. Clusters have a serious problem with lack of bodies for things like base security.
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I figured anything Not a direct combatant isn’t listed in any unit makeup.
If I had my druthers we’d come up with a RasDom unit organization. Even with a largest of second line clusters we can’t stand against a regiment of battle mechs plus all their support. The skill and tech level disparity is gone. Also there isn’t much ritualized warfare where we can bid down defenders or avoid bullshit amounts of stuff.
Even if we expanded everything (but planes) into a supernova, it would be 60 mechs, 30 planes and 300 elementals. Against 108+ mechs/300 vees/20+ planes/and any amount of infantry and atleast an equal amount of BA.
To compete in any sense of the word in a cluster on regiment
We need to utilize the command nova idea (mechs, BA, some ‘garbage’ like artillery/planes/vees) or expand trinaries to be up to 5 stars.
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Let the Arctic Galaxies lead the way, deemphasize input from the stubborn traditionalists.
Also replace Dalia Bekker, she's not fit for service to the Touman or Dominion.
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If only he hadn't been ritually murdered, I'd have liked to have seen Lars Magnusson taking Dalia Bekker's place as Khan.
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Though to be honest we probably should. Clusters have a serious problem with lack of bodies for things like base security.
You wont hear me say no to Zeta being reformed ^_^.
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Loremaster typically gets Beta.
Ourse and Silveroot are for the Khan's.
Roy in Rho probably comes back to a MWDA source making Lars a Galaxy Commander in Alpha. That causes problems. Fixed now.
To give an idea how this is long term sculpture.
I hate the huge Horse Clusters. But facing the 36/36/18/infantry regiments of the DC the typical 45/20/125+ second line Cluster increasingly doesn't cut it.
So as the touman grew in FM3145 the opportunity arose to hang onto the tank Trinaries from the Dark Age.The purists can use the "traditionalist" front line units. If you want combined arms go secondary. The BA Trinary/Binary becomes a Supernova, and maybe hide more BA in Mech Novas. 45/30/20/125 looks a lot more balanced against a regiment.
But how do you transport all those tanks. Enter DD and one of the few known Clan tank transports shows up on the RATs to cheers everywhere. Thus slowly we get where we want to be.
All fitting into three Union C's or one Overlord C, A Polaris and an Aesir, so an Odyssey or an Odyssey and a Hunter minimum, considering during the RotS era we went into the jumpship production business we could have a few ships floating about just waiting to be asked to help.
4 to 6 jumpships to a Galaxy (at best) we can have a extremally mobile and hard hitting Touman depending on just what jumpships we have and in what numbers
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If only he hadn't been ritually murdered, I'd have liked to have seen Lars Magnusson taking Dalia Bekker's place as Khan.
Up until DD I probably would have agreed. His (and TBH everyone’s) actions in DD were…. Muddied at best. I think that some lower rank officers should challenge for leadership and we should get new blood in all around (some Galaxy Commanders included). Personally I think the Prince needs to be removed too but let’s not open that can of worms please.
As far as size formations…. Yeah I’ve got nothing ‘Clan-like’ to help there. Ghost Bear Combined Arms RCT’s? Sure sounds good to me but realistically probably not gonna happen. Not unless someone really drills Ceti Hussar or SLDF Organization into them… which ain’t gonna happen.
I mean TBH even Periphery Powers are building BA Regiments now
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If anyone wants to make a fuss over pineapple on pizza, I say they should go eat a Swedish banana pizza.
Those are great, I, know O:-), things. Pizza things one shouldn't know... after all I "" do "" Za for a living...
28 years and counting! ( God, I hate my job... but my passion for BT obscure... )
TT
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I figured anything Not a direct combatant isn’t listed in any unit makeup.
If I had my druthers we’d come up with a RasDom unit organization. Even with a largest of second line clusters we can’t stand against a regiment of battle mechs plus all their support. The skill and tech level disparity is gone. Also there isn’t much ritualized warfare where we can bid down defenders or avoid bullshit amounts of stuff.
Even if we expanded everything (but planes) into a supernova, it would be 60 mechs, 30 planes and 300 elementals. Against 108+ mechs/300 vees/20+ planes/and any amount of infantry and atleast an equal amount of BA.
To compete in any sense of the word in a cluster on regiment
We need to utilize the command nova idea (mechs, BA, some ‘garbage’ like artillery/planes/vees) or expand trinaries to be up to 5 stars.
What we need to do is stop thinking of Clusters as our main go to, we need to start using Galaxies and just use Clusters as slightly over strength Battalions with support elements attached, Ok we'd have to expand past our 12 Galaxies to do anything but turtle, the whole Cluster as our main fighting unit and our years of sleeping have left us so under strength to face anyone but an OAP with a bread stick and even then we'd be lucky, we're half the size of the Capellan Confederation in planets and about a fifth it's size militarily, we really should have had our furs handed to us in both Combine-Dominion wars
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What we need to do is stop thinking of Clusters as our main go to, we need to start using Galaxies and just use Clusters as slightly over strength Battalions with support elements attached, Ok we'd have to expand past our 12 Galaxies to do anything but turtle, the whole Cluster as our main fighting unit and our years of sleeping have left us so under strength to face anyone but an OAP with a bread stick and even then we'd be lucky, we're half the size of the Capellan Confederation in planets and about a fifth it's size militarily, we really should have had our furs handed to us in both Combine-Dominion wars
Hopefully we won’t see that for a while. Remember most factions in the Inner Sphere have taken a serious pounding. With mixed-tech becoming more of a thing we may see a reevaluation of Clusters where it goes from approximately 75 points to 90+.
Please note the following thoughts are in my head cannon: We also might see the Supernova formation becoming more common especially if the writers and developers wish to create situations where most planets are only protected by a battalion of troops.
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What we need to do is stop thinking of Clusters as our main go to, we need to start using Galaxies and just use Clusters as slightly over strength Battalions with support elements attached, Ok we'd have to expand past our 12 Galaxies to do anything but turtle, the whole Cluster as our main fighting unit and our years of sleeping have left us so under strength to face anyone but an OAP with a bread stick and even then we'd be lucky, we're half the size of the Capellan Confederation in planets and about a fifth it's size militarily, we really should have had our furs handed to us in both Combine-Dominion wars
By 3145 we had turned Binaries to Trinaries and replaced* the tank Stars with Mechs. God knows what the navy has done. It has been kept deliberately vague. Even with the 30% losses of DD, we are still stronger than 3130.
While I fundamentally agree with the point about the size of Clusters I am not sure how you could go about increasing their number. Even the DC is running low in regiments because the story line doesn't support them.
Personally I would be looking at Claws, Valkyries, and Phalanxes to boost numbers by attaching them to Mech Clusters. They are a little less obnoxious than more Mech Clusters.
Likewise based on DD I suspect the DC and RD will be activating 3rd line units which should improve defences.
*remembering the 2nd line Clusters often kept their tanks in addition to the new Mechs.
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By 3145 we had turned Binaries to Trinaries and replaced* the tank Stars with Mechs. God knows what the navy has done. It has been kept deliberately vague. Even with the 30% losses of DD, we are still stronger than 3130.
While I fundamentally agree with the point about the size of Clusters I am not sure how you could go about increasing their number. Even the DC is running low in regiments because the story line doesn't support them.
Personally I would be looking at Claws, Valkyries, and Phalanxes to boost numbers by attaching them to Mech Clusters. They are a little less obnoxious than more Mech Clusters.
Likewise based on DD I suspect the DC and RD will be activating 3rd line units which should improve defences.
*remembering the 2nd line Clusters often kept their tanks in addition to the new Mechs.
Well we had early graduation of Sibko's in IlClan, increased recruitment in DD, so we can make up numbers, in what form the new unit's take who knows, well I assume some of TPTB..., the introduction of Claws, Phalanxes, and Valkyrie clusters to existing Galaxies is one way, new Galaxies is another, if TPTB want the Horses to keep their thing, the DC has already activated their Ashigaru regiments and have even started (on paper) rotating DC/FC Vets to their training camps as instructors, so they're more of a speed bump and less of a unique road colorant. I don't know if we're going to get early rapid gains and then bog down like the DC did in the FC, I hope not, mainly because recycled plot device, or something else.
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When I was reading about the claw clusters it was said they often combined with regular clusters to from nova clusters.
I also wouldn’t mind even our front line clusters getting a vee trianry or two added in. In my head canon units I keep as many vees tracked and at one speed higher than the mechs they nominally support. That should let them keep up. And we have access to some pretty good (clan) tanks.
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tagging in to follow
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tagging in to follow
Never on time... sigh.
Always late, 8).
TT
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Just taking time to think about it.
Given a standard DCMS regiment of 108 Mech, 36 ASF, 36 tanks, and a regiment of infantry (756 PBIs with transport. Less with BA).
Would a 3rd line, regular skill, Phalanx of 90 tanks (3 Trinaries) and a Trinary of conventional infantry attached to a 2nd line Cluster be enough for survival in a defensive operation?
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Just taking time to think about it.
Given a standard DCMS regiment of 108 Mech, 36 ASF, 36 tanks, and a regiment of infantry (756 PBIs with transport. Less with BA).
Would a 3rd line, regular skill, Phalanx of 90 tanks (3 Trinaries) and a Trinary of conventional infantry attached to a 2nd line Cluster be enough for survival in a defensive operation?
I think that needs taking to MM, that's a lot of tanks, since as you said the 2nd line clusters kept a lot of their tank trinaries from the DA's, one at least claiming an extra, but the DCMS has a lot of Mechs and well this is BT, also the DCMS maybe outnumber us in the air depending on ASF Binary or Trinary, we do have more clan tech, and the Axel IIC either has a LPL or a TC.
I would go with the cop-out answer of what serves the plot for 70 points? but it could be a believable loss for either side with little in the way of hand waving, inexperience in the 3rd line forces leaving things exposed, rushed defense's, vs dug in defenses, home ground advantage, dirty fighting picked up from the RasRep side, ect.
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Probably not. Obviously it depends on the skill parity and the composition of the two groups: an Elite Assault Tank Cluster will flatten a green light regiment.
But Aerospace and twice the amount of infantry PLUS mechs and tanks is a hard thing to fight with just three + regular rated Trinaries. Not impossible but definitely a tripwire force IMO. If communications were up it might buy enough time to delay for reinforcements. The type of defensive options (terrain, fortifications, preparations, etc) also matter but it’s a lopsided fight.
EDIT: Era matters too: tech level in 3050 favors the Clans with a big advantage (plot too lol)
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Sounds like the hueys are gonna be putting in the work!
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Our regular tanks are now back to regular regular, so 4/5. So 90 vees there plus 45 mechs, another 30 vees, maybe 25-50BA (with limited mechanized options or heavier weight units) and 20-30 fighters? Let’s discount the non-BA infantry on both sides.
We are now roughly equal in tank size, and in universe have had time to build a doctrine. Fighters at best could almost even out. Mechs are outdone at greater than 2-1. Clan tech in all these cases can hide a lot of sins, idk about that many. The majority of the BA could be stranded by knocking out transport vehicles, or would be slower and/or more specialized as seen in our DD second line RAT. Not enough omnis to mechanize fully, although a doctrinal shift (that almost had to have happened) would help here as well. Maybe the IS would have a company or battalion of BA. Even still we win here with how much better our BA is.
In universe it would come down to skill of the mechwarriors. On the table top unless you can play the range game for a long time IS has too much more armor to go through.
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To be clear what I am thinking.
The Dominion touman is already too big to handle. You can't just add Clusters willy-nilly. Certainly not Mech Clusters.
The DC is full of Clantech now. You can't rely on that 20% extra capability. Numbers have to be closer.
The Ashigaru Initiatives pretty much guarantee this war is going to get democratised. We have out own conscription option so why not codify that a bit?
I miss the Valkyries, Phalanxes, and Claws. While the Valkyries pretty much have to be point defense for major worlds like Rasalhague and Alshain (codifying assets on naval assets is always a bad idea and should be kept vague). But the Phalanxes and Claws can be reimagined as 3rd line units to beef up other Clusters.
So that is why I am thinking tanks and conventional infantry.
A Claw would be 2 Trinaries of BA (150), a Trinary of conventional (375), and enough APCs/IFs to move them.
The Phalanx is mentioned above.
Pure speculation of course. I genuinely have no clue of what is coming in the future.
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I wouldnt mind seeing something kind of like the raven Triad.
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I wouldnt mind seeing something kind of like the raven Triad.
That is nominally what our keshiks are; Mech binary, ba binary, and a star of fighters and one of artillery.
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I wouldn’t mind a general support cluster of
2 Trinary Vee, 1 Binary aero, 1 binary artillery, 2 trinary BA, 1 mixed trinary of 20 transports and 5 dasher. Slightly oversized but when supporting a naked front line cluster it really adds some ballast and the numbers can add up.
Front line: 60 mechs, 75 BA (if we have room to supernova directly), 30 fighters.
Adds in 60 vees, 20 more fighters (shores up the vehicle disparity still there), 20 artillery (roughly equal to the battalion of artillery common in RCTs), enough BA to supernova 2 mech trinaries, and some transports/infantry support.
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The old Ice Hellion Flurry Clusters are another potential model/precedent.
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(warning this post is a train of thought and random rambling post, grammar went on holiday and sentence structure went out behind the privy with a gun and never returned)
I really don't think we're as over strength as people think, we have what amounts to about 11 Regiments of Mechs, the same number of Vehicles Regiments, ASF Regiments, and half as many BA Regiments, if you took out the tech advantage, a Cluster is just a reinforced Battalion of Mechs, (45 vs Battalions 36 or 40 with a command lance), a short Battalion of Vehicles (30 to a battalions 36) and short Wing of ASF (again 30 vs 36) and a short company of BA (50 vs 64) or a short company plus a battalion if it's a Trinary of BA (75 vs 80),
The only way we should be fighting Regiments is with Galaxies, and we have as many of those in total as the Combine has (in 3145) just on our boarder, granted Clan forces are more organized along an RCT model just more SLDF Independent Regiment like, so SLDF RCTs... and the DCMS should be bringing support units to bump up their standard Regiments (Ashigaru units), let us have a proper war before we replay the 3rd SW again for the third or fourth time, I've forgotten how many times TPTB have tried to reset it to the constant boring stalemate of military actions doing and meaning next to nothing, ok it might not be that, but the last time we did this, it was oh the RotS era and all but what 5 worlds we took in a war we had to give back?, which does raise a point with DD, the people of Combine decent, they didn't go back to the Combine when given the chance, it's canonical that the RasDom is better than the Combine :P (to some people, in universe) and gives more weight to their arguments in the Vote, "What I have is better than there, but it's not perfect, maybe they (the 3rd SL) can make it better", just wish we had more info before hand about stuff going on, yeah i know faction books don't sell well, but they can add so much to a faction that wont fit a conflict based book, and really useful for the TTRPG side, that seems to have been forgotten about.
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https://bg.battletech.com/forums/ask-the-lead-developers/rasdom-omega-galaxy/msg1909717/#new
Omega is leaving the old paint scheme behind.
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I really don't think we're as over strength as people think
The only way we should be fighting Regiments is with Galaxies
part of the problem with the advance of time is that IS tech catches up to Clan tech, and Clan tech also expands to IS factions
where before a Clan Cluster did in fact equal an IS regiment due to tech and skill levels, there is more parity, but Clan toumans don't expand to make up for the tech parity coming closer
but I don't think we've necessarily reached a Galaxy = a regiment just yet
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Did we actually take Tomans? I can’t see what else establish a bridgehead, ‘encountering a defending battalion, and securing what seems like the capital city could mean.
P88
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Did we actually take Tomans? I can’t see what else establish a bridgehead, ‘encountering a defending battalion, and securing what seems like the capital city could mean.
P88
It is intentionally vague. You can't really start taking worlds off a faction that barely exists yet. For all I know we made contact and retreated.
Personally I would like to start selling them weapons to resist the Lyrans and build a nice little friendly buffer state. I don't want two Great Houses on the borders.
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It is intentionally vague. You can't really start taking worlds off a faction that barely exists yet. For all I know we made contact and retreated.
Personally I would like to start selling them weapons to resist the Lyrans and build a nice little friendly buffer state. I don't want two Great Houses on the borders.
I think more likely the bears provoke the tamar pact rejoining the LC. Tamar rising notes that the news of the ghost bear attack comes right as Roderik Steiner comes to discuss things with the Tamar pact. if I was running the tamar pact I'd suddenly be panicing and wanting to reinforce my defences to prevent a ghost bear conquest
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part of the problem with the advance of time is that IS tech catches up to Clan tech, and Clan tech also expands to IS factions
where before a Clan Cluster did in fact equal an IS regiment due to tech and skill levels, there is more parity, but Clan toumans don't expand to make up for the tech parity coming closer
but I don't think we've necessarily reached a Galaxy = a regiment just yet
Also remember one point of armour is two tanks. If you have a trinary of tanks that ups the number of “bodies” on the ground. Realistically to even out the two forces if given the same tech level all you really need to face a regiment of 120 mechs is two clusters of 60 points of mechs each. Yes armour and aerospace shifts your math a bit but I imagine that the Clans will adapt to where one cluster will still equal one regiment.
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The big problem with mech numbers that I see is, despite the fact that every year the comparison gets sillier and sillier, a cluster is still being treated as equal to a regiment. We saw it on Terra. ignoring the fact that the tech levels between forces where proably pretty damn close to equal.
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Also remember one point of armour is two tanks. If you have a trinary of tanks that ups the number of “bodies” on the ground. Realistically to even out the two forces if given the same tech level all you really need to face a regiment of 120 mechs is two clusters of 60 points of mechs each. Yes armour and aerospace shifts your math a bit but I imagine that the Clans will adapt to where one cluster will still equal one regiment.
No one has forgotten the 2-1 on vees and planes.
as of now we don’t use 4 mech trinaries. We stupidly run 45 with an elemental trinary, plus some planes. To reach 60 we’d need to supernova that elemental trinary, and preferably a mech trianry or too as well.
Look at the regiments in each of the new books;Mech regiment plus they have a wing or two of planes, 1-4 regiments of vees (the Davion ones have mostly been restored to full RCTs), 2-3 battalions of BA, 1-3 regiments of CI, and an arty battalion.
And also if we bump up our clusters, our neighbors need to too, as they are also clan(ish).
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The big problem with mech numbers that I see is, despite the fact that every year the comparison gets sillier and sillier, a cluster is still being treated as equal to a regiment. We saw it on Terra. ignoring the fact that the tech levels between forces where proably pretty damn close to equal.
Yeah… the era hasn’t managed stability on this.
Mogyorod: a cluster or Horses gets a bloody nose from a Marches battalion, falls back
New Olympia: 2 clusters and a sibko are stalemated against 5 battalions mechs, regiment tanks, regiment infantry
Geinah: goons drop one assault battalion and break a cluster and Keshik
Terra we saw a large cluster (8 trinaries, so basically 2 clusters) take on 2 regiments mechs and 7 of tanks and curb stomp them. But Terra was the sound of the author mashing forces together with zero ****** about actual numbers and then screaming “the RAF loses!” more than an actual respectable story.
The setting right now swings wildly on clan cluster vs regiment efficacy depending on the faction’s level of protag status.
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Back in Endless 67 I took what we got in FM WC. Generally the front line Clusters were all over the place. But we mostly have Invading Clans for that. There are some 60 Mech Clusters. There are some 30 Mech Clusters. There are some Aero and BA Trinaries. There are some Aero and BA Binaries. There was an assault Cluster or two with no ASF at all.
Short version for second line. 45 Mechs, 25 ASF (20 or 30), 40-60ish BA split across Novas and a Trinary/Binary.
Invading Clans screwed us here as our touman was built to a 3050 aesthetic. Whoever built the Adders or Horses just piled on the hardware to use as much as possible while staying within the standard 5 Trinaries.
I walked away feeling you couldn't look at the touman as single independent Clusters. Rather they were mix and match. Intended to combine two or three Clusters as a custom force. Unfortunately the briefness of following Field Manuals didn't really allow that to be explored. Especially as too many fell into the Cluster =Regiment trap.
As of 3145
Theta is 45 Mechs with Novas, a Trinary of tanks, a Supernova of BA with transport, and the usual ASF.
Kappa is 45 Mechs, 20/30 ASF (check FMWC), but the BA Novas use shuttles.
Tau is 45, 20/30 ASF, 20 tanks and the usual BA. The Bear Regulars don't use tanks cause they think they are frontline.
Tundra, Taiga, and Polar are basically the same as Theta with prefered fighting styles.
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We just saw Taiga cluster, the 3 Freemen. They have a single trinary of mechs.
I think we are more or less stuck in the cluster to regiment dynamic. Every novel has made it that way, along with plenty of sourcebooks. I agree that clusters should be deployed in pairs or work together against regiments.
But the expansion of RCT type formations to most IS factions, clans look down on vees (less so anymore but still, they aren’t in front line clusters for a couple different reasons), near tech parity, and that we can no longer Blitzkriege and rely on moronic commanders to accept duels or limited trials even paired/tripled up clusters don’t have the ballast.
I maintain the command nova should be rolled out across the toumen; mech, BA, support element as a single star/nova. At least in front/second line units. Add in some of the third line formations put forth by Jellico this would be competitive.
75 mechs, 375 BA, 90 tank, 30 arty, 30 planes.
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Back in Endless 67 I took what we got in FM WC. Generally the front line Clusters were all over the place. But we mostly have Invading Clans for that. There are some 60 Mech Clusters. There are some 30 Mech Clusters. There are some Aero and BA Trinaries. There are some Aero and BA Binaries. There was an assault Cluster or two with no ASF at all.
Short version for second line. 45 Mechs, 25 ASF (20 or 30), 40-60ish BA split across Novas and a Trinary/Binary.
Invading Clans screwed us here as our touman was built to a 3050 aesthetic. Whoever built the Adders or Horses just piled on the hardware to use as much as possible while staying within the standard 5 Trinaries.
I walked away feeling you couldn't look at the touman as single independent Clusters. Rather they were mix and match. Intended to combine two or three Clusters as a custom force. Unfortunately the briefness of following Field Manuals didn't really allow that to be explored. Especially as too many fell into the Cluster =Regiment trap.
As of 3145
Theta is 45 Mechs with Novas, a Trinary of tanks, a Supernova of BA with transport, and the usual ASF.
Kappa is 45 Mechs, 20/30 ASF (check FMWC), but the BA Novas use shuttles.
Tau is 45, 20/30 ASF, 20 tanks and the usual BA. The Bear Regulars don't use tanks cause they think they are frontline.
Tundra, Taiga, and Polar are basically the same as Theta with prefered fighting styles.
Hopefully what ever happens with the DC allows TPTB to sort things out, we haven't really fought since the second Combine-Dominion war, so this one could be used as a wake up call for reforms, maybe fold clusters together to double up, one front line and one second line.
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Another way to go would be to substantively improve the quality of Clan forces, rather then the quantity. Make elstars a thing and give them advantages. Mainstream interface cockpits and EI tattoos. Normalize stealth layers on frontline omnis. Make use of ferro-lamellor and ballistic-reinforced armors, reinforced structure, and AES and TSM widespread.
There’s a lot of tech that’s underutilized or used little at all. It would probably balloon BV per unit. But it would give the Clans a distinct technical advantage once again.
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Another way to go would be to substantively improve the quality of Clan forces, rather then the quantity. Make elstars a thing and give them advantages. Mainstream interface cockpits and EI tattoos. Normalize stealth layers on frontline omnis. Make use of ferro-lamellor and ballistic-reinforced armors, reinforced structure, and AES and TSM widespread.
There’s a lot of tech that’s underutilized or used little at all. It would probably balloon BV per unit. But it would give the Clans a distinct technical advantage once again.
I think we could be seeing that set up with the likes of the Alpha Wolf and other mech's with newer tech, poor Horses getting hand me downs it seems, everyone else getting new construction tech, now excuse me a sec I need to see what a ROtter would be like with Ferro-lamellar would be like...
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Another way to go would be to substantively improve the quality of Clan forces, rather then the quantity. Make elstars a thing and give them advantages. Mainstream interface cockpits and EI tattoos. Normalize stealth layers on frontline omnis. Make use of ferro-lamellor and ballistic-reinforced armors, reinforced structure, and AES and TSM widespread.
There’s a lot of tech that’s underutilized or used little at all. It would probably balloon BV per unit. But it would give the Clans a distinct technical advantage once again.
I’d rather see a more unified tech base with the clan/IS mech divide being doctrinal choices. That the IS is still behind technologically (to me) feels contrived already. A big surge forward for clan tech that leaves IS behind again just sounds… boring.
The ideas put out here, where clusters change in size and composition to match an IS regiment, feels better. It leaves room for IS to have crack units that punch above their weight instead of just “tough, your mechs are worse, you gotta bring more.”
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Even if clans run all Ferro-lam and Clan Interface you don’t gain a whole lot
Skinwalker: 24tons, 31crits
Stormcrow: 23 tons, 33 crits,
For a gain of about 10 armor points (in 5 damage groupings) among other things, for a lot of esoteric and extra rules. Plus while in universe they aren’t worried about BV, they can’t go making the BV disparity so large we can’t play the game at all. And in universe it’s a lot of work to justify that large shift.
Clusters need to change, and we are the only clan(ish) in any position to make that change. Our population, manufacturing, and ‘unity’ can lead to a third way (ignore that comstar existed at one point).
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‘unity’
;D
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Even if clans run all Ferro-lam and Clan Interface you don’t gain a whole lot
Skinwalker: 24tons, 31crits
Stormcrow: 23 tons, 33 crits,
For a gain of about 10 armor points (in 5 damage groupings) among other things, for a lot of esoteric and extra rules. Plus while in universe they aren’t worried about BV, they can’t go making the BV disparity so large we can’t play the game at all. And in universe it’s a lot of work to justify that large shift.
Clusters need to change, and we are the only clan(ish) in any position to make that change. Our population, manufacturing, and ‘unity’ can lead to a third way (ignore that comstar existed at one point).
One of the reasons I generally dislike using Fire Moths on the table: the map size is generally too small in most of my games to effectively use their speed. BV is great for game balancing… but when your mechs are all 2K+ BV versus their mechs which are half 3/4 the cost with the same weaponry….
I do think the armor/infantry formations of the Inner Sphere in the modern era ‘should’ give a significant pause to any opposing Clan force that we should consider such a switch to our own forces. First Line being offensive focused, second line being supporting armor/BA/ and Aerospce, and third line being garrison/defensive minded units (although those designations might want to be renamed). Upthread someone mentioned Claws, Phalanx’s, and Valkyries: that would be decent descriptions for the support forces.
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Even if clans run all Ferro-lam and Clan Interface you don’t gain a whole lot
Skinwalker: 24tons, 31crits
Stormcrow: 23 tons, 33 crits,
For a gain of about 10 armor points
The Skinwalker is one of the best canon platforms in the game, but it’s still sub-optimally designed (armor should be higher), and it doesn’t really layer on the technologies and show what can be done with them.
For example, the Prime on this Omni is a Stone Rhino clone that adds Void-Sig, Ferro-Lam, Reinforced Structure, and an Interface Cockpit. It inflicts a +3 targeting modifier on opponents just by staying stationary. When opponents hit, they’re facing over 340 effective points of armor (more if they’re using SRMs, LB-X cluster, etc.). And if they penetrate, then they’re up against doubled internal structure points and lower crit roll chances. Offensively, it can still send two Gauss and two large pulse shots downrange a turn, with the Void-Sig on, at a -1 to-hit (-3 for the large pulses).
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/ilclan-series-khan-great-wolf-assault-omnimech/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/ilclan-series-khan-great-wolf-assault-omnimech/)
This is a Hellstar with both an Interface Cockpit and Targeting Computer, which gives its four ER PPCs the same -2 to-hit modifier as pulse lasers. Interface Cockpits, AES, and Artemis V can also stack modifiers this way.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/doomstar-hellstar-4-variants/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/doomstar-hellstar-4-variants/)
No Interface Cockpit on this Battlemaster, but the combination of Hardened Armor (nearly 370 effective armor points), Reinforced Structure, TSM, and Clantech energy battery make it a terrifying enough.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/wargod-battlemaster-iic/msg1880038/#msg1880038 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/wargod-battlemaster-iic/msg1880038/#msg1880038)
Again, no Interface Cockpit, but this Osprey combines 7MP from improved jump jets/partial wing with 30+ point kicks from TSM/Talons, again with a solid Clantech energy battery.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/saker-osprey-iic/msg1872388/#msg1872388 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/saker-osprey-iic/msg1872388/#msg1872388)
And again, no Interface Cockpit. But this Mongoose can run 11MPs, inflicts +2 to +4 targeting mods at range with Chameleon LPS, uses Hardened Armor to sport the protection of a 50-60 tonner, and can still put two to three 10-point hits into an opponent with heavy mediums.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/black-cat-mongoose-iic/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/black-cat-mongoose-iic/)
I’m not saying these are the the end-all, be-all. But they show what can be done with aggressive use of tech and smart design. If there was a desire to make a faction that with qualitatively better equipment than the rest, there’s a lot of good design space that is not getting explored in the TROs and RGs. (Elstars are also unexplored if the quality of Clan warriors also needed to come up.)
Since this is a Bear thread, these are Kodiaks with real (not cosmetic) Claws and TSM:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/spirit-bear-kodiak-iii-ghost-bear-kodiak-iii-2-totem-assault-mechs/msg1887370/#msg1887370 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/spirit-bear-kodiak-iii-ghost-bear-kodiak-iii-2-totem-assault-mechs/msg1887370/#msg1887370)
Plus while in universe they aren’t worried about BV, they can’t go making the BV disparity so large we can’t play the game at all.
This is always the problem with ahistorical (and some historical) wargames. Gameplay demands fairness, but real war is anything but fair, so the games don’t feel like real war. “Realistic” Clan toumans would be pursuing these technologies and these kinds of combinations with abandon, not designing with one arm behind their back for decades/a century.
Clusters need to change, and we are the only clan(ish) in any position to make that change. Our population, manufacturing, and ‘unity’ can lead to a third way (ignore that comstar existed at one point).
I wonder how much military manufacturing capacity is left in the Terran system from the Republic, Blakies, ComStar, and Terran Hegemony that the Wolves can convert to Clantech and use to equip a new SLDF. Might be a lot. Would be interesting to see the return of SLDF division-scale units.
I do think the armor/infantry formations of the Inner Sphere in the modern era ‘should’ give a significant pause to any opposing Clan force that we should consider such a switch to our own forces. First Line being offensive focused, second line being supporting armor/BA/
There’s a lot of untapped potential in quadvees. They are fundamentally much more survivable than combat vehicles, and the canon designs are very suboptimal. If I was a Khan with lots of resources and wanted to stiffen my secondline/garrison forces, the first thing I’d do is replace most of my tracked and wheeled tanks with quadvees. Would double or triple the bang per crew. I wish they would proliferate beyond the Horses.
Protos are also untapped potential as a low-cost force multiplier. But again relegated to just a couple factions.
Both would help make the Clans more alien again.
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The other reason we're probably not going to see significant proliferation for most of that tech is because with the exception of things like the XTROs, TPTB probably want to keep most new mechs primarily tournament legal.
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The other reason we're probably not going to see significant proliferation for most of that tech is because with the exception of things like the XTROs, TPTB probably want to keep most new mechs primarily tournament legal.
Just remember "tournament legal" is a fancy way of saying you can complete a match in an hour without a small encyclopaedia.
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Which is why things like Interface Cockpits and Void-Signature Systems will probably never become so.
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Which is why things like Interface Cockpits and Void-Signature Systems will probably never become so.
Null sig and CLPS are not really that complicated when compared to things like Stealth armour and C3, and the Clans retained it, hmmm Mimir/Watch Nova with custom Dashers retrofitted with Null Sig and CLPS and Kobold IIC's
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Null sig and CLPS are not really that complicated when compared to things like Stealth armour and C3, and the Clans retained it, hmmm Mimir/Watch Nova with custom Dashers retrofitted with Null Sig and CLPS and Kobold IIC's
The clans outright abandoned Null sig. I think Null Sig is proably lostech to the clans at this time. Both the wolves (the Alpha Wolf and the Wulfen) and the Bears (the Koioto) produce mechs with stealth armor, the clans produce NOTHING with null sig. If they knew how to they proably would have used it over stealth armor.
One thing to remember is that there's no codified rules for cluster etc. the clans could quite literally double the size of your average cluster and it'd have minimal impact
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The clans outright abandoned Null sig. I think Null Sig is proably lostech to the clans at this time. Both the wolves (the Alpha Wolf and the Wulfen) and the Bears (the Koioto) produce mechs with stealth armor, the clans produce NOTHING with null sig. If they knew how to they proably would have used it over stealth armor.
One thing to remember is that there's no codified rules for cluster etc. the clans could quite literally double the size of your average cluster and it'd have minimal impact
There is no de jure cluster, but de facto they are 4-5 trinaries.
Doubling them without adding in ‘lesser’ forces probably wouldn’t do a whole lot. Adding in maybe another trinary of mechs and then 2-3 of support elements (in addition to adding more supernovas in general) would make a cluster very dangerous and close enough in parity to a regiment that it’s no longer laughable that clusters can compete.
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Doubling them without adding in ‘lesser’ forces probably wouldn’t do a whole lot. Adding in maybe another trinary of mechs and then 2-3 of support elements (in addition to adding more supernovas in general) would make a cluster very dangerous and close enough in parity to a regiment that it’s no longer laughable that clusters can compete.
The Falcons did something like this with the Turkina Keshik in the DA novel "Flight of the Falcon", by padding it with extra Trinaries, so there's certainly precedent for it in the era.
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The clans outright abandoned Null sig. I think Null Sig is proably lostech to the clans at this time. Both the wolves (the Alpha Wolf and the Wulfen) and the Bears (the Koioto) produce mechs with stealth armor, the clans produce NOTHING with null sig. If they knew how to they proably would have used it over stealth armor.
One thing to remember is that there's no codified rules for cluster etc. the clans could quite literally double the size of your average cluster and it'd have minimal impact
For better or worse Null Sig and Chameleon are on a different level to Stealth. Probably because there is only a crit hit, no mass. Everyone would put it on everything. Like TSM abuse. Arguably that is the reason we see Stealth used on Clan Mechs instead.
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Null sig and CLPS are not really that complicated when compared to things like Stealth armour
From a tournament perspective, all inflict the same modifiers, just different heat. They’re so alike that it might make sense to keep CLPS and Null-Sig out of core rules to avoid confusion, but not necessarily space.
They diverge when different unit types, certain advanced rules, and construction come into play. That’s where the word count ramps up.
and C3
Yeah, Interface Cockpits are very simple compared to C3. For tournament play, it’s just a couple modifiers, not paragraphs of text.
Interface Cockpits do get more complex when PSAs and construction are involved. That involves paragraphs of text.
hmmm Mimir/Watch Nova with custom Dashers retrofitted with Null Sig and CLPS and Kobold IIC's
The main advantage of CLPS, Null-Sig, and Void-Sig over Stealth Armor is that you can layer them over different armors, like Ferro-Lam, Ballistic-Reinforced, or Hardened. The design becomes hard to hit and hard to penetrate. With Stealth Armor, you’re stuck with Stealth Armor, which has no advantages over standard armor besides the to-hit modifiers at range. So I’d be tempted to change out the armor on those Fire Moths, too.
The clans outright abandoned Null sig.
No, the Scientist Caste retained Null-Sig and CLPS because both showed up in the Cephalus during the Jihad. Even if they were lost to the Clans, the Wolves could recover them from old SLDF, ComStar, or Blakist stores on Terra if a plot or design so required. The Republic was using Void-Sig, so the ilClan could even inherit that.
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From a tournament perspective, all inflict the same modifiers, just different heat. They’re so alike that it might make sense to keep CLPS and Null-Sig out of core rules to avoid confusion, but not necessarily space.
They diverge when different unit types, certain advanced rules, and construction come into play. That’s where the word count ramps up.
The main advantage of CLPS, Null-Sig, and Void-Sig over Stealth Armor is that you can layer them over different armors, like Ferro-Lam, Ballistic-Reinforced, or Hardened. The design becomes hard to hit and hard to penetrate. With Stealth Armor, you’re stuck with Stealth Armor, which has no advantages over standard armor besides the to-hit modifiers at range. So I’d be tempted to change out the armor on those Fire Moths, too.
No, the Scientist Caste retained Null-Sig and CLPS because both showed up in the Cephalus during the Jihad. Even if they were lost to the Clans, the Wolves could recover them from old SLDF, ComStar, or Blakist stores on Terra if a plot or design so required. The Republic was using Void-Sig, so the ilClan could even inherit that.
The rules for Null-Sig and CLPS including construction are about the same size as Stealth, if not shorter, unless there's rules that appear outside the book they're in, though Null-Sig doesn't have rules for inclusion on Omnis but CLPS does.
I built up a Fire Moth with T with Null-Sig, CLPS, and Ferro-Lam, it loses armour pips, but the added to-hit modifiers and resilience from Ferro-Lam I think might make up for it
It's a shame that no-ones brought back iATM's :'(
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I built up a Fire Moth with T with Null-Sig, CLPS, and Ferro-Lam, it loses armour pips, but the added to-hit modifiers and resilience from Ferro-Lam I think might make up for it
XL Gyro if you have the crits will free up a ton for more armor. (Interface Cockpit will also free up a ton and crits.)
It's a shame that no-ones brought back iATM's :'(
I liked the Society’s indirect EM and thermal attacks. Whether iATMs or something else, it would be nice to have more options in those areas.
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The Homies haven't sent anyone yet coreward, so there is that hope.
TT
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I liked the Society’s indirect EM and thermal attacks. Whether iATMs or something else, it would be nice to have more options in those areas.
ATMs have needed more ammo types for a long time. Especially compared to MMLs. Even something that allows indirect fire would be nice.
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The Homies haven't sent anyone yet coreward, so there is that hope.
TT
Well there's the Scorpions, they could have left with some of iATM's as salvage, the Horses could find information on them on former Falcon worlds since the Society had agents in the Flacons, Jinyi's Falcons could have access to them and also the Mercantile League, I don't know it the Horses had any Society members in their Scientist Caste or Fox's or Ravens, but there's ways and means
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Well there's the Scorpions, they could have left with some of iATM's as salvage, the Horses could find information on them on former Falcon worlds since the Society had agents in the Flacons, Jinyi's Falcons could have access to them and also the Mercantile League, I don't know it the Horses had any Society members in their Scientist Caste or Fox's or Ravens, but there's ways and means
Considering how the Falcons treated their scientist caste during the Jihad (Kill them all) I doubt there is any knowledge left in the Falcon OZ. Plus I would bet that those rebellious scientists destroyed crucial data just to spite the warriors. The Scorpions might be the only Clan outside of the Homeworlds that have any knowledge to even build IATM. The Horses have the base to build super heavy Protos I think though isn't that weapon system now considered obsolete?
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Considering how the Falcons treated their scientist caste during the Jihad (Kill them all) I doubt there is any knowledge left in the Falcon OZ. Plus I would bet that those rebellious scientists destroyed crucial data just to spite the warriors. The Scorpions might be the only Clan outside of the Homeworlds that have any knowledge to even build IATM. The Horses have the base to build super heavy Protos I think though isn't that weapon system now considered obsolete?
They still have the Svartalfa on the MUL for the ilClan era, they did lose the Sprite though, this doesn't mean the Svartalfa is still in production just that there's enough of them to be on the MUL.
Just because the Falcon Society Scientists deleted files, if they did, doesn't mean they deleted deleted them if TPTB want them back, they could pull a Helm Memory Core and do a "and the Society had a secret back up and X found it" in order to bring back anything from the Society if they wanted to and it would be a way to bring their Mechs back too, since the IS Clans (other than the Falcons) didn't really have the troubles with them, with new variants that are more fitting to the current story line or do a Scorpion trick of same externals, just a different name and internals.
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ATMs have needed more ammo types for a long time. Especially compared to MMLs. Even something that allows indirect fire would be nice.
I like the idea of more ammo types but choosing ammo and/or finding extra tons for an alternate ammo in most designs would be rough. Especially without the streak portion of iATMs.
IF as an ammo or launcher in between regular and iATMs would be nice tho. Probably more useful than ER, unless they have significantly worse ranges.
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ATMs have needed more ammo types for a long time. Especially compared to MMLs. Even something that allows indirect fire would be nice.
I kinda like that MMLs have taken the idea behind ATMs and actually done it "Arguably better" by simply using SRM and LRM munitions rather then new types of missiles.
I suppose the next step of weapons evolution as the tech trees draw together would be for the ATM and MML to be replaced by a "clan MML"
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The Clans suffer from a plethora of direct fire weapons. What is the functional difference between an Artemised LRM, a HAG, and RAC?
Access alternative ammo like TAG, or Inferno for ATMs would allow some differentiation.
By the same token I feel downgraded versions of iNARC ammo should be available to NARC launchers to make them more interesting.
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The Clans suffer from a plethora of direct fire weapons. What is the functional difference between an Artemised LRM, a HAG, and RAC?
Vulnerability to ECM and AMS, mostly.
Access alternative ammo like TAG, or Inferno for ATMs would allow some differentiation.
By the same token I feel downgraded versions of iNARC ammo should be available to NARC launchers to make them more interesting.
I definitely support this.
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I kinda like that MMLs have taken the idea behind ATMs and actually done it "Arguably better" by simply using SRM and LRM munitions rather then new types of missiles.
I suppose the next step of weapons evolution as the tech trees draw together would be for the ATM and MML to be replaced by a "clan MML"
Please no. I love the ATM (haven’t really played with iATM’s). But other than the odd size launchers that are neither SRM, MRM, or LRM sizes they work really well IMO. Sure Inferno or TAG ammo (or thunder!) would be nice.
MML ‘s on the other hand have ALL sorts of weird numbers where their ammo is and is a bit confusing to look at. Plus there seems to be no benefit over the standard launchers short of having backup weapons unlike ATM’s which give the built in ART-IV.
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MMLs main strength is that you can stick one on a mech and make use of practically any type of ammo you happen to have lying around.
But this doesn't have much to do with the Dominion.
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MMLs main strength is that you can stick one on a mech and make use of practically any type of ammo you happen to have lying around.
But this doesn't have much to do with the Dominion.
To slightly tie it in, our last offensive contribution was the small pulse laser. Some of it might be due to not being involved in any story.
And hardened, reactive and re-structure. I’m still hoping for Ballistic Reinforced, much more useful in most cases.
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The Dominion is definitely well-positioned to have access to Ballistic-Reinforced Armor samples for reverse engineering.
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I do too, but also it’s one of the only unique things the IS has anymore; alongside re-lasers, BA artillery (which we need), silver bullet gauss, VSPL, and the plasma rifle.
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Personally I'd be happy if Ballastic reinforced armor died in a hole somewhere. there are, 3 classes of weapons in this game. BRA basicly nerfs two of them, and the two that are the heaviest.
And unlike reflective armor there's nothing out there like say, RE Lasers that can do away with it, so really.. it simply dischourages anything other then laser builds for mechs.
barring that, some sort of special AC and missile rounds that can ignore ballastic reinforced armor would be nice
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Barring an official rule that says they don't, I treat Ballistic Reinforced Armor as if it were Hardened for purposes of interactions with special autocannon and missile ammo.
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Barring an official rule that says they don't, I treat Ballistic Reinforced Armor as if it were Hardened for purposes of interactions with special autocannon and missile ammo.
That seems backwards, it’s normal unless rule otherwise said.
Half of the idea is hardened the other half is reactive, one resists crits the other blows off when crit. They’d cancel out
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Between the rarity of BR armor and the rarity of ammo types that penetrate hardened armor, I don't see it as being a serious issue. Armor Piercing autocannon rounds are pretty terrible, I don't see the problem in making them a tiny bit more useful.
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So different topic: do the Bears have access to any BA that mount BA LB-X?
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So different topic: do the Bears have access to any BA that mount BA LB-X?
I don't think we do anymore, we used to have access to Ironhold suits, but they've been taking off of our MUL listing sadly
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Not really, no. The 3 suits that have BA LB-X are the Black Wolf (LB-X), the Ironhold (Anti-Tank), Thunderbird Upgrade (LB-X), and the Thunderbird II. None of those have availability for the Dominion.
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Huh. You'd think that between their love of battle armor and having the Horses as neighbors, the Dominion would have loved the BA LB-X.
Maybe there will be something in Record Sheets 3150, whenever they finally come out.
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You’d think we’d see the thunderbird with both the combine and cats using them. But I guess BA is more likely to be fully wrecked than other combat units.
Idk how much more BA we can reasonably get. The Rec Guides added the Elemental III, and the Mercs series added half a dozen more. 3150 NTNU has another 5.
We could get a BA lbx on the Callisto, but it’s not really useful at one per point
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Huh. You'd think that between their love of battle armor and having the Horses as neighbors, the Dominion would have loved the BA LB-X.
Maybe there will be something in Record Sheets 3150, whenever they finally come out.
According to the MUL:
Horses have access to the Black Wolf
Both sets of Falcons have the Ironhold
Clan Protectorate (by way of the Nova Cats) has both Thunderbirds
Basically all of the Dominion's current/former Clan neighbors have the BA LB-X. It may just come down to tactics and usage. Yes, the BA LB-X has its benefits, but I think the RD just prefers to use other weapons in similar roles. Most of the time an SRM rack can give that crit-seeking, maybe not as many clusters, but slightly better brackets. Anything that needs as many crit rolls as a point of BA LB-X can always just call in something that fills multiple other rolls like an Onirus C or a Fire Moth P.
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I mean we already have a good chunk of different BA Designs that they could adapt: the aforementioned brand new Callisto, the Rogue Bear maybe, the Golem variant we have with the Bearhunter AC’s.
The RecGuides are ‘finished’ (we’d all love more of course) so I highly doubt too many more designs are going to populate the universe anytime soon (unless IlKhan’s Eyes gives us anything). I honestly believe this will be limit of our designs until the next major TRO, if TWO 3150 ever comes lol
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I more meant there isn’t a lot more room for development of BA. Maybe squad weapon mounts will catch on, but the Callisto shows how limiting they are.
A few new variants maybe, but the AP Gauss is king shit of BA weapons outside of critting something to death.
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Rec guides finished up on the MUL.
We get the Blood Asp in ilClan era.
It’s got some wonky crit placement but it’s a nice addition
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Yeah, it's a good solid machine, even if some of the configs are wonky.
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I've always been more of a fan of the savage coyote than the blood asp.
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I’d rather have that too, our lighter Assault units are almost all regular mechs, not Omnis. I’m surprised it’s still around anywhere tho
But a 4/6 XL chassis isn’t bad, although it’s rougher than usual with its weird crits and configs.
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I've always been more of a fan of the savage coyote than the blood asp.
the Blood Asp fills a role that the Bears haven't had a 'Mech for for a while, a fast Assault Omni that can actually mount an Assault 'Mech's loadout (ie. not a Kingfisher or Executioner)
at least we have the Mastadon and access to the Turkina which fill the same role as the Savage Coyote
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the Blood Asp fills a role that the Bears haven't had a 'Mech for for a while, a fast Assault Omni that can actually mount an Assault 'Mech's loadout (ie. not a Kingfisher or Executioner)
at least we have the Mastadon and access to the Turkina which fill the same role as the Savage Coyote
Kek I've never looked at it and thought of it as a fast assault . Turkina is just..it's ugly to the point I almost refuse to use one.
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Kek I've never looked at it and thought of it as a fast assault . Turkina is just..it's ugly to the point I almost refuse to use one.
thankfully you've got Mastadons to play with then ;)
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thankfully you've got Mastadons to play with then ;)
At least my level of stubbornness isnt surprising ^_^. I'd really like us to start building Tomahawk II's,I've become enamored with it over the last decade.
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At least my level of stubbornness isnt surprising ^_^. I'd really like us to start building Tomahawk II's,I've become enamored with it over the last decade.
I have one ear marked for my command star once I do another IWM order
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I like the Blood Asp for style. Plus it's actually a decent assault on its own merits.
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I have one ear marked for my command star once I do another IWM order
I have one I've needed to assemble for years but so many pieces I've always found an excuse not to build it,which is why I love the plastic minis. I use them in my wolf nova Trinary and they absolutely rock.
I like the Blood Asp for style. Plus it's actually a decent assault on its own merits.
You're a blood spirit fan,you're obligated to say that ;).
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I too actually like the Blood Asp's aesthetics, in fact, the very first 'Mech I ever played was a Blood Asp
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I too actually like the Blood Asp's aesthetics, in fact, the very first 'Mech I ever played was a Blood Asp
Visually they look like a firemoth that drank steroid laced milk.
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I too actually like the Blood Asp's aesthetics, in fact, the very first 'Mech I ever played was a Blood Asp
MechAssault 2 on Xbox was my first BattleTech game ever, and I fell in love with the Blood Asp there.
You're a blood spirit fan,you're obligated to say that ;).
As a Blood Spirit fan, I should spit on it for being named as an insult by the Adders, but it's just too pretty and fun.
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Visually they look like a firemoth that drank steroid laced milk.
you're right!
this explains a lot actually, I did an art kitbash combining a Sagitairre and Locust, an Assault called an Uber Locust
must be I like the Light 'Mech on steroids look, lol :D
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I dislike the Blood Asp as a out of place computer game Mech, even more out of place in the Chaos March.
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At least my level of stubbornness isnt surprising ^_^. I'd really like us to start building Tomahawk II's,I've become enamored with it over the last decade.
I'd prefer to see the Tomahawk I put into production rather than putting up another assembly line for the Tomahawk II.
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I'd prefer to see the Tomahawk I put into production rather than putting up another assembly line for the Tomahawk II.
Seconded.
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We need a new line anyway, we don’t make a 100t standard chassis.
And also, why?
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I'd prefer to see the Tomahawk I put into production rather than putting up another assembly line for the Tomahawk II.
Maybe all the Tomahawk II needs is more variants.
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Maybe all the Tomahawk II needs is more variants.
It does need something that is more than 5 and 10 point clusters.
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We need a new line anyway, we don’t make a 100t standard chassis.
And also, why?
Because the Tom I uses standard internal structure and is extremely crit-packed in most of its configurations. It's not possible to build any of its configurations besides the Prime on the Tom II.
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A post on Reddit inspired me to go take another look at the camo/insignia deals on our art in DD.
I mentioned how I thought its was weird the khan, prince and galaxy commanders all had ghost bear insignia while the rest had RasDom insignias.
The Reddit post made me look at the art and see what galaxies had what insignia. The traditionally clan galaxies (Alpha, Rho, and their keshiks) used the old ghost bear insignia. The newer or traditionally mixed galaxies used the RasDom triangle.
I’m not sure if this means anything, is just recycling some art, or was just a coincidence/mistake.
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It does need something that is more than 5 and 10 point clusters.
That's my own complaint as well. The OG Tomahawk has 15 or 20 point clusters on the Prime, A, and B configs, while the Tomahawk II doesn't have anything larger than 10 points.
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I use the tomahawk to lay mines...more effective than you think ^_^
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Ok Polaris thoughts…and how it might lead to a ‘fix’ of the touman
It’s mentioned in the fluff they saw little use after the 2nd Drac War. The ones with Omega were recalled and mostly mothballed. Beta had a stars worth of them.
(The fluff contradicts itself and says 20 were built and they lost 3 (17), afterwards Beta kept theirs (5) and Omegas were recalled. 12 were mothballed (17) plus some were sent to Alpha and Kungsarme galaxies. So either 20 is wrong or Alpha and KungsArme didnt get any).
Why would Beta keep them? Why would they restart unchanged production (light vee bays are way better for transporting APC/IFVs)? Sure there were less mechs and therefore Omnimechs around, but Beta being one of the two premier galaxies should be more or less fine. It’s certainly less useful now for BA transport, as most front line galaxies are back around 75-80% Omni status anyhow. 20 vees can transport a lot more infantry than 10 points of BA. There is a big disconnect here in what service they provide and its actual use. Unless…They need vehicles for some use other than transport.
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My guess is it was too awesome and had to be removed for fear of bears just cruise missile spamming the combine back to the age of war.
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My guess is it was too awesome and had to be removed for fear of bears just cruise missile spamming the combine back to the age of war.
I mean that’s why they stopped getting built. I don’t care about that, I’m saying there is a reason betw galaxy kept theirs, and that reason is combat vehicles. We can use this fluff to leverage a change in how the touman is organized
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The front line Clusters spent the best part of 40 years with vehicle Stars.
I don't know if you have noticed that for tank transport the options are Polaris, Outposts, or some old SLDF ship.
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The front line Clusters spent the best part of 40 years with vehicle Stars.
I don't know if you have noticed that for tank transport the options are Polaris, Outposts, or some old SLDF ship.
Where does it say that? I just looked through ER and FM3145 and I don’t see it.
Wars of the Republic era mentions the front line galaxies (Alpha Beta Rho and Omega) use front line equipment, with minimal second line support. Second line could be non-Omni or assault BA or vees. It also mentions they were the first to benefit from increased production post-Jihad, which is said to be alot of Omni mechs.
Artillery in the Beta Galaxy portion was provided by above Polaris.
Only note of vehicles in relation to frontline galaxies was that the Polaris was initially meant to transport them, but it was used in an artillery barrage.
Sarna mentions, in FM3085, Rho using transport novas. But nothing about combat.
I’m not being argumentative just to do it, I just can’t see where it says that.
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My apologies. I could have sworn I left something in FM3145.
Probably a mental note that some kind of IFVs would be needed with so few OmniMechs.
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going back to FM:3145, I think we might be getting more toys sometime, or at least more production, p152-153, RasDom section, third paragraph, "Since the Blackout, all of these factories—plus a few new ones—have been struggling to gear up for the inevitable war", one is Jötunn BattleWorx, whom are the others?
Where does it say that? I just looked through ER and FM3145 and I don’t see it.
Wars of the Republic era mentions the front line galaxies (Alpha Beta Rho and Omega) use front line equipment, with minimal second line support. Second line could be non-Omni or assault BA or vees. It also mentions they were the first to benefit from increased production post-Jihad, which is said to be alot of Omni mechs.
Artillery in the Beta Galaxy portion was provided by above Polaris.
Only note of vehicles in relation to frontline galaxies was that the Polaris was initially meant to transport them, but it was used in an artillery barrage.
Sarna mentions, in FM3085, Rho using transport novas. But nothing about combat.
I’m not being argumentative just to do it, I just can’t see where it says that.
My apologies. I could have sworn I left something in FM3145.
Probably a mental note that some kind of IFVs would be needed with so few OmniMechs.
The mention is in Theta Galaxy and it's about the Galaxy keeping their tank Trinaries and transport Trinaries, Tau dropped the tanks as soon as they could, because they're try hards, (still want to know what's up with the Inheritors btw), Tundra also kept their vehicle Trinaries.
also interesting in what the NL-45 Transport is, is it just the Gunboat? if so that's a lot of firepower, "Hi I'm the 14th PGC and I bid a binary of BA and it's Transport Binaries... 10 NL45 Gunboats" :thumbsup:
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going back to FM:3145, I think we might be getting more toys sometime, or at least more production, p152-153, RasDom section, third paragraph, "Since the Blackout, all of these factories—plus a few new ones—have been struggling to gear up for the inevitable war", one is Jötunn BattleWorx, whom are the others?
When FM3145 came out there was no Jotunn, but there also was no Viper or Firemoth factory. I assume they mean numbers wise rather than new designs. They also mention in a few places the increase in sibko size, which should be testing ‘this’ year (increased in 3132, coming online in 3152)
My apologies. I could have sworn I left something in FM3145.
Probably a mental note that some kind of IFVs would be needed with so few OmniMechs.
I assume almost all modern clan transports are IFVs, mainly because if they carry infantry they are a transport, and as a mechwarrior I have stopped caring at that point.
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, (still want to know what's up with the Inheritors btw),
also interesting in what the NL-45 Transport is, is it just the Gunboat? if so that's a lot of firepower, "Hi I'm the 14th PGC and I bid a binary of BA and it's Transport Binaries... 10 NL45 Gunboats" :thumbsup:
Yes. NL45 Gunboats. Remember Kappa are the deep space escort specialists.
The Inheritors are still around and show up in DD briefly. Call it fetishising the noble savage if you will, but they the Dominion's friendly "natives" on the border. In varying states of "civilisation" they provide a useful skillset if a Dominion player feels the need for a code talker or tracker in their game. They don't really match up to any real world ethnic group except maybe the Amish. They are more generically tribal. They show up in Kappa as conventional infantry.
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Yes. NL45 Gunboats. Remember Kappa are the deep space escort specialists.
The Inheritors are still around and show up in DD briefly. Call it fetishising the noble savage if you will, but they the Dominion's friendly "natives" on the border. In varying states of "civilisation" they provide a useful skillset if a Dominion player feels the need for a code talker or tracker in their game. They don't really match up to any real world ethnic group except maybe the Amish. They are more generically tribal. They show up in Kappa as conventional infantry.
So no real planned story hook with them atm? (not that you'd be able to talk about it anyway) also a nice way to get some Scout infantry or TAG Spotter Infantry platoons in, now for a way for us to get Semi-guided LRMS
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Regardless of what the front line galaxies did at any point, with the Polaris back in production we should use it.
A more balanced cluster that can reliably 2v1 a Drac regimental type unit. Less so against full RCTs. Also adds some ballast against horde clusters the Horses still use.
Aesir/Titan 30 aero [1 trinary]
Polaris x3 (60 vee, 30BA) [2 trinary each]
Union-C (15 mechs) [1 trinary]
Overlord-C (45 mechs) [3 trinary]
Sasanid (15BA) [1 trinary]
3 supernova (15mech, 15 BA)
1 mech trinary (15 mechs)
1 weird ‘support’ supernova (30 vee, 30 aero)
1 ‘Transport’ [IFV] binary (20 vee)
1 artillery Star (10 vee)
60 mechs, 45 (225) BA, 30 combat vee, 30 aerospace fighter, 20 IFV, 10 artillery
That gives each front line galaxy a trinary of Polaris, 3 per 5 clusters. Maybe another 5 for dealing with spares and such. Binaries of BA have weird math for supporting trinaries, so it just had to work that way. Sasanid can be hit/miss depending on how supernova you want to go. If you don’t like IFVs or think everything should be mechanized already, move 10 to make an oversized combat Vee trinary, and add 10 to arty for (40/20)
All vees should be tracked or hover, no inbetween. Wheeled terrain restrictions make it too hard to get around outside of flat terrains or cities. Maybe VTOL for transport/IFV.
A Mule or other cargo Dropship can provide support and the whole task force can move on two Oddesey Jumpships.
Switch gears about rebuilding and factories and such, GTK used to build the Aesir/Vanir frames as well, but they closed them down per Objectives. It’s possible with the Polaris going into production at Alishan Naval Yards, GTK will pick up the slack in Aesir/Vanir production there.
All 3 of these ships appeared in the Merc RATs in DD so I would imagine they are producing them at high numbers.
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Sorry for being dense, but what indicates the Polaris went back into production? The bit about Theta in FM3145?
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Sorry for being dense, but what indicates the Polaris went back into production? The bit about Theta in FM3145?
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/clan-chatterweb/rasalhague-dominion-the-voting-will-continue-until-morale-improves!/msg1912176/#msg1912176
Combined with the fact it appears in the Merc RAT. Basically TBTB gave hard numbers on it the first time, tying them to it. It’s the old Wolf Source book problem.
Edit: Merc RAT in DD
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Thanks
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Switch gears about rebuilding and factories and such, GTK used to build the Aesir/Vanir frames as well, but they closed them down per Objectives. It’s possible with the Polaris going into production at Alishan Naval Yards, GTK will pick up the slack in Aesir/Vanir production there.
? TRO3085. "Reduced rate". Standard peace dividend.
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? TRO3085. "Reduced rate". Standard peace dividend.
Maybe they just stopped the Vanir as a pocket-warship.
Objectives-The Clans
Gorton, Kingsley & Thorpe have announced plans to take on JES’s Tyr hovercraft with a troop transport of their own. They have also testing a new Marauder IIC variant on Satalice. Finally, they will be ceasing production of the Vanir on Rasalhague. This line was built to provide hulls during the Jihad and the output had to go to Als- hain for completion. With the end of the Jihad, production of this large DropShip is no longer economical wise.
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(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/0/0b/Infan26.png?timestamp=20110119204809)
Are there any depictions of canon colors for the above? I know the Bear field uniform is greys and brownish-greys, but this doesn't look quite the same pattern. Also, how about the armor? Blue-grey seems a safe bet, but wanted some knowledgeable opinions. And it goes without saying it could be any colors I wanted for my games, I ask in case there is a line a novel or Shrapnel piece I've missed. Thanks!
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DD has a picture of what I’m almost positive is infantry, or maybe watch/irregulars.
But they are wearing light tan base/one darker grey/another darker gray in wobbly blobs.
P66
There is a watch Skulker C in urban blues
P88
Mechwarrior coolant vest is just a browny grey, looks like the over armor slightly
P80
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A post on Reddit inspired me to go take another look at the camo/insignia deals on our art in DD.
In this case, reading way too much into it. They should all have the RD logo.
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In this case, reading way too much into it. They should all have the RD logo.
Good deal
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DD has a picture of what I’m almost positive is infantry, or maybe watch/irregulars.
But they are wearing light tan base/one darker grey/another darker gray in wobbly blobs.
P66
There is a watch Skulker C in urban blues
P88
Mechwarrior coolant vest is just a browny grey, looks like the over armor slightly
P80
Solid references, thank you kindly. Do my eyes deceive, or is the infantryman on 66 wearing the same/similar colors as the Taiga Galaxy Locust IIC on 83? That would make sense, as the scene on 66 seems to the 4th Freemen taking control of the Benson and Bjorn factory on Spittal as described on the preceding page. And since the Freemen Clusters belong to Taiga...
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Solid references, thank you kindly. Do my eyes deceive, or is the infantryman on 66 wearing the same/similar colors as the Taiga Galaxy Locust IIC on 83? That would make sense, as the scene on 66 seems to the 4th Freemen taking control of the Benson and Bjorn factory on Spittal as described on the preceding page. And since the Freemen Clusters belong to Taiga...
It’s possible, them or the third, but no known RasDom cluster has been shown to use CI outside of a mention regarding Omega in 3145. If anything they are solhama planetary garrison troops, who aren’t ever mentioned in our ToEs.
End what you were asking about…
‘Garrison Clusters’ are just fancy words for second line clusters. It made sense calling them that in the homeworlds where the Touman was spread across a number of places that numbered in the dozen. They held a specific enclave or continent. Here in the sphere they have more planets than the home world did, let alone ones that the ghost bears controlled. It’s been mentioned before that planetary militia and solhama isn’t accounted for. Maybe another way of leveraging a ‘3rd line’ type cluster
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Objectives Clans has third line forces and they are a pain in the neck because they don't really fit with anything else.
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Objectives Clans has third line forces and they are a pain in the neck because they don't really fit with anything else.
Yeah I see that in looking again. maybe it’s time to restructure them into something useful
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I’m kinda surprised no sea foxes popped up other than to screw us over by telling everyone Alaric thinks we suck. That can’t bode well for our relations.
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I’m kinda surprised no sea foxes popped up other than to screw us over by telling everyone Alaric thinks we suck. That can’t bode well for our relations.
Relations with whom? The Dominion is already unfriendly on a good day with literally all of its neighbors and doesn't have any particularly close allies, the only ones who'd even give a frak about what Alaric has to say are already on board with him, and they're more or less as self-sufficient as every other realm. And since the Foxes have wares for whoever has coin no matter what the other Clans have to say about it, I wouldn't worry too much about them, either.
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yeah the Foxes aren't allies of ANYONE they very much march to the beat of their own drum (or swim in their own current if you want a tired cliched sea metaphor)
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Relations with whom? The Dominion is already unfriendly on a good day with literally all of its neighbors and doesn't have any particularly close allies, the only ones who'd even give a frak about what Alaric has to say are already on board with him, and they're more or less as self-sufficient as every other realm. And since the Foxes have wares for whoever has coin no matter what the other Clans have to say about it, I wouldn't worry too much about them, either.
The Raven helped us utilize our Warship slips, we have access to a decent amount of their stuff as do they of ours. ilClan might put pressure on the relationship, which might require a pivot down the line.
But it was more like, I hope we can fix our HPGs cause I can’t see us allowing the Foxes to do it after they f***ed up our referendum and helped incite the violence on Alarics behalf
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yeah the Foxes aren't allies of ANYONE they very much march to the beat of their own drum (or swim in their own current if you want a tired cliched sea metaphor)
They do seem to be content with being “King makers” than kings themselves.
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They do seem to be content with being “King makers” than kings themselves.
Not painting a giant target on your own backside does wonders for your health!
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Going back to Cluster sizes, after a bit of miscalculation on my part when playing with the DD RAT's, I accidentally'd, giving the following:
Six Trinaries and two Binaries of mechs, (110 Mechs) Binary for the CO and XO of the Cluster.
Battle Armour Trinary (15 Points BA).
PBI Binary (10 Points PBI), For Field engineers, security ect.
Two Vehicle Trinaries (60 Vehicles), Offensive Trinary and a Defensive/Transport Trinary?
ASF Binary (20 ASF)
So basically about two Clusters smooshed together, 1) this will bring our Clusters closer in line with a Regiment, 2) either cut down on the number of Clusters TPTB need to keep track off by smooshing or staying the same and increasing the size, 3) can be cut down into pre-smoosh Clusters/Trinaries/Binaries/Stars as needed for smaller actions.
Phalanx, Valkyrie and Claws can play with numbers more, replacing Mech Stars or Trinaries with PBI, BA Vehicle or ASF.
Granted smooshing would be better, otherwise we'd end up with ~31 regiments, and ~15 I think would be better if keeping track is better and IRL-adjacent things can be done, when two clusters are merged, taking Alpha Galaxy as an example the 1st and 3rd Bear Guards become just the Bear Guards Cluster with half the unit taking the Honorifics and sub Heraldry (Alpha Galaxy patch, Bear Guards Cluster patch, old 1st or 3rd patch) of the 1st and the other half the 3rd, 8th Bear Cuirassiers and the 73rd Battle Cluster become the IDK the 1st Cuirassiers Cluster and do the same as the Bear Guards Cluster.
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I don’t like that. It doesn’t easily fit into any standard Dropship set ups. It’s huge, 13 subunits. Not enough BA to compete with the regiments, even with canon low number Drac platoons we’d be outnumbered 4-1 (5-1 for other factions BA regiments, and something like 15-1 against Davion RCTs), and they have a CI regiment as well. (Holy crap, I just did some math for BA regiments it’s well into the thousands for IS formations. Even a bare bones Kurita regiment (at 3 subunits per higher unit, is 324 BA))
Vees are properly numbered, maybe a tad low for going against a regiment, but used smartly it can work. A aero binary isn’t enough and certainly not enough if the unit is ever split.
This is 2.5 clusters for a massive drop in combat effectiveness by everything but mechs and vees. And it only adds 20 mechs and 60 vees.
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[snip]
I tried mathing it out as 1 Cluster = 1/4 Regiment, it was messy, but 1 Cluster = 1/2 Regiment... that would give us ~24 Regiments-a-like (since we have about 4 Clusters per Galaxy) vs the DCMS 39.
65 Mechs, 4 Trinaries and a command Star
60 Vehicles, 3 Trinaries it would leave us short vs a IS Regiment but we're not the Horses
10 ASF, 1 Star, but again leave us short, but we're not the Ravens
300 BA
Change that to 1 Cluster to 1/3 Regiment so about ~15 Regiment-a-likes
45 Mechs (135), just over a Regiment
40 Vehicles (120), just under a Regiment
6 Points of ASF (24), dead on a Wing
200 BA (600), over a FC Regiment if no Command Company, under if it does
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Your battle armor math is wrong and it’s confusing. It went from 15 points (trinary or 75 individuals) to 300, which is 4 trinaries. Also a FC BA regiment is ~750-1000
Your assessment of our naval abilities is wrong, we have unnumbered naval aerospace assets, two clusters of aerospace just chilling, a Galaxy set up with NL-45 small craft. We are probably the second naval power in the sphere. 10 fighters is a joke.
In any case, what you have is almost exactly what I have for your half version. It differs by 50 total BA, 5 mechs, while gaining 20 fighters per cluster. Mine just fits nicely into dropships
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Your battle armor math is wrong and it’s confusing. It went from 15 points (trinary or 75 individuals) to 300, which is 4 trinaries. Also a FC BA regiment is ~750-1000
Your assessment of our naval abilities is wrong, we have unnumbered naval aerospace assets, two clusters of aerospace just chilling, a Galaxy set up with NL-45 small craft. We are probably the second naval power in the sphere. 10 fighters is a joke.
In any case, what you have is almost exactly what I have for your half version. It differs by 50 total BA, 5 mechs, while gaining 20 fighters per cluster. Mine just fits nicely into dropships
BA should be vs the FedCom 256 strong Battalion in a RCT not Regiment,
An Aero wing is ~24 craft, some 18 some 36, one is 51, so that's roughly what i was aiming for, but Carrier Dropships carry a Binary, we need some more Dropships that are catered to BA, Vehicles and ASF that don't carry a full trinary of them lol
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BA should be vs the FedCom 256 strong Battalion in a RCT not Regiment,
An Aero wing is ~24 craft, some 18 some 36, one is 51, so that's roughly what i was aiming for, but Carrier Dropships carry a Binary, we need some more Dropships that are catered to BA, Vehicles and ASF that don't carry a full trinary of them lol
that depends on era, by 3145 IIRC a number of RCTs are fielding full BA regiments
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BA should be vs the FedCom 256 strong Battalion in a RCT not Regiment,
An Aero wing is ~24 craft, some 18 some 36, one is 51, so that's roughly what i was aiming for, but Carrier Dropships carry a Binary, we need some more Dropships that are catered to BA, Vehicles and ASF that don't carry a full trinary of them lol
Carriers carry a Star, aero and vee points are doubled.
In DD we know they are back up to regiments and are upgrading everything else they have to fill RCT status.
The Dracs use 36 fighter wings, and they are narratively the only faction we can fight. (And the whole reason this deal come up in the first place). We don’t make carriers, we make Aesirs. And on a logical note 10 planes isn’t enough to assign a singe aero fighter per other star. 10 is embarrassingly ineffective, and doesn’t fit well the ToE. Clan tech is at its weakest in aeroland.
Yours is
4 Supernova Trinary (60 mechs, 300 BA)
1 Command Binary (5 mechs, 10 planes)
1 Trinary Vees (30 combat vee)
1 support Trinary (20-30IFV, 10-0 artillery) [transport/defensive]
Yours takes
Overlord
Union
Broadsword (mechs done)
3 Polaris (vees and half of the BA)
2 Sasanid (other half of BA)
Carrier (planes done)
Either a Star Lord and an Odyssey with one extra drop ship for supplies or 3 Odyssey with 3 open bays/2 after supplies.
I mostly agree with you, outside of your dismissal of aerospace.
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[snip]
If we go for a Binary of ASF there is nothing that can carry that other than 2 Carriers, if we go for a Trinary we'll end up with 60 birds against 36 if we fight 2 Clusters against a DCMS Regiment, but we'd be about on par with everyone else, granted that will cover the Clans weakness from the rules side, maybe, I don't play the Aero side.
The issue of the RCT is that we'll need 10 Binaries of BA per cluster to go 2 Clusters vs an RCT and that's a lot of bloat,
(1000 BA troopers in 200 Points, 200 Points in 40 Stars, 40 Stars in 20 Binaries, 20 Binaries spread across 2 Clusters, is 10 Binaries per Cluster).
Honestly I think Clan forces do need a buff now, but I think other forces need debuffing to meet somewhere in the middle
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Personally I don't have an issue with the aerospace advantage as I see it compensating for the lack of artillery. Indeed there are examples of it serving in the fashion all the way back in Invading Clans.
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Also in both our examples we are at a combat vee deficit. It’s one trinary of combat vees per cluster, for a total of 60 (2 trinaries per regiment equivalent). IFVs and transports are integral to BA and CI regiments, and not so in our versions of the new ToE. 60/36 planes vs 60/108+ combat vees, and 20/36 artilllery (if we do a mixed transport/arty trinary or nothing if we don’t; very bad idea as we are the Heuy AA makers)
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Also in both our examples we are at a combat vee deficit. It’s one trinary of combat vees per cluster, for a total of 60 (2 trinaries per regiment equivalent). IFVs and transports are integral to BA and CI regiments, and not so in our versions of the new ToE. 60/36 planes vs 60/108+ combat vees, and 20/36 artilllery (if we do a mixed transport/arty trinary or nothing if we don’t; very bad idea as we are the Heuy AA makers)
My first 1/2 Regiment has 60 so 120 for the 2 Clusters per Regiment,
But I think it's just easier to go for Regiment vs Galaxy, with 4 Clusters and just up the units in a Cluster to be 1/4 a Regiment if you include command elements, but that relies on TPTB stopping with the Cluster vs Regiment thing
Per Cluster, Galaxy in parentheses
2 Supernova Trinaries = 30 mechs and 150BA (120 Mechs, 600 BA)
2 Trinaries Vehicles = 30 Vehicles (120 Vehicles)
1 Binary ASF = 20 ASF (80 ASF, some being used to replace standard Arty)
8 Binaries of BA with Transport Binaries (400 BA with transports)
Another way would be a Trinary and Binary pair taking 5 each off of the mechs and Vehicles, and 25 BA off.
Not sure if bumping clan forces up is the best plan, maybe taking IS forces down to a Battalion + Command Lance and equivalent supporting forces would be better :-\ it would also stop Merc forces ballooning too, This all depends on what TPTB want to do and if they want to try again for a 3025-a-like setting but this time of their own design.
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Depending on what the developers want we may see a new kind of regiment instead. One that embraces a “cluster” type regiment not the other way around.
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My first 1/2 Regiment has 60 so 120 for the 2 Clusters per Regiment,
But I think it's just easier to go for Regiment vs Galaxy, with 4 Clusters and just up the units in a Cluster to be 1/4 a Regiment if you include command elements, but that relies on TPTB stopping with the Cluster vs Regiment thing
Per Cluster, Galaxy in parentheses
2 Supernova Trinaries = 30 mechs and 150BA (120 Mechs, 600 BA)
2 Trinaries Vehicles = 30 Vehicles (120 Vehicles)
1 Binary ASF = 20 ASF (80 ASF, some being used to replace standard Arty)
8 Binaries of BA with Transport Binaries (400 BA with transports)
Another way would be a Trinary and Binary pair taking 5 each off of the mechs and Vehicles, and 25 BA off.
Not sure if bumping clan forces up is the best plan, maybe taking IS forces down to a Battalion + Command Lance and equivalent supporting forces would be better :-\ it would also stop Merc forces ballooning too, This all depends on what TPTB want to do and if they want to try again for a 3025-a-like setting but this time of their own design.
We know TBTB are building back up, they spell out that FC is rebuilding to full RCTs, both us and DC are about to kick off a massive recruitment drive.
You keep changing things so it’s hard to keep track. I was hesitant to add so many combat vees, especially to our front line units.
4 clusters/Galaxy per regiment leaves us with 12, which is less than our Regiment Equivalent number now (2.5 cluster/regiment) of 20.
Trying to match a FedSun BA regiment is silly. It was just an example. Unless whatever organization comes out of this (if anything) expands into other clans, these clusters should also be able to deal one on one with other clusters we can expect to face; CHH horde clusters, CJF and Wolf plot clusters
2 trinaries of vees is 60 for 240, 8 binaries is (25*2*8=400) for 1600 BA suits per, plus the 600 from the mech supernovas.
You also should, if not need to, account for transportation.
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The Clans in general need to undergo a vast military culture sea change to survive in the long term. Clan culture was not designed to be successful in the Inner Sphere.
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The Clans in general need to undergo a vast military culture sea change to survive in the long term. Clan culture was not designed to be successful in the Inner Sphere.
That’s part of why we are doing this thought exercise, the RasDom is poised to be able to do this. They have the manufacturing and man power. Even the Wolf ilClan/Star League can’t say it has any of those, with an emphasis on them not having man power. No other clan power is in a position to do it, 2 former clans are galaxies in size. CHH and the Ravens don’t have people to do it.
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[snip]
Why do i keep messing up numbers atm, my apologies, my brain is not at it's best atm
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The Snow Ravens need to learn how to play the major periphery power game, something they seem to be doing. Having the Bears as an ally is helpful for this. They are not in a high priority area for the most part, which gives them a lower profile.
The Horses are likely viewed as a bandit kingdom, which will afford them some protection from conquest.
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Having the Bears as an ally is helpful for this.
What makes you think they're allies? The Snow Ravens haven't had any meaningful contact with the Bears on this level in nearly a century. Plus there's the fact that the Ravens are part of the "Star League" and the Bears aren't.
The Horses are likely viewed as a bandit kingdom
There's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case. They're still Clan, and the Bears still Trial with them as such.
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I do not think that the Lyran Commonwealth, or any other Successor State cares terribly much if the Horses are considered a Clan by other Clans. As far as a Great House is concerned, the Horses are a fledgling power who has been losing battles to other such powers. They can become something, much like a few periphery states did over time, and they do control a world as important as Tamar. They only become an issue if they have time to grow into something.
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As far as a Great House is concerned, the Horses are a fledgling power
That's an unsubstantiated assumption at this point.
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That's an unsubstantiated assumption at this point.
Not really. In the 3050s, the term Clan meant something quite different than in the 3150s. The moment Victor realized that the Clans actually feared them was one point signifying this change.
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Not really. In the 3050s, the term Clan meant something quite different than in the 3150s. The moment Victor realized that the Clans actually feared them was one point signifying this change.
This still doesn't mean that the Houses view any of the Clans as "bandit kingdoms". That term has a specific meaning in BattleTech and the Horses are pointedly not on the list of bandit kingdoms as listed on Sarna.
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Unfortunately, the sources it uses as reference are either quite dated, and/or do not cover it as an entity. The best argument for it not being a bandit Kingdom is its grasp on Tamar.
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What makes you think they're allies? The Snow Ravens haven't had any meaningful contact with the Bears on this level in nearly a century. Plus there's the fact that the Ravens are part of the "Star League" and the Bears aren't.
And whose fault is that Alaric lol
None of the (Inner Sphere) Clans are considered Bandits, and even the Scorpions are considered Clan but no one but the Foxes really talks to them anyways. The only possible Bandit Clan is the Republic of the Barrens’ (?) the psuedo proto-state Clan that the Horses sorta fund as a periphery tripwire force.
What I believe Minermech was trying to say is that thanks to their refusal of the IlClan the IlKhan may likely declare them bandits and dezgra… and who knows if the other Clans will follow it. On threat: He’ll who knows if the AML or Jiyi’s Falcons will even acknowledge the IlClan (or the Bears hopefully lol)
As far as ally’s go… in this day and age who knows: the IlClan has shaken things to their core. I don’t know who’s on what side anymore (even the fellow Bears!) but most of the Clans (pre-IlClan) stood alone except for a few rare cases of cooperation (Ravens and Bears of the Leviathan III, Horse Galaxies joining Falcon Mongols)…. A far cry from the 3067-3100 era I’d say.
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Unfortunately, the sources it uses as reference are either quite dated, and/or do not cover it as an entity. The best argument for it not being a bandit Kingdom is its grasp on Tamar.
The best arguments for it not being a bandit kingdom are 1) it's not in the Periphery, 2) it's not ruled by a despot (even as far as Clans go, the Horses are extremely lax when it comes to their civvies) and 3) its primary means of sustaining itself isn't, y'know, banditry.
In comparison to the LyrCom, sure, the Horses might be considered a "fledgling" power... a fledgling power that's controlled their OZ for damn near a century, holds dozens of worlds under their rule, possess a trio of WarShips (three more than they have currently, lol), and have already stampeded their way alongside the Falcons to Tharkad's doorstep. I doubt very much that Trillian is underestimating the Horses' capabilities and dismissing them as a bandit kingdom.
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The best arguments for it not being a bandit kingdom are 1) it's not in the Periphery, 2) it's not ruled by a despot (even as far as Clans go, the Horses are extremely lax when it comes to their civvies) and 3) its primary means of sustaining itself isn't, y'know, banditry.
It is in fact in the periphery, but it is not exclusively in the periphery.
The second has truth to it, but it will not sell in the Inner Sphere.
Many bandit states do not survive off of banditry, but rather gain off of it. The Horses have an interest in regional security which would be peculiar if they were an actual bandit kingdom. Being seen as one and actually being one are different things entirely.
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Well, in the interest of getting back on topic, let's just agree to disagree (alternatively, present some evidence from actual canon that supports the claim that the LyrCom sees the Horses this way, because I doubt it exists) and move on.
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Well, in the interest of getting back on topic, let's just agree to disagree (alternatively, present some evidence from actual canon that supports the claim that the LyrCom sees the Horses this way, because I doubt it exists) and move on.
I am not sure that there is any evidence on how the Lyrans see the Horses in publication. We can eek something out of the fact that they were aiding Malvina for a time, even if not in heart.
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Why do i keep messing up numbers atm, my apologies, my brain is not at it's best atm
I’m not picking on you (or meaning to anyway) I’m just trying to I don’t even know, ‘get to the bottom of this’.
Another note:
I think the RasDom and Ravens are still allies, there is a lot of stuff shared just between us still, we know they helped us with the new Lev III.
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Been working on a new bear galaxy for the mechroverse campaign. Lambda "The devil bears".
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Explain your clusters too! ;D
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Explain your clusters too! ;D
Yeah I'm terrible at that kek. For now I'll just say I've been leaning into the pr route. I will admit its heavily influenced by the 15th assault nova I've been playing with for over a decade. Ive decided not to harass jellico for dropship options untill I get to that point.
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Ok here's a preview of what I'm thinking. Also new "units" for the mechroverse if your wondering about the hueys.
Karhu
Kontio
Kontio
Mad Dog III
Mad Dog III
Executioner PR C3i 1
Beowulf PR C3i 2
Huey PR C3i 3 4
Huey PR Cei 5 6
Ostrogoth Point
5x Kobold IIc
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Nice nice indeed: look forward to seeing Lambda Galaxy! This mostly on MM or on tabletop too?
I similarly have been working on my own Galaxy in preparation for the new KS and have found I have both too few and too many mechs for my Galaxy. I either have three oversized Clusters (thanks Elementals!) or four undersized Clusters. Add into the fact that I’ll need stand ins for mechs that don’t quite exist in metal or plastic yet (Mastadon, Rime Otter, Kontio) and still need to assemble/touch up a full Cluster. And when the Kickstarter does come out I’ll have a full Star of fighters and hopefully what amounts to a Binary of tanks. I do need to do a full inventory to make sure I haven’t bought anything and not recorded it because I’ve done that before and ended up with doubles of things I didn’t really need (two extra Hellions, an extra Viper or two in metal (not plastic), a really bad old Dire Wolf plastic in terrible shape, etc).
As far as smaller units go… I’ve really only got my Wolverine Trinaries which are mostly complete and thanks to the last Kickstarter (and this one) now mostly in Plastic. I’ve taken them out often in play but rarely in full Star strength because of low BV games.
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Mixed unit type stars make me sick, although I can see using it to fully leverage c3i. I wish we went the c3i route when we had an option, it could have differentiated us. Especially with our hallmark being (aside from inefficiency and awful decisions) of mobility being taken by the wolves and the Warbear mechs.
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Mixed unit type stars make me sick, although I can see using it to fully leverage c3i. I wish we went the c3i route when we had an option, it could have differentiated us. Especially with our hallmark being (aside from inefficiency and awful decisions) of mobility being taken by the wolves and the Warbear mechs.
I'm a big fan of Raven Triad formations so I'm looking to that for a bit of inspiration.
Nice nice indeed: look forward to seeing Lambda Galaxy! This mostly on MM or on tabletop too?
I similarly have been working on my own Galaxy in preparation for the new KS and have found I have both too few and too many mechs for my Galaxy. I either have three oversized Clusters (thanks Elementals!) or four undersized Clusters. Add into the fact that I’ll need stand ins for mechs that don’t quite exist in metal or plastic yet (Mastadon, Rime Otter, Kontio) and still need to assemble/touch up a full Cluster. And when the Kickstarter does come out I’ll have a full Star of fighters and hopefully what amounts to a Binary of tanks. I do need to do a full inventory to make sure I haven’t bought anything and not recorded it because I’ve done that before and ended up with doubles of things I didn’t really need (two extra Hellions, an extra Viper or two in metal (not plastic), a really bad old Dire Wolf plastic in terrible shape, etc).
As far as smaller units go… I’ve really only got my Wolverine Trinaries which are mostly complete and thanks to the last Kickstarter (and this one) now mostly in Plastic. I’ve taken them out often in play but rarely in full Star strength because of low BV games.
Mostly MM,
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I don’t mind a triad, but mixing at the star level just seems difficult to pull off on more than an ad hoc basis.
Most, if not all of my classic is done via MM and against the bot, so BV and all that never bothers me much. For those massive units it’s the only reasonable way. But I would like to be unreasonable one day :-X
Expanding on my previous post, it’s disappointing we have almost nothing unique anymore.
Ravens have FL and space stuff (way more than everyone else combined)
JF has jumping around forever mechs
Wolf has taken our poor design decisions in the pursuit of speed, but added mostly sane armor levels.
HH are both the infantry and tank clan, plus the now unique horde cluster
We have reactive (meh) and reinforced structure, our elementals were taken away, the executioner can’t really hold up, and we have the two most powerful warships.
Two warships doesn’t impress me in the face of everything else, especially with ground combat, and mechs specifically, being the focus. We had the ‘perfect fusion’ until it turned out it was a fever dream
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The galaxy wont be all like that but I wanted to share the direction i was going ^_^.
As for the executioner,it took restless 6 years to finally beat the F variant, it's a git gud mech but once you do,wooo!!
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I’m not picking on you (or meaning to anyway) I’m just trying to I don’t even know, ‘get to the bottom of this’.
I didn't think you were, it's just my own frustration at the way my brain is atm.
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Anyone notice anything different in our MUL? They just did a big RAT review. We had earlier gotten the Corax (who cares) but not the Wusun. The Wusun is still not there, but I haven’t noticed anything new.
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for what era? ilClan?
hmm...did we always have access to the No Dachi, the Hitotsume Kozo and the Nyx?
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for what era? ilClan?
hmm...did we always have access to the No Dachi, the Hitotsume Kozo and the Nyx?
Yes those have been there since the start.
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for what era? ilClan?
hmm...did we always have access to the No Dachi, the Hitotsume Kozo and the Nyx?
It was from republic to ilClan
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So trothkin I was at the Long Island launch party: picked up a Phoenix Hawk IIC (The Devastator was gone and I rolled off over the Black Python/White Raven). Participated in a Grand Melee came 6/8 after taking a Gausszilla into the fight. This was my armor before the last round: right torso completely gone three total pilot hits, went unconscious for a round (and wasn’t shot), and ended up on the ground raised myself on one arm and put a crit into an enemy Saggittiare with my last shot. Good time.
Going back tomorrow: IDK what the scenario will be but I’m gonna try and snag the Ostsol and if not… IDK the Bane was taken too lol.
Also got on the Twitch Steam and said hello. Audio and camera problems aside the store got a call from Tex of Tex Talks … while we were on the Stream. Interesting times.
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Nice job with that Annihilator.
Reminds me of a time I took a Kodiak out and ended up with no armor left on the entire front of the mech aside from the head, but no internal damage and I'd killed the last enemy who could threaten it with an alpha strike.
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No kills, but pilot survived, and it was a blast. Just was chaotic and fun.
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Sounds great. Keep us posted on how it goes tomorrow.
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So smaller turnout which was unexpected for the store since 90% of the people who called them stated Friday was the better day. Anyways played a three man game of the titled ‘Hatchet-man’ where hatchet armed mechs duked it out. Opponents had an Axman5N, Hatchetman 7S, and a ‘random’ third mech (One player had a Hunchback with an Ultra AC/10, the other a Phoenix Hawk with a Large X-Pulse). Because we had odd numbers of players I hopped in and brought my brand new Phoenix Hawk IIC 10, a Hatchetman 8S, and a Grasshopper 8K. Points for Hatchet Kills and attacks, half points for melee kills and attacks. Circle of equals double map. 10 round time limit.
Opponent got a good kill with a hatchet that propelled him to victory but it was really fun and if I had a couple more turns it definitely would have gone my way consider my two melee mechs were a LOT less damaged. But alas didn’t happen. The P-Hawk IIC performed really well.
Took home the Ostsol to fill either my Wolverine force or my IS Merc units heavy cavalry.
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I had to miss the Palo Alto one on Thursday, ended up getting sick halfway through work Tuesday and didn’t feel good enough to drive that far even after a few days rest. I couldn’t swing it today either, still finishing up recovering. It was doubly upsetting as I had to miss the MWO launch party in SF all those years ago, I broke my ankle 5 days before.
All the reports I saw were it was a lot of fun.
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I had to miss the Palo Alto one on Thursday, ended up getting sick halfway through work Tuesday and didn’t feel good enough to drive that far even after a few days rest. I couldn’t swing it today either, still finishing up recovering. It was doubly upsetting as I had to miss the MWO launch party in SF all those years ago, I broke my ankle 5 days before.
All the reports I saw were it was a lot of fun.
Sorry to hear trothkin.
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So what do you all plan on adding from the KS to your Ghost Bear/RasDom units?
The Grizzly is a given, but the (small amount) of other clan mechs aren’t super interesting to me.
For me it’s going to displace my metal Highlander IIC (which will get moved to wolves), the Black Python (as a White Raven), Shadow Hawk IIC, the Phoenix Hawk IIC will get a old space marine power axe to double as a 10, and I am debating adding the Kraken and/or Locust IIC
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I'm going to grab me one of those nifty new Blood Asps just as soon as the pledge manager is open
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I'm going to grab me one of those nifty new Blood Asps just as soon as the pledge manager is open
Ooh yeah. I forgot about that guy. I think I preemptively added an extra salvage box for him. Might have to add another 2 once the late stuff opens back up.
In any case I am super excited to add to my spreadsheet and create a vehicles tab
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I think I’m going to end up getting one of each pack but only the SM1, Condors, Merlin (C Variant), and Clan mechs are being added to my Galaxy. Some of the new mechs are going into my Wolverine force, while obviously everything else goes to my Merc Regiment. I’ll pick up a Blood Asp but my Metal one is a solid piece and I have no problems with it. I’m not personally a fan of the IIC’s from the Cavalry Star but I can use a couple more lights that are not Fire Moths or Adders (I’d like the lump my Vipers and Ice Ferrets into that group as well as I have Waaay too many of each), but I do want that Black Python/ White Raven.
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I was also thinking of adding the Heavy Battle and Sweep Lance pack specifically because I kinda want the Patton (Axel IIC) and I wouldn't mind having a few vehicles
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I think I’ll be doubling on all vee lances so just for the sake of not needing to do that a few dozen more times to paint things in their factions colors, I’ll probably be painting most of them in a series of generic camos. Some of the more faction specific ones will get a proper color scheme.
I like the Pattons a lot but that they don’t match enough for my liking (wysiwyg) is enough that they’ll be either Lyran or generic camo.
I kinda forgot about the Merlin and the SM1. With only one of the SM1 I might just paint it up as a Ghost Bear also. The Merlin might fit well in with my 4/6/4 star and the Grizzly, but I think I’ll try for another faction first.
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Kodiak II 3
:o ;D
36 clusters, cause why not
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What do you mean 36 Clusters….
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Damage clusters on an Alpha Strike.
It’s a new record sheet in RS:3150
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That's a very odd mech.
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What do you mean 36 Clusters….
LB 20-X and a pair of MRM 40s.
I like the Kodiak II 2 better, only 16x 5-point clusters, but half go out to 21 hexes and the other are TC-assisted. Plus the HarJel III should help keep it in the fight longer and better protect the XXL engine.
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It’s another XXL engine mech so I’ll never touch it. But it is funny.
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Hey, sometimes crazy is beautiful. I'm into it!
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It’s another XXL engine mech so I’ll never touch it. But it is funny.
There is a Hermes II you should play at least once for the experience, but I digress.
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It’s another XXL engine mech so I’ll never touch it. But it is funny.
Between HarJel III and CASE II it's a little better off, but I get your feelings on XXL engines.
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LB 20-X and a pair of MRM 40s.
I like the Kodiak II 2 better, only 16x 5-point clusters, but half go out to 21 hexes and the other are TC-assisted. Plus the HarJel III should help keep it in the fight longer and better protect the XXL engine.
From what I read on sarna.net the Kodiak II 2 only has an XL engine or did I read that wrong?
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From what I read on sarna.net the Kodiak II 2 only has an XL engine or did I read that wrong?
Sarna doesn’t mention it but it’s in the record sheets. It’s kind of a big omission but it’s hard to fit all that other stuff without it.
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From what I read on sarna.net the Kodiak II 2 only has an XL engine or did I read that wrong?
Might be an error on Sarna's end. The Kodiak II has an XL. The Kodiak II 2 and Kodiak II 3 both have XXL engines. We've had the record sheet for the 2 for a long while, going back to TRO3145: Clans, so it's not something new.
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Sarna often has errors that persist for long periods of time simply because someone put faulty information onto a page and nobody who knew that it was incorrect checked it for a long time.
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A thing that you have to watch out for on Sarna is that the citations can be misleading. This metastasizes the issue. I will not give examples. Chicago short form and ibids are fine.
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I do not like that Kodiak II 3. I dislike the XXL, and the Inner Sphere MRM’s…. But that is hilariously funny. Plop it down in a city like a Hetzer with double blind and watch chaos ensure at close range. Looking again it’s oversinked. Woulda been funnier with an Ultra AC/20.
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I do not like that Kodiak II 3. I dislike the XXL, and the Inner Sphere MRM’s…. But that is hilariously funny. Plop it down in a city like a Hetzer with double blind and watch chaos ensure at close range. Looking again it’s oversinked. Woulda been funnier with an Ultra AC/20.
It's not oversinked: XXL engines generate significantly more heat than other engine types: 2 just for standing still, 4 for walking, and 6 for running. That means that it will gain heat on a running alpha strike.
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It's not oversinked: XXL engines generate significantly more heat than other engine types: 2 just for standing still, 4 for walking, and 6 for running. That means that it will gain heat on a running alpha strike.
Right…. Never mind then carry on. Still don’t like it but I’ll throw one into my Urban Company with at the very least four UrbanMechs (probably 8 and then I’ll end up an Urban Battalion and I’ll hate myself when I buy the UrbanMech company)).
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I have two and that is more than enough. (I might get the variant lance too. Just to be sure)
Changing gears…
But now every other clan faction has atleast one of their new rec guide mechs produced by IWM. Heavy on the wolf mechs. Think we will see ghost bear mechs starting next or they’ll finish up wolf or the falcons? Or even go with the new IS mechs first?
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Hard to say. Would be nice to see IWM's release schedule for the year.
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I’d LOVE to see the new Ghost Bear mechs even if they are in metal! But IDK how the IWM process goes so I couldn’t say. My personal guess would be they probably have a line from all the previous requests that they work thru and we’re somewhere on that list.
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Next question/musing
HAGs BV is probably too high, this is known (yes?).
Is the Shadow Hawk IIC 6 (HAG20 w/3tons) worth the ~150 BV more than the 10 (UAC10 w/3tons). Otherwise identical mechs. It’s 150 BV for flak, longer but not super effective range, and effectively equal shots and no jam.
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I'm not a huge fan of either weapon, but which one I'd choose probably depended on the rest of my force.
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Haven’t used HAG’s too often or recently for that matter. I think my next game will have one or two in my force IIRC
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The HAG 20 is more comparable to a Streak LRM20 that has an explodey gun than explodey ammo
Not sure about the HAGs heat, I'm away from my computer and resources
So is it worth it depends on do you want 5pt clusters or 10pt damage blocks
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HAGs generate some heat, but it's significantly less than a double-tap from an Ultra 10.
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its 4/6/8 versus 6 (for 20/30/40)
idk i dont like the cluster malus at long range. You gotta be lucky to hit with more than 12 at ranges greater than UAC10 range anyway.
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Im sitting here thinking…
We just went for a quickie war against the combine that could easily turn into a quagmire after our disaster of a vote.
Alaric wants to punish somebody for the destruction of the smoke jags, and probably is looking to do the same for the Nova Cats. Could that be his bargaining chip to get us to join up?
I don’t think he is in any place to actually offer support, but organize support against the Dracs
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It's possible.
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Alaric can offer support in the form of raiding parties and attacks on other Combine worlds using any of the Wolf, Terran Jade Falcons, Smoke Jaguars, or Snow Ravens. Even a few of those hitting different areas should tie down the Combine forces to where they are anticipating an attack from any direction.
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...Allowing the Cappies and FWL to overwhelm and destroy the tiny, faux Star League while its distracted trying to woo the Bears it alienated! I like this plan.
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Terran Falcons are out, unless they magic up insane numbers in the roughly year since the ilClan trial finished. Wolves are in a similar but better situation.
I was mainly thinking Ravens, they already have a border with the Dracs and a uniform. Smoke Jags I didn’t think about, what small numbers they have are well suited and trained for a Bulldog/Birddog type operation and the irony/revenge would be great there. Even s protectorate cluster or two might do well over there, they sure acted strange when the FWL was taking back territory.
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Any would Alaric want to get revenge for the Nova Cats?
The Jags were targeted by the IS, so yes, they could be avenged, but the Cats were Abjured for siding with the IS Star League...
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Everyone we see has been abjured.
I figure if he’s gonna take revenge he might as well get two Allies out of the deal rather than one. Both of them are at the feet of the Dracs. Might as well lump them together. Also might help explain the oddity that is what the protectorate was doing in the FWL/wolf empire.
Plus OOC: if the Smoke Jags who got a deserved on screen death can get revived the nova cats deserve a shout.
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Alaric can offer support in the form of raiding parties and attacks on other Combine worlds using any of the Wolf, Terran Jade Falcons, Smoke Jaguars, or Snow Ravens. Even a few of those hitting different areas should tie down the Combine forces to where they are anticipating an attack from any direction.
Not really. The DCMS can exterminate to the man any Wolf/Falcon raiding parties with little risk should they not absorb them. Bear in mind that the DCA is quite good at what they do, and will follow any deep raiding force quite easily. The DCMS may not be in the best of shape, but they did prioritize Republic space. The main reason it is a bad idea for the Bears to be moving in on the Combine is that the DCMS are both battle hardened and equipped to deal with the Bears.
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Of course, the FedSuns is also targeting the Combine at the moment.
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Too many moving parts and missing pieces to even attempt to figure out what is going on. We the players know there are Nova Cats and Spirit Cats, but who else does? No one knows what Alaric is planning and I am not sure the plans are still relevant. Honestly we need For IlKhans Eyes Only.
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Everyone we see has been abjured.
the Cats were Abjured by the Gand Council that included the IS Clans...everyone else was Abjured by a Grand Council that the IS Clans had basically started to ignore
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Of course, the FedSuns is also targeting the Combine at the moment.
We will see how many survivors there are from Palmyra. There is a possibility that the Suns may be held back by internal intrigue.
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Im sitting here thinking…
We just went for a quickie war against the combine that could easily turn into a quagmire after our disaster of a vote.
Alaric wants to punish somebody for the destruction of the smoke jags, and probably is looking to do the same for the Nova Cats. Could that be his bargaining chip to get us to join up?
I don’t think he is in any place to actually offer support, but organize support against the Dracs
Wolves can’t afford to do anything but face off with CCAF. They simply don’t have the people to do much more than try to secure the one jumpmbuffer around Terra. I don’t think they’ll even secure that for years.
Falcons don’t have the numbers
Jags don’t have the numbers.
Foxes could, but what’s in it for them? Why so brazenly tank one of their major markets and risk a Khanate? “By order of the ilKhan” will stop buying much if Alaric’s orders out others at huge risk instead of his wolves.
Ravens could, and maybe would. But thanks to blackout it’s something like six(?) months to get the message to ravens and the direct route involves going along the FS/DC border. So they get the message and just attack with the hopes that the RasDom’s “short victorious war” isn’t over in months and Ravens ended up attacking alone? Ravens might do it, but same as foxes, what’s Alaric’s offer for the risk? And Raven’s have already started something with FedSuns, so Alaric is asking a nation that supposedly has an economy stretch badly with the warships to engage in a two front war with two different larger neighbors.
My guess is RasDom vs DC will be isolated to just them
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Too many moving parts and missing pieces to even attempt to figure out what is going on. We the players know there are Nova Cats and Spirit Cats, but who else does? No one knows what Alaric is planning and I am not sure the plans are still relevant. Honestly we need For IlKhans Eyes Only.
Are you saying in universe people might not know the Nova Cats and Spirit Cats are related? The Protectorate has a unit called the 1st Nova Cat Provisionals
In any case ilKhans Eyes will be hopefully what ties everything together and gives us a better picture of the alliances that will form going forward.
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Are you saying in universe people might not know the Nova Cats and Spirit Cats are related? The Protectorate has a unit called the 1st Nova Cat Provisionals
In any case ilKhans Eyes will be hopefully what ties everything together and gives us a better picture of the alliances that will form going forward.
Support from Alaric for RasDoms shirt victorious war would come post-ilKEO in whatever books follow
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Are you saying in universe people might not know the Nova Cats and Spirit Cats are related? The Protectorate has a unit called the 1st Nova Cat Provisionals
In any case ilKhans Eyes will be hopefully what ties everything together and gives us a better picture of the alliances that will form going forward.
Kisho is a rumor at this point. In universe the Nova Cats are dead, though the Spirit Cats are a descendant faction.
Because we have all read Legends we know Kisho Nova Cat is lurking with a group of Nova Cats which grows with every retelling. Given Kisho is notorious enough to make it into the IlClan section of Legends rather than the Dark Age section we have to assume something is going to happen.
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Of course, the FedSuns is also targeting the Combine at the moment.
The Suns are exhausted though. And don't forget the Ravens have begun taking chunks of Fedsuns space. Much as I want to see House Davion regain more of their planets they have to do some serious rebuilding now (economically and also politically as a lot of nobles have become rather upstart with the absent of their First Prince)
The question will be if the war the Bears started at the end of DD is not going to bite them in their own ass. For one I can see the Combine turn fanatical because they never won against the Bears and Yori might want to use this to polish her image as the "Clan slayer" And let'snot forget while the population is united now (somewhat) if said war turns south I imagine new fracture lines to appear. And finally the Horses are right next to Rasalhague. What's stopping them from "It's Stampede time!"?
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If it does Alaric, weakens more clans for his own ego.
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Which would certainly be in character.
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No longer shall we be divided!!! Untill the topic of does pineapple belong on pizza.
I'm not 100% opposed to it. Maybe a little curious, I just think there are so many other topics that why would it even be done.
Also, I'll straight up fight a Trial of Annihilation against anyone who has a problem with me putting pineapples on MY pizza. Not Grievance, not Refusal... you're getting Annihilated.
big mic drop
Now, can we talk some Bears or WHAT?!
Sure. What about a Ghost Bear pizza party with the topics being ingredients taken from Draconis Combine farms and the pizza slicer is a katana, while making a DCMS bondsman watch. >:D
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Sure. What about a Ghost Bear pizza party with the topics being ingredients taken from Draconis Combine farms and the pizza slicer is a katana, while making a DCMS bondsman watch. >:D
Shiitake mushrooms on pizza would probably taste swell.
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Pineapples are good, pizza is good: pineapple does not belong in pizza. Just my two cents.
Back to the Bears: I tried the Callisto the other day but didn’t get to actually use them as the game was called on time really quickly.
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pineapple does not belong in pizza.
You mean it doesn't belong on your pizza.
(Sorry, it's just mildly annoying that this stupid meme is still going. People need to stop worrying so much about everyone else's diets and stay in their own lane.)
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You mean it doesn't belong on your pizza.
(Sorry, it's just mildly annoying that this stupid meme is still going. People need to stop worrying so much about everyone else's diets and stay in their own lane.)
No you’re right: not in my pizza. People can enjoy what they want.
Like right now I’m enjoying using the SM5 Field Commander and have found the rules for sideslipping hilarious. Almost side slipped off the map but ended up the next round passing four checks to get behind an enemy assault and double tap the rear torso. Fun times!
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I don’t think I’ll ever use the Callisto as it’s such a waste of everything. In almost no situation are you better off using it.
The unique SM5 or just the regular SM1?
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I don’t think I’ll ever use the Callisto as it’s such a waste of everything. In almost no situation are you better off using it.
The unique SM5 or just the regular SM1?
Unique: it’s also an OmniTank (with one variant) and the BV is high but it’s a beast. 9/14 (18) with BR armor. Ultra AC/20 w/ 4 tons ammo, TAG.
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I don’t think I’ll ever use the Callisto as it’s such a waste of everything. In almost no situation are you better off using it.
The unique SM5 or just the regular SM1?
Well now I know what I'm gonna spend my two week vacation in June practicing with!!
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So the Pledge Manager has been going out if you haven’t seen (or gotten yours out: be patient they’re doing batches at a time).
Now on mine I’m only Battalion level but the campaign unlocked ALOT so I’m ending up with like 10 Force Packs. My real problem being the swag.
Now I don’t mean I have a problem with it: I have a problem that I want three plus factions swag lol! I need the new Rasalhague Dominion, the new Clan Ghost Bear swag, and the new FRR swag… along with any new Merc units or other clans. I don’t have the money lol.
Do I need a dice tray, you know dice trays which I never use, in my faction? No… but did I order one?
Also no, I didn’t cave. But it was tough.
So anyways TLDR: pledge ‘finished’ and I’ll have at least a new Star of mechs and two points of Visigoths to add to my units… not to mention a whole IS Battalion or two.
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Any would Alaric want to get revenge for the Nova Cats?
The Jags were targeted by the IS, so yes, they could be avenged, but the Cats were Abjured for siding with the IS Star League...
The DC used nuclear weapons to destroy the clan's genetic repository. Even if this clan was abjured. That alone is enough. Alaric doesn't care about Nova Cats. Just like everyone else in the universe. But he can rally the clans on a convenient occasion. After all, it will be extremely ironic if Nova Cats will be avenged by Bears who despise them.
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I broke and got the vehicle force pack with the Pattons, even though I was trying to spend as little as possible for this
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I ended up with a lot of stuff. And way more salvage than I thought. I might have to start another faction.
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The DC used nuclear weapons to destroy the clan's genetic repository. Even if this clan was abjured. That alone is enough. Alaric doesn't care about Nova Cats. Just like everyone else in the universe. But he can rally the clans on a convenient occasion. After all, it will be extremely ironic if Nova Cats will be avenged by Bears who despise them.
Came to despise them, but how much of that was the Cats going 2nd SL and how much was Black Dragon shenanigans? part of me can see some Bears wanting to go at the DC for turning casual friends into enemies or for destroying a Clan in such a dishonourable way, i.e. using the Bears to do their dirty work.
Side question; Has anyone gone through out MUL in and figured out what unit rolls we have a lot of? Skirmisher vs Sniper vs Scout ect. it would be interesting to me at least to see how our Touman has evolved over the era's and extrapolate how we are mostly fighting going in to the ilClan era.
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Came to despise them, but how much of that was the Cats going 2nd SL and how much was Black Dragon shenanigans? part of me can see some Bears wanting to go at the DC for turning casual friends into enemies or for destroying a Clan in such a dishonourable way, i.e. using the Bears to do their dirty work.
Side question; Has anyone gone through out MUL in and figured out what unit rolls we have a lot of? Skirmisher vs Sniper vs Scout ect. it would be interesting to me at least to see how our Touman has evolved over the era's and extrapolate how we are mostly fighting going in to the ilClan era.
the cats didnt start raiding us without Hegira due to joining the 2SL or the black dragons. thats why we hated them, the other stuff made it worse.
I dont see the bears doing this for the Cats, but if Alaric can capitalize on the situation that works too. Also I assume the dracs are the first target for the smoke jags revenge as well. Although they cant take that many Ls in a row, unless the become the 3SW capellans narratively.
your side question:
I think that is a silly way of looking at things, given omni mechs.
a better way is to look at native production, speed and pod weight
Fire Moth: 6.5t 10/15(20)
Viper: 8.5t 8/12/8
ROtter: 18.5t 5/8(10) (re)
Mad Dog MkIII: 30t 5/8
Karhu: 30t 5/8
Executioner: 26.5t 4/6(8)/4
Mastodon: 45t 3/5 (re)
we have some second line mechs we also build
Kodiak/Kodiak II brawlers or missile snipers depending (4/6)
Viking IIC missiles (3/4)
Highlander IIC 3 3/5/3 (i think this is a refit from New Oslo which we lost in the closing of the dark ages. New oslo seemed to be a HAG foucsed refit facility)
Cyclops C, brawler that does ok at range (4/5)
some variatns of MAD IIC, long range (3/5)
Bruin a fancy grizzly (4/6/4)
Ryoken II (gross) long range (5/8)
Grizzly 2/3 skrimish at shorter ranges preferably (4/6/4)
Arcas of all varieties, skirmish at close preferably (5/8/5)
Kuma (gross again) hyper jumpy (6/9/8 or 6/9/6)
Gravedigger (grosser) (4/6)
a coupe Shadow Hawk IIC variants, skirmisher (striker via MUL) (6/9/6)
Beowulf IIC scout/striker (6/9(12)/6
Kontio, striker/scout (7/11)++
Horned Owl striker/skirmisher (6/9/6 or 6/9 or 5/8/7)
a couple locust IIC variants, sniper scout (fast)
Bear cub, trainer (8/12)
Ursus/II lots of variants for different situations, skirmisher
to answer the question directly we have alot of strikers and skirmishers but that is just clan tech. a huge amount of snipers and a fair number missile boats. a decent number of juggernaughts and then some (more than Jugg) brawlers. more scouts than i though, but alot of them are just fast and do no damage compared to having dedicated electronics.
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Stupid question, but how long do people think the “short victorious war” was the Combine will last? With the blackout, the war may be largely over by the time anyone else could hear about it and respond.
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Who are you worried about responding to it?
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I'm expecting it to be short but bloody. It doesn't look like Catalyst wants it to be the Next Big Conflict.
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It’ll be short unless Alaric decides to turn it into a quagmire. Although I doubt even with his absurd character and faction ‘development’ he can afford to deal with the combine.
Both sides have larger problems to address. For us all the useless lore we got is falling apart and the Dracs just lost half a dozen regiments and a dozen worlds to their mortal enemy.
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the cats didnt start raiding us without Hegira due to joining the 2SL or the black dragons. thats why we hated them, the other stuff made it worse.
I dont see the bears doing this for the Cats, but if Alaric can capitalize on the situation that works too. Also I assume the dracs are the first target for the smoke jags revenge as well. Although they cant take that many Ls in a row, unless the become the 3SW capellans narratively.
your side question:
I think that is a silly way of looking at things, given omni mechs.
a better way is to look at native production, speed and pod weight
Fire Moth: 6.5t 10/15(20)
Viper: 8.5t 8/12/8
ROtter: 18.5t 5/8(10) (re)
Mad Dog MkIII: 30t 5/8
Karhu: 30t 5/8
Executioner: 26.5t 4/6(8)/4
Mastodon: 45t 3/5 (re)
we have some second line mechs we also build
Kodiak/Kodiak II brawlers or missile snipers depending (4/6)
Viking IIC missiles (3/4)
Highlander IIC 3 3/5/3 (i think this is a refit from New Oslo which we lost in the closing of the dark ages. New oslo seemed to be a HAG foucsed refit facility)
Cyclops C, brawler that does ok at range (4/5)
some variatns of MAD IIC, long range (3/5)
Bruin a fancy grizzly (4/6/4)
Ryoken II (gross) long range (5/8)
Grizzly 2/3 skrimish at shorter ranges preferably (4/6/4)
Arcas of all varieties, skirmish at close preferably (5/8/5)
Kuma (gross again) hyper jumpy (6/9/8 or 6/9/6)
Gravedigger (grosser) (4/6)
a coupe Shadow Hawk IIC variants, skirmisher (striker via MUL) (6/9/6)
Beowulf IIC scout/striker (6/9(12)/6
Kontio, striker/scout (7/11)++
Horned Owl striker/skirmisher (6/9/6 or 6/9 or 5/8/7)
a couple locust IIC variants, sniper scout (fast)
Bear cub, trainer (8/12)
Ursus/II lots of variants for different situations, skirmisher
to answer the question directly we have alot of strikers and skirmishers but that is just clan tech. a huge amount of snipers and a fair number missile boats. a decent number of juggernaughts and then some (more than Jugg) brawlers. more scouts than i though, but alot of them are just fast and do no damage compared to having dedicated electronics.
Doesn't the Dominion also build the Hunchback C?
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No. It’s built on a WE planet. Or refit there.
We had the OG one back in the end of the CI era. I
We have access to it cause the Warbear was the driving force behind reviving it. I assume we trade Kontios for it.
I am pretty sure my list is close to everything we natively produce. I forgot the mongrel
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When the book itself weirdly touts several times that the Bears have never lost a war against the Combine (while ignoring that they've never won one, either) and specifically calls out the Bears' intention for their unprovoked assault to be a short, victorious war, I kinda doubt it will be either short or victorious. The Combine just wrapped up their big conflict and Yori just got done housecleaning, whereas the Bears are the embodiment of "internally screaming" right now.
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When the book itself weirdly touts several times that the Bears have never lost a war against the Combine (while ignoring that they've never won one, either)
I can read foreshadowing as well as the next person. I will be shocked if this is a short victorious war.
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If the Bears are looking at a war with the Combine, why did they land troops on Tomans in the Tamar Pact? Are they going in both directions, or was there other reasons to poke Tamar?
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If the Bears are looking at a war with the Combine, why did they land troops on Tomans in the Tamar Pact? Are they going in both directions, or was there other reasons to poke Tamar?
Recon in force. With no HPGs it is what you have to do to get solid Intel sometimes.
While going that way has been the superior option for decades there are meta reasons against it. That said there is a non-zero chance something stupid will happen there.
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When the book itself weirdly touts several times that the Bears have never lost a war against the Combine (while ignoring that they've never won one, either) and specifically calls out the Bears' intention for their unprovoked assault to be a short, victorious war, I kinda doubt it will be either short or victorious. The Combine just wrapped up their big conflict and Yori just got done housecleaning, whereas the Bears are the embodiment of "internally screaming" right now.
We are getting a repeat of the 62/63 war aren't we (but with reveres roles) and I wouldend be surpised if the Horses come stampeding through Bear territory again.
Which might break the entire Dominion apart given their current situation.
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Who are you worried about responding to it?
Worried isn’t the word. I don’t think anyone will respond to it. People seem to think Alaric is going to instantaneously know what is happening and have some sort of stratagem to defeat the combine that takes advantage of it.
I think it’s gonna be a localized, nasty, ugly war that blows up in the RasDom’s face because it doesn’t seem at all planned well and smacks of overconfidence.
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Worried isn’t the word. I don’t think anyone will respond to it. People seem to think Alaric is going to instantaneously know what is happening and have some sort of stratagem to defeat the combine that takes advantage of it.
I think it’s gonna be a localized, nasty, ugly war that blows up in the RasDom’s face because it doesn’t seem at all planned well and smacks of overconfidence.
I wouldn't say overconfidence, more blind panic, Alaric has shown that he wants nothing more than total obedience and has no respect for the internal politics of other clans effectively showing that the RasDom was a pipe dream and that IS and Clan can't coexist as close to equals with the like of Alaric in power, the DC attack is a distraction in order to provide a bread and circus to the masses to hide that the leadership doesn't currently have a clue what to do and is afraid to appear weak and get replaced possibly violently and with full finality.
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I am so confused at the current moves.. but then again every faction ends up at points doing the DUMB things.
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I am so confused at the current moves.. but then again every faction ends up at points doing the DUMB things.
If I understand it right, Pro-ilclan leaders are trying to gin up support towards joining the ilclan by having a quick, decisive war. Winners tend to get a surge in support and whatnot.
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I am so confused at the current moves.. but then again every faction ends up at points doing the DUMB things.
What did they say on Who’s Line is it Anyway? Welcome to the ilClan era RasDom, where lore is made up and doesn’t matter anyway?
Be nice if we did anything but dumb.
If I understand it right, Pro-ilclan leaders are trying to gin up support towards joining the ilclan by having a quick, decisive war. Winners tend to get a surge in support and whatnot.
Church has the right of it. It’s similar to the CHH ‘trial’ to own the Mongol Doctrine via Operation NOYAN. If pro ilClan units beat the combine that is the right way to go then.
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If I understand it right, Pro-ilclan leaders are trying to gin up support towards joining the ilclan by having a quick, decisive war. Winners tend to get a surge in support and whatnot.
Fixed that for you. The second plebiscite it a looming future problem. Right now, in this five minutes, they just want some unity.
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Haste makes waste. This will be the lesson Clan Ghost Bear learns...
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The fact that the Ghost Bears, of literally every faction, would need to learn that lesson is kind of stupid. The faction who has "slow to react" as a defining trait suddenly has amnesia.
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Strangely enough, people still make bad decisions even when they should know better.
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The fact that the Ghost Bears, of literally every faction, would need to learn that lesson is kind of stupid. The faction who has "slow to react" as a defining trait suddenly has amnesia.
Well it might also be a point of "getting complacent". The Bears had a very long time of peace (only the 2nd Dominion-combine war as short interruption) and they probably thought this peace was ment forever. Yes they "deported" their freeminders but that was still localized (contained in the Vega Protectorate). They came through the Dark Age so far untouched and this might confirm they had everything under control. In a way just like the Republic thought their society was good. Along comes Alaric and his demands and suddenly everything goes south. Fracture lines appear they have no idea how to deal with despite becoming more Inner Sphere then other Clans (though imho this reeks of dumb writing instead of believable reasons)
Also take it from a world build point of view: can't make the Bears subservient to the Wolves who only have 29 clusters worth of troops left (if those are even at 100% strength) when said Bears probably have double that before their own civil war. Which still makes me scratch my head how the IlClan wants to actually conquer the entire IS when they are actually at a rather weak point without much hope of reinforcing their touman.
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The writers would have been told there is going to be a civil war. We want brother vs brother for maximum nasty, and we want the war for this reason to tie it into the larger storyline. When the writers' jaws have been picked up off the ground the choice is pass or make the best of it.
If you stop and think about it most of these divisions go back to the 1980s. They just have never been explored. Battletech focuses on the elites while DD went low level, if only to get the required brother vs brother. A classic BattleTech tome would have just split the touman. You can see the thinking in Hour of the Wolf where the Prince is mute next to the Khan. DD hammers home that someone realised the civilians are in charge. Something that simple wasn't going to cut it.
Two reactions to DD struck me. First that those fighting were normal. Only weirdos are radicalised enough to pick up weapons. Most Clan descendent don't want a return to castes. Most Combine descendent don't think an ilKhan will save them. Most Rasalhagian descendent don't want to get rid of the Bears. But those that do stick up, are noticed, and influence society.
The second thing was Alaric-Senpai. Miraborg isn't pushing joining the Star League because he is gushing over Alaric. It is a cold prediction that in the medium to long term Alaric will succeed and the Dominion will be faced with a choice in a weaker bargaining position. Alaric's rejection doesn't change that equation. Plenty of politicians double down when initially rejected when they think they are right.
The dumb part is that population cared enough to start hurting each other. The less said about the Joiner reaction to the rejection the better. But given certain events ordained from on high DD at least tries to establish reasons beyond Alaric Senpai.
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I got the part about the civil war especially with the title. Personally I thought that Alaric would be reinforced with about 1/3 of the Ghost Bears clusters who believed in the iKhan era and left without permission. I felt the whole sibling rivalry going to far was hitting to close to American politics but I was neither the in charge nor the writer.
Thank you for telling us some of the behind the scenes events and pushing the story forward. It is forums like these that tell me writers and developers listen as well as respond with the best of their ability.
May the iKhan era bring about one of my favourite sci-if quotes “it is not the next frontier, it is the next battleground.”
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I got the part about the civil war especially with the title. Personally I thought that Alaric would be reinforced with about 1/3 of the Ghost Bears clusters who believed in the iKhan era and left without permission. I felt the whole sibling rivalry going to far was hitting to close to American politics but I was neither the in charge nor the writer.
Thank you for telling us some of the behind the scenes events and pushing the story forward. It is forums like these that tell me writers and developers listen as well as respond with the best of their ability.
May the iKhan era bring about one of my favourite sci-if quotes “it is not the next frontier, it is the next battleground.”
My current (biased) guess is several of the die-hard joiners will still abandon their posts to join Alaric. Though it’ll be after their foray into the combine backfires and pushes RasDom citizens against the league.
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The thing is, the Dragon will likely fight to annihilate. The Dragon may not succeed in destroying the Clan itself, but any diehards that run into the DCMS will either win their fights or become partake in the nitrogen cycle. Knowing what I know of the Combine's character, I could see them chasing remnants to Terra just to destroy those Clusters.
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The Dragon is crazy healthy. They lost a rebellious warlord and 5 to 6 veteran/elite units. They gained Marduk, an incredibly important mech producing world. They got YEARS of wartime production off of Robinson and New Avalon. They conquered more than a dozen planets in the Draconis Reach area. And now they are recruiting these quantity over quality Ashigaru regiments.
The Bears would win a short, focused war against them. Long term, the Dragon is still too beefy unless the Clans focus on them to the exclusion of all else (Hi Daoshen!)
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The thing is, the Dragon will likely fight to annihilate. The Dragon may not succeed in destroying the Clan itself, but any diehards that run into the DCMS will either win their fights or become partake in the nitrogen cycle. Knowing what I know of the Combine's character, I could see them chasing remnants to Terra just to destroy those Clusters.
If we take into account that Yori is now fully in charge and that the Combine has a big axe to grind with the Bears I can actually see that. Plus her Ashigaru initiatives have created a lot of militas on several worlds. If those are as tenacious as during Operation Bulldog the Bears are in for a very tough fight. Yes a lot of frontline commands have been lost or badly damaged against the Suns but Yori still has some forces left. And if the Bears bring one of their big ships into play I doubt the Combine is squeamish enough to deploy nukes just to get rid of those behemoths. Heck she might actually turn her army into fanatics saying "Look at these cowardly Clanners! They onyl attack us when we are distracted! Now let's teach these bastards a lesson they never forget and also send that so called IlClan a message: the Dragon bows to NO ONE!"
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I got the part about the civil war especially with the title. Personally I thought that Alaric would be reinforced with about 1/3 of the Ghost Bears clusters who believed in the iKhan era and left without permission. I felt the whole sibling rivalry going to far was hitting to close to American politics but I was neither the in charge nor the writer.
Thank you for telling us some of the behind the scenes events and pushing the story forward. It is forums like these that tell me writers and developers listen as well as respond with the best of their ability.
May the iKhan era bring about one of my favourite sci-if quotes “it is not the next frontier, it is the next battleground.”
I think the story hit close to American politics, but more so the politics of the 1770s, than current day. Back then there was a spilt among the people, an outside power pushing the friction to make a decision one way, and people of all levels taking up arms for and against the issue of the day fighting against neighbors.
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I am not sure when the moratorium on recent history cuts off, but De Gaulle riling up the French Canadians was mentioned in fact checking. Still jaw dropping.
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[snip]
[snip]
[snip]
Not only is the Dragon in relatively good shape, some very combat hardened commands, combat hardened troops being transferred to training positions and command positions in the new Ashigaru Regiments, they also have numbers with the new Regiments.
They will also be in a defensive war against an invading Clan... again, which will increase their recruitment rates and desire to win any engagements.
Also there's no RotS trying to keep the peace or Black Dragons to use as an Honourable way to back out for either side.
The Dragon is going to go for broke and Yori has been planning for the Bears to jump the boarders, this is not going to go well for the Bears from the get go.
This war is unwinnable, will be lost because those in charge (of the faction) are well short sighted is the nicest way to say it, and because Alaric Senpi UWU had a toddlers tantrum over not being seen as the Wolfiest wolf that ever wolfed, hopefully iCEO will shed some light on his decision, And maybe with how bad the war goes will result in the RasDom leadership being ousted and all this blamed on Alaric and the Dominion goes all Anti-3rd League because of it and the Dominion will get a loss and most of the other fans will be happy that they're not some super untouchable faction, and then the Dominion can have its own win, for its own reasons, on its own merits and the Dominion can stop being some other factions Deus Ex Ursai.
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If the Dragon goes for Alshain and manages to take it, they will have a decisive victory. It would also redefine Battletech's balance of powers.
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I don't think it would be wise for the Dragon to go for Alshain. I can see counteroffensives taking RasDom worlds, however, if any engagement lasts more than the few months necessary to communicate, plan, and counterattack.
Short engagement with limited objectives--Bear forces will sweep aside opposition. If they dig in and prepare to hold, might have limited counter raiding. If they go overboard, I think it get get ugly.
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Not to mention the Bears have a Navy that they can park over Alshain if they choose, making any run by the Combine prohibitively expensive.
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That leads to a classic problem called economy of force.
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Remember a few months back I asked about Mercs?
Mercs have been a major problem in previous wars. Typically they are used for deep raiding which requires defensive counters. Clan Sea Fox is "selling" mercs in the Draconis Combine. That is a wild card I can't begin to guess at.
Ultimately I suspect there will be a lunge at Luthien. It is an emotional target that will both enrage the Combine and draw in and pin units. The problem for us is that it is a man power sink when half the touman will need to play defence. I have put forward a plan that will minimise troop numbers and make for interesting play, but who knows? If we don't take Schuyler I will be disappointed. Likewise the old Nova Cat factories, though CSF administer most. There are a few other factory worlds in striking and then we are stuck. We can occupy about five worlds. The DCMS will start coming over the border. We can defend our own factory worlds, but there is a lot that we can't. We will end up in a situation of harderned worlds, exposed worlds, the gaping sore of Luthien, and endless raiding on both sides. We don't win that war of attrition.
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I really hope the Dominion isn't dumb enough to try assaulting Luthien.
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To make that strategy viable, you would need to evacuate all forces from any world Rimward of Orestes. They just are not defensible, Vega included.
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You nearly have to.
What is the end game? How do you end the war?
You need to apply pain and exhaustion. Luthien is a major factory world, the only one in striking range. Nothing else will do. I would love to get to places like Midway but it just can't be done.
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Bears better whip out that fancy new Leviathan, pray it doesn't eat a mouthful of ship-killer nukes, and then glass every factory on Luthien.
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Bears better whip out that fancy new Leviathan, pray it doesn't eat a mouthful of ship-killer nukes, and then glass every factory on Luthien.
I’d send both to make sure. Both Warships, the Valkyrie Clusters, a couple PWS Stars, and a Galaxy for a raid in force to mess up their capital.
But the DCMS trying another Alshain Avengers? I’d love to see that fiasco again.
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Personally, even being a RasDom fan as I am, I'm honestly hoping that they get their teeth kicked in by the Combine. They're long overdue for a real L, and the repeated references in DD about them not having lost a war against the Combine just smacks of overconfidence. I need to see them humbled.
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Let's not forget the Bears lost nearly a thrid of their touman in the recent civil war. Replacing those looses might be easy but you are replacing veterans with green (as green as that for Clan trained troops goes) troops. Plus the supply situation is probably still shaky. An d as I said several times: the Bears can't let their border with the Horses left unguarded. Rasalhague is next to the Horses border and should they decide to pay a visit it might turn ugly. Of course on the Combine side is for one: a rather instable border with the FedSuns who might take the opportunity to snatch some old worlds back (Sakhara V comes to mind) And we have the Ravens who seem to have engaged in a small campaign under the banner of the new Star League. If that spills into combine territory it would be a distraction yori doesn't need at the moment unless she can sneak in some DEST to sabotage Raven Warships (Kanzaki incident 2.0 here we go)
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This again ties into clusters being far to small to fight modern set piece battles. If the bears (or clans that aren’t wolf) want to get anything out of the modern age they need to expand; either the size of clusters or the number of galaxies.
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The very last thing the Bears need to do is expand their touman, and they certainly don't need to do so for fight in set piece battles. The only time we were really seeing those battles involving Galaxies/multiple Galaxies was during ilClan. Tamar Rising and the like have done a fantastic job of setting their battles around regiment/Cluster-sized units.
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Remember a few months back I asked about Mercs?
Mercs have been a major problem in previous wars. Typically they are used for deep raiding which requires defensive counters. Clan Sea Fox is "selling" mercs in the Draconis Combine. That is a wild card I can't begin to guess at.
Who’s paying the mercs? I though mercs are still hands off for clans
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In Dominions Divided it is revealed that the Sea Foxes are stepping into a MRBC role, acting as middlemen between mercenaries and clients. They are gaining a reputation for being honest (if tricky) brokers. It is specifically noted that Warlords are hiring through them. Ergo a number of mercenaries in the Draconis Combine will be operating on CSF contracts with whatever fine print the Foxes chose to include. That is a wild card that could go in a lot of interesting directions.
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Who’s paying the mercs? I though mercs are still hands off for clans
The times are changing. At least two Clan Jade Falcon factions have either hired or worked with mercenaries. There is even a story of a mercenary group dealing with the Ghost Bears civilian caste. Wouldn’t surprise me if some Clan Wolf or Jade Falcons also go merc if Alaric really goes off the rails (or angers them).
Remember the members of Catalyst want the return of the Third Succession War. A battalion can hold a planet, mercenaries running around, and plots and machinations around every corner. And most important of all everyone faction is out for themselves no permanent faction alliance, no Clans vs. Inner Sphere (in a global setting), and no Jihad or Reavings where everything is wiped out.
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In Dominions Divided it is revealed that the Sea Foxes are stepping into a MRBC role, acting as middlemen between mercenaries and clients. They are gaining a reputation for being honest (if tricky) brokers. It is specifically noted that Warlords are hiring through them. Ergo a number of mercenaries in the Draconis Combine will be operating on CSF contracts with whatever fine print the Foxes chose to include. That is a wild card that could go in a lot of interesting directions.
The Foxes don't include the fine print though. That's between the Merc unit and it's employer. The Foxes "only" mediate and if need be enforce the rulings. And here comes the tricky part: unlike the MRBC the Foxes have way more contacts in the business world. So if the employer has hidden accounts you can be sure the Foxes will know of it. Like this example of a Fed suns noble who didn't want to pay a Merc unit and when the Foxes pointed out "Hey use those slush fund you build up" he rfused. End of the story: the Foxes wrecked his estate and also told the March lord that there was a noble who embezzled funds.
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The times are changing. At least two Clan Jade Falcon factions have either hired or worked with mercenaries. There is even a story of a mercenary group dealing with the Ghost Bears civilian caste. Wouldn’t surprise me if some Clan Wolf or Jade Falcons also go merc if Alaric really goes off the rails (or angers them).
Remember the members of Catalyst want the return of the Third Succession War. A battalion can hold a planet, mercenaries running around, and plots and machinations around every corner. And most important of all everyone faction is out for themselves no permanent faction alliance, no Clans vs. Inner Sphere (in a global setting), and no Jihad or Reavings where everything is wiped out.
Jiyi didn’t want to hire them. It sorted worked out after the fact. AML is a weird beast. Foxes aren’t setting up contracts, just brokering them. Alaric made it clear he hates Mercs.
Who is putting out the contracts to do deep harassment against DC? FedSuns are gobbling up Mercs for border harassment. Ravens are still pretty hardline clan.
Basically, only group that would hire Mercs to help is the RasDom itsef to help with their war against the DC. A war championed by - for lack of better word - clan Crusader traditionalists. Not real merc friendly people.
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Both factions that merged to form the Dominion had a longstanding hatred of mercenaries.
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Both factions that merged to form the Dominion had a longstanding hatred of mercenaries.
Yeah. I do see Mercs having the influence to be kingmakers in this era, I just don’t see it specifically costing DC during RasDom’s invasion.
If anything, I would see Mercs getting paid to hit the RasDom more. Say… a fresh batch of several regiments of very angry MAC looking to earn a penny
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Brokers charge fees. There will be a contract.
Say Alaric whispers to the Sea Foxes and they now refuse to broker contracts with the Draconis Combine? That is an effect. Say they agree to cover 10% of costs for working with the Combine? That is an effect. Say they pass on the details of mercenary deployments to the Dominion? Say they offer discounts on Sea Fox Mechs to anyone signing up?
The point being there are lots of ways they can put their finger on the scales for fun and profit, either for themselves or for Alaric.
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Brokers charge fees. There will be a contract.
Say Alaric whispers to the Sea Foxes and they now refuse to broker contracts with the Draconis Combine? That is an effect. Say they agree to cover 10% of costs for working with the Combine? That is an effect. Say they pass on the details of mercenary deployments to the Dominion? Say they offer discounts on Sea Fox Mechs to anyone signing up?
The point being there are lots of ways they can put their finger on the scales for fun and profit, either for themselves or for Alaric.
And why would the Foxes do that? That would hurt their bottom line (not to mention their trust within the entire IS if this ever becomes public) so they will most likely not do that. And what leverage does Alaric have at this point? Being IlKhan? It doesn't make you very Ilkhan sitting behind a wall like a coward while your own realm gets devoured by the Mercs you angered. Alaric needs the Foxes more then the Foxes need him. He would have to give them some huge concessions to even think about breaking their own neutrality
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Brokers charge fees. There will be a contract.
Say Alaric whispers to the Sea Foxes and they now refuse to broker contracts with the Draconis Combine? That is an effect. Say they agree to cover 10% of costs for working with the Combine? That is an effect. Say they pass on the details of mercenary deployments to the Dominion? Say they offer discounts on Sea Fox Mechs to anyone signing up?
The point being there are lots of ways they can put their finger on the scales for fun and profit, either for themselves or for Alaric.
This sort of tilting the scales is something that makes me leery of Foxes as a broker, but this is something that they can’t come back from. It’s something they’d only do when desperate or there is a reward worth it. Saving RasDom from embarrassment is not worth it.
Foxes’ sales pitch as the new MRBC is as a reliable, even handed, above board, and willing to enforce penalties if a contract is breached broker. They could start playing favorites, but the moment it comes to light that they are, that illusion of even handedness is gone and the MRBC IIC is gonna have trouble. People will look elsewhere for brokers that will give them a square deal.
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Finished my pledge finally ^_^;;, cant wait for that grizzly! How bad of looks would yall give me if I said I wanted to paint a Pillager in GB camo?
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The 3Z is probably available to the Bears (can't check the MUL right now as it seems to be down).
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The 3Z is probably available to the Bears (can't check the MUL right now as it seems to be down).
MUL is working again.
The 3Z is on the Clan General lists from the Early Succession Wars (founding of the Clans) through the Jihad era.
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Finished my pledge finally ^_^;;, cant wait for that grizzly! How bad of looks would yall give me if I said I wanted to paint a Pillager in GB camo?
Well we are importing/ making Stealth Armor now…. Pillager 4Z -> C variant?
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If the Foxes refused to broker contracts for a Successor State, other powers would grow leery of them. It is not like Comstar with the HPG system.
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i expect the MRBC IIC, will be at least as fair and honest as the old MRB run by the Comstar. But anyone who expects fully fair and honest system... 8)
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If the Foxes refused to broker contracts for a Successor State, other powers would grow leery of them. It is not like Comstar with the HPG system.
It is funny that you mention the HPG system...
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It is funny that you mention the HPG system...
:toofunny:
I was referring to the fact that Comstar maintained an absolute monopoly over HPGs because no one else could provide that service. Yeah, I parsed that in a way that might make me seem aloof to who was buying up Comstar.
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:toofunny:
I was referring to the fact that Comstar maintained an absolute monopoly over HPGs because no one else could provide that service. Yeah, I parsed that in a way that might make me seem aloof to who was buying up Comstar.
The question is will the Sea Foxes try to sell mercs to the Ghost Bears or just merchandise.
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I think that the Dominion is going to have to be really desperate before considering hiring mercs.
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I think that the Dominion is going to have to be really desperate before considering hiring mercs.
So the Dominion won’t buy not the first financial error the Sea Foxes have. By the way have you heard their new sale on an Oscout IIC currently 10% off (sale started 3070).
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I think that the Dominion is going to have to be really desperate before considering hiring mercs.
At least inner sphere mercs, too bad the vipers arent still around ;)
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I think that the Dominion is going to have to be really desperate before considering hiring mercs.
I'm certain there was mention in at least one sourcebook that the Dominion had a back-up plan of some kind to mobilize/militarize their own population if they had to.
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And the DC has the Ashigaru Initiative. This has the potential to get as total war as BattleTech gets as various forms of conscription are activated.
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FM3145, pg 153: "Emergency plans exist for the mass mobilization of the Rasalhagian population, which would produce an army the other Clans could only dream about, but these plans come with a social and economic cost the Council is not willing to bear."
To be fair, Dominions Divided was probably the nail in the coffin to the idea, and lots of plot threads and story seeds from FM3145 have shifted under the newer regime. But still, the idea of pitting these two up against each other like that is a lot of fun to ponder.
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FM3145, pg 153: "Emergency plans exist for the mass mobilization of the Rasalhagian population, which would produce an army the other Clans could only dream about, but these plans come with a social and economic cost the Council is not willing to bear."
To be fair, Dominions Divided was probably the nail in the coffin to the idea, and lots of plot threads and story seeds from FM3145 have shifted under the newer regime. But still, the idea of pitting these two up against each other like that is a lot of fun to ponder.
Would that be all Rasalhagians who could serve the miltary? Or only the younger ones who are more fit for military service? Either way that would be an army no Clan has ever controlled. I could see major issues keeping the the cohesion intact for a longer time of conflict
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Well the Ghost Bear Dominion has never had a scenario on that scale that would require it. The FRR of course did and that was the Ghost Bears invading. I don’t know what our reserves would look like but I do imagine a lot of Battle Armor and Vehicles (obviously Infantry) sorta like the ending of ‘Trial by Chaos’ on Vega.
But as Tessa pointed out DD makes this sort of initiative sorta dangerous. To put a ‘hostile’ population with a lot of military hardware… you’ll need one hell of a threat to have them all cohesive and aligned in purpose: we’re talking DCMS invading first or IlClan declaring Absorption, Homeworld invasions etc etc.
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And there's the usual BattleTech problems: how do you equip and mobilize such an enormous force? Okay, you've got 50,000 regiments on paper, but they're armed with kitchen knives and can't deploy anywhere they can't walk.
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And there's the usual BattleTech problems: how do you equip and mobilize such an enormous force? Okay, you've got 50,000 regiments on paper, but they're armed with kitchen knives and can't deploy anywhere they can't walk.
Exactly: coupled with the patchwork HPG/ Pony express system that is wrecking your JumpShip fleets.
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And there's the usual BattleTech problems: how do you equip and mobilize such an enormous force? Okay, you've got 50,000 regiments on paper, but they're armed with kitchen knives and can't deploy anywhere they can't walk.
The only thing I could see for that would be akin to the Ashigaru initiatives of the Combine: turn your planets populations into armed camps (simple rifles and armored vehicles should be something most planets can produce by retooling factories) and you have at least a line of defense on your planets. But for offense when you need Mechs, fighters and real tanks? Not possible. Mech pilots alone need a lot of training and those also have to be produced or pulled out of mothballs / boneyard bunkers and get prepped. And as said before right after a civil war? That's brushing the line of chaos right there
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FM3145, pg 153: "Emergency plans exist for the mass mobilization of the Rasalhagian population, which would produce an army the other Clans could only dream about, but these plans come with a social and economic cost the Council is not willing to bear."
I honest think and hope that all nations have a plan like these to turn planets into armed camps that become harder to invade. I see Infantry and Armored forces, because we can raise them cheaply.. You aren't going to magically raise Mech or Aerospace Pilots and units for them to operate. Nor is moving them from planet to planet going to be easy.
The downside of raising Armed Camps is if they turn on Clan forces, the natives are armed and a threat to them.
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I honest think and hope that all nations have a plan like these to turn planets into armed camps that become harder to invade. I see Infantry and Armored forces, because we can raise them cheaply.. You aren't going to magically raise Mech or Aerospace Pilots and units for them to operate. Nor is moving them from planet to planet going to be easy.
The downside of raising Armed Camps is if they turn on Clan forces, the natives are armed and a threat to them.
I doubt the Wolves or Falcons had similar plans but again it could explain how some of their former holdings managed to raise an armed force so easily.
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I honest think and hope that all nations have a plan like these to turn planets into armed camps that become harder to invade. I see Infantry and Armored forces, because we can raise them cheaply.. You aren't going to magically raise Mech or Aerospace Pilots and units for them to operate. Nor is moving them from planet to planet going to be easy.
The downside of raising Armed Camps is if they turn on Clan forces, the natives are armed and a threat to them.
I would say that at least some planets have plans for that. Just look at Kentares IV during the Combine's push. The Kentares DMM build fortifications, the National Guard was incorporated into the command structure and every company on the planet began producing anything of military value. And as we have seen in the Reunification War it doesn't take much to turn a truck into a light missile carrier. Though I doubt this is something that is nationwide. After all a lot of planets are probably not able to build such a defense especially the backwater one on Periphery borders or planets that are only marginaly habitable. That might be a good place to entrap an enemy but not for long guerilla campaigns
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I doubt the Wolves or Falcons had similar plans but again it could explain how some of their former holdings managed to raise an armed force so easily.
The Falcons may have had one in general, but I can't see it ever getting used during Malvina's time as Khan. The Wolves have done something like that, offering warrior caste washouts a 2nd Trial of Position to fill vehicle/garrison units when the touman was low. They did it when they jump from the OZ to the Wolf Empire territory, they offered the former Marik and Lyran citizens touman spots, usually on the other side of the Wolf Empire so they could keep fighting their old enemies, just under a new banner.
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The Falcons may have had one in general, but I can't see it ever getting used during Malvina's time as Khan. The Wolves have done something like that, offering warrior caste washouts a 2nd Trial of Position to fill vehicle/garrison units when the touman was low.
Malvina did the exact same thing in "A Rending of Falcons".
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The Falcons may have had one in general, but I can't see it ever getting used during Malvina's time as Khan. The Wolves have done something like that, offering warrior caste washouts a 2nd Trial of Position to fill vehicle/garrison units when the touman was low. They did it when they jump from the OZ to the Wolf Empire territory, they offered the former Marik and Lyran citizens touman spots, usually on the other side of the Wolf Empire so they could keep fighting their old enemies, just under a new banner.
In FM3145 Malvina was grabbing anyone with an interest in being a warrior and shoving them in a tank regardless of their providence. Gotta get your cannon fodder somewhere.
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Whoops guessed I missed that. I didn't think she'd stoop that far, but vehicle crews are vehicle crews to most Clanners.
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Whoops guessed I missed that. I didn't think she'd stoop that far, but vehicle crews are vehicle crews to most Clanners.
She actually picked that trick up from the Horses, after observing firsthand how well their castes intermingled and worked together. It was also a power move against Jana Pryde, something she was doing to stir up sentiment against her during the Rending.
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Random interlude: our Capital in the Homeworld was Arcadia right? I remember we held the Toshaka Mech Works Factory and parts of Bearclaw with the Ravens but our capital was on Arcadia right?
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Random interlude: our Capital in the Homeworld was Arcadia right? I remember we held the Toshaka Mech Works Factory and parts of Bearclaw with the Ravens but our capital was on Arcadia right?
That was always my assumption, but I'll be damned if I can actually find something in print that confirms it! ;D
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Sarna tells me that Bearclaw was the capitol when the Bears were in the Homeworlds. IIRC Arcadia was one of the few places they kept before the reaving and after their move so...
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Sarna tells me that Bearclaw was the capitol when the Bears were in the Homeworlds.
Beware Sarna and those uncited sources.
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The Dominion Council Hall is in Alshain (source Dark Age: Touring the Stars 3130)
Rascalhague is where the Executive is (source unknown)
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He means before the move to Alshain/the Inner Sphere.
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He means before the move to Alshain/the Inner Sphere.
Thanks for the correction and actually found a credited source
Field Manual: Warden Clans pg. 88 identifies Alshain as the capital of Clan Ghost Bear.
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Thanks for the correction and actually found a credited source
Field Manual: Warden Clans pg. 88 identifies Alshain as the capital of Clan Ghost Bear.
That's still post-migration to the Inner Sphere. We're talking about before that time.
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Looking through Dominions Divided again, and taking together all the great amounts of spontaneous violence and dissent that comes from opposing views, the simmering tensions lying dormant underneath the surface, that have been briefly bottled up into an unwatched pressure cooker by a 'quick and easy' campaign against the Combine, which has a clear means of both escalating and going extremely badly, extremely quickly, in a political, economic and military sense, whilst also adding in the prospect of armed Rasalhagian conscripts;
I'd rather the consequences of this misadventure are more genuinely serious in a follow-up outcome than not; like, not discounting irrevocably breaking the Dominion apart in an actual civil war/revolt into their own radicalised Rasalhague and Bear factions-style serious.
It's my opinion, but I think it'd provide more fresh air, and fertile grounds going forward for both Rasalhague and Bears, both in and out of fiction.
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I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think that would be the laziest turn the fiction could possibly take.
The Rasalhague Dominion is one of the most complex and interesting creations in BattleTech's written history, a true fusion of Clan and Spheroid that has become something greater than the whole. To just break that up during the first actual internal crisis they've experienced is simply not true to their shared story to date and does all of that groundwork a huge disservice. The RasDom has earned its right to exist and not see the writers go the lazy route.
And that's leaving aside the fact that an actual sundering of the RasDom into its constituent parts would be an unmitigated disaster of catastrophic proportions for everyone involved, and for very little payoff. With the Horses and their new aggressive Khan on the left and the Combine ready and waiting to reclaim their worlds on the right, we'd be looking at a new Hinterlands/Chaos March at best... but more likely a whole lotta Combine red on the map.
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Also, "break it apart into a bunch of sub-factions" has kind of been done to death in Battletech over the last couple decades. There was the FWL, the RotS, the Tamar Region...
Also it's going to be boring if the Horses wind up being the most powerful Clan just by default.
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Also it's going to be boring if the Horses wind up being the most powerful Clan just by default.
Hell, I'm still getting used to the fact that the Jade Falcons as we knew them are gone. We don't need to lose the RasDom on top of that.
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Hell, I'm still getting used to the fact that the Jade Falcons as we knew them are gone. We don't need to lose the RasDom on top of that.
That's another reason. The IlClan Era is already marked by the destruction of several factions, destroying more runs the risk of completely alienating fans. Like what most of us (incorrectly, as it turned out) happened when Mechwarrior Clix was first introduced.
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I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think that would be the laziest turn the fiction could possibly take.
The Rasalhague Dominion is one of the most complex and interesting creations in BattleTech's written history, a true fusion of Clan and Spheroid that has become something greater than the whole. To just break that up during the first actual internal crisis they've experienced is simply not true to their shared story to date and does all of that groundwork a huge disservice. The RasDom has earned its right to exist and not see the writers go the lazy route.
And that's leaving aside the fact that an actual sundering of the RasDom into its constituent parts would be an unmitigated disaster of catastrophic proportions for everyone involved, and for very little payoff.
I'm speaking in generalities, but honestly, I feel as though a polite dust-up and hair-trimming of the Dominion touman to fit the ilClan plotline, ready to sit there and prepare for the 4th Bear-Combine War for the next real life decade, while stuck being forced to play Happy Families, isn't very engaging.
As for the Dominion being one of the most complex or interesting creations of Battletech, or it living up to it's 'true fusion' advertisement, or it's earning an irrevocable right to exist, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't really get anything from it as a Rasalhague fan as much as I might if I were a Ghost Bear fan myself, but I don't want to push anyone's buttons at all.
The ensuing geopolitics aside; that can be written a number of flexible ways, favourable to many parties, depending on the bigger IlClan story in mind, there are greater factors at play with neighbours, and no-one has a truly free hand they can play.
I'd rather we roll with the punches and create interesting and new conflicts, instead of spending the next decade retrospectively tinkering to justify a cuddly status quo that frankly only really services Clan Ghost Bear fans, no offense intended.
I feel as though you can only broaden opportunities for good stories by providing Rasalhague fans and Ghost Bears with their own separate consolidated factions and goals again; it's not the first or the last time to see faction splits, and there seems to be a useful opportunity to potentially do that.
Going through a tremendous time of dissent, upheaval, war, and potentially, failure, just to end up with Bears being more entrenched in Rasalhague than ever would be a tiring waste of effort, and as a Rasalhague fan, kind of sad and embarassing from a personal perspective.
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I'm speaking in generalities, but honestly, I feel as though a polite dust-up and hair-trimming of the Dominion touman to fit the ilClan plotline, ready to sit there and prepare for the 4th Bear-Combine War for the next real life decade, while stuck being forced to play Happy Families, isn't very engaging.
Given that pretty much every comment you've ever made in the RasDom's thread, as well as the Dominions Divided discussion thread, has almost *always* plugged an anti-Bear/pro-independent Rasalhague stance of some sort (I pay attention), and given that that bias continues on further in your comment that I'm parsing right now, yes, it makes sense that you wouldn't feel engaged. ;D
As for the Dominion being one of the most complex or interesting creations of Battletech, or it living up to it's 'true fusion' advertisement, or it's earning an irrevocable right to exist, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't really get anything from it as a Rasalhague fan as much as I might if I were a Ghost Bear fan myself, but I don't want to push anyone's buttons at all.
I mean, you're literally coming into the RasDom thread and saying that the faction isn't complex or interesting or even has a right to exist. What do you even say to that?
The ensuing geopolitics aside; that can be written a number of flexible ways, favourable to many parties, depending on the bigger IlClan story in mind, there are greater factors at play with neighbours, and no-one has a truly free hand they can play.
At the end of the day, the writers can choose to do whatever they want to get from Point A to Point B, as evidenced by Dominions Divided itself, so it's really anyone's guess at this point.
I'd rather we roll with the punches and create interesting and new conflicts, instead of spending the next decade retrospectively tinkering to justify a cuddly status quo that frankly only really services Clan Ghost Bear fans, no offense intended.
The RasDom working out their problems, as opposed to yet another random civil war, is literally the definition of rolling with the punches.
As for the "cuddly status quo", to say it only services Ghost Bear fans is simply ridiculous. Rasalhague as a people haven't mattered this much in the metaplot of BattleTech, like, ever.
I feel as though you can only broaden opportunities for good stories by providing Rasalhague fans and Ghost Bears with their own separate consolidated factions and goals again; it's not the first or the last time to see faction splits, and there seems to be a useful opportunity to potentially do that.
Going through a tremendous time of dissent, upheaval, war, and potentially, failure, just to end up with Bears being more entrenched in Rasalhague than ever would be a tiring waste of effort, and as a Rasalhague fan, kind of sad and embarassing from a personal perspective.
Now take that same energy and explain to the RasDom fans, in their own thread, how breaking up the faction that has been built up over decades of real time publication and a century of in-universe, to appease the minority of fans longing for a Rasalhague that never mattered as much as Rasalhague does now, isn't sad, embarrassing and a tiring waste of effort.
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* rant *
I really wish people would stop viewing Dominions Divided through a Rasalhague vs Ghost Bear lens. It is repeatedly made very clear that that is not the point of division and the Ghost Bear OZ has more ethnic groups than faux Scandinavians. Just about every group has members on both sides of several issues.
* rant *
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Sarna tells me that Bearclaw was the capitol when the Bears were in the Homeworlds. IIRC Arcadia was one of the few places they kept before the reaving and after their move so...
I checked every Clan-oriented sourcebook I have, couldn't dig up a definite answer. For what it's worth Bearclaw in 3062 did have a population on par with other Clan capitals, as opposed to known non-capitals like Brim, Paxon or Vinton.
I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think that would be the laziest turn the fiction could possibly take.
The Rasalhague Dominion is one of the most complex and interesting creations in BattleTech's written history, a true fusion of Clan and Spheroid that has become something greater than the whole. To just break that up during the first actual internal crisis they've experienced is simply not true to their shared story to date and does all of that groundwork a huge disservice. The RasDom has earned its right to exist and not see the writers go the lazy route.
Couldn't agree more with this. If the nation totally collapses instead of recovering and drubbing the Combine, that'll be the biggest letdown for me since MWDA was released with no info on every faction I actually knew and cared about. They don't have to crush the Combine, just win a definite victory and hopefully raise the bear-and-triangle banner over Luthien :D
* rant *
I really wish people would stop viewing Dominions Divided through a Rasalhague vs Ghost Bear lens. It is repeatedly made very clear that that is not the point of division and the Ghost Bear OZ has more ethnic groups than faux Scandinavians. Just about every group has members on both sides of several issues.
* rant *
I'm actually surprised anyone who read Dominions Divided could still think the nation's biggest split is along pure ethnic lines. IMHO the book made it very clear that the main division now was ideological, even if some regions or groups had a higher percentage of one or the other. Kudos for actually giving some screentime to the Kuritans, ex-Wolves and Vegan minorities as well - too often large factions in BattleTech seem to be more monolithic than the sourcebooks indicate.
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Isn't this the third identity crisis of the Dominion? If we take into account the changes the dominion underwent right at the end of the 2nd Dominion-Combine War where the Khan had to concede some of her power to the Prince-elect because the natives were becoming restless because of the war crimes comitted by the Bears and then there was the Freeminder business which was solved by dumping them onto Vega only to absorb them later they are currently undergoing a 3rd (or perhaps 4th) change. Though one could argue that the first times it happened it was somehow quickly mitigated but it feels as if the real issues were never fully solved. And the kicked of war against the Combine might be seen as a tool for "unification" as wars often have that effect it might also break the enforced unity should it turn south. And it does seem as if it just might do that.
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That was always my assumption, but I'll be damned if I can actually find something in print that confirms it! ;D
The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky lists the following worlds as the capitals for each clan:
Blood Spirit: York
Cloud Cobra: Homer
Coyote: Tamaron
Diamond Shark: Strana Mechty
Fire Mandrill: Shadow
Ghost Bear: Alshain (Arcadia is their only remaining Clan Space holding)
Goliath Scorpion: Roche
Hell's Horses: Niles
Ice Hellion: Hector
Jade Falcon: Iron Hold
Snow Raven: Lum
Star Adder: Sheridan
Steel Viper: New Kent
Wolf: Strana Mechty
I can't find any reference that specifically lists Arcadia as the former capital. It could be in a novel of some kind that explains it.
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Yeah, don't trust Sarna on Bearclaw. The citation has no mention of a capital. Bearclaw is heavily implied to be important, but Arcadia is the holding held. The move to the Inner Sphere obscured a lot of Bear history as Warden Clans post-dates it.
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With the rest of the IlClan era focusing on smaller unit battles, it would be really cool to also have a Total War situation going on between the Dominion and DC.
Especially considering that the Davions are rebuilding so wouldn't be able to punish the DC and everyone seems to believe that Clan Wolf will be occupied by the Caps.
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Part of the problem regarding the Bears old capital is that there are no sources that specifically name all of their holdings before the move to the IS
I think Bearclaw is the most likely, from what I recall they controlled it 100% before the move and the name is bear themed
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I think Bearclaw is the most likely, from what I recall they controlled it 100% before the move and the name is bear themed
They didn't control it 100%, unfortunately. The earliest indication timeline-wise for Bearclaw, in 3052, has them sharing it with the Nova Cats.
That said, Bearclaw not being 100% Bear-controlled does not preclude it from being their capital pre-Alshain/Rasalhague. New Kent has always been the Vipers' capital world and they've never held it 100%.
In my head, Bearclaw was the capital (like you, the name kinda sold me on it, plus its vague importance), and Arcadia's importance to the Bears is the fact that that's the Pentagon holding Nicholas assigned to their Clan so they held onto it until they couldn't anymore.
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Given that pretty much every comment you've ever made in the RasDom's thread, as well as the Dominions Divided discussion thread, has almost *always* plugged an anti-Bear/pro-independent Rasalhague stance of some sort (I pay attention), and given that that bias continues on further in your comment that I'm parsing right now, yes, it makes sense that you wouldn't feel engaged. ;D
I don't know what the point of this comment was, other than to be snide. Am I guilty of having an opinion?
I mean, you're literally coming into the RasDom thread and saying that the faction isn't complex or interesting or even has a right to exist. What do you even say to that?
I did not say that. I disagreed in muted terms with a personal opinion of yours; you don't represent the whole thread. That's all.
This is Battletech where there are fewer sacred cows in the writing than ever faction-wise, which is a good thing, and the RasDom doesn't have an inalienable exemption on your say so.
The RasDom working out their problems, as opposed to yet another random civil war, is literally the definition of rolling with the punches.
As for the "cuddly status quo", to say it only services Ghost Bear fans is simply ridiculous. Rasalhague as a people haven't mattered this much in the metaplot of BattleTech, like, ever.
The cuddly status quo, and the desire to keep it cuddly, is about Clan Ghost Bear keeping the prizes from their decades long winning streak; it's entirely for Ghost Bear fans. These conflicts aren't coming up for 'random' reasons, it's a wargame, there are ongoing tensions, conflict happens. That should happen.
Rasalhague presence in the metaplot is entirely reliant on the presence, support and focus on the Ghost Bears currently, as story adjuncts. It's not unthinkable that a metastory can be written wherein an alternative Rasalhague presence can matter outside of Ghost Bear orbit.
Now take that same energy and explain to the RasDom fans, in their own thread, how breaking up the faction that has been built up over decades of real time publication and a century of in-universe, to appease the minority of fans longing for a Rasalhague that never mattered as much as Rasalhague does now, isn't sad, embarrassing and a tiring waste of effort.
I don't appreciate the insinuation that this is 'your' faction thread that I've crashed by sharing my opinion, and not also 'my' faction thread, as a Rasalhague fan, talking about Rasalhague, in current year, when this has always been an open place for Rasalhague fans to discuss, as well as Ghost Bears. The implication that I don't, or shouldn't 'belong' for not talking shop as a Ghost Bear isn't appreciated.
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Maybe Arcadia was at one point the Bears capital until more of the Kerensky Cluster was colonized. After all the colonization and exploration of the Kerensky cluster took a major leap after Operation Klondike.
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They didn't control it 100%, unfortunately. The earliest indication timeline-wise for Bearclaw, in 3052, has them sharing it with the Nova Cats.
you're right, I don't know why I remember them controlling it 100%...
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I don't appreciate the insinuation that this is 'your' faction thread that I've crashed by sharing my opinion, and not also 'my' faction thread, as a Rasalhague fan, talking about Rasalhague, in current year, when this has always been an open place for Rasalhague fans to discuss, as well as Ghost Bears. The implication that I don't, or shouldn't 'belong' for not talking shop as a Ghost Bear isn't appreciated.
I'm not going to parse the rest of your comment, because it's honestly not worth it to me, but I will correct you when you're wrong, and you're wrong here. I was not insinuating anything of the sort.
Done here.
Maybe Arcadia was at one point the Bears capital until more of the Kerensky Cluster was colonized. After all the colonization and exploration of the Kerensky cluster took a major leap after Operation Klondike.
That's actually a really good idea! In fact, I'm pretty sure the Bears wouldn't even be the first Clan to do this; the Adders moved their capital to Sheridan, for example, and the Spirits moved theirs to York.
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I'm not going to parse the rest of your comment, because it's honestly not worth it to me, but I will correct you when you're wrong, and you're wrong here. I was not insinuating anything of the sort.
Done here.
Maybe you should take a step back and re-read your comments because it definitely seemed like you were insinuating that.
A Ras fan can hope for the break up of the RasDom as much as a St. Ives fan can hope for their independence.
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That's actually a really good idea! In fact, I'm pretty sure the Bears wouldn't even be the first Clan to do this; the Adders moved their capital to Sheridan, for example, and the Spirits moved theirs to York.
I think this was the case for a lot of Clans. Initially they had an HQ on Strana Mechty. After Operation Klondike, it's possible some moved if their new holdings had something that made sure a move a good idea. Others did similar as they got new colonies or if they gained total control of a world
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Maybe you should take a step back and re-read your comments because it definitely seemed like you were insinuating that.
I'll take that under advisement, thanks. ::)
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you're right, I don't know why I remember them controlling it 100%...
Because we dont count the nova cats ;)
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Because we dont count the nova cats ;)
You know, I can't recall off the top of my head... why do the Bears hate the Cats so much in the later years?
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IIRC it was for the destruction of one of the Bears' warships during the Jihad.
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You know, I can't recall off the top of my head... why do the Bears hate the Cats so much in the later years?
IIRC it was for the destruction of one of the Bears' warships during the Jihad.
The Second Combine-Dominion War and the lead-up to it as well. I don't recall specifics but I believe the Cats and Bears engaged in all-out warfare - atrocities included - rather than honorable combat. From memory the Cats were the first to behave dishonorably but the Bears gave as good as they got (much to the Rasalhagians' dismay).
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It might be even before that. Right before the Jihad the Nova Cats fleet traveled to Alshain and issued a batchall for one of the Leviathan's. They assumed the batchall would be granted as the Exiled Wolves issued one for factories earlier and their's was granted. The Bears though refused and what followed was an orbital slugging match and I think the Ghost Bear commander had to ask for surkai because it was his fault this situation escalated. Then during the Jihad the Bears had to give a fleet of Aesirs to the Cats which stripped one of their Leviathans of their close range support resulting in it's destruction (big ooof). and of course right before the 2nd Dominion-combine war the nova Cats began escalating their raids (which were from what I understand until that point usual Clan trials) and at one point killed the survivors of a Rasalhague unit which then led to the Ghost Bear strike on Kahn West (with the "help" of the Kokuryu Kai). And from there it was "Boy that escalated quickly"
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You know, I can't recall off the top of my head... why do the Bears hate the Cats so much in the later years?
Yeah nah. You are over thinking it.
Real world. Bear players didn't have any particular feelings about the Nova Cats. Maybe traitors? That is about it. Then Trial of Retribution happened and there was a collective WTF?
Over the following decades the gaps have been filled in. The Bears had three WarShips taken out by TF Serpent as collateral damage of the Nova Cat's actions. That is a good place to start with the hard feelings. As the Cats were Abjured there was no reason to show mercy in the 1st DC war. For all of Path of Glory, the Cats are again on the side of the IS power attacking a Clan.
From here on in geography takes control. Who else can the Nova Cats take their frustrations out on? It is a narrative trap. From the Bear point of view you can't hit the Nova Cats because that will bring in the DC. The Cats can't get respect because they are the vassal of the DC, so they are going to keep coming at the Bears. Any time Bears get the chance (2nd DC War) they are going to try and make the problem go away.
I don't like the situation; it is frustrating because there is no way out of it short of opening a third front, and that isn't happening at Irece Prefecture. That or genocide, which is where we ended up. The Cats were probably better off leaving wholesale for the Republic. The Clan Protectorate offers them many more narrative options.
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Almost surprised the Nova Cats didn’t leave wholesale for the Republic now that I think about it. Would made a lot of sense for them.
The Bears and the Nova Cats should never have been enemies of the at nature. I agree with Jellico there on the whole narrative standpoint.
I also believe that some of the IS clans should have been more forgiving of the Cats after the Wars of Reaving but that’s just my opinion.
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I feel like the Nova Cats, probably more than anyone, suffered the most at the numerous changes of ownership, line developers and metaplot direction. I think that frustrates me more than anything. Well, that and the fact that the Yori/Toranaga-vs-Katana/Emi/Cats conflict was, IMO, poorly executed (relegated to, what, a page in a sourcebook?) and the biggest waste of what could've been a truly interesting internal conflict in the Combine.
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Heyo fellow Rasey's!
I hope it's ok to ask this here, but are there any uniquely 'Rasalhague Dominion' vehicles?
I'm looking to get some stuff to compliment my growing Tundra Galaxy Cluster and was wondering if there was anything besides the Tyr that was home-grown.
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Not entirely RasDom but there's the Axel IIC, which is an upgrade of the Patton tank from the Lyrans. It's a signature vehicle for the military.
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Not entirely RasDom but there's the Axel IIC, which is an upgrade of the Patton tank from the Lyrans. It's a signature vehicle for the military.
Awesome! Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.
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There is also the Eldingar a hovertank which was developed after the Jihad based on a planed Rasalhagian model with the same name.
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Note, this is the ilClan period.
These are local production (from memory).
Shamash Interdictor
Odin Spotter
Skulker C
Donar
Anhur
Hetzer C
Tyr
Eldingar (all)
JES I
Demon (probably out of production)
LRM Carrier C
SRM Carrier C
Axel IIC (both)
Vidar (both)
Huitzilopochtli (AAA)
JES II
Puma (probably out of production)
Mars (HAG)
Quaestor and Giggins are recent acquisitions from the Vega Prefecture in the Dominions Divided RATs. Actually those RATs are very good as a source.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Era/FactionEraDetails?FactionId=40&EraId=257
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Note, this is the ilClan period.
These are local production (from memory).
Shamash Interdictor
Odin Spotter
Skulker C
Donar
Anhur
Hetzer C
Tyr
Eldingar (all)
JES I
Demon (probably out of production)
LRM Carrier C
SRM Carrier C
Axel IIC (both)
Vidar (both)
Huitzilopochtli (AAA)
JES II
Puma (probably out of production)
Mars (HAG)
Quaestor and Giggins are recent acquisitions from the Vega Prefecture in the Dominions Divided RATs. Actually those RATs are very good as a source.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Era/FactionEraDetails?FactionId=40&EraId=257
Thanks for the list!
I've been looking through and trying to study from the Master Unit List and cross checking with Sarna. I just wasn't sure if they were making things like the Enyo or Epona or if they were all isorla (just picked those two as an example.)
I've picked up Dominions Divided but I haven't had a chance to dig into it yet. I'm going to embarrass myself with how new I am and admit I don't know what RATs are or how to use them.
A Sarna search gave me 'Faction Assignment & Rarity Tables'?
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Yep. Go have a look on page 145.
There are four basic sources of units. Production, Purchase, Salvage, and Legacy. Clan Trials for units sit somewhere between purchase and salvage. So you will start with the units built by your faction. Then you look at what you have had access to historically. For the Clans that often means Star League vintage units. In the case of the Dominion, Pumas and Demons were being built by ComStar in the 3060s Free Rasalhague Republic rump state. Skulkers, LRM Carriers, and APCs were built by the old FRR, they basically went out of production in the 3070s but could still be found in low end forces. Now there are modern Clan versions available.
Salvage, you look at what the neighbours are using and claim some. Purchase, is a good way to get some wierd out of place stuff into your force. Usually that means looking at what Clan Sea Fox has access to, but the old MechWarrior Dark Age game left some oddities available like the Kinnol.
Probably most importantly don't stress. There is no right answer. The Dominion is actually pretty easy because it has some consistent favourites that last back to TRO3050. The FRR favourites might even come back depending on how things play out as the writers go back through TRO3055 and 3058. I know that is confusing, but it will make sense one day.
Start with the Dominions Divided RATs. Use the most common units as your skeleton. The flesh it out with whatever you like.
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Thank you very much for the breakdown, that helps tons. I'll check out that page.
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So what's your favorite scout/spotter mech that you guys like to use in your RasDom forces?
I really want to get my hands on a Phantom Prime but I'm waiting for a new mini for it.
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Mildly in order.
Kobold IIC
Donar (Recon) [I have to talk to the MUL team about that one]
Balac (Spotter)
Odin (Scout)
Rime Otter
Viper
Horned Owl 7
Karhu
Beowulf IIC
Asshur
Constable
Kobold
I think that is everything with a TAG or NARC.
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Kobold IIC
I'm so glad you pointed these lads out to me. They look like an infantry spotter's dream.
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I'm so glad you pointed these lads out to me. They look like an infantry spotter's dream.
They're pretty damn vicious in a swarm as well, the Vtol movement makes for great shenanigans if you use terrain to your advantage.
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Also, a Kobold IIC point effectively becomes impossible to hit with the optional ECM ghost targets rule in TacOps.
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Anybody else really excited for the Mastodon to be released?
I can't wait to get my hands on them. They're pretty much everything I've wanted in an Assault.
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Yeah, it really fills a hole in Dominion forces that we haven't properly had something for unless you wanted to use a Daishi or Turkina.
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IWM releasing the Mastadon? Sweet.
Is there a Kontio or Rime Otter yet? I don’t keep up with IWM.
Edit: I also have a game scheduled against the canon SaKhan of Clan Jade Falcon: three mechs vs three mechs. I’m bringing a Cave Bear (custom ‘Kodiak’ made by Marauder648), a Mastadon A, and a Kingfisher I versus his Shrike (custom), Jade Phoenix Prime, and Mad Dog IV B zellbriggen in effect. My pilots are slightly better but barring the dice gods I think it will be a close fight.
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IWM releasing the Mastadon? Sweet.
Is there a Kontio or Rime Otter yet? I don’t keep up with IWM.
Edit: I also have a game scheduled against the canon SaKhan of Clan Jade Falcon: three mechs vs three mechs. I’m bringing a Cave Bear (custom ‘Kodiak’ made by Marauder648), a Mastadon A, and a Kingfisher I versus his Shrike (custom), Jade Phoenix Prime, and Mad Dog IV B zellbriggen in effect. My pilots are slightly better but barring the dice gods I think it will be a close fight.
No, no rime otter or kontio yet. cry But I think a plastic Grizzly is coming?
Also, good luck!
Yeah, it really fills a hole in Dominion forces that we haven't properly had something for unless you wanted to use a Daishi or Turkina.
Yeah. At the risk of a Trial of Grievance... I'm just not a big fan of the Executioner. Maybe it has a steep learning curve but I'm excited to have an assault that's more forgiving.
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I’m slated for two mastodons and a Jade Phoenix for the bad guys.
Don’t need a Marauder as after this KS I’ll have about 7 in plastic.
Mastodon is a big upgrade in terms of throw weight over just about everything else we have, either local or random junk on our MUL.
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Edit: I also have a game scheduled against the canon SaKhan of Clan Jade Falcon: three mechs vs three mechs. I’m bringing a Cave Bear (custom ‘Kodiak’ made by Marauder648),
These are the same concept — Kodiaks with real Claws and TSM — but it’s easier to activate and manage the TSM on these designs:
Spirit Bear/Ghost Bear (Kodiak III/III 2) —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=79713.msg1887370#msg1887370 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=79713.msg1887370#msg1887370)
In case they help…
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These are the same concept — Kodiaks with real Claws and TSM — but it’s easier to activate and manage the TSM on these designs:
Spirit Bear/Ghost Bear (Kodiak III/III 2) —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=79713.msg1887370#msg1887370 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=79713.msg1887370#msg1887370)
In case they help…
This made me laugh. I just put up my own design of a Kodiak with TSM, real Claws and a supercharger.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=82062.msg1949405#msg1949405
I wanted to play around with Interface Cockpits on mine.
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Yeah. At the risk of a Trial of Grievance... I'm just not a big fan of the Executioner. Maybe it has a steep learning curve but I'm excited to have an assault that's more forgiving.
No Trial of Grievance over that, lots of people have issues with the Gladiator due to it expense (thanks to having MASC and Jump Jets) combined with weak side torso armor and a general lack of firepower.
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No Trial of Grievance over that, lots of people have issues with the Gladiator due to it expense (thanks to having MASC and Jump Jets) combined with weak side torso armor and a general lack of firepower.
Fewf, not just me then. The design just feels like it's being pulled in every direction at once.
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I learnt to drive Executioners back in the day before BV and it was what we were stuck with. I played a lot of DC vs GB games. You soon learned to appreciate being able to hold the range and haul yourself out of trouble. It wasn't until superchargers arrived that the Executioner was able get the mobility to be a good close quarter brawler.
As for the Mastodon a couple of hints meant that I have been expecting it for a while. OTOH I have been genuinely surprised that no one has fast tracked the Kontio. That thing has really sparked some attention.
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As for the Mastodon a couple of hints meant that I have been expecting it for a while. OTOH I have been genuinely surprised that no one has fast tracked the Kontio. That thing has really sparked some attention.
Yeah, I've also been itching to get a Kontio. It's a great combination of interesting design and flat out cool.
The stellar art doesn't hurt it either.
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Yeah, I've also been itching to get a Kontio. It's a great combination of interesting design and flat out cool.
The stellar art doesn't hurt it either.
^ This
As far as the Executioners go: the permanent JJ’s are my biggest (and really only) complaint. Obviously the BV is super inflated but sometimes it’s nice to have a big boy going ten hexes to scare the bejesus out of someone.
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If the Jumpjets weren't fixed, designers would have stopped mounting them after TRO3050. 4/6 assaults aren't that uncommon so the Executioner would have lost something of its character. Yes the MASC would have remained, but for decades that was the Executioner's most maligned feature. Not the armor or JJs. The Blood Asp is more of a response to the Executioner than the Kingfisher.
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If the Jumpjets weren't fixed, designers would have stopped mounting them after TRO3050. 4/6 assaults aren't that uncommon so the Executioner would have lost something of its character. Yes the MASC would have remained, but for decades that was the Executioner's most maligned feature. Not the armor or JJs. The Blood Asp is more of a response to the Executioner than the Kingfisher.
I get it… but it’s eight tons I could have used for other stuff. Sure the armor could t really have been fixed but still … again just my personal take on it. Still have a full Star of them cause I’m a Ghost Bear after all.
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My biggest issue with the armor is that I just wished it had taken some off the legs to boost the side torsos. The amount of armor isn't terrible- not great but it's not Hellbringer bad.
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Yeah. At the risk of a Trial of Grievance... I'm just not a big fan of the Executioner. Maybe it has a steep learning curve but I'm excited to have an assault that's more forgiving.
Dont worry about it,took me a decade and a humiliating defeat by Zeruel for me to finally get how to use em. Once you do tho they're addictive!!
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Dont worry about it,took me a decade and a humiliating defeat by Zeruel for me to finally get how to use em. Once you do tho they're addictive!!
I'm thinking about maybe taking one of the more close range variants for a spin, but the armor makes me a bit leery of it.
Also thinking about trying out the F.
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How familiar are you with driving light Mechs? Same basic principles apply. This isn’t an up the guts brawling Mech. You need to use cover and distraction to get close to your target. Then work hard to get into the rear arc because even short range configs lack the guns to stay in a peer's front arc.
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How familiar are you with driving light Mechs? Same basic principles apply. This isn’t an up the guts brawling Mech. You need to use cover and distraction to get close to your target. Then work hard to get into the rear arc because even short range configs lack the guns to stay in a peer's front arc.
Not very, I've really only been running Heavy Stars, like my last game was two Mad Cat Primes, two Mad Dog Primes and a Rifleman C 3.
I was thinking about trading out the Rifleman for something like a Fire Falcon to be something like an interceptor. A Shadow Cat managed to skirt behind the Star and was a nuisance.
I'm glad for the advice though, I'll keep it in mind when I try one out.
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The F is a beast… but what assault mech that goes 10 hexes, has three big guns (two being Large Pulses) mated to a targeting computer, isn’t a beast? The BV is thru the roof but again so are all executioners.
But as Jellico said: use it more like a lighter machine and use that engine boost to get into (or out of) good spots.
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The Executioner is definitely a finesse 'Mech, even close-range configs need to be treated as snipers...you've got to have tons of patience with this thing until you can close at the right moment (using all that speed/jump ability)
Where this 'Mech falters most is 1v1 against another (Clan) Assault that is geared to long range attacks...you can't out-snipe them, you don't out-armour them, and your ridiculous BV means they probably get a better pilot/gunner to counter your movement bonuses
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Example: Vlad in a Warhawk vs. Vandervahn in his Executioner
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Though Stackpole never truly depicted a Gladiator as having the mobility it actually does. After Vlad's fight in Malicious Intent he had Phelan use a Gladiator A to duel a Smoke Jaguar officer who somehow was in danger of out-maneuvering him with a Daishi.
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Logan Moon just kept on winning initiative.
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The Executioner is definitely a finesse 'Mech, even close-range configs need to be treated as snipers...you've got to have tons of patience with this thing until you can close at the right moment (using all that speed/jump ability)
Where this 'Mech falters most is 1v1 against another (Clan) Assault that is geared to long range attacks...you can't out-snipe them, you don't out-armour them, and your ridiculous BV means they probably get a better pilot/gunner to counter your movement bonuses
I use the F to hunt direwolves,trust me it can handle other assaults just fine ^_^. My advice would echo what others have said tho, run and gun till you soften them up then use your superior mobility to pick and choose when you want to engage.
The JJ may seem anaemic untill you need to jump
somewhere to chill off and give your masc/supercharger a chance to reset.
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I use the F to hunt direwolves,trust me it can handle other assaults just fine ^_^. My advice would echo what others have said tho, run and gun till you soften them up then use your superior mobility to pick and choose when you want to engage.
The JJ may seem anaemic untill you need to jump
somewhere to chill off and give your masc/supercharger a chance to reset.
I just meant in general, I wouldn't recommend it for someone who isn't used to using Exes to go up against another Clan Assault that is geared for range
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Let's be honest. Using Executioners to hunt nominally top Mechs like Dire Wolves, Tomahawks, or Hellstars is your end goal as an Executioner pilot. Knowing how to avoid the fire and pick your moment to strike is what it is all about. It is the Jade Phoenix that is the new challenge on the block, and I haven't worked out how to deal with that one yet. Maybe something like an Executioner A.
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My problem is I dont fight as intended. The exe F is a sniper but I use it to soften up targets before I rush up and punch them in the mouth. Most assaults the F faces off against die from headshots.
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Let's be honest. Using Executioners to hunt nominally top Mechs like Dire Wolves, Tomahawks, or Hellstars is your end goal as an Executioner pilot. Knowing how to avoid the fire and pick your moment to strike is what it is all about. It is the Jade Phoenix that is the new challenge on the block, and I haven't worked out how to deal with that one yet. Maybe something like an Executioner A.
Well I Have a Mastodon A (1/2) going up against a Jade Phoenix Prime (2/3) so I’ll let you know how that goes: but those are two COMPLETELY different play styles of mech. Almost polar opposites (as far as assault mechs go)
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Man, a Mastodon with three Large Pulse Lasers and a 1 gunner? That Jade Phoenix is going to get shredded.
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Man, a Mastodon with three Large Pulse Lasers and a 1 gunner? That Jade Phoenix is going to get shredded.
I tried to match mechs as close as possible: his customer Shrike versus my (Marauders) Cave Bear, his Jade Phoenix versus my Mastodon, and his Mad Dog IV versus a Kingfisher (not the BEST matchup). But my BV ended up being a lot lower so I have an extra point on his pilots in G/P (or both). Full Zell so while I don’t want to disclose my plans on here (because he’s also a member of this forum lol) needless to say I’ve spent a long time running with IS pilots for so crafty plays in mind.
Jade Phoenix is a beast too and I look forward to fighting one.
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Is each match up BV paired or just the overall?
Cause wow the Mastodon A seems crazy cheap then.
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Is each match up BV paired or just the overall?
Cause wow the Mastodon A seems crazy cheap then.
Overall
2/1 Cave Bear: 6094
1/2 Mastadon: 5769
2/2 Kingfisher: 4142
Vs
2/3 Shrike 4: 5976
2/3 Jade Phoenix: 5505
2/3 Max Dog IV B: 4450
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Mastodon As are cheap. Only a single 15 point weapon. 2 and 1 gunners are so far outside what I normally play as to be a totally different game. I would go as far as to not use pulse because the gunners push accuracy into the very ends of the 2D6 bell curve and don't gain you that much. Unless you plan to be fighting at long range. The Phoenix will still want to close and will only be pulling +3 movement mods.
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Let's be honest. Using Executioners to hunt nominally top Mechs like Dire Wolves, Tomahawks, or Hellstars is your end goal as an Executioner pilot. Knowing how to avoid the fire and pick your moment to strike is what it is all about. It is the Jade Phoenix that is the new challenge on the block, and I haven't worked out how to deal with that one yet. Maybe something like an Executioner A.
I haven't actually played Alpha Strike, but comparing unit cards, the Exe looks like it holds its own much better there
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I haven't actually played Alpha Strike, but comparing unit cards, the Exe looks like it holds its own much better there
It’s a lot easier to use there, between having the fixed TMM, MASC being always on, armor conversion and rounding, and doubling up JJ with other things don’t pay the premium they do in BV. It’s still expensive for a mech, but you can usually get the 50ish PV out of it.
That being said when I used the Mastodon C in AS it was also a monster.
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Totally random, but I was finally able to confirm that Bearclaw was the Bears' capital in the Kerensky Cluster before their move to the Inner Sphere (WoK, pg 65: "They also managed to capture parts of the Bear capital on Bearclaw, along with sections of the Nova Cat enclave on the same world."). I knew I wasn't crazy and had read that somewhere before, damn it.
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Totally random, but I was finally able to confirm that Bearclaw was the Bears' capital in the Kerensky Cluster before their move to the Inner Sphere (WoK, pg 65: "They also managed to capture parts of the Bear capital on Bearclaw, along with sections of the Nova Cat enclave on the same world."). I knew I wasn't crazy and had read that somewhere before, damn it.
Nice! WoK? What books that?
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Nice! WoK? What books that?
The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky.
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The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky.
Awesome!
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I knew I wasn't crazy and had read that somewhere before, damn it.
I too knew I had read it somewhere, good job finding it! *thumbs up* (there's no more thumbs up emoji)
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Just wanted to ask something. I read some parts of Dominions Divided again and there was the mention that the Combine has 3 times the population then the Rasalhague Dominion and that this could be the straw that could break the Bears back (either by incorporating this many people into the quasi democratic Dominion if their shot war nets them a lot of worlds or by simply outmanning the manpower the Dominion can throw at the front lines) For the first point: would the Dominion even allow that? I imagine if they would see the rise of parties / leaders that demand "relese to our benelovent coordinator" I would assume that they squash this immediately. Especially as the Republic has shown what happens when you have several cultures in one realm that not fully identify with said realm
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If it comes down to that we are one jump from the Dracs capital and have two super warships with jump batteries. The RasDom navy is willing to do its own thing as per DD if the Khan won’t. I think it’s MAD here on this front.
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I certainly hope that the Bears aren't stupid enough to give us a repeat performance of the Jaguars and Turtle Bay. Not only would this be a surefire way of rousing the Combine to throw everything they have at the Bears (and ruin that "the Combine has never beat the Dominion" fantasy they're so proud of in DD), but it would also deepen the Dominion's fracture lines even further once the civvies figure out that the Bears hold so little value for their lives.
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The RD has been the sick man of the Dark Age timeline. Powers that enter such states will engage in desperate actions to try to establish the illusion of stability, if they cannot find a scapegoat. Two easy to study examples of this are Austria-Hungary and the crumbling 19th-20th century Ottoman Empire. There are powers that survive such periods, but for now the RD has work to do with Khans less competent than those leading during the early invasion period.
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Just wanted to ask something. I read some parts of Dominions Divided again and there was the mention that the Combine has 3 times the population then the Rasalhague Dominion and that this could be the straw that could break the Bears back (either by incorporating this many people into the quasi democratic Dominion if their shot war nets them a lot of worlds or by simply outmanning the manpower the Dominion can throw at the front lines) For the first point: would the Dominion even allow that? I imagine if they would see the rise of parties / leaders that demand "relese to our benelovent coordinator" I would assume that they squash this immediately. Especially as the Republic has shown what happens when you have several cultures in one realm that not fully identify with said realm
Combine is three times larger but it also has three times as many enemies and one of them is FedSuns
And even with all the issues Feds have now they are still existential threat for Combine
Bears are there of course and now it seems that Raven Alliance will also be in the mix, probably not as invaders but definitely not something you can safely ignore and which will require military precautions
Also we need to keep in mind that Combine just suffered massive defeat and lost New Avalon, there will be consequences for this failure, especially for Coordinator because I doubt people like Black Dragons are pleased with this dishonor
As for incorporating Combine citizens into Dominion it's very unlikely that they will just be given any voting rights for the foreseeable future. For Rasalhague Dominion this is the war of righteous conquest not one of liberation and in the eyes of both Bears and Rasalhague these people first need to redeem themselves for the crime of being Kuritans before they are given anything that any real citizens of Dominion have the right to
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The defeat on New Avalon will be credited to the warlord. The Black Dragon Society is currently a non-entity in Combine affairs. The Dragoons will likely also take some of the blame.
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Yes, but the Combine still has to contend with the renewed effort the FedSuns has been making to retake worlds that the Combine captured.
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I believe the two are at peace for now. The AFFS are simply too exhausted and broken down to do much more.
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Yes, but the Combine still has to contend with the renewed effort the FedSuns has been making to retake worlds that the Combine captured.
The Combine has the Federated Suns and the Dominion has the rampant Horses, plus whatever the Lyrans are going to attempt closer to Terra, plus the new Red Duke who seems to be a big deal. OTOH the Suns have the Raven Alliance and internal issues to deal with while the Horses ambitions seem to be in the other direction. The point being, for once the table seems to be cleared for the Dominion and Combine to focus on each other
If it comes down to that we are one jump from the Dracs capital and have two super warships with jump batteries. The RasDom navy is willing to do its own thing as per DD if the Khan won’t. I think it’s MAD here on this front.
The Jihad made it very clear that the Combine can function without Luthien. This is the fundamental problem fighting a Successor State. They have so much depth you just keep pushing and pushing into nothing. In contrast the Dominion can free up maybe 10 Clusters for offensive operations while maintaining a practical defensive force in the Dominion. Even if the DCMS remains defensive, Combine credit is good and every two bit merc will be signing on to raid the Dominion.
In contrast you take down Alshain and you gut the Dominion. Hit Rasalhague as well and that is half of the industry warfighting capacity gone. The Dominion is a lot more vulnerable than the Combine. With the Fed Suns in its current state the Combine can afford to take the losses and attrition out a victory that cripples the Dominion for a century. That is what three times the mass and population gets you.
The three times the population is irrelevant as far as democracy is concerned. The Dominion isn't absorbing the Combine. What is relevant is about a third of the Dominion is of some kind of Combine heritage and they have just made it clear they aren't happy that the other two thirds receives most of the attention. Do you really want to be taking on more Combine worlds at this point? They might not be voting immediately but in 20 years they will be. You think they will suddenly lose their culture? In a nation where resisting to protect your culture for 800 years is venerated? The Dominion has to decide what it wants to be.
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So if the Bears take any planets they are expanding the Rasalhague influence to Combine worlds and that might not go over well with the populations. Same would apply in reverse especially since the Rasalhagians have a history of that.
On paper the RD Fleet is better equipped than the DCA. The same could be argued with their armies. Both have been weakened by conflict, reserves might be a bit shallow (more so in the Combine), and their fanaticism will drive them to extremes.
It will be the Nova Cat war all over again.
The only question that remains is: will the IlClan help? Now the Ravens have already shown adventurism into DC space, but who knows what the Wolves want. If the IlKhan approves we could see better support from all associated parties. OTOH if the IlKhan doesn’t care, who knows. At that point the AFFS could throw in their lot to help attack simply for revenge. They might be at peace but they could easily break that.
I think it will be a purely Dominion affair (Raven attacks non withstanding) and it (hopefully) won’t escalate to a full on war. I hope we don’t go to Luthien (even if it is a jump or two away) because that would poke the Dragon real hard.
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Honestly, I hope the Bears do hit Luthien... and I hope the Combine finally delivers them a long-overdue humbling for their trouble. And I say this as a fan. Plus it seems to me like this was what DD was telegraphing to the reader with all of that obnoxious and heavyhanded "the Bears have never lost a war with the Combine" nonsense they made a point to say several times in the book: that Miraborg's "short victorious war" is going to be anything BUT.
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Honestly, I hope the Bears do hit Luthien... and I hope the Combine finally delivers them a long-overdue humbling for their trouble. And I say this as a fan. Plus it seems to me like this was what DD was telegraphing to the reader with all of that obnoxious and heavyhanded "the Bears have never lost a war with the Combine" nonsense they made a point to say several times in the book: that Miraborg's "short victorious war" is going to be anything BUT.
That does appear to be the obvious outcome, yes.
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Taking Luthien is easy. It is what you do with it that is the problem. Over the last decade we have seen Luthien fall and New Avalon go twice and TPTB seem to favour extended insurgencies. Why would this be any different?
My issue with it is that it ties down too many troops. You could easily trap a Galaxy there or more. Remember you only have 10ish Clusters. The big war suddenly looks very small. Not great from a story PoV.
On paper the RD Fleet is better equipped than the DCA.
Navies are as big as they need to be. The DCA potentially has a lot of large capable assault DropShips if the storyline calls for it. Frankly what was deployed at New Avalon was as bad as Hour of the Wolf.
One Leviathan will almost always have to be at Alshain given the vulnerability of the world to a smash and run attack. the Leviathans are powerful cards but have limitations.
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I got the impression one of the objectives of the iClan era was a resurgence of elements of the Third Succession War. Primarily where raids are common and on some planets (definitely NOT counting Luthien) you can hold or invade it with a battalion of troops. It stands to reason an invasion of Luthien where clusters and regiments are gutted can make a lot of sense.
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The Combine has the Federated Suns and the Dominion has the rampant Horses, plus whatever the Lyrans are going to attempt closer to Terra,
I don't think the Bears have to worry about the Lyrans doing anything to mess up there plans.
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I got the impression one of the objectives of the iClan era was a resurgence of elements of the Third Succession War. Primarily where raids are common and on some planets (definitely NOT counting Luthien) you can hold or invade it with a battalion of troops. It stands to reason an invasion of Luthien where clusters and regiments are gutted can make a lot of sense.
Not to mention the Ghost Bears already lost a third of their forces thanks to Alaric's wounded pride. Now they have a mix of hardend forces and green recruits. If the war goes south (which was basically telegraphed it will) they will loose even more probably leaving them wide open for the Horses to stampede through (and as I said before New Oslo is basically right next to Rasalhague). And from another point: Yori has something to prove: she was at the helm when they destroyed the Nova Cats. Under her rule they swalloed many Republic worlds (started under Vincent Kurita). And while it was under her rule they lost a good portion of their FS conquests those losses are already shifted onto Toranaga. Now she needs something to distract her people with: the "cowardish Bears who always attack us when we are distracted" If she can rouse her people into the Combine fanaticism which basically dictates that surrender is not an option every world the Bears might take will swamp them in blood. And if the Second Dominion-Combine war is any hint the Rasalhagians don't like it when war crimes are comitted by their own nation. a very unlikely scenario: the dominion which was glued by a recent civil war breaks apart for good
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Not to mention the Ghost Bears already lost a third of their forces thanks to Alaric's wounded pride. Now they have a mix of hardend forces and green recruits. If the war goes south (which was basically telegraphed it will) they will loose even more probably leaving them wide open for the Horses to stampede through (and as I said before New Oslo is basically right next to Rasalhague). And from another point: Yori has something to prove: she was at the helm when they destroyed the Nova Cats. Under her rule they swalloed many Republic worlds (started under Vincent Kurita). And while it was under her rule they lost a good portion of their FS conquests those losses are already shifted onto Toranaga. Now she needs something to distract her people with: the "cowardish Bears who always attack us when we are distracted" If she can rouse her people into the Combine fanaticism which basically dictates that surrender is not an option every world the Bears might take will swamp them in blood. And if the Second Dominion-Combine war is any hint the Rasalhagians don't like it when war crimes are comitted by their own nation. a very unlikely scenario: the dominion which was glued by a recent civil war breaks apart for good
The invasion so far was basically just Taiga Galaxy. Specifically 3rd and 4th Freeman. During the Bears internal kerfuffle, those units didnt exactly impress anyone. The 4th in particular was called out as incompetently led. So Bears aren’t throwing elite troops towards Luthien. They are throwing loyal to Joiner ideals.
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Not to mention the Ghost Bears already lost a third of their forces thanks to Alaric's wounded pride. Now they have a mix of hardend forces and green recruits. If the war goes south (which was basically telegraphed it will) they will loose even more probably leaving them wide open for the Horses to stampede through (and as I said before New Oslo is basically right next to Rasalhague). And from another point: Yori has something to prove: she was at the helm when they destroyed the Nova Cats. Under her rule they swalloed many Republic worlds (started under Vincent Kurita). And while it was under her rule they lost a good portion of their FS conquests those losses are already shifted onto Toranaga. Now she needs something to distract her people with: the "cowardish Bears who always attack us when we are distracted" If she can rouse her people into the Combine fanaticism which basically dictates that surrender is not an option every world the Bears might take will swamp them in blood. And if the Second Dominion-Combine war is any hint the Rasalhagians don't like it when war crimes are comitted by their own nation. a very unlikely scenario: the dominion which was glued by a recent civil war breaks apart for good
Dominion wants Combine planets, not people, they barely even tolerate existing Kuritans in their territory
Rasalhague Dominion turning Combine planets into swamp of blood will probably be preferable outcome for RasDom, if Yori want to play that game RasDom will happily be playing
Second Dominion-Combine war was long ago, those who complained are either retired or dead and current war is just as much Rasalhahue project as it is the Bear one (it wasn't Ghost Bear who came up with it)
Civil War in Dominion was not between Bears and Rasalhague and Rasalhague locals will not have issues with warcriming the Kuritans in ensuing war against Combine, in fact they will be gladly pulling their weight and asking for seconds
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I wonder if there is any actual canon to support these wild headcanon claims that the Rasalhagians are suddenly A-OK with bathing the Combine in blood out of absolutely nowhere despite having a historical aversion to that sort of thing. I doubt that there is, but it certainly wouldn't be the first example of out-of-character inconsistency we've seen lately.
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Rasalhagians being A-OK with bathing the Combine in blood may be headcanon for now
What is canon is Rasalhagians being A-OK with bathing other Rasalhagians in blood just the other month in-universe
It would be logical to assume that they will not be going any easier on Kuritans than they did on themselves
To say nothing of the fact that going easy on Kuritans always backfired horribly for numerous easygoers across history (example: Feds)
This of course all depends primarily on internal situation in the Combine and how hard Yori is willing to push her luck after New Avalon which the Warlord lost in the name of Coordinator
Long bloody insurgency against RasDom advertises weakness to their neighbors and quick resolution even with losing some planets combined with good PR for the sheeple is preferable to being stuck between angry RasDom, angry Feds, opportunistic Ravens and depending on IKEO angry Wolves & Co
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Rasalhagians being A-OK with bathing the Combine in blood may be headcanon for now
Thanks, that's all I needed to confirm.
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Honestly, I hope the Bears do hit Luthien... and I hope the Combine finally delivers them a long-overdue humbling for their trouble. And I say this as a fan. Plus it seems to me like this was what DD was telegraphing to the reader with all of that obnoxious and heavyhanded "the Bears have never lost a war with the Combine" nonsense they made a point to say several times in the book: that Miraborg's "short victorious war" is going to be anything BUT.
This is not going to be short war, unless the Bears stop quick. Then it is just raiding.
Go ahead take Luthien, got a plan to deal with the locals afterwards? How many troops are you willing to tie up to make that "peaceful", because it will have insurgencies issues. At some point the RD troops will have to leave the armored cocoon and be where squishy things die easy.
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Rasalhagians being A-OK with bathing the Combine in blood may be headcanon for now
The Rasalhagians were not ok with the Bears slaughtering civilians during the Combine Dominion war just 50 years prior. In fact it led to a svere break in the system of the Dominion with the elected Prince gaining more sway. So what would it make ok for them now? Especially when it's the Dominion who initiated the war this time?
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The invasion so far was basically just Taiga Galaxy. Specifically 3rd and 4th Freeman. During the Bears internal kerfuffle, those units didnt exactly impress anyone. The 4th in particular was called out as incompetently led. So Bears aren’t throwing elite troops towards Luthien. They are throwing loyal to Joiner ideals.
The 3rd and 4th were on the border and reasonably intact. Their primary qualification was they were there. There is minimal planning going on.
Who else could go? Alpha is gutted. Beta is securing the peace. Rho is guarding Vega, and Rasalhague has the Horse border.
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I'd send the first princes champion,he helped get us in this mess he gets to go fight it.
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If the war goes south (which was basically telegraphed it will) they will loose even more probably leaving them wide open for the Horses to stampede through (and as I said before New Oslo is basically right next to Rasalhague).
One item of note is that Tamar Rising (or Dominion Divided) makes a mention of the Ghost Bear Watch maybe supplying the Tamar Pact with military supplies in order to distract the Hells Horses. The is also the fact that the Hells Horses are probably hurting (psychologically) after failing to capture Sudeten in operation Stampede and with all the rogue empires running around they may not want to “unite” the Dominion who even weakened may pound the Hells Horses into the Periphery.
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I don't believe that Tamar Rising ever said that, it just said that the Dominion had arrived in the Pact. Though it seems to be a reasonable assumption that they'd want to prop up the Pact.
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I don't see the Horses antagonizing the Bears right now anyway, even with Fulk Lassanerra running the show now. I think they're going to be focused on the Hinterlands for a while... if they play it smart, anyway. They really don't need any extra attention drawn to them right now, because they're in even worse shape these days than the Bears.
One thing that does annoy me: the loss of the Bear-Horse relationship that Jake Kabrinski was building between the two Clans. I feel like the Horses would've made for interesting allies of the Deniers, enemy of my enemy and all that, and might've even made a difference in how things shook out during DD.
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I don't see the Horses antagonizing the Bears right now anyway, even with Fulk Lassanerra running the show now. I think they're going to be focused on the Hinterlands for a while... if they play it smart, anyway. They really don't need any extra attention drawn to them right now, because they're in even worse shape these days than the Bears.
One thing that does annoy me: the loss of the Bear-Horse relationship that Jake Kabrinski was building between the two Clans. I feel like the Horses would've made for interesting allies of the Deniers, enemy of my enemy and all that, and might've even made a difference in how things shook out during DD.
I don't believe that Tamar Rising ever said that, it just said that the Dominion had arrived in the Pact. Though it seems to be a reasonable assumption that they'd want to prop up the Pact.
It must have been in Dominion Divided but it does make sense since the Lyrans and Ghost Bears have had a more positive relationship (compared to the Combine). I can’t wait for a 10 or 25 year update to see how many Ghost Bear mechs and tanks are interspersed with the Tamar Pact.
I don't see the Horses antagonizing the Bears right now anyway, even with Fulk Lassanerra running the show now. I think they're going to be focused on the Hinterlands for a while... if they play it smart, anyway. They really don't need any extra attention drawn to them right now, because they're in even worse shape these days than the Bears.
One thing that does annoy me: the loss of the Bear-Horse relationship that Jake Kabrinski was building between the two Clans. I feel like the Horses would've made for interesting allies of the Deniers, enemy of my enemy and all that, and might've even made a difference in how things shook out during DD.
Personally the long term Bear- Horse relationship would only make them frenemies at best. Now with Alaric refusing to acknowledge the Ghost Bears announcement to join I can see a closer alliance.
One realization after mulling over Alarics announcement I feel he rejected the Ghost Bears not because how close the voting was but because how far (in his view) the Ghost Bears fell. Despite being more freeborn than trueborn (in both nature and nurture) Alaric has a high opinion of Clan and only Clans. Maybe it’s just me but he uses freeborns in his touman but among his council he only surrounds himself with trueborns. (If I’m wrong please correct me).
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It must have been in Dominion Divided but it does make sense since the Lyrans and Ghost Bears have had a more positive relationship (compared to the Combine).
Nothing helps relationships like having someone you don't share a border with but whom shares a border with a common enemy.
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Dominion Divided had a short battle report that the Bears encountered a Tamar Pact unit during one of their raids and that they might be recpetive of friendly overtures as the Tamar Pact was closely aligned with the old Republic. They also learned that the Pact now owns Pandora.
I can see the Horses try something against the Dominion simply to keep their forces in shape. Unlike the Bears the Horses still have a full touman with experience which might be handy for winning trials of possesion (as long as they don't go overboard). Yes the failure at Sudeten hurt their pride but who knows what Lassenara might try next. Heck if Alaric scolds the Bears again we might get a revival of the Horse and Bear alliance. After all some in the Dominion viewed the Horses as being correct after Alaric had denied their first join request.
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I don't believe that Tamar Rising ever said that, it just said that the Dominion had arrived in the Pact. Though it seems to be a reasonable assumption that they'd want to prop up the Pact.
Propping up the Tamar Pact is a smart play because it keeps the Lyrans off the border (one successor state is enough) and the Horses off Pandora (God help everyone if they add Pandora and Sudeten to the Wolf OZ assets). I am not sure smart plays are an option at the moment.
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Let's be real, what's going to happen between the Bears and Combine is whatever TPTB want, numbers mean nothing, if we're meant to lose we will, if the Combine is, it will. One of the things the Beamers have brought up is the amount of Clusters that need keeping track of and wanting to reduce them, that might give hints as to whats going to happen to us, and possibly the Wolves too since they're somewhat swollen in size with freebirth and WiE units.
TPTB know how we fans can react to plot armour and I suspect a lot of the Wolves newer units exist so that they can take a beating in making the nth League a thing, while keeping both sides happier than Wolves auto win because Wolves.
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I thought the direction for the Bears was this: Alaric slaps them in the face, they have an identity crisis, loose units in infighting, now wanting to attack the Combine. But apparently the joiners have won and the Dominion is joining the new Star League ? (As like it or not, he does need the Bears)
Also, what does TPTB mean ? :lipsrsealed:
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I thought the direction for the Bears was this: Alaric slaps them in the face, they have an identity crisis, loose units in infighting, now wanting to attack the Combine. But apparently the joiners have won and the Dominion is joining the new Star League ? (As like it or not, he does need the Bears)
Also, what does TPTB mean ? :lipsrsealed:
TPTB = The Powers That Be, shorthand for the people who actually control BattleTech. If I’m not mistaken their responsibilities include deciding what new products to create and how various story arcs will unfold, to give just two examples.
That does sound like where the Dominion is headed. Personally, I hope they do emerge triumphant over the Combine. Not by annexing huge swathes of territory and hostile new subjects, but rather by delivering a coup de grace to the already-weakened DCMS so all will know the Bear and Sea Serpent are stronger than the Dragon :evil:
Or for a smaller victory Luthien doesn’t need to be held, just sacked and the bear flag raised above the Imperial Palace.
Hey, a Rasalhague fan can dream azn
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I think that there is a grave misunderstanding amongst the Clan fanbase. The Combine is not weakened, the Coordinator intentionally set Toranaga up to fail. This has been a major frustration for the Federated Suns fanbase in other threads. The Combine is unequivocally the strongest power in their region. It is true that the Suns launched a highly successful offensive, but that was due to intrigue, not a lack of capability and the Suns are in tatters. The Capellan Confederation and the Draconis Combine are the superpowers of Dark Age. The Combine is still quite a bit weaker than the Confederation.
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I think that there is a grave misunderstanding amongst the Clan fanbase. The Combine is not weakened, the Coordinator intentionally set Toranaga up to fail. This has been a major frustration for the Federated Suns fanbase in other threads. The Combine is unequivocally the strongest power in their region. It is true that the Suns launched a highly successful offensive, but that was due to intrigue, not a lack of capability and the Suns are in tatters. The Capellan Confederation and the Draconis Combine are the superpowers of Dark Age. The Combine is still quite a bit weaker than the Confederation.
The Combine was weakened, the dissolving of Units shows it, but it's covering it's weakness correctly, it's using the people from those units to train and sure up the Ashigaru Regiments and other more mainline forces with fiercely loyal and veteran Soldiers.
What I could see Yori doing is a Theodore and creating a buffer so she can deal with the Bears, say give former Suns worlds they still hold to the Ravens and the 3rd/4th/69th League, not only would it give worlds to the League but it will also create internal tensions in three and a bit states, Combine with "Those worlds are ours, we shouldn't have gave them up", Suns with "Those Worlds are ours, we should take them back, but the Wolves and Ravens", Ravens with "Cool these are ours, oh the Combine and Suns want them", Alaric/Wolves with "Woo semi legitimacy... between two states that would happily grab them if they even smell weakness".
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I thought the direction for the Bears was this: Alaric slaps them in the face, they have an identity crisis, loose units in infighting, now wanting to attack the Combine. But apparently the joiners have won and the Dominion is joining the new Star League ? (As like it or not, he does need the Bears)
Dominion, for the immediate future, is not joining the Alaric’s team of super friends. Alaric wants the Ghost Bears, not the Rasalhague Dominion. There’s no way for RasDom to approach Alaric as a clan that doesn’t involve another civil war. It doesn’t matter if RasDom goes and defeats DCMS on Luthien and sacks the Dragon.
The way the RasDom operates, it would be another vote. Even if it goes hard towards Alaric, like 70/30 for, it doesn’t change the fact that Alaric’s issue was that there was a vote. A “clan” wouldn’t have a vote where civilians have a say in his eyes. To him, the warriors in charge should say that they will join Alaric and that’s the end of it.
So RasDom seems likely now to be at best, not an enemy of Alaric.
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Dominion, for the immediate future, is not joining the Alaric’s team of super friends. Alaric wants the Ghost Bears, not the Rasalhague Dominion. There’s no way for RasDom to approach Alaric as a clan that doesn’t involve another civil war. It doesn’t matter if RasDom goes and defeats DCMS on Luthien and sacks the Dragon.
The way the RasDom operates, it would be another vote. Even if it goes hard towards Alaric, like 70/30 for, it doesn’t change the fact that Alaric’s issue was that there was a vote. A “clan” wouldn’t have a vote where civilians have a say in his eyes. To him, the warriors in charge should say that they will join Alaric and that’s the end of it.
Where are you getting that this is Alaric's position and mindset? Because Dominions Divided certainly didn't say any of this. Alaric's issue with the RasDom plebiscite wasn't that they had one to begin with, it's that they didn't vote strongly enough in his favor. If there's something canonical out there that I've missed, though, by all means please let me know (not being sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely curious if I've missed something).
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Where are you getting that this is Alaric's position and mindset? Because Dominions Divided certainly didn't say any of this. Alaric's issue with the RasDom plebiscite wasn't that they had one to begin with, it's that they didn't vote strongly enough in his favor. If there's something canonical out there that I've missed, though, by all means please let me know (not being sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely curious if I've missed something).
Alright. Dug up what I thought I remembered.
“IlKhan Ward rejected our vote out of hand.”
“That is what it says. But he cannot just tell us to hold the vote again until it is unanimous.”
“He said we are not dedicated enough to the new Star League.” Rand paused for a moment, taking a breath to contain her rage. “For the Ghost Bears, it was all or nothing, and he does not understand the rede of our Clan. If we cannot agree unanimously, there will be war with the Star League.”
From A Question of Survival
Not quite what I remembered. Calling me out for sources is good. “Must be unanimous” doesn’t strike me as Alaric respecting that there was a vote. It’s such a bafflingly insane expectation that the only thing I could take from it was that he really wanted a clan. Not an inner sphere power with middling support for him.
So I was conflating some of my conclusions with the original source material.
EDIT: the person being quoted was immediately corrected in the book that not joining doesn’t inherently mean war. They were being dramatic.
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TPTB = The Powers That Be, shorthand for the people who actually control BattleTech. If I’m not mistaken their responsibilities include deciding what new products to create and how various story arcs will unfold, to give just two examples.
That does sound like where the Dominion is headed. Personally, I hope they do emerge triumphant over the Combine. Not by annexing huge swathes of territory and hostile new subjects, but rather by delivering a coup de grace to the already-weakened DCMS so all will know the Bear and Sea Serpent are stronger than the Dragon :evil:
Or for a smaller victory Luthien doesn’t need to be held, just sacked and the bear flag raised above the Imperial Palace.
Hey, a Rasalhague fan can dream azn
Now I need a picture of a Kodiak in front of the Imperial Palace carving his claws into the walls as Elementals raise a flag while the palace burns around them…. And in another chapter a second picture of the same place with Kuritan mechs and police patrolling, someone in the background cleaning a wall that has graffiti of something like ‘Nova Cats send their regards’ (ironically of course)
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Alright. Dug up what I thought I remembered.
From A Question of Survival
Not quite what I remembered. Calling me out for sources is good. “Must be unanimous” doesn’t strike me as Alaric respecting that there was a vote. It’s such a bafflingly insane expectation that the only thing I could take from it was that he really wanted a clan. Not an inner sphere power with middling support for him.
So I was conflating some of my conclusions with the original source material.
EDIT: the person being quoted was immediately corrected in the book that not joining doesn’t inherently mean war. They were being dramatic.
No, this is good stuff, Church, because I actually haven't read A Question of Survival yet, and I knew there was stuff in there regarding this subject.
FWIW (and I say this because Alaric could've been lying), there was this bit in DD on page 29: "Brimming with a confidence verging on hubris, ilKhan Ward accepted the Dominion Khans' need to work with their 'lower castes'. The ilClan would not try to impose Clan Wolf's interpretation of the Way of the Clans onto the Dominion, citing the wisdom of any Clan that could produce a man as gifted as Ramiel Bekker."
That said, I can't help but wonder if Alaric's rejection of the plebiscite results might've been a calculated move on his part specifically to sow unrest between the Bears and the Rasalhagians, to basically force the Bears' hand.
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At best, I took it as Alaric wanted the Bears and not RasDom. He assumed the clan side of RasDom would be drawn strongly to the ilClan and assert its superiority over the inner sphere side. I’m guessing the RasDom civil war, 30% touman fatalities (per DD, damn), and a RasDom still not excited to join him was not a planned outcome.
The “he wanted to weaken his enemies with a sentence” feels like entirely too much credit.
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I dug up Dominion Divided and on page 45 it says "The missive delivered by the Sea Fox delegation explained that the Ilkhan was dissastisfied with the result of the vote. It was too close. "If the Dominion wishes to join the Star League, then the Dominion must make manifest it's clear and unambiguous desire to do so". That statement, couched in the vagaries of diplomatic folderol that sourrounded i, was the core of the Ilkhan's objection. He did not invite an infinitestimal fraction of a majority to join the Star League. He had invited the nation. The nation, he declared, would join, but he would not invite dissent into his Star League at his founding" (sporry for the long quote). So this reads as if Alaric was not amused with the slim margin and the Bear Khans took it as "we need a new vote with a bigger majority". Sounds like Alaric is obsessed with unity. Where have I heard that before?
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Sounds like Alaric is obsessed with unity.
I mean, this is a pretty obvious mindset for any Clanner (or anyone else for that matter) who's taken Terra and is now looking to recreate the Star League.
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Yeah but this unity almost seems like as if the other Clans have to submit themselves to the Wolves completly. That can't end well.
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Of course it can't. That's the point. It never ends well. It didn't for Amaris, it didn't for Nicholas Kerensky, it didn't for Brett Andrews, and it won't for Alaric.
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I thought the direction for the Bears was this: Alaric slaps them in the face, they have an identity crisis, loose units in infighting, now wanting to attack the Combine. But apparently the joiners have won and the Dominion is joining the new Star League ? (As like it or not, he does need the Bears)
Also, what does TPTB mean ? :lipsrsealed:
I swear no one does subtlety or reads between lines any more. A large number of readers seem to think the Joiners have won for now and ever more.
As noted from before DD, we are in book one. There is a long way to go yet.
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I swear no one does subtlety or reads between lines any more.
But it seems people are still pointlessly condescending to each other when making their points on here.
Never change, CBT forums. :laugh:
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But it seems people are still pointlessly condescending to each other when making their points on here.
Never change, CBT forums. :laugh:
Things have improved immensely from decades ago. There were some brutal threads and arguments that are best forgotten, save to prevent them from ever happening again.
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I dug up Dominion Divided and on page 45 it says "The missive delivered by the Sea Fox delegation explained that the Ilkhan was dissastisfied with the result of the vote. It was too close. "If the Dominion wishes to join the Star League, then the Dominion must make manifest it's clear and unambiguous desire to do so". That statement, couched in the vagaries of diplomatic folderol that sourrounded i, was the core of the Ilkhan's objection. He did not invite an infinitestimal fraction of a majority to join the Star League. He had invited the nation. The nation, he declared, would join, but he would not invite dissent into his Star League at his founding" (sporry for the long quote). So this reads as if Alaric was not amused with the slim margin and the Bear Khans took it as "we need a new vote with a bigger majority". Sounds like Alaric is obsessed with unity. Where have I heard that before?
It's hard to parse what "clear and unambiguous desire" and "not invite dissent" mean. My take coming from Question of Survival was it wasn't necessarily the closeness of the vote, but that it was more the fact that there was a vote of at all. Alaric will only accept the Bear when those warriors that did wish not to join, be defeated on combat and honor bound to respect the will of the victors. With the lower castes following the Warriors as is the clan way. Alaric needs the decision to join, to be made in traditional Clan way. None of this was stated directly, but was implied by Alaric's questioning of the Bear Khan about how they were subordinated to an IS power, and of course is tentative depending on what happens next.
Reading the Tea Leaves Miraborgs murder of Magnusson on the floor of parliament, to me was the sign that the might makes right way of the Clans was returning, and might encourage additional joiners to fully resolve the issues to Alarics expectations, by the use of force. A disastrous war against the combine is sure to only make matters worse.
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But it seems people are still pointlessly condescending to each other when making their points on here.
Never change, CBT forums. :laugh:
:D
I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realise how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.
Honestly I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognising how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake. Assuming a 50/50 Clan/Rasalhague split and having a black hat white hat war would have been simpler, even if it ignored prior sources. Except that has its own set of problems.
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It's hard to parse what "clear and unambiguous desire" and "not invite dissent" mean.
I don't think those are hard to parse at all: Alaric wants the RasDom to submit to the ilClan completely, and not join his Star League without being "all in".
My take coming from Question of Survival was it wasn't necessarily the closeness of the vote, but that it was more the fact that there was a vote of at all.
If this is the case, and I'm not saying it isn't, then why wouldn't he have simply told the Bear Khans that in the first place when they met on Terra?
Miraborgs murder of Magnusson on the floor of parliament
That wasn't a murder and shouldn't be characterized as such.
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I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realise how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.
You know what? That's absolutely fair, Jellico. I'm even guilty of it myself: my initial reaction to the RasDom section of DD was pretty much revulsion (mostly because none of this stuff was foreshadowed in any appreciable way), but after a few re-reads, it's starting to click into place. The worldbuilding for the RasDom in this book really was terrific.
Honestly I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognising how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake.
It absolutely was not a mistake. It's those sorts of complexities that make the RasDom feel more realistic and like an actual hybrid state instead of some cheesy fanfic faction that lacks flaws to speak of (looking at you, Scorpion Empire, sorry not sorry). And to be perfectly honest, had the RasDom had this sort of fleshing out beforehand, maybe the events of DD wouldn't have been such a shock to so much of the fanbase.
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Thanks. I very much appreciate that.
Ironically a lot of that lore was developed in previous versions of this thread over the last fifteen years. I went in with a mental list of what the Dominion was in 3150, and while if course there were compromises, a lot got through. You can see snippets of that Dominion in TROs and FMs but they were never really the right forum or had carte blache for full on world building. The plot of DD is a different issue, and I argue that goes back to the failure to launch of the Dominion storyline in MW: DA which meant that we were not plugged in to any of the Dark Age storylines so got put on ice for a decade. Check out how careful the RD, RA, and half the SF entries in FM3145 are not to break anything.
Swinging that back to the Draconis Combine, we are in a weird situation now. Both the DC and RD largely sat out the back half of the Dark Age plots so both factions are now on their own with no real attachment to the main plot. It makes it really hard to predict the future. I have some ideas, but there isn't enough data yet.
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That wasn't a murder and shouldn't be characterized as such.
Fine... Trial of Grievance with intent to kill. Dominions Divided explicitly states it was a politically motivate killing, against a man liked enough that Miragborg comforted him after the killing blow. I have read a lot of Clan Trials of Grievance over the years, and this is the first one that felt like cold blooded murder. We've also seen Clan legal trials in the past, and while they have an element of ritual combat, that isn't the justice that Magnusson received.
Edit: Cleaned up.
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Phelan's "circle of equals" with Conal Ward was pretty dubious, if you want to count it like anything remotely legitimate.
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What's so dubious about shooting someone in the head and retroactively declaring it a trial?
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:D
I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realize how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.
Honestly, I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognizing how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake. Assuming a 50/50 Clan/Rasalhague split and having a black hat white hat war would have been simpler, even if it ignored prior sources. Except that has its own set of problems.
I apologize, I will back out of this discussion for now.
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Phelan's "circle of equals" with Conal Ward was pretty dubious, if you want to count it like anything remotely legitimate.
Though not a Trial of Grievance, I'd say Brett Andrews' killing of Angus Labov was pretty bad, too.
Fine... Trial of Grievance with intent to kill. Dominions Divided explicitly states it was a politically motivate killing, with Miragborg comforting the man he killed. I have read a lot of Clan Trials of Grievance over the years, and this is the first one that felt like cold blooded murder. We've seen Clan legal trials in the past, and while they have an element of ritual combat, that isn't the justice that Magnusson received.
That's fair, actually.
I hated that Lars got killed off. He was the first legitimate RasDom character we ever saw "on-screen", he looked badass and awesome, and he never even really got to do anything until DD. But it was also a truly shocking moment that actually had value in the narrative, so I suppose that's something.
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I apologize, I will back out of this discussion for now.
There is nothing to apologise about. You are interested. That is the main thing. Ask the questions, have the discussion. That is the fun part and why I am here at least. Some formats don't suit long form answers. That is frustrating. Many the YouTuber I have fumed at, but I am not going to start a war in the comments a) not a great format, b) I wouldn't do that to someone in their own "house".
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Though not a Trial of Grievance, I'd say Brett Andrews' killing of Angus Labov was pretty bad, too.
Wanted to say that one was pretty questionable
"I declare a Reaving against Angus Labov!"
"I accept"
*Throws knife in throat* "there done"
And of course we have the trial of refusal against Stanislov N'Buta and that time was the breaking point though only on a technicality. Andrews used a pistol he shouldn't have had in the meeting.
If you combine cut throat policies with this "might makes right" mentality I expect more "heated" debates in future. And each parliamentary session ends with at least one dead MP
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Though not a Trial of Grievance, I'd say Brett Andrews' killing of Angus Labov was pretty bad, too.
That's fair, actually.
I hated that Lars got killed off. He was the first legitimate RasDom character we ever saw "on-screen", he looked badass and awesome, and he never even really got to do anything until DD. But it was also a truly shocking moment that actually had value in the narrative, so I suppose that's something.
Lars was great and he got done dirty. I really hope there is a story in the works that expands on that whole plot thread.
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If this is the case, and I'm not saying it isn't, then why wouldn't he have simply told the Bear Khans that in the first place when they met on Terra?
In reading that is how the exchange went down. It wasn't stated in black and white. But then again most of the ilClan fiction has been a lot less explicate about referencing events that happen on the future product roadmap that we are used too.
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Now I need a picture of a Kodiak in front of the Imperial Palace carving his claws into the walls as Elementals raise a flag while the palace burns around them…. And in another chapter a second picture of the same place with Kuritan mechs and police patrolling, someone in the background cleaning a wall that has graffiti of something like ‘Nova Cats send their regards’ (ironically of course)
That will look good :evil:
Hmmm, after the Bears make an example of the Combine on Lithuen, get more annoyed with Alaric, alliance with the Horses, aim at Terra, Alaric gets bulk of Raven fleet to defend him ?
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If this is the case, and I'm not saying it isn't, then why wouldn't he have simply told the Bear Khans that in the first place when they met on Terra?
I’d have to quote several pages of AQoS for context, but the gist of the scene is:
Bear Khan: “We can aid the ilClan in an emergency, but joining you is too much without a vote of our people.”
Alaric: “aren’t you the khans? Just command it.”
Bear Khan: explains patiently that they think uniting with and guiding the sphere is the true vision of kerensky
Alaric “But why aren’t you crusaders? Screw it, try your vote. WarBear seemed to have his crap together, maybe your weird way works.”
Much later (severely paraphrased):
Bears return lukewarm desire to join
Alaric: “your way sucks. Come to me United or not at all.” Alaric seems to expect this means as a clan subservient to wolves.
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I’d have to quote several pages of AQoS for context, but the gist of the scene is:
Bear Khan: “We can aid the ilClan in an emergency, but joining you is too much without a vote of our people.”
Alaric: “aren’t you the khans? Just command it.”
Bear Khan: explains patiently that they think uniting with and guiding the sphere is the true vision of kerensky
Alaric “But why aren’t you crusaders? Screw it, try your vote. WarBear seemed to have his crap together, maybe your weird way works.”
Much later (severely paraphrased):
Bears return lukewarm desire to join
Alaric: “your way sucks. Come to me United or not at all.” Alaric seems to expect this means as a clan subservient to wolves.
Well, this at least confirms (to me, anyway) that Alaric's rejection wasn't a sinister plot to destabilize the RasDom, and he seemed to be earnest in what he said to the Khans about trying it their way. That's something, at least.
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Well, this at least confirms (to me, anyway) that Alaric's rejection wasn't a sinister plot to destabilize the RasDom, and he seemed to be earnest in what he said to the Khans about trying it their way. That's something, at least.
In general, I’d recommend reading it directly. My paraphrasing loses nuance. But I think I preserved the gist.
And yeah, to Alaric’s credit, he was willing to let a setup he doesn’t understand have a chance to come to the result he wanted.
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:D
I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realise how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.
Honestly I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognising how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake. Assuming a 50/50 Clan/Rasalhague split and having a black hat white hat war would have been simpler, even if it ignored prior sources. Except that has its own set of problems.
It feels like TPTB are in world / setting building mode. There is a ton of detail, and a fantastic amount of gray space and story hooks for players to attach their stories and campaigns too. Taking in everything from FM3135, ER3145, and Bonfire of Worlds is still just a massive amount of information, and it's all bouncing off a community that is highly resistant to change.
It will probably take a decade for everything from ilClan to IKEO to become fully understood by the player base.
One of the real "challenges" with the ilClan era, is that facts are spreed out between: sourcebooks, novels, and shrapnel and it's all partially summarized, in an often partisan manner, by YouTubers, Redditors, and forum posters. And everything is made that much harder, because the setting and story is deliberately complicated in order to open up a lot of gray space for players to build campaigns and tell their own stories.
Even for people who have read everything, they need to reach back years to remember the details of a specific scene
Any substantial change to the setting takes something like a decade to be understood and accepted (in at least part) by forum / community.
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In general, I’d recommend reading it directly. My paraphrasing loses nuance. But I think I preserved the gist.
Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to spend money on a book that features Jiyi Chistu so heavily (I don't find him or his magical Falcon remnants interesting at all), so in this case, I'm kinda at your mercy here. :laugh:
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:D
I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realise how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.
Honestly I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognising how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake. Assuming a 50/50 Clan/Rasalhague split and having a black hat white hat war would have been simpler, even if it ignored prior sources. Except that has its own set of problems.
Swinging back for a second (sorry late to the conversation)
Please keep adding complexity: fleshing out a faction or setting or region HELPS the universe as a whole even if people don’t like some of the changes. I love that we got a look at more about the Dominion even if the setting was a civil war. I enjoy that we got mentions of the previous fiction (Freeminders and even Lars being added back in) even if I didn’t like where it ended up. You added to the faction and we got ‘screen time’.
Now many people can’t see things right in front of them and many people think theirs something in between the lines. Our imaginations run wild with what we think will happen and then we spin our conspiracies into imagined facts that are not real. The internet only makes it harder because detecting sarcasm or emotion or anything like that is hard to do. So if I ask about the RDS Alshain and if it is a Lev III or not and then if someone asks about Alaric Senpai who knows if either of us are serious. Sadly this leads to arguments and what not because… well humans
Anyways… the Joiners might have won now but who knows: as Jellico said this is book one. Who knows what the DCMS might do or even the Dominion might do. We’re all theorizing about a war but for all we know they could just sit back and skirmish for the next century while everyone figures out their stuff.
Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to spend money on a book that features Jiyi Chistu so heavily (I don't find him or his magical Falcon remnants interesting at all), so in this case, I'm kinda at your mercy here. :laugh:
To each their own: I will say personally though I enjoy the idea of what he and Marena of the AML are trying to do and represent and that’s of the Clans doing things different. Sure of course they’re not standard ways of the Clans, but IMO it’s cool to see all these minor factions come from the rubble and have unique identities. Again to each their own.
It does pain me to see a Kodiak in Falcon colors or to have Bear Cadets treated so badly that they approve being in the Falcons but it is an interesting story.
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To each their own: I will say personally though I enjoy the idea of what he and Marena of the AML are trying to do and represent and that’s of the Clans doing things different. Sure of course they’re not standard ways of the Clans, but IMO it’s cool to see all these minor factions come from the rubble and have unique identities. Again to each their own.
Marena and the AML, to me, are actually something different: a direct challenge to the caste system that isn't immediately being stamped out. I think they have a ton of potential. Jiyi, on the other hand, is just another Clanner Mary Sue who can do no wrong while bucking the system, and that's very unengaging to me. In a perfect world, our new aggressive Horse saKhan will return to Sudeten with the Bucephalus and glass him out of existence. But alas, the fans seem to enjoy this cheesy trope of a character, so all I can do is ignore him. :laugh:
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I'll second previous comments about adding more flavour and complexity to large factions. It's one of the main reasons I like Dominions Divided since it did this for the RasDom, and to a lesser extent the FedSuns.
Anyways… the Joiners might have won now but who knows: as Jellico said this is book one. Who knows what the DCMS might do or even the Dominion might do. We’re all theorizing about a war but for all we know they could just sit back and skirmish for the next century while everyone figures out their stuff.
Fanboy fantasy from my previous post aside, that's the best case scenario I'm actually expecting for the RasDom.
Marena and the AML, to me, are actually something different: a direct challenge to the caste system that isn't immediately being stamped out. I think they have a ton of potential. Jiyi, on the other hand, is just another Clanner Mary Sue who can do no wrong while bucking the system, and that's very unengaging to me. In a perfect world, our new aggressive Horse saKhan will return to Sudeten with the Bucephalus and glass him out of existence. But alas, the fans seem to enjoy this cheesy trope of a character, so all I can do is ignore him. :laugh:
It could be these more enlightened characters are to be the new normal for the 32nd century Clans as hardline traditionalists dwindle in number and become fading relics of an earlier age. Though you're right, that kind of Clanner is getting to be a bit overused.
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The saying is that the Ravens have the largest fleet, quiaff, and there is no real ground room for them
Well, Alarics Fortress wall does need jumpship drives after all :rolleyes:
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The saying is that the Ravens have the largest fleet, quiaff, and there is no real ground room for them
Well, Alarics Fortress wall does need jumpship drives after all :rolleyes:
The majority of the Raven fleet is mothballed. And needs A LOT OF manpower and facilities to get working again.
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The majority of the Raven fleet is mothballed. And needs A LOT OF manpower and facilities to get working again.
No it's not. The Ravens finished reactivating their fleet years before HotW/ilClan.
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No it's not. The Ravens finished reactivating their fleet years before HotW/ilClan.
Which provides the Ravens with an Instant Win, without anyone else having a functional fleet. So it will have to go away, sadly
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Which provides the Ravens with an Instant Win, without anyone else having a functional fleet. So it will have to go away, sadly
It definitely doesn't give them an "Instant Win", especially not in the age of Pocket WarShips. And it's counterbalanced by the fact that their ground forces are downright anemic and are struggling just to hold onto the few crappy FedSuns planets they have (and the Combine worlds they were given). I'm choosing to remain optimistic for the time being. So optimistic, in fact, that I'm hoping the rumors about the Ravens building their own Leviathan III at Quatre Belle turn out to be true so they can get in on the Big Fun with the Ghost Bears and smack the Combine around a little. :laugh:
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Someone needs to remind TPTB at all times that the Draconis Combine builds Vengeances.
The treatment of aerospace in Hour of the Wolf leaves me with little confidence but...
The Dominion, Alliance, and Combine all have very solid DropShip options and can field formidable squadron. Everyone always focuses on the WarShips but this is where the bulk of the Dominion's and Combine's fighting power would be.
Regarding WarShips, the Combine should be fielding C3 equipped heavy squadrons. The combat Nekohono'os make use of a very specific exploit, 108 marines with a modern Small Craft to get them into combat. The older Raven ships are vulnerable to boarding actions and multiple Vengeances are just the distraction to get the troops on board. A WarShip demands multiple DropShip squadrons. I haven't even got into how the Dominion has been building Hunters and Odyssey for decades and the implications of that.
Which is a long way of saying the potential exists for a fun naval war even without the WarShips. If TPTB remember the option exists and doesn't just treat the WarShips as taxi
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The Combine and Suns fleets are also in an information black hole right now
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No it's not. The Ravens finished reactivating their fleet years before HotW/ilClan.
Did they reactivate their entire fleet? FM 3145 makes it sound as if the Ravens don't have the facilities for it. Yes they activated one Star but that is not what they have mothballed
Is there any mention or lore book I missed?
Also: how do you get rid of Warships in the current age? Crash stuff into it, swarm them with fighters, use tactical nukes. The age of huge fleets is long gone
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Someone needs to remind TPTB at all times that the Draconis Combine builds Vengeances.
The treatment of aerospace in Hour of the Wolf leaves me with little confidence but...
The Dominion, Alliance, and Combine all have very solid DropShip options and can field formidable squadron. Everyone always focuses on the WarShips but this is where the bulk of the Dominion's and Combine's fighting power would be.
Regarding WarShips, the Combine should be fielding C3 equipped heavy squadrons. The combat Nekohono'os make use of a very specific exploit, 108 marines with a modern Small Craft to get them into combat. The older Raven ships are vulnerable to boarding actions and multiple Vengeances are just the distraction to get the troops on board. A WarShip demands multiple DropShip squadrons. I haven't even got into how the Dominion has been building Hunters and Odyssey for decades and the implications of that.
Which is a long way of saying the potential exists for a fun naval war even without the WarShips. If TPTB remember the option exists and doesn't just treat the WarShips as taxi
Also that the Dominion's Black Navy forces didn't take part in the civil unrest/war/family squabble and are untouched iirc and the large amounts of Combat Dropships (and some combat small craft) we have access to via production and trade, Nagasawa-class paired with an NL-45 Gunboat i'm looking at you, or a Vanir with three NL-45's
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Did they reactivate their entire fleet? FM 3145 makes it sound as if the Ravens don't have the facilities for it. Yes they activated one Star but that is not what they have mothballed
Is there any mention or lore book I missed?
No, you just misread the FM3145 entry. It specifically says that the Ravens have reactivated their fleet (at the cost of straining their economy and not being able to expand their ground forces). The Naval Stars listed are shown in the Ravens' force deployments table, all of them at 100% strength and assigned to each of their frontline Galaxies.
This is confirmed in ER3145, where it is mentioned that there are rumors that started circulating in 3135 about the Ravens reactivating its mothballed fleet, and that the Suns/Combine conflict that started in the early 3140s brought confirmation of those rumors.
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You are right both books state that the Ravens reactivated their fleet. FM 3145 even lists every ship they have in service. But also, as you said, that is their opnly advantage as their ground forces suffered for it. especially as the Alliance is not heavily industrialized and also not that haveily populated. so if you break the fleet the Ravens are in essenc a toothless tiger. I had read it as if the ships are reactivated but not fully combat ready.
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Someone needs to remind TPTB at all times that the Draconis Combine builds Vengeances.
The treatment of aerospace in Hour of the Wolf leaves me with little confidence but...
The Dominion, Alliance, and Combine all have very solid DropShip options and can field formidable squadron. Everyone always focuses on the WarShips but this is where the bulk of the Dominion's and Combine's fighting power would be.
Regarding WarShips, the Combine should be fielding C3 equipped heavy squadrons. The combat Nekohono'os make use of a very specific exploit, 108 marines with a modern Small Craft to get them into combat. The older Raven ships are vulnerable to boarding actions and multiple Vengeances are just the distraction to get the troops on board. A WarShip demands multiple DropShip squadrons. I haven't even got into how the Dominion has been building Hunters and Odyssey for decades and the implications of that.
Which is a long way of saying the potential exists for a fun naval war even without the WarShips. If TPTB remember the option exists and doesn't just treat the WarShips as taxi
Oh I can never discount the Bears aerospace (non-Warship) fleet. We have Aesirs and Vanirs (along with lots of other types) and we have/had a whole dedicated Aerospace Galaxy to boot.
I’ve always had a health respect for the Combines Dropships. Their Warships might have been meh but between the Nekohono and others they design they have a healthy DropShip wing, and enough aerospace to put a serious fight with the Bears.
The Ravens on the other hand have undisputed air authority…. But once again that doesn’t help win a ground conflict. The type of war will depend on how effective they will be on prosecuting it.
I totally forgot about our Jumpship production. I did not consider that and that is a bit of an advantage. That’s a thing most people tend to forget about IMO, Jumpships and transportation.
And replying others: yes the age of the Fleet is over but those behemoths that are left can still hurt. I know TPTB have tried to get rid of most of them for the settings sake but I hope if we’re to lose anything more it will be a decent send off.
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And replying others: yes the age of the Fleet is over but those behemoths that are left can still hurt. I know TPTB have tried to get rid of most of them for the settings sake but I hope if we’re to lose anything more it will be a decent send off.
I hope we get a resurgence of WarShips at some point. I loathe the fact that TPTB have made a point to get rid of them, and think losing them takes away a bit of the setting's flavor. Lancer hasn't had a problem integrating combat starships into their setting without taking the focus off the mecha, and I hold out hope that one day TPTB will get it figured out, too.
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I hope we get a resurgence of WarShips at some point. I loathe the fact that TPTB have made a point to get rid of them, and think losing them takes away a bit of the setting's flavor. Lancer hasn't had a problem integrating combat starships into their setting without taking the focus off the mecha, and I hold out hope that one day TPTB will get it figured out, too.
One of the many reasons I enjoyed the two Succession Wars and two Liberation of Terra sourcebooks because of the naval actions. I totally agree and it’s a shame to see it disappear. The Dominion getting a Leviathan III gives me hope for naval engagements but at the same time I know it won’t be large battles. Even the Ursa Major fight in the Second War was only a five ship battle and that was epic.
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One of the many reasons I enjoyed the two Succession Wars and two Liberation of Terra sourcebooks because of the naval actions. I totally agree and it’s a shame to see it disappear. The Dominion getting a Leviathan III gives me hope for naval engagements but at the same time I know it won’t be large battles. Even the Ursa Major fight in the Second War was only a five ship battle and that was epic.
It's so funny you say that about those Historical volumes as I was literally just reading them today and for that very reason! And hell, I'd be just as happy to see smaller-scale naval actions like what you mentioned in the Second Combine-Dominion War... but I don't want to see it just be assault droppers and PWS, damn it, I wanna see some actual WarShips! The Alshain (and, if the rumors turn out to be true, the Ravens' own Lev III that they might be building) give me hope that we'll see some sort of balance.
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It's so funny you say that about those Historical volumes as I was literally just reading them today and for that very reason! And hell, I'd be just as happy to see smaller-scale naval actions like what you mentioned in the Second Combine-Dominion War... but I don't want to see it just be assault droppers and PWS, damn it, I wanna see some actual WarShips! The Alshain (and, if the rumors turn out to be true, the Ravens' own Lev III that they might be building) give me hope that we'll see some sort of balance.
The only real PWS’s I want to see in big naval fights are the plethora of RotS PWS’s they supposedly had: Castrums and Tiamats supported by all the other PWS they had access to (Arondrights, Interdictors, etc).
If we’re going to get a big PWS/ fleet battle for the modern ages can we at least have the big boys come out to play.
One of the coolest (IMO) Warship fights was in the First War when the AFFS had a couple squadrons of LAM’s land on a Samarkand Carrier and tear it apart from the inside, using their other carriers air wings as a distraction. Like let’s see the Crescent Hawks do that to the Bears new Leviathan and that be an epic fight/death (admittedly it would make no sense but who cares at that point).
I am glad that nothing happened to the Dominion Fleet in our little civil war. That would have really sucked. I feel bad for the Falcons losing the Emerald Talon to Malvinas antics even if it was crippled: sure their was a fight but I feel like it could have been repaired over time.
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I swear no one does subtlety or reads between lines any more. A large number of readers seem to think the Joiners have won for now and ever more.
As noted from before DD, we are in book one. There is a long way to go yet.
Not directly this, but I wonder how many forum members and BT fans have neurodivergences (known or unknown) that make the new books A) a slog and B) take them literally because that's how their brain is?
I also wonder if that was some of the issue with the Jihad era, it was cool to see the chaos from an in universe view but the most useful bit to me was the timelines because it gave me the fixed datum points that my brain needs to make sense of things, it's one of my issues with the way things are atm, I need a novel (that i can struggle with because i can forget what's happened a page ago) and a source book that's intentionally vague and missing bits from the novel, "To create more opportunity for player narative" (sic) so i can't see the whole picture. Yes this is a me problem, but it might not be just a me, me problem, do you see the problem this could course, with information over multiple formats some being difficult for me and/or others to digest?, I understand that CGL has to push it's products, it's a company.
So no i don't do subtle or read between the lines, because it's not how I was born, the only thing I have is what is in the books.
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Not directly this, but I wonder how many forum members and BT fans have neurodivergences (known or unknown) that make the new books A) a slog and B) take them literally because that's how their brain is?
I have high-functioning autism, if that fills your criteria. There was a time when I would have taken everything at face value, and that's still my default mode for most part. But 20+ years of education and experience with how normal humans think and speak means I'm better able to read between the lines, understand and dish out deadpan snark, spot veiled insults, etc.
Regarding BattleTech, unless it's explicitly conspiracy theory material I tend to take info at face value unless I know or suspect it's contradicted somewhere. Or both parties are unreliable narrators. But I wouldn't consider it a retcon if in-universe a character or intel report was later shown to be wrong.
For myself, I don't find either novels or sourcebooks a slog because of length. They're only a slog if I find them uninteresting, like (heresy!) the first two GDL novels when I tried re-reading them last year.
As for Jellico's point about the Joiners, I didn't actually get the impression the Joiners had won long-term, or even at the end of DD. More like both sides have put the grudge on hold while doing an activity they're both looking forward to.
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The end of Dominions divided made it sound like as if the current Ghost Bear leadership is trying to use a quick war with an outside enemy to glue the separate elements together. Basically united in front of a common enemy. Problem is:
1. The Bears are the aggressor.
2. The Combine is despite their retreat from most of their conquests in the Suns still a formidable and fanatical opponent and may take the Bears as their own "unification" event because Yori has cleaned house as well and needs something to rally around
3. The shortt civil war hasn't changed much. While it seems the Joiners have won that is most likely only temporary. If the war against the Combine goes south (which the wording implies) who knows what happens next. Maybe the big troop resevere Aalaric speculated on will vanish in more wars. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Bears realize "Hey wait a minute. Who actually made us fight among ourselves?" and point their guns at the Wolves next? Kind of like what happened when the Wolves egged the Horses on to attack the Dominion before the Jihad
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That is true, he (Alaric man child) did make them fight amongst themselves. Will be interesting when they realize this
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I had a thought that one reason why the writers and developers may have created the joiner-denier dynamic was to create new mercenary groups. Although there will be an underlying pressure in the Dominion you will also have disaffected members leaving and making their own way. Joiners, of course, will team up with Alaric and his Wolves. Deniers will try to find their own way most will work for the FedSuns, Lyrans, and FWL. Of course few will join the Combine or Capellans but last I heard neither were really hiring either.
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Perhaps the Dominion becomes splintered as well. This seems to be the current theme that a lot of nations splinter (or rather balkanize). Maybe a break up along the Joiner Denier lines? Or perhaps even among nationalities? A Vega Protectorate, a "Real Rasalhague Republic and a Bear Dominion? And along comes the Star League to collect all the pieces
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I feel like if we that was the direction we were gonna be heading, we'd have seen it happen already.
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Perhaps the Dominion becomes splintered as well. This seems to be the current theme that a lot of nations splinter (or rather balkanize). Maybe a break up along the Joiner Denier lines? Or perhaps even among nationalities? A Vega Protectorate, a "Real Rasalhague Republic and a Bear Dominion? And along comes the Star League to collect all the pieces
If they become “splintered” I see it more along the lines of the FWL. They’ve unified the FWL if they wanted to splinter all the major factions they would have killed the current Captain-General and let nature take its course. I’m not saying the splinter factions will disappear just we will not see the rise of a thousand nations.
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I think that it is more likely that the Bears will be forced to abandon Vega as indefensible (If they are not swept there first) than it become its own state. As for a Rasalhague/Clan split, neither can afford it unless the Bears merge with the Wolves on Terra. That has not stopped such events from happening in history before, but Rasalhague tends to have a realist view of their situation.
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I can see it being the building blocks for the later Separatist/Periphery forces and a need for the Auditor Clusters, mentioned in the post dated sections of other books, the yes and no factions bury the hatchet in the Combine, things simmer, while the Dominion joins the SL, the SL abuses it's position like every attempt at it even the first one did, reignites the factions and we get a rebirth of a Rasalhague nation as a freedom fighting oppressed group, with some going of to the new Periphery and some factories supporting them, under the table, with older equipment.. something, something, something, time passes the nu, nu, nu, new Sl collapses because of its own hubris, this time the leaders just realising recreating it is a silly idea and Earth is just a painting and we can move on from the idea of a SL.
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I wouldn’t assume yet that RasDom joins the league. All the hints are that the pro joiner groups are about to get egg on their face from the Combine.
That said, I’ve wondered if RasDom loses hard if the joiners would lose a ton of influence. Would that drive somemdiehards to break off and join the ilclan as “the real Ghost Bears?” It’s a bit of a rehash of sorts with the Falcons where there’s a tiny scrap of them as part of Alaric’s wolves and the rest as independent, but it would give Alaric a few desperately needed people.
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A rout might take the RD's mind off of the Star League entirely for a season.
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Just a question: does the Motstand still exist in the Dominion? From what I remember they got basically wiped out by Dahlia Bekker who used it as a springboard to Khanship. But might there be remnants left? I thought I had read something along the line in Dominions Divided but I might be mistaken. Just think about this: the war goes south and now you have to face terror attacks from within too. And this time they might have also otherwise loyal Rasalhagians among their ranks
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Just a question: does the Motstand still exist in the Dominion? From what I remember they got basically wiped out by Dahlia Bekker who used it as a springboard to Khanship. But might there be remnants left? I thought I had read something along the line in Dominions Divided but I might be mistaken. Just hink about this: the war goes south and now you have to face terror attacks from within too. And thios time they might have also otherwise loaly Rasalhagians among their ranks
There are elements of Motstand left but (for now) you more likely see them at street corners and rally’s than trying to attack recruiting stations or bases.
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Just a question: does the Motstand still exist in the Dominion? From what I remember they got basically wiped out by Dahlia Bekker who used it as a springboard to Khanship. But might there be remnants left? I thought I had read something along the line in Dominions Divided but I might be mistaken. Just hink about this: the war goes south and now you have to face terror attacks from within too. And thios time they might have also otherwise loaly Rasalhagians among their ranks
I could give some real life examples...
Think somewhere between old racist uncle, and that group of old guys at the back of the bar who talk a lot but are too comfortable to do anything.
Since Bekker wrecked them Motstand is caught between rebuilding and a population that is comfortable with the status quo. Indeed Joiners and Denier used them as a source of weapons without buying into the ideology. Mimir know who they are and wishes they would just shut up and let demography do its work. While there was nothing specific about Motpart, they probably think the same.
Motstand need some stars to align to become relevant again. Specifically Rasalhagians to feel oppressed. The Joiner Denier divide isn't that yet. At this point I don't see how that will happen in the medium term. There are pluses and minuses for Rasalhagians in a Star League and there is no real consensus on that yet.
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I could give some real life examples...
Think somewhere between old racist uncle, and that group of old guys at the back of the bar who talk a lot but are too comfortable to do anything.
Since Bekker wrecked them Motstand is caught between rebuilding and a population that is comfortable with the status quo. Indeed Joiners and Denier used them as a source of weapons without buying into the ideology. Mimir know who they are and wishes they would just shut up and let demography do its work. While there was nothing specific about Motpart, they probably think the same.
Motstand need some stars to align to become relevant again. Specifically Rasalhagians to feel oppressed. The Joiner Denier divide isn't that yet. At this point I don't see how that will happen in the medium term. There are pluses and minuses for Rasalhagians in a Star League and there is no real consensus on that yet.
General conscription and economic mobilisation for Rasalhagians into a losing Joiner war to assault Luthien, protect Ghost Bear OZ holdings in the Combine region, and the Bear's Terra Invasion Corridor and Freeminder dumping ground in Vega; while the Bear's congenial frenemies and would-be Denier brethren, the Horses, continue to hold Rasalhague systems from New Oslo to Hyperion to Csesztreg, could get the ball rolling in the short-term.
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General conscription and economic mobilisation for Rasalhagians into a losing Joiner war to assault Luthien...
When did this become Joiner war? It's been made very clear that this is a common project
...while the Bear's congenial frenemies and would-be Denier brethren, the Horses, continue to hold Rasalhague systems from New Oslo to Hyperion to Csesztreg, could get the ball rolling in the short-term.
By this logic Rasalhague continues to hold Draconis Combine systems from Rasalhague to Alshain
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When did this become Joiner war? It's been made very clear that this is a common project
When a blatantly Joiner leader took the reins of power and initiated the war. It's not complicated.
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So I’m otherwise good news my Bears have defeated two Falcon forces in the past month and claimed a Binary in salvage. First a Star on Star match, losing two of my own mechs (one pilot dead) to defeat an enemy Star (three pilots dead). A second match pitted three commanders on each side: a Falcon commander died to a headshot and I claimed an almost pristine Jade Phoenix, while the other two Falcons fell with ‘minimal’ damage on my end (my Cave Bear will need a LOT of armor and like a couple points of ES replaced). I have a third Trial set with the Falcons to ‘acquire’ a third and final Star of mechs. Hopefully I can go 3/3.
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When a blatantly Joiner leader took the reins of power and initiated the war. It's not complicated.
A war which both sides jumped on, not just Joiners
Also not complicated
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A war which both sides jumped on, not just Joiners
Also not complicated
Deniers (and Joiners, for that matter) being stupid enough to go along with it doesn't make it any less of a Joiner-initiated war. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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General conscription and economic mobilisation for Rasalhagians into a losing Joiner war to assault Luthien, protect Ghost Bear OZ holdings in the Combine region, and the Bear's Terra Invasion Corridor and Freeminder dumping ground in Vega; while the Bear's congenial frenemies and would-be Denier brethren, the Horses, continue to hold Rasalhague systems from New Oslo to Hyperion to Csesztreg, could get the ball rolling in the short-term.
What Ghost Bear OZ? Does the Alshain Military District mean nothing to Rasalhagians?
Failure in war will cut across factions in the Dominion. Why would Motstand be special? Miraborg is a Rasalhagian, trained to be a Ghost Bear, ELECTED by everyone. He is a product of the system. The system the Rasalhagians forced into place in 3103. Plenty of blame to go around. While there are those in Motstand that may gain some support but the drivers aren't there for some kind of grand Rasalhagian revolution. If anything the result would be some kind of nationalist dictatorship.
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What Ghost Bear OZ?
Referring to the former Combine worlds that either fell to the Bears, or eventually traded hands from Smoke Jaguar/Nova Cat/Combine to Ghost Bear control in their OZ/Dominion. The ones that were never part of an independent Rasalhague, but were some of Ghost Bear's earlier and most recent prizes. The ones that now have populations exhibiting pro-Combine sentiment and inflaming regional tensions.
Does the Alshain Military District mean nothing to Rasalhagians?
Outside of Alshain being a place of interest to younger Haakon Magnusson, the Alshain Military District was made up of 2/3rds leftover Combine border worlds from the two pro-Combine spinward Rasalhague Military District prefectures, and half of Buckminster prefecture from Benjamin District to make up the numbers. These are people who mostly weren't interested in joining an independent Rasalhague, and Rasalhague wasn't particularly interested in claiming them.
They mean a lot more to the Ghost Bears comparitively, because many are isorla from their greatest and most well-known victories, and early OZ strongholds.
These are the territories at stake.
Contrast that with the territory that the Horses are sitting on, which encompasses about a third of the former territory of the Free Rasalhague Republic, and recently, two founding worlds of the Principality, which were surrendered in polite trials between clans, rather than contested.
You've said yourself that the Dominion isn't just Rasalhague or faux Swedes; it's more like one of three regions in the Dominion, which have underlying tensions between them and their own regional interests.
In a war going badly, initiated by Ghost Bear elites, spending Rasalhagian lives and treasure to protect the Vega-Terra Corridor and faraway Ghost Bear conquests like Mualang, while the Bears leave everything anti-spinward of Rasalhague itself in the hands of the Horses, with the occasional friendly drag race between the two to interrupt the peace, there would be more than enough to stoke resentment over Rasalhagian nationalism versus Ghost Bear empire-building.
Failure in war will cut across factions in the Dominion. Why would Motstand be special? Miraborg is a Rasalhagian, trained to be a Ghost Bear, ELECTED by everyone. He is a product of the system. The system the Rasalhagians forced into place in 3103. Plenty of blame to go around. While there are those in Motstand that may gain some support but the drivers aren't there for some kind of grand Rasalhagian revolution.
No one likes to lose, or be losing, a war. It cuts across societal lines, but not equally, or in a shared solidarity. People look to blame the decision-makers, which in this case would be the societal elite, which is the touman, and the Khan-like, Clan-oriented Miraborg. They can see the system fail them, bigtime. The system which is itself still a frankensteinian compromise, dominated by the touman, resembling a mere outgrowth of the warrior caste voting systems imposed by the Ghost Bears, rather than anything resembling native Rasalhagian democracy. No-one's going to share the blame around for defeat; victory has many parents, but defeat is an orphan, as they say.
Resentment, economic turmoil, regional tensions, human cost, military defeat, waning public confidence in the elite, and a perceived tyrant who represents them; these are all potential drivers that can come into play.
If anything the result would be some kind of nationalist dictatorship.
I'd be interested to ask you to walk me through your ideas on this, if it's not a bother, because I'm not sure on the more exact details of what you meant by it.
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I'd be interested to ask you to walk me through your ideas on this, if it's not a bother, because I'm not sure on the more exact details of what you meant by it.
Sure.
Sure. While we can quibble on the details the Dominion is basically democratic. You get a selection of nobles and notables and you pick the ones you like.
The result of any revolution is not going to be democratic. Might wins.
A Rasalhagian revolution is inherently nationalistic. That is the point. Rasalhague for Rasalhagians. Hense the nationalist bit.
After achieving victory you just reintroduce democracy right? Yeah, I suppose if you are back to the core worlds around Rasalhague. But given the majority of the Dominion has been united for eighty years one imagines the revolutionaries would try for the whole thing.
Revolutions work by thirds. Congratulations. A third of the nation hates your guts. A different third of your nation isn't Rasalhagian in a nation founded on being Rasalhagian. Now your government will have to keep a lid on this. You are not doing this without restricting the vote and applying some violence.
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Thanks.
Sure. While we can quibble on the details the Dominion is basically democratic. You get a selection of nobles and notables and you pick the ones you like.
I can do more than quibble. 'Basically democratic' is a generous self-assessment that could only come from a clan-oriented perspective. You elect two Ghost Bear touman officers from the garrison to an enlarged Ghost Bear council and your civilian rep gets to tag along too. The Elected Prince? Clan-indoctrinated Ghost Bear touman officer.
From a Ghost Bear perspective, it's comparitively magnaminous.
From a Rasalhagian perspective, it's not even half-measures.
The result of any revolution is not going to be democratic. Might wins.
As opposed to the righteous might of Clan Ghost Bear? Are revolutions inherently bad things, from a moral and storytelling perspective, in a game and story universe centred around conflict, or only if they go against Ghost Bear interests?
A Rasalhagian revolution is inherently nationalistic. That is the point. Rasalhague for Rasalhagians. Hense the nationalist bit.
Understood. I felt like I had to ask you to clarify, because I see two nationalisms; Rasalhague civic nationalism and the Dominion's greater Pax Ursa, and I wanted to know which one you were referring to. I don't see why you're framing the former in such strictly pejorative terms; conjuring images of ethnic nationalist dictatorships of the '30s.
Perhaps a revolution would need to be necessarily led by a Rasalhagian Bonaparte for a time, in terms of having an identifiable traditional Battletech story character, and the outward face of provisional government. Was Mansdottir a would-be nationalist dictator?
After achieving victory you just reintroduce democracy right? Yeah, I suppose if you are back to the core worlds around Rasalhague. But given the majority of the Dominion has been united for eighty years one imagines the revolutionaries would try for the whole thing.
Empires have lasted longer and come apart faster.
How much of current Dominion territory would be seen as essential claims for a liberated Rasalhague state would be a very up-in-the air discussion, but I wouldn't see total control of Bear conquests as essential, especially if peace needs to be made or deals need to be brokered with say, the incoming Star League. Why expend yourself in a fight to take Ghost Bear prizes like Vega, Mualang and Ko if you can better secure Orestes, Rasalhague, Alshain, Trondheim? You're looking at this from a Ghost Bear perspective, imprinting CGB concerns onto Rasalhagian nationalists.
And yeah, reintroduce democracy in the Rasalhagian tradition, rather than the Bear tradition.
Revolutions work by thirds. Congratulations. A third of the nation hates your guts. A different third of your nation isn't Rasalhagian in a nation founded on being Rasalhagian. Now your government will have to keep a lid on this. You are not doing this without restricting the vote and applying some violence.
As opposed to Ghost Bears restricting the vote to suit their interests and applying some violence, while keeping a lid on Rasalhagian nationalism.
Does Rasalhague have to take on the strategic responsibilities of the Ghost Bear's empire? Leave Vega to the Bears, let the Combine-adjacent systems go if need be, make peace with the ilClan, the Combine, Tamar; focus on the threat of the Horses. Let Rasalhague as a faction focus on Rasalhagian interests, ambitiously, instead of just being involved in what's important to the Ghost Bears.
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Maybe the Bears are up to go the way of the Kindraas?
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Maybe the Bears are up to go the way of the Kindraas?
Don’t you put that curse on us !! Lol
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Does Rasalhague have to take on the strategic responsibilities of the Ghost Bear's empire? Leave Vega to the Bears, let the Combine-adjacent systems go if need be, make peace with the ilClan, the Combine, Tamar; focus on the threat of the Horses. Let Rasalhague as a faction focus on Rasalhagian interests, ambitiously, instead of just being involved in what's important to the Ghost Bears.
Rasalhague ambitious nationalism has only two possible outcomes
Happy one: Get absorbed by New Star League and fade into history after getting stomped if they try to resist
Unhappy one: Get stomped and then set on fire by Kuritans after they come back to reclaim what is rightfully theirs by the very standards you are applying
FRR was never anything more than ComStar puppet state created by swindling Lyrans and Combine in the era before truth about existence of ComGuards was revealed and Operation SCORPION was attempted (and as playground for Clan Invasion storyline writing IRL)
Had Kuritans knew about any of these they would never have even considered letting Rasalhague go other than in post-mortem condition
And without Ghost Bears Rasalhague is a D-tier military non-entity same as they always been, only thing that kept Kuritans away once ComStar fizzled out were Ghost Bears
Being Combine neighbor comes with certain set of limitations and certainties
As for democracy, republics, elections and all that low-key noblebrigh stuff, this is a setting about kings, tyrants, despots and warlords. Democracy has no place here. They tried with RotS decades ago and it sank like a brick because audience is not here for United Federation of Planets, they are here for Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans
It's just how the fictional universe works, giant stompy robots stomp puny humans, discussing morality of the stomping outside humor puts a damper on fun
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*snip*
You think I haven't heard this trite, mask-off, negging tirade of faction flaming, narrative conjecture, threats of extermination, Kuritans-Under-The Bed, insistence on clan dependence and demands for piety before?
Topped with an additional lecture on what people ought to find enjoyment in the game.
Going to ask you to wind your neck in, please. We're all here to talk about what we enjoy.
Rasalhague has plenty of levers to exploit, capture, confiscate and take advantage of, and potential allies, outside of Ghost Bear influence. The Kuritan boogeyman surrendered it's claims to Republic territory in 3034, and not even traditionalists are coming to collect; piecemeal Ghost Bear isorla gains are another matter.
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It's just how the fictional universe works, giant stompy robots stomp puny humans, discussing morality of the stomping outside humor puts a damper on fun
If it's not a fun discussion for you, don't participate in it. But these forums have always had discussions about ethics and morality within the setting, and it's fun for plenty of us to talk about.
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[snip]
Option 3, the Ghost Bear remnant culture gets fully absorbed after being shown to be trouble, the same with Rasalhague culture, TPTB have gone out of their way to show that it's now one culture taking aspects of both and i think book 2 about us will take that one step further and eventually morph the Ghost Bears into something akin to the "Old boys" group in the Fed Suns, where it doesn't really mean anything but it helps and Bear culture is just a military subculture the same as it would be for most civilizations.
Yes the FRR was a puppet state and Lyran-Combine cold war battle ground, possibly even there just to show how dangerous the Clans were without doing real damage to a real State, but that a long time ago now, things change and it's not 3025.
We don't know what the Kuritans would do, since it was Teddy Kurita, not exactly the most orthodox.
The only real thing keeping the Kuritan or Lyrans out were people wanting it to be 3025 always and forever where a banana in a cardboard cut out of a mech could defend a planet, and since you brought up the original plans, it wouldn't have been the Bears, it would have been the Wolves or Falcons keeping everyone out, since at least one TPTB have said the original plans were for the Falcons and Wolves to absorb all the other clans in their fight to become ilClan.
The limitations of being the combines neighbour is that that's the only faction we can fight, so that's either an eternity of stalemates, or we take turns on who wins and loses, and the last two stalemates didn't go down so well.
I seem to recall that the Marik fans exist and quite like their own brand of chaos, and lack of ability to do almost anything.
People have been discussing the moral, ethical, and decisions of fictional people in fictional universes since there was fiction, it's mostly what it was made to do, from Greek theater to Tolkeen getting 3am phone calls from people in the US asking about character choices.
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**Mod Notice**
It says a lot about the devotion of Battletech fans that so many discussions about the fictional space politics of fictional space empires end up getting unnecessarily personal. In any case, please step back and take a breath, gang. If you can't engage in the thread without verbally punching each other, please reconsider why you're posting about the topic at all.
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I don't want to poke a hornets nest, but I do want to ask a question;
I'm a pretty new player and the only book I've read is DD and most of my knowledge comes from Sarna.
Is there any evidence that a noticeable portion of the Rasalhague Dominion wants to split into it's two constituent parts?
There's Motstånd, but I get the impression that they are viewed as murderous extremists by the vast majority of the Dominion after they killed hundreds of civilians.
Nothing in DD gave me the impression that there was a desire by anyone for the RD to split, so I'm just not sure why it would be in the cards for the future.
Thanks.
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After digesting DD, I have to say that I'm starting to really like what the Bears have done with Rasalhague. And it better not end! -- improvements can and probably should be made, but I don't want to see this fusion fissioned!
I've always been a fan of the Clans in general, but up until recently the Bears to me were just kind of a Clan, no more or less. Now I'm interested!
Damn, I wish FASA had made a Ghost Bear Handbook like they did with the Falcons and Wolves. I might have been a bigger fan all along!
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Why not combine both books, cut it a third and add family planned Parenthood to the remaing parts?
TT
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Isn't that kind of what Warriors of Kerensky was but on a larger scale? Just kidding, but yeah, I would have bought a GB Handbook to go with the others.
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After digesting DD, I have to say that I'm starting to really like what the Bears have done with Rasalhague. And it better not end! -- improvements can and probably should be made, but I don't want to see this fusion fissioned!
Same. They definitely seem to be a unique and ongoing experiment in the universe.
I just don't see that experiment ending anytime soon. The conflict in DD was ideological, not demographic, and I haven't seen anything to indicate that any subsection of the Rasalhague Dominion has any interest in separating.
(Besides Motstånd terrorists that seem to be seen as irrelevant)
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I can offer an in-universe explanation/perspective:
Rasalhague has always had a strong, independently-minded, national identity, formed from refugees and immigrants from a Terra that failed them, and continued to exploit them afterward; they were vassalized by, allied to, and then united with, the Draconis Combine. Even the elites intermarried with, fought for, and eventually became the ruling Kuritan dynasty.
Over 700 years, as part of the Combine, they had good times and bad times, sometimes treated preferentially, sometimes treated unfairly, they were given cultural and political exceptions and concessions, but also given the spotlight for surveillance. Under the imperial aegis of the Combine, Rasalhague developed and expanded, culturally, economically, militarily, territorially. They were a powerful part of a powerful empire, and by and large, as in every empire, Rasalhagian people weren't ready to stick their necks out to rebel against that on a whim. Yet many were always deadset against the Combine, many were enthusiastic collaborators, but they retained that national identity throughout by fair means and foul, against attempts to suppress and subvert that identity in kind, by fair means and foul. Collaboration vs. Insurgency, the Velvet Glove vs. the Iron Fist.
Fast forward to the 4th Succession War and the rebel movements finally have their opportunity and take it, they take the majority of the former Rasalhague Military district from the Combine, and in a diplomatic coup, take the Rasalhagian portion of the Tamar Pact from the Lyrans as well, along with other systems that buy into this new, democratic, independent, civic-nationalist state. They've got their own state, their own rules and institutions, it's theirs, and no-one else is here to tell them what to do with it. They fiercely guard this state from 3034 through to the 3070's.
Fast forward again to the 3060's, and the Ghost Bear Dominion is declared by CGB, who have moved in to colonise their population and build an empire in the territories they've taken from Rasalhague since the invasion of 3050; they have plenty of ideas of what to do to refashion Rasalhague in the image of the clans, by fair means and foul. The people of the Free Rasalhague Republic who have resisted for so long, who even balked against perceived influence from secular Comstar allies, are forced into an impossible situation when they find their allies smashed by the FedCom civil war, and are invaded during an intervention against the Word of Blake during the Jihad. They are forced to agree to vassalisation, and eventual annexation, into the Dominion.
Just like with the Combine conquest, the cycle begins again, as a part of the Dominion, which has recently expanded rapidly as an empire to include non-Rasalhague territories, while Rasalhagian Core, and Rasalhagian-Lyran territories are left in the hands of clan allies, the Horses and the Wolves. Rasalhague is again split between empires, and finds itself as one region of another larger empire.
They have good times and bad times, etc. etc. again. Under the imperial aegis of the Dominion, Rasalhague develops and expands etc. etc. again, with access to Clantech. It's the Combine: This Time It's Bears. They are a powerful part of a powerful empire, and by and large, as in every empire, Rasalhagian people aren't ready to stick their necks out to rebel against that on a whim. Yet many are always deadset against the Bears, many are enthusiastic collaborators, etc. etc. Collaboration vs. Insurgency, the Velvet Glove vs. the Iron Fist.
It's the same cycle, and whilst you can't poll a population on whether or not they'd join a revolution tomorrow, or predict when a revolutionary moment of impetus may occur, political violence begets further political violence, which for now has been temporarily stifled in the Dominion by an aggressive war, and could take a different and more subversive turn if the war brings material and human costs which Rasalhagians aren't willing to bear on the Ghost Bear elites' behalf.
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Welcome to BattleTech.
Was that a 90 word sentence? :shocked:
Rasalhagians aren't willing to bear on the Ghost Bear elites' behalf.
The counterpoint being somebody voted these people into power. Are the elite Clan? Yes. But that is like asking whether the elite of the Fed Suns have a choice of more than three surnames? The Rasalhague elite remain Miraborgs and Magnussons just like in 3049 and the Sorensons are all gone.
Dominions Divided sidesteps the issue of the Clan elite by putting the decision to join a Star League to the people and half want to. Everything else is representative democracy. Leaders doing what they think is best for the nation. Through a Clan lense? Yes, Clans dominate the elite. But everything is calculated upon what they can convince the wider population to follow. Remember the Rasalhague Dominion is founded on the bulk of the civilian population refusing to support the choices of Clan Ghost Bear in the Second DC/Dominion War. The executive is civilian.
That is the beauty(?) of the Joiner/Denier division. It cuts across all society. Does it make sense? I have totally different reasons than Motpart for thinking them unnecessary but they take the Rasalhague independence question out of the equation.
If and when the invasion of the Draconis Combine fails, Miraborg and the Joiners will be blamed. Not the Ghost Bears. Half of them will be against the war because half of them are Deniers. How does that make it a war of the Ghost Bear elite?
At the end of the day there were no good choices at the end of Dominions Divided. You can't go south because that would be a curb stomp and the Wolves have a destiny. Can't go west because that would be a curb stomp and the Horses have a destiny and the Hinterland is the hot new thing. Can't go east because that is a woodchipper with no good outcome. Can't sit still because that has been the situation since 2002 and you can't keep keeping one of the more popular factions out of the storyline.
The Dominion had to be dealt in somehow. The most obvious onramp being the Star League. The large Rasalhague population was always going to define what happened. But a straight no was always impossible because it would mean sitting out events until the Wolf storyline had run its course. Yay more sitzkrieg.
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It's the Combine: This Time It's Bears.
It absolutely is not, no matter how many times you repeat this slanted and erroneous mantra.
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...
The conflict in DD was ideological, not demographic, and I haven't seen anything to indicate that any subsection of the Rasalhague Dominion has any interest in separating.
(Besides Motstånd terrorists that seem to be seen as irrelevant)
Yeah, they have been together for century now and the setup has been working much more often than it didn't
Trying to separate Rasalhaguans and Ghost Bears now would be like trying to separate flour and eggs after you already baked the cake
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It absolutely is not, no matter how many times you repeat this slanted and erroneous mantra.
I think this is the legit first time I've brought up the comparison, and the thought came from Jellico's own previous discussions on this subject in the past, in the same context of discussing Rasalhague pros and cons as part of a wider empire.
If you felt the need to ignore the entire context of that post, take a small tongue-in-cheek tagline, and venomously characterise it as 'slanted and erroneous mantra', I feel like the argument stands fine on it's own.
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My single Arcas is painted in FRR colours... from a successful ToP Horse raid.
The MechWarrior successfully fought off two Points of Horse Elementals supported by a Horse Ryoken J.
Needless to say, it was a prize, she fought and earned her codex that day, during 2998.
TT
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Yet many are always deadset against the Bears, many are enthusiastic collaborators, etc. etc.
Are there many that are deadset against the remnants of Clan Ghost Bear though?
I mean this as a legitimate question, not sarcasm. My exposure to the lore has been limited, but I haven't seen anything to suggest there are.
Honestly, coming fresh into the universe like I have, I find it weird that there's even still considered a distinction between 'Native Rasalhague-ians' and 'Clan Ghost Bear'.
The impression I get from Dominions Divided of the Rasalhague Dominion is that the current nation is so far removed from it's constituent parts that both of those terms don't really mean anything.
The Clan Ghost Bear element of the Rasalhague Dominion seems to be so far divorced from what Clans were that, in purely my humble opinion, it shouldn't really be considered a Clan any more.
It's just the nation's military apparatus.
Likewise, the current Rasalhague population seems to be so intermixed with that of the former Clan Ghost Bear that the concept of 'a Native Rasalhague' population being separate from a 'Clan Ghost Bear' population just... doesn't seem to be a 'thing'.
Trying to separate Rasalhaguans and Ghost Bears now would be like trying to separate flour and eggs after you already baked the cake
I feel like this is a good analogy.
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The Clan problem is that their system was inherently inferior to anything they ran up against, including that of the Oberon Confederation. Clan Wolverine may have been the ultimate victor of the Clan Invasion.
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Are there many that are deadset against the remnants of Clan Ghost Bear though?
I mean this as a legitimate question, not sarcasm. My exposure to the lore has been limited, but I haven't seen anything to suggest there are.
Honestly, coming fresh into the universe like I have, I find it weird that there's even still considered a distinction between 'Native Rasalhague-ians' and 'Clan Ghost Bear'.
The impression I get from Dominions Divided of the Rasalhague Dominion is that the current nation is so far removed from it's constituent parts that both of those terms don't really mean anything.
The Clan Ghost Bear element of the Rasalhague Dominion seems to be so far divorced from what Clans were that, in purely my humble opinion, it shouldn't really be considered a Clan any more.
It's just the nation's military apparatus.
Likewise, the current Rasalhague population seems to be so intermixed with that of the former Clan Ghost Bear that the concept of 'a Native Rasalhague' population being separate from a 'Clan Ghost Bear' population just... doesn't seem to be a 'thing'.
I feel like this is a good analogy.
Are there many against the Bears? I would say no, there are some, as there are some against any other group in any society, Motstånd is pretty much persona non grata at the moment after some of their actions.
DD and The Powers That Be (TPTB) are trying to remove that distinction, they are both Rasalhagueians and Ghost Bears, DD goes so far as to say Ghost Bear descendants and active Ghost Bear warriors are fine with being called that, and most Rasalhagueians and Ghost Bear descendants and warriors are fine with also being called Ghost Bears too, there is now no difference, baring in-universe prejudices (True born/Free born mostly) and the chances of internal conflict is a good story beat, that every faction should have, and it's a good point for people to self reflect over imho.
IIRC even official sources, in and out of universe, put the RD as a Representative Democracy with Clan Trappings.
The people are intermixed on all levels, the only separation is some high security military installations, but the personnel assigned there are most likely mixed anyway.
A thing that most "Rasalhague for Rasalhague" people miss out it is that the FRR chose to elect Ragnar Magnusson as their First Prince, while he was a Clanner in the Ghost Bear Dominion, the FRR didn't give a hoot about who someone was with as long as they were one of us and by the time of the Dominion the Bears were one of us. They also don't mention that Christian Månsdottir was born and raised a Lyran and was in the LCAF.
(IIRC there doesn't seem to be any characters of mixed heritage though, but i haven't read much Shrapnel so there could be some in the stories in there or I forgot or missed something in DD, it would be a good person of interest to show that the divide wasn't cultural but "Stand together or Stand alone" as a state entity, both being aspects of both cultures, which seems to be the crux of the RD section of DD. Also a good way to show the evolving culture, even if it's a in-universe story, "Free born child of Elemental decent, protects friends from bullies and then go on adventures together" kinda thing, use that gentle giant trope TPTB, it's been a while since we've been called "Care Bears" :cheesy: )
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The Clan problem is that their system was inherently inferior to anything they ran up against, including that of the Oberon Confederation. Clan Wolverine may have been the ultimate victor of the Clan Invasion.
One glance at lore tells us that this is definitely not the case
We know that any time a Clan would get off it's honorable posterior and started putting in the work they were able to provide levels of food security, healthcare, education, infrastructure, safety and sometimes even personal freedoms (yes!) that places like Combine or CapCon can't even begin to comprehend
I sure as hell would not want to be a female in Combine (unless my name would be Yori) among many other things
And as for Periphery nations just the simple act of putting an end to pirate threat was often enough to win people over
Only thing Clans had to offer that was capable of making Combine look acceptable were Smoke Jaguars, swap them with Wolves or Bears (hell, swap them with freaking Falcons) and Combine locals would start asking themselves "why aren't we switching sides exactly?"
Even Mongol Falcons who were comically brutal invaders still treated people in their territory with what amounts to kiddy gloves compared to Liaos and Kuritans
This is the problem with all these Sphere vs Clan discussions, you have to specify which Clan and which part of Sphere because Capelans and Lyrans are two extremely different things
(To say nothing of chasm of difference between something like Canopus and Tortuga)
Same goes for Clans, especially in current date
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You are going to hate the lore on why Clan Wolverine was annihilated...
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And Amaris...
The whole "Cameron" thing and all...
Straight out hacked that family up, but good... :evil:
TT
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I sure as hell would not want to be a female in Combine (unless my name would be Yori) among many other things
Why? The women in the Combine can also be warriors, business owners or even rulers (I think the Combine had more female rulers then the oh so liberal Federated Suns)
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You are going to hate the lore on why Clan Wolverine was annihilated...
Unless they added something new last week I doubt it
Also, no matter what happened to Wolverines it still doesn't change the fact that 2/5 of Successor States fail to cut it
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We know that any time a Clan would get off it's honorable posterior and started putting in the work they were able to provide levels of food security, healthcare, education, infrastructure, safety and sometimes even personal freedoms (yes!) that places like Combine or CapCon can't even begin to comprehend
I would love a specific clan and time for this. Because the best treatment of civilians I can recall from a. Clan is the Hell’s Horses’ approach of suzerainty. CGB/GBD/RasDom wasn’t even much better than a junta until dark ages.
Even Mongol Falcons who were comically brutal invaders still treated people in their territory with what amounts to kiddy gloves compared to Liaos and Kuritans
Malvina repeatedly and consistently slaughtered civilians. Her leadership was so brutal that the moment falcons couldn’t enforce their rule with military might, the entire nation collapsed basically in days. Planets liberated from falcons by literally anyone else saw civilians flock to them. Even the horses.
She blew up a city. Not because it was a threat, but because “****** you, that’s why.” Used nukes.
There’s legit complaints about the DC and CC cultures, but Dark Age Falcons were Saturday morning cartoon levels of needlessly stupid, cruel, and evil. Being literally anyone who wasn’t a full throated Malvina crony would result in suffering and misery
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The Combine still allows ownership of Child Slaves, especially to pay off societies debts, common practice
Marians still capture and sell slaves, daily...
Slavery is still rampant in the Sphere, Clans force Lower Caste members to do things that is necessary for the clan, don't work? Don't eat, loose food credit, starve to deaths.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans#Goods_and_Services (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans#Goods_and_Services)
TT
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I would love a specific clan and time for this. Because the best treatment of civilians I can recall from a. Clan is the Hell’s Horses’ approach of suzerainty. CGB/GBD/RasDom wasn’t even much better than a junta until dark ages. ...
Horses, Bears, Scorpions, Foxes and Ravens can teach different governance classes to CapCon and Combine and not because those Clans are particularly good at it but because those two are so horrifically abysmal
Even back in the Homeworlds some would be able to outperform them in quite a few areas
Cappies and Kuritans are simply the wrong hill to die on in this kind of debate, they are a dynamite lodged in the foundation of the idea of Inner Sphere moral high ground
My suggestion is to specify an Inner Sphere state (and one which is neither of these two) next time such debate is attempted, nobody will argue with you if you say that Lyrans have superior civil governance system
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Why? The women in the Combine can also be warriors, business owners or even rulers (I think the Combine had more female rulers then the oh so liberal Federated Suns)
In the Federated Suns, if you come from a poor planet in the backwaters and can't find work or save money from said work to go to a planet with a better economy, you can join the military, or you are free to starve to death. Choices like that really aren't liberal.
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or you are free to starve to death
I'm reminded of the immortal words of Janis Joplin. Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
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Why? The women in the Combine can also be warriors, business owners or even rulers (I think the Combine had more female rulers then the oh so liberal Federated Suns)
you would be wrong. DC has only had 2 female cordinators, the first being Siriwan McAllister-Kurita who was always erefered to as a "brevert cordinator" because the nobility wouldn't accept a female cordinator, and Yori.
Meanwhile, discounting Yvvone and Katherine, the FS has had 3 women as first prince, and a 4th occupied the presidancy before the FS became a formal Principality.
these women rulers are
Marie Davion
Ellen Davion
Sarah Davion
Melissa Davion
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Horses, Bears, Scorpions, Foxes and Ravens can teach different governance classes to CapCon and Combine and not because those Clans are particularly good at it but because those two are so horrifically abysmal
Even back in the Homeworlds some would be able to outperform them in quite a few areas
Cappies and Kuritans are simply the wrong hill to die on in this kind of debate, they are a dynamite lodged in the foundation of the idea of Inner Sphere moral high ground
I firmly believe that the Venn diagram of "how they govern their people" between the CapCon, the DracCom and the Clans would have a lot of overlap.
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I firmly believe that the Venn diagram of "how they govern their people" between the CapCon, the DracCom and the Clans would have a lot of overlap.
Everyone's Venn diagram would have overlap, this is feudal setting but it doesn't change the fact that those Clans still come off smelling like roses in comparison to Dracs and Cappies without even trying
Example: Hell's Horses swallowed their pride in order to stop Falcons from causing famine in their OZ. They didn't need to do that. Lord knows not a single Clan member would have skipped a latte let alone a meal. But they still went ahead and did it to no small personal pain in the derriere. I'd love to see Kuritans swallow their pride for anyone
And I can't believe that Hell's Horses fans aren't advertising this event more, this is some hero origin story material right here
Like I said, without even trying
And there's another point I've been meaning to mention: capacity for change. These Clans have shown that they can better themselves when opportunity presents itself whether by intent or by accident. On the worst day they at least make an effort to not make things worse. Kuritans and Cappies on the other hand have been monolithic unchanging embodiments of tyranny, oppression and terror throughout centuries (coming up on millennia) and across hundreds of planets and countless billions of victims.
Which ties in nicely back to the topic of the tread: Rasalhague Dominion and more specifically their upcoming war with the Combine.
People keep saying that this war is wrong. It's not.
Hasty? Perhaps. Impulsive? Quite likely. Poorly planned? Possibly.
But wrong? Absolutely not because a war against Draconis Combine can't be wrong. (They just repeated Kentares with Nova Cats for Pete's sake)
Long story short, go Rasalhague Dominion!!!
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And on the flip side, the Jaguars once suffered a famine after a crop blight and decided that the best way to deal with it was killing a bunch of their lower caste people.
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Everyone's Venn diagram would have overlap, this is feudal setting but it doesn't change the fact that those Clans still come off smelling like roses in comparison to Dracs and Cappies without even trying
Not really, no. The Clans have a caste system just like the Cappies and Dracs, and go a step farther with their eugenically-arranged marriages; the Bears are the only Clan we know of that actually stopped that practice. The Clans are also all basically rule by military junta and are quick to clamp down on internal dissent, though to be fair, the Bears and Scorpions have given their civilians oversight of their toumans.
The Ravens flat-out rule over the Outworlders as their overlords (and let's not forget, also wiped out billions of people on Galedon over bad intelligence), the Horses don't deal with their occupied population at all (much to their detriment as we're learning), the Bears just had a complete and total failure of governance, the Scorpions got pleeeeeeenty of civilian blood on their hands during their conquest of Nueva Castile (especially the Umayyads), and as far as we know, anyone who's not a warrior or a merchant in the Foxes only has a life of supporting the massive Fox export industry to look forward to.
I'm not saying that the Combine and the CapCon aren't bastions of human rights violations for centuries themselves, because they certainly are. I'm just saying that the Clans have plenty of overlap with them both, to varying degrees.
Example: Hell's Horses swallowed their pride in order to stop Falcons from causing famine in their OZ. They didn't need to do that. Lord knows not a single Clan member would have skipped a latte let alone a meal. But they still went ahead and did it to no small personal pain in the derriere. I'd love to see Kuritans swallow their pride for anyone
And I can't believe that Hell's Horses fans aren't advertising this event more, this is some hero origin story material right here
Like I said, without even trying
Because it's not hero origin story material, LOL. Gottfried Amirault let another Clan Khan punk him into joining her genocidal campaign, and that was after Malvina murdered his Blood-kinsman and stole his Galaxy. As a result, another Galaxy ended up as collateral damage during an orbital bombardment, and the Horses got exactly nothing out of their participation in the Golden Ordun. The Horses themselves, in canon, view that entire affair exactly like this, and it was just one of many, many poor decisions Gottfried Amirault was responsible for during his reign.
And there's another point I've been meaning to mention: capacity for change. These Clans have shown that they can better themselves when opportunity presents itself whether by intent or by accident. On the worst day they at least make an effort to not make things worse. Kuritans and Cappies on the other hand have been monolithic unchanging embodiments of tyranny, oppression and terror throughout centuries (coming up on millennia) and across hundreds of planets and countless billions of victims.
That's fair, but as the saying goes, if it ain't broke...
The Clans that changed did so because circumstances humbled them and they were forced to change. They didn't do it out of some sense of altruism, not even the Bears. The Clans were forced to adapt to life outside of the Kerensky Cluster/Pentagon and everything that resulted from the invasion of the Inner Sphere to the Jihad to the Wars of Reaving to the Dark Age... and not all of them were able to do so.
I can't really speak on the Combine, but the CapCon certainly showed the ability to change for the better with the Xin Sheng reforms, especially with the abolishment of Servitor slavery and giving them an easier path to citizenship.
(They just repeated Kentares with Nova Cats for Pete's sake)
You say that like the Dominion wouldn't exterminate the Nova Cats themselves if they'd been able to do so (and even participated a bit at the tail end of the Nova Cats' destruction). Let's not act like they're above doing what the Combine did.
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And on the flip side, the Jaguars once suffered a famine after a crop blight and decided that the best way to deal with it was killing a bunch of their lower caste people.
and where loudly condemned for it by other clans.
Not really, no. The Clans have their own extremely dehumanizing traits (caste system, forced eugenics-based marriage/procreation, promoting through fisticuffs instead of ability to do the job, divorcing their warrior caste of normal human social interaction), none of which either the CapCon or DracCom engage in. They're all in the gutter together, sorry.
except the Capellans HAVE a caste system Tassa.
And the Warrior houses aren't, practically speaking, that differant from mini clans.
But let's face it, comparing the CapCon, Dracs and clans to each other is REALLY an excerise in "What particular brand of horrific fascism do I think is best?"
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except the Capellans HAVE a caste system Tassa.
Oh, I didn't mean to include that there. Let me edit to clear up the confusion there.
And the Warrior houses aren't, practically speaking, that differant from mini clans.
That's very true. But the Warrior Houses also aren't running the show, either. (Not that leaders like Kalvin, Max, Romano or Daoshen are necessarily an improvement over that fact, lol.)
But let's face it, comparing the CapCon, Dracs and clans to each other is REALLY an excerise in "What particular brand of horrific fascism do I think is best?"
Absolutely, and that was my point. They've got more in common that some would care to admit.
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you would be wrong. DC has only had 2 female cordinators, the first being Siriwan McAllister-Kurita who was always erefered to as a "brevert cordinator" because the nobility wouldn't accept a female cordinator, and Yori.
Meanwhile, discounting Yvvone and Katherine, the FS has had 3 women as first prince, and a 4th occupied the presidancy before the FS became a formal Principality.
these women rulers are
Marie Davion
Ellen Davion
Sarah Davion
Melissa Davion
Ok fair point but you gloss over Sanethia Kurita the Coordinator who took over from Leonard and presided over a stable period.
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The worst of modern Draconis Combine governance came under the Hohiro who preceded Takashi Kurita. It was also the closest that realm ever came to Clan bad governance. It is fair to say that they are not much better. As for the Confederation, I am avoiding speaking about their governing model because of a modern politics issue.
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Not really, no. The Clans have a caste system just like the Cappies and Dracs, and go a step farther with their eugenically-arranged marriages; the Bears are the only Clan we know of that actually stopped that practice. The Clans are also all basically rule by military junta and are quick to clamp down on internal dissent, though to be fair, the Bears and Scorpions have given their civilians oversight of their toumans.
The Ravens flat-out rule over the Outworlders as their overlords (and let's not forget, also wiped out billions of people on Galedon over bad intelligence), the Horses don't deal with their occupied population at all (much to their detriment as we're learning), the Bears just had a complete and total failure of governance, the Scorpions got pleeeeeeenty of civilian blood on their hands during their conquest of Nueva Castile (especially the Umayyads), and as far as we know, anyone who's not a warrior or a merchant in the Foxes only has a life of supporting the massive Fox export industry to look forward to.
I'm not saying that the Combine and the CapCon aren't bastions of human rights violations for centuries themselves, because they certainly are. I'm just saying that the Clans have plenty of overlap with them both, to varying degrees.
We know that eugenically arranged marriages have amounted to simply rubber stamping marriage permits pretty much since Nikky K suffered unfortunate X-ray machine accident (hell, maybe even before?)
Galadeon was a colossal screw up but everything else you listed have been steps in the process, and that process is something Kuritans and Cappies simply don't have
And even with all that stuff those Clans still end up looking better in comparison while still working on themselves (more about motives below)
We know for example that enough Outworlders apply to join the Clan each year that Raven Alliance has established administrative procedures for that and that they freely allow Clan members to leave the same way
This tells us that things are smoother than they look on the surface
And every single nation in BattleTech is a military dictatorship, this is a rule not an exception
DISCLAIMER JUST IN CASE BECAUSE INTERNET: I'm talking about stuff in universe, nothing from BattleTech should fly in real life and stuff that does fly is obviously bad and shouldn't be happening
Because it's not hero origin story material, LOL. Gottfried Amirault let another Clan Khan punk him into joining her genocidal campaign, and that was after Malvina murdered his Blood-kinsman and stole his Galaxy. As a result, another Galaxy ended up as collateral damage during an orbital bombardment, and the Horses got exactly nothing out of their participation in the Golden Ordun. The Horses themselves, in canon, view that entire affair exactly like this, and it was just one of many, many poor decisions Gottfried Amirault was responsible for during his reign.
But it doesn't change the fact that they went ahead and prevented that famine
Even with all the mess afterwards that simple fact still remains
And when screw ups happened they didn't go and blame people whom they saved from famine for it, they correctly looked for the source of the problem in-house
No matter how clumsily it's done it's done nonetheless
Ask good people of Csesztreg both Spheroids and Clan if they would prefer to have Kuritans or Cappies come and run the show and the answer you would get would be unanimous: "HELL NO!!! WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM, MAN? ARE YOU FREAKING CRAZY?!?!??!"
That's fair, but as the saying goes, if it ain't broke...
The Clans that changed did so because circumstances humbled them and they were forced to change. They didn't do it out of some sense of altruism, not even the Bears. The Clans were forced to adapt to life outside of the Kerensky Cluster/Pentagon and everything that resulted from the invasion of the Inner Sphere to the Jihad to the Wars of Reaving to the Dark Age... and not all of them were able to do so.
I can't really speak on the Combine, but the CapCon certainly showed the ability to change for the better with the Xin Sheng reforms, especially with the abolishment of Servitor slavery and giving them an easier path to citizenship.
Nations rarely change out of altruism and in majority of the cases it's out of necessity
This isn't BattleTech issue, it's simply art imitating life
But those Clans did change, while Kuritans and Capelans remained fully convinced of their perfection and infallibility (mountains of corpses throughout centuries be damned) those Clans went ahead and changed
Regardless of how they did it and how they explained it to others and themselves they simply did it
You say that like the Dominion wouldn't exterminate the Nova Cats themselves if they'd been able to do so (and even participated a bit at the tail end of the Nova Cats' destruction). Let's not act like they're above doing what the Combine did.
Dominion would have done it
But it was still Draconis Combine who actually did it in the end (funny how it keeps happening to them)
And they did it far more horrifically than anyone could have imagined. Dominion (and even Kuritans who did Kentares) would at least opt for doing it quickly
Instead every single Nova Cat man, woman and child were sterilized and sent to die in slavery
Do we really need to go into specifics of why someone would want a sterilized child slave or why would they create one in the first place?
There is evil and then there is sick evil
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DISCLAIMER JUST IN CASE BECAUSE INTERNET: I'm talking about stuff in universe, nothing from BattleTech should fly in real life and stuff that does fly is obviously bad and shouldn't be happening
Agreed. Most nations in Battletech have awful track record. Part of that is everyone being almost unrealistically helps drive revenge plots and excuses for war.
When I’m arguing moral high ground in the setting, it has to be relative.
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And every single nation in BattleTech is a military dictatorship, this is a rule not an exception
Double post. Sorry. But no. Monarchies are not inherently a military dictatorship.
Now, let’s reword it to “And every single nation in BattleTech is a military dictatorship ruled by a protected class, this is a rule not an exception”
That’s a lot closer, but not correct.
Republic is an exception. It was a (holy crap so potentially easily corruptible) meritocracy where anyone could theoretically become Exarch. That we didn’t see a non military one was more that there were only three Exarchs before it was destroyed.
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Interestingly enough, there were two older threads, one titled The Capellans are Not Evil, and the other The Draconis Combine is Evil. In them it was astutely noted that Capellan apologists spoke in character when defending their realm.
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Arguing stuff in character is a lot of fun sometimes just to see how far it goes.
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Two Death Commandos ponder this. (http://youtu.be/VImnpErdDzA)
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Double post. Sorry. But no. Monarchies are not inherently a military dictatorship.
Now, let’s reword it to “And every single nation in BattleTech is a military dictatorship ruled by a protected class, this is a rule not an exception”
That’s a lot closer, but not correct.
Republic is an exception. It was a (holy crap so potentially easily corruptible) meritocracy where anyone could theoretically become Exarch. That we didn’t see a non military one was more that there were only three Exarchs before it was destroyed.
The five major Houses are all essentially autocratic states. Three of them have democratic window dressing, but if you read carefully, the FS, FWL, and LC all neutered their representative bodies long ago, vesting any real power in their Prince, Captain-General, or Archon. The CC and DC just never pretended or aspired to democratic norms.
The major difference between the FS, FWL, and LC on the one hand and the CC and DC on the other is human rights/personal rights/liberties. The former guarantee them at some level, while they have to be earned in the CC and the DC has no such protections.
Ironically, the Clans (and the old FRR) are the best practitioners of democracy in the setting. If you read C:WoK, direct democracy is practiced at every level of Clan society from warrior councils to the lowest caste councils. But like the CC, personal rights are not guaranteed but must be earned and can be easily overridden by warrior caste “justice”.
The canon sources are very conflicted regarding the degree to which the invading clans have imposed their system on their Spheroid populations. Some of this is due to variations between Clans, but even within the same Clan, you get examples of pure hands-off behavior where the Clanners live entirely apart from their Spheroid charges alongside examples of brutal subjugation. Like so many things in the setting, it seems driven by the needs of the plot at hand rather than any coherent and consistent development.
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Clans are military dictatorships where the military dictates all initiatives nation wide. Yes, lower levels can engage in democratic process, but only until the military says otherwise. You cannot have a non-military leader, and no civilian leader has a built in lever to challenge a Khan’s orders.
Let’s not pretend clans are actually good rulers or are in any way democracies. They just look less terrible compared to some parts of the setting.
Like so many things in the setting, it seems driven by the needs of the plot at hand rather than any coherent and consistent development.
WHAAAAAAAAAAT!?!?!
But also, yes
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Clans are military dictatorships where the military dictates all initiatives nation wide. Yes, lower levels can engage in democratic process, but only until the military says otherwise. You cannot have a non-military leader, and no civilian leader has a built in lever to challenge a Khan’s orders.
Let’s not pretend clans are actually good rulers or are in any way democracies. They just look less terrible compared to some parts of the setting.
Hey, let's back it a bit here. Absolutely nobody is saying that Clans are democracies. You can put that on a billboard.
While there are some occurrences of democratic processes across this setting in both IS states and Clans there are no places with democratic governance at least not by any real life standard.
People who run the show are not called ministers and representatives, they are called Archons, Khans, Princes, Coordinators, etc...
What those people say goes. No and, if or but.
Now what I have been trying to say all this time it that if somehow someone managed to make a list based on ranking of general quality of political systems and nations in this setting the Clans would not be bunched up together on that list somewhere at the bottom, especially not in current date when they became so different from each other.
They would instead be sprinkled around evenly on that list from upper part to lower one.
And Cappies and Kuritans would definitely be somewhere on the bottom section of that list, the baggage with those two is simply massive.
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Depends on how we define bottom or upper list. Bewcause in some terms the Clans are clearly the bottom. Let's take social mobility: when you are assigned to a caste you are fixed. Neither up but also neither down (unless you screw up royally from what I understand)
Now in the IS you have that option. Even in the Combine or the Confederation you can rise up from your station. And that is probably what makes the Clans so stagnant. They had decades of "peace" but they didn't develop beyond a slight upgrade of the Star League in terms of technology while their living conditions remain that of a Periphery nation or hinterlands of Is nations. Meanwhile it took the IS only a couple of years to replicate every weapon the Clans had (though not copy them to a T).
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Depends on how we define bottom or upper list. Bewcause in some terms the Clans are clearly the bottom. Let's take social mobility: when you are assigned to a caste you are fixed. Neither up but also neither down (unless you screw up royally from what I understand)
Some clans allow for interclass mobility between generations. They have whole Freeborn sibcos feeding into higher rungs of their society. It's not a paragon of social mobility.... But the BTU, a setting with heredity and nobility, I think that any social mobility in any faction is probably the exception rather than the rule.
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Clans are military dictatorships where the military dictates all initiatives nation wide. Yes, lower levels can engage in democratic process, but only until the military says otherwise. You cannot have a non-military leader, and no civilian leader has a built in lever to challenge a Khan’s orders.
There are Clan civilian caste leaders, specifically Scientist Generals, Merchant Factors, Master Technicians, and Senior Laborers. They each run a Science Council, Merchant Conclave, Technician Guild, or Laborer Assembly that votes on decisions, as well as the assemblies that get things done within each Clan. While they’re not going to dictate to the warrior caste where to invade next, they’re extremely powerful individuals that hold the remaining balance of power within each Clan, actually run each Clan’s day-to-day affairs, and probably do steer their Clan’s war/trial plans to some degree with requests to each Clan Council for resources. They, along with the votes of each Clan (Warrior Caste) Council — and just plain old trials — serve as major brakes on the powers of the Khans.
Per C:WoK, p. 54:
[Each] Clan Council can debate almost any issue concerning the Clan, but tends to limit discussion to military or general policy matters. Like the Grand Council, [each] Clan Council takes on investigations and judgements, but the needs of governing a Clan rather than determining overall policy results in a much higher workload. To lighten it, Council members often delegate “lesser” non-military issues, particularly those relating to infrastructure and economics — to an appropriate group among the civilian castes. That group passes its findings to the Clan Council, whose members debate the report and accept or reject its recommendations as they see fit. Though the warriors hold the reins of power, they often simply rubber-stamp civilian caste suggestions. Different Clans work in different ways and associate at different levels with the councils of their civilian castes but the basic principle holds true.
p. 59:
The most senior members of the civilian castes are extremely powerful, with authority rivaling that of the Khans. In practice, the heads of the technician and laborer castes wield little practical authority, while the heads of the scientist and merchant castes are generally too involved in their own power politics to meddle in the affairs of the Clan. With the exception of the Diamond Shark merchant caste, and rumors about the head of the Jade Falcon scientists, I know of no systemic abuse of power by the head of a civilian caste. The threat of bloody reprisals from the warriors keeps them in line. However, the potential for a revolt by the masses is real, prompting even the Clan Council to make concessions when necessary (though they would never call them that, preferring to term them “rewards for service” or “inducements to enhance performance”).
Administrators are granted considerable leeway in accomplishing their duties. Gathering in multi-caste councils known as assemblies (the exact title of each varies), they form a decentralized government well-suited to the Clan way of life.
Let’s not pretend clans are actually good rulers or are in any way democracies. They just look less terrible compared to some parts of the setting.
I’m used to living in a modern, liberal democracy with free markets and certain liberties/human rights. If I was magically turned into a minor NPC in the BT setting, there are certain Clans that I would rather be dropped into over certain Spheroid states, e.g., Bears, Fox/Sharks, Wolf Clan pre-War of Refusal, etc. over CC or DC at pretty much any time. And there are certain Houses that I would rather be dropped into over certain Clans, e.g., FS, FWL, LC at pretty much anytime over the Jags, Malvina’s Falcons, or Reaving Vipers.
Hey, let's back it a bit here. Absolutely nobody is saying that Clans are democracies. You can put that on a billboard.
While there are some occurrences of democratic processes across this setting in both IS states and Clans there are no places with democratic governance at least not by any real life standard.
I’ll say it. The Clans practice direct democracy within each Clan and caste. If they were, the Houses are no longer democracies. The Clans vote for their caste leaders at all levels (from Khan on down) and debate decisions and policy within councils and assemblies. House leadership is decided by inheritance (that’s why they’re called Houses), not votes, and they either lack democratically elected representatives or defenestrated the governing powers of those representative bodies long ago.
That said, democracies can turn into fascist, war-mongering mobs and feudal monarchies can create peace-loving, enlightened, benign dictators. There are examples of each on both sides of the Clan/House divide.
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Now what I have been trying to say all this time it that if somehow someone managed to make a list based on ranking of general quality of political systems and nations in this setting the Clans would not be bunched up together on that list somewhere at the bottom, especially not in current date when they became so different from each other.
They would instead be sprinkled around evenly on that list from upper part to lower one.
And Cappies and Kuritans would definitely be somewhere on the bottom section of that list, the baggage with those two is simply massive.
You know, I thought about this some more and I can agree with all of this.
The canon sources are very conflicted regarding the degree to which the invading clans have imposed their system on their Spheroid populations. Some of this is due to variations between Clans, but even within the same Clan, you get examples of pure hands-off behavior where the Clanners live entirely apart from their Spheroid charges alongside examples of brutal subjugation. Like so many things in the setting, it seems driven by the needs of the plot at hand rather than any coherent and consistent development.
Agreed, and besides the glaring example of the RasDom in DD, I noticed this with the Ravens and Horses: ER3145 tells us that only 35% of Outworlders even bothered to vote on the Alliance Charter but another source describes the vote as "contentious" and we saw a few planets actually leave the Alliance over it. Then we have the Horses in A Rending of Falcons working alongside/competing in sports with their lower castes, but the new novel shows the Horses shocked that Peter Cobb would work alongside a tech in maintaining his Mech. And I'm sure there are more examples out there, too.
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Wasn't the average lifespan of a lower-caste Clanner around 55 years due to the Clans not allocating medical care or food to anyone who can't work? And in one of the Twilight of the Clans novels, a Ghost Bear bondsman was shocked at A) the amount of safety equipment allocated to techs on the ship and B) that when an accident occurred that badly injured a worker, it was treated as an emergency with work being halted in the area and EMTs being immediately summoned to save the injured worker's life. And that was a Ghost Bear-we-treat-our-lower-castes-as-family character.
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Clan Labor Caste lifespans are abysmally low. The Dark Caste is unmonitored, though actively hunted for elimination. What percentage of the Dark Caste is made up of people who genuinely cannot survive in the Clan context who are simply trying to scrape a living outside of it?
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Those that want to eat...
No work, no food
No food, no eat, starve
Steal, eat
Steal, captured = death or worse
Or
Steal + escape = Dark Caste
TT
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You can work, yet still not fit into Clan Society or its expectations for you.
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Wasn't the average lifespan of a lower-caste Clanner around 55 years due to the Clans not allocating medical care or food to anyone who can't work?
Clan Labor Caste lifespans are abysmally low.
Average life expectancies from C:WoK, p. 37:
Warrior 45y
Scientist 80y
Technician 63y
Merchant 72y
Laborer 58y
This actually isn’t much different from life expectancy differentials between white collar and blue collar workers in modern economies today. For example, I’m looking at a 1996 study from Finland which states that average life expectancy for white collar was 74y vice 63y for blue collar. The differential was even greater for executives at the highest level vice the most unskilled laborers at the bottom.
Regarding aging, what C:WoK, p. 59 actually says is “The Clans find tasks suitable to the skills of older people,” so if a laborer can no longer swing a hammer or lift boxes, they’ll become responsible for filing paperwork or checking inventory instead. No one is abandoned unless they refuse to work, and then in that case “you starve” (or join the Dark Caste).
What percentage of the Dark Caste is made up of people who genuinely cannot survive in the Clan context who are simply trying to scrape a living outside of it?
This is a good question when it comes to run-of-the-mill mental illnesses, like depression, that would keep someone from working. At first glance, these folks would presumably have no place in Clan society. But I think that reflects the fact that a wargame, RPG, or other fictional universe isn’t going to spend much time detailing how societies cope with mental illnesses unless they’re wildly criminally insane (like any number of Batman antagonists) or rank among the leadership (Malvina, Maximillian, Caleb, etc.). I don’t recall House sourcebooks getting into that topic, for example, either.
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I agree that the wargame factor does complicate things, but in the case of the Free Worlds League for example, there would probably be a cocktail mix of involvement from local level, planetary level, provincial level, and the League Department of Human Services. Cultural demands would require such complexity, as does the League's federalist nature (The League practices federalism over devolution).
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Wasn't the average lifespan of a lower-caste Clanner around 55 years due to the Clans not allocating medical care or food to anyone who can't work? And in one of the Twilight of the Clans novels, a Ghost Bear bondsman was shocked at A) the amount of safety equipment allocated to techs on the ship and B) that when an accident occurred that badly injured a worker, it was treated as an emergency with work being halted in the area and EMTs being immediately summoned to save the injured worker's life. And that was a Ghost Bear-we-treat-our-lower-castes-as-family character.
The Warriors are not treated any better. Everyone is totally disposable. Yes, they will throw more med tech at a Warrior, but their life expectancy is in the 30s. Yes the Warriors are at the top of the tree, but it is a very short tree.
This is where retirement is such a huge deal. It poses the idea of getting out on honorable terms. How you survive is a whole different issue, but the option is suddenly there.
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On the disposability of warriors (Within the context of the source for the age ranges), there is a historic culture within the Clans to avoid age in the warrior caste. If you did not reach a position of prestige, you might just seek a Hunchback IIC to ensure you at least died in a mech rather than with a rifle or worse in bed. The warrior culture was built on an early grave, while the mechwarrior was at their quickest.
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PS If there has been a misunderstanding within this regard, sometimes I post statements that may be obvious or possibly even condescending to some readers because I assume that there is a greater audience who may be missing context. In a straight conversation with many of the members here alone I would be less pleonastic.
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After you posted this morning I was reminded of those dystopic movies where everyone is young with the occasional oldie because bad luck is going to kill you by thirty. Minus the grime, that is the Clans. The founders came through a war where you are surrounded by youth because everyone is dead by 25. You flee to death worlds where touching grass means you are dead by 30. Low lifespan isn't an ideal. Rather it is normalised to the point you don't build in safety features because the blood limpet behind the door will get you anyway. Yeah there is a culture of youth for the Warriors, but no one is going to be old anyway because eventually you roll box cars. Go read anything to do with WW2 bomber crews. Seriously fatalistic.
Now maybe by 3000 the Homeworlds are civilised enough to ease up on the death cult and improve the utilisation of those expensive meatbags... oh... I mean people, but by now it is what you do. Why would you think you can do better? The war isn't over.
Dark, but not unprecedented.
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The problem is that it's almost 100% down only to Clan mentality. The Star League had incredibly technology for terraforming planets but the Clans barely used it. Same goes for their medical tech- it's stated many times that the Clans have medical technology and capability that far outstrips what the Inner Sphere does. They have the ability to have societies where everyone lives to 150 on luxurious garden worlds. But they don't want to bother with that because their society is built 100% around wearing funny hats and fighting with people who wear different funny hats, and there's no incentive to actually try to build stuff up when it's easier to just fight your neighbor for what they've got even though you could have more than enough for both of you if you were willing to try. No one is willing to try.
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I'm reminded of the immortal words of Janis Joplin. Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
She also once said loudly into a microphone to great applause "It's all the same ^@$@#% day, man". FWIW.
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Personally I look forward to 3200 when the Rasalhague Confederacy controls vast swaths of the inner sphere, from the glorious Jungles on sian to the shining seas of Alshain.
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The problem is that it's almost 100% down only to Clan mentality. The Star League had incredibly technology for terraforming planets but the Clans barely used it. Same goes for their medical tech- it's stated many times that the Clans have medical technology and capability that far outstrips what the Inner Sphere does. They have the ability to have societies where everyone lives to 150 on luxurious garden worlds. But they don't want to bother with that because their society is built 100% around wearing funny hats and fighting with people who wear different funny hats, and there's no incentive to actually try to build stuff up when it's easier to just fight your neighbor for what they've got even though you could have more than enough for both of you if you were willing to try. No one is willing to try.
I wouldn't say that the Clans don't use the terraforming tech they inherited. I get the impression they use "just enough" as dictated by Nicolas Kerensky. The Clans developed a very Spartan life and in terms of average prosperity it shows.
As someone else saids the Hunback IIC is a good example: we are not wasting useless warriors we give them a somewhat worthy death and it also might benefit the whole Clan. The Klondike sourcebook also gave a hint: the average age of Clan warriors declined from Klondike onwards until it stopped in the mid 20's. In a society that is basically constant at war (well trials) a warrior doesn't grow old. Which also leads to the mindset of "Dying in battle is preferred" which is anathema to Is soldiers who prefer to leave a war alive and unscathed because they have something to return to (not to mention retreat to fight back another day)
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Re: terraforming capabilities.
Most of the Clans are either in a state of war or preparing for the next war. That means totally different infrastructure than terraforming equipment on the scale needed to actually get results in a couple of centuries. So it's understandable why they haven't done any of that in the IS. Even the Bears are more concerned with making sure they have the military advantage than they are with improving worlds environmentally. One is much faster, with much more immediate results. (Although I agree that the long run choice of improving your worlds is a better plan, it requires a "Pax Star League" to accomplish on the grand scale.)
Now in the Homeworlds, I can see what MLO4H is saying.
Also. On one hand, yes those planets are said to be 95% planetary junk that they had to make due with. A few exceptions were places like Strana Mechty and perhaps York or Vinton with their 100% self sufficiency ratings. Other than that, the worlds are often said to be so poor that maybe two or even three centuries would not be long enough to make them into garden worlds.
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I doubt the Clans inherited terraforming technology. The systems involved were huge. We’re talking about solar shades that could throw Venus into darkness and solar concentrators capable of controlling planetary weather from the couple existing canon examples. Those were probably not within the capabilities of the Exodus fleet to bring with them and certainly not priority payloads even if they were. Moreover, terraforming was Hegemony technology, not SLDF technology. I don’t know who, but it would have been other Star League departments and corporations that performed terraforming and possessed the expertise. The SLDF presumably had no experience with it. The SLDF could move a mountain or two (Brian Castles/Caches). I don’t recall any evidence they could move atmospheres/oceans/planets.
On medical technology, the Clans use it, but they use it to replace and grow their population exponentially — all the test-downs from the iron wombs — rather than maintain the health of centenarians. I’m not saying that exactly fits with our moral compass, but I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the Clans are not exploiting their medical tech. They are, just with a different emphasis than how we would likely exploit it.
As an aside, I’ve heard from health insurers that they’d rather pay for expensive and risky measures to save premature newborns over the very elderly because the premies have an entire healthy life ahead of them if those procedures work while similarly expensive and risky measures may only buy the very elderly a few more months. So among those who deal day-to-day with limited but high-tech medical resources like the Clans, they come to similar conclusions — so the Clanners may not be so alien in this regard as we reflexively think.
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Perhpas we are straying a bit too far from the OT but Kerensky took quite a few scientists with him. While you are correct that the SLDf didn't have the technology of the Department of Mega Engineering the Klondike sourcebook make it sound as if they had at least some tech to keep the deadly enviroments of the planets in check. Plus they took entire databases of tech with them. I bet they also contained at least basic terraforming technology. Also worth of note: when Nicolas withdrew to Strana Mechty it is noted that the war the SLDF-in-Exile waged, destroyed technology that kept the nature of the Pentagon worlds in check which in turn led to more deaths.
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Average life expectancies from C:WoK, p. 37:
Warrior 45y
Scientist 80y
Technician 63y
Merchant 72y
Laborer 58y
This actually isn’t much different from life expectancy differentials between white collar and blue collar workers in modern economies today. For example, I’m looking at a 1996 study from Finland which states that average life expectancy for white collar was 74y vice 63y for blue collar. The differential was even greater for executives at the highest level vice the most unskilled laborers at the bottom. ...
I also can't help but notice a correlation between civilian caste life expectancy and the amount of time they would be spending outdoors vs indoors.
Makes sense considering that a lot of planets in Clan Homeworlds are little better than average 40k death world.
Take Dagda for example: possible career options among other things include operating underwater mining suit on the bottom of the ocean, resource extraction in the upper plains with almost no atmosphere where environment suit malfunction will kill you or sea food processing on one of those floating fishing platforms (no health risks in commercial fishing, eh?)
Even minor workplace accident becomes a disaster when people need equipment just to breathe normally.
This is just one of the average planets. And that's before we factor in all the ''exciting'' local wildlife lurking out there.
Plus how many years did Smoke Jaguars shave off those averages all by themselves?
....
Now maybe by 3000 the Homeworlds are civilised enough to ease up on the death cult and improve the utilisation of those expensive meatbags... oh... I mean people, but by now it is what you do. Why would you think you can do better? The war isn't over.
Dark, but not unprecedented.
Wouldn't call it death cult, more like product of seriously nasty environment.
And we know that several of them eased up significantly in that department, it usually happened the moment they would put down roots somewhere where planet isn't trying to kill you.
Bears were the first, they straight up said: ''Our planets suck, we are moving to nicer planets and anyone trying to butt in will get shot on sight'' way back during Invasion era.
Scorpions boosted life expectancy not just for themselves but for the absorbed locals in the Imperio as well, they even have the whole retirement plan for warrior geezers now (administration or garrison or just something else if they are into it).
Ravens now have free flow of people between Clan and Outworlders so that indicates they sorted themselves out as well.
Sea Foxes are literally made of money these days so I doubt that they would be leaning towards dark thoughts since they are probably too busy deciding between shrimp cocktail and caviar for breakfast, after all you can't work on an empty stomach
Optimism is easier with air, water and food
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That quality of life is being taken seriously by the Clans is but one signal that the Kerensky's vision Clan way has been ending since Clans came into contact with the Inner Sphere.
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Not surprising. It's hard to sell the idea that you should have just enough food to avoid starvation, no entertainment, and no time off when you can see your next door neighbors enjoying a much better standard of living than you do.
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One of my no regrets experiences was helping to set the paths of how the lower castes adapted to the Inner Sphere back around FM3085.
Some we had no choice. The Bears were pretty much set in stone but it set a lower boundary. We finally got to have fun with it later in DD, treating it like a multi generational experience.
The Falcons set the other boundary, allowing us to go full caste, and design a generation of warcrime machines. Which allowed another team to explore what happens when you "free" them in TR.
The Wolves were tricky because Ulric had established the light hand regime, but that was too close to the Bears. Vlad gave us the opportunity to pivot to a halfway point with benign neglect. So keep the lower castes separate from the natives.
The Horses are meant to be learning from the failures of the Invaders so isolation with limited control (better exploitation) of the natives. We do know the black market is in full swing.
The Cats were unfortunate. They don't have full control. So even as they tried to integrate and present themselves as an alternative they would be rejected. In the Protectorate? Do they even have lower castes?
The Ravens were tricky. Positioned at a halfway point later teams made it clear they isolated themselves.
The Sea Foxes are a tricky one. No one knows what they are doing. While the merchants are out and about, who knows what the labourers are allowed to see? While they have fairly good rights we don't know their actual conditions are. Slaving till 50, chilling till 90? We don't know. There has to be a story there.
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Hey, let's back it a bit here. Absolutely nobody is saying that Clans are democracies. You can put that on a billboard.
Absolutely the cannon is saying the Clans are a democracy, TPTB have said they are a democracy, Yellow Beamers who have been TPTB or very close too, have stated they are democracies, what they are not, is the same as modern democracies (One of the issues of debating things from an out of universe perspective is that people tend to compare things to our universe and even to their own country as the only possible way things can be, "I live in X country, so therefore the democracy that exists here is the only type of democracy in the world or even in extremis the only democracy that exists in the world and "if they are not my democracy they're not a democracy" has been a point of view that has shown its ugly head when talking democracy in the Clans before).
The Clans are more akin to a democratized set of unions (The casts), within a union of semi-independent nation-states (The Clans), with the warrior union (Cast) being the most influential, because they have the weapons in a war game, but they are canonically a democracy, in some areas very left-wing, in others very right-wing again by modern standards and those standards change by country as those standards change by clan and cast.
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Also with someone pointing out about test downs and social downwards mobility they missed out the Free Guilds, an alternative to the Dark Caste for those that want to serve the clans but don't always fit in with society.
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It is normal for non-democratic powers to have regular "Democratic" plebiscites without rigging them. It is even normal for such states to require full participation. Like the Clans, they tend to force them to work under norms where they have limited impact and even legitimize the system. They are often very popular amongst the population.
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Absolutely the cannon is saying the Clans are a democracy, TPTB have said they are a democracy, Yellow Beamers who have been TPTB or very close too, have stated they are democracies, what they are not, is the same as modern democracies (One of the issues of debating things from an out of universe perspective is that people tend to compare things to our universe and even to their own country as the only possible way things can be, "I live in X country, so therefore the democracy that exists here is the only type of democracy in the world or even in extremis the only democracy that exists in the world and "if they are not my democracy they're not a democracy" has been a point of view that has shown its ugly head when talking democracy in the Clans before).
The Clans are more akin to a democratized set of unions (The casts), within a union of semi-independent nation-states (The Clans), with the warrior union (Cast) being the most influential, because they have the weapons in a war game, but they are canonically a democracy, in some areas very left-wing, in others very right-wing again by modern standards and those standards change by country as those standards change by clan and cast.
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Also with someone pointing out about test downs and social downwards mobility they missed out the Free Guilds, an alternative to the Dark Caste for those that want to serve the clans but don't always fit in with society.
I had a long response typed up, but I feel like we can’t properly unpack your comment without firmly crossing the no modern politics rule. Especially unpacking the modern propaganda required to call clans left leaning.
Short version. Save for RasDom, clans are at best stratocracies - ruled by the military. All the democratic trappings last only as long as it takes for the military to be mildly inconvenienced. Realistically, clans are fascist governments. Calling them democracies is at best, intentionally misleading, but really just wrong.
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<deleted>
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Ravens now have free flow of people between Clan and Outworlders so that indicates they sorted themselves out as well.
What's your source on this? Because FM3145 and ER3145 both paint a very different picture.
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What's your source on this? Because FM3145 and ER3145 both paint a very different picture.
Shrapnel Magazine, last issue I think
"News" article about how Clans adapted to new life outside Homeworlds
Edit: I'm outside now so I'll dig out details once I get to desktop
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Save for RasDom, clans are at best stratocracies - ruled by the military. All the democratic trappings last only as long as it takes for the military to be mildly inconvenienced. Realistically, clans are fascist governments. Calling them democracies is at best, intentionally misleading, but really just wrong.
The Clans are stratocracies, but those militaries practices democracy. Clan Councils (and the Grand Council) vote for their Khans, saKhans, and Loremasters and on major decisions within each Clan (and across the Clans). That’s very different from the top-down manner under which militaries operate in the real world. In addition to that, the vast majority of non-military decision making in each Clan is conducted by other caste councils and assemblies, which again, are voting bodies. Although the warrior caste is ultimately responsible, in practice, they are actually responsible for little of Clan decision making outside the toumans.
Regarding fascism, there is no doubt that human/personal rights/liberties have been sacrificed for the good of various Clans or Khans at many points in their history. That said, the Clans have also gone to war over mistreatment of their civilian castes, e.g., the lead up to the Widowmaker Absorption. It’s fair to say that the Clans are susceptible to fascism because there is no body of rights protected by a judiciary independent of the warrior caste. But many more Clans than just the Bears have avoided fascism at many more points in their history: Wolves, especially pre-Refusal War (and arguably after); Foxes/Sharks; Cats; Horses; etc.
Also, almost any sci-fi military fiction will make the factions involved appear fascist whether or not the background materials actually characterize them as such. No one wants to read a 300-page novel about a parliamentary debate on whether or not to go to war. We want to read 300-page novels about the war, its leadership, and the sacrifices made on each side.
FWIW...
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An interesting view might be that the Clans practice an inverted form of the Spartan Gerousia (Congress). The Spartan Gerousia was made of retired soldiers, but since the Clans when designed under Kerensky's vision were made to be culturally incompatible with such an idea, it was handed over to the closest equivalent the Clans could offer.
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Shrapnel Magazine, last issue I think
"News" article about how Clans adapted to new life outside Homeworlds
Edit: I'm outside now so I'll dig out details once I get to desktop
No worries, I already have it pulled up.
So this is kinda true, but also a bit misleading. The Shrapnel article indicates that the Alliance allows a limited number of citizens each "season" (weird word choice; why not just say year, or quarter if 'season' was the intent?) to seek out sponsorship for legal reassignment, which to me says it's by no means a guarantee that they'll even get it. It's certainly not a free flow of people between the two, as that would almost certainly cause serious social problems (or rather, worsen the problems they're already having), and there's still a sharp separation between the Ravens and the Outworlders.
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I had a long response typed up, but I feel like we can’t properly unpack your comment without firmly crossing the no modern politics rule. Especially unpacking the modern propaganda required to call clans left leaning.
Short version. Save for RasDom, clans are at best stratocracies - ruled by the military. All the democratic trappings last only as long as it takes for the military to be mildly inconvenienced. Realistically, clans are fascist governments. Calling them democracies is at best, intentionally misleading, but really just wrong.
The Clans follow a form of economic Socialism, everything is owned by the Clan, hence some left and as many have pointed out including TPTB, they are a Democracy, do they and can they have Fascist leanings, yes, but they are still a democracy, you just have to be an active member of the caste to vote in that castes affairs and the vote of the Warrior Caste count as a Veto, no one ever said it was a fair democracy.
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I am not sure the Clans would even qualify as anocracies, but I know that they would not through Kerensky's vision qualify under the coinage democracy. Even Sparta with its civil councils and its congress was still an autocracy.
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No worries, I already have it pulled up.
So this is kinda true, but also a bit misleading. The Shrapnel article indicates that the Alliance allows a limited number of citizens each "season" (weird word choice; why not just say year, or quarter if 'season' was the intent?) to seek out sponsorship for legal reassignment, which to me says it's by no means a guarantee that they'll even get it. It's certainly not a free flow of people between the two, as that would almost certainly cause serious social problems (or rather, worsen the problems they're already having), and there's still a sharp separation between the Ravens and the Outworlders.
This sounds like the slave tribunals in the Marian Hegemony where a slave can petition to be assigned to the plebeian class but (at least until julius O'Reilly) it included a hefty bribe. So far the most "free flowing" system seems to be in the Dominion though even there joining the military is the best way to get up in life. But military uber alles isn't exactly the best way to govern a realm which houses billions of people not indoctrinated in your ways
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In this game universe, joining the military is always the best option for somebody not born wealthy or noble (and even then, it can still help).
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No one wants to read a 300-page novel about a parliamentary debate on whether or not to go to war.
(Incoherent yelling from the direction of the Free Worlds League)
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Followed by loud sounds that are similar to gunshots, but no cries for medical.
TT
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Followed by loud sounds that are similar to gunshots, but no cries for medical.
TT
The Dominion is at it again
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The Dominion is just the Clan FWL. They forget you exist for 20 years then need to civil war you to trim you back down to size.
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The Dominion is just the Clan FWL. They forget you exist for 20 years then need to civil war you to trim you back down to size.
This is the real reason we have Ogre BA ^_^.
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I am not sure the Clans would even qualify as anocracies, but I know that they would not through Kerensky's vision qualify under the coinage democracy. Even Sparta with its civil councils and its congress was still an autocracy.
I'd say they are a Semi-socialist Democratic Stratocracy, or were before they changed from the pressure of the IS, everything is owned by the Clan, the Warrior Council rules, but the warrior council is democratic, it's not autocratic because the council has the right to remove the Khan via a vote and the Khan is voted in.
Sarna, yes i know not the most reliable source but i'm still on my first coffee, has under Khan, that the position is only supposed to be taken while a Clan is involved in a conflict larger than a normal trial of possession and the Clan Council becomes a kurultai, so IF sarna is right, under Kerensky's vision the Clans are democratic, but i really suspect Kerensky just pulled parts of governmental theory out of a hat,
Elizabeth Hazen
"So great Kerensky what do you invision for our future"
Nicky K
"We are a..." sticks hand in hat "Clan based semi-socialist democratic autocracy!"
Sarah McEvedy
"Wait did you just pull out pieces of paper from a hat and just read them out?"
Nicky K
"I issue a trial of Annihilation against..." reaches into another hat "Clan.... Wolverine!"
Sarah McEvedy
"Who's Clan Wolverine? why are you all looking at me like that? ohhh.... bye!"
:grin:
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I would say it is a limited democracy as the major decisions are only voted on by warriors and the rest has nothing to say. And you can always fight against a decision with a trial. Almost like a thugocracy
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Rule by thieves would be a kleptocracy. This might be interchangeable with thugs, though stratocracy might also work (No distinction between military and warriors in this definition).
Rule by a mob of people would be an ochlocracy.
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I'd say they are a Semi-socialist Democratic Stratocracy, or were before they changed from the pressure of the IS, everything is owned by the Clan, the Warrior Council rules, but the warrior council is democratic, it's not autocratic because the council has the right to remove the Khan via a vote and the Khan is voted in.
Not really socialist. Given the complete control of the economy the protected class has, it’s a state run command economy. Socialism is considerably less heavy handed where government control of an industry is on a case by case basis on which makes most sense. Warriors in the clans seem to have control of every last facet when they want to.
Foxes would be state run capitalism.
Also, even if “elected” - an extremely generous word here given how few people vote on it - the scope of power the khan has is still that of an autocrat or authoritarian depending on the clan.
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The warrior caste facet is why they are similar to the Spartan autocratic model, where assemblies could have power if higher levels allowed them to. The Gerousia itself had the power to remove kings in certain instances.
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I would say it is a limited democracy as the major decisions are only voted on by warriors and the rest has nothing to say. And you can always fight against a decision with a trial. Almost like a thugocracy
Not really socialist. Given the complete control of the economy the protected class has, it’s a state run command economy. Socialism is considerably less heavy handed where government control of an industry is on a case by case basis on which makes most sense. Warriors in the clans seem to have control of every last facet when they want to.
Foxes would be state run capitalism.
Also, even if “elected” - an extremely generous word here given how few people vote on it - the scope of power the khan has is still that of an autocrat or authoritarian depending on the clan.
It doesn't matter how limited in scope those eligible to vote is, or how much power the person voted in has, or how the vote is held, as long as there is someone eligible to vote, as long as the person at the top allows a vote and a vote can happen, it's still a democracy, a democracy doesn't have to be fair to be a democracy, you could have three people on and island, with two eligible to vote and one votee having two votes, as long as a vote can be called it's a democracy, it's not a fair one, but it still is one.
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I know that I am getting ignored here, but I am trying to tell you that that is not only not true, but I have a historic example I can present in Sparta. I am well aware of the limits of Athenian democracy, as well as some of its revolting extremes.
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To put it another way, I think that there may be a confusion with superficial democratic trappings and a democracy. https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/trappings
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I know that I am getting ignored here, but I am trying to tell you that that is not only not true, but I have a historic example I can present in Sparta. I am well aware of the limits of Athenian democracy, as well as some of its revolting extremes.
You're not getting ignored, you just keep citing two of many different forms of democracy, i can give an historical example, from only 200 years ago where being enfranchised and the number of votes you had was based on sex, social position, age, property and income, I can also name a Democratic system where out of 331.9 million people only 538 people have a vote.
noun: democracy
a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.
bolded by me
The only thing that makes a Democracy is that those eligible to vote get to vote, everything else is window dressing, in the case of the Clans it's the warrior caste that get to vote for the Khan, it is a Democracy by the dictionary definition.
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I don't think we can take the Oxford dictionary has the final word on the definition of Democracy, as there has been over 2500 years of political thought on the subject. Aristotle would have put the Clans in next to the Spartans (and for later philosophers, the Romans) as a mixed constitution with oligarchic Learnings. Since Not all warriors get a vote. The council is only made up of Bloodnamed warriors, so there is a clear segregation of political power both by caste and by prestige/wealth. That makes the whole system far oligarchy, the rule of the few, with some monarchal (the Khans) and democratic (the councils) traditions.
For me I feel that Clan society is clearly take a lot of influence from the Spartan constitution.
- Dual Executive service for life.
- Gerousia - Blooded Warriors that vote. Serving for Life
- Ekklesia/Spartiates- Warriors
- Perioeci - Freeborn Warriors
- Helots - Freebirths, with the option of doing better.
- Agoge - Brutal Training program to produce only the best warriors.
I feel like in Clan Society, Khans get deposed via some sort of legal process a lot more frequently than do IS House Lords, making Khans far more accountable to their populations. And there seams to be more room for social advancement through talent at an early age. While at the same time, Clan society offers a lot less opportunities for personal freedom than in other polities.
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Your saying, Khans are off'd if they chose a bad course without back plans or distractions. And cannot defend themselves in battle.
I can see that.
Only way is up to defend your honor or death, as you move among the ranking food chain.
TT
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There are a variety of reasons why Successor Lords are less accountable than say a Khan. For one thing, the governments of Successor States are far more layered, full of astute and aged statesmen, bureaucrats and advisors from top to bottom. This is one reason why it is difficult to decapitate a Successor State, the extreme majority of governing has little to do with the Successor Lord. Lords may at times be forced to deal with issues at planetary level and so forth, and minor lords themselves can sabotage the work of Successor Lords, but the machine as a whole will continue to function competently. This is not even getting into internal mechanisms of individual states.
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A Clan Khan is an autocrat only a point - if you have the ability, the nerve, and the opportunity, you can legally challenge him or her to a physical fight and kill them if you don't like their decisions. If they refuse this fight from a legitimate challenger they lose face and their honor takes a big hit.
If a Khan's warriors turn on them, they have no power and possibly will be dead. Their power is by will of the Clan Council.
This also has the effect of making the person who successfully challenged the Khan an automatic frontrunner to replace them, or at least gain a higher respect from the next leader.
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To put it another way, I think that there may be a confusion with superficial democratic trappings and a democracy. https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/trappings
I’d argue that it’s the Houses that have the superficial trappings of democracy, while actually being hereditary autocracies. Not trying to pick on your faction, but the FWL is a glaring example. Ostensibly, the FWL is a representative democracy through its parliament. But practically all the powers of that parliament — executive succession, military decisions, budget decisions, provincial autonomy — have been ceded to the Captain-General through a series a series of laws, including Resolution 288, the Internal Emergency Act of 3030, and the Addendum to Incorporation. The Lyran and Suns representative bodies similarly ceded all real power to the Archon and Prince even earlier in their history.
Contrast that with the Clans, where there is a functioning, voting council at the top of every caste and additional councils and assemblies practicing direct democracy at every level of Clan society over a whole range of decisions. If Khan X wants to go to war with Clan Y but Clan Council X does not, Clan Council X can vote Khan X’s proposal down (and further vote to remove that Khan from power as necessary). If Captain-General X wants to go to war with Successor State Y and the FWL Parliament disagrees, there’s little to nothing they can do to stop the Captain-General from going to war. They can’t enforce a vote opposing the operation in the first place, they can’t withdraw funding from the war, and they can’t remove the Captain-General from power.
BT is a universe of war. For the purposes of that universe, if a faction has a voting body that can start or stop a war, I’d argue that’s the measure of whether that faction has a functioning democracy. If a faction does not have a voting body that can start or stop a war, I’d argue that faction only has the trappings of democracy.
And again, BT fiction isn’t going to focus on parliamentary debates, lobbying congressional committees, and the like. C-SPAN is boring. Megalomaniacal warlords are not. But looking at how the governments are laid out and their workings in the sourcebooks, it’s clear that the Clans are intended to have functioning democracies while the Houses transferred those powers to hereditary autocracies a long time ago.
FWIW...
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A Clan Khan is an autocrat only a point - if you have the ability, the nerve, and the opportunity, you can legally challenge him or her to a physical fight and kill them if you don't like their decisions. If they refuse this fight from a legitimate challenger they lose face and their honor takes a big hit.
Well there's kind of the rub. Only a very small portion of people in the Clan are able to call a legitimate challenge against the Khan. And if you try to challenge the Khan and fail, your life is over. Probably literally.
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Prisoner exchange: Eh? Why is this person here? (Demandingly)
Reply: Labourer bondsman, free with prisoner.
TT
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Well there's kind of the rub. Only a very small portion of people in the Clan are able to call a legitimate challenge against the Khan. And if you try to challenge the Khan and fail, your life is over. Probably literally.
Joe Average can't really walk up to president's office and argue with him over politics either
Same goes for Johan Average walking up to Archon's palace and doing the same
Potential challengers to a Khan are required to pass the same process as he/she did before taking position of Khan
And if Khan gets challenged and fails then their life is also over. Probably literally as well
It's a very two way street, practicing politics in a Clan literally means being willing to put your life on the line for your political beliefs
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Joe Average can't really walk up to president's office and argue with him over politics either
No, but Joe Average can become politically active regardless of their background and potentially reach the point where they can actually argue directly with the president over a new piece of legislation. The Clans are a caste system and lack of social mobility is one of the key traits of caste systems.
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No, but Joe Average can become politically active regardless of their background and potentially reach the point where they can actually argue directly with the president over a new piece of legislation. The Clans are a caste system and lack of social mobility is one of the key traits of caste systems.
Joe Average over here indeed can
Johan Average and his peers in the Inner Sphere however can't
Social mobility is not a thing in BT universe otherwise rich kids would not be inheriting entire star clusters
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Yeah, but we were talking about the Clans and whether or not they're a democracy. We already knew that the Successor States aren't- the whole hereditary ruling dynasties kind of gives it away.
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Well there's kind of the rub. Only a very small portion of people in the Clan are able to call a legitimate challenge against the Khan. And if you try to challenge the Khan and fail, your life is over. Probably literally.
I think anyone theoretically can issue a trial against the Khan, it's just heavily stacked against the challenger if they're not a warrior due to the system, RD at least has a system in place where a champion can be named.
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The Dominion eventually came up with a system, but normally by Clan law only a Bloodnamed warrior can challenge another Bloodnamed warrior. A warrior without a Bloodname needs a Bloodnamed sponsor to be allowed to do so, per Malicious intent when Vlad needed Elias's backing to be allowed to declare a Trial of Grievances against Vandervan.
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If Captain-General X wants to go to war with Successor State Y and the FWL Parliament disagrees, there’s little to nothing they can do to stop the Captain-General from going to war. They can’t enforce a vote opposing the operation in the first place, they can’t withdraw funding from the war, and they can’t remove the Captain-General from power.
The fact that the Captain General would get sacked or stripped of power if they cross too many lines is actually a plot beat in Blood of Kerensky. That’s why Hanse resorts to saying he’ll let the Captain General’s kid die if they don’t get support. The Captain General then accepts only because of the kid. Otherwise he comments about not being able to just do things like Hanse can.
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The fact that the Captain General would get sacked or stripped of power if they cross too many lines is actually a plot beat in Blood of Kerensky. That’s why Hanse resorts to saying he’ll let the Captain General’s kid die if they don’t get support. The Captain General then accepts only because of the kid. Otherwise he comments about not being able to just do things like Hanse can.
Resolution 288, passed circa 2784, eliminated the Parliament’s ability to censure or remove the current Captain-General “for the duration of the crisis”, gave the Captain-General the power to name their successor, and gave the Captain-General the power to determine when the “crisis” was over. Needless to say, the “crisis” was still ongoing during the time period covered by BoK. So either Stackpole didn’t pick up on or ignored Resolution 288 from the FWL sourcebooks, or his (later false) Thomas Marik character is misportraying his situation for whatever reason.
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Certainly wouldn't be the first time that Stackpole's ignored canon and continuity. I can't imagine it's because he was unaware; I know less than jack **** about the FWL and even I was aware of Resolution 288; it's one of the FWL's defining traits.
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The interesting part about reosultion 288 is that it didn't really gave the Captain-General the authority he or she needed. The League was very much still fractured and the member states vied for every little bit they could get. Even 'Thomas Marik' who was one of the best Captain Generals had to step lightly to centralize command & control of the FWLM. And if FM 3067 is to be believed he had to juggle the small worlds against the huge voting blocks to even get the budget for the expansion and upgrade of the League's military. Just look at the TRO's of the LEagues first homegrown battle armor: they needed greater budgets and Thomas had to arm wrestle with parliament for the approval
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Well there's kind of the rub. Only a very small portion of people in the Clan are able to call a legitimate challenge against the Khan. And if you try to challenge the Khan and fail, your life is over. Probably literally.
Exactly why I worded it that way. IIRC only Star Colonels and higher can challenge a Khan. And during times of war, the Khan can honorably refuse to accept (and even rule out challenges to any other warrior), though everyone will be waiting to see what happens after hostilities die down.
As for the challenger, agreed. It should be known that it's in the Khan's best interest to kill any challenger who isn't useful politically. Challenger beware.
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Regarding aging, what C:WoK, p. 59 actually says is “The Clans find tasks suitable to the skills of older people,” so if a laborer can no longer swing a hammer or lift boxes, they’ll become responsible for filing paperwork or checking inventory instead. No one is abandoned unless they refuse to work, and then in that case “you starve” (or join the Dark Caste).
Sudden the idea for a Dark Caste, an older supply clerk, left in "clan service" while supplying what the DC needs out the backdoor
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Sudden the idea for a Dark Caste, an older supply clerk, left in "clan service" while supplying what the DC needs out the backdoor
Considering that the scientist caste used Dark caste members as bodyguards or guards for facilities there might be more truth to that then you realize. Heck a few sympathetic lower caste member in Air control or so and a Dark Caste raiding force has a much easier time to infiltrate
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Or, erroneously redirect the clan garrison.
TT
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On the flip side of that equation, given the events of the Society's uprising, I'd certainly hope that the Clans are much more on the lookout for (and a lot less tolerant of) those sorts of shenanigans now.
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On the flip side of that equation, given the events of the Society's uprising, I'd certainly hope that the Clans are much more on the lookout for (and a lot less tolerant of) those sorts of shenanigans now.
Given what left that we know of all the clans who knows those in the Inner Sphere using locals might have it worse, I mean how many Sgt. Bilko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgt._Bilko) do they have.
And the more they cut down on the individual initiative, the more the warrior class will suffer lack of prep.
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So we got a new story in Shrapnel 14… I mean sorta…. It’s certainly an interesting one.
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On the flip side of that equation, given the events of the Society's uprising, I'd certainly hope that the Clans are much more on the lookout for (and a lot less tolerant of) those sorts of shenanigans now.
Considering the Malthus Confederation is probably stronger than the Malthus family during the succession wars I would state that there are more shenanigans not less.
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Considering the Malthus Confederation is probably stronger than the Malthus family during the succession wars I would state that there are more shenanigans not less.
Which is kind of crazy to me, given that the Falcons were brutally repressive to their conquered populace well before Malvina Hazen came to power and the Falcons in particular had suffered quite a bit from the Society (and answered it with the Annihilation of their entire scientist caste).
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Somewhere in the JFOZ 3060's...
knock knock
Former Lyran citizen: Who's there?
Voice behind door: Jade Falcon Watch.
Former Lyran citizen: Jade Falcon Watch who?
::Door explodes:: YOU WILL TELL US THE REST OF WHAT YOU KNOW OF OUR OPERATIONS, FREEBIRTH!
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Yeah, that's probably about how they did it.
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It really says a lot that Bears are more subtle than Birds. At least in this case.
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Yeah, well, you ever see a falcon try to sneak up on anything and ambush it?
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Yeah, well, you ever see a falcon try to sneak up on anything and ambush it?
Not really. But I did read about how a timelapse video filmed in Siberia captured a huge golden eagle attacking a full-grown deer. It sunk its talons into the deer's back and held on while it tried to escape. The deer bled out and collapsed. Part ambush and part brute force.
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Yeah, that's probably about how they did it.
Well at the very least the Falcons were very open on how they deal with "bad elements" in their zone. The TRO 3085 had a small mention about the Jade Falcon police and their armament. Crowd control shotguns aren't exactly subtle right?
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Beanbag rounds are typically fired from shotguns.
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Which is kind of crazy to me, given that the Falcons were brutally repressive to their conquered populace well before Malvina Hazen came to power and the Falcons in particular had suffered quite a bit from the Society (and answered it with the Annihilation of their entire scientist caste).
Despite the whole work credits thing there is a thriving black market in the Clan OZ a bottle of Scotch here, a pretty little thing there and suddenly they control you. Not to mention if the Falcons were brutal enough the people won’t trust them and thus the black market steps in “offering better protection”.
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Considering the Malthus Confederation is probably stronger than the Malthus family during the succession wars I would state that there are more shenanigans not less.
Jade Falcon political system is exactly the type of environment where organized crime would thrive once forced out of isolation of the Homeworlds
It's been that way throughout history, the more repressive the system is the more organized crime has to become in order to survive and generate profit and historic axiom is that there will always be crime
Malthus Syndicate is not an anomaly, it's logical outcome
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So we got a new story in Shrapnel 14… I mean sorta…. It’s certainly an interesting one.
Indeed it is, quite a fun read
I hope that Mongol Falcon survived the ilClan trial and will be riding the Great Work in the years to come, Osiris-chan is just the right tool to tech him some humility and give him fresh perspective on life :grin:
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Certainly been asked before but it's hard to search: did Zeta Galaxy have a defined colorscheme? Nothing in Warden Clans or via CamoSpecs that I see.
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I don’t think they lasted long enough. Plus being all BA makes it kind of a weird unit to paint, so no camospecs options, or even a description.
Of any unit, they would make the most sense to just be camo. Maybe take on, either in part or in whole, the cluster’s they combined with paint scheme when they made the nova clusters.
Or maybe they go full into their nickname, Claws of the Ghost, and are a greenish white.
TL;DR: I don’t think so.
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I’d want to look at Test of Vengeance again and read thru it to see. IIRC it’s the only fiction with a Claw unit in it. And of course Warden Clans but you said you checked.
How in the name of hell has no one painted Zeta on CamoSpecs… I’m disappointed in my fellow Bears lol
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Should erect The Walking Dead unit...
Paint them on Zeta's colors, when found, and do a death style morbid scheme.
TT
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Was considering painting a star of Zeta to go with a Rasalhague trinary I'm assembling, but
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I'd say the closest there is to an actual answer to this question is the newer cover of Test of Vengeance (https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/cdn/shop/products/E-CAT36062_Test-of-Vengeance_1024x1024.jpg). Maybe the original cover (https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/d/d5/Test_of_Vengeance.jpg), too, for comparison's sake?
EDIT: There's a Zeta Galaxy Elemental Point from the First Claw in the Miniature Rules book, page 28.
IIRC it’s the only fiction with a Claw unit in it.
There's also "The Walking Dead" from the 25 Years book.
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Interesting, thanks. That’s a hell of a pauldron.
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Well, one wouldn't know they were dying from Rad poison from the mini, but a possible solution might be to give a radioactive sign on their suits or hex side.
Paint them in Zeta and then the symbol to represent them should do nicely.
TT
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I've actually been rereading Test of Vengeance (first time since ~2001!) and while I haven't noticed a standard paintscheme mention, Zeta does use a white and blue camo on Alshain.
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Again (just in case it was missed), Zeta Galaxy does have a canon paint scheme (with a photograph of a Point of Elementals) in the Miniatures Rules book, page 28.
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Oh, I know. I just thought it interesting to bring up, since the book’s contents were suggested earlier.
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Certainly wouldn't be the first time that Stackpole's ignored canon and continuity. I can't imagine it's because he was unaware; I know less than jack **** about the FWL and even I was aware of Resolution 288; it's one of the FWL's defining traits.
Actually, it was channeling a realworld political science paradigm, what is explicitly written into a law or constitution may not actually represent the reality. This is true of even highly stable and effective governments. To parse it another way, the Parliament has full control of the courts, who may ask the Parliament for advice when making a ruling--that advice is to be taken as though it were the law. As it is advice to what a law means rather than lawmaking, it is vetoproof. The Free Worlds League also seems to have a system of implied rights as seen in the right for systems to have self-determination from provinces.
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Certainly wouldn't be the first time that Stackpole's ignored canon and continuity. I can't imagine it's because he was unaware; I know less than jack **** about the FWL and even I was aware of Resolution 288; it's one of the FWL's defining traits.
Except that Thomas wasn't really worried about it, he was NEGOTIATING.
"ohh gee Hanse I'd like to help but but you know parliment hamstrings me, you need to sweeten the pot for them"
Noticethat Hanse offered Thomas something that benifited HIM, and not nesscarily the FWL in the end and suddenly had an agreement? Hnase clearly KNEW Thomas was bullshitting.
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I'd say the closest there is to an actual answer to this question is the newer cover of Test of Vengeance (https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/cdn/shop/products/E-CAT36062_Test-of-Vengeance_1024x1024.jpg).
Nice art work, thanks for the share :cool:
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Interesting, thanks. That’s a hell of a pauldron.
Almost reminds me of a 40k terminator pauldron, with the GB symbol replacing the cruix
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Agh my shoulder articulation!
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That moment reading FM Warden Clans when you realise Delta Galaxy (The Blitzkrieg) are mobility focused with independent junior officers with a lot of freedom, excellent senior officers, relying on air support to cut through where their lack of mass cannot. It is Fall Gelb.
I should stop watching tanker YouTube.
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The Bears had character. The only problem was that the Field Manual revealed how small Clan forces truly were, an Inner Sphere battle armor regiment would not be worth mentioning outside of the context of the regiment it might be attached to, the Bears bragged about a galaxy (Zeta). Omicron was becoming an aerospace centered unit for some Raven tint.
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Field Manual Warden Clans is an old book now. There are a lot more layers to things now. Eg Royal SLDF Mechs, the Unseen are back, etc.
There was always a problem with the PGCs as they lacked the OmniMechs to shift their battle armor. At least without devoting every OmniMech to the task. At the same time Sigma Galaxy fluff talks about tank crews requesting transfer to Sigma from other Galaxies when historically tanks barely exist in other Galaxies.
So what are our thoughts on light transport Stars attached to PGC BA Binaries in the pre 3060 era?
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Absolutely yes. I think once we do a full merger in the post jihad era every unit should have them attached.
Maybe 2-5 older omnis per trinary of Battlemechs. They need it
Even full on IFVs I don’t mind.
‘if it’s not on two or four legs or flying it’s not real and can be ignored for force building.’
-A clanner (probably)
The Saladin Clan Cargo variant calls out its use as infantry transport. We built the Tyr shortly after our migration, and the similar Eldingar after the Jihad (probably to deal with our Omni-shortage). The Bandit and Badger were invented well after clan doctrine was established so there has to be a reason someone did it. Even the heavy APC types are on the MUL for clans at all times. I imagine just like solhama and non-integrated aero assets, they are unlisted.
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Field Manual Warden Clans is an old book now. There are a lot more layers to things now. Eg Royal SLDF Mechs, the Unseen are back, etc.
There was always a problem with the PGCs as they lacked the OmniMechs to shift their battle armor. At least without devoting every OmniMech to the task. At the same time Sigma Galaxy fluff talks about tank crews requesting transfer to Sigma from other Galaxies when historically tanks barely exist in other Galaxies.
So what are our thoughts on light transport Stars attached to PGC BA Binaries in the pre 3060 era?
For PCG's I wonder if a support vehicle would be more fitting? something to get the BA Stars to the field but not get involved, much like how some old IRL infantry used to ride horses to the field, then dismount and fight on foot, leaving the horses behind their lines. or just Indra's, Svantovit's and SLDF hand me down APC's.
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Trothkin, soon (tm) I will fight the Jade Falcons for a third time Star Versus Star and I hope to win once again to make three out of three victories.
Grand Summoner Prime
Mad Dog Mark VI B
Jade Phoenix Prime
Shrike
Gyrfalcon
(All 4/3 pilots)
Versus my
Warhammer IIC 10 (3/4)
Nova Cat E (3/4)
Executioner F (2/4)
Kodiak 5 (3/4)
Kontio (3/2)
We both rolled in the RAT’s (Tamar versus DD), and I didn’t stick with the exact variants but the same mechs (I rolled badly on a couple of the Front Line mechs so I re-rolled on the second line and good better machines). I put more points into gunnery (as usual for me) with the exception of the Kontio.
Most afraid of the Jade Phoenix and Gyrfalcon: Jade because well it’s an optimized beast, and the Gyrfalcon only because I have to hope I can put dance it around with the Kontio.
Will update once the battle is fought!
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don't under estimate the grand summoner prime eaither, it's a good mech,
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don't under estimate the grand summoner prime eaither, it's a good mech,
I’ve faced the Prime, C, and D. The C is a monster imo but the Prime and D are standard heavies: treat with respect but not the worst.
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The Jade Phoenix is getting +3 defensive mods, but suffering +3 to-hits. With those 4 gunners it is at 7s to hit you from the start. It is a big scary Clan assault but you have them too. The Gyrfalcon is a tough target and set up for sniping. OTOH 4 gunner again so if it wants to sit at long range it starts at 11. It will have to be at 15 hexes if it wants to hit anything.
It looks manageable.
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In a (relatively) short but decisive game Clan Ghost Bear has come out victorious!
The Kontio pilot (with big titanium … uh well you know) charged up the left flank, dropped prone for a turn, dodged the entire enemy Stars fire to savage the enemy Grand Summoner, Mad Dog, and Gyrfalcon. The Executioner sniped enemy mechs until it was able to charge in and seriously damage the enemy Grand Summoner with a kick. The Kodiak drew most of the enemy fire while evaporating enemy armor with its phalanx of medium lasers, while the Nova Cat and Warhammer rained fire upon the approaching Shrike and Jade Phoenix. The Phoenix fell for the trap and the Nova Cat unleashed 36 HE ATM rounds (with the majority hitting) and stripping a boatload of armor from the previously lightly damaged machine.
With the two enemy assault mechs savaged at close range and his two heavies moderately damaged the Falcon commander requested hegira. Most of my mechs had armor damage (Kodiak needed just about every armor plate on the front) and my Warhammer had an unlucky Torso issue. But we have claimed victory in the end
I took salvage, and as the trial was for a full Star of enemy machines, I have now captured a full Trinary of Falcon machines for my Galaxy.
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Well done.
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How goes it trothkin? Is our hibernation over?
I shall be attending Adepticon in a week so that’ll be fun. Did inventory on all my forces and found I have over 300 pieces (not including Elementals) but only about 20 are painted and like only two were by me.
What are we excited about this year? Obviously the KS but anything else?
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Well, IlKhan's Eyes Only is coming out and hopefully will include more information on what's happening in the Dominion.
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Well, IlKhan's Eyes Only is coming out and hopefully will include more information on what's happening in the Dominion.
How soon ? :cool:
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Some time this year. Hopefully. The Coming Soon page lists it as "November 2024," but who knows?
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Some time this year. Hopefully. The Coming Soon page lists it as "November 2024," but who knows?
It was initially earlier and got pushed back with the KS stuff iirc.
We also have two packs rumored/planned for 2026 via Kerensky-Con.
Clan Ghost Bear (Q2)
Thresher
Ursus
Arcas
Guillotine IIC
Kodiak 5
Raslhauge Dominion (Q2)
Karhu Prime
Mastodon Prime
Kontio
Bear Cub
Mongoose 86
Great we are getting GB/RasDom themed stuff. Sucks we get stuck with the Thresher, Guillotine IIC is great but not very fluffy. Mongoose is meh too. I wish it was a Beowulf IIC for any of those. Nice to have a modern Arcas and get the Mastodon in plastic. However long in the future it may be.
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Yeah, the Thresher is an odd choice, given that it seems to be unpopular among the Clans. It'd be even weirder if it's supposed to be the Thresher II (which at least is in ilClan Recognition Guide 4) since that was made for Clan Wolf. I'd swap the Thresher for the Beowulf II and the Mongoose for the Kuma, which is supposed to be pretty common post-Jihad.
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It was a precursor to the Summoner, designed by CHH and the SeaFoxes. It and the Guillotine IIC are clan general for late SW until the Jihad, then it splinters and we don’t have them.
I didn’t forget about the Kuma, I just hate that thing almost as much as mixed tech. I’d rather have that than the Thresher tho. Just for lores sake.
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I didn’t forget about the Kuma, I just hate that thing almost as much as mixed tech.
Oh? Why's that?
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Oh? Why's that?
It just bothers me, also the Arcas 3 exists.
And it’s not that I’m not excited about more stuff coming, just looking at the other faction boxes it makes me feel ghost bears were last in line again. Every other faction got pure fluff choices across the board. We got assigned 30% random junk (looking at you Thresher). No Rime Otter, no fluffy Kuma, no mid Beowulf IIC.
(The rest: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=84391.0 )
Also I am just a complainer at heart. Which might answer most questions
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I want to see the stats of the mech the artist thought he was drawing instead of what we got for the
Kuma Marshmallow.
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it makes me feel ghost bears were last in line again.
Pfft, please. The Raven Alliance didn't even get a box. Cry me a river. :laugh:
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I want to see the stats of the mech the artist thought he was drawing instead of what we got for the Kuma Marshmallow.
A ProtoMech, like the Parash and I think a couple of others in TR3085. I was working backwards from Doug Chaffee's art when I designed and wrote up the Kuma and Parash. I was never given the full story, but Doug had done some ProtoMech art, either for a contracted but abandoned project or just on his own. It didn't look like it was going to be used as intended, so Doug (or someone) slightly modified the pieces and we used them for BattleMechs.
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I see.
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I’d rather have a Rime Otter
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I see.
Keep in kind that anything that'll be released in plastic first has to go through the redesign process under Anthony's skilled eyes. 'Mechs like the Kuma will at least be tweaked to fit into the current aesthetic.
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Oh, I'm sure of that. I was just responding to the information you provided. Hadn't known the story before.
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Pfft, please. The Raven Alliance didn't even get a box. Cry me a river. :laugh:
I was thinking about this actually. One possible reason could be that they’re going to include some more aerospace in it and maybe release it the same time as new aero rules. Longshot yes but still. Could also be just an aerospace box…
The other (more likely) being of course the list is incomplete/ subject to change etc
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It was initially earlier and got pushed back with the KS stuff iirc.
We also have two packs rumored/planned for 2026 via Kerensky-Con.
Great we are getting GB/RasDom themed stuff. Sucks we get stuck with the Thresher, Guillotine IIC is great but not very fluffy. Mongoose is meh too. I wish it was a Beowulf IIC for any of those. Nice to have a modern Arcas and get the Mastodon in plastic. However long in the future it may be.
You missed the Battle Armor.
Thresher is a solid pre-3060 Ghost Bear option. It is also a duel purpose bone for the Sharks.
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You missed the Battle Armor.
Thresher is a solid pre-3060 Ghost Bear option. It is also a duel purpose bone for the Sharks.
I am excited for the Rogue Bear: I love the artwork of it but I fear it won’t be as detailed in plastic form. Either way I’m buying plenty and adding them to my forces.
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So you're saying that even if the new mini can't do the artwork justice, it won't be unbearable?
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So you're saying that even if the new mini can't do the artwork justice, it won't be unbearable?
We shall see you out now… please leave
Lol
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You missed the Battle Armor.
Thresher is a solid pre-3060 Ghost Bear option. It is also a duel purpose bone for the Sharks.
What makes it ghost bear as opposed to a generic clan choice? Same with the Guillotine IIC? I guess I can understand the mongoose from a lore perspective in the post merger group, but it fails to make me happy. The others I see no real ghost bear link.
Why is it the Ghost Bear groups are the throw other factions a bone packs?
I have little to complain about on the Rogue Bear front, other than I just don’t care for the design compared to the Gnome. So it slipped out of the rant(s).
Also from a Discord, Ray has said it’s not set in stone. It is two years out, so maybe I’ll change his mind. :rolleyes:
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Pfft, please. The Raven Alliance didn't even get a box. Cry me a river. :laugh:
:cry:
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Did you see all the Cappie and FWL gear? On one hand this is the now standard use the Bear list to other Clans something as well. OTOH, we are pushing out Great Houses. That never happens.
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Did you see all the Cappie and FWL gear? On one hand this is the now standard use the Bear list to other Clans something as well. OTOH, we are pushing out Great Houses. That never happens.
Two steps forward one back I suppose.
Like I said I’m happy we’re getting new plastics
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Like I said I’m happy we’re getting new plastics
Over 300 new sculpts and redesigns that are released, in active production, or at least tentatively planned.
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How goes it trothkin? Is our hibernation over?
I shall be attending Adepticon in a week so that’ll be fun. Did inventory on all my forces and found I have over 300 pieces (not including Elementals) but only about 20 are painted and like only two were by me.
What are we excited about this year? Obviously the KS but anything else?
Been running a widowmaker absorption campaign with some friends, very excited for rogue bear.
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Trothkin! Some help/advice is needed.
I’m going to be running mass Elementals in games again soon and need to refresh myself on the rules: what’s the book for that again?
Also any advice on the Swarm/Anti-Mech attacks would be appreciated. AFAIK it’s just a good way to damage mech legs in melee as BA? But am I missing something big? (Obviously lol)
Usually I just run with APG Elementals BUT I kinda want to throw in a heavier suit with a big gun (still transportable by Omni). Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance
Also on a side note: Adepticon was fun! Embarrassed myself by asking nearly all the Catalyst Devs/Authors who they were (including Ray, Randall, John Helfers, Brent Evans, and more), got to meet Micheal Stackpole, made it into the Grand Finals of the Solaris Melee, raised some flags for the Davions, and watched demo agents receive KS Exclusives as rewards (jealous!)
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Total warfare has BA rules. The CI booklet has a rules primer on them as well, I can’t remember how in depth it goes.
Swarms aren’t great against anything but immobile mechs if I remember all the discussions correctly.
The new stealth Elemental IIIs did some decent work for me, but that was AS versions of them where their range got buffed with the conversion shenanigans.
Corona or even the Cuchulainn are nice MPL suits, and are heavy so can get moved around by Omni’s. Corona are light on armor tho iirc. Black Wolf are another salvage option. The new Callisto suit has a big gun variant in the MLas option, but it’s just one per point. (I still don’t like this thing). The LRM upgrade of Gnomes are awesome in fire support.
I wish I planned further ahead and went. I’ve decided on GenCon tho.
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The Support Golem is a hilarious source of Advanced SRMs that Will. Not. Die. One point has half the number of missile tubes as an SRM carrier, but between the improved accuracy and improved cluster modifier of Advanced SRMs you'll probably do as much damage and it's also got at least twice the armor. Shame you need a vehicle with an Infantry Bay to move it, though, since it's an assault suit.
Leg attacks are a good option- they can easily cripple a mech in a couple of hits. Swarms, yeah, that's mostly only useful if you've got a mech that's immobile or prone. And since it doesn't start taking damage until the round after you've swarmed it, bleh.
As far as Elementals go, Elemental IIIs or Fire Resistant Elementals are the way to go.
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Golems with LRMs ? and x1 ER Medium laser ?
nice upgrade
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Golems with LRMs ? and x1 ER Medium laser ?
nice upgrade
There's no Golem suit that has an ER Medium Laser or LRMs.
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Has anyone actually used a Rime Otter?
I’m still not sure if it’s good
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I like it. Firepower isn't great for a Clan omni of its size, but it absorbs plenty of damage.
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There's no Golem suit that has an ER Medium Laser or LRMs.
O ok, I thought there was a post about it in this thread ?
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The Gnome suit has an LRM variant.
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Has anyone actually used a Rime Otter?
I’m still not sure if it’s good
Yes. I’ve used the Prime often and it does absorb a lot of damage and puts out a decent amount with its twin large pulse forcing opponents to either obliterate it and save your other mechs or ignore it and take hits from it. Going to use the hatchet version soon in a game
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Trothkin! Some help/advice is needed.
I’m going to be running mass Elementals in games again soon and need to refresh myself on the rules: what’s the book for that again?
Also any advice on the Swarm/Anti-Mech attacks would be appreciated. AFAIK it’s just a good way to damage mech legs in melee as BA? But am I missing something big? (Obviously lol)
Usually I just run with APG Elementals BUT I kinda want to throw in a heavier suit with a big gun (still transportable by Omni). Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance
What do you want your BA to do? Eg, I try to avoid BA vs BA.
Has anyone actually used a Rime Otter?
I’m still not sure if it’s good
It is no better or worse than its peers. Mostly you can't shoot your way out of trouble like with a Stormcrow or Nova. It is not too different to a Stooping Hawk.
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I’m going to be running against a full mech Star, and the Elementals will be riding shotgun on my Omnis (mostly configured for short range murder like the mentioned Rime Otter Hatchet (C?)).
In the past I’ve mostly used them as delaying forces, skirmishers, roadblocks, or annoyances. This time I want to maybe do a bit more. I’ve got about 3-4K BV for up to a Star if necessary although I don’t need to use the full BV.
Objective will probably be full on PvP last man standing. Probably against a bunch of Falcon staples: I honestly expect a Hellbringer, Grand Summoner, Jupiter, Jade Phoenix, Gyrfalcon, Heirofalcon, Zion Sparrow combo force… but I’m not honestly trying to form a force specifically tailored to murder them.
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Honestly I would aim for missile spam. Rogue Bears and Elementals. Remember RBs can't keep up as well. I would take the STD for the extra missile.
Facing Mechs thr ERSmall Callistos are interesting for their big bite on a fastish chassis. The ER Medium is better against BA.
The Constable and Kobold aren't really useful in a knock down drag them out game. Some people recommend the Kobold IIC for knee capping. I can see how that would work. Don't bother with the Wraith.
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Is there anything that the Wraith is actually good for?
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Is there anything that the Wraith is actually good for?
..... Warcrimes?
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I would try it as an anti tank platform. The Golem was surprisingly useful at stepping out of a building and critting with its Bearhunters. A Wraith should be similar.
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Someone doing BA?
Have you tried the WoB and that meme way?
Kill it. Kill it with FIRE!!1! ?
Salamander (any), Elemental (Fire) and Resgate (any) and hose everything with Incendiary and Inferno missiles, and Heavy use of Flamers. Make it a living hell, set fire to everything. Dezgra, maybe...
If this is a pick-up game, why wouldn't you? Campaign, yeah, shouldn't or limit it to a few units.
But yeah,
(https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/43b08f446bb876df4a19a8b78d81a3d5.jpg)
TT
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Someone doing BA?
Have you tried the WoB and that meme way?
Kill it. Kill it with FIRE!!1! ?
Salamander (any), Elemental (Fire) and Resgate (any) and hose everything with Incendiary and Inferno missiles, and Heavy use of Flamers. Make it a living hell, set fire to everything. Dezgra, maybe...
If this is a pick-up game, why wouldn't you? Campaign, yeah, shouldn't or limit it to a few units.
But yeah,
(https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/43b08f446bb876df4a19a8b78d81a3d5.jpg)
TT
I have in the past against my local Hell Horse opponent who uses infantry. This upcoming fight will be a mech unit versus my light Nova. Not sure what my current opponents gonna bring.
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Usually I just run with APG Elementals BUT I kinda want to throw in a heavier suit with a big gun (still transportable by Omni). Any suggestions?
I’m going to be running against a full mech Star, and the Elementals will be riding shotgun on my Omnis (mostly configured for short range murder like the mentioned Rime Otter Hatchet (C?)).
…
Objective will probably be full on PvP last man standing. Probably against a bunch of Falcon staples: I honestly expect a Hellbringer, Grand Summoner, Jupiter, Jade Phoenix, Gyrfalcon, Heirofalcon, Zion Sparrow combo force…
Looking at your mech force, game objective, and opposing force, I’d forget about heavy suits and go with Wraiths.
You’re running light/medium omnis with short-ranged loadouts. And you don’t need to hold objectives or ground. And the opposition will probably have some bigger heavies/assaults.
That’s the perfect set-up for anti-mech leg and swarm attacks. You don’t need heavy battle armor like the Golem to create zones of control. You just need to kill mechs. And the best way to kill/cripple/distract bigger, slower mechs with BA is with anti-mech attacks. Some extra SRMs or medium lasers from heavy BA aren’t going to change the calculus much against those thickly armored opponents. But taking out leg actuators or putting 20-point-plus holes in enemy armor will change the calculus against a heavy or assault mech. And the Wraith’s vibroclaws (leg attacks) and dual MGs (swarm attacks) are purpose-built for each.
At 56BV, the Wraith is also cheap. You can darn near buy two of them for the cost of one Golem, and they’re a considerable discount even to the AP Gauss Elementals. And you’re running a fast-moving, short-ranged light/medium omnimech force, so your hatchet-wielding Otter and other omnis need to close rapidly and engage at close- to point blank range, anyway. They might as well drop some kneecapping and face-hugging Wraith points while they’re at it. As long as they’re can engage in anti-mech attacks, those Wraith will be more difficult for the opposition to deal with than Coronas or Gnomes (LRM) sitting in the backfield trying to stay in range for good to-hit numbers.
I’d also trade the Rime Otter C for a B. Saves 1K in BV and you get better hole-punching and more versatility with the heavy medium lasers and LB 10-X. As long as they’re not fragile and can handle the heat, I’d generally look for omnis with lots of improved heavy medium lasers and ATMs to match the firepower of the heavy/assault Falcons at close range. Some Mongrel, Viper, Stooping Hawk, and Nova configs come to mind. Maybe some other massed medium laser or SRM designs with low BV. The Nova T and some kind of Arctic Wolf omni come to mind. Would be hilarious to run a Sun Bear Prime with its Ultra-20.
Hope this helps… FWIW.
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I have in the past against my local Hell Horse opponent who uses infantry. This upcoming fight will be a mech unit versus my light Nova. Not sure what my current opponents gonna bring.
I suggest Fast Recon as you to go hold area deniable PBI.
Split them up in Squad levels and watch your enemy try to chase them around. They are a natty thorn, sniping at longer range (that's an SRM 5 each turn per Squad) and can scoot across the terrain. But throwing in your leftover BV into them, you might be surprised. They are very effective.
TT
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Thanks all for the advice.
Natasha: I’m actually going to try the Hunchback C again. I’ve had hilarious luck with it (admittedly the Sun Bear is probably better).
I’ll take a second look at the Wraith, and the other mechs you’ve mentioned. As much as I want to take your advice for the Rime Otter I haven’t used the B yet and I really want to test it out.
TT: I’m not running infantry anytime soon sorry. I’m working my way thru battle armor, vehicles, and one day (queue shocked expression) Warships and Aerospace. Infantry are below that at the moment.
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Natasha: I’m actually going to try the Hunchback C again. I’ve had hilarious luck with it (admittedly the Sun Bear is probably better).
I’ll take a second look at the Wraith, and the other mechs you’ve mentioned. As much as I want to take your advice for the Rime Otter I haven’t used the B yet and I really want to test it out.
What’s your BV2 limit again? Must be more 3-4K if you’re running a star of mechs.
Here’s a “shock” nova that uses lighter, faster, aggressive mechs in combination with Wraiths. The mechs all want to get within 3 hexes for optimal to-hit numbers on their heavy medium lasers, ATMs (HE), and standard SRMs. That’s also the right range for releasing the Wraiths.
Ghost Bear Nova Shock
Stormcrow K, 2001 BV2, 6/9, 182, Gauss x1, iHML x4
Wraith BA x5, 280 BV2
Rime Otter B, 1961 BV2, 5/8(13), 182 +Reinf, LB-10 x1, iHML x2, LMG x8 + Array
Wraith BA x5, 280 BV2
Carrion Crow B, 2083 BV2, 7/11(14), 133 (160), ER Lar x1, ATM-9 x1, iHML x1
Wraith BA x5, 280 BV2
Grendel T, 1936 BV2, 7/11/7, 144, Pul Lar x1, iHML x2, SRM-6 x1, ER Sm x1, iHSL x1
Wraith BA x5, 280 BV2
Viper I, 1580 BV2, 8/12/8, 134 +AMS, iHML x3 + TC, ATM-3
Wraith BA x5, 280 BV2
Total: 10,961 BV2
You got an anchor in the Stormcrow, two speed demons in the Rime Otter and Carrion Crow, and a couple jumpy flankers in the Grendel and Viper. While closing, they can throw a Gauss, a LB-10, a Pulse Large, and an ER Large at a slow opponent or two to take them down a notch. But once the speed demons and jumpy flankers have gotten within running distance of 3 hexes from their opponents — maybe even in position for rear attacks — the trap is sprung. The nova rushes in, releases the Wraiths for leg attacks, and unleashes 12 improved heavy medium lasers, 12 high-explosive ATMs, 6 SRMs, and 8 LMGs for 176 points of short-range damage. That will wreck a couple heavy/assault mechs. If some opponents fall, the Wraiths switch to swarm attacks. Your speed demons and jumpy flankers can use their extreme mobility to disengage if hit hard or caught in crossfire, or they can press the attack as needed, even trading opponents to keep their modifiers up. The Stormcrow is like a sweep unit following up to rapidly put down opponents that the other mechs and Wraiths are having trouble with. They all have decent heat management and above average survivability thanks to thick armor, 7+ hex jumps, and/or special materials and equipment (ferro-lamellor, reinforced structure, AMS).
Some decent alternatives that I was looking at for this nova. The Skinwalker is an upgrade to the Stormcrow if you have spare BV, but you’ll want to familiarize yourself with the benefits of the interface cockpit and enhanced imaging implants so you take full advantage. The Battle Cobra and Arctic Wolf pack a lot of firepower, but lack the survivability — armor and/or mobility — of the options in the original nova. But they’re lower BV if you need to fit something in. Just be aware that they may turn into one-hit wonders. I might just take a second Viper I instead.
Skinwalker D, 2545 BV2, 6/9, 161 (193), UAC/10 x1, iHML x4
Arctic Wolf II B, 1678 BV2, 7/11/7, 124, Pul Lar x1, SRM-4 x4, Pul Sm x1
Battle Cobra X, 1492 BV2, 6/9, 124 +SFE, iHML x5
Nothing wrong with the Hunchback C or Rime Otter C, but if you want to kill heavier Falcons with smash-mouth tactics, a nova like this is probably optimal. May post another nova or two using different weapons and tactics.
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This is a “striker” nova that also uses lighter, faster, aggressive mechs but is going after better targeting numbers instead of sheer damage. The mechs all want to get within 4 hexes for optimal to-hit numbers on their pulse medium lasers and Streak SRMs. Instead of Wraiths, they’re carrying stealthy Elemental III suits that can be dropped outside 3 hexes and deliver a salvo while closing for anti-mech attacks. If you’re more worried about jumpy Falcons that are hard to hit than heavily armored Falcons that are hard to penetrate, then you may want to consider this nova. With no Rime Otter or Viper and Elemental III instead of Wraith suits, this nova feels more like a Wolf than Bear formation.
Wolf Nova Striker
Stormcrow C, 1881 BV2, 6/9, 182, LB-10 x1, Pul Lar x1, Pul Med x2
Elemental III (AP Gauss) x5, 380 BV2
Nova S, 2056 BV2, 5/8/5, 160 +AMS & BAP, Pul Med x6, MG x4
Elemental III (AP Gauss) x5, 380 BV2
Carrion Crow C, 1826 BV2, 7/11/6, 133 (160), ER Pul Med x2, Streak-6 x2
Elemental III (AP Gauss) x5, 380 BV2
Grendel G, 2209 BV2, 7/11(14)/7, 144 +WD CEWS, Pul Med x4, Pul Mic x4
Elemental III (AP Gauss) x5, 380 BV2
Ice Ferret D, 1653 BV2, 8/12, 144 +AMS, Pul Med x4
Elemental III (AP Gauss) x5, 380 BV2
Total: 11,525 BV2
Again, you got an anchor in the Stormcrow, a jumper in the Nova, and a speed demon in the Ice Ferret, while the Carrion Crow and Grendel pull double duty as speed demons or jumpy flankers. While closing, this nova can only throw an LB-10 and a Pulse Large, so they need to close ASAP. But once the speed demons and jumpers have gotten within running distance of 4 hexes from their opponents — maybe even in position for rear attacks — the trap is sprung. The nova rushes in, releases the Elemental IIIs, and unleashes 18 pulse medium lasers and 12 Streak SRMs for 150 points of short-range damage, most with a -2. That will wreck a couple jumpy mechs. The Elementals close for leg attacks once their SRMs are expended or swarm attacks if an enemy mech goes down. Your speed demons and jumpy flankers can use their extreme mobility to disengage if hit hard or caught in crossfire, or they can press the attack as needed, even trading opponents to keep their modifiers up. The Stormcrow and Nova are like sweep units following up to rapidly put down opponents that the other mechs and Elementals are having trouble with. They all have decent heat management and above average survivability thanks to thick armor, 5-7 hex jumps, and/or AMS.
This Battle Cobra is a more vulnerable (slower and more lightly armored) but cheaper in BV alternative to the Grendel or Ice Ferret.
Battle Cobra A, 1466 BV2, 6/9, 124 +SFE, Pul Med x4, Pul Sm x6
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Last one... there is something to be said for TT’s burn-it-all-down approach, so this is an “incendiary” nova that also uses lighter, faster, aggressive mechs but cripples opponents’ heat scales before going after armor and crits. The Falcons are a good Clan for this with massed standard SRM loadouts on several fast, jumpy omnis. The mechs all want to get within 3 hexes for optimal to-hit numbers on their infernos and standard SRMs. They’re carrying fire-resistant Elementals (Fire), another Falcon design that can mount anti-mech attacks even while their targets and hexes are on fire.
Falcon Nova Incendiary
Summoner G, 2452 BV2, 5/8/5, 182, ER PPC x1, ER Lar x1, SRM-4 x6, iHvy Sm x1
Elemental (Fire, AP Gauss) x5, 425 BV2
Black Lanner D, 1809 BV2, 7/11(14), 153, Pul Med x2, SRM-6 x2, ER Sm x2, MG x4, Fl x1
Elemental (Fire, AP Gauss) x5, 425 BV2
Hierofalcon B, 1737 BV2, 6/9/8, 144, ER Med x1, SRM-6 x6, ER Sm x2
Elemental (Fire, AP Gauss) x5, 425 BV2
Arctic Wolf II B, 1678 BV2, 7/11/7, 124, Pul Lar x1, SRM-4 x4, Pul Sm x1
Elemental (Fire, AP Gauss) x5, 425 BV2
Fire Falcon C, 1004 BV2, 8/12, 76, Pul Med x1, SRM-6 x2, ER Sm x1, Pul Sm x, MG x4
Elemental (Fire, AP Gauss) x5, 425 BV2
Total: 10,805 BV2
Again, you got an anchor in the Summoner, a couple jumpy flankers in the Heirofalcon and Arctic Wolf, and a couple speed demons in the Black Lanner and Fire Falcon. While closing, this nova can throw an ER PPC, an ER Large, and a Pulse Large. Once the speed demons and jumpers have gotten within running distance of 3 hexes from their opponents — maybe even in position for rear attacks — the trap is sprung. The nova rushes in, releases the Elementals (Fire), and unleashes 100 SRMs. That’s enough to max out the external heat on every enemy mech with infernos and still have standard SRMs left over for damage. Or to just throw a little over 100 points of potential damage and 50 potential crit rolls without infernos. Elementals (Fire) close for leg attacks once their SRMs (they add another 50 SRMs one time) are expended or swarm attacks if an enemy mech goes down. Your speed demons and jumpy flankers can use their extreme mobility to disengage if hit hard or caught in crossfire, or they can press the attack as needed, even trading opponents to keep their modifiers up. The Summoner is like a sweep unit following up to rapidly put down opponents that the other mechs and Elementals are having trouble with. They all have decent heat management, but the thin armor on the Arctic Wolf and Fire Falcon make this nova more vulnerable to damage than the other novas. But if your opponent is always on fire and firing less as a result, it may not matter much.
Salamanders can substitute for Elementals (Fire) to bring BV costs down:
Salamander BA x5, 245 BV2
There’s also other Summoner, Flamberge, and Mad Dog/Vulture configurations with massed standard SRMs that can substitute for the Summoner G if you prefer them:
Flamberge A, 2575 BV2, 4/6/5, 216, TC, ER PPC x1, Pul Lar x1, SRM-6 x4
Summoner Q, 2479 BV2, 5/8/5, 182, ER PPC x1, Pul Lar x1, iHvy Med x1, SRM-4 x6, iHvy Sm x1
Mad Dog A, 1923 BV2, 5/8, 163, ER PPC x1, LB-5, SRM-6 x6
Vulture Mk III A, 1880 BV2, 5/8, 182, Ultra-5 x2, Pul Med x2, SRM-6 x4
Vulture Mk IV Prime, 2110 BV2, 5/8, 201(241), ER PPC x1, LB-5 x1, SRM-6 x4, ER Pul Sm x2
Hope these novas help. Good luck!
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Thanks for the suggestions I will look into them all. The game itself has taken a backseat for the moment …we’ve been playing a bit of MWO (and I hate myself…. But it’s nice to drop with friends instead of solo :)
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What is our preferred Ursus and why do we like them? Eg. I like the original as a cheap mid range beat stick faster units like Arcas can use as anvils.
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I've always liked the original Ursus best. Cheap, durable, and reliable. Never been too impressed by the Ursus 2 or Ursus II.
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I like the Ursus II (I almost wrote 2 like a Surat). Can work as the little guy among a fast/JJ equipped assault star and also along with the 5/8/(5) heavies due to the boosted jump. 4/6/6 is a lot more likely to survive than 4/6 at 50 tons when clan tech is on the table.
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I add an Ursus II to my CHH "Scout" Star, a twin Arcas, I and II, and a pair of E grade Hellbringers.
TT
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We have access to the Wulfen now?
I think that’s relatively new
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Out of universe, maybe, but according to the MUL it's been available to the Dominion since its debut.
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The Wulfen has been on the Dominion RAT in FM:3145 in 2013.